Some 4AW perspective on barrel tuners
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- Опубликовано: 13 фев 2024
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I think you said it well: "trigger time...!!! Where I live we have extreme temperature changes, all the way from +30 to -30 C, so you have to build the basic experience how your rifle works with different loads and weather. And confidence comes only with trigger time, not only when it is all sunny and nice but at any situation you might come against in hunting situation...!!!👌👌👌
Cheers moko, thanks
Perfectly explained again Mark.
Confidence in yourself, your loads and rifle make all the difference.
Bless you guys, sending love from QLD as a benchrest boofhead.
Thanks Luke, Cheers
such a bloody awesome vid: no-matter what your discipline is, it just comes down to time in the seat / behind the wheel / behind the trigger / etc., ... Practice. Practice. Practice. It's about repetition and then learning to tweak things. There are NO EASY SHORTCUTS. It's just about time committed and dedicated to your craft. Mark and Sam - I love your work, as always - keep up the mahi :)
Thanks Man, Cheers
I like your approach. You just go and do it. I'm so glad you started a RUclips channel to share knowledge. Thanks for all the time, money, and effort bringing what you do to light. Cheers, mate.
Cheers Mate, thanks
Hello Mark,
My opinion is you are spot on.
Vibration is real. It moves much faster than the bullet (videos of bullet speed versus shattering glass). Heat moves nodes and frequency values- rapidly. Metal in, vibrational motion, moves in its measured action, from a solid to a liquid- I have measured the wavefront distortion which is not linear or single plane, or in the same phase. To the point of the wave front traversing the barrel several times: it is never asked what happens during the 180deg turn. It ain't no picknick. Great effort is placed in the requirement for the wave front to transfer from one surface to another. It can also be an additive event or subtraction event (a form of a "tuner" in some ways is applied). Before someone jumps up and down- Ultrasonics. A very well understood process. Using that as an example. A 20k hertz unit will move a piece of steel 30"-60" linearly (total physical displacement) in one second (peak and valley). The steel I am referring to is a 40lb piece of D2. With that thought, if 220v can move this steel to those levels - what can 50kpsi do? Where does everybody think that movement goes? Something is moving. Physics demands it. Now add torque into the mess... Concerning tuners- while it is claimed by some they have no statistical measured effect on accuracy: it cannot be explained why an "effect" is seen by many (thousands). At the very least it shows a tuner is not completely understood.
Thanks John, Cheers
I appreciate your logic, your experience, your knowledge, and your willingness to share with us. When I am on my game, my rifle performs really well. When I am of my game, my rifle performs really well but I do not get the same results.
Thanks Dave, Cheers
Good explanation... been intrigued by tuners but they honestly look to weird aesthetically. A nice brake on the other hand looks sweet! I'd love you guys to do a video one day showing your load development process. How do you find the right powder charge, seating depth etc... do you do OCW and 10 shot ladder, or something completely different. Cheers
Thanks Alex, and not much to show on the load development front, is as explained, find the happy max pressure and shoot them like that, but yes will do another vid on that in time to come, Cheers and all the best.
Thank you 'Mark'andSam for a very patient, clear and concise explanation.
Thanks man
Hi M&S. Love your channel and your products. Learned so much from you both about the discipline. I can say it doesn't take 10000hrs and huge $$ to get on plate @ 1000yrs following your approach. Could not agree more about the trigger time, understanding of tools, conditions and confidence to get there. Thankyou also for your for your support of the shooting community. Some people we're only brought up with pianos in the house and cant comprehend the similar sense of satisfaction aquired from such a sociable and challenging sport that you are an expert in. Thank you for all you have done and are doing in all regards.
Cheers Man
I use tuners on my varmint rifles with outstanding results. My 25-06 has a tuner/break on the barrel to both calm it down and to fine tune the load to the barrel. My 223s only have tuners. In each rifle I tune the load to the barrel as much as possible before installing the tuner. Then adjust the tuner to make bug holes at 200 yards. When shooting at chucks (farmers hate them) at 500 to 600 yards I need all of the help I can get. Good video.
Thanks Man
Very nice engineering explanation for non-engineers and it is 100% correct. Thank you for sharing!
Thanks John
Truer words have never been spoken on the grounds of a shooter’s confidence! You took the words right out of my mouth Mark.
