Those are my top two best, although eventually we're going to have to start talking about Prof if he keeps coming out with bangers, but when folks talk about the goat they're talking about how "big" they are. My homicidal thoughts started to go down when I realized that great used to mean very large so Muhammad Ali was never saying that he's the best boxer of all time He's saying that he's the largest boxing figure of all time which is accurate. Tupac or snoop if we're being honest or Eminem is the greatest rapper of all time because of the space they take up in the culture, not just because they are amazing rappers.
There is literally no question it’s Aesop. I’m claiming white privilege here. El P may be a bigger influencer of the Culture. But there is no white rapper who has dug deeper into his own culture, exploring, exposing, and transforming the white experience within hiphop. And line for line, no white rapper remotely approaches him. He has to be put next to Lupe or MF. #facts
Eyedea was amazing. The most memorable show I ever went to was him leading a 2hr all improve set to a crowd of 20 at Cabooze. It was equal parts hip hop, jazz, and slam poetry. All done for the joy of doing it and $5 a head from those that braved the snowstorm. He might have been known popularly for his battle rap skills, but his best work wasn't done slinging attacks. It was when he brought artists together in his community to make magic. Rip Eyedea
Eyedea is the most insane actual off the top freestyler I've ever heard. Look up on here Eyedea and Slug on Sways show. Crazy shit. And yeah I think eyedea didn't even particularly like the battle rap scene .. he just happened to be good at it lol Like his actual albums lotta the songs aren't really battle rap or talking shit.
@@0oidiedinatimemachineo024 not only could he do these crazy stream of consciousness freestyles, he could switch up his flow while doing them. He and the band would all take turns bouncing off each other, sending each other new melodies or rhythms to play off of. So he wouldn't just freestyle, he would freestyle in the style of the trombone solo that just went before him.
His actual lyrics on Birth of a Fish and By the Throat were at times extremely profound. Songs like Skydiver or Color My World Mine. He also had a ton of other experimental projects that were absurdly creative, like face candy and Oliver Hart.
Aesop Rock will always be my favorite rapper period. I'm not black or white (I'm Native and Hispanic) and his art resonates for me the most as far as lyrics/ content, production, creativity, the progression of his production and willingness to push himself out of his bounds each project,, not to mention he's been going in on all types of shadowwork before it was popular. Been listening for going on 24 years and every new project he's released is my favorite. Aes goes deep, I wish more people would be brave enough to take their art there ❤ but yes if it wasn't for El-P we may never known any of the names we do today. He had a huge impact on a critical era of hip-hop that I wish got more recognition. But at the same time, I listen to who resonates and never cared about popularity/likes/streams/followers, etc. I don't participate in these Eminem conversations.. everyone is gonna have their favorite rapper, its subjective and the conversation is played out. There is no best in any genre, only different flavors and some people have a clear favorite, some people like em all and its all fine either way.
Aesop is my favorite, too. Unfortunately he hasn't had much of an influence on the larger hip-hop scene, for much the same reason that Slug, Murs, and MF Doom didn't. It's an industry. It's really all about money. And Aesop in particular is openly antagonistic of the music industry, to the point where he often actively shuns stardom. For a moment it looked like The Impossible Kid was going to be for him what Good News For People Who Love Bad News did for Modest Mouse, propelling him from "indie" to mainstream superstardom, but it didn't. And I think it's because he goes out of his way to duck the spotlights. "Cameras or guns, one of y'all is gonna shoot me to death."
I love the albums but at this point it's almost to their detriment. The first album had A Christmas Fucking Myrical and I don't think they've replicated that energy where it starts out slow and builds from verse to verse since. Maybe I forgot some songs but they could mix it up just a bit more imo.
Yeah, if he isn't hitting a certain energy, he isn't hitting at all. I'm just waiting for him to fuck up and swear on a record, like we used to do with Kirk Franklin.
Love that you shouted out ‘I’ll Sleep When You’re Dead’- I don’t hear people give that one nearly enough shine for how rawly creative it is. To this day I’m floored that anybody got Cedric and Omar from The Mars Volta on a hip-hop song, and that’s a prime reason as to why El-P is in this conversation
I think his writing deserves plenty of attention too, and wish you had talked about it a bit. Definitely has a distinct style that makes him stand out. He has some of the most creative and memorable punchlines and analogies, that are often equally hilarious, absurd, and obscene. He can play with internal vowel rhymes like DOOM writing a tongue twister, and then get serious with verses that feel more like dark poetry. It's an often twisty, atypical approach, and every new verse he records feels unpredictable and surprising.
@@jbc5099 I definitely prefer him haha. Eminem wins in technical categories, but that doesn't make him any more fun to listen to usually. EL-P didn't worry about being as fast or precise, it's more about feeling out the verse.
One of my favourite El-P verses is on Population Control, and his rhymes are so sparse and oddly placed throughout the verse, but the lyricism and delivery are so sharp, it works.
@@fyoutube2294 prove it is false. Eminem's biggest moments in the last decade were yet again a song for his mom, fighting in the mud with Machine Gun Kelly (a rapper WAY under his league), the "that's an awfully hot coffee pot" freestyle, and two divisive doubtful quality albums.
@@necromax13 doesn’t sound like you’d take the discussion in good faith but sure. He had a lot to say in that bet freestyle- which was good despite what people say because his goal wasnt to rap a crazy freestyle but to stand for something he believes in. In Mmlp2 he had already solved his issues and it was still great. Kamikaze was dope, Darkness was a great song and he bodied mgk without trying. Just some bullet points off the top of my head. But you’ll probably just disagree with every single one which is fine- I can’t “prove” an opinion. Compared to someone who actually has nothing to say (like ye or wayne) he definitely has a lot to say; not as poignant as before but its still there. If you think the albums suck then thats fine as they aren’t great albums for the most part but he has stuff to say still that he cares about and do matter in the world and music scene
@@fyoutube2294 I do take the argument in good faith, it's just that there's nothing to argue about. All he has is his over elaborated lyricism and gimmicky wordplay, because the content, production, or mass appeal (let's be honest, eminem's name is still what draws people in) isn't there.
@@necromax13 well, did you read the rest of my comment? I covered everything you just said. You’re right, Eminem’s name alone will move units despite the work being good or not
Oh my god, this is amazing. I went to look at a few NF videos to see what he was all about (you were right, he's just like you said), and I shit you not, this was one of the top comments served to me: "I've never listened to rap beside some Eminem, but I'm absolutely in love with NF. I tell everyone that HOPE is one of the greatest songs for me in history! What other song has this intensity, lyrics, interpretation, energy, piano and orchestra along with rap? None." I can't make this up. It's like a microcosm of everything you said in the longer video on the main channel. I don't get why someone would have the confidence to say that no other hip hop is like that when they in the same comment admit that they don't listen to any hip hop. EM really breeds this typ of listener and I'm starting to see why so many people think he's the GOAT.
As someone who was, and had been a hip hop fan for a decade, when "My name is" came out on MTV, I already knew what was going to happen watching the aftermath of that song. Soon, all kinds of non hip hop fans, 100% of them white - was "listening to hip hop" and naming Eminem as the "greatest of all time" but none of them could name more than 5 rappers. And that shit festered for over a decade, and is why so many (mostly white) people name Eminem the GOAT.
I'm an Aesop Rock guy. In my first exposure to Aesop Rock's music, I had no idea he was white. In fact, I didn't even HEAR his music at first. At my college, one of the art students had painted an enormous five-foot tall portrait called "6B Panorama", titled after Aesop's song. I had never heard of Aesop at the time. The song is a list of all the images that Aesop saw while sitting on his fire escape, and the painting was a huge cityscape that essentially served as an enormous "Where's Waldo" with the song's lyrics hung next to the painting. I stood staring at this painting for a solid half-hour, not just to find every image from the lyrics, but just to soak up the imagery and poetry of the whole thing. I was almost moved to tears when I read the line "I saw a roof garden on the apartment across the street, and kick myself, because somewhere along the way I lost my seeds". That, to me, was the perfect representation of what it takes to fully appreciate Aesop's work (or at least his good stuff, when he's not re-remaking Bazooka Tooth). His imagery is too densely layered to soak it all in at once; you need to listen to it multiple times to get an idea of the full picture he's trying to paint. To this day, I've only really devoted that kind of time to two of his albums ("Float" and "Labor" as well as the Fast Cars EP) as well as the song "None Shall Pass". Keep meaning to dive deeper into his other stuff. To circle back to the thesis of the main video: are there any black artists that do what Aesop Rock does that I just haven't heard of? I'd be fascinated to check them out, if so.
Great to hear some love for I'll Sleep When Your Dead, such a criminally underrated album. When I first heard Habeas Corpses as a 15 year old kid who was into sci-fi, it blew my mind. You mean you can build entire dystopian future worlds in a single rap song? I later learned he was far from the first, but what an introduction. Anyone looking for more info should check out his 'What Had Happened Was' interview series with Open Mike Eagle. They go super in depth about the Company Flow/Cannibal Ox era
Dude me too. When I was 15 as well I decided to get into hip hop and I first stumbled into Deltron 3030, then went to Dr Octagon, and tried to google what's next and come up with El-P's I'll Sleep When You're Dead. As a kid that was obsessed with Sci-Fi, specifically Philip K Dick at the time, when he made a PKD reference it was like the Leo pointing at the screen meme. It was this holy shit moment of finding music that felt like it was tuned into all the things that mattered to me, including the anti-Bush politics. And then the production, it was everything I was into at the time. A little experimental, a lot dystopian, and strongly thematic. I was way into all of this weird, dark electronic music and it was tuned into my station.
