A350 vs 787 - IndiGo's Massive Order
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- Опубликовано: 24 май 2024
- Indigo ordered up to 100 Airbus A350s, but why did the airline select Airbus? What is the airline looking to do with the A350s? And why wasn't Boeing the winner of the important contract?
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#aviation #news #flight #aircraft #avgeek #airplane #airlines #airport #planespotting #airbus #boeing
Can't blame any airline from going with Airbus over Boeing these days, Boeing did this to themselves!!
For decades!
There is one argument often forgotten: When the airline industry flourishs, pilots soon are in short supply, and airlines need to attract them and keep them on board. Airbus has the HUGE advantage over Boeing in commonality of the cockpit and the flight characteristics beetween their (A320 only!) narrowbodies and all current widebody models. So airlines like Indigo can offer young recruits a CAREER PATH from A320 FO to A320 captain, then getting (as a reward for something) a type training on the A350 and then moving up into the (better paid and more prestigious) flight deck of the bigger jet. A future Indigo A320 pilot would - if successful and well accepted by his management - stay with his airline rather than hop away.
Boeing once had cockpit commonality between the 757 and 767 (which was infamously utilized by Osama bL's 9/11 terror squad), but there is no sufficient similarity between the 737 and the 777/787, and certainly none between Indigo's A320s and the 787. By selecting the A350, Indigo has laid the foundation for a huge benefit in HR management.
Weird to mention 9/11. Strange, man.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 Very cheap shot at Boeing. But common on this channel. The 757 and 767 had more than just cockpit commonality. They had a common type rating. One ticket for both types. The A330 and A350 have a single type rating and and in the EU the 787 and 777 also do. The FAA requires requires a short differences course for pilots to move from one to the other. Boeing-experienced pilots have a shorter type rating course than pilots without that experience when seeking a Boeing type rating. Which is the same as Airbus offers for pilots moving from one its products to another. So that HUGE advantage is not an advantage.
Very well analyzed point.
The 757 and 767 have the same type rating, as does the A330 and A350 and in Europe at least, the 777 and 787.
@@davidcarter4247 the A330 and A350 only share a common type if it was done recently. I know guys with an older A330 type rating and they need to do a 9 day course, including a type ride.
Toulouse engineers don't need to jump up and down on the sections to make 'em (sort of) join up according to the FAA....so the service life isn't reduced by 80%.
Thanks Dj!!
As an LCC IndiGo's customers will happily accept 10 wide seating in A350s, similar to the B777s already being leased from Turkish. Pretty sure the seat mile cost in that configuration will be a lot better than the B787
Also, from 2022 Airbus has decided to widen the a350's cabin by 4 inches (10cm), which isn't a lot but it does allow to fit the standard 17 inch seats in a 10 abreast configuration. (french bee, which also uses 10 abreast seating, uses 16 inch seats).
Good job Airbus !
Both are a great choice on paper. It is just that the Boeing has a serious confidence problem.
Will it be built in accordance with the specification, and will it be delivered on time?
Will it be certified…..
@@camhusmj38 I was keeping to the probables rather than the possibles, but I fully accept your point.
@@camhusmj38 of course it will
@@nickolliver3021 Waiting on the Max 7/10 and 777x.
Most people do not know that in A350 MTOW can be adjusted by software. This saves airport fees and some fuel when not flying all seats full.
? Most airports charge via gate width/MTOW as specified WHEN the airplane is manufactured... Just how does "software" do anything? Seriously, HOW? Not a pilot flying them so, I am rather curious.
Basically A350 may have *Multiple Weight Variants* for the same particular aircraft. You can select appropriate MTOW depending on the route to pay less airport fees.
Of course you can't change this value dynamically, while flying. But if the aircraft is assigned to a shorter route than its maximum range, you can select a lower MTOW (because it will always carry lower fuel). For example domestic routes of Japan Airlines.
There are 12 predefined MTOW values to select from.
In Airbus website there is an article "Switch Weight Variant". It will answer all your questions.
