787 RIVAL - The Airbus A330neo
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- Опубликовано: 30 окт 2023
- The Airbus A330neo was launched with the intention to better compete with the Boeing 787 Dreamliner and allow Airbus to have another widebody that wasn't the A350, among other reasons. However, did Airbus execute the type correctly, how has it stacked up against the Boeing 787, and why do some customers prefer the Dreamliner, potentially highlighting an advantage that's present for the series over the re-engined Airbus type.
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The 787 replaced the much older 767 but the A330CEO still is somewhat not old enough to replace. Hawaiian airlines only cancelled their A330NEO order because they didn’t want to be one of very few carriers to order the A330-800. Other airlines chose the 787 for fleet commonality and they already operate Boeing aircraft.
Hawaiian also ordered 787’s
The Airbus A330neo is one of my two favorite next-generation wide-body aircrafts (alongside the Airbus A350 XWB) because of its 2-4-2 seating configuration in its Economy Class cabin (just like the Airbus A330ceo and A340), which provides direct aisle access in all classes. The 3-3-3 configuration in the Economy Class cabin of the Airbus A350 XWB and Boeing 787 Dreamliner and the 3-4-3 configuration in the Economy Class cabin of the Boeing 777X are cramped and could be difficult to access the aisle, but they can help airlines increase revenue.
Having been on an A330-ceo (as well as a 787) I do preffer the A330 slightly. I love the 787 cabin pressure advantage, which I think is the best feature on the plane, but I fly exclussively economy, where the differences are minimum. the 2-4-2 of the A330 is far superior to the 3-3-3 of the B787 and that is the deal breaker to me.
How do you compare the ride in both? Dreamliner should be better handling turbulence.
@@ivanviera4773there is no such thing as a plane that handles turbulence better, whoever said that knows nothing or is just dumb
Unless the carriers change the seat configuration but yes, this is why I enjoy the 330
@@maxsaviation9512 Yes there is. There are electronic systems in the latest aircraft that help reduce turbulence.
The 787 absolutely handles turbulence better, it's literally a feature of the design
Thanks For Great INFO
The 787 was Boeing's answer to A330 was was outselling the 767. The 787 replaced the 767, though it was slightly bigger than the 767. The A330neo was meant to better compete with the 787, since they have roughly the same range of passengers carried per flight. Their range is different, while they also overlap.
The A350 was meant to replace the A340(longer range) and 777-200(passenger capacity and range) and 300ER. And it has replaced the 777-200 for some airlines.
It will be interesting to see how the A330neo fares against the 787 over time.
My take on this subject is that the A330 is indeed a direct competitor to the 787 in size, range, capacity operating speed and fuel efficiency. However the 787 has a slight edge on most of those figures, so for clients already operating Boeing machinery, which are the majority of them (since Boeing has always dominated the wide body market), they'll naturally just opt to extend their 787 fleet whenever they need more aircraft in this category.
If they don't operate Boeing, but already operate Airbus, then the A330neo is a serious candidate for those deciding against the bigger and more expensive A350.
For operators entering the wide bodies market for the first time, the expected choice will be the 787, but still there's one or two starting from scratch that had preferred the A330neo over the 787. Because in reality the 787 its not a clear winner on every type of demand.
It's also worth mentioning that the A330 still uses the old ceo airframe, but got some important tweaks besides the new engines, including new wings (EDIT: Actually the most advanced wings currently found on any aircraft) and several improvements on the cabin interior. For instance, the interior cabin noise has been measured at -3db that the 787.
More importantly, the cockpit is brand new and the flight systems come from the A350, not from the old A330ceo. So it's really a new aircraft on the inside, despite still being heavier than the 787.
Another reason for the weak sales is that there are hundreds of A330ceo flying that are less than 20 years old, still bringing profit to their operators and companies are forced to balance the operating costs savings with the costs of investment on new aircraft. So I expect the A330neo to replace many of those as they get phased out in the future.
Most a330ceo operators tried out subfleets of 787s in their early days such that when it was time to acquire replacements it was logical to expand that fleet of 787s. The dilemma comes to operators who operate neither the a330neo nor the 787, previously operating 767s or a330ceos with no small fleets of 787s. The neo was launched a decade after the 787, enough time to prove itself and familiarise with maintenance crews and having more than 1 engine option and being clean sheet. This made sure that the a330neo would never have a proper place since the 787 had already hogged the smaller widebody sector
The a350 style carbon composite wings and engines have been a game changer.
The A330 neo wings are even more modern and efficient because they were an improved designed from the A350.
@@miks564 definitely.
Ty dj!!