One of the missing pieces hinted in the video is Jason DeMarco. He's the producer at adult swim credited with linking El-P and Mike together to form RTJ. He also co-created Toonami which has had a significant influence in the culture as well.
Agreed with everything you said. One thing I really appreciate about El-P is his focused anger. He's not necessarily a political rapper per se but he communicates a sense of horror at the state of the world, and he does it with a good alternation of irony, humour and sincerity. It's not surprising that he collabed with Zach de la Rocha for RTJ, although ZdlR is definitely more explicit about his political ideology.
Though of course one of the devastating battle rap lines Slug suffered was Sage Francis asking him what he's gonna do when his fans find out he's not white. Granted, half the point of that line is a direct intersection with the fact that societally he's still effectively white to most people…
Sarai is another great white rapper unfortunately she didn't get enough praise and was labeled "Female Eminem" and it ruined her career And you listen to her most popular song "Ladies" you'll notice Cardi B , Nicki Minaj, Fergie, Iggy , Beyonce and Meg the stallion took her style and added to their own flavors to it No female artist at the time was rapping about what she was rapping about
El-P's verse on Christmas Fucking Miracle legitimately makes me feel like a better world is possible in a way that pretty much no other song does. I actually only started checking out his solo stuff with any sort of fervor after watching your Eminem video. Nice to see Eyedea mentioned, his death hit me like Mac Miller's seemed to hit the wider world. Even Shadows Have Shadows was my number one song to get sad drunk to as a teen. My 'favorite' white rapper (Astronautalis) unfortunately ended up being a sex pest so I've abstained from listening to him. Last thing I wanna say on a tangentially related note (rapper but not white) is check out Ceschi Ramos, his versatility and messaging blow me away.
When does he talk about El-P? I gave up after the first 10 mins was spent talking about his delusional conspiracy theory that medicines made for humans are actually hOrSe mEdiCiNe
That is a great verse, but I have to say that in my mind, the undisputed best RTJ El-P verse is his incredible bars on "Don't Get Captured", which I find to have even eclipsed killer mike on. Also I want to mention his verse on "Thursday in the Danger Room", but Mike's verse on that song just destroyed so hard it doesn't stand out as much.
I didn't really get into El-P until about 2020 when RTJ4 came out and that was amazing for me. If you want to see just how cool this dude is watch the Run the Jewels Tiny Desk Concert. A few times Killer Mike either forgets or messes up his lyrics and El-P doesn't miss a beat and raps Killer Mike's verses and brings him back. Doesn't even hesitate. Oh, also, thanks for your content in general man. I usually don't comment, but I generally love your takes and pretty much everything. Your takes are well thought out. Keep doing what you are doing.
Yes, well articulated - I have a lot of time for El-P - he's definitely invested heavily in the careers of others (I saw him perform live as the hype man for Aesop Rock) and his partnership with Killer Mike has transformed El's cynicism into something more laser-focused, self-deprecating and prophetic. My personal vote for REAL greatest white rapper of all time would go to the indomitable DoseOne with Aesop Rock a close 2nd. An aside: El-P and Eminem both appeared on the Soundbombing 2 album in 1999 released by Rawkus, the same label that put out Funcrusher Plus.
When does he talk about El-P? I gave up after the first 10 mins was spent talking about his delusional conspiracy theory that medicines made for humans are actually hOrSe mEdiCiNe
"but im not afraid of twelve year olds" - a braver man than me, twelve year olds are just getting incisive and empathetic enough for real cruelty and they revel in that new power, im terrofied of twelve year olds
His Rhythm Roulette episode low key showed how much of a monster he is in a studio. Most people in that series will make a beat with a sample off one or maybe two of the blind picked albums. Hung over as hell El P didn't realize that was an option and found things to use on all 3 to put together into something dope.
EL-P is my favorite musician across any genre, but honestly, I was never impressed by his Rhythem Roulette episode. To me, it sounded like he was so ashamed of the samples he wound up with, he built a beat over it to hide the samples as much as possible, rather than making a beat where the samples and original composition compliment each other. Not to say the end beat was bad, but I've heard far, far better from EL. To each his own though
@@MrShaiya96 Have you listened to it? Sage Francis is solid, but a cursory glance at this Sadistik guy isn't impressing me. What do you recommend beyond Russian Roulette? I'll add: El-P's ability as a lyrical technician is solid but not quite top tier. What sets him apart, though, is his combination of being good-but-not-quite-great in that regard, but also being a great storyteller and producer; listen to the four and a half minute sci-fi vignette of Habeas Corpses and tell me I'm wrong. If you look at him in any particular aspect he might be overshadowed by guys like MF DOOM as far as nuance, by Aesop Rock in terms of technicality, or someone like Sage Francis when it comes to battle rap or freestyle, but if you look at El as an all-arounder there aren't many rappers who stack up to him, imo.
El-P is a good choice; RTJ is great, Mike's weird flirts with right-libertarianism notwithstanding. Oh, El-P stepped on my foot once. That's my claim to fame.
Been saying this for years 😂😂 His impact on underground hip-hop is just unmatched and unlike a lot of white rappers, his space in the hip hop culture doesn't feel forced or unnatural. He's there because it is what he loves, not for a paycheck. Besides his cultural impacts his flows are genuinelly some of the most creative and mind boggling flows in rap. His production is unparalleled too. Easily in my top 3 of all time. Love your videos man, keep up the good work!
People complaining about the ad 1. You can skip it 2. It has time stamps 3. Its actually useful info for an ad( unlike a lot of ads on RUclips) 4. You can skip it 5. You can skip it
Man that era of 2005-2012 ug off kilter hip hop was so influential for me. Being introduced to El-p as well as Aesop Rock, weatherman, cage, Murs, eyedea and abilities, Scarub, Living Legends etc really opened the doors into different channels of underground hip hop. I know that list is largely white nerd / abstract niche but it showed me the channels to discover other areas of underground hip hop with deeper black roots like cannabis, souls of mischief, gravediggaz, hieroglyphics etc. Great time for music!
The Rock the Bells era basically! Mr Lif, Visionaries, C Rayz Walz, Apathy, Celph Titled, Brother Ali, The Grouch, Zion I... Sooo many artists in this group of hip-hop
@@visual_bored omg I went to rock the bells one year, it was awesome. I also went to "Paid Dues" festival that apparently Murs funded completely out of pocket and avoided corporate sponsorship so he could make it his own. The definition of independent artist.
I’m by NO means a hip hop nerd. I’m a white lady from the suburbs. But I’ll Sleep When You’re Dead is one of my favourite albums ever and Run the Jewels is peppered through some of my playlists. I’m forever grateful to the housemate I had in college who introduced me to El-P.
As a HUGE fan of both your work and Dead End Hip Hop, PLEASE have a conversation/video with Myke C-Town!!! 🙏 I feel your guys’ tastes & personalities would blend sooooo well together!!
I have been having this debate with Eminem Stans for as long as they've been saying Em is the greatest of all time. I can't tell you how stoked I am that you did this video. Thank you. You've really been on a roll.
Y'know, i personally put Em in my #1, but i gotta admit, most Eminem fams are cancer. They can't swallow the fact that someone might not like the album that you like. But to be fair, when you have the biggest fanbase in hiphop, you will have the most stupid people.
As a PR old head from NYC during the rise, I always gotta drop in on these takes. You've introduced me to a couple things that hit my stubborn a-- blind spots.
Hola amigo soy un gringo Que habla español y he escrito muchas canciones en español y espero que eso animan otros gringos a aprender español y hacer amistades con los latinos en su barrio necesitamos más unidad respeto hermano
i got into El-P from playing Tony Hawk's Underground and American Wasteland. Heard him with Mr Lif on "Phantom" and then later on on AW with "Jukie Skate Rock" Fell in love and have been a fan since. Every time someone tells me I need sleep, I say "I'll sleep when you're dead" to reference that album. Great video! loving the content.
No arguments here. I actually saw Run the Jewels in my city. They were amazing, even though El P kept forgetting what city he was in. Also, man, all those rappers you named reminded me of my latter days in high school when I moved past Eminem and Nu Metal into a bunch of indie rap.
I'm glad you referred to Slug from Atmosphere, though he had said in interviews he considers himself mixed ethnicity (because his father is Black and Indigenous American) even though he doesn't look mixed ethnicity. (He pretty much is whyte passing, not saying that as a slam, I like Atmosphere's music) He also spoke on how the industry wanted to make him the next big whyte rapper back in the early 2000s.
What's crazy is that I think Slug *could've* been the next big white rapper of the 2000's (possibly the biggest) if he had decided to go in that lane. A complex but still easygoing lyricist and a helluva lot more photogenic than most of the other underground rap dudes of his day. His music didn't have the "scaring the hoes" setback that everyone clowns on Em for. But I respect him for sticking to his guns and remaining independent.
One of my favourite things about El P is besides being integral to a lot of scenes and some of the best artists as you note and being a phenomenal performer in his own right [getting to see him live when RTJ did their first tour of Australia was amazing]... he is also the source of probably the best ever remix of a Nine Inch Nails song I've have ever heard. His version of Only is just amazingly atmospheric and the funny thing is it wasn't until years after I saw RTJ live that I even connected the dots.
