I'd be more curious to see how that 25/100 zero worked at 5, 7, 10 yards and hear advice as to addressing those holdovers when precision may be critical.
Just aim about 2” (or whatever your site over bore is) above the target within 10 yards. You could verify this in about 1 minute and about 3 rounds of ammo.
I love maxing out the combat effective range on...everything! When most or all of your shots land on the target and you didn't have to mount an obscure optic to do it, its not unreasonable.
Good video. It reminds me of when I was in the military a d they had us shoot 100-200-300 m with submachine guns. I carried the MP5 for years, and now when I carry the G36C I miss how quiet the MP5 was!
Thanks HaleyStrategic for this... really interesting topic. Here in Switzerland we are fairly limited as to where we can fire and are for the most part relegated to 25m (or possibly 100m) indoor ranges. Have been wanting to buy a 9mm sub for a while and stats show that most firefights are within 50 yards anyway but I really wanted to know if it could be usable for a greater distance. Now I know. Higher cals can be a pain here as not all ranges permit shooting them but a 9mm is always possible :-)
Any semi auto genuine German made HK MP5 (which there never was [just a conversion]) will cost you no less than $3k Any transferable select fire MP5 will be no less than ~$24k
But SBRs can't get hits past 25yds! At least that's what the guy wearing the vest and mag carrier at the local indoor range told me with my MK18. (Sarcasm)
Great video. Precise and to the point. It’s good to know if you’re engaged by a threat or need to hit a target 200+ yds away that you can still do it if a PCC is what your carrying. My PCC is a Gen3 CX4 storm. They have 16.6’ barrels so it should definitely be up to the task. I’ll have to find a 200+ range and test it out like yourself one day. Im curious what kind of optic was being used.
Thanks a lot for this video. Very helpful. I've got a SIG MPX and love using a 6" barrel on it so my SilencerCo can sinks into the hand guard a bit. But I know running the 8" would give me a little more velocity. But is it enough to really matter? would you just run the 6"? thanks
Can you recommend a ballistics calculator and settings which shows this 25 yd zero? Most calculators seem set up for 9mm Pistol and don’t display a zero drop for 25/100.
I find calling this 25m or yard zero a little confusing. Because you never know whether that means it's tangent at 25 or as here it crosses sight of line and has another zero at greater range, which you never precisely know from just the 25m zero designation as it depends on height of the scope mount. I would prefer calling it either 25/100 for best clarity in which the shooter knows what to expect and if in only one number than rather a 100m.
i fired an MP5 a bunch of years back. it's a neat lil weapon system and very fun. that said, it was right after i had gotten back from iraq and right before i went to AFG. i would *much* rather have an M4 than an MP5.
The Great Restoration the bullet doesn’t come out of the gun in a straight line; the sights are level, but the barrel is actually angled slightly upwards. With a 25m zero, a 9mm bullet starts out below the zero point and is traveling at an upward angle, crosses the zero point at 25m, is still on its upwards arc at 50m, starts to drop somewhere around 60m, and it recrosses the zero point at around 100m.
Someone please tell me if the Bcm kmr is Travis favorite weapon? Out of all the guns he has scar and all this is the one he runs? Says a lot about that rifle if that the case cause it's all I see him run
Awesome video! You guys Prob do the best videos on youtube in terms of professional, good info, and straight to the point. Really nice to see. Was wondering what ammo and sight height you're using though? My MP5 with irons and 147grainers is hitting about 6 inches low at 100 yard with a 25 yard zero.... Are you using 115gr or 124gr? higher sight above bore to get those POI? Definitely shows why practice means more than anything.... Thanks!
Honestly there are so many factors when it comes to zeroing a firearm the only true method is to experiment yourself to see what works with your setup. When choosing a zero I always first figure out what ranges I intend to use it for. I then use a ballistic calculator to as accurately as I can map out the ballistic curve for the ranges I intend to shoot. I have some nontypical zeros on a few setups but that's what they like so that what I use. Try a 15 yard zero as it should fly about 1in high out to about 80 yards then start to drop off with 147gr. I ran the ballistic just now and want to test it too.