The A330neo seems to be the choice for budget airlines that want a jack-of-all-trades widebody that can do both regional and long haul flights.
The experiment of an ultra-dense configuration they've done with Cebu Pacific's 459-seater A330neos gives even more options for markets that have high demand but low purchasing power.
The A330 neo is cost effective for flights up to 10 hours. At the time of launch, Airbus said they were seeing demand for a cost-effective 300 seater from holiday operators who didn't need the range of an A350. That category of operator has been particularly hard hit by Covid and high fuel prices, but may revive within the life of the Neo program.
The range of the A330-900neo (7,200 nautical miles) makes it a potential replacement for the 777-200ER for some airlines. I wonder has British Airways "kicked the tires" on a possible 25-plane order for the A330-900neo (though the A350-900 is a better choice for that airline).
@@Sacto1654 Virgin Atlantic has bought the 330 Neo, mainly for US East Coast destinations that don't have enough traffic for an A350. For similar west coast and other longer distance routes that can't justify an A350, they use 787-9.
Kuwait used to have a 13 hours flight on a A330-800 from Kuwait to NY.
@@miks564 yup, that model has the range, but has only sold about 15. It's the sort of route the 787 is better at.
@@Sacto1654 That 7,200 nautical miles range are the maximum range with full fuel but limited payload on clear weather. Usually the range of widebody aircrafts tend to be ~1,000 nautical miles to ~2,000 nautical miles lower compared to the advertised range.
This is because they would fill the aircraft with full passengers, their checked in bags, and extra revenue cargo. Hence why they can't fill the fuel since it would go over the Maximum Take Off Weight.
The optimum range for A330-900neo is around 5,500 nautical miles to 6,000 nautical miles for maximum payload.
Hi DJ,
Seems for a clean sheet design airlines must expect 10-15 years of shake out.
Boeing has won the battle for years with the B787 for widebody aircraft vs the A330neo. While Airbus has won the battle for MoM with its A321LR/XLR.
I would see at midterm a major airline such as Turkish, ordering A330neo for replacing A330ceo, perfectly suitable for its operational network ( long routes as well as short/medium ones).
Unfortunately, Turkish Airlines didn't order the A330NEO as I searched up.
Turkish ordered a lot of A350‘s instead of A330neo
The reason why many of the existing A330 airlines opted for the Boeing 787 Dreamliner over the Airbus A330neo could be because of the engine manufacturer selected for their A330s. Some of them are powered by General Electric's GE-CF6 engines, and some are powered by Pratt & Whitney PW4000 engines. If any airlines have their A330ceos powered by the Rolls-Royce Trent 700 engines, they can replace it with the Airbus A330neo or the Boeing 787 Dreamliner with Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 engines. If any airlines have their A330ceos powered by General Electric's GE-CF6 engines or the Pratt & Whitney PW4000 engines, they can replace it with the Boeing 787 Dreamliner with GEnx engines.
Not really much of a factor. Engine deals these days are power by the hour typically where the engine makers handle most of the maintenance.
With the original a330 Airbus was doing to the a310 what Boeing was doing to the 737. To make matters worse it's sister plane in development the a340 suddenly became obsolete in just a few years with a high cost per seat per kilometer in fuel. When the 787 arrived the a330 had to carry considerably more fuel to achieve the range Airbus advertised. And this re-engined neo did not really solve that issue as much as people hoped as it again is carrying substantially more fuel to achieve its range although thankfully it is a greater range. Maintaining commonality by ordering more 787s is not Airbus's only problem. Airbus still needs airlines to rationalize a higher cost per kilometer per seat and I believe even a higher overall cost of ownership annually with the neo. And just look at how many 787s were already sold when this fix for the 8330 inefficiencies became available. I think most of it sells are due to the backlog of 787 orders. I know for certain that is the case with delta.
The length of airbus A330s should be extended between 60 to 65 m respectively, while keeping there range similar or even more.
I believe they are different aircraft but both are great. As an employee with Delta I have worked on the 330 and 350 a lot and would love to see us get the 787. I doubt we will though but the question still remains as to what aircraft we will be using to replace the 767
Delta may surprise us with a 787 order just like they did with the max 10. They have not been placing new 330 neo orders.
Same. We were supposed to launch the 787-8 at NWA but it was delayed when we merged with DL then cancelled. I think at this stage in development and improvements the 787 would be the most appropriate replacement for the 767.
@@GSUHotboi05 The issue at this point would be availability. The 787 is backed up with orders so they don't really have to give a great cut rate price or many delivery slots left for the next 5 years or so.
@@johniii8147Ed would never!