I agree. If you're a true hip hop fan and you put Em in your top 50, you're giving him massive amounts of credit and hold massive respect for his music. Man gave Em his flowers just didn't want to give him GOAT status which is fair.
Another solid vid. I've always put EL-P and Aesop Rock over Eminem for damn near 20 years, so I appreciate you for making this. EL-P's beat making skills is also very, very underrated.
Man that Cold Vein was crazy good. I'll find myself putting on the instrumental version from time to time. That album will always hold a special place in my heart.
In fairness to Em, no one includes his production skills against him or for him in the greatest rapper debate. It's like including J Cole's in asking if he's the best rapper.
I nearly did a double take at your assertion that Eminem has made a lot of amazing beats as a producer - mostly because in and around discussion of Eminem and Shady records, Em's work as a producer (and to stay behind the boards doing it all himself) is often considered one of the big reasons he's stagnated so much in the 2010s. Folks have wanted Eminem to get out of Detroit and work with other people (or hell, just stick with Dre) - or hell, I'd be thrilled to see him around the Bruiser Brigade or Quelle Chris if he wants Detroit-centric producers - but he does SO much of it himself and so many of the beats feel simultaneously oversold and canned. And I remember that also being an issue with everyone who signed to Shady - it was an issue with Yelawolf, it was an issue with the wave of rappers coming up with him in the mid-2000s he tried to put on, and most glaringly it was an issue with Slaughterhouse, where the beats were going for a rock-inflected bombast for radio crossover in the early 2010s (which aged like ass, btw) that never really fit the group. Hell, folks might have a myriad number of issues with Joe Budden for... really, so much bullshit over the years, but he was right that the production behind Slaughterhouse on the Shady-backed records sounded like shit.
As often the case, Eminem’s beats are considered interesting in the first half of his career. The beats you’re referring to on his latter career and slaughterhouse’s albums aren’t really his beats. Theyre are beats he cosigned from someone else. That is to say, he has a bad EAR for picking bested from others. But his own beats are still pretty solid. Example: I Will(2020), Till I Colapse, Renegade, etc.
Eminem’s production in the early to mid 2000s was solid and consistent. TES, arguably his greatest album, is self produced. he still makes great beats from time to time but is very inconsistent and he did plague slaughterhouse with terrible production
Metalhead here! EL-P was my bridge into truly loving rap for the first time. Without him I never would have found and enjoyed Aesop Rock or Open Mike Eagle. Totally back this take.
I saw Run The Jewels in Atlanta on Inauguration Day 2017 and it was one of the most cathartic experiences I've ever had in my life. El-P seemed surprised about how hard the crowd was going too.
Even as a casual Em fan who was white and the perfect age to have my mind blown by his arrival, I always thought his albums only ever had 1 or 2 songs that really hit me as appropriate quality for his obvious skill-set.
@@slomo6054It really isn't, man. Let's just be objective. Do you honestly believe that songs like Stan, The Way I Am, and Criminal are of comparable quality to Amityville and Bitch Please 2? MMLP has classic level talent and some classic level tracks, but it's not a cover-to-cover classic. None of Em's work is cover-to-cover classic. He's a classic, genre-defining artist with classic tracks, but I don't think any of his records are classics. He misses too often, and he's definitely not the only hip hop giant to have that problem.
@@NJoCaulfield if we actually wanna be objective then SSLP, MMLP, and TES are 3 classics. they are unanimously considered as such in the rap genre. an album doesn’t have to have a flawless tracklist. Take TPAB, you aint gotta lie isn’t on the level of tracks like wesley’s theory or how much a dollar cost. albums like these are greater than the sum of their parts and are statements.
Even then that’s only his early stuff. I’m not impressed because post 2005 his stuff has mostly been “pop anthems”. They sound cool when played loud, but other than being pseudo-edgy angry brags, they have very little to say. I’d rather listen to a song about something. That’s not Em. He’s the guy you turn to for a bragging angry vibe to dance to. He’s not the guy who’s going to talk about anything substantial, because that’s bad for business.
@@TheresaReichley thats not true. Relapse, mmlp2, kamikaze and mtbmb are not pop-centric albums at all. Relapse, Recovery and mmlp2 are full of interesting subject matter. same with mtbmb despite a bunch of filler. Em has rapped about everything he could rap about. he’s exhausted his subject matter and is now uninspired. but that’s not a thing he had his whole career
Saying El P is better than Eminem is virtue signaling and a clear attempt at trying to be “different”. Just because you listen to Run The Jewels doesn’t mean you are a music messiah, El P is alright. But even from an underground perspective, Em runs laps. Be real.
The people defending Eminems album ENCORE in your video was wild lmao. That album was worse than revival...you can't listen to rain man an tell me Eminem was the greatest rapper of all time 😂 Album had two good tracks out of 23!! Stop the madness
As if your channels weren't good enough... You go and shine a light on EL-P. I once wanted to shoot a short film based on Canibus's "Poet Lauriette 2" and then you drop the Canibus video. I'm a millennial rapper from Johannesburg, South Africa and EL-P was such a monumental influence in the underground South African scene from Cape Town to Johannesburg, he was a massive influence on me personally as well. Thank you for doing this man
OK, so you already said Em is the better lyricist and is technically better at spitting. Your other arguments aren't even about who is a better rapper... Who they put on? El-P gave us Murs and Eminem gave us Royce Da MF 5'9 and had 50 on his label. I'm taking Em's camp but again this isn't about who is the better rapper. Production? You said Dre's production shouldn't be a factor for his rapping career but for the argument between these two it's a valid argument? Your bias is clearly showing at this point. Influence? Em changed the entire scene when he dropped. El-P wasn't doing anything that hadn't been done before. Who did El-P even influence? The only thing El-P has over Em is consistency, but if you take the top 25 songs from each of their catalogs... Em crushes El-P. I mean... this is all subjective at the end of the day.
Slim Shady LP and Marshal Mathers LP were mainstays in my teenage years. I have to credit Em for getting me into less mainstream hip hop. Can’t think of the last time I listened to an Eminem song, but 24 years ago he was one of my go-tos.
But he mentioned him, his point is more than skill related, it's about growing the culture as a record label owner and putting other on. Aesop never did that, though he is a much better rapper in my opinion
Any time someone tells me Eminem is hands down the goat I go into fight or flight. Like, "is this person racist? Do they just not know about a lot of rappers? Are they dumb??"
@@Euphoryaaait’s scientifically impossible to prove who is the goat of hiphop. It’s quite literally an opinion. For u two to call someone dumb for for having an unprovable opinion instead of having your unprovable opinion make you both seem special ed
Em is a safe entrance for middle America, that's what he brought to the table, a way for hip hop to break into the mainstream amongst "12 year old boys with short haircuts that wanted to piss off their mom because they don't want to get up to go to church anymore"
How is Varg Vikgernes not a part of this conversation?? (This joke can land me in hot water in both comunities, rap and metal, and I'm so fine with It :D)
Eminem Show IS mid and it's clear he was commercializing his sound further for mass appeal and radio play. Which worked obviously. There's some good songs on there but it's so odd to me when people put it on the same level as MMLP or even SSLP
Yeah I never bought the hype when that CD cam out. 3 track I liked the rest were meh to skip. I also remember the hype were simps were like "Dre produced this album!" Umm no he produced 2 tracks for the re-release and they weren't any good. People are dumb sheep.
Bro, for real. I've been in these Hip Hop groups on FB and I get laugh reacts so much for stating all the reasons why the Eminem Show is overrated and not his best album. It goes SSLP>MMLP>Devil's Night(even though yeah that's his group)>The Eminem Show. I can accept if someone thinks the MMLP is better than the SSLP, but I still think they'd wrong, but there's no way the Eminem Show touches either of those albums, or even Devil's Night.
I think everybody misses the theme of the Eminem show it’s suppose to sound like a circus which the beats do well while em explores his life which at that point was like a circus people miss that it’s a very mature em album to me I argue between that or mmlp as his best album
Cold Vein is a legit masterpiece and still holds up today. You can really see El's influence in that album as they've tried to release more music without him and it just isn't the same. Like even the lyrics aren't as good. It's weird.
The early Tyler the Creator records are better than people give them credit for. I'm queer AF and I think Goblin just oozes "i'm too scared to come out of the closet, I'm going to wear a facade of extreme toxic masculinity so no one will ever find out" energy. As a person who vibes with super dark music and was forced to pretend they were queer for years, I can empathize with what he was going through. It's very easy for me to listen to that album and just hear a scared kid losing his mind, I genuinely think it's an important piece of art.
El-Ps honestly got one of the most impressive discographies top to bottom. I honestly think he's the best rapper-producer ever, period. I can think of better rappers or better producers but I can't think of someone who outdoes him on both things.
@@shadez123 i think Dilla has unmatched cadence lol. And i know Dr Dre doesnt write his own raps, but he sure can deliver them. Also, cant sleep on Redman or DOOM either
The first time I heard EL-P as a producer was on Iron Galaxy when that was on Tony Hawk's Underground. First time I heard him as an artist was Flyentology on Fight Night Round 4. I knew who he was but wasn't until RTJ2 that I went back and listened to most of his work. Funcrusher Plus and Fantastic Damage stay in the work rotation because I'm bombarded by eminem clones from one coworker. Josh A and those types. I enjoyed EL's interview on Talib Kweli's People's Party. Gave us some insight on the mind of EL-P.
