The biggest problem I see with reloaders and Hand loaders, is matching the correct bullet weight to their specific twist rate. “Someone” should do an in depth video on common calibers, weights and twist rates. HINT HINT
By just screwing the size die in until it hits the shell holder and cams over as you put it, you are pushing the shoulder back too far. Normally, you would use a fire formed case to set your size die so you are bumping the shoulder only .001" to .002".
@@davidmarshall8628 Of course, using the headspace comparator to select the correct shell holder is the method I use and normally try to get a 0.002” shoulder bump. I’ve never had an issue with chambering when using this method and always get consistent shoulder bump.
My experience has been that the most foolproof way to get extremely low runout is to first use a standard full length, non-bushing die with the expander ball removed, then follow it up with a separate mandrel die to set final neck tension. Have done this on multiple different calibers, with multiple different die sets and different reloading presses and it always has made very low runout ammo. Doesn't matter if the die floats or is locked down tight, even a progressive press can make very straight ammo with this approach.
You nailed it bratha!!! Get rid of that dang expander ball!!!! I use a Redding body die and bump the shoulders 2grand and then use a mandrel on the neck. 😉 obviously quality brass helps to like Lapua, Norma or Lake City match brass
You can get better runout results with the RCBS FL die by raising the expander ball, easy to do because of the fully threaded expander rod. This enables the case to be supported by the die as the neck is pulled over the expander. You won't be able to punch out the spent primer though. Big deal. That's what decapping dies are for. Forster fl dies already feature a raised expander. Even better: use a Redding body die for the shoulder and a Lee Neck Collet die.
If you use a neck bushing die, you need to use SAC neck rings to minimize runout. They have a bevel that allows the ring to center over the case neck instead of pulling the neck out of alignment like other bushings do.
If you have varying neckwall thickness, you can get concentric ammo with a mandrel, but the concentricity gauge will pick up that varying thickness until you turn the neck.
The best thing for a new handloader to do is grab a good reloading manual, and go through the section where they outline the steps on how to handload. Acquire a good understanding of what it is to make good safe handloads. Realize that you can get it done with a simple set, like the RCBS supreme reloading kit. Start out on a single stage, and become proficient. Use a powder measure, beam scale and trickler. Learn how to properly prep your brass, that is every bit as important as loading good straight ammo. Learn to be efficient, safe, consistent and always "work up your load" and you'll be golden...
And yet the most accomplished long range competitors in the world say runout is unimportant and they don't measure it as part of their competition ammo process.
I'm inclined to believe with the components they use, and the equipment and loading technique they use, their cartridges come out pretty damn straight whether they check for it or not.
@davidmarshall8628 You would be surprised about a few things. Annealing is a must. Sizing on a Dillon 750, full length bushing die, and followed by a mandrel to set neck tension. Clean the lube off, some tumble, some use a rag. Trim, chamfer, and prime. Primer seating depth matters. Weigh powder to the kernel. Seat bullet with something that gives feedback as to consistent seating force. As far as runout goes, a match chamber has 0.0005 clearance in the throat, so the bullet will align when the bolt closes. There are things we do to make our guns shoot at distance, but runout is not one of them.
@@codyway7424 It would be an interesting blind test. You assemble 100 rounds. A different party measures runout and segregates the batch. You shoot the segregated sets, not knowing which is which. Compare the targets.
@davidmarshall8628 f-class john and winning in the wind have put up videos on shooting various runout at distance. It has to be pretty terrible before it matters. But then, you are probably introducing seating depth variance
Forget minimal runout. It's not worth the time. Trust me. I've been down the road over and over for 36 years now spending a fortune on loading equipment. I had a conversation with Boots Obermeyer about 25 years ago who stated to me that his best group with his segrated batch of ammo at a 600 yard competition surprised him. The "cull" ammo, which had the most runout, shot his best group ever. Erik Cortina stated he doesn't check runout anymore. I stopped checking with my Sinclair guage about 15 years ago. Consistent neck tension and annealling after every shot is far more important. I'm just trying to save you some time and effort over something that is definitely not worth your time. I have found that excellent barrels and actions and a top tier rifle builder and a well cut chamber with a top tier reamer can control "bad ammo" just fine
Arbor press and LE Wilson Micrometer seating dies! .001 under caliber diameter expander mandrel to set final neck tension. 21st century mandrels. For your 7prc, .283 mandrel.
@@josephr2766 I have tried both and with bushing die I had very little difference with neck turned brass. I assume a mandrel pushing out the variance to the outside and then neck turning would be the best results for neck turning.