Boeing spent $32 billion USD ($46 billion in 2023 USD) to engineer and develop the 787 Dreamliner. Airbus spent $2 billion USD ($2.5 billion in 2023 USD) to refresh and develop the a330neo.
I wish Boeing the best of luck in their 787 Dreamliner program as they’ll need to 20 of their 787 Dreamliners for every 1 of Airbus’ a330neos to break even. Then profitability will come afterwards. Seems that Boeing is doing a good job but there’s still a long road ahead.
And the best part is that the A330neo's existence basically forces Boeing to sell the 787 for cheaper than they would otherwise have, making their return of investment smaller still. Airbus basically wrote off 2 billion € to screw with Boeing and got a decent plane out of the deal. Technologically, the 350 is more advanced, but for many routes, it is also overkill.
Certainly hasn't been much of a "rival".
I think the true competitor of 787 is A350. Current user of A330 are not buying the A330NEO due to the CEOs are still in life-span and bought lots of A350s.
They may replace with A330NEO for short-haul in future I think.
Nah, the A350 is the competitor of the B777.
@@justbenny__ There is indeed a lot of overlap in competition between the 350 and 787-9/10
Yes it may not be a ‘clean sheet’ design…but didn’t Airbus significantly improve the wing of this aircraft?? Along with other minor improvements?? You may want to mention these changes other than just the engine…just saying…
But still comparing these two doesn't carry any water. Airbus 330 neo is literally a backup to the 350-1000. But 787 is still strong
330neo is Airbus's response to the 787. The 350 is the result of realizing the 330neo is not competitive enough.
Any idea when Delta Air will get rid of its old many 767s and replace them with one of this models?
to my knowledge Delta hasn't made any decisions as to what they'll replace the 767 with, i'm also wondering about their 757s.
@@macerfaceI absolutely hate delta 767’s with their ancient cabin!! They need to be scrapped or sold immediately cause these crap planes are stuck on most routes to Europe
@@maxsaviation9512 well you can always choose a different airline if you are not happy with the product they fly. And just because something is old or not top of the notch is directly crap or sucks. I like the Delta 767s.
@@macerface True about the 767. The 757 is being replaced by the 321NEO and 737-10MAX
@@maxsaviation9512 The problem is it is not just the extremely old 767s which are an obvious thing to replace. In the mid and late 2000s Northwest purchased at least 16 of the 767 400 series. I believed at the time of the 2010 merger none of those planes had turned 10 years old yet. Northwest was really late in the game in acquiring 767. They kept clinging on to those dinosaur DC-10s for a long time. The priority was to get rid of the more expensive to operate Airbus a340 first even though they also were not at all old. I forgot if that was before or after the merger. No way was Delta going to send the last version of 767 out to the desert or sell them to FedEx without getting all the usage out of them. You must not be aware of their reputation for loving to fly old planes. But I totally agree if anything hold on to those 777 200 series and send the 767 to UPS and fedex if they have to keep something old.
I don’t think the a330 neo is the rival of the 787. I think it’s the a350 because the a350 and the 787 can fly lengthy route
Well, but the A350 is still a bit larger
The A350-1000 is significantly larger. It will directly compete with the Boeing 777X (once this finally gets certified) for the upper end of range and capacity.
@@PhilippDebus yea but the a350 and the 787 are used for lengthy routes like Sydney to Dallas or Los Angeles to Dubai
@@Ayden2008 there is no 787 between LAX and DXB.
It’s a great airplane and I find it a little bit complexing why it hasn’t sold more. It’s a true workhorse.
The 787 beats it in economics.
Airbus needs to make improvements to the A330 Neo to be more competitive mainly reduce its weight.
It's actually quite competative againts the 787 Cody explains explains how
@@FireAspect1202 Cody is paid by Airbus for promotion.
Yeah, not exactly an impartial commentator....
Coby on airbus payroll.😂😂
@@FireAspect1202Ah yes, old Coby Explains with his clickbaity videos with him making predictions based on nothing.
Not the A330neo, the Airbus A350!
The A330 2-4-2 seating in economy is far superior to the 3-3-3 of the A350 and the 787. The 3-3-3 seating is a deal breaker for me but it seems the airlines find squishing us the customers in the 3-3-3 seating in the A350 and 787 accounts for the popularity. Its just another way the airlines show their distain for the basic comfort of customers.
A rivalry....not sure about that assumption..
Like comparing the A321 neo, to the 737-10..both competitors in the large narrowbody sector..not much of a rivalry !!
