A330neo vs 787 - Qantas' Fleet Decision
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- Опубликовано: 9 окт 2023
- When Qantas announced it would retire its Airbus A330s, it informed Airbus and Boeing that it would require a replacement. As a result, multiple aircraft types were pitched. However, when looking at the A330ceo, the A330neo is its direct replacement with the 787 rivalling the A330neo. So, which direction did Qantas go with its replacement, did the A330neo stand a chance and what important factors were considered before the deal was announced?
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I wouldn't call this a curious decision ..
Many airlines have already decided on the 787/A350 as their future widebody replacements .. leaving the 330 neo on the sidelines ..
It's just not competitive despiste what Airbus marketing may say. The market has spoken loud and clear it is not.
@@johniii8147 Plus even if the neo was that good, the 787 covers a larger market as the 787-10 competes with the a350-900 in replacing older 777-200s so the neo would still have lost out but at least ot cost less than a loss had it been the a350-800
A330/A350 can be flown by the same pilots. Same licens. And the A330 Neo almost on par with the B787 on longhaul but the Airbus is superior on short flights compared Boeing. To me the A330 is more versatile but it’s it’s basically up to price.
@@johanstenberg6130 Sales tell us otherwise. Airbus knows it so has little focus on the 330NEO.
@@johniii8147
B787 has 10 more years on the market and has maybe “saturated “ the mid wide body long-haul market. Off course they have sold more airframes.
But it is in the long-haul market. That’s where the maintenance program for A330 Neo comes in making it cheaper and more effective on wide body short-haul flights. The B787 do not have an answer (yet, might change).
If you add the mixed fleet flying possibilities with A320/330/350 you will have a more effective solution.
The only downside is that A330 only comes with 1 Eng option which never is good.
2-4-2 Economy seats👍
Qantas has been part of the group of neutral airlines when it comes to having fleet variety, not limiting itself on having aircraft from one manufacturer, but in my opinion, they most likely going to lean on the 787 than the A330neo since they're going to be using the A350's on their project sunrise. Although anything could happen or subject is set to change, A330neo doesn't have a chance on the Qantas fleet right now. It would've been nice to see one.
787-10 operates to Brisbane from the china region(can't remember the airline)so good replacement for A330-300 that currently does same flight for Qantas.
I believe it’s EVA Air
It'll be interesting how they deploy their 787-10s when they arrive. It makes sense for someone like Aer Lingus to replace their older A330s with the A330NEO.
Between the a350, 787, XLR Qantas goes from having a old and inefficient fleet (737NG, 747, a380, a330) to a modern one with greater range, flexibility, and efficiency. It should also improve noise levels at Australia's airports, as all of these efficient aircraft are much quieter than the planes they replace.
Qantas used to be an all Boeing 747 fleet only !
@@Cingearth yes, when they were government owned and international only
Thanks For Great INFO
The QANTAS A330s have had a good run and have decent range. The A330s had a good run at Jetstar too, enabling flights from Australia to Hawaii, Thailand and Japan..
A330s are considered long-haul aircraft good for 8 to 15 hours flight times (well inside the 8-16 hours considered to be long-haul). Only 777 and A350 are considered ultra-long-haul.
...although of course we can modify a long-haul to go ultra-long-haul imposing limitations on cargo and passenger capacity.
The A330 has been a fantastic aircraft, but it is begining to look dated and the airlines that can afford the latest & greatest go for it instead. Not all airlines can, so those instead opt for buying the NEO. I for one have to say those oversized engines enhance the A330s good looks. The latest and greatest also besides being cutting edge technology, also come with a fantastic range that allows QF to use them for most of their flights, which are very distant since Oz is located at a far spot on the globe.
Maybe it's because Qantas' A330s are powered by GE CF6 engines, so their 787-10s could be powered by GEnx engines.
Ty dj!!
Just order both replace the current aging A330’s with the new ones so those pilots don’t have to learn a new plane. You can still order 787’s to expand offerings
Those pilots will go on to the A350's most likely.
An airframe that first flew in 1972 (A300) v an airframe that first flew in 2009. That is 37 years, the same time gap between the first flights of the DC-3 and the A300.