I would like to see a case with 2 to 3000s of run-out ran out of a RCBS die. Then ran through the Forster die to see if it’s gets better. Is it the die? If they’re both run through the same press, then it will not be the press if it doesn’t get much better than one thing I have heard is that your Lapua brass is more consistent on neck thickness. I would like to see if that’s true thank you for everything you put out there.
People really go down the rabbit hole on this. Only because they don't know what they are doing. A plain Jane RCBS FL die set will produce very minimal runout. It's all in the quality of the brass and the die settings. I'm not saying you have to use Lapua brass either, because you don't. All of my ammo is consistently less than .003" TIR. Make sure you use a concentricity gauge when you're setting up your dies. There are tricks there, and you don't have to go crazy over it. Be sure to check you loaded ammo for runout. Some guys will check their brass, and then when they seat the bullet, runout is higher. Remember it's the finished product you are concerned about. I didn't see you spin your finished round. Don't be bashful, those should all be sub .003" TIR. And yes, a good "hunting" rifle can shoot sub 1" groups at 400 yards. If I had a place to set up a target at 800 yards, I'd be right there with you, shooting those sub 2" groups. I shoot steel out to 1,400 yards, and can tell you that runout is a major contributor to getting the best accuracy out of your rifle.
I agree with this. I was getting poor runout with a Lee 243 die and purchased a new standard RCBS die set. My runout improved on average to under .001", but when seating the seeds I'd get some good ones and some as much as .004 - .005". If they don't go in straight the seating pressure will change your neck dimensions.
I’ve been enjoying your content but this is a rabbit hole for most reloaders and hunters. You have a new guy in the comments thinking this important to him. It’s not. Get a 3/4 moa gun and go how to read wind and make shots in that. The only way you’re going to get .25 moa is the barrel your custom guy gives you. I get that you’re challenging yourself, but you’re confusing that new guy. Runout means nothing to the normal hunter.
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The biggest problem I see with reloaders and Hand loaders, is matching the correct bullet weight to their specific twist rate. “Someone” should do an in depth video on common calibers, weights and twist rates. HINT HINT
By just screwing the size die in until it hits the shell holder and cams over as you put it, you are pushing the shoulder back too far. Normally, you would use a fire formed case to set your size die so you are bumping the shoulder only .001" to .002".
Yep. Setting a sizing die that way without knowing what it's doing re shoulder setback is definitely not the way to fly.
If using the Redding competition shellholders, you can adjust to cam over and get the correct shoulder bump.
@@keithbeddingfield157 Quite true, but proper measurements should be taken to know the correct result is being achieved.
@@davidmarshall8628 Of course, using the headspace comparator to select the correct shell holder is the method I use and normally try to get a 0.002” shoulder bump. I’ve never had an issue with chambering when using this method and always get consistent shoulder bump.
My experience has been that the most foolproof way to get extremely low runout is to first use a standard full length, non-bushing die with the expander ball removed, then follow it up with a separate mandrel die to set final neck tension. Have done this on multiple different calibers, with multiple different die sets and different reloading presses and it always has made very low runout ammo. Doesn't matter if the die floats or is locked down tight, even a progressive press can make very straight ammo with this approach.
You nailed it bratha!!! Get rid of that dang expander ball!!!! I use a Redding body die and bump the shoulders 2grand and then use a mandrel on the neck. 😉 obviously quality brass helps to like Lapua, Norma or Lake City match brass
You can get better runout results with the RCBS FL die by raising the expander ball, easy to do because of the fully threaded expander rod. This enables the case to be supported by the die as the neck is pulled over the expander. You won't be able to punch out the spent primer though. Big deal. That's what decapping dies are for.
Forster fl dies already feature a raised expander.
Even better: use a Redding body die for the shoulder and a Lee Neck Collet die.
If you use a neck bushing die, you need to use SAC neck rings to minimize runout. They have a bevel that allows the ring to center over the case neck instead of pulling the neck out of alignment like other bushings do.
Great vid!
As are the rest of your vids.
Hope you go ahead and do a series on your new 28 Nosler and other rifles in the future..
Thanks
If you have varying neckwall thickness, you can get concentric ammo with a mandrel, but the concentricity gauge will pick up that varying thickness until you turn the neck.
What runout gauge are you using?
A series would help me alot being fairly new to reloading.
The best thing for a new handloader to do is grab a good reloading manual, and go through the section where they outline the steps on how to handload. Acquire a good understanding of what it is to make good safe handloads. Realize that you can get it done with a simple set, like the RCBS supreme reloading kit. Start out on a single stage, and become proficient. Use a powder measure, beam scale and trickler. Learn how to properly prep your brass, that is every bit as important as loading good straight ammo. Learn to be efficient, safe, consistent and always "work up your load" and you'll be golden...