I will die on the hill that Eminem is the most overrated rapper of all time. That doesn't mean I don't think he is good. I just see where people constantly put him on the pedestal of a top 5 rapper, and I think he's lucky to crack top 30. The disparity makes him immensely overrated. His music has mostly been mid af, even if his skill will always impress. His work has not stood the test of time like tons of other greats.
I’m going to double down. As someone who’s listened to EL-P shortly after FanDam came out, “I’ll sleep when you’re dead” still holds up in story telling, master lyricism, and master production. I go back to it on a regular basis, and am just always finding bits of meaning in all of it. The profound descriptions of his lifestyle, and ideologies, are unmatched. EL-P is a Poet Laureate disguised as a hip hop producer.
Love the shoutout for Eyedea. Was lowkey bummed (but I totally get why) when he wasn't mentioned in the original video, especially in the battle rap segment. E&A's self-titled album is one of my all time favorites.
tip: Michael’s verse on the Eyedea/Slug/Sole track “Savior?” is a pretty special thing. It’s a non-album track but there’s a bunch of copies on youtube, some hi-fidelity, some that sound like ass. Find a good clean one with proper bass before you settle in, and turn it up. Slug goes first, Eyedea gets primetime, Sole closes it out.
I came into the video like "are you crazy? El-P is dope, but Aesop Rock is CRACKED." But you definitely got me on your side, I was not considering the rap culture argument, plus you name dropped Aesop, so that was cool. Headed to check out the White Rapper video for more context and content.
I raise livestock and one of the most frustrating things about the cv19 ivermectin situation is that it became really hard to buy without getting dirty looks, but my sheep genuinely needed to be dewormed! It is also a legit medicine for a lot of other purposes including in humans (but not for gatdamn viruses!) but dear lord did the last few years send us back generations regarding medical knowledge.
EL-P’s Cancer For Cure is one of my top rap records of all time, it’s always great to hear him get his flowers. With that being said, Imma always fiend for anybody who’s a rap nerd on any level to do a deep dive or any video on Aesop Rock because maaaaaaaan
Dude, you had me writing down so many names throughout this video. As someone who has been wanting to get more into indie hip-hop, this video gave me a great place to start. I'm happy to see El-P get some love and recognition. I am always trying to throw his name in the ring alongside the likes of Atmosphere and Aesop Rock whenever I'm involved in the time honored discussion of "white rappers who are actually good".
My fave white rappers are: Evidence, Grouch & Eligh, Aesop Rock, Anticon, Eyedea, Alchemist, The Beastie Boys, El P, Marlon Craft, R.A. The Rugged Man, Celph Titled, Vinnie Paz, Cage, Copywrite, MC Paul Barman, and Necro just to name a few.
Hey FD have you ever tried listening to Lil Ugly Mane? He's collabed with Denzel Curry since 2010 when raider klvn was still a thing and they are good friends. His Mista Thug Isolation project is a memphis revival sound project in an MF DOOM style character. But his later projects like Uneven Compromise, On Doing an Evil Deed Blues, Oblivion Access, and his most personal album Bedwetter are incredible, he is an amazingly versatile artist and I'd love to hear your opinion on him
Harddd disagree on EL-P's lyricism compared to Em's, I'll Sleep When You're Dead has some of the best written tracks in rap along with tracks like Deep Space 9mm
I remember being in a sidewalk cipher with El-P some 25+ years ago. I was fortunate that we were mainly spitting four bars apiece; had we given everyone more bars, it would’ve become apparent that I had no business being in his lane 😂 The white rapper I always go back to is RA the Rugged Man.
![Eminem - Somebody Save Me (feat. Jelly Roll) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Vwa0HenQMi4/mqdefault.jpg)
Video starts at 3:08
_"Alright we comin' in hot"_ he says :D
3 minute ad lmao
Seeeriously. 25% of this video is ad.
FD getting paid, I'm not mad nut lol
I mean I can't really be mad, he's got a family to feed, but thank you.
EL and Aesop are the only people I’m willing to even consider in the goat conversation.
Aesop is serious too
Those are my top two best, although eventually we're going to have to start talking about Prof if he keeps coming out with bangers, but when folks talk about the goat they're talking about how "big" they are. My homicidal thoughts started to go down when I realized that great used to mean very large so Muhammad Ali was never saying that he's the best boxer of all time He's saying that he's the largest boxing figure of all time which is accurate. Tupac or snoop if we're being honest or Eminem is the greatest rapper of all time because of the space they take up in the culture, not just because they are amazing rappers.
I would say Evidence from Dilated Peoples as well.
He's nice.
correct take
There is literally no question it’s Aesop. I’m claiming white privilege here. El P may be a bigger influencer of the Culture. But there is no white rapper who has dug deeper into his own culture, exploring, exposing, and transforming the white experience within hiphop. And line for line, no white rapper remotely approaches him. He has to be put next to Lupe or MF. #facts
Eyedea was amazing. The most memorable show I ever went to was him leading a 2hr all improve set to a crowd of 20 at Cabooze. It was equal parts hip hop, jazz, and slam poetry. All done for the joy of doing it and $5 a head from those that braved the snowstorm.
He might have been known popularly for his battle rap skills, but his best work wasn't done slinging attacks. It was when he brought artists together in his community to make magic.
Rip Eyedea
By The Throat is a super cool album that's like rap-rock from a rap perspective. Eyedea was the shit.
I would give anything for a time machine and a chance to attend that show. Sounds like it would definitely crack my top 5.
Eyedea is the most insane actual off the top freestyler I've ever heard. Look up on here Eyedea and Slug on Sways show. Crazy shit. And yeah I think eyedea didn't even particularly like the battle rap scene .. he just happened to be good at it lol Like his actual albums lotta the songs aren't really battle rap or talking shit.
@@0oidiedinatimemachineo024 not only could he do these crazy stream of consciousness freestyles, he could switch up his flow while doing them. He and the band would all take turns bouncing off each other, sending each other new melodies or rhythms to play off of. So he wouldn't just freestyle, he would freestyle in the style of the trombone solo that just went before him.
His actual lyrics on Birth of a Fish and By the Throat were at times extremely profound. Songs like Skydiver or Color My World Mine. He also had a ton of other experimental projects that were absurdly creative, like face candy and Oliver Hart.
Aesop Rock will always be my favorite rapper period. I'm not black or white (I'm Native and Hispanic) and his art resonates for me the most as far as lyrics/ content, production, creativity, the progression of his production and willingness to push himself out of his bounds each project,, not to mention he's been going in on all types of shadowwork before it was popular. Been listening for going on 24 years and every new project he's released is my favorite. Aes goes deep, I wish more people would be brave enough to take their art there ❤ but yes if it wasn't for El-P we may never known any of the names we do today. He had a huge impact on a critical era of hip-hop that I wish got more recognition. But at the same time, I listen to who resonates and never cared about popularity/likes/streams/followers, etc. I don't participate in these Eminem conversations.. everyone is gonna have their favorite rapper, its subjective and the conversation is played out. There is no best in any genre, only different flavors and some people have a clear favorite, some people like em all and its all fine either way.
Aesop is my favorite, too. Unfortunately he hasn't had much of an influence on the larger hip-hop scene, for much the same reason that Slug, Murs, and MF Doom didn't. It's an industry. It's really all about money. And Aesop in particular is openly antagonistic of the music industry, to the point where he often actively shuns stardom. For a moment it looked like The Impossible Kid was going to be for him what Good News For People Who Love Bad News did for Modest Mouse, propelling him from "indie" to mainstream superstardom, but it didn't. And I think it's because he goes out of his way to duck the spotlights.
"Cameras or guns, one of y'all is gonna shoot me to death."
I'm mixed Asian-white and I also love Aes haha
This exactly, love LP but as far as white rappers go Aesop is the goat. LP can have greatest white producer, Aes is a poet and performer.
I'm a rock fan at heart, so of course the Beastie Boys are my favorite, but lyrically, Aes is on an entirely different level from almost anyone.
@@seanhollibaugh3776he's an amazing performer.. seen him twice and he seems like hes having so much fun💚
RTJ is one of those rare acts where every track on their albums is a banger
I love the albums but at this point it's almost to their detriment. The first album had A Christmas Fucking Myrical and I don't think they've replicated that energy where it starts out slow and builds from verse to verse since. Maybe I forgot some songs but they could mix it up just a bit more imo.
It was today I found out LP had solo shit. Both of them are excellent, but I always loved LP's word selection. Like an angry Aesop Rock.😂
I found them through the Luke Cage release trailer I knew then I had to get all there stuff.
@matthewhurley9979 I agree. Their slow songs are almost non existent
@@bazzfromthebackground3696 Did you know about the Company Flow work before his solo period?
I was in a car ride with my co-worker once and he started playing NF. It was a horrifying experience.
haha my little sister, she was 12 or 13 at the time introduced me to NF, I couldn't stop laughing, he really is Eminem if he only made lose yourself
Yeah, if he isn't hitting a certain energy, he isn't hitting at all. I'm just waiting for him to fuck up and swear on a record, like we used to do with Kirk Franklin.