Thanks Man
This was very refreshing to hear and makes a lot of sense, I follow a lot of You Tube that covers the same content and found much of it very useful and put to use what I think works for me. Everyone has their opinions on how often to clean your barrel, if tuners work or not and the necessary tools and gear needed to make quality ammo. As of late what I've been listening to is if you don't have the latest case neck turner that cuts inner and outer diameters, induction annealer and a scale that will throw charges within 1 100th of a grain with a fan blowing directly on it you're wasting your time if you think you're loading consistent ammo. This is why I say this is refreshing to hear and makes good common sense.
Thanks Man
I appreciate your candor and especially your keen sense of "Aussie Logic" as applied to our rifle shooting Mark! My Dad was also a Mechanic and I would much rather take the advice of a Mechanic over an "Engineer" on any given day!
I decided to follow your .22lr shooting using CCI Velocitors in my CZ Royal a couple of years ago, after setting it up for "long range"! All I have done since, is smile and thank my lucky stars for having found your channel a long time ago... "Cheers Mate"! :)
Thanks Man, awesome, and all the best, cheers
Excellent analysis!
Thanks Man
I fully agree with you. With the cost of ammo, I don't want to shoot more ammo at each location to tune a new location environments.
Thanks Man
Well technically you would have to load a load for each different location and environment then.
What I’m saying is, if you admit the same tune will be different for each location and or environment you are saying the one load won’t work for all of them either. So, you are going to have to know how your rifle and load is going to react to adjust for it, or you are going to have to know what to change on your load for the different location and environment. If the node shifts location and environment to location and environment it’s going to happen regardless what you have on the end of the barrel or if it is even threaded to put something on it. The tuner allows you to find a new node without chasing a new load from location and environment to location and environment, depending if it has enough adjustment.
I love that book "Germany" behind you :D
Best wishes from Germany 😘
Cheers Man
Thx for a great explanation Mr,
Cheers
Years ago UK Target Sports magazine ran a story on the French rifle manufacturer Unique who had developed a .22 rimfire alloy chassis target rifle with the assistance of a engineering dept of a major university .Your explanation of the harmonics going up and down was covered in this article.The boffins attached sensors to the barrel and alloy stock to measure the vibrations and found machining holes in the stock modified the vibration path ,similarly they developed a sliding block on the chassis with "O"rings contacting the barrrel that altered or tuned barrel harmonics.The alloy chassis rifles are outstanding for adjustments to suit different shooters bodies but in my own shooting experience mine rattled like a pebble in a coke can,whereas a wood stock naturally acts as a damper.My assumption from all this was that the alloy chassis were developed to get superior fit of rifle to shooter but they magnified the harmonics so created another issue .Old Mate my shooting mentor had it right when he said learn to shoot before you start bolting knick knacks on ya rifle .....
Cheers
Hard to argue with results, and you get awesome results
Thanks George
As always great content!!!! Confidence helps in all aspects of life.
Thanks Paul
Very informative, thanks
Cheers
Another winner, keep them coming!
Thanks Warren
Excellent video as always.
Thanks man
Thank you for sharing your perspective; it gives us a lot to consider in our own shooting. At the end of the day, spending time to reduce ("eliminate") sources of variability in decreasing order of influence on your desired result is where it's at. Those things vary by shooter, rifle/setup, caliber, and discipline (e.g. ELR vs 100m benchrest for group). Seeing what you and Sam do, I shudder to think what recoil you'd be absorbing with many of your setups if you traded out your 3- or 4-port brake for a tuner! The loss of "confidence" and accuracy due to flinch would almost certainly overwhelm any benefits of a tuner.
Thanks Man, Cheers
Cheers Mark from 🇺🇸
Thanks Lyndon
Well said Mark what ever work for a individual go for it there are so many Variables to work with
Thanks Richard
Man I have a lot to learn from you. You’re teaching valuable life lessons in something as simple shooting videos (or not so simple depending on how you want to look at it.)
Thanks again man, Cheers
So, all the gee-gaws are great, but it’s all about the nut at the stock, trigger and behind the scope.
As usual great.
Many thanks.
Thanks
Good video and reasoning.
Cheers Man
Nice one Mark, that's a real good subject for the beard stroking dudes at the local beer garden.
Lol, Cheers Man
Great content thanks for sharing
Thanks John
Hi Mark. Just to let you know that my 300WSM with 26" barrel, after installing the 4 port muzzle break that I bougth from you changed a lot!!! Changed for so much better! Armonics, tunning? Recoil manegement? Confidance? I gess I will never know!!! Thanks for all you do!
Thanks Man, glad you like too, Cheers
Couldn't agree more! Placebo affect is REAL!