No. 9mm (and most subcalibers) reaches nearly full velocity in barrels as short as 4.5". This is one reason I think the MAC is the best SMG designed. It has the optimal barrel length in the most compact package out there as well as being super simple to build from scratch on the fly. Of course, "difference" depends on your BPZ or as Haley calls it "combat effective zone". If your tolerance is man sized targets, you won't see any difference unless you change bullet weights. If your tolerance is a 2" square, the area required for a single shot drop then you will see a difference and you likely won't want to shoot past 50 yards, likely closer like 15 realistically when you account that people move around even when just standing. JRG has it right. You should be looking up this information on computer generated graphs then confirming it at the range. For all you know I could just be blowing smoke and if you are relying on this information, that isn't good.
The primary purpose of a SMG is a platform that can be silenced providing quieter options than rifles, but faster firing than manual actions. Due to the short barrel length and the inherent subsonic capabilities and short bolt travel, a SMG can be made silenced with an OAL similar to an unsupressed 10" SBR. That said, subcaliber bullets are heavy. A projectile is 115 grains or heavier typically, which is equivilent to a x39 round. 5.56 is unique as it is lighter than most subcalibers but with rifle energy which is why so many countries have been copying it's design. Due to this weight (and of course the inherent bulk of a stocked firearm... with the exception of a MAC which is similar to handgun size, hint hint), if you are wanting a backup, stick to a handgun which is far more compact. If you need an aid to shooting, a pistol stock is available for glocks and can be fabricated for many other handguns which is much lighter and compact than any SMG (except maybe not a MAC). Of course, I am speaking from the perspective of no illegal gun law restrictions getting in the way or cost. Subcaliber carbines (non automatic SMGs) are used as an economy option being cheaper to feed than a rifle (unless you use russian steel case). Frankly my call is that if you aren't going to have the SMG in a barrel length shorter than 5" and suppressed, stick with a handgun. Aside from being quiet, anything a SMG can do, a 5.56 rifle can do better INCLUDING having less overpenetration than a subcaliber. how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html
Dave Smith Logistics can be a pain in situations like Katrina is another reason. We didn't have to go loud there but other teams did. I carried 4 spare mags there for my rifle. As you know, during an IAD to get out of there it's pretty easy to go through a standard loadout in under a couple minute.We brought 1500 rifle rounds and 500 pistol rounds for a 3 man team. Pistol caliber carbines were something we talked about afterwards. Most contact was under 100 meters for the guys that got into it there. The hearing protection aspect was something that really appealed to me after having an earplug come partly out in a shoot house. That's when I really started looking into a 9mm long gun.
If you are firing 9mm at someone from 200 meters something went very wrong in preparation and planning. Isn't the unsuppressed subgun effectively dead in LE use anyway?
again, you cant plan your gunfight, just like north hollywood shootout and others in the past... and no the Subgun is far from dead in LE. and it is the most use LE gun outside the US as well. Plus this isn't just for LE, with the large push on SMGs and the PCC market right now there is plenty of room for this knowledge.
Half your American subscribers probably have a "Bailout Bag" and rifle in the vehicle and the pigs probably have a better stocked bailout bag the taxpayer paid for. Cops have far less excuses than most to not have a rifle accessible. "North Hollywood" was the practically "One Off" event cops used to arm up like military units.........so where are the rifles we the taxpayer got bent over to pay for?
I understand he trains law enforcement, but to my knowledge mcso uses azpost firearms instructors and that is a mcso owned and operated range. non leo would need special permission or be posse to use that range. I just wanted to know how he got access. The sheriff doesnt just let anyone or any instructor use his range lol
Nobody Cares at this point Haley Strategic is an established name that bears weight. It's all about the reputation. That aside Haley is a tactical god who doesn't need permission for anything. It's actually a crime if you don't offer him your sister or mom.
My CZ Evo is zeroed for 20. The longest shot I can take inside my home - which is the longest shot I can take without going to jail. I know my hold overs.
This guy said he held a 10 foot holdover to get combat effective hits on his target at 300 YDS. with his 9mm MP5K DID HE MEAN THAT ??? or was his hold over 10 inches over the targets head at 300 Yards ??????????????????? (10 FEET Holdover Can't be right @ 300)?