The air frame is indeed old and it shows (although the neo got slightly newer wing design) ...and the tech on board has nothing to do with the A300, not even with the A330ceo from 90s. Both cockpit and cabin were improved significantly. Did you know the A330neo is actually 3db quieter than the Dreamliner? ..and 3dbs is a lot in terms of noise.
@@furry_homunculus Does mean much because all the problems with the 737MAX stem from the fact this is an old airframe pushed way beyond its development limits. Trying to fit the latest engines created the aerodynamic issues that caused two of them to crash and grounded the rest. The A320, a much newer design, had no such problems accommodating the latest engines. The 737 should have been replaced after the 300/400/500/600 series.
@@miks564 The A330Neo and 787 are still a generation apart. Maybe two.
@@davidcarter4247 The NEO has a two generations older airframe (at least).
But being a fly-by-wire aircraft, it’s also 8 or 9 years newer than the Dreamliner in several aspects. It certainly had design limitations from the older frame, but it should also have some newer tech.
@@davidcarter4247 The problem with the 747 is the fact that it’s not a fly-by-wire computer operated aircraft. It’s still a cables and pulleys along the airframe analogue machine.
Good news for both Airbus and boeing.
Another perfect example (imho), is Hawaiian Airlines. They had a chance of replacing their aging and outdated a330’s with the neo but ultimately decided to go for the 787’s. Are the a330 neo not that popular or something? That or Boeing just gave them a big discount that HAL couldn’t resist.
Boeing swooped in with a great deal is well known. It was also a unique situation HA could get out of the deal with airbus at no penalty given they originally ordered the 350-800 that was canceled and offered the 330NEO instead.
@@johniii8147 This was mainly because they wanted to make use of as many parts of the a350-900 as possible without having to make them lighter for the -800, which would have made it heavy and inefficient and also launch very late. It was cheaper to produce the neo than the -800 itself
I seem to think Qantas has a craving for a higher capacity long-range twin engine airplane, possibly during the very busy last quarter of the year. So I think they will split an order between the Boeing 787-10IGW, and Airbus A350-1000 for fleet commonality/advancement. They are both great aircraft. There's no question they like both of these airplanes, but is it really going to make any sense to have both types for the destinations they are looking to excel into??
The order has already been placed for 12 of both the 787 and 350. There is no need to speculate on the order anymore. That was announced last month so not new news.
What I liked most about the Airbus A330 (including its neo versions) is its 2-4-2 seating configuration in Economy Class, which is perfect for passengers in the said class who want to have a direct aisle access. The 3-3-3 configuration of the Airbus A350 XWB and Boeing 787 Dreamliner and the 3-4-3 configuration of the Boeing 777X could be cramped and could be difficult to access the aisle.
Airlines don't really care on your preference for economy other than getting in as many seats as possible.
@@johniii8147 They may very well use 3-3-3 or even 3-4-3 configuration in Economy Class on future wide-bodies to increase capacity and meet passenger demand.
More seats=more money
@nguyenanghoang7314 If the widebody aircraft I'm going to take has a 3-3-3 or 3-4-3 configuration in Economy Class, and I'm traveling alone or with my companion, I will consider traveling in Business Class or even Premium Economy or otherwise, sitting in the middle or aisle seat because they provide direct aisle access!
Hope a A330 finds a home at Qantas founders museum.
Thats not a landing at 6:32 - Its a touch down
The A330neo was built to compete with the 787, but, while it's still made money for Airbus due to puny investment, the aircraft hasn't succeeded against the 787 at all.
It hasn't succeeded in sales absolutely, but it has succeeded in price pressure on the 787. Boeing are now saying 1650 airframes is the likely break even for the 787 programme. Meanwhile the A350 break even was....350 aircraft! I would be very surprised if Qantas deviated from the 787 and picked up A330neos though.
Wouldn't call billions even the 330NEO cost to develop with the wing and engine changes. But certainly far less than 787. The estimates I've seen in Airbus/RR spent about 2 billion on development. Nothing is cheap in this business. It's not yet close at a stated break even of 350 deliveries. Only 110 or so far have been delivered.
@@johniii8147 Airbus hasn't even received 350 orders for the A330neo, so if they need that many to be profitable, it's already a failure. They were lucky to redesign the A350, otherwise it would have failed too.
Compared to the 787, which cost nearly 30 billion, 2 billion is puny in comparison.