I play Rocket League and NF has some songs featured on the game. They are so corny and lame
@@PeterEhikEminem if he didn’t do multisyllable rhymes lol
@@youngjayvin eminem if he was Christian boy and made superhero trailer music
Love that you shouted out ‘I’ll Sleep When You’re Dead’- I don’t hear people give that one nearly enough shine for how rawly creative it is. To this day I’m floored that anybody got Cedric and Omar from The Mars Volta on a hip-hop song, and that’s a prime reason as to why El-P is in this conversation
And Trent Reznor.
I think his writing deserves plenty of attention too, and wish you had talked about it a bit. Definitely has a distinct style that makes him stand out.
He has some of the most creative and memorable punchlines and analogies, that are often equally hilarious, absurd, and obscene. He can play with internal vowel rhymes like DOOM writing a tongue twister, and then get serious with verses that feel more like dark poetry. It's an often twisty, atypical approach, and every new verse he records feels unpredictable and surprising.
Yeah, even as an Eminem fan, I'd still say El-P is the better lyracist too, especially on the RTJ albums.
@@jbc5099 I definitely prefer him haha. Eminem wins in technical categories, but that doesn't make him any more fun to listen to usually. EL-P didn't worry about being as fast or precise, it's more about feeling out the verse.
One of my favourite El-P verses is on Population Control, and his rhymes are so sparse and oddly placed throughout the verse, but the lyricism and delivery are so sharp, it works.
A three minute ad is wild. 😭
Hope you got a nice check lmao.
i swear bro trying to skip that shit made think i clicked on the wrong video
Im so happy to have sponsor block because 3 minutes is WILD
@@Universe1413 sponsor block? 💀
25% of the whole video bro
Yes, I also hope he got a nice check. I like his content and it's nice to think he's getting paid for it. Especially since I'm getting it for free.
Em's rage at his Mom and being poor was his creative fuel, now that he's rich and made peace with his family he has nothing to say
False
@@fyoutube2294 prove it is false. Eminem's biggest moments in the last decade were yet again a song for his mom, fighting in the mud with Machine Gun Kelly (a rapper WAY under his league), the "that's an awfully hot coffee pot" freestyle, and two divisive doubtful quality albums.
@@necromax13 doesn’t sound like you’d take the discussion in good faith but sure. He had a lot to say in that bet freestyle- which was good despite what people say because his goal wasnt to rap a crazy freestyle but to stand for something he believes in. In Mmlp2 he had already solved his issues and it was still great. Kamikaze was dope, Darkness was a great song and he bodied mgk without trying. Just some bullet points off the top of my head. But you’ll probably just disagree with every single one which is fine- I can’t “prove” an opinion. Compared to someone who actually has nothing to say (like ye or wayne) he definitely has a lot to say; not as poignant as before but its still there. If you think the albums suck then thats fine as they aren’t great albums for the most part but he has stuff to say still that he cares about and do matter in the world and music scene
@@fyoutube2294 I do take the argument in good faith, it's just that there's nothing to argue about. All he has is his over elaborated lyricism and gimmicky wordplay, because the content, production, or mass appeal (let's be honest, eminem's name is still what draws people in) isn't there.
@@necromax13 well, did you read the rest of my comment? I covered everything you just said. You’re right, Eminem’s name alone will move units despite the work being good or not
Oh my god, this is amazing. I went to look at a few NF videos to see what he was all about (you were right, he's just like you said), and I shit you not, this was one of the top comments served to me:
"I've never listened to rap beside some Eminem, but I'm absolutely in love with NF. I tell everyone that HOPE is one of the greatest songs for me in history! What other song has this intensity, lyrics, interpretation, energy, piano and orchestra along with rap? None."
I can't make this up. It's like a microcosm of everything you said in the longer video on the main channel. I don't get why someone would have the confidence to say that no other hip hop is like that when they in the same comment admit that they don't listen to any hip hop. EM really breeds this typ of listener and I'm starting to see why so many people think he's the GOAT.
That shit ain't hip hop, hell it ain't even pop rap
@@Haildarklordvader its white rap lolk
As someone who was, and had been a hip hop fan for a decade, when "My name is" came out on MTV, I already knew what was going to happen watching the aftermath of that song. Soon, all kinds of non hip hop fans, 100% of them white - was "listening to hip hop" and naming Eminem as the "greatest of all time" but none of them could name more than 5 rappers. And that shit festered for over a decade, and is why so many (mostly white) people name Eminem the GOAT.
I'm an Aesop Rock guy. In my first exposure to Aesop Rock's music, I had no idea he was white. In fact, I didn't even HEAR his music at first. At my college, one of the art students had painted an enormous five-foot tall portrait called "6B Panorama", titled after Aesop's song. I had never heard of Aesop at the time. The song is a list of all the images that Aesop saw while sitting on his fire escape, and the painting was a huge cityscape that essentially served as an enormous "Where's Waldo" with the song's lyrics hung next to the painting. I stood staring at this painting for a solid half-hour, not just to find every image from the lyrics, but just to soak up the imagery and poetry of the whole thing. I was almost moved to tears when I read the line "I saw a roof garden on the apartment across the street, and kick myself, because somewhere along the way I lost my seeds".
That, to me, was the perfect representation of what it takes to fully appreciate Aesop's work (or at least his good stuff, when he's not re-remaking Bazooka Tooth). His imagery is too densely layered to soak it all in at once; you need to listen to it multiple times to get an idea of the full picture he's trying to paint. To this day, I've only really devoted that kind of time to two of his albums ("Float" and "Labor" as well as the Fast Cars EP) as well as the song "None Shall Pass". Keep meaning to dive deeper into his other stuff.
To circle back to the thesis of the main video: are there any black artists that do what Aesop Rock does that I just haven't heard of? I'd be fascinated to check them out, if so.
Great to hear some love for I'll Sleep When Your Dead, such a criminally underrated album. When I first heard Habeas Corpses as a 15 year old kid who was into sci-fi, it blew my mind. You mean you can build entire dystopian future worlds in a single rap song? I later learned he was far from the first, but what an introduction. Anyone looking for more info should check out his 'What Had Happened Was' interview series with Open Mike Eagle. They go super in depth about the Company Flow/Cannibal Ox era
Habeas Corpses might be my favorite song of all time
Tazmanian Pain Coaster is a sonic journey.
@@signifiedbsides1129yes, absolutely one of my all time favs!
My fav album from him as of now, Dear Sirs and Run The Numbers in succession goes hard
Dude me too. When I was 15 as well I decided to get into hip hop and I first stumbled into Deltron 3030, then went to Dr Octagon, and tried to google what's next and come up with El-P's I'll Sleep When You're Dead. As a kid that was obsessed with Sci-Fi, specifically Philip K Dick at the time, when he made a PKD reference it was like the Leo pointing at the screen meme. It was this holy shit moment of finding music that felt like it was tuned into all the things that mattered to me, including the anti-Bush politics.
And then the production, it was everything I was into at the time. A little experimental, a lot dystopian, and strongly thematic. I was way into all of this weird, dark electronic music and it was tuned into my station.
1/4 of the video being an ad is crazy
yoooooo why did i yell at FD at the 2:30 mark
Maybe a warning next time
Def would NOT be subscribing.
Literally has time stamps, stop crying ya'll :P
@@Lucciffermeow “intro” does not mean “3 min ad”…:P
One of the missing pieces hinted in the video is Jason DeMarco. He's the producer at adult swim credited with linking El-P and Mike together to form RTJ. He also co-created Toonami which has had a significant influence in the culture as well.
Agreed with everything you said. One thing I really appreciate about El-P is his focused anger. He's not necessarily a political rapper per se but he communicates a sense of horror at the state of the world, and he does it with a good alternation of irony, humour and sincerity. It's not surprising that he collabed with Zach de la Rocha for RTJ, although ZdlR is definitely more explicit about his political ideology.
It might not be true of earlier projects, but El-P is certainly a political rapper when it comes to RTJ, plenty of their tracks are deeply political.
I fell in love with El-P from Stepfather Factory. Dude has always been a political rapper.
Love seeing Slug and Eyedea (RIP) get a shout out. Rhymesayers was incredibly influential.
Though of course one of the devastating battle rap lines Slug suffered was Sage Francis asking him what he's gonna do when his fans find out he's not white. Granted, half the point of that line is a direct intersection with the fact that societally he's still effectively white to most people…
seems like a good sign for a hip hop label if DOOM ends up going your way for a little bit.
Mikey yes, Sean no.
@@FangsFirst: he's not white? Wtf is he?
Sarai is another great white rapper unfortunately she didn't get enough praise and was labeled "Female Eminem" and it ruined her career
And you listen to her most popular song "Ladies" you'll notice Cardi B , Nicki Minaj, Fergie, Iggy , Beyonce and Meg the stallion took her style and added to their own flavors to it
No female artist at the time was rapping about what she was rapping about
El-P's verse on Christmas Fucking Miracle legitimately makes me feel like a better world is possible in a way that pretty much no other song does. I actually only started checking out his solo stuff with any sort of fervor after watching your Eminem video.
Nice to see Eyedea mentioned, his death hit me like Mac Miller's seemed to hit the wider world. Even Shadows Have Shadows was my number one song to get sad drunk to as a teen.
My 'favorite' white rapper (Astronautalis) unfortunately ended up being a sex pest so I've abstained from listening to him.
Last thing I wanna say on a tangentially related note (rapper but not white) is check out Ceschi Ramos, his versatility and messaging blow me away.