@@w8stral You can purchase A350 with one of the two options:
1) Single Weight variant comes with a single MTOW. Obviously airlines select the maximum MTOW
2) Multiple Weight Variants come with upto 12 predefined MTOW selections. A350 is *certified* with all of those 12 MTOW values.
Switching from one MTOW to another is possible with software, but I think airlines use this seasonally, not per flight basis.
@@hakanevin8545 So, what EVERY aircraft has done for decades.... Only difference is a350 according to you decided to make a software toggle... sigh--> the internet
@@w8stral No, this wasn't available before.
If you don't read, you can't get it.
Normally an aircraft has ONE REGISTERED MTOW and pays fees based on that value.
An A350 can have MORE THAN ONE MTOW and airline can pay lower fees.
For example between Paris and London A350-900 can declare 210 tons. Between Paris and Tokyo it can declare 280 tons. The same aircraft. Registered, official MTOW. NOT actual take off weight.
Currently A350 is the only aircraft which can do this. Maybe Boeing does this for 777X? They'd rather do it, because in years, fee reduction may add up to millions of dollars, depending on the route of course.
Considering multiple Boeing issues, IndiGo had no choice but the A350, like Lufthansa should.
IndiGo are an LCC, 10 wide seating on the A350 will suits their market. The seat mile advantage over the B787 family in that configuration is likely to be considerable
The reason (one of them) that Indigo didn’t choose Boeing for long hall is because of the lack of fleet commonality with their existing a320 series aircraft.
my thought is that indigo purchased the a350-900 because of demand, availability (more planes from airbus in timely manner), and range, as simply the 787-10 is too heavy, no range cause boeing is cutting costs (keeping same wings and landing gears), and the order will take longer than airbus.
The 10 abreast seating is made easier on newer a350s because from 2022 Airbus has widened the a350's cabin by 4 inches (10cm), which isn't a lot but it does allow to fit the standard 17 inch seats in a 10 abreast configuration. (french bee, which also uses 10 abreast seating, uses 16 inch seats).
I wonder how long it will be before there is a push for more Airbus investment in India. With the potential size of South East Asian market in addition to the Indian market together with Airbus's order backlog maybe Airbus should consider an assembly plant in India.
Indigo Airlines: Another airline to possibly put 10-abreast economy class configuration on the Airbus A350.
Lol, that’s what I was thinking as well
Find it quite unlikely, just because they're an lcc doesn't mean they'll go 10 abreast
@@crypton7572 I think it's more likely that Indigo Airlines will put 10 abreast on the A350. Don't forget about their A321NEOs which those fleet have 232 seats inside.
Indigo is a world class airline. They should go for upmarket premium economy and economy configuration instead of business class .
The B787-10 has a too short range compared to the A350-900. Boeing didn't change the wings size compared to the B787-9. Another fail.... Boeing can't compete with Airbus in each segment. The A220 and the A321Neo has no competitive reply from Boeing. And the A350 is putting more and more pressure on widebody segment. Between the B787 and the future B777X. And the fame of Boeing is fading away too...
Its not about range. Suggest a map. Its about 1.4 Billion people, if they expect the growth projected, 787 is too small. They would have to go 787 and 777 instead of a single aircraft type a350. Short term a350 is worse than 787, but midterm a350 is better solution, and long term... well its too far out to truly predict....
The fact that Boeing has the 787-10 with a short range than a350-900 isnt another fail! airlines wouldn't be ordering it otherwise. Boeing can compete with airbus in each segment. The a220 and 321neo have competition from Boeing. The a350 and 787 are putting pressure on airlines to buy the types. Between 787 and 777x the fame of Boeing isnt going away anytime soon
Boeing will be okay. People have a short attention span these days. I think the a350 is a good choice for Indigo. They already operate Airbus jets and for compatibility it makes complete sense. People that want the demise of Boeing can look forward to a boring (Airbus) only main-line fleet. Boring…
@@nickolliver3021so what is Boeings competition to the A220 and a321? Why are you never realistic man? You being in denial about everything Boeing is the sorta attitude why they are in trouble. Saying their fame hasn’t been fading is just silly. We all know they are slipping way too much and need to adjust ASAP.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 Maybe everyone knows that Boeing is trying to adjust and you lot are wanting information to prove this but cant wait for things to actually happen to Boeing man! Why are you impatient. I'm not saying Boeing doesn't have a a220 or a321 competition but fanboys that are impatient and (like) Boeing negativity comments is silly too
I'm waiting to see if Jetblue Airways is gonna order some A350s next 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔💙💙💙💙💙💙💙
coz they can save a lot training cost for the A350. coz they have lots of A320 family.