For its capabilities, the A330NEO is too heavy and too expensive, when it compares to the 787, and the difference in price and weight is dramatic, tens of millions of dollars and more than 30 metric tonnes, and the passenger capacity is slightly larger. Though, with the existence of the a350, which is fundamentally the exact same aircraft and shares a wing, and list price, it vastly negates any reason for the a330NEO to be around. Airlines that still operate the a330ceo and 767, will likely split their decisions for the 787 and a350, and that’s exactly what we have seen happen. The a350 can give better range than the a330neo and the 787 is vastly cheaper and weighs less, it also carries a lot less fuel as a result of being smaller. So, the reason why the a330NEO hasn’t sold well is simply down to the economics. I’d imagine that Delta got a fantastic price on them, airbus probably gave them away for free, like they did with the a220. But, even here, we can still see that Delta has plans to fully go ahead with a350s and they, “Can’t get enough of them.”-Ed Bastian, so much so that they have even purchased stakes in LATAM just to acquire their a350 aircraft slots. Sure, its cheap for Airbus, but the a350 and a330 overlap so much that this isn’t surprising.
The A330neo doesn't have dimmable windows, which is nice.
I hope nobody missed this comment: "I wanted to begin with the idea that many had, which was Airbus quickly finding itself in a bit of a tight spot, only offering the A350 for longhaul travel." This is a very interesting comment, because Airbus developed the A330neo first. Is DJ implying that the A330neo was designed to supplement the A350 as another option for customers?
The only reason the A350 came about is because airlines operating the A330co at the time didn't think it was a good enough alternative to the current engine option, let alone the 787. The A350 came about due to lack of interest in the A330neo, not the other way around. Forget the A380, as it has nothing to do with the sales failure of the A330neo.
The so-called option for niche airlines is exactly due to the fact that the aircraft can be obtained much cheaper than the 787 or A350, which explains why cash-strapped airlines like Condor, Air Senegal, Ugandan or even Starlux would choose the aircraft.
It's a dream to continue thinking that the A330neo will "continue to accumulate orders". The only reason why an airline would consider ordering the A330neo is for speed of delivery, since the modern widebodies, namely the 787 and A350, have a significant backlog of orders. Stop romanticizing the aircraft, because, just like big brother A380, which only DJ call chooses to refer to as the 'King of the Skies ' (no one else does, but I digress), the aircraft was designed past its time. The industry has basically moved on to better things, and so should Airbus fans. The romance of the A330neo has flames out.
Didn't know there was a flamed romance about the A330neo.
Indeed the A330 neo came *after* the A350.
They've start the project before, but canceled it in favor of the A350 development.
However, later in time, after the A350 debut, they've then decided to go forward with the A330 neo project since it was still a good option.
That's why the A330 neo has now the most advanced and efficient wing design in commercial aviation (it was improved over the A350 design). ...and its flight systems come from the A350, benefiting from almost all of the innovations brought into the A350 cockpit. Basically, we can find more modern flight systems on the A330 neo than on a Dreamliner, which is already several years older.
Anyway, there are still hundreds of A330 ceo flying today that aren't older enough to be replaced, so I'll not be surprised to see many of those replaced in the future by A330neos. It would be the choice I expect for companies not operating Boeing and not wanting to invest on the bigger A350.
According to Airbus, the A330neo still brings 25% operational costs savings over its predecessor which is something.
@@miks564 Airbus fans need to stop. The A330neo was developed BEFORE the A350, and it was coming out no matter what. They rushed the A350 into service because it's the ones that airlines were more interested in. That's the only reason the A330neo went into service later, no other reason.
The wings of the Dreamliner is more advanced than that of any other widebody wing on earth, and the flight systems in the A330neo is no different than that of any other Airbus cockpit, save for type variations.
We definitely know who's romanticizing here, and it's not me. There's a reason why the more modern aircraft from both Boeing and Airbus are selling better than the A330neo, and it's not because of all the basic 'marvels' that you're trying to espouse here. The 787 and A350 are simply better aircraft. Period, the end.
@@sainntThe 'romance novel' kind of speech was already a giveaway about who's a fanboy.
The A330 neo was developed after the A350, not before. The program started before, but it was aborted in favor of the A350 project.
Because the development costs were so small for the A330 neo, Airbus went through with the program in 2014, when the A350 was already in the final testing phases.
That's why the A330 has the most advanced and efficient wings design we can find on any commercial airliner because the wings were an improvement over the A350 design. That is also why it gets mostly the same flight systems from the A350. This is not 'painted new'. This means it really has the modern features of a modern airliner on an old airframe. Painting new old stuff, is what Boeing has been doing with the 737.
The 787 has the upper hand over the A330, because it benefits from a modern lighter airframe which makes it more efficient, not because it's more advanced, because it clearly isn't.