When does he talk about El-P? I gave up after the first 10 mins was spent talking about his delusional conspiracy theory that medicines made for humans are actually hOrSe mEdiCiNe
@@xp8969
El P isn't mentioned in this one, but FD goes into crazy detail about him in the myth of black excellence video
@@NeoPokebonz so it's clickbait? That's wack
@@xp8969ya man ivermectin is primarily used as a horse dewormer so that’s not conspiracy. Go ask a vet.
That is a great verse, but I have to say that in my mind, the undisputed best RTJ El-P verse is his incredible bars on "Don't Get Captured", which I find to have even eclipsed killer mike on. Also I want to mention his verse on "Thursday in the Danger Room", but Mike's verse on that song just destroyed so hard it doesn't stand out as much.
"i dont try to be different i am , so inevitably my style will survive when your now turns to then " - El P (company flow)
I didn't really get into El-P until about 2020 when RTJ4 came out and that was amazing for me. If you want to see just how cool this dude is watch the Run the Jewels Tiny Desk Concert. A few times Killer Mike either forgets or messes up his lyrics and El-P doesn't miss a beat and raps Killer Mike's verses and brings him back. Doesn't even hesitate.
Oh, also, thanks for your content in general man. I usually don't comment, but I generally love your takes and pretty much everything. Your takes are well thought out. Keep doing what you are doing.
Yes, well articulated - I have a lot of time for El-P - he's definitely invested heavily in the careers of others (I saw him perform live as the hype man for Aesop Rock) and his partnership with Killer Mike has transformed El's cynicism into something more laser-focused, self-deprecating and prophetic. My personal vote for REAL greatest white rapper of all time would go to the indomitable DoseOne with Aesop Rock a close 2nd. An aside: El-P and Eminem both appeared on the Soundbombing 2 album in 1999 released by Rawkus, the same label that put out Funcrusher Plus.
When does he talk about El-P? I gave up after the first 10 mins was spent talking about his delusional conspiracy theory that medicines made for humans are actually hOrSe mEdiCiNe
great choice. dose’s work with clouddead is beautiful.
doseone is a legend but i'd go sage francis.
R.A. the Rugged Man was also on Soundbombing 2. white boys were all over that album
DoseOne, that's a deep cut. It's still Aes for me with El a close second, but I do enjoy DoseOne
"but im not afraid of twelve year olds"
- a braver man than me, twelve year olds are just getting incisive and empathetic enough for real cruelty and they revel in that new power, im terrofied of twelve year olds
Same- I’m dead afraid, you don’t wanna miss with those… creatures
There's a whole lot of truth here.
Every person is there worst self as a 12 year old
His Rhythm Roulette episode low key showed how much of a monster he is in a studio. Most people in that series will make a beat with a sample off one or maybe two of the blind picked albums. Hung over as hell El P didn't realize that was an option and found things to use on all 3 to put together into something dope.
100% this
EL-P is my favorite musician across any genre, but honestly, I was never impressed by his Rhythem Roulette episode. To me, it sounded like he was so ashamed of the samples he wound up with, he built a beat over it to hide the samples as much as possible, rather than making a beat where the samples and original composition compliment each other. Not to say the end beat was bad, but I've heard far, far better from EL.
To each his own though
You clearly forgot about Bladee
I'll Sleep When You're Dead is such a hauntingly brilliant album that is eclipses every other white rapper to have ever lived, sans Aesop Rock.
i get so much joy whenever anyone brings up that album, one of my favourite of all time and so insanely underrated
Sage Francis & Sadistik beat the sh&t out of that album with their right nipples
@@MrShaiya96I enjoy both of those rappers but no you are incorrect
@@MrShaiya96 Have you listened to it?
Sage Francis is solid, but a cursory glance at this Sadistik guy isn't impressing me. What do you recommend beyond Russian Roulette?
I'll add: El-P's ability as a lyrical technician is solid but not quite top tier. What sets him apart, though, is his combination of being good-but-not-quite-great in that regard, but also being a great storyteller and producer; listen to the four and a half minute sci-fi vignette of Habeas Corpses and tell me I'm wrong. If you look at him in any particular aspect he might be overshadowed by guys like MF DOOM as far as nuance, by Aesop Rock in terms of technicality, or someone like Sage Francis when it comes to battle rap or freestyle, but if you look at El as an all-arounder there aren't many rappers who stack up to him, imo.
El-P is a good choice; RTJ is great, Mike's weird flirts with right-libertarianism notwithstanding.
Oh, El-P stepped on my foot once. That's my claim to fame.
Been saying this for years 😂😂 His impact on underground hip-hop is just unmatched and unlike a lot of white rappers, his space in the hip hop culture doesn't feel forced or unnatural. He's there because it is what he loves, not for a paycheck. Besides his cultural impacts his flows are genuinelly some of the most creative and mind boggling flows in rap. His production is unparalleled too. Easily in my top 3 of all time. Love your videos man, keep up the good work!
People complaining about the ad
1. You can skip it
2. It has time stamps
3. Its actually useful info for an ad( unlike a lot of ads on RUclips)
4. You can skip it
5. You can skip it
Man that era of 2005-2012 ug off kilter hip hop was so influential for me. Being introduced to El-p as well as Aesop Rock, weatherman, cage, Murs, eyedea and abilities, Scarub, Living Legends etc really opened the doors into different channels of underground hip hop. I know that list is largely white nerd / abstract niche but it showed me the channels to discover other areas of underground hip hop with deeper black roots like cannabis, souls of mischief, gravediggaz, hieroglyphics etc. Great time for music!
The Rock the Bells era basically! Mr Lif, Visionaries, C Rayz Walz, Apathy, Celph Titled, Brother Ali, The Grouch, Zion I... Sooo many artists in this group of hip-hop
@@visual_bored omg I went to rock the bells one year, it was awesome. I also went to "Paid Dues" festival that apparently Murs funded completely out of pocket and avoided corporate sponsorship so he could make it his own. The definition of independent artist.
@@xombiekat13 "mumble rap" is not real
@@xombiekat13 we wouldn't make fun of backpack rap if it weren't for elitists like you
@@visual_bored
Mr. Lif and Brother Ali are nice.
Oh wow. That’s an awfully hot coffee pot.
I’m sorry. It just never gets old 😂
I’m by NO means a hip hop nerd. I’m a white lady from the suburbs. But I’ll Sleep When You’re Dead is one of my favourite albums ever and Run the Jewels is peppered through some of my playlists. I’m forever grateful to the housemate I had in college who introduced me to El-P.
As a HUGE fan of both your work and Dead End Hip Hop, PLEASE have a conversation/video with Myke C-Town!!! 🙏
I feel your guys’ tastes & personalities would blend sooooo well together!!
I have been having this debate with Eminem Stans for as long as they've been saying Em is the greatest of all time. I can't tell you how stoked I am that you did this video. Thank you. You've really been on a roll.
I just ignore Stans, they dont actually listen to rap. Its as DOOM said, casual listeners
Y'know, i personally put Em in my #1, but i gotta admit, most Eminem fams are cancer. They can't swallow the fact that someone might not like the album that you like. But to be fair, when you have the biggest fanbase in hiphop, you will have the most stupid people.
@@HollowHuskhaving Em as your #1 doesn’t invalidate your opinion. Thats such snobby bs.
@@leastselfawarepotassium Gates won't keep themselves
As a PR old head from NYC during the rise, I always gotta drop in on these takes. You've introduced me to a couple things that hit my stubborn a-- blind spots.
Hola amigo soy un gringo Que habla español y he escrito muchas canciones en español y espero que eso animan otros gringos a aprender español y hacer amistades con los latinos en su barrio necesitamos más unidad respeto hermano
i got into El-P from playing Tony Hawk's Underground and American Wasteland. Heard him with Mr Lif on "Phantom" and then later on on AW with "Jukie Skate Rock" Fell in love and have been a fan since. Every time someone tells me I need sleep, I say "I'll sleep when you're dead" to reference that album. Great video! loving the content.
How can this guy be more influential than the guy that brought 50 and G unit to the mainstream?
No arguments here. I actually saw Run the Jewels in my city. They were amazing, even though El P kept forgetting what city he was in.
Also, man, all those rappers you named reminded me of my latter days in high school when I moved past Eminem and Nu Metal into a bunch of indie rap.
Lol he probably had too much acid that night 😆
I'm glad you referred to Slug from Atmosphere, though he had said in interviews he considers himself mixed ethnicity (because his father is Black and Indigenous American) even though he doesn't look mixed ethnicity.
(He pretty much is whyte passing, not saying that as a slam, I like Atmosphere's music)
He also spoke on how the industry wanted to make him the next big whyte rapper back in the early 2000s.
Had no idea Slug was biracial. I always considered him my other favorite White rapper second to El-P.
@@jovanreid6782
Yeah bruh, he spoke about it recently last year on Brother Ali's podcast... there's a clip of it on Brother Ali's RUclips channel.
lol hes white. If everyone with barely any POC blood wasn't considered white then half the white people in the south would be "mixed"
Lmao when he said slug I thought damn he’s like the older generation Logic
What's crazy is that I think Slug *could've* been the next big white rapper of the 2000's (possibly the biggest) if he had decided to go in that lane.
A complex but still easygoing lyricist and a helluva lot more photogenic than most of the other underground rap dudes of his day. His music didn't have the "scaring the hoes" setback that everyone clowns on Em for. But I respect him for sticking to his guns and remaining independent.
