@adrianaslund8605 The book is set in the United States. AOC there is 18. In most places in the world, it is no lower than 16. The events in this book are child rape.
@@Pastellera2video hard movie to watch fore sure.... i stil think it has it place in cimenas greatest movies. gross for sure, and kinda slimy and sly at the same time. it exposes what people think about taboo subjects. And suprisingly many miss the point entirely. people are fucked up, i think.
Patrick Bateman, to me, was a character I could laugh at, could cringe at. He’s so dull, so utterly consumed with the dumbest things. So many dumbdumbs equate the character (and people with anti-social behavior) as unusually intelligent, when that’s actually rarely the case. They may appear so because they see things the general public doesn’t see, they manipulate in ways the average human cannot imagine and they do it effortlessly. But, they are dumb. At their core, they’re not truly intelligent. I went on a weird tangent. Sorry🤣
If the author truly wanted to bring attention to the double standard of female-on-male rape, especially in the context of older women and younger boys and teacher/student rape, she should have written the story from the POV of THE CHILD.
@@juststatedtheobvious9633 I haven't read Tampa, but Nutting's previous work was surreal/bizzaro stories with a feminist slant. Her "aimed audience" are feminists.
Trying this again.... How do you show his incredibly immature perspective without writing dark erotic fantasy for those who won't care what happens beyond that point? Asking as a survivor who had bad experiences with the exact kind of audience that book is targeting. Look at how often "but they enjoyed it" and "they don't act like my idea of how a victim should behave" is used to discredit our stories as it is?
@@Stettafire this author is being slandered here. It's not a YA romance. Its a literary novel for adults from ten years ago. It was written to attempt to understand female molesters because the author discovered she knew one in real life. The author WASN'T trying to "bring attention to the double standard" she was trying to understand her former colleague's actions.
I related to My Dark Vanessa and how realistic it is regarding what it is to be groomed and how extremely hard it is on victim to see through how wrong the situation is. Because it was through the victim’s POV, I got through it and it’s in my top 10 books of all time, but I 100% understand where people who do not have SA or trauma backgrounds would be confused on the things that happen in My Dark Vanessa and how accurate it is re: victim actions and mental/emotional unhinged state that is very hard to first see, and then crawl out of and get better.
she used to write articles about anxiety and mental health for blogs and there were tons of incel men making fun of her name then (nutting is nuts lol!) etc
Fun fact: I read this in high school out of morbid curiosity and I had to put a piece of tape over the cover just so everyone would shut the FUCK up about it
“I guess in Nutting’s world, men don’t give a shit about CSA” I read this book and then went to watch videos about LaFave or whatever her name was. UHM. The comment sections were so horrific. Just hundreds on men wishing that they had had hot teachers to groom and abuse them. Men talking about how it’s not abuse when it happens to boys, it’s bragging rights. Men saying that when it happened to them, they didn’t suffer any trauma. Men saying that age of consent is stupid because a 13 year old boy knows what he wants. I thought maybe society had grown some in the past decade but apparently a huge population of men would rather put a stamp of approval on women abusing boys.
They don't see that porn addiction, lack of empathy in their relationships, sexual sadism, various fetishes, depression, anxiety, sex obsession, and disconnectedness with society are connected to prior sexual abuse. The lack of defense we have had towards young boys and protecting their sexuality is having a down stream effect on our society. Keep ringing that bell every time you see it. PS: personally not here to debate the permissibility of any of the above. I've been through it and I'd give it all 0/10. If you think relationships between men and women have improved thanks to Internet porn, teenage sex, casual sex, and the popularity of S&M, let's just call it a push and not get into it.
literally terrifying, their minds are so rotted that they dont even realize the kind of suffering any type of those wish fulfillment's would bring, generations of boys growing up to think this is something worth bragging over is just sad
It can, and will, leave a mark on the 13 year old boy that he will bear for life, whether they want to admit it or not. There might be those who have issues later in life and not recognize the root of that evil, but that obviously doesn't mean there was no damage done. It leaves a scar regardless of what those men may say. It leaves a scar even if they're too dense to see it. From experience, I'm forever caught between forgiveness and the damage done.
i feel like a lot of books that end up getting compared to lolita kind of forget the fact that there *is* no erotic content in nabokovs book. the whole point of lolita was to write an obscene story that had no curse words in it, to point out the absurdity of what was considered obscene at the time. curse words are a no go, but a whole book about a child being molested? well, guess that's fine, because there's no cursing 🤷🏼♂️ that's honestly a big part of why tampa didn't work for me, personally. as a satire, as an unreliable narrator, as pointing out the double standards... it just didn't work in many ways.
