I think one of the best solutions is to make the environment around a boss fight interesting. You can make the floor less flat and have more height variation. You can add moving blocks that can be climbed on. You can make parts of the floor not safe to stand on. And you can even make the boss itself a very tall structure that can be climbed. Some of the best platforming "boss fights" in Super Mario Galaxy 2 are the Prankster Comets. They transform a level into a completely different, more intense place. Sometimes, you are under a strict time limit and need to grab clocks for extra time. Sometimes, all the platforms move twice as fast. Sometimes you are chased by shadow Mario clones that follow your exact movements.
Yeah I totally agree with this and is sort of the point I was trying to get at with the sonic frontiers section (might not have been totally clear), that games bosses have such fun atmospheres and environments that I don’t mind it’s a complete change up from platforming
A metroidvania can be a platformer such as most metroid games but the main gameplay aspects that make a metroidvania a metroidvania is the exploration, becoming more powerful through finding abilities and combat
100% agree! There’s a definite focus elsewhere in most cases but you do get some super difficult platforming sections like in Hollowknight for example! (:
I do also prefer boss fights that use platforming skills, but I don't really like the chase method so much. I want to actually be fighting the boss, not running from it. A Hat in Time and (if you count that encounter in Chapter 6) Celeste have boss fights with attacks that ask you to use your platforming and maneuvering ability to do dodge attacks or traverse terrain and find openings to deal damage. You're still doing all the same jumping and dashing(in both games actually, now that I think about it), but they're being used to fight big enemies instead.
Yes! I’m also a big fan of those types of bosses! I do really like a hat in time for the most part but I still feel most of the bosses there were jump about a circular arena until an opening shows up, which to me feels a little too similar to a boom boom fight, just with added difficulty! I’m still waiting around to make progress and that’s what irks me about those fights, it’s defensive vs offensive! Celeste I admittedly actually really struggled to get into (I know that’s a gaming sin hahaha) but the boss encounters I did play there I did really like actually!(: Thanks for your thoughts! Super cool to hear!(:
@@CharlieAndLuke I guess you don't quite see it the same way I do, but what really helps A Hat in Time's bosses for me is how many opportunities you have to attack the bosses. It's usually so frequent that it almost felt to me like they weren't wait-for-opening fights, even though they technically were. The fight against the mafia boss is my least favorite specifically because it doesn't let you hit the boss most of the time that it's in range.
I don't feel like boss chases really are that good platforming bossfights, especially because, they're often just not fights lol. Like for NSMBWii and SM3DW, you just go through a level with a boss-shaped gimmick but that's not a fight at all, you only defeat Bowser by reaching the end, not by fighting it.
Totally valid! Can definitely see your point! I just personally feel that the “fights” themselves are always so lacklustre anyway that they don’t feel like fights anyway, jumping on someone’s head a few times doesn’t give any more combat vibes to me than hitting a switch to damage them with the environment and at least with the switch, I’m doing a cool cinematic chase sequence before hand! Thanks for watching and offering your thoughts! Always love reading these!(:
When I heard 'make the boss fight a platforming challenge', I immediately thought of Super Meat Boy and was kinda surprised it wasn't featured! Great videos btw :)
I personally disagree with your thesis since I see bossfights as you directly confronting an enemy, rather than having them only participate in a climactic platforming sequence, which feels like it just sidesteps the issue with more level, though I definitly agree it could be used more for variety or hype bosses up like the robot in Samus Returns. I also think you focused on Megaman's irrelevant boss weakness gimmick and Metroidvania level design too much and glossed over how they actually make great bosses by subverting the gameplay and redefining your abilities. In a level you use your mobility to get from platform to platform, but in these battles, you are using your mobility to AVOID objects instead as the boss fills the screen with projectiles and their own hitbox, and you have to find openings through them. I think those already have some peak 2D platforming bosses. Donkey Kong Country Returns had some bosses I really liked and it's neither a Metroidvania, nor do you attack by shooting, but I've seen other neat bosses in Tropical Freeze too. I suggest making another video about how to make good 3D platformer bosses though. Making platforming challenging and fun is a lot easier in 2D than in 3D, doubly so for bosses. Most attack patterns just boil down to jumping over shockwaves or simply moving around to avoid homing attacks.