One of my favourite things about El P is besides being integral to a lot of scenes and some of the best artists as you note and being a phenomenal performer in his own right [getting to see him live when RTJ did their first tour of Australia was amazing]... he is also the source of probably the best ever remix of a Nine Inch Nails song I've have ever heard. His version of Only is just amazingly atmospheric and the funny thing is it wasn't until years after I saw RTJ live that I even connected the dots.
I agree. If you're a true hip hop fan and you put Em in your top 50, you're giving him massive amounts of credit and hold massive respect for his music. Man gave Em his flowers just didn't want to give him GOAT status which is fair.
Another solid vid. I've always put EL-P and Aesop Rock over Eminem for damn near 20 years, so I appreciate you for making this. EL-P's beat making skills is also very, very underrated.
Man that Cold Vein was crazy good. I'll find myself putting on the instrumental version from time to time. That album will always hold a special place in my heart.
Classic album. High school memories with that one! Company Flow - Funcrusher Plus is a banger too
@Signal_in_the_noise yessir
music by cavelight was that shyt too
That album is my hip hop Bible. I know it's supposed to be illmatic and I do love it but cannibal ox put together a nuclear explosion one good time.
I watched the front-loaded ad with as much interest as if it were one of your regular articles. Interesting stuff. Cheers Fiq.
Beastie Boys need to be in the conversation if only for their production. Even Chuck D once said they had the best beats in hip hop.
I'm always happy to hear Definitive Jux get recognition!
I am willing to die by your side on this hill, EL-P is amazing
In fairness to Em, no one includes his production skills against him or for him in the greatest rapper debate.
It's like including J Cole's in asking if he's the best rapper.
LP solidified himself as the white rapper GOAT when he became a playable character in Gears of War
I nearly did a double take at your assertion that Eminem has made a lot of amazing beats as a producer - mostly because in and around discussion of Eminem and Shady records, Em's work as a producer (and to stay behind the boards doing it all himself) is often considered one of the big reasons he's stagnated so much in the 2010s. Folks have wanted Eminem to get out of Detroit and work with other people (or hell, just stick with Dre) - or hell, I'd be thrilled to see him around the Bruiser Brigade or Quelle Chris if he wants Detroit-centric producers - but he does SO much of it himself and so many of the beats feel simultaneously oversold and canned.
And I remember that also being an issue with everyone who signed to Shady - it was an issue with Yelawolf, it was an issue with the wave of rappers coming up with him in the mid-2000s he tried to put on, and most glaringly it was an issue with Slaughterhouse, where the beats were going for a rock-inflected bombast for radio crossover in the early 2010s (which aged like ass, btw) that never really fit the group. Hell, folks might have a myriad number of issues with Joe Budden for... really, so much bullshit over the years, but he was right that the production behind Slaughterhouse on the Shady-backed records sounded like shit.
As often the case, Eminem’s beats are considered interesting in the first half of his career. The beats you’re referring to on his latter career and slaughterhouse’s albums aren’t really his beats. Theyre are beats he cosigned from someone else. That is to say, he has a bad EAR for picking bested from others. But his own beats are still pretty solid. Example: I Will(2020), Till I Colapse, Renegade, etc.
Eminem’s production in the early to mid 2000s was solid and consistent. TES, arguably his greatest album, is self produced. he still makes great beats from time to time but is very inconsistent and he did plague slaughterhouse with terrible production
Eminem has tinnitus. He might literally have a bad ear for beats these days.
3 minute ad read at the beginning? Get that money.
Its his b sides channel i dont think its that big of a deal
@@HandyDandy6 I'm not mad about it, I'm glad he's getting paid.
@fyzxnerd Same same some others were kind of annoyed it seemed like.
The Greatest White Rapper of All Times name is Ian Matthias Bavitz but we call him Aesop Rock. Don't sleep on this man.
Metalhead here! EL-P was my bridge into truly loving rap for the first time. Without him I never would have found and enjoyed Aesop Rock or Open Mike Eagle. Totally back this take.
I saw Run The Jewels in Atlanta on Inauguration Day 2017 and it was one of the most cathartic experiences I've ever had in my life. El-P seemed surprised about how hard the crowd was going too.
Even as a casual Em fan who was white and the perfect age to have my mind blown by his arrival, I always thought his albums only ever had 1 or 2 songs that really hit me as appropriate quality for his obvious skill-set.
thats insane. mmlp is a masterpiece top to bottom
@@slomo6054It really isn't, man. Let's just be objective. Do you honestly believe that songs like Stan, The Way I Am, and Criminal are of comparable quality to Amityville and Bitch Please 2? MMLP has classic level talent and some classic level tracks, but it's not a cover-to-cover classic. None of Em's work is cover-to-cover classic. He's a classic, genre-defining artist with classic tracks, but I don't think any of his records are classics. He misses too often, and he's definitely not the only hip hop giant to have that problem.
@@NJoCaulfield if we actually wanna be objective then SSLP, MMLP, and TES are 3 classics. they are unanimously considered as such in the rap genre.
an album doesn’t have to have a flawless tracklist. Take TPAB, you aint gotta lie isn’t on the level of tracks like wesley’s theory or how much a dollar cost. albums like these are greater than the sum of their parts and are statements.
Even then that’s only his early stuff. I’m not impressed because post 2005 his stuff has mostly been “pop anthems”. They sound cool when played loud, but other than being pseudo-edgy angry brags, they have very little to say. I’d rather listen to a song about something. That’s not Em. He’s the guy you turn to for a bragging angry vibe to dance to. He’s not the guy who’s going to talk about anything substantial, because that’s bad for business.
@@TheresaReichley thats not true. Relapse, mmlp2, kamikaze and mtbmb are not pop-centric albums at all. Relapse, Recovery and mmlp2 are full of interesting subject matter. same with mtbmb despite a bunch of filler. Em has rapped about everything he could rap about. he’s exhausted his subject matter and is now uninspired. but that’s not a thing he had his whole career
Saying El P is better than Eminem is virtue signaling and a clear attempt at trying to be “different”. Just because you listen to Run The Jewels doesn’t mean you are a music messiah, El P is alright. But even from an underground perspective, Em runs laps. Be real.
El p definitely makes better music. Em definitely got bars he's dope but his music isn't for me. I fux with def jux since the beginning
I highly recommend listen to El-P episodes on the Open Mike Eagle's podcast "What Had Happened Was"
>greatest white rapper vid
>3 min ad at the start
Hell yeah get that money
The people defending Eminems album ENCORE in your video was wild lmao. That album was worse than revival...you can't listen to rain man an tell me Eminem was the greatest rapper of all time 😂
Album had two good tracks out of 23!! Stop the madness
Nujabes should get his roses for his impact on the culture. He's not white but def helped shape a new sound
RA The Rugged Man needs to be mentioned more in these discussions, at least in terms of straight up spitting bars
As if your channels weren't good enough... You go and shine a light on EL-P. I once wanted to shoot a short film based on Canibus's "Poet Lauriette 2" and then you drop the Canibus video. I'm a millennial rapper from Johannesburg, South Africa and EL-P was such a monumental influence in the underground South African scene from Cape Town to Johannesburg, he was a massive influence on me personally as well. Thank you for doing this man
Awe, broer!
@@Barc112 awe my king
Company Flow is heavily underrated, but El-P earns the shine with his solo work and RTJ...
MC Paul Barman needs some props too
Bruh company flow first album sounded like alien music to me the beats were fucking crazyyyy
It's good to see MC Paul Barman's name here.
He said “PAUL BARMAN” 💫
lol Paul Barman 😂 I forgot about that guy
I listened to so much Paul Barman in college, what a blast from the past
OK, so you already said Em is the better lyricist and is technically better at spitting. Your other arguments aren't even about who is a better rapper...
Who they put on? El-P gave us Murs and Eminem gave us Royce Da MF 5'9 and had 50 on his label. I'm taking Em's camp but again this isn't about who is the better rapper.
Production? You said Dre's production shouldn't be a factor for his rapping career but for the argument between these two it's a valid argument? Your bias is clearly showing at this point.
Influence? Em changed the entire scene when he dropped. El-P wasn't doing anything that hadn't been done before. Who did El-P even influence?
The only thing El-P has over Em is consistency, but if you take the top 25 songs from each of their catalogs... Em crushes El-P.
I mean... this is all subjective at the end of the day.
Dude...discography is literally the most important part of any of these convos and he made it clear that he clears em there so what then?
Slim Shady LP and Marshal Mathers LP were mainstays in my teenage years. I have to credit Em for getting me into less mainstream hip hop. Can’t think of the last time I listened to an Eminem song, but 24 years ago he was one of my go-tos.
It's aesop rock for me but this a easy pick aswell.
Same
But he mentioned him, his point is more than skill related, it's about growing the culture as a record label owner and putting other on. Aesop never did that, though he is a much better rapper in my opinion
@@agatofelin722 He did later in referenceto el p influence, I was watching the beginning when he was highlighting good rappers an didn't mention him.
Facts
he mentioned Aes as someone El-P helped break through (7:39)
Any time someone tells me Eminem is hands down the goat I go into fight or flight. Like, "is this person racist? Do they just not know about a lot of rappers? Are they dumb??"