Looking at the numbers, passenger capacity, cargo capacity, operational range, MTOW, cruise speed, etc. ...they're both very similar and the 787 is not the winner on every aspect. It's just the more versatile which makes it the logical choice between the two. But that might not extend to companies without Boeing aircraft. And that it's why we we're going to see a few hundreds A330 neo in the skies. It will one of the more profitable aircraft for Airbus, having such a low development cost
@@sainnt Says the Boeing 787 pompom fan girl calling the A350 a knockoff... this nigga, I kept ho-ma-nia LMFAO
@@alvinloh9068 I'd go into details for you, but you wouldn't understand because you're a troll, not an av geek. I'll save my time for people who are serious about aviation. For future reference, if you want to refute something you read, come with a counterpoint instead of incendiary hot air.
Best of luck to you.
Boeing have made a huge number of missteps, the worst being not doing a 767X, since they are still making the airframe in the KC46...
the 767 was over move on from it
@@nickolliver3021 you're missing the point. It was a huge mistake to kill it. I know it's over. Just like the NMA and a lot of other missed opportunities at Boeing. Their executives can't manage their way out of a paper bag.
@@nickolliver3021 It has its niche. Since Boeing isn't releasing a new MMA, the 767X would have been their best bet. A 787-3 would still be overkill for many routes, never mind the 787-8.
@@EdVonPelt the 767x wouldn't be better because the 767 would not have engines for the frame from manufacturers. But anyway what has been done is done.
It's a slow seller, but will pick up over time.
Fan boys have been saying that for years now. The NEO has been on the market for sale for 10 years now.
@@johniii8147 troll
@@wadehiggins1114 Troll by pointing the FACTS. Ok
@johniii8147 I bet you own an iphone and drive a tesla. ZIP IT!
@@wadehiggins1114 No I don't drive a Tesla. Not a fan of EVs until the infrastructure for them improves in the US.
The video is not entirely correct with its analysis.
The A330neo has wider product placement that is yet to be developed. The Neo can be utilised in military applications and has room for further development and improvement.
The real story of “unsuccessful aircraft “ is the Boeing 748 and the 777x
Isn't the 787 rival from Airbus the A350
Kinda the 787-10 is the only variant that can actually compete though, the A350 is made for replacing the order gen 777s and going againts new 777x
In a lot of cases yes.
The Boeing 787 is the best aircraft for healthy breathing air during flught. The air passengers and crew breath in during flught does not come off the engine, it has a separate air source that is not contaminated. Crew and passengers are not poisoned with carbon monoxide or other contaminates.
Airbus after 10yrs ......now see why they should have developed a clean sheet model to rival the 787…..... meanwhile the a220 500 will take another 10yrs
Yet another Airbus video. Really?
A year ago he was a Boeing fanboy
nobody forces you to watch. Please leave us. We will be happy about it
@@gerhardma4687 no I’m not leaving. I enjoy this content. If my commentary offends you, that is your problem, not mine.
@@jamesharrison3045 I don't feel offendes James. I am neither Airbus or Boeing Fanboy - like the most subscribers here. I like the content about both because i think they need each other to be more innovative and competitive. I'm just surprised that there are people who complain that he does too much of one manufacturer or another, or too much of Quantas and Lufthansa. If you look at his videos, you can hardly see any preference. We don't always know what his sources are. Perhaps he also receives press information from Airbus or Boeing. I believe that everyone has a preference when it comes to this industry. Both in terms of manufacturers and airlines, but we are on Google and not on a news channel, which should be neutral. I really can't see him being a big Airbus fanboy though. Hence my comment. I like the exchange and the discussion as long as it is not biased. I trust you like it too.
@@gerhardma4687 Fair enough. I agree with your philosophy.
Absolutely no content, sorry
A330 neo, is not worthy of pumping up the tyres of a 787. Boeing product is far superior.
While I wouldn`t argue that the B787 is the better aircraft, these two aircraft are very competative in what they both achieve. Your analagy is both childish & inaccurate. Remember every A330 Neo sale is a sale taken from the B787 & considering the development costs it`s a win-win for AB, plus I can see their sales improving further as A330 Ceo`s drop out of service. Even a top US airline rates this aircraft......just ask Delta.
@@edwardwilcox6606exactly
You could’ve said it in a better way cause you sound like a Boeing fanboy
@@maxsaviation9512coming from an airbus one yourself
I personally don't understand the appeal of Boeing. Look at the MAX. Look at the 787 repetitive issues.
Boeing Not Rival Airbus. AIRBUS ALL VARIANT is Good Manufacturing. Content ini pembodohan
Wonderful aircraft. Beats the pants off the awful A350
AB fanboy strikes again...
Cry