Appreciate your opinion!! That is ultimately what it comes down to after all! Personally I’ve never really found any of the country bosses to be much fun which pains me to say bc I adore those games! Tropical freeze is ironically both my favourite country title and has my least favourite bosses in the series (the amount of hits is excessive imo and most of the time you’re waiting around to do damage). I think for me the biggest component is that I dislike “avoiding” and waiting to do damage Vs climbing a tower or chasing a boss down through level design which always feels like I’m progressing if that makes sense? It’s the act of being offensive vs defensive until their weakness shows then that feels less repetitive to me! Megamans weakness gimmick was always the most interesting part of his bosses to me, I felt it gave them a level of tactic other platformers lacked! Metroidvanias I agree already have some fantastic bosses though! They’re tricky to me bc as I allude to, the focus on those games is exploration/combat more than reaction based platforming anyway imo! I absolutely agree 3D games have it way harder, I think that’s why 3DW impressed me so much! For the most part 3D platformers have a super difficult time with bosses! Thanks so much for your thoughts! I love to hear what others think about game design so this was an awesome read!! Appreciate the video idea as well!(:
@@CharlieAndLuke Hm, so it's really a preference thing here. I was always someone who liked to play defensively. I guess I could still counter that in any 1v1 vanilla FIGHT, a platformer character's greatest asset will always be their agility to dodge attacks, while of course, when it comes to a parkour RACE, this agility will definitly get 'em first place and morph into something arguably offensive, covering their strengths in a more balanced way.
Ofc! The whole reason we make these is to prompt discussion! The coolest thing about game design and interpretation of media is that everyone will have a different way of seeing things! No reason to be mad at some feedback hahaha!
@@CharlieAndLuke You'd be in the vocal minority, though. Most people I know think it was a lazy rehash of NSMBW, with most preferring Ludwig because his fight is one of the few that DOESN'T ripoff that game.
I think one of the best solutions is to make the environment around a boss fight interesting. You can make the floor less flat and have more height variation. You can add moving blocks that can be climbed on. You can make parts of the floor not safe to stand on. And you can even make the boss itself a very tall structure that can be climbed.
Some of the best platforming "boss fights" in Super Mario Galaxy 2 are the Prankster Comets. They transform a level into a completely different, more intense place. Sometimes, you are under a strict time limit and need to grab clocks for extra time. Sometimes, all the platforms move twice as fast. Sometimes you are chased by shadow Mario clones that follow your exact movements.
Yeah I totally agree with this and is sort of the point I was trying to get at with the sonic frontiers section (might not have been totally clear), that games bosses have such fun atmospheres and environments that I don’t mind it’s a complete change up from platforming
You people are sleeping on super mario 3d land's final boss fight. That sense of finality was peak.
This video is very well made, I’m surprised you don’t have a larger audience already🔥
Thanks so much!! Super glad you enjoyed it!!(: very kind words!
A metroidvania can be a platformer such as most metroid games but the main gameplay aspects that make a metroidvania a metroidvania is the exploration, becoming more powerful through finding abilities and combat
100% agree! There’s a definite focus elsewhere in most cases but you do get some super difficult platforming sections like in Hollowknight for example! (:
I do also prefer boss fights that use platforming skills, but I don't really like the chase method so much. I want to actually be fighting the boss, not running from it. A Hat in Time and (if you count that encounter in Chapter 6) Celeste have boss fights with attacks that ask you to use your platforming and maneuvering ability to do dodge attacks or traverse terrain and find openings to deal damage. You're still doing all the same jumping and dashing(in both games actually, now that I think about it), but they're being used to fight big enemies instead.
Yes! I’m also a big fan of those types of bosses! I do really like a hat in time for the most part but I still feel most of the bosses there were jump about a circular arena until an opening shows up, which to me feels a little too similar to a boom boom fight, just with added difficulty! I’m still waiting around to make progress and that’s what irks me about those fights, it’s defensive vs offensive!
Celeste I admittedly actually really struggled to get into (I know that’s a gaming sin hahaha) but the boss encounters I did play there I did really like actually!(:
Thanks for your thoughts! Super cool to hear!(:
@@CharlieAndLuke I guess you don't quite see it the same way I do, but what really helps A Hat in Time's bosses for me is how many opportunities you have to attack the bosses. It's usually so frequent that it almost felt to me like they weren't wait-for-opening fights, even though they technically were. The fight against the mafia boss is my least favorite specifically because it doesn't let you hit the boss most of the time that it's in range.
I don't feel like boss chases really are that good platforming bossfights, especially because, they're often just not fights lol. Like for NSMBWii and SM3DW, you just go through a level with a boss-shaped gimmick but that's not a fight at all, you only defeat Bowser by reaching the end, not by fighting it.