Cheers Man
Well done
Cheers
I think that you are quite right about how barrel tuners work and their sensitivity to temperature, and I would add, barometric pressure. I’m mainly a short range benchrest shooter and I adjust my tuner at the beginning of every match. I know the best average setting for my ammo and I find the best for that day by adjusting plus or minus 0.001” (one graduation of the tuner weight position). I can see how that would not work for you in ELR - there are simply too many variables at play to isolate a tuner effect.
Thanks Steve
I have no barrel tuner. I try to tune my skills with trigger time 😉 Great content as always 👍
Cheers man, thanks
I have a Winchester M 70 Featherweight in 30/06 with a BOSS tuner-brake supplied from the factory, I have it tuned to 180 grain Remington core locked for hunting, untuned the rifle shot 1.5" groups, tuned it shoots sub minute groups. I have been considering an EC tuner for my Bergara B 14 carbon
Cheers
You have a fairly large caliber rifle with a THIN Sporter weight barrel. The BOSS system seems to work OK in them. Heavy weight target barrels tend not to respond very well to them. In the 1990s I bought TWO Browning Abolt Laminated Varmint Weight rifles in 22-250. They had the same BOSS tuner as you have. BOTH guns shot the same sized groups ar every setting. Ammuntiin choice had FAR MORE effect than the tuner settings.
I had different results @@JamesClark-lw6sw
I disagree 100% @@JamesClark-lw6sw
The shockwave is fast, propagating at the speed of sound! I have a tuner on my Fclass rifle and have not seen an improvement over an optimized load. BUT it clearly provides quite an improvement on my 22LR rifle using match grade ammo. I understand harmonics pretty well, but still fail to understand how just a few clicks on the tuner make such a major difference.
Thanks Charles, yes 22lr match set ups sure like em, cheers
I’m experimenting now with the EC tuner break. I’m hoping that it shorten my load development. I want to seat the bullet 20 though out and then see is what it does thru the tuners range. If i get it to 1/2MOA from say 1 MOA then I’m happy. So I like to think it’s a gross style of tuning.
Now Mark has pointed out the temperature influence I’m interested to see what deviation that will cause. (From cold bore to a hot one).
Thanks M&S for keeping my brain active.
Thanks Jeff
Almost like the person is more important than the tool. 🙂 Keep up the good work.
Everyone have a wonderful day.
Cheers Man
Barrel tuners are great for hunters using factory ammo. Not all are interested in reloading. I can get a more consistent point of impact and efficiency in limiting cold bore shots. We shoot a lot of fallow and mostly head and neck shots withing 200 meters. For a quick death and no wastage
Cheers
My work on the "tuner" subject suggests that the concept is valid but it is very dependent on the cartridge, barrel profile and weight. Without a custom tuning solution, results may vary wildly rifle to rifle.
"Wildy" lol, Cheers
Very well explained. I believe it would be possible to reduce the vibrations within the barrel steel by engraving an irregular flute pattern to disrupt the vibrations, similar to how irregular tire tread can reduce road noise. Some barrel makers have begun to experiment with this, but I think they are missing the Mark.
Lol, Cheers Man
Spot on…… don’t build confidence based on trinkets is the bottom line….. when I was a kid….we had no money…. I saved on my paper route and bought a used pellet gun with a bent front sight…. Guess what ….. I shot as good or better than my buddy who had a brand new gun….. shoot what you have and learn it well.
Yep, thanks Dennis
I use with very good success in short range bench rest for 22 lr...I use mine with a bloop tube.
Thanks Richard
For center fire rifles, tuning loads and seating depths is probably more important. For .22 lr, where you have no control over the ammo, a barrel tuner may prove more useful?
Many comp guys swear by them, Cheers
I had a rifle that wouldn't group well consistently... So I bought a tuner brake. It worked decently at the right setting. But I thought things could be better...
On a whim I removed the action from the chassis and poked around. Didn't really find anything so I reassembled the rifle and tightened the action bolts to factory specs...
Groups went from 3/4 to 1 MOA to 2 MOA or bigger. I beat my brains out trying to figure out what had occurred.
It finally occurred to me that I had tightened the bolts to the factory recommended torque.
I backed the torque off and started shooting. The plan was to incrementally tighten the bolts until groups went back to what they were before...
Lo and behold, the rifle started shooting 1/2 MOA at the starting torque... I hadn't even touched the tuner as it was set at *0"
I still use the tuner brake, but mostly just because it has the muzzle brake. The tuner is still set to "0"
I learned a valuable lesson from that fiasco.