John Wisch yes it is a 10 foot hold over or 110 inches approximately if you look it up in a ballistic calculator this is completely normal just like any other weapon system will drop out as well
You military types speak very strangely. You just follow the leader, and speak just like the guy who spoke before you. Key word: “Follow.” I would never decide to sign over ownership of myself to a “Terrorist Organization”, which is exactly what one does when they join a military, they are owned by the Government. I really hope that one day a majority of the military realizes that they are still part of the American People, and they’re still just debt slaves like the rest of the American population. Start thinking folks, and then start Uniting For Freedom!!
With Vectors, Scorpion EVOs, and more becoming more common, I think this is a valid video topic. Thanks for the info!
"In training, if it doesn't challenge you, it won't change you" great outro line!
Even though this is 4 years old, it is still very relevant. Especially with HK coming out with the SP5. Thank you.
Got an Evo last week which is zeroed at 25 and just got back from the range and banging steel at 100 and 200 yards- very helpful video!
I'd be more curious to see how that 25/100 zero worked at 5, 7, 10 yards and hear advice as to addressing those holdovers when precision may be critical.
William Sack my hi point 995 is zeroed at 25 and at 7 yards it’s exactly the height above bore off from the aim point
Those holdovers within 10 yards are going to be your mechanical offset between hour optics and barrel.
Just aim about 2” (or whatever your site over bore is) above the target within 10 yards.
You could verify this in about 1 minute and about 3 rounds of ammo.
I love maxing out the combat effective range on...everything! When most or all of your shots land on the target and you didn't have to mount an obscure optic to do it, its not unreasonable.
Good video. It reminds me of when I was in the military a d they had us shoot 100-200-300 m with submachine guns. I carried the MP5 for years, and now when I carry the G36C I miss how quiet the MP5 was!
4 years later, and I'm still curious how well 9mm did at 300 metres.
Things I've been searching for, for forever.
Thanks for the advice.
Thanks HaleyStrategic for this... really interesting topic. Here in Switzerland we are fairly limited as to where we can fire and are for the most part relegated to 25m (or possibly 100m) indoor ranges. Have been wanting to buy a 9mm sub for a while and stats show that most firefights are within 50 yards anyway but I really wanted to know if it could be usable for a greater distance. Now I know. Higher cals can be a pain here as not all ranges permit shooting them but a 9mm is always possible :-)
Great hits. I shoot with a Micro T2 at 100 yards and it's really fun to see what you can do without magnification.
Professional, informative and educational video on a lesser covered topic...thanks for the video
200-300 yard shots without magnification is impressive. Better than I can do at my current skill level.
What grain bullet?
Can I just say how much I like that setup on the MP5
Any semi auto genuine German made HK MP5 (which there never was [just a conversion]) will cost you no less than $3k
Any transferable select fire MP5 will be no less than ~$24k
TobyTheBlackDog Zenith for 1600
prob only around $1600, because its probably a post sample dealer gun or LE.
Way to go James! Nice to see you on the Haley squad!
that mp5 in ungodly amounts of sexy
Fantastic video. Concise and definitive.
This is awesome. I need to take your subgun class.
But SBRs can't get hits past 25yds! At least that's what the guy wearing the vest and mag carrier at the local indoor range told me with my MK18. (Sarcasm)
lol
Robert_K Funny thing, that guy is at my local range too.
Really? (LOL) Did he walk around talking more than shooting too? He kept quoting some MagPul DVDs too. ;)
It was a Haley class in Indiana where I saw a guy make a first round hit with a RDS equipped 10.5” 5.56
Great video. Precise and to the point. It’s good to know if you’re engaged by a threat or need to hit a target 200+ yds away that you can still do it if a PCC is what your carrying. My PCC is a Gen3 CX4 storm. They have 16.6’ barrels so it should definitely be up to the task. I’ll have to find a 200+ range and test it out like yourself one day. Im curious what kind of optic was being used.
I’m here with the exact same rifle as you trying to decide if I want to keep the 50yd Zero or not. Great gun choice!
Minute of badguy accuracy all the way out to 300 with a 9mm... Now you got me thinking :D
More videos like this please. Less product sales
This guy has that "Ricky Recon" look 💯
He looks like he was a Gunny
Definitely
g496r500t lol, you guys are right on with the Ricky Recon but way off on the rank... think a bit higher
Looks like an officer to me. At the very least a captain.
Let's just say, this guy is a major bad ass.