Totally valid! Can definitely see your point!
I just personally feel that the “fights” themselves are always so lacklustre anyway that they don’t feel like fights anyway, jumping on someone’s head a few times doesn’t give any more combat vibes to me than hitting a switch to damage them with the environment and at least with the switch, I’m doing a cool cinematic chase sequence before hand!
Thanks for watching and offering your thoughts! Always love reading these!(:
@@CharlieAndLuke, eh I'm not defending the bad "jump on the head and wait then repeat three times" and other variations of that either. X^)
When I heard 'make the boss fight a platforming challenge', I immediately thought of Super Meat Boy and was kinda surprised it wasn't featured! Great videos btw :)
Great video!
Celeste does an excellet job with boss fights being the platforming itself. I would highly reccommed if you havent played.
I hope in sonic frontiers update 3 give a fantastic final boss.
I really hope so!! The End sucked dude
@@CharlieAndLukeIts almost time!
I personally disagree with your thesis since I see bossfights as you directly confronting an enemy, rather than having them only participate in a climactic platforming sequence, which feels like it just sidesteps the issue with more level, though I definitly agree it could be used more for variety or hype bosses up like the robot in Samus Returns.
I also think you focused on Megaman's irrelevant boss weakness gimmick and Metroidvania level design too much and glossed over how they actually make great bosses by subverting the gameplay and redefining your abilities. In a level you use your mobility to get from platform to platform, but in these battles, you are using your mobility to AVOID objects instead as the boss fills the screen with projectiles and their own hitbox, and you have to find openings through them. I think those already have some peak 2D platforming bosses.
Donkey Kong Country Returns had some bosses I really liked and it's neither a Metroidvania, nor do you attack by shooting, but I've seen other neat bosses in Tropical Freeze too.
I suggest making another video about how to make good 3D platformer bosses though. Making platforming challenging and fun is a lot easier in 2D than in 3D, doubly so for bosses. Most attack patterns just boil down to jumping over shockwaves or simply moving around to avoid homing attacks.
Appreciate your opinion!! That is ultimately what it comes down to after all!
Personally I’ve never really found any of the country bosses to be much fun which pains me to say bc I adore those games! Tropical freeze is ironically both my favourite country title and has my least favourite bosses in the series (the amount of hits is excessive imo and most of the time you’re waiting around to do damage).
I think for me the biggest component is that I dislike “avoiding” and waiting to do damage Vs climbing a tower or chasing a boss down through level design which always feels like I’m progressing if that makes sense?
It’s the act of being offensive vs defensive until their weakness shows then that feels less repetitive to me!
Megamans weakness gimmick was always the most interesting part of his bosses to me, I felt it gave them a level of tactic other platformers lacked!
Metroidvanias I agree already have some fantastic bosses though! They’re tricky to me bc as I allude to, the focus on those games is exploration/combat more than reaction based platforming anyway imo!
I absolutely agree 3D games have it way harder, I think that’s why 3DW impressed me so much! For the most part 3D platformers have a super difficult time with bosses!
Thanks so much for your thoughts! I love to hear what others think about game design so this was an awesome read!! Appreciate the video idea as well!(:
@@CharlieAndLuke
Woah! Thanks for the positive reaction 😮, I was pretty critical after all.🤭
@@CharlieAndLuke
Hm, so it's really a preference thing here. I was always someone who liked to play defensively.
I guess I could still counter that in any 1v1 vanilla FIGHT, a platformer character's greatest asset will always be their agility to dodge attacks, while of course, when it comes to a parkour RACE, this agility will definitly get 'em first place and morph into something arguably offensive, covering their strengths in a more balanced way.
Ofc! The whole reason we make these is to prompt discussion! The coolest thing about game design and interpretation of media is that everyone will have a different way of seeing things! No reason to be mad at some feedback hahaha!
171 subs this man could not be more underrated
Bless you!! We appreciate you!(:
Awesome video
Thank you so much!! Glad you enjoyed it(:
10:22 You've never played NSMB2, did you?
I have! I’d still argue it was the best bit of that game because that game just wasn’t very good lmao
@@CharlieAndLuke You'd be in the vocal minority, though.
Most people I know think it was a lazy rehash of NSMBW, with most preferring Ludwig because his fight is one of the few that DOESN'T ripoff that game.
Based ❤
No u