This matches our real world history. Humans took millennia to industrialize and when they did, the advances were extremely swift. People under 50 can remember a time before cell phones, personal computers, digital cameras and the internet.
Exactly. The Medieval era for example goes from 500 to 1450 a.C more or less. And although you see differences between the extremes of the period, you barely can distinguish the year 1000 from 1300 a.C which is the difference between the Conquest and the modern timeline.
You have a point. When it's a book and we read through it in short period of time we tend to forget how slow technology actaully proress in our real world.
Uh 1300 has one of the largest changes in medieval dress in a manner that they are changing styles every handful of years. The invention of the button revolutionizes clothing.
@Alejojojo6 That's not at all true. 1300 had more advanced castles, much more advanced armor for knights in plate, a increase in the urban class and towns, more urbanization, better farming techniques, and more centralized kingdoms. You would be able to tell the difference easily if you know about each era
@als3022 I think you may have missed my point. I certainly didn't suggest that humanity made no forward movement. The world looks extremely different now than in the 80s which is an incredibly short period. I'm a millennial and I didn't grow up with cell phones. But, how long did humanity use corded phones before them? There are people of voting age who have never touched a corded phone.
Excellent points. I think there are two other things that contributed: 1. Valyria was highly magically advanced. They probably focused more on developing magic than technology. When the Doom happened, a lot of their knowledge died with them 2. The Maesters are deliberately keeping knowledge to themselves. They don't want most people to be able to read and write. They don't want books to be easily copied. They want to be people's only source of knowledge Valyria had it's knowledge concentrated in one spot, and it all went up in flames. Now Euron is close to striking Old Town. Will the Citadel meet a similar fate?
I always figured their lack of societal progress had something to do with the people setting themselves back with their constant warring and looting. In Essos the Darthraki burned entire civilizations along with it great knowledge, and the Valyrian's did it before them. Westeros was in a constant state of war before the conquest. The Doom of Valyria also destroyed so much technological marvels and valyrian knowledge. Similar to the Dark Ages after the fall of Rome.
War boosts technological progress in most cases actually due to both sides pushing boundaries for new technologies and strategies to one up each other. Even before industrial warfare and firearms.
@@slovakiaballif24 war boosted technological ways to murder each other. Like the Atom Bomb was created in the wake of World War II. Even still you need something of a stable society to push for these ideals creations. Something that’s difficult to do when your city is being burned. Most innovations are pushed based on societal needs. Poor health and hygiene led to the creation of the Aquaducts and sewerage system.
@@slovakiaballif24 More often then not war boost technological ways to kill each other, in a bloody arms race. Ex. The Atom Bomb was created with the escalation of WWII. Even then you have to have a stable Homefront society to innovate and launch these new ideas. The war did not make it too the US mainland (minus Pearl Harbor). Hard to think about innovation when you have the Darthaki or the Valyrian dragon lords in your back yard burning down your city; with it hundreds of years of knowledge, and carrying the people off to slavery. What mainly drives innovation is the needs of the society. Poor health, bad hygiene & cleanliness led to the creation of the Aqueducts and sewage system. The need to harness food for a growing population without the need to migrate and hunt, led to farming. Plague and Outbreak often leads to advancements in medicine.
@@thegreatpage5912 Which still poses a question. While we can easily justify the general lack of advancement at a glance, Westeros has something real-life Europe did not: an adjacent society entirely dedicated to knowledge. The Maesters are supposed to be thousands in numbers, with enough sway to embed themselves in every corner of the country regardless of the political situation, and a mission to collect and research knowledge. The Hell have they been doing for Millennia? Their order is so old the founding date has been lost, and we know they used to tour Valyria before the Doom. Sure Europe had early universities, and scholars did travel, but nowhere near to the degree the Citadel and Maesters.
We tend to forget that the Hunter-gatherer era was 300 000 years long, the neolithic era about 5000 years long and the Medieval Period is almost 1000 years. In the world of Westeros, the Conquest started in the year 0 (year of the conquest) and the story is set up in 300 A.C (after conquest). In comparison, thats like Europe in the year 1000 a.C and 1300 a.C, not a lot changed in the Medieval world in those 300 years. Same is expected for Westeros.
Something that is also often forgotten is how *massively* lucky (or unlucky, YMMV) the first real-world nation to industrialise - the UK - really was. Scientists had known about the mechanics of steam energy for centuries, but saw no practical use for it. Who would ever need an expensive machine that crudely repeated the same motion over and over? But the UK not only had that need (their textile industry requiring just that), it also had the resources to power these machines (high-grade coal) in quantities that could scale up the process. In addition, labour wasn't that cheap (in contrast to e.g. Imperial China, the Mughal Empire or the Roman Empire, all very advanced pre-industrial societies), so machines could be economically competitive.
There's a parallel debate about whether the Roman Empire could have had an industrial revolution had history been slightly different. Some say it would never have been possible, others hold that it mgiht have done with only small changes or a little bit more time. Author Helen Dale wrote a two-part novel based on the idea called Kingdom Of The Wicked, although it focussed more on social and legal matters (the latter her area of expertise) rather than technology itself. As for Westeros (or rather the whole of "Planetos"), theres' a few unique factors in play. The long and irregular winters would slow progress by forcing societies into survival mode, with a high casualty rate. For much of GoT history, magic was a powerful and practical force, which would replace technology and absorb a lot of the limited intellectual labour effort available (why be an engineer when you can be a magician?). Lastly, in Essos (which accounts for much of the world's economy) slavery was and is universal, and it's thought that the availability of cheap human labour discourages the invention of mechanical labour, which, in it's early stages, is often unreliable, expensive and limited in capability and versatility. It's thought that the latter factor might be one of the principle reasons for the Roman Empire never developing more advanced technology despite having many thinkers capabl of inventing it.