4:12 "Do you think you can mix eroticism or erotica with social commentary and satire when it comes to child SA." Before we even start the book: As a writer, no I can't.
@@tVt2000though, I do quite enjoy it when someone tries if only because in almost every circumstance I have seen, that person is a closeted weirdo and outs themselves on the spot(vaush moment)
@@spookyfirst9514 Lolita is not erotic though. The book is written in such a way as to repulse you, not to titillate. I can't think of any books that mix erotica and CSA together well.
1:13:04 "I don't want to hear about men writing women ever again, bad writing is just bad writing regardless of sex." Yes, it is. Fearful nipples are just as bad as breasting boobiliy down the stairs.
The problem is that if you want to use colorful language, you need to have the framing firmly in place. There shouldn't be question as to where the narrator's perspective is. If there's any reasonable chance that it is omniscient perspective and isn't part of a satirical or comedic delivery, it will probably fall flat because the reader will be thinking about the writer's taste when anything remotely cringe drops into the language. If the cringe is meant for a fourth-wall effect or to make you laugh or eyeroll, the reader shouldn't be doubting that the narration has that clear note of imperfection or writer/reader sympathy.
Debra Lafave was my daughter's 7th grade reading teacher, and turned out to be a good friend of mine, we hung out all the time. The boy that she slept with was my daughter's arch enemy. She has a lot of mental problems. Obviously as soon as I found out what was going on I cut ties with her, but before that, she did not seem like this horrible person she was very kind and funny and selfless and apparently screwed up enough in the head she want to start a relationship with a 14 year old. The day they started recognizing each other that way, they were going to a middle school trip to SeaWorld and my daughter came home in tears, not understanding why Debbie, at that time her name was Mrs. Beasley was sitting next to that kid on the bus and not next to her like usual. Debbie told my daughter that it was because the kid tended to be bad and act up on trips. It broke her heart.
I'm glad you compared this to splatterpunk at the end because that's exactly what i was thinking the whole time. Had the same vibe as someone sitting hunched over going "teehee this is gunna be so fucked up!" While they type away
I also want to say that despite how gross and appalling the book is... at least it had the decency to fully acknowledge that the narrator is clearly the villain, and doesn't portray children as being responsible for seducing the main character. In the two film adaptations of Lolita, the clear implication is that Lolita is framed as the party responsible for the relationship. In both those movie adaptations, they portrayed Lolita(a child) as some sort of temptress/seductress. The framing of this narrative actually made me feel sorry and horrible for all the poor kids the narrator seduced. I actually felt kind of sorry for the narrator too, BUT ONLY because they are a person clearly without empathy, without guilt, without remorse, for violating children in the most disgusting way imaginable. The narrator didn't just violate children... they also murdered their own humanity in order to become the monster that they are.
I’ve only seen the Jeremy Irons one but you have gravely misunderstood that film if you think it portrayed Lolita as the instigator. You have to be snappy and perhaps have some awareness of the book and how cleverly it is written but every moment of the film condemns Hubert. I can’t speak for the other film as I haven’t seen it, but I suggest you rethink that interpretation. Part of the problem may be how accessible the film is to people who are too young to understand just how usefully problematic it is.
@@rilasolo113 It literally did. The director himself considered it romantic. They actively romanticize and try to make the audience complicit in Humbert's hebephilic gaze and make Dolores look older than she actually is, alongside aging her up to 14, which is old for a hebephile. The movie dresses her in clothes that she didn't wear, and sexual-ized late 1940's children play clothes. This is not seen by Humbert Humbert, because this is not what Humbert is attracted to. Dolores is a tomboy in the book. He wanted her dresed like a LITTLE girl because that was sexy to him. The 97 movie threw all of that out the window for the sake of sexu-alizing the character in a way that appealed to the gaze of men attracted to (young) adult women so it would be easier to blame her and view her as complicit in her abuse. The movie doesn't show her absolute despair, the beatings, the starvings. It skips over the foreword and the narrative framing device, too. The costume design in the 97 cherry-picked revealing designs from the late 40s that they could just so get away with in order to sexu***alize Dolores for a modern audience. If she were dressed to Humbert's gaze she would be dolled up like a young girl from that era. He hated teenage girls. Any indication of Dolly claiming