Same and I don’t think they understand it’s not a flex to say that
@@Euphoryaaait’s scientifically impossible to prove who is the goat of hiphop. It’s quite literally an opinion. For u two to call someone dumb for for having an unprovable opinion instead of having your unprovable opinion make you both seem special ed
Em is a safe entrance for middle America, that's what he brought to the table, a way for hip hop to break into the mainstream amongst "12 year old boys with short haircuts that wanted to piss off their mom because they don't want to get up to go to church anymore"
man, this channel is the business. great food for thought - thanks
How is Varg Vikgernes not a part of this conversation?? (This joke can land me in hot water in both comunities, rap and metal, and I'm so fine with It :D)
Lol. Nobody here caught your reference except me (took a gap year in Norway in '93-'94 when he was burnin things)
Camu Tao is from my hometown. Went to elementary and middle school with him. RIP.
Eminem Show IS mid and it's clear he was commercializing his sound further for mass appeal and radio play. Which worked obviously. There's some good songs on there but it's so odd to me when people put it on the same level as MMLP or even SSLP
Yeah I never bought the hype when that CD cam out.
3 track I liked the rest were meh to skip.
I also remember the hype were simps were like "Dre produced this album!"
Umm no he produced 2 tracks for the re-release and they weren't any good.
People are dumb sheep.
Bro, for real. I've been in these Hip Hop groups on FB and I get laugh reacts so much for stating all the reasons why the Eminem Show is overrated and not his best album. It goes SSLP>MMLP>Devil's Night(even though yeah that's his group)>The Eminem Show. I can accept if someone thinks the MMLP is better than the SSLP, but I still think they'd wrong, but there's no way the Eminem Show touches either of those albums, or even Devil's Night.
I think everybody misses the theme of the Eminem show it’s suppose to sound like a circus which the beats do well while em explores his life which at that point was like a circus people miss that it’s a very mature em album to me I argue between that or mmlp as his best album
Cold Vein is a legit masterpiece and still holds up today. You can really see El's influence in that album as they've tried to release more music without him and it just isn't the same. Like even the lyrics aren't as good. It's weird.
The early Tyler the Creator records are better than people give them credit for. I'm queer AF and I think Goblin just oozes "i'm too scared to come out of the closet, I'm going to wear a facade of extreme toxic masculinity so no one will ever find out" energy. As a person who vibes with super dark music and was forced to pretend they were queer for years, I can empathize with what he was going through. It's very easy for me to listen to that album and just hear a scared kid losing his mind, I genuinely think it's an important piece of art.
El-Ps honestly got one of the most impressive discographies top to bottom. I honestly think he's the best rapper-producer ever, period. I can think of better rappers or better producers but I can't think of someone who outdoes him on both things.
I agree. Catch me on another random day and I’d say Q-Tip. It’s one of those two though.
Id say Dilla.
@@John_on_the_mountain Better producer for sure, but I don't think he's a better rapper, even if he's underrated on that front
@@TheRonwell2009 Literally the only other one in the convo imo
@@shadez123 i think Dilla has unmatched cadence lol. And i know Dr Dre doesnt write his own raps, but he sure can deliver them. Also, cant sleep on Redman or DOOM either
Man I used to bump a ton of Atmosphere in highschool, God's Bathroom Floor was my jam
Company Flow Funcrusher Plus was wild af. It's still one of my all-time favorite albums.
that track Patriotism from soundbombing 2 still go absolutely crazy
Every day I'm reminded of what Killer Mike became 😢
for real. the fact that he wasn't the most outspoken voice against Cop City when all that came to light is beyond fucking depressing
The first time I heard EL-P as a producer was on Iron Galaxy when that was on Tony Hawk's Underground. First time I heard him as an artist was Flyentology on Fight Night Round 4. I knew who he was but wasn't until RTJ2 that I went back and listened to most of his work. Funcrusher Plus and Fantastic Damage stay in the work rotation because I'm bombarded by eminem clones from one coworker. Josh A and those types.
I enjoyed EL's interview on Talib Kweli's People's Party. Gave us some insight on the mind of EL-P.
I will die on the hill that Eminem is the most overrated rapper of all time. That doesn't mean I don't think he is good. I just see where people constantly put him on the pedestal of a top 5 rapper, and I think he's lucky to crack top 30. The disparity makes him immensely overrated. His music has mostly been mid af, even if his skill will always impress. His work has not stood the test of time like tons of other greats.
I’m going to double down. As someone who’s listened to EL-P shortly after FanDam came out, “I’ll sleep when you’re dead” still holds up in story telling, master lyricism, and master production. I go back to it on a regular basis, and am just always finding bits of meaning in all of it. The profound descriptions of his lifestyle, and ideologies, are unmatched. EL-P is a Poet Laureate disguised as a hip hop producer.
I’m gonna take this as a reminder to pull out a bunch of the old Def Jux wax and see how it hits today
Cool Calm Pete aged better than I remember 😂
Please give your Riff Raff take, I'd love to hear it.
You spelled Aes Rizzle wrong, but I'll give El P #2. Also El bodies M as a wordsmith too
Man I was listening to "8 Steps to Perfection" yesterday, last week, etc. Haven't listened to Em since I graduated HS in 2000 lol!
Love the shoutout for Eyedea. Was lowkey bummed (but I totally get why) when he wasn't mentioned in the original video, especially in the battle rap segment. E&A's self-titled album is one of my all time favorites.
Eyedea Forever ❤
He was a legitimately INCREDIBLE battle rapper
the freestyle game was on point with that dude
tip: Michael’s verse on the Eyedea/Slug/Sole track “Savior?” is a pretty special thing.
It’s a non-album track but there’s a bunch of copies on youtube, some hi-fidelity, some that sound like ass. Find a good clean one with proper bass before you settle in, and turn it up.
Slug goes first, Eyedea gets primetime, Sole closes it out.
@@frozennorth3426 nice. I’ll have to check that out.
Here to share and indulge in the El-P fandom!!!
I wouldn't call it fandom, it's love for the culture he is a part of and contributing to.
@@fireni328
What fandom means?
a group of fans of someone or something, especially very enthusiastic ones
Cannot believe i finally heard someone, even mention atmosphere existed.
I came into the video like "are you crazy? El-P is dope, but Aesop Rock is CRACKED." But you definitely got me on your side, I was not considering the rap culture argument, plus you name dropped Aesop, so that was cool.
Headed to check out the White Rapper video for more context and content.
I raise livestock and one of the most frustrating things about the cv19 ivermectin situation is that it became really hard to buy without getting dirty looks, but my sheep genuinely needed to be dewormed! It is also a legit medicine for a lot of other purposes including in humans (but not for gatdamn viruses!) but dear lord did the last few years send us back generations regarding medical knowledge.
Once upon a time, it just sat on the shelf to be taken, now it’s behind bars in the back. 🎉
EL-P’s Cancer For Cure is one of my top rap records of all time, it’s always great to hear him get his flowers.
With that being said, Imma always fiend for anybody who’s a rap nerd on any level to do a deep dive or any video on Aesop Rock because maaaaaaaan
"They're 12 year olds" nearly killed me. I was drinking coffee. Shoulda known better
This would be a fun hip hop chat to have. You super wrong. Great videos man
I'm so glad you finally mentioned Eyedea is amongst the biggest white rappers. "Glass" and "Birth of a fish" slap.
Loved to hear you mention Slug too
@Kobichan: Love the Slug mention as well. Just not sure who the image he posted in the video mentioning Slug was.....
@@nonamer29 Yeah, that was definitely not SLUG. Who edits these videos??
Dude, you had me writing down so many names throughout this video. As someone who has been wanting to get more into indie hip-hop, this video gave me a great place to start.
I'm happy to see El-P get some love and recognition. I am always trying to throw his name in the ring alongside the likes of Atmosphere and Aesop Rock whenever I'm involved in the time honored discussion of "white rappers who are actually good".
Aesop Rock is king of white rappers for me
Vinnie paz, ILL BILL, and necro don't get enough love either.
My fave white rappers are: Evidence, Grouch & Eligh, Aesop Rock, Anticon, Eyedea, Alchemist, The Beastie Boys, El P, Marlon Craft, R.A. The Rugged Man, Celph Titled, Vinnie Paz, Cage, Copywrite, MC Paul Barman, and Necro just to name a few.
Hey FD have you ever tried listening to Lil Ugly Mane? He's collabed with Denzel Curry since 2010 when raider klvn was still a thing and they are good friends. His Mista Thug Isolation project is a memphis revival sound project in an MF DOOM style character. But his later projects like Uneven Compromise, On Doing an Evil Deed Blues, Oblivion Access, and his most personal album Bedwetter are incredible, he is an amazingly versatile artist and I'd love to hear your opinion on him
Harddd disagree on EL-P's lyricism compared to Em's, I'll Sleep When You're Dead has some of the best written tracks in rap along with tracks like Deep Space 9mm
youre awesome man but a quarter of the video being an ad is crazy
Man's gotta get paid bro, use that skip forward function
I remember being in a sidewalk cipher with El-P some 25+ years ago. I was fortunate that we were mainly spitting four bars apiece; had we given everyone more bars, it would’ve become apparent that I had no business being in his lane 😂
The white rapper I always go back to is RA the Rugged Man.
Man RA the Rugged Man feels like an Eminem prototype, fast multisyllabic rhymes with edgy lyrics included.
“For My Upstairs Neighbour” has a better twist ending than “Dance with the Devil”. Fight me.