How is James' shirt clean and crisp after three trips to the deck? Nice groups, though.
Ive never heard a round like that. It breaking the sound barrier is the strangest sound like pulsating
It's just the echoing bouncing off the walls.
don't know James..never seen James...but I like em' 👍
KoolStoryBreh you'll be seeing a lot more of him
Awesome video!
What type of Ammo/Bullet Weight was used for this demo? I use almost exclusively 147r Subs w/ a can. Can I expect the same results?
Thanks a lot for this video. Very helpful. I've got a SIG MPX and love using a 6" barrel on it so my SilencerCo can sinks into the hand guard a bit. But I know running the 8" would give me a little more velocity. But is it enough to really matter? would you just run the 6"? thanks
Great Video!
very interesting to see. I need to take my 9 millimeter AK out to see what it can do.
Great content. Thank you!
Just curious what type of rounds do you like to run out of a sub gun. 115, 124, 147?
Fuckn good shooting (groups) with a pistol length barrel 9mm and a dot sight at those ranges. Good stuff.
That was fun to watch. I suspect he's a whole lot better shot than i am:)
Really interesting video.
I guess at 300 this is where bursts of 2-3 come in handy. The MP5 is a very capable platform!
what ammo were you using. i shoot 147gr as it is subsonic and it drops much more than that. Good info as always.
yes you are correct. this was 115
Nice shooting
Curious as to what ammunition you were using? Bullet type, weight, and powder loading.
this was standard 9mm 115 training ammo, so of course better results with better ammo. we typically use CORBON DPX
Great video - do you guys have any data about the energy that a common 9mm round will still have at 200 and 300 yards?
around 900 velocity / 209ft lbs energy @200yards. Then approx 800 velocity / 170ft lbs energy @300yards.
Excellent, thank you! Still clearly potentially lethal at those distances.
When can I come work for Haley Strategic?
interesting, but what is the terminal damage of the 9mm at that range? will the 9mm have enough left to kill at that distance?
Ken Morrison yes. Easily.
M85FSLUVR cool never reached out that far to check myself.
look up how far will a 9 mm kill by Iraqveteran8888
still running around 900 velocity / 209ft lbs energy @200yards. Then approx 800 velocity / 170ft lbs energy @300yards.
HaleyStrategic sweet thanks for that. me thinks that that will leave a bit of a mark ha ha
What s that random slab of wood sticking out of the cliff?
Great video
I have to try this with my M11/9 SMG with the 10 inch upper and my M10/45 with Lage upper. I usually only shoot them up to 50 yards.
Nice slogan
Can you recommend a ballistics calculator and settings which shows this 25 yd zero?
Most calculators seem set up for 9mm Pistol and don’t display a zero drop for 25/100.
Take a look at Strelok
Watching this for my P365 Flux Raider!
Just what I was looking for.
Standard 115 grn. ball?
I find calling this 25m or yard zero a little confusing. Because you never know whether that means it's tangent at 25 or as here it crosses sight of line and has another zero at greater range, which you never precisely know from just the 25m zero designation as it depends on height of the scope mount.
I would prefer calling it either 25/100 for best clarity in which the shooter knows what to expect and if in only one number than rather a 100m.
I was also thinking I am not so sure about 200 meter shots with 9mm. Then I decided I don't want be the test medium
and find out if it works.
With a 25 meter zero what is the point of impact at closer distances?
i fired an MP5 a bunch of years back. it's a neat lil weapon system and very fun. that said, it was right after i had gotten back from iraq and right before i went to AFG. i would *much* rather have an M4 than an MP5.
MP5 is built for NATO spec ammo which is.already pretty hot.
Very informative!
>holdover of 10ft
At 300m? Wow, that's quite the drop from 200m!
Great video! I just sighted my pcc in at 25 so I guess I did it right lol
What is the Ammo? 115gr? 124gr Nato?
What causes the higher Point of Impact at 50 with a 25 meter zero?
The Great Restoration the bullet doesn’t come out of the gun in a straight line; the sights are level, but the barrel is actually angled slightly upwards.
With a 25m zero, a 9mm bullet starts out below the zero point and is traveling at an upward angle, crosses the zero point at 25m, is still on its upwards arc at 50m, starts to drop somewhere around 60m, and it recrosses the zero point at around 100m.