Check run out after fire formed in the new rifle before resize and see what it is.
And yet the most accomplished long range competitors in the world say runout is unimportant and they don't measure it as part of their competition ammo process.
I'm inclined to believe with the components they use, and the equipment and loading technique they use, their cartridges come out pretty damn straight whether they check for it or not.
@davidmarshall8628 You would be surprised about a few things. Annealing is a must. Sizing on a Dillon 750, full length bushing die, and followed by a mandrel to set neck tension. Clean the lube off, some tumble, some use a rag. Trim, chamfer, and prime. Primer seating depth matters. Weigh powder to the kernel. Seat bullet with something that gives feedback as to consistent seating force.
As far as runout goes, a match chamber has 0.0005 clearance in the throat, so the bullet will align when the bolt closes.
There are things we do to make our guns shoot at distance, but runout is not one of them.
@@codyway7424 It would be an interesting blind test. You assemble 100 rounds. A different party measures runout and segregates the batch. You shoot the segregated sets, not knowing which is which. Compare the targets.
@davidmarshall8628 f-class john and winning in the wind have put up videos on shooting various runout at distance. It has to be pretty terrible before it matters. But then, you are probably introducing seating depth variance
Forget minimal runout. It's not worth the time. Trust me. I've been down the road over and over for 36 years now spending a fortune on loading equipment. I had a conversation with Boots Obermeyer about 25 years ago who stated to me that his best group with his segrated batch of ammo at a 600 yard competition surprised him. The "cull" ammo, which had the most runout, shot his best group ever. Erik Cortina stated he doesn't check runout anymore. I stopped checking with my Sinclair guage about 15 years ago. Consistent neck tension and annealling after every shot is far more important. I'm just trying to save you some time and effort over something that is definitely not worth your time. I have found that excellent barrels and actions and a top tier rifle builder and a well cut chamber with a top tier reamer can control "bad ammo" just fine
Arbor press and LE Wilson Micrometer seating dies! .001 under caliber diameter expander mandrel to set final neck tension. 21st century mandrels. For your 7prc, .283 mandrel.
I may have missed it, are you neck turning before using a bushing die?
@@josephr2766 I have tried both and with bushing die I had very little difference with neck turned brass. I assume a mandrel pushing out the variance to the outside and then neck turning would be the best results for neck turning.
bullet runout doesn't matter. im gonna have to make a video of the test I did that proves it.
I would like to see a case with 2 to 3000s of run-out ran out of a RCBS die. Then ran through the Forster die to see if it’s gets better. Is it the die? If they’re both run through the same press, then it will not be the press if it doesn’t get much better than one thing I have heard is that your Lapua brass is more consistent on neck thickness. I would like to see if that’s true thank you for everything you put out there.
Good video, but clean up those spent primers. Dang.
People really go down the rabbit hole on this. Only because they don't know what they are doing. A plain Jane RCBS FL die set will produce very minimal runout. It's all in the quality of the brass and the die settings. I'm not saying you have to use Lapua brass either, because you don't. All of my ammo is consistently less than .003" TIR. Make sure you use a concentricity gauge when you're setting up your dies. There are tricks there, and you don't have to go crazy over it. Be sure to check you loaded ammo for runout. Some guys will check their brass, and then when they seat the bullet, runout is higher. Remember it's the finished product you are concerned about. I didn't see you spin your finished round. Don't be bashful, those should all be sub .003" TIR. And yes, a good "hunting" rifle can shoot sub 1" groups at 400 yards. If I had a place to set up a target at 800 yards, I'd be right there with you, shooting those sub 2" groups. I shoot steel out to 1,400 yards, and can tell you that runout is a major contributor to getting the best accuracy out of your rifle.
I agree with this. I was getting poor runout with a Lee 243 die and purchased a new standard RCBS die set. My runout improved on average to under .001", but when seating the seeds I'd get some good ones and some as much as .004 - .005". If they don't go in straight the seating pressure will change your neck dimensions.
I’ve been enjoying your content but this is a rabbit hole for most reloaders and hunters. You have a new guy in the comments thinking this important to him. It’s not. Get a 3/4 moa gun and go how to read wind and make shots in that. The only way you’re going to get .25 moa is the barrel your custom guy gives you. I get that you’re challenging yourself, but you’re confusing that new guy. Runout means nothing to the normal hunter.
No annealing won't help!