Thanks Man, Cheers
nice explained. i have been thinking much on this. i gave worked a bit with acoustics. and my problem with this is it need to have a frequency and a amplitude. that changing in temperature . and we have all seen small groups with high ES, how can that bullet exit the same time with a high Es. of Corse it only takes like 1.2ms for the bullet to be out of the barrel. but the harmonic wave will travel 7 times at that time. i think it is confident :)
Thanks Man
Lots of testing results in you finding multiple settings that are temperature sensitive. basically, if you know the temperature you can pick your range of settings. Unfortunately, unless you're just shooting for fun or have sighting shots to verify settings you won't be able to know for sure. Or you can find a wider node that will reduce group sizes by 15-20% that will work in a wide range.
Cheers
I hundred percent agree they have their place in the market so do suppressors. I’m not a fan of those either until they can get them as quiet as in the movies. Lol but I think the real place for barrel tuners is in 22 LR I think it works best for the small caliber.
Thanks Tim, Cheers
Suppressed 22lr with subsonic rds are extremely quiet.
I like your reasoning. I have 1 rifle with a tuner brake. Works for me. But what is easier to adjust to mitigate ambient (barrel) temperature; adjusting a tuner or your load?
Thanks Man
“Trigger time”, trigger time equates to experience. Combined with a systematic regime of analysis, a way of thinking, to understand and apply the data realized for the experience, to manage the multiple variables and nuances, to achieve a goal.
This, “way of thinking”, applicable to so many disciplines, and life in general, I feel, is considered by some, to be the enemy and obstacle to their designs.
Thanks George
I don't use a barrel tuner though I have tried it with in a hunting rifle. F class shooter are using them even if they use fairly heavy rifle. They have the best ammunition they can load and that load is tuned as well as they can for that rifle. Where they use the tuner is to adjust for the changing conditions. And it seems to work for them. On the hunting side of the uses. Most hunters don't reload. They try many different factory loads until they find one that works acceptably in their rifle. With the price of ammunition these days, buying 7 or 8 boxes of ammunition can cost as much as one tuner. Then there's the question of availability. So even if you eventually find a factory load that shoots well enough in your rifle, you may find that load is not available when you need it. I don't think tuners are miraculous and can make a rifle shoot any ammunition to half MOA, but I do think it can make most loads shoot better and if that is all you need for hunting you're all set. You mentioned that temperature can have a great effect inferring that your "tune" would no longer work as you expect well the same applies to your pet load in your rifle without a tuner. I think a tuner can save you money in load development when you reload and in ammunition if you don't. The goal is to have your rifle shoot well enough for the type of hunting you do, a tuner could be very useful. Nobody wants to be stuck with a rifle that can't shoot as well as need it to. A tuner might be just the ticket.
Thanks Denis
You mean there’s a Haltech for barrels now??😂🚀
Lol, Cheers
Could do a more in depth video on your reloading process of setting a new rifle to shoot ELR?
We have videos on all those subjects, ruclips.net/video/FKPR4gaieSg/видео.html that will help, Cheers
One size shoe doesn't fit everyone, the only rifle that's interesting to me is a accurate rifle, and it starts from when you load your ammunition until you squeeze the trigger. Also as a human being you really have to condition yourself, I have learned this stuff that I have stated above over 55 plus years of shooting, good video mark.
Thanks Sherwin
Thanks for another interesting vid Mark. Just one question...there seems to be an general assumption that the harmonic wave will be in a vertical plane. Can they not be in a horizontal or other angular or even spiral plane? Personally, I have no idea regarding an answer to this...yesterday vertical seemed to make sense, but now I couldn't argue that with any legitimacy. Your thoughts?
Well only makes sense that they are all over the place, every direction on the clock, but as said, we do not bother with trying to tune them, we try to absorb them. Maybe a question for the tuner, nodes, setting depth, F class, etc folks, Cheers
Barrel tuners are a solution to a moving target. Soon as you've tuned that barrel to function exactly as desired and expected, you're locked in to that load, that firing frequency, that local weather condition, that set of cartridge and bullet parameters, and soon as something in that system changes, your barrel harmonics go beyond the set range of that tuner. And it has to be adjusted again.
Cheers Man
Yep exactly. It’s too easy to have something change and then the barrel is out of tune. When I load develop I tend to look for loads that are more forgiving rather than ones that are tuned to the tenth decimal point.
If changing temperature, load, firing frequency etc. Will screw up the harmonics on a tuned barrel, wouldn’t the same apply to tuning a load without the tuner? As soon as you change your temperature, shot frequency, etc, the load you developed under x conditions and x harmonics will no longer be tuned when you have y conditions and y harmonics.