no doubt the best choice for indigo with limited changes for the pilots!
its also about their fleet airbus has spent many decades adjusting the cockpits to be almost same handling wise for their aircraft so it would also be easier for indigo to integrate the 350 with minimal cost for training their pilots, Boeing on the other hand needs a whole new training setup for indigo to train their pilots. Also we have to factor in Boeings recent crisis which would most defiantly affected their decision making, for all we know they were about to order the 787 or 777x but de to the recent issues they may have had to rethink their decision.
Congrats to Airbus & Indigo on doing this deal on the superb A350-900. Boeing will be disappointed for sure but with excellent sales already & huge order book too for the B787 they will lick their wounds on this loss & hope to get the next one. Aren`t the airlines fortunate to have the choice of two such great airliners which `overlap` in their competitivness.
The Boeing 787 may be the Dreamliner but Boeing is a Nightmare, do they need to rename their plane? Until Boeing SACKS all the Board there is just a slow death and illegal Government subsidies. Boeing fails in its Spaceliner programme and with its link to the SLS.
There's a steady drumbeat of airlines going for the A350 ahead of the non-existant Boeing competition. The immense delay of the B777-9 has had disastrous consequences for Boeing. But I think there's even worse news. I've heard that part of the delay on the B777-9 is down to the fact it's not competitive against the A350 and this is causing redesigns to bridge that gap. Oops.
Probably a few things played a role here. Definitely, as mentioned below, cockpit commonality. This drives down costs and increases planing flexibility.
Technically, the range of the A350 make it also more flexible. This means they can serve further away destinations without the need for another aircraft. This is an area where the A350 really beats the 787, and it seems this is a key topic for operators. Even if the 787 is a few % more efficient, the shorter range kills that advantage.
Last but not least there is the "delivery dependability". To be honest, with Boeing you can be less secure on delivery dates as something may pop up and push the delivery back. We have seen that with multiple types. Airbus is more reliable in this area, which is really important when you plan to add a complete new type to your fleet (and servicing an entire new set of destinations). You must be able to rely on the delivery dates.
A350's is the right choice 👌
Chosing AirBus is always a good decision.
Don’t you think cockpit commonality between the a320/321 orders and the a350 order also had a role to play in Indigo’s decision?
The 787 and A350 are two incomparable planes. The 787 is a 767 replacement and the 350 is akin to the 777. Both planes do two completely different missions.
Indigo needs to offer direct flights from Indian cities to US cities and Europe.
This move will save a lot of time for passengers by avoiding layover in Dubai/Quatar/London etc
In general, smaller widebodies are favorable for long-haul network expansion but it seems that Indigo doesn't care. They think they can compensate for that extra overhead by discounting the extra seat to transfer passengers given that labor costs are cheaper in India versus competing Western carriers.
They will also compete with ME carriers like Emirates whose smallest aircraft is 777-300ER. So A350-900 is not that big.
Also A350 has software adjustable MTOW feature which saves costs while not flying all seats full.
@@hakanevin8545 Yeah, considering the growth rate and Volume of US-India traffic that hasn't been well touched by Indian Carriers, the Indian carrier seems not to be haggling over every ounce on which plane type is the best for their case but want them sooner so they enclose as much favorable time slot in Both US and Indian Airport as possible
@@hakanevin8545that’s not how it works with the MTOW. I’ve seen you mention this before. They can’t adjust MTOW based on passenger load.
Given airbus mfg shortfall I think the 787-9 ( not the 10 ) would have been the right choice. Because the -10 needs a different wing & probably engine to increase range 8:32
right now, 350 trumps 787- even -9 which is best in its class... no surprise there.