Short answer: Westeros isn't industrialized yet because GRRM didn't want it to be. If we search for the in-world reasons though, I think it's just too early. The last Long Night was a reset point, it occurred 6000-4000 BC. The fact that they themselves cannot precisely pinpoint that time means that the most of the human knowledge was generally lost at that time. Around 4700 BC, so not that long after the Long Night, Valyrian Freehold removed its main competitor, Old Empire of Ghis, and dominated the world until 102 BC. Since this was an empire based on slavery, they literally had no need or incentive for improving technology. This is what people don't get about Rome: Rome wouldn't bring technological civilization, as some people claim, they had slave-based economy, they didn't need technology. Same situation with Valyria. So the time starts again after the destruction of Valyria, events of the war of the five kings take place just around 400 years after the destruction of Valyria. If the destruction of Valyria is the end of their Antiquity, however long it lasted, their Middle Ages just begun 400 years ago. It's just not enough time for the development of technology to reach industrial era. Also: people didn't live in the constant fear of the Long Night: the events of the Long Night were all but forgotten during the events of ASOIAF, in the books nearly nobody have ever seen the Others, in the show they obviously made them more common, still, before the actual attack of the Others nobody considered them as real.
If you cannot predict the length of the seasons, you cannot properly plan how much food to stockpile before winter. Even if they knew, there's an upper limit of how long you can store before food starts going bad and you're not benefitting from stockpiling. It's not that winter is long that's particularly the issue, it's that it's inconsistent. Except for the very few elites, everyone is in a save for winter - survive winter cycle. Except for military/related military production and prostitution, there is little for commoners to do apart from farming/fishing and food related logistics. Commoners work to save for winter, lords tax the farmers and enforce their rule with their militaries, and even in periods without war there is almost guaranteed to be a famine once every 10 years. A complete lack of food surplus means that the population has little ability to innovate or take risks doing things that have never been done before. If you think outside of the box, you're almost guaranteeing your death
I'm from a country without winter ( or any natural disaster in general ) and the notion of having to stock up food for xxx lenght of time or you die is super scary and umimaginable. Love your point of view on this btw. Something I as a script writer forgot to think about completely.
There is a simple answer to this: no one can boil potatoes properly and the only woman who could was killed and eaten by wildlings. Industrialisation started in Europe after potatoes became common. Capitalism is of course the true enabler but food is the basic fuel.
There's a few key differences with our world. Like the Maesters who seem to be controlling every domain of science and technology. Westeros is also NOT densely populated. The Targaryens remaining stagnant is in their advantage due to Dragons. If you have fighter jets, you don't want your subjects to devellop tanks or anti-aircraft technology themselves. GoT is darker and deadlier than the regular middle ages so science can be slower. Also, the middle ages are really long and GoT doesn't have an absurdly long timeline. Then consider that industrialization is NOT something that happens naturally in the growing process of any civilisation. It's a step were a lot of civilisations got stuck and couldn't move past. Like China, Japan or Rome. Industrialisation takes a ton of luck and inginuity to figure out.
I saw a video by Preston Jacobs on RUclips a while ago where he argued GRRM wanted ASOIAF to be Marxist in terms of economic and social development and tbh I see this argument! Dragons and magic are so powerful that they keep the ruling class in power for a long time, and so the feudal/monarchical system doesn't change. During the "modern" main story, dragons are (mostly) gone and so conflicts require technological innovation for one side to have an advantage over another, as is the case in our real history. By the end of the books, though the show doesn't do this, we are meant to assume that the only thing which will stop the Long Night is all of Westeros coming together to defeat a common enemy. We are also shown repeatedly by GRRM that monarchy and feudal conflict is very bad for the people, and characters like Dany talk about not "stopping the wheel" of feudalism, but "breaking" it. Preston Jacobs argued that the actual book ending of ASOIAF is meant to be the weakening or the end of monarchy and the introduction of some kind of democracy, as well as centralising the Seven Kingdoms into one state (even Joffrey talks about this in season 1 with an army just for the crown). This would also be the result of, and would itself encourage, economic development out of feudalism and into mercantilism, proto-capitalism, capitalism etc etc
Westeros has eight thousand years of history and never got more advanced than feudalism. For as much as GRRM is good at plotting and character writing, he's just as bad of a world builder. No flora or fauna would survive years long winters. Everything would die in the North. The ironborn should've been destroyed by the Lords of the main land, or they should have starved as they don't sow, or have trees to build ships. If you analyze the world of ice and fire critically, you'll realize a lot of stuff doesn't make any fucking sense.
The Medieval era for example goes from 500 to 1450 a.C more or less. And although you see differences between the extremes of the period, you barely can distinguish the year 1000 from 1300 a.C which is the difference between the Conquest and the modern timeline. And there is evolution, the First men and Andals do have bronce tech and are more similar to Antiquity era of our earth same as Valyria looking more Greek/Roman/Early Mongol than medieval. What I do agree is the Houses, most live thousands of years when thats quite hard to do. There would be thousands of members of each house if that was the case. If winters lasted 10 years you know they either have not super extreme winters with seasonal mid growth or the plants are evolved to resist such time. If plants in our earth have resisted nuclear winters that last over 50 years, there can be plants that resist 10 years. Specially seeds are extremely resistant.
? Literally what for one it’s a fantasy world a TON isn’t gonna make sense cause their is literally magic involved, the ironborn are raider and pillagers and you realize transporting materials exists… as does trading and so on. And for the north, you realize once again it’s a fantasy world but people get this in real life live in cold places and rely on fish and limited resources to live which GRRM shows in his books if you had half a mind to pay attention and use critical thinking skills
@@thesunflyer Yeah, ASOIAF's religions are also terrible. Some of the worst I've seen in fantasy. They're all boring, bland and uninspired. The names of the gods are also terrible. Drowned god, old gods, fat god, lord of light. Lol.
Westeros shouldn't have reached industrial revolution by now. The Doom took place 102 years before the conquest, signaling the end of ancient history. From there you only have around 400 years of history up to the present moment..."dark ages" period if you will...it took humanity around 1000 years to go through medieval times. Westeros is 600 years to go in medieval history.
Westeros is close to Africa in terms of risk to the individual at any given time. Rule under King jaehaerys might be Botswana, better than average but still not long enough to get to steam power
I wanted to write a fanfic where somehow they overcome the difficulties due to crazy weather and continue to advance to a era simillar to a modern era. Dragons remained in this AU but Targaryens were overthrown due to modern weapons but a cadet branch survived who returned to westeros after things cooled down. In modern era Targaryen family run a theme park simillar to Jurassic Park.