My experience with a BOSS tuner on a .270 is that it lets me pick the bullet and charge I want, and tune the rifle to my load, vs my 30-06 where I have pick the bullet and charge that my rifle likes.
Can someone please explain if a tuner helps at only one range, or all ranges? Say it lessens your group size at 100yds by 50%, is it supposed to do that also at 500yards? Thanks
If something actually improves a group size, it will be at all ranges, that is how groups sizes work, Cheers
Unless your talking about "positive compensation "...
Where a slower bullet is aimed to hit the same point of a faster bullet...based on barrel position at the time of bullet release.....
This is a "vodoo" subject with some people saying it works and others saying prove it.....
I can mentally understand how it could happen.....
My thing is if it were true how come more people don't do it?
For folks that don’t reload and have the ability to be able to fine tune a particular load they are an interesting idea. I put one on the end of an AR10 and achieved 1/2” MOA with ball ammo.
Is it perfect? Nope.
Did it tighten up my groups with a semi-auto? Yes it did.
Thanks Rich
Just wanting something to stop barrel rise. My rifle is accurate enough out of the box.
Several potential reasons why, here's a vid on the topic ruclips.net/video/l5aEqa2mWbI/видео.html
@@markandsamafterwork nothing is ever straight forward. Thanks for the link. I’ll just put a brick on the muzzle 😂
The worst barrel harmonic whip that I've seen is in the Russian Tokareva SVT 40..(actually a slow-mow' video on YT) and I think that has to do with the locking mechanism, receiver design and gas action.. That said, I think the best improvement that can be done is in the receiver design when it comes to overall performance, such as a receiver that has a top strap.. maybe this is something that your custom gunsmith can try... balancing out the rearward steel contact support of the bolt.
Thanks
I have major engineering-based problems with tuners as well - at best they are a "maybe does something" and at worst, pure snake oil.
I understand and agree that there is a lot of complicated physics going on here. But I have yet to see any engineering tests done, that demonstrate statistically (with a probability of
Thanks Man, Cheers
Your only thinking of length....did you consider the weight of it....
I would agree with you about not trusting the salesman of the snake oil....but...
I'd also say the proliferation of tuners in sports such as benchrest is semi proof of their merits....
Look up tim sellars....and john meyers for more explanation from an engineers perspective.....
@@prone_wolf8871 I totally agree on weight! I just had an already very longwinded post and didn't want to add the other 5 objections I have. I mean, by their logic I could tape a penny to the end of their barrels and they would be "able to tell a difference," LOL.
The one thing I have found with firearms (and it's true in many other hobbies) is that the practitioners are terrible at setting up tests and processing data in a statistical manner. They will literally buy ANYTHING that makes them "think" they are making it better. The sport has 0.01% of people in it who actually know exactly what they're doing. If the intergalactic champion uses one....even if it does nothing....you need one too!
I mean, look, the one prominent RUclipsr selling these....he's a contractor who built buildings for his living. At what exact point did he go to college and get a mechanhical engineering degree, learn how to measure "harmonics" and then distill down the data to show exactly how a weight X at position Y means something? I think you know the answer. He is a good salesman; some folks are naturals at it. The real tell is when he says "your mileage may vary" with a big fat grin on his face.
Everyone should learn to think for themselves and to every extent possible, and get trained in statistics and mechanics.
@@madmat990he which your referring to eric Cortina....not sure why being coy about a discussion?
But Eric wasnt an engineer.......he just happen to befreind the guys that ARE(If I recall correctly i could be wrong on this)engineers....
I thought I herad john meyers was some type of engineer....
Same as tim sellars....who if you listen to basically tells eric theres no way to build the perfect tuner for everyones rifle.....
What he does say is one can be built that will tune the gun effectively.
Again, I'm not saying tuners is magic sauce...
@@madmat990technically....if you are good enough as a shooter...you could tell when the penny was taped on there.....
I know in my recent gas gun build the first groups out i could just tell something was wrong....came home and found I didnt have one of the gas block screws tight....
That small change shrunk the groups immensely......
I also hung 50 lb weight on my rail while firing to test poi shifts....it did nothing....
My point is...sometimes small things like a loose screw can move stuff very big......while doing something very big...like loading 50 lbs on a hand rail didn't do anything noticeable..
Not trying to argue with you....just my points of view and ideas.
Don't be confusing us with logic, data and experience
Lol, Cheers