Confidence in the company is essential if a sale is to be made and, right now, Boeing is simply not a reliable maker.
As a Airline boss, besides the returns and being profitable, you realise that the Travel market is being changed. You can now book your flight and leave out every Boeing aircraft..That means that in the future you could loose custom by buying Boeing. The ones responsible for this, still have full control over Boeing and full American Government backing. Greed is good. Now you cant say, that at the back if Indigos management minds, there wasn't some worry about safety. To have one of your aircraft fall out the sky, (theres one due according to the whistle blower who's still alive.) would be devastating.
Jeu de main, jeu de Toulousain !
AIRBUS master of the skies👍👍👍
Airbus is strong ATM but they need to look at there manufacturing capacity as the backlog is massive.
You are totally missing the point. Airlines are planning for years ahead and are happy to wait for a quality product that they and the flying problem require.
Boeing is down the pan, without their military and space divisions they would be bankrupt.
They are also being sued by the families of US Marines killed by a known fault in the V22 Osprey.
IndiGo has a mainly Airbus fleet (and some ATRs). They wouldn't have bought the 787 anyway.
Go for A350..
Was the 777X never considered?
New airlines, and that would be a step too far. They do not know how much volume they will actually have. Could argue a350 is a step too far and should have gone a330/787
No low-cost airlines ordered the 777X because of its too large size, and too high price. The A350 is probably the largest aircraft suitable for LCLH.
And the 777X have got NO COMMONALITY with Indigo A320 fleet.
If they wanted to cram the highest amount of seats, they should have gone with the 339 or 35K which are not much more expensive than the 359 and could carry more passengers than the 777X in an all-economy seating
a350
Boeing have themselves to blame.....profit before safety unfortunately for Boeing....congratulations Airbus
330 neo feeling no love...the big loser here not the 787.
The 330neo was never intended to be a massive sales hit, but to catch as many sales from the 787 as possible. Just throwing in a wrench into the competitors concepts, keeping them on their toes.
And the winner is.......a350. Congratulations airbus
The Airbus hype is always poured on thick here as usual. Is Indigo choosing the A350 in order to become a world class airline? What low cost carrier is a world class airline? I'll wait.
Low cost carriers tend to have fleet commonality in their lines of aircraft. It helps them save money on maintenance costs and pilot training. This is just about true of any low cost carriers, with some very minor exceptions. For most aviation people, most knew that the choice was between the A330neo and the A350. The 787 was probably used to leverage a better deal from Airbus, which I'm sure they got. The rest of the video is just another excuse to hype Airbus.
Ironically, with Boeing likely to purchase Spirit Aeosystems, that means Boeing will soon be manufacturing flight critical components for the A350. Including some A350 fuselage sections.
Well, Airbus could try to convince the Italian Leonardo to make for them the fuselage, that now is made in a single piece of carbon fiber in Italy. I would see well Airbus to invite the Italian manufacturer to be part of Airbus family. The fuselage is probably the only part of the 787 that is superior to the A350.
@@luigifranceschi2350 It would literally cost millions to change suppliers for the parts Spirit designs and/or manufactures for various Airbus planes. Including the A350. And add delays. PS Spirit manufactures a significant portion of the 787 fuselage.
Boeing isn't going to purchase the whole of Spirit Aerosystems, just the parts they need.
Airbus will purchase their own parts.
If there are more companies purchasing parts of SA is unknown to me, but there are many customers SA has attracted since they became independent, thus quite possible.
Boeing is aiming at spending as little money for SA as possible. They aren't in a strong financial position anyways. As such it's the best that can happen to them.
@@jantjarks7946 You are guessing. Spirit manufactures for numerous aircraft and aircraft manufacturers. They also have design/build contracts, including with Airbus and Boeing. They just can't be split into 5 or 6 pieces. Just like a divorce, you can't cut up the children.
@@fomfom9779 I just wrote what had been reported a while ago.
The real loser is the A330neo
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✈️
If it's a Boeing, you shouldn't be going.
Take an Airbus, Bombardier or Embraer over old, tired poorly built Boeings with quality assurance problems galore.
i am your first viewer lol
787X is much needed.