Littlefinger put it best... Chaos is a Ladder... everyone wants to climb it, but in order to do so you must drag those above you down. Society in this mode will never progress past feudalism, might makes right cannot develop an internal combustion engine. Too much cooperation over long periods of peacetime is required for such a feat
Maybe because they have magic? Like the existence of it made it so that they relied on it so much that they never really needed technology. Prolific use of blood magic is what made Old Valyria so advanced and futuristic compared to Westeros. I honestly see magic as analogous to technology in ASOIAF's world.
Note: I don't know about Habsburgs in the west but the Austrian branch is still chilling (they still live around the region, mostly in Hungary. The older members of the family give interviews and one of the youngest ones is a car racer.)
I think Westeross being in constant survival Mode would speed up theyre technological Advancement, not slowing it down. After all, when everything already is safe and prosperous, there is no need for Improvements
Do the books hint at the availability of fossile fuels at some point? Without coal the industrial revolution wouldn't have happened in our world as well. How old is Planetos?
It is probably as old as ours. There is plenty of evidence of evolution. Humans, Giants, children of the forest and other intelligent species come from the same ancestors.
Having played Final Fantasy X years before reading A Song of Ice and Fire, I often like to draw comparison between Valyria and Zanarkand. A technologically advanced city destroyed in ancient times by Sin, who is basically a physical embodiment of the "medieval stasis" trope prevalent in George's, Tolkien's and many other fantasy worlds.
One thing to consider is the industrial revolution started in Britain in the 1840s after they prohibited all slavery. There was suddenly a demand for labor saving devices as all your workers have to be paid now. Westeros already having prohibited slavery seems like they should have started industrialization. Unless their common folk were treated as serfs perhaps and basically owned by their land lord.
In my opinion Westeros pretty well shows what would Medival Europe develop into without the two biggest changes in early modern technology gunpowder weaponry and the printing press.
The problem is as is established Westeros was in perpetual conflict with each others kingdom for thousands of years, and combined with harsh winters this kept stunting the development of westeros because so many men kept dying and so much was spent on warfare and just surviving.When Aegons conquest happened peace was mostly achieved, but this made things worse during warfare as when war came now all the kingdom was having to get involved, the dance of the dragons for example killed tens of thousands and left the riverlands badly damaged while food later ran scarce due to the men having left to fight rather then gather crops, and as populations grew winters kept affecting and hampering them, the North for example is perpetually stalled because of its climate and the winter affecting it the most.The citadel is also hoarding knowledge and the maesters clearly don’t want people getting ideas of their own, so is deliberately preventing society from modernising to keep knowledge under their control and lords dependent on them.
I thought it was interesting with the high sparrow in the tv series where there was sort of a class struggle against feudal society. Similar to maybe to the Lutheran struggle against the catholic church (which was non violent) or the French Revolution. I don't know how much of that was in the books.
You make some great points, but I think the one that was glossed over quickly, was that the story takes place in the Middle Ages, which is anywhere from 500 to 1500 AD. The Industrial Revolution took place between 1760 to 1840. So there is a huge period between when the story occurs and when the IR starts. Secondly, the Targarians would also have absolutely no interest in the Industrial Revolution, as innovations could lead to technology that could harm their source of power, namely the dragons. One could also consider Westeros a bit like Japan, they may have traded with the surrounding places, but they mostly lived in a world of isolationism. Japan still had their feudal society until they accepted trade from the Portuguese and other European powers. And then they caught up really quickly.
There was a video on this topic that I saw years ago. It has disappeared from the internet. I think it was along the lines of why dragons keep Westeros in a feudal state. One of the great mysteries. Dunno if it was needwriter but it seems to have disappeared from existence
Decentralization isn't at all a bad thing for technological advancement and having a supreme ruler is probably a bad thing given everything we know about how tech actually unfolds.
Great video. I too think the an unstable political and economical system would be the biggest factor in stalling technology. Westeros being one continent sized country is also a problem. A lot of the industrial revolution started in Europe, because Europe was made of several stable countries. Granted, they often fought with each other, but they were individual pockets of mostly stable economies and culture. If Westeros was broken into 4-7 stable countries, and didn't experience any of the supernatural events, and had a more stable climate, then I think they would've been able to progress forward. Also, the fact they're still stuck in a feudal system, is reminiscent of Japan, which was essentially stuck in a feudal system, until outside forces literally forced them into the modern system. That sounds like a very western focus opinion, but from what I can tell, that's essentially what happened. From what I can tell it Essos, they populations are too scattered to form individual stable governments, and a form more of a city state system, similar to the polis system. Essos has less of a feudal system, but they still face many of the same supernatural and climate issues as Westeros.
Academic consensus among historians is that industrialization is not a strictly technological process, and requires many different social conditions and social advancements in order to be possible for a certain society. That's why it was not really possible for Classical Greece or Egypt with primitive steam engines to have developed that technology into an industrial revolution. Valuing social mobility is one requirement, for example, and high levels of social mobility require many other different social innovations. Haven't watched the video to see if this is addressed but wanted to put this out there
"... Everything was so good and great" exceeeept for the hundred of thousands of people the Valyrians killed in their conquests and took from across the world to be enslaved and worked to death in their mines
I'm in love with this universe i made a miniature Lannisport and Casterly rock with polymer clay, glass and Styrofoam based on this picture, i used nail lion decorations to make the little banners 🏰hear me roar!🦁
There are a number of aspects: -lack of bougiousie middle class en commercial interrests or further exploration: The rise of a middle class, the rise of trade interrests and exploration for that purpose was a big part of pulling Europe from the medievan era to the rennaisance -Exclusivity of scholarship and lack of the printing press: learning is relativly sellective to a number of lords and mostly maesters, there isnt a very broad intellectual class. -No need for cannons when dragons are around. Trade cities like Braavos however do look like they are on that crossing point from medieval to Rennaisance, the Collossos of Braavos is something aking to Michelangelo's David. Perhaps for Westeros its also that "you wont best what magic has build", or feel that you could rival great buildings like the hightower or the wall with any of your current technoligy even.
I feel like the size and timeline of Westeros is greatly exaggerated. The continent is probably just the size of western Europe and its recorded history is probably much shorter than it's actually made up to be.
Another to mention is the unstable relationship with people, cities and countries within GOT as we see several houses, cities to people throughout the series that still have grudges even after thousands of years No normal person would keep shoveling money, energy and soldiers to fight another houses because they killed someone from their house hundreds to thousands of years ago Imagine countries doing this in got, one would attack their harbor and destroy a town or city, then hold that anger for thousands of years just to attack them and keep this pointless fight going to the point it’s not even about what the issue was but getting back at their rival That is another reason why the world hasn’t industrialized because the people in charge have their own grudges that they wish to dish out then forgetting the long ago problem and making up I honestly thought got would take a route like gears of war, the two having a very similar world were it’s in near constant war and petty battles because of a long ago problems still being held But with gears of war, they used the opportunity of war to industrialized and become more advanced then the real world and ending all conflicts because the last remaining superpower had won the last war and experience a era of peace like the end of Roberts rebellion So one took the opportunity to grow and become more advanced then even us, with the other being stuck in a time warp and not taking the chance to grow in war or in peace times
The fashion absolutely did change. Not sure what you are talking about with that. If you look at Kingslanding in HOTD the maids are dressed very conservatively in long sleeves and high neck dresses. In GOT they are in halter dresses with barebacks. Look at how a young lady dresses in HOTD like Rhaena or Baela compared to Margaery in GOT. It's similar to the pace of chance of our own fashion. Plus we took forever to get to the industrial revolution and only then did we speed up in advancement. They actually do advance in weaponry and other things. People complaining just haven't paid attention to these details and then b!tch about it not happening suggesting GRRM is a fool. Oh the irony.
tv show wise: because they killed dany, after that speech she gave in KL about breaking the wheel and counquering the world i believe that could be a way to change the course of the whole world of ASOIAF
Mind you that depending on which part of medieval period GRRM would have wanted to portray from the aesthetics point of view would dictate the kind of fashion and technology they would use. from 1000 - 1300 not a huge amount of change happened as far as warfare was concerned, with only small adjustments, but overall consistent. For example mail armour (though changed slightly in appearance over time was overall fairly consistent); spears, battleaxes, lances, bows and crossbows were pretty much dominant battlefield weapons, while swords and daggers (which were never used as primary field weapons and only as sidearms and/or in civilian environments) also remained fairly consistent in their overall style and design. But if you start from 1300 - 1500 then a lot of changes both in the technology and appearance would have changed quite a lot even in those 200 years. for example the introduction and development of firearms; rapid development of armour and evolution of full plated harness of various forms; reduction of use of larger sized shields by infantry and cavalry (in case of Western Europe primarily, Eastern Europe and Middle East still used shields frequently); increase in a variety of concussive weapons (maces, war hammers, pollaxes etc) that specialised in armoured fighting; increase in longer reach polearms on the battlefield (halberds, bills, glaives, pikes etc); also cannons were becoming more common at this time in place of trebuchets and similar siege engines. So in a way, GoT (the show at least) is actually a bit all over the place if we were to try and mirror the designs of arms and armour in parallel to irl medieval Europe.
We have to consider that in this world, there is magic, ancient gods and a lot of climate disasters. It is possible to think that the magic of the children of the forest or of Valyria supplied the need for industrialization.
Well in real life rome was closer to industrialization then any other civilisation because rome had prototype steam devices and even some blueprints But since rome fell and the ignorance of ots enemies theh burnt the knowledge the roman had learnt for hundreds of years so basically humanity had to start over. For example of you get an early medieval army against a roman army at its peak the roman army despite being much older would will win and have superior tactics, technology, weapons, armor etc It wouldn't be until medieval Europe having porper knights to have a chance against roman soldiers The same with the world of game of thrones, long ago they had an empire called Valyria that was far more advanced the any other civilisation and thus had more scientific progress. But with the doom of valeria that was lost and even hundreds of years later no one can match the old power of Valyria Many civilisation from our history had potential to industrialise the main issue is that no civilisation last forever and when it falls its knowledge is usually destroyed by its lesser and more ignorant foes
A Song Of Ice And Fire is probably my favorite fantasy series including the prequel novels but I still find Dune and LOTR to be even better plus GRRM taking way too long to finish the main series
So In the books it is implied that the Valyrians, (Targeryan), have biological advantages compared to other humans, for example it is mentioned that they hardly get sick. Perhaps this is the reason they did not become deformed because of incest. Incest happens to maintain the fashion of riding dragons in the family.
Interesting video. I guess the series is set and will conclude in a fictional middle ages. It hasn't reached the Early Modern period yet. Roughly, Children of the Forest(Palaeolithic?) First Men(bronze age?), Andals(Iron age into Early middle ages?), Targaryen Invasion(High middle ages?) Start of the series(Late middle ages?). The spread and development of new technology throughout these eras are incredibly slow. Who knows :/
One of the first Things I immidiatly noted when HotD aired was that they were technological and astethical wise on the Level as in Got, wich made it harder to suspend my Disbelieve
"Your grace, a second dragon has hit the Planetos Trade Center"
bruh
Bruh💀
Bruh 💀💀
This matches our real world history. Humans took millennia to industrialize and when they did, the advances were extremely swift. People under 50 can remember a time before cell phones, personal computers, digital cameras and the internet.
Exactly. The Medieval era for example goes from 500 to 1450 a.C more or less. And although you see differences between the extremes of the period, you barely can distinguish the year 1000 from 1300 a.C which is the difference between the Conquest and the modern timeline.
You have a point. When it's a book and we read through it in short period of time we tend to forget how slow technology actaully proress in our real world.
Uh 1300 has one of the largest changes in medieval dress in a manner that they are changing styles every handful of years. The invention of the button revolutionizes clothing.
@Alejojojo6 That's not at all true. 1300 had more advanced castles, much more advanced armor for knights in plate, a increase in the urban class and towns, more urbanization, better farming techniques, and more centralized kingdoms. You would be able to tell the difference easily if you know about each era
@als3022 I think you may have missed my point. I certainly didn't suggest that humanity made no forward movement. The world looks extremely different now than in the 80s which is an incredibly short period. I'm a millennial and I didn't grow up with cell phones. But, how long did humanity use corded phones before them? There are people of voting age who have never touched a corded phone.
Excellent points. I think there are two other things that contributed:
1. Valyria was highly magically advanced. They probably focused more on developing magic than technology. When the Doom happened, a lot of their knowledge died with them
2. The Maesters are deliberately keeping knowledge to themselves. They don't want most people to be able to read and write. They don't want books to be easily copied. They want to be people's only source of knowledge
Valyria had it's knowledge concentrated in one spot, and it all went up in flames. Now Euron is close to striking Old Town. Will the Citadel meet a similar fate?
“ A Lannister always pays his bills on time “ House Lannister
“A Stark always takes a blinker”
@@collingoggins7589 “ Summer is Over! “ House Stark
I always figured their lack of societal progress had something to do with the people setting themselves back with their constant warring and looting. In Essos the Darthraki burned entire civilizations along with it great knowledge, and the Valyrian's did it before them. Westeros was in a constant state of war before the conquest. The Doom of Valyria also destroyed so much technological marvels and valyrian knowledge. Similar to the Dark Ages after the fall of Rome.
Imagined all the great books that were burned during the sack of Bagdad / In Rome / in Alexandria :(((
War boosts technological progress in most cases actually due to both sides pushing boundaries for new technologies and strategies to one up each other. Even before industrial warfare and firearms.
@@slovakiaballif24 war boosted technological ways to murder each other. Like the Atom Bomb was created in the wake of World War II. Even still you need something of a stable society to push for these ideals creations. Something that’s difficult to do when your city is being burned.
Most innovations are pushed based on societal needs. Poor health and hygiene led to the creation of the Aquaducts and sewerage system.
@@slovakiaballif24 More often then not war boost technological ways to kill each other, in a bloody arms race. Ex. The Atom Bomb was created with the escalation of WWII. Even then you have to have a stable Homefront society to innovate and launch these new ideas. The war did not make it too the US mainland (minus Pearl Harbor). Hard to think about innovation when you have the Darthaki or the Valyrian dragon lords in your back yard burning down your city; with it hundreds of years of knowledge, and carrying the people off to slavery.
What mainly drives innovation is the needs of the society. Poor health, bad hygiene & cleanliness led to the creation of the Aqueducts and sewage system. The need to harness food for a growing population without the need to migrate and hunt, led to farming. Plague and Outbreak often leads to advancements in medicine.
@@thegreatpage5912 Which still poses a question. While we can easily justify the general lack of advancement at a glance, Westeros has something real-life Europe did not: an adjacent society entirely dedicated to knowledge. The Maesters are supposed to be thousands in numbers, with enough sway to embed themselves in every corner of the country regardless of the political situation, and a mission to collect and research knowledge. The Hell have they been doing for Millennia? Their order is so old the founding date has been lost, and we know they used to tour Valyria before the Doom. Sure Europe had early universities, and scholars did travel, but nowhere near to the degree the Citadel and Maesters.
We tend to forget that the Hunter-gatherer era was 300 000 years long, the neolithic era about 5000 years long and the Medieval Period is almost 1000 years. In the world of Westeros, the Conquest started in the year 0 (year of the conquest) and the story is set up in 300 A.C (after conquest). In comparison, thats like Europe in the year 1000 a.C and 1300 a.C, not a lot changed in the Medieval world in those 300 years. Same is expected for Westeros.
except the medieval period of westeros would have started with the andal invasion between 8-4 thousands years ago
@@durrangodsgrief6503 Nah, that would have been our bronze age.
Westeros will remaind in medieval age until the final book release I guess haha
Yes, it was the bronze age for the first men, but it was the iron age For the andals. @Martin_Daniel
@@Martin_Daniel nope andal invasion would have brought an end to the bronze age as the andals were essentially a proto-medieval knight culture
“ We Don’t Grow Lettuce “ House Greyjoy
“ I’m so High “ House Arryn
Something that is also often forgotten is how *massively* lucky (or unlucky, YMMV) the first real-world nation to industrialise - the UK - really was. Scientists had known about the mechanics of steam energy for centuries, but saw no practical use for it. Who would ever need an expensive machine that crudely repeated the same motion over and over? But the UK not only had that need (their textile industry requiring just that), it also had the resources to power these machines (high-grade coal) in quantities that could scale up the process. In addition, labour wasn't that cheap (in contrast to e.g. Imperial China, the Mughal Empire or the Roman Empire, all very advanced pre-industrial societies), so machines could be economically competitive.
Yeah we love to talk about the Roman Empire technology too. Love your comment
There's a parallel debate about whether the Roman Empire could have had an industrial revolution had history been slightly different. Some say it would never have been possible, others hold that it mgiht have done with only small changes or a little bit more time. Author Helen Dale wrote a two-part novel based on the idea called Kingdom Of The Wicked, although it focussed more on social and legal matters (the latter her area of expertise) rather than technology itself.
As for Westeros (or rather the whole of "Planetos"), theres' a few unique factors in play. The long and irregular winters would slow progress by forcing societies into survival mode, with a high casualty rate. For much of GoT history, magic was a powerful and practical force, which would replace technology and absorb a lot of the limited intellectual labour effort available (why be an engineer when you can be a magician?). Lastly, in Essos (which accounts for much of the world's economy) slavery was and is universal, and it's thought that the availability of cheap human labour discourages the invention of mechanical labour, which, in it's early stages, is often unreliable, expensive and limited in capability and versatility. It's thought that the latter factor might be one of the principle reasons for the Roman Empire never developing more advanced technology despite having many thinkers capabl of inventing it.
Short answer: Westeros isn't industrialized yet because GRRM didn't want it to be. If we search for the in-world reasons though, I think it's just too early. The last Long Night was a reset point, it occurred 6000-4000 BC. The fact that they themselves cannot precisely pinpoint that time means that the most of the human knowledge was generally lost at that time. Around 4700 BC, so not that long after the Long Night, Valyrian Freehold removed its main competitor, Old Empire of Ghis, and dominated the world until 102 BC. Since this was an empire based on slavery, they literally had no need or incentive for improving technology. This is what people don't get about Rome: Rome wouldn't bring technological civilization, as some people claim, they had slave-based economy, they didn't need technology. Same situation with Valyria. So the time starts again after the destruction of Valyria, events of the war of the five kings take place just around 400 years after the destruction of Valyria. If the destruction of Valyria is the end of their Antiquity, however long it lasted, their Middle Ages just begun 400 years ago. It's just not enough time for the development of technology to reach industrial era.
Also: people didn't live in the constant fear of the Long Night: the events of the Long Night were all but forgotten during the events of ASOIAF, in the books nearly nobody have ever seen the Others, in the show they obviously made them more common, still, before the actual attack of the Others nobody considered them as real.
“ I’d rather be fishing “ House Tully
“ Summer is Over! “ House Stark
“ We’re pissed off “ House Baratheon
If you cannot predict the length of the seasons, you cannot properly plan how much food to stockpile before winter. Even if they knew, there's an upper limit of how long you can store before food starts going bad and you're not benefitting from stockpiling. It's not that winter is long that's particularly the issue, it's that it's inconsistent. Except for the very few elites, everyone is in a save for winter - survive winter cycle. Except for military/related military production and prostitution, there is little for commoners to do apart from farming/fishing and food related logistics. Commoners work to save for winter, lords tax the farmers and enforce their rule with their militaries, and even in periods without war there is almost guaranteed to be a famine once every 10 years.
A complete lack of food surplus means that the population has little ability to innovate or take risks doing things that have never been done before. If you think outside of the box, you're almost guaranteeing your death
I'm from a country without winter ( or any natural disaster in general ) and the notion of having to stock up food for xxx lenght of time or you die is super scary and umimaginable. Love your point of view on this btw. Something I as a script writer forgot to think about completely.
There is a simple answer to this: no one can boil potatoes properly and the only woman who could was killed and eaten by wildlings. Industrialisation started in Europe after potatoes became common. Capitalism is of course the true enabler but food is the basic fuel.
The world before french fries must be so sad man
There's a few key differences with our world. Like the Maesters who seem to be controlling every domain of science and technology. Westeros is also NOT densely populated. The Targaryens remaining stagnant is in their advantage due to Dragons. If you have fighter jets, you don't want your subjects to devellop tanks or anti-aircraft technology themselves. GoT is darker and deadlier than the regular middle ages so science can be slower. Also, the middle ages are really long and GoT doesn't have an absurdly long timeline. Then consider that industrialization is NOT something that happens naturally in the growing process of any civilisation. It's a step were a lot of civilisations got stuck and couldn't move past. Like China, Japan or Rome. Industrialisation takes a ton of luck and inginuity to figure out.
Once the battery died and the F word started coming out, this video got awesome lol
@@benjitorralva LOL I should write that in description, fast forward to after the battery died guys 🤣
It was good and got better 😂😂😂
I saw a video by Preston Jacobs on RUclips a while ago where he argued GRRM wanted ASOIAF to be Marxist in terms of economic and social development and tbh I see this argument! Dragons and magic are so powerful that they keep the ruling class in power for a long time, and so the feudal/monarchical system doesn't change. During the "modern" main story, dragons are (mostly) gone and so conflicts require technological innovation for one side to have an advantage over another, as is the case in our real history.
By the end of the books, though the show doesn't do this, we are meant to assume that the only thing which will stop the Long Night is all of Westeros coming together to defeat a common enemy. We are also shown repeatedly by GRRM that monarchy and feudal conflict is very bad for the people, and characters like Dany talk about not "stopping the wheel" of feudalism, but "breaking" it.
Preston Jacobs argued that the actual book ending of ASOIAF is meant to be the weakening or the end of monarchy and the introduction of some kind of democracy, as well as centralising the Seven Kingdoms into one state (even Joffrey talks about this in season 1 with an army just for the crown). This would also be the result of, and would itself encourage, economic development out of feudalism and into mercantilism, proto-capitalism, capitalism etc etc
Westeros has eight thousand years of history and never got more advanced than feudalism. For as much as GRRM is good at plotting and character writing, he's just as bad of a world builder. No flora or fauna would survive years long winters. Everything would die in the North. The ironborn should've been destroyed by the Lords of the main land, or they should have starved as they don't sow, or have trees to build ships. If you analyze the world of ice and fire critically, you'll realize a lot of stuff doesn't make any fucking sense.
The Medieval era for example goes from 500 to 1450 a.C more or less. And although you see differences between the extremes of the period, you barely can distinguish the year 1000 from 1300 a.C which is the difference between the Conquest and the modern timeline. And there is evolution, the First men and Andals do have bronce tech and are more similar to Antiquity era of our earth same as Valyria looking more Greek/Roman/Early Mongol than medieval.
What I do agree is the Houses, most live thousands of years when thats quite hard to do. There would be thousands of members of each house if that was the case. If winters lasted 10 years you know they either have not super extreme winters with seasonal mid growth or the plants are evolved to resist such time. If plants in our earth have resisted nuclear winters that last over 50 years, there can be plants that resist 10 years. Specially seeds are extremely resistant.
@@Alejojojo6 no we see that the era before the targs arrive is just straight up medieval Europe and that was for like a good thousand years
? Literally what for one it’s a fantasy world a TON isn’t gonna make sense cause their is literally magic involved, the ironborn are raider and pillagers and you realize transporting materials exists… as does trading and so on. And for the north, you realize once again it’s a fantasy world but people get this in real life live in cold places and rely on fish and limited resources to live which GRRM shows in his books if you had half a mind to pay attention and use critical thinking skills
hahaha doesn't make any sense but a lot of fun to read and we have great conversation :)
@@thesunflyer Yeah, ASOIAF's religions are also terrible. Some of the worst I've seen in fantasy. They're all boring, bland and uninspired. The names of the gods are also terrible. Drowned god, old gods, fat god, lord of light. Lol.
Westeros shouldn't have reached industrial revolution by now. The Doom took place 102 years before the conquest, signaling the end of ancient history. From there you only have around 400 years of history up to the present moment..."dark ages" period if you will...it took humanity around 1000 years to go through medieval times. Westeros is 600 years to go in medieval history.
Westeros is close to Africa in terms of risk to the individual at any given time. Rule under King jaehaerys might be Botswana, better than average but still not long enough to get to steam power
Westeros went far beyond industrialization, Storms End is a secret nuclear power plant, you know?
"Dragonpower" will be a unit of power. I'd love to see dragons vs fighter planes though
I wanted to write a fanfic where somehow they overcome the difficulties due to crazy weather and continue to advance to a era simillar to a modern era. Dragons remained in this AU but Targaryens were overthrown due to modern weapons but a cadet branch survived who returned to westeros after things cooled down. In modern era Targaryen family run a theme park simillar to Jurassic Park.
Littlefinger put it best... Chaos is a Ladder... everyone wants to climb it, but in order to do so you must drag those above you down. Society in this mode will never progress past feudalism, might makes right cannot develop an internal combustion engine. Too much cooperation over long periods of peacetime is required for such a feat
Maybe because they have magic? Like the existence of it made it so that they relied on it so much that they never really needed technology. Prolific use of blood magic is what made Old Valyria so advanced and futuristic compared to Westeros. I honestly see magic as analogous to technology in ASOIAF's world.
Note: I don't know about Habsburgs in the west but the Austrian branch is still chilling (they still live around the region, mostly in Hungary. The older members of the family give interviews and one of the youngest ones is a car racer.)
I think Westeross being in constant survival Mode would speed up theyre technological Advancement, not slowing it down.
After all, when everything already is safe and prosperous, there is no need for Improvements
Do the books hint at the availability of fossile fuels at some point? Without coal the industrial revolution wouldn't have happened in our world as well. How old is Planetos?
It is probably as old as ours. There is plenty of evidence of evolution. Humans, Giants, children of the forest and other intelligent species come from the same ancestors.
Having played Final Fantasy X years before reading A Song of Ice and Fire, I often like to draw comparison between Valyria and Zanarkand. A technologically advanced city destroyed in ancient times by Sin, who is basically a physical embodiment of the "medieval stasis" trope prevalent in George's, Tolkien's and many other fantasy worlds.
One thing to consider is the industrial revolution started in Britain in the 1840s after they prohibited all slavery.
There was suddenly a demand for labor saving devices as all your workers have to be paid now.
Westeros already having prohibited slavery seems like they should have started industrialization. Unless their common folk were treated as serfs perhaps and basically owned by their land lord.
Was not expecting the cute girl in this video on my nerdy hobby, nice change of pace though 😂
In my opinion Westeros pretty well shows what would Medival Europe develop into without the two biggest changes in early modern technology gunpowder weaponry and the printing press.
Awesome video, thanks for the insight. Subscribed!
People fail to think that every decade there is an apocalyptic winter
The problem is as is established Westeros was in perpetual conflict with each others kingdom for thousands of years, and combined with harsh winters this kept stunting the development of westeros because so many men kept dying and so much was spent on warfare and just surviving.When Aegons conquest happened peace was mostly achieved, but this made things worse during warfare as when war came now all the kingdom was having to get involved, the dance of the dragons for example killed tens of thousands and left the riverlands badly damaged while food later ran scarce due to the men having left to fight rather then gather crops, and as populations grew winters kept affecting and hampering them, the North for example is perpetually stalled because of its climate and the winter affecting it the most.The citadel is also hoarding knowledge and the maesters clearly don’t want people getting ideas of their own, so is deliberately preventing society from modernising to keep knowledge under their control and lords dependent on them.
I thought it was interesting with the high sparrow in the tv series where there was sort of a class struggle against feudal society. Similar to maybe to the Lutheran struggle against the catholic church (which was non violent) or the French Revolution. I don't know how much of that was in the books.
You make some great points, but I think the one that was glossed over quickly, was that the story takes place in the Middle Ages, which is anywhere from 500 to 1500 AD. The Industrial Revolution took place between 1760 to 1840. So there is a huge period between when the story occurs and when the IR starts. Secondly, the Targarians would also have absolutely no interest in the Industrial Revolution, as innovations could lead to technology that could harm their source of power, namely the dragons.
One could also consider Westeros a bit like Japan, they may have traded with the surrounding places, but they mostly lived in a world of isolationism. Japan still had their feudal society until they accepted trade from the Portuguese and other European powers. And then they caught up really quickly.
There was a video on this topic that I saw years ago. It has disappeared from the internet.
I think it was along the lines of why dragons keep Westeros in a feudal state. One of the great mysteries. Dunno if it was needwriter but it seems to have disappeared from existence
Decentralization isn't at all a bad thing for technological advancement and having a supreme ruler is probably a bad thing given everything we know about how tech actually unfolds.
Great video. I too think the an unstable political and economical system would be the biggest factor in stalling technology. Westeros being one continent sized country is also a problem. A lot of the industrial revolution started in Europe, because Europe was made of several stable countries. Granted, they often fought with each other, but they were individual pockets of mostly stable economies and culture. If Westeros was broken into 4-7 stable countries, and didn't experience any of the supernatural events, and had a more stable climate, then I think they would've been able to progress forward.
Also, the fact they're still stuck in a feudal system, is reminiscent of Japan, which was essentially stuck in a feudal system, until outside forces literally forced them into the modern system. That sounds like a very western focus opinion, but from what I can tell, that's essentially what happened.
From what I can tell it Essos, they populations are too scattered to form individual stable governments, and a form more of a city state system, similar to the polis system. Essos has less of a feudal system, but they still face many of the same supernatural and climate issues as Westeros.
Academic consensus among historians is that industrialization is not a strictly technological process, and requires many different social conditions and social advancements in order to be possible for a certain society. That's why it was not really possible for Classical Greece or Egypt with primitive steam engines to have developed that technology into an industrial revolution. Valuing social mobility is one requirement, for example, and high levels of social mobility require many other different social innovations. Haven't watched the video to see if this is addressed but wanted to put this out there
my theory is on the other side of the world its all high tech who ignore the primitive side of the world .
"... Everything was so good and great" exceeeept for the hundred of thousands of people the Valyrians killed in their conquests and took from across the world to be enslaved and worked to death in their mines
Targaryens=English people
@@AshikurRahmanRifat Romans are much better comparison
I'm in love with this universe i made a miniature Lannisport and Casterly rock with polymer clay, glass and Styrofoam based on this picture, i used nail lion decorations to make the little banners 🏰hear me roar!🦁
There are a number of aspects:
-lack of bougiousie middle class en commercial interrests or further exploration: The rise of a middle class, the rise of trade interrests and exploration for that purpose was a big part of pulling Europe from the medievan era to the rennaisance
-Exclusivity of scholarship and lack of the printing press: learning is relativly sellective to a number of lords and mostly maesters, there isnt a very broad intellectual class.
-No need for cannons when dragons are around.
Trade cities like Braavos however do look like they are on that crossing point from medieval to Rennaisance, the Collossos of Braavos is something aking to Michelangelo's David. Perhaps for Westeros its also that "you wont best what magic has build", or feel that you could rival great buildings like the hightower or the wall with any of your current technoligy even.
I feel like the size and timeline of Westeros is greatly exaggerated. The continent is probably just the size of western Europe and its recorded history is probably much shorter than it's actually made up to be.
The people saying "it's because Westeros is very unstable" are so unintelligent.
I like your style btw.
Another to mention is the unstable relationship with people, cities and countries within GOT as we see several houses, cities to people throughout the series that still have grudges even after thousands of years
No normal person would keep shoveling money, energy and soldiers to fight another houses because they killed someone from their house hundreds to thousands of years ago
Imagine countries doing this in got, one would attack their harbor and destroy a town or city, then hold that anger for thousands of years just to attack them and keep this pointless fight going to the point it’s not even about what the issue was but getting back at their rival
That is another reason why the world hasn’t industrialized because the people in charge have their own grudges that they wish to dish out then forgetting the long ago problem and making up
I honestly thought got would take a route like gears of war, the two having a very similar world were it’s in near constant war and petty battles because of a long ago problems still being held
But with gears of war, they used the opportunity of war to industrialized and become more advanced then the real world and ending all conflicts because the last remaining superpower had won the last war and experience a era of peace like the end of Roberts rebellion
So one took the opportunity to grow and become more advanced then even us, with the other being stuck in a time warp and not taking the chance to grow in war or in peace times
The fashion absolutely did change. Not sure what you are talking about with that. If you look at Kingslanding in HOTD the maids are dressed very conservatively in long sleeves and high neck dresses. In GOT they are in halter dresses with barebacks. Look at how a young lady dresses in HOTD like Rhaena or Baela compared to Margaery in GOT. It's similar to the pace of chance of our own fashion. Plus we took forever to get to the industrial revolution and only then did we speed up in advancement. They actually do advance in weaponry and other things. People complaining just haven't paid attention to these details and then b!tch about it not happening suggesting GRRM is a fool. Oh the irony.
tv show wise: because they killed dany, after that speech she gave in KL about breaking the wheel and counquering the world i believe that could be a way to change the course of the whole world of ASOIAF
Mind you that depending on which part of medieval period GRRM would have wanted to portray from the aesthetics point of view would dictate the kind of fashion and technology they would use. from 1000 - 1300 not a huge amount of change happened as far as warfare was concerned, with only small adjustments, but overall consistent. For example mail armour (though changed slightly in appearance over time was overall fairly consistent); spears, battleaxes, lances, bows and crossbows were pretty much dominant battlefield weapons, while swords and daggers (which were never used as primary field weapons and only as sidearms and/or in civilian environments) also remained fairly consistent in their overall style and design. But if you start from 1300 - 1500 then a lot of changes both in the technology and appearance would have changed quite a lot even in those 200 years. for example the introduction and development of firearms; rapid development of armour and evolution of full plated harness of various forms; reduction of use of larger sized shields by infantry and cavalry (in case of Western Europe primarily, Eastern Europe and Middle East still used shields frequently); increase in a variety of concussive weapons (maces, war hammers, pollaxes etc) that specialised in armoured fighting; increase in longer reach polearms on the battlefield (halberds, bills, glaives, pikes etc); also cannons were becoming more common at this time in place of trebuchets and similar siege engines. So in a way, GoT (the show at least) is actually a bit all over the place if we were to try and mirror the designs of arms and armour in parallel to irl medieval Europe.
I was just thinking about this and now this got recommended
We have to consider that in this world, there is magic, ancient gods and a lot of climate disasters. It is possible to think that the magic of the children of the forest or of Valyria supplied the need for industrialization.
Gun poulder was discovered in China but weapons and the use for warfare was created in Europe.
Royalty happened, they always hold back progress
Well in real life rome was closer to industrialization then any other civilisation because rome had prototype steam devices and even some blueprints
But since rome fell and the ignorance of ots enemies theh burnt the knowledge the roman had learnt for hundreds of years so basically humanity had to start over. For example of you get an early medieval army against a roman army at its peak the roman army despite being much older would will win and have superior tactics, technology, weapons, armor etc
It wouldn't be until medieval Europe having porper knights to have a chance against roman soldiers
The same with the world of game of thrones, long ago they had an empire called Valyria that was far more advanced the any other civilisation and thus had more scientific progress. But with the doom of valeria that was lost and even hundreds of years later no one can match the old power of Valyria
Many civilisation from our history had potential to industrialise the main issue is that no civilisation last forever and when it falls its knowledge is usually destroyed by its lesser and more ignorant foes
Why do u have the Anna delvey accent ? (Great video too)
Westeros hasnt industrialised yet because grrm didnt write it in the plot
A Song Of Ice And Fire is probably my favorite fantasy series including the prequel novels but I still find Dune and LOTR to be even better plus GRRM taking way too long to finish the main series
So In the books it is implied that the Valyrians, (Targeryan), have biological advantages compared to other humans, for example it is mentioned that they hardly get sick. Perhaps this is the reason they did not become deformed because of incest. Incest happens to maintain the fashion of riding dragons in the family.
Keep your machines of Saruman out of my fantasy literature.
Why no industrialization? It’s whatever George wants.
Hahaha pretty much it 😂
Also next book whenever he wants it too😭
Interesting video. I guess the series is set and will conclude in a fictional middle ages. It hasn't reached the Early Modern period yet. Roughly, Children of the Forest(Palaeolithic?) First Men(bronze age?), Andals(Iron age into Early middle ages?), Targaryen Invasion(High middle ages?) Start of the series(Late middle ages?). The spread and development of new technology throughout these eras are incredibly slow. Who knows :/
same
WHOLE season?
Just make it so that there is just less coal.
Very insightful 🧐
Dragons would be useless if they have the ability to make f22
@4:00 it was a couple decades...like 4 generations i believe
Holy moly
Well primitive religions haven't helped their development either.
I blame the faith of the seven
Super fun topic! + Loved the hot nerd vibe
is essos more advanced? the do seem to have a more modern society with investments and some degree of companys
fire. _JC
One of the first Things I immidiatly noted when HotD aired was that they were technological and astethical wise on the Level as in Got, wich made it harder to suspend my Disbelieve
And all the inbreed kids are super hot lol like how but okay I guess I'll take it HBO
What a dumb question
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gir ur so gorgeous
Your really cute