Someone please tell me if the Bcm kmr is Travis favorite weapon? Out of all the guns he has scar and all this is the one he runs? Says a lot about that rifle if that the case cause it's all I see him run
What weight and speed round were you using?
Awesome video! You guys Prob do the best videos on youtube in terms of professional, good info, and straight to the point. Really nice to see.
Was wondering what ammo and sight height you're using though? My MP5 with irons and 147grainers is hitting about 6 inches low at 100 yard with a 25 yard zero.... Are you using 115gr or 124gr? higher sight above bore to get those POI?
Definitely shows why practice means more than anything....
Thanks!
Honestly there are so many factors when it comes to zeroing a firearm the only true method is to experiment yourself to see what works with your setup. When choosing a zero I always first figure out what ranges I intend to use it for. I then use a ballistic calculator to as accurately as I can map out the ballistic curve for the ranges I intend to shoot. I have some nontypical zeros on a few setups but that's what they like so that what I use. Try a 15 yard zero as it should fly about 1in high out to about 80 yards then start to drop off with 147gr. I ran the ballistic just now and want to test it too.
How did you get the D3 sling to work with the MP5?
Good stuff!
What gain of bullet was used in this video
Does barrel length make much of a difference? I've been looking into. a Colt 9mm carbine for CONUS work.
I have. I'd rather ask somebody with experience though. Numbers doesn't always reflect real world is why.
No. 9mm (and most subcalibers) reaches nearly full velocity in barrels as short as 4.5". This is one reason I think the MAC is the best SMG designed. It has the optimal barrel length in the most compact package out there as well as being super simple to build from scratch on the fly.
Of course, "difference" depends on your BPZ or as Haley calls it "combat effective zone". If your tolerance is man sized targets, you won't see any difference unless you change bullet weights. If your tolerance is a 2" square, the area required for a single shot drop then you will see a difference and you likely won't want to shoot past 50 yards, likely closer like 15 realistically when you account that people move around even when just standing.
JRG has it right. You should be looking up this information on computer generated graphs then confirming it at the range. For all you know I could just be blowing smoke and if you are relying on this information, that isn't good.
I'm thinking this will probably be a 0-150 meter pistol that I can get better hits with. Would that be a good way to look at it?
The primary purpose of a SMG is a platform that can be silenced providing quieter options than rifles, but faster firing than manual actions. Due to the short barrel length and the inherent subsonic capabilities and short bolt travel, a SMG can be made silenced with an OAL similar to an unsupressed 10" SBR.
That said, subcaliber bullets are heavy. A projectile is 115 grains or heavier typically, which is equivilent to a x39 round. 5.56 is unique as it is lighter than most subcalibers but with rifle energy which is why so many countries have been copying it's design. Due to this weight (and of course the inherent bulk of a stocked firearm... with the exception of a MAC which is similar to handgun size, hint hint), if you are wanting a backup, stick to a handgun which is far more compact. If you need an aid to shooting, a pistol stock is available for glocks and can be fabricated for many other handguns which is much lighter and compact than any SMG (except maybe not a MAC).
Of course, I am speaking from the perspective of no illegal gun law restrictions getting in the way or cost. Subcaliber carbines (non automatic SMGs) are used as an economy option being cheaper to feed than a rifle (unless you use russian steel case).
Frankly my call is that if you aren't going to have the SMG in a barrel length shorter than 5" and suppressed, stick with a handgun. Aside from being quiet, anything a SMG can do, a 5.56 rifle can do better INCLUDING having less overpenetration than a subcaliber.
how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html
Dave Smith Logistics can be a pain in situations like Katrina is another reason. We didn't have to go loud there but other teams did. I carried 4 spare mags there for my rifle. As you know, during an IAD to get out of there it's pretty easy to go through a standard loadout in under a couple minute.We brought 1500 rifle rounds and 500 pistol rounds for a 3 man team. Pistol caliber carbines were something we talked about afterwards. Most contact was under 100 meters for the guys that got into it there. The hearing protection aspect was something that really appealed to me after having an earplug come partly out in a shoot house. That's when I really started looking into a 9mm long gun.
What s the grain of the fmj round being used...