@@sainnt You are both waaaay out. The A35O break even was 350 aircraft. The A330neo was around the 120 aircraft mark that Airbus declared the programme had broken even. So both these types are in profit already.
@@sainnt I don't really think Airbus is that concerned with the 330NEO at this point. Enough other issues to deal with the 320/220/350 series. Very back burner for them at this point.
The A330 provides a way to get airplanes when you need them NOW, without much of a wait. Its proven, it works and they are available.
The A330 NEO program was a quick and cheap answer to the modern B787. Boeing has not yet made a profit with that program, despite very high sales. Airbus knew that the challenge was big. But the A330 NEO has created a niche market. And still make money. Like the B737 Max versus the A320/321 NEO...but in the other way for Boeing....
Airbus isn't really concerned about the 330NEO at this point. It's irrelevant in most deals at this point. They know that. It's the 350 they are working to improve since it's lost out to the 787 in many deals and didn't match the economics of the 787. Especially true now that Boeing has HGW versions of both the 9 and 10 that further increase the range.
A330 neo still a 30 year old design airframe
Right. The A330NEO shares some exterior design elements with the A300, A310, A330, and A340.
sometimes i feel like airbus is doing good on passenger planes and Boeing is good at the cargo planes
The gaps are narrowing
@@thisiskevin1000not really. The A350F and the 787 series are doing just as ppl expected it to do.
Boeing has been the top dog for many years and instead of waking up with the competition they kept milking the cow with a short term profit oriented management policy. Now, they're struggling with only two modern aircraft in the line up and one, the triple seven, is not even yet in operation at this moment in time.
Of course in terms of operational costs, the 737 is still competitive with the new engines, but I don't call it modern, because it is in fact a very old bucket with cables and pulleys along the airframe that doesn't even have doors to cover the main gear wheels.
I used to think that fly-by-wire was the way to go until a close friend of mine had a runaway ev and then got stuck in the car because the doors won't open (servo motors wouldn't actuate).
I like power assisted redundant mechanical connections but it might be because I've experienced things failing mid-flight
@@iceman9678 Fly by wire is the way to go. There’s no doubt about it.
It’s much lighter and much easier for computers to operate.
…or even for pilots in specific situations like manually trimming an aircraft subject to high aero forces.
The tactile feedback is non existent of course, but that’s the price to pay for automation.
or they buy more non-XLR A350s for Asia routes and long-range/high demand Aussie route.
Why is it that IF an airline chooses an Airbus fleet, it's because they're better than Boeing, BUT if they choose Boeing, it's usually because of pilot or maintenance costs? Are you sure the Boeing 787 is not just superior to the A330?
A330 is high density short to medium haul king sort of. Neo would be a smooth and natural replacement. And better delivery slots likely.
Obviously QF didn't agree on that. Few carriers have chosen the 330NEO. Clearly the 787 or 350s are much better.
The A330 is a long-haul class aircraft. The reason is used on so many medium and sometimes short routes is related to its efficiency.
@@johniii8147 The main customers for the A330neo are current A330ceo operators. ...and most A330ceo are less than 20 years old. So they still have a few years to go. ...and as I posted before, the 787 is overall better, but not as much as one could think. The 787-10 can carry a few more people, but not as far as a A330neo. The 787-9 can fly similar distances with similar passengers for less fuel. The difference is not big, but of course if we multiply the advantage over years of operation, it makes it a better choice.
The A350 is the competitor of the B787
Not good news for the A330 Neo program airlines are replacing their A330 Ceo with 787 or A350 instead of the A330 Neo example Air France and Qantas.
Yeah the 330NEO is just not selling despite it's fanboys. The 787 is now close to 2000 in sales while the NEO sits at around 300. No major order for it in sometime.
@@johniii8147 Yeah don't get me wrong its a great plane but the 787 and A350 are simply better. I have been hearing for months that Delta was going to place more A330 Neo orders to replace their 767 but so far nothing Delta usually takes its time they are not in a hurry.
@@ivanviera4773 Yeah, DL is a unique situation. The 330 is simply too large for many of their transatlantic routes so they keep their old 767s flying them. They eventually have no choice to make a decision of replacements. Many of their 330s are also getting quite old at this point with mid 90s deliveries to NW. DL doesn't seem to have really figured out it's widebody strategy yet.