How can you aim that center dot with just RD and no magnification at 200 yards???
frusfromus it's very simple hold the dot over the black center it's not that big at that distance
Damn good vid..thx
lobbing them rounds in lmao.
If you are firing 9mm at someone from 200 meters something went very wrong in preparation and planning. Isn't the unsuppressed subgun effectively dead in LE use anyway?
AKlover Internationally its the most popular weapon platform for leo.
AKlover most important rule of any gunfight is this: AVOID any possible gunfight!
AKlover Yep. Subguns are a thing of the past. 5.56 and 300BLK SBRs have rendered subguns obsolete.
again, you cant plan your gunfight, just like north hollywood shootout and others in the past... and no the Subgun is far from dead in LE. and it is the most use LE gun outside the US as well. Plus this isn't just for LE, with the large push on SMGs and the PCC market right now there is plenty of room for this knowledge.
Half your American subscribers probably have a "Bailout Bag" and rifle in the vehicle and the pigs probably have a better stocked bailout bag the taxpayer paid for. Cops have far less excuses than most to not have a rifle accessible. "North Hollywood" was the practically "One Off" event cops used to arm up like military units.........so where are the rifles we the taxpayer got bent over to pay for?
Wonder how a 16 inch barrel changes things.
Is this Rio Salado Range?
Hit in the ding ding at 200yds
What range is that?
What weight ammo was used in this
A 36 yd zero isn't an option for the 9mm carbine?
it appears 20 to 25 yards is optimum for a 9mm carbine.
I used to be with MCSO and qualified at that county range next to Joe Foss, how did a non-leo get access??
Nobody Cares they're at that range for almost all his videos
Yeah I noticed that..just wondering how they got access since that range is non public and law enforcement only
Nobody Cares HS trains LEO
I understand he trains law enforcement, but to my knowledge mcso uses azpost firearms instructors and that is a mcso owned and operated range. non leo would need special permission or be posse to use that range. I just wanted to know how he got access. The sheriff doesnt just let anyone or any instructor use his range lol
Nobody Cares at this point Haley Strategic is an established name that bears weight. It's all about the reputation. That aside Haley is a tactical god who doesn't need permission for anything. It's actually a crime if you don't offer him your sister or mom.
What about at 7 yards with mp5?
.45 acp , .458 socom and .50 beowulf would be likely more interesting in test like this..
My CZ Evo is zeroed for 20. The longest shot I can take inside my home - which is the longest shot I can take without going to jail. I know my hold overs.
Looks like MCSO range.
This guy said he held a 10 foot holdover to get combat effective hits on his target
at 300 YDS. with his 9mm MP5K DID HE MEAN THAT ??? or was his hold over 10 inches over the targets head at 300 Yards ??????????????????? (10 FEET Holdover Can't be right @ 300)?
John Wisch yes it is a 10 foot hold over or 110 inches approximately if you look it up in a ballistic calculator this is completely normal just like any other weapon system will drop out as well
I believe you. Watch out for that last 100 yards of distance, the fall off is a Doosey.
Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.
3-5x Magnifier and that is a Sniper Rifle.... okay not really, but you get the idea.
that's so kool
jerry mickulek ran out of distance, who would thought you need more than 1000 yards on a revolver range
No daddy Haley no crayons or like!
9mm drops like 10" every 100yrds.. your hits from 200yrds are perfectly OK
dat mp5 tho
That's a lot of block wall.....
You are laying on the ground, and there isnt any dirt on your clothes?
Sal Ar Glad you got something out of the video!
HaleyStrategic situational awarness, anyway you guys are fucking badass.
HaleyStrategic Haha, funny shit!
i dont see how you can wear a black shirt in phoenix...
Black actually keeps heat out, kinda like if yu put a black sheet up on a window to keep it dark, if you put a white sheet up, light comes in.
"This video was made for the THREE of you that still use a 9MM subgun for defensive use."
You military types speak very strangely. You just follow the leader, and speak just like the guy who spoke before you. Key word: “Follow.” I would never decide to sign over ownership of myself to a “Terrorist Organization”, which is exactly what one does when they join a military, they are owned by the Government. I really hope that one day a majority of the military realizes that they are still part of the American People, and they’re still just debt slaves like the rest of the American population. Start thinking folks, and then start Uniting For Freedom!!
Nice!!!