One thing I read in the past is that the A330 Neo is more suited to shorter routes than the 787 so, if true, would fit the long internal flights. Oddly, due to commonality the A330 Neo fits better with the A350 and A320 familiies. The 787 is a nice aircraft, flown on it many times, it is up to Qantas to decide what fits their fleet requirements.,
They can fill some of that with the XLRs though,
@@Secretlyanothername Agree with that, we dont know the balance of Qantas operations. With a likely Airbus fleet with A350 and A320 family maybe they want more options. Qantas must know the reasons for their choices. It is their choice.
What a shame. A330 is a wonderful plane to fly on. Boeing planes are basically uncomfortable but the A350 is the worst plane I’ve flown in. To be fair I’ve never ridden in a 787.
I've actually paid higher ticket prices to avoid 787 long haul. Truely horrible aircraft in many airline configuration
It’s still 3-3-3
@@lhk7006 - Japan Airlines runs them in 2-4-2, which is nice. The 3-3-3 in a 787 is horrible.
Japan Airlines is the only one I’ll use to book on a 787 …
That's why I don't bother with economy on any long haul aircraft. It's not a good experience on any carrier or aircraft. That's why it's called economy.
@@johniii8147 - Regardless of your opinion of coach in general, economy on most carrier’s 787’s is exceptionally poor for average or larger adult Western males due to narrow seating dictated by 9-across configuration which is the industry standard for that aircraft.
The entire experience drastically improves with 8-across seating, but only a handful of carriers so equip their 787’s.
@@Clyde-2055 Only JAL and and ANA have 8 across in economy on the 787 and even they are phasing those out to a large degree. People like to complain about the seat width ( and of course don't want to pay for an upgrade) but it's actually a bit more than the seats on the 747 in economy. People wanting cheap fares also like to whine about 10 abreast on the 777 as well. You always have to option to upgrade yourself to a larger seat if you're willing to actually pay for it.
What I liked most about the Boeing 787 Dreamliner is its cabin altitude and its dimmable windows.
Unfortunately the dimmable widows have become more a weakness than a strength. Most carriers seem to control them so you really have no choice. Common complaint.
@@johniii8147 - I find that to be a strength … It eliminates that ONE asshole on every flight that insists on being the only one to open the shade …
B787 from S Carolina..... i'll be very cautious with that..
THEY ONLY MADE A330 COS A350 WAS DELAYED AND A380 WASNT MUCH SUCCESS ONLY EMIRATES REALLY UTILISED IT
A330 neo engines are the same as the 787 (RR) except some differences, ask Qantas if they are happy with the Trent 1000/ 7000 ?
The past issues with the Trent 1000 have been fixed. Trent XWB is an expansion of the Trent 1000 and QF ordered 24 of those for 12 A350-1000.
Airlines have not been happy with the 7000 version. Not meeting specs on fuel burn etc. One of the big reasons it's sold so poorly.
@@johniii8147 where did you get that info..or did you just make that up? The 7000 is basically an improved iteration of the Trent 1000 787 engine and it met every fuel burn guarantee. Of all engines offered with fuel burn figures up front then haven't met them, the GE9X is right up there at the top of the list.
@@nathd1748 Several carries have reported it including DL. EK also backed out of an order because of it.
@johniii8147 send me a link to this then. Because I work building those wings and given the jump in range coupled with the 251T jump in MTOW the calculation is that it is achieving 14% fuel burn advantage over the Trent 700. RR initially offered it as 12%.
Much prefer a330 because they only have 2 seats on window sides. 787 too squashed up.
The 787 has not that big of an advantage over the A330neo although most people believe it does.
So, I wouldn't be surprised if Qantas went for the neo or even if they eventually end up getting a few in the future.
The 787 and the A330neo have similar MTOW and the 787-9 is good to fly 435nm further than the A330neo or fly the same distance with less fuel. The 787-10 is 5 meters longer so it's also capable of carrying more people, but not as far.
Everybody praises the 787 cockpit (rightfully so, I guess), it's the more modern one in the Boeing line up, but I guess the neo has the advantage of being 8 or 9 years more recent.
From the passengers point of view, the A330 cabin is also 3db quieter than the 787.
So there you go.
787 is far quieter than the a330 !
@@Cingearth 787 is quieter than old A330s, but new A330neo seem to be even quieter with a -3db reported difference.
And 3db is a lot.
Wow so many cringy expert here who got their degree in youtube university. 😂
Look at the bright side. Sometimes we get to learn from the smart people who post adding absolutely nothing to the topic.
We are again in a time period were geopolitics is also a big thing why certain models of aircraft are ordered.
The closure of the Russian federation airspace for the fore seeable future is big concern for many airlines around the world.
Routes have become 40-60% further so range and efficiency models are for airlines a high priority to obtain.
F.e. KLM-Airfrance orderd the A350 in XLR trim for their Asia routes instead of expanding the fleet with more B787-9 and 10's.
The B777 and 787 are the current types they use on their Asia routes fly with less cargo and passengers on longer routes just to reach their destinations skyrocketing ticket prices.
Quantas has ofcourse different needs and is not so much affected by closure of the Russian federation airspace.
With the geopolitical turmoil developing more and more all over the globe it makes sense for Quantas to buy aircraft that has redundant capacity f.e. to fly over the South pole to reach its destinations.
SAS already has its Asia routes flying over the North pole as was usual in the cold war period.
B787 is budget airline's aircraft of choice. SCOOT, SIA subsidiary budget airline seems to be using them in a very competitive manner. No ?
Not a good reason since Airasia X (which is direct Scoot competitor) opt for the A330 NEO. The airline business model doesn't influence the aircraft manufacturer product quality.
I never flew with Qantas but I'll agree with their decision buying 787-10 fleet over A330NEOs.
They already have 787-9s so the 787-10s make sense.
The a330neo is just unlucky. It has less range, limited engine options incase of reliability issues, is not clean sheet like the 787 and costs almost as much as a 787. If it were significantly cheaper by at least over 50 million only then would it be considered. The a350 is a good choice though for routes that used the a330 but can't be replaced by an a321XLR
I really love it though but I just hope it does better. I'd love to see more of them flying
Not selling ( even being considered seriously) is not unlucky. Just means it's considered an inferior product.
@@johniii8147 Well given that Airbus didn't invest much in it like an a350 I'm sure they wouldn't care much as long as it's doing well
@@Tpr_1808 True was relatively inexpensive to develop but still well into the billions. They will probably break even on the program.
Believe it or not it actually is about £40M cheaper. And repairing 787 fuselage punctures is an absolute nightmare.
@@johniii8147 They will break even on it before Boeing break even on 787.
Airlines need to order the Airbus A330neo-800. It's a fantastic aircraft.
LOL..obviously airlines don't agree with you since it's sold what 12 aircraft in 10 years. The economics just don't work for the smaller version.
utterly wrong. the 787 is a totally DIFFERENT aircraft. what Qantas has lost is COMMONALITY, with the 330-neo sharing so many common features as the 350 and 320 family (the 220 is quite different). it is interesting that the video DOES NOT MENTION this feature at all. also, the 330neos are CHEAPER than the 787s. it was the 787 that was the new aircraft introduced, given that Qantas has been flying the 330 for decades. this analysis has got it backward.
Is’s just like what the 777x haters say: one is in service (with Qantas), one isn’t
Who said that the 787 is not in service 🤣. On the 777X on the other hand different story
Both the 787 and A330 are flying at Qantas. Did you even watch the video?
@@heidirabenau511 but not the A330NEO
Go for the A350 only
Very big planes like the A350 and B777 can't land at regional airports and there isn't the demand for that many seats. That's why most large airlines have large and smaller widebodies (A330 and B787) as well as a larger single isle plane and occasionally a smaller single isle like the A220.
They may probably go for the A350 which has longer range, can be delivered quicker, is cheaper than the 787
They have already ordered 12 of both so the order is already done.
@@johniii8147With a further options for 12 of each.
A350 is absolutely NOT cheaper than the 787. Where did you hear that nonsense? A330neo is cheaper.
@@nathd1748 None of us can really comment in detail on the actual pricing. It varies widely based on deal size and how much either Boeing or Airbus wants a deal. Any large deal will easily be 50% off list. Also well reported Boeing has been very aggressive in 787 pricing. Actually probably cheaper than 330NEO that Airbus doesn't really seem that interested in selling.
should retire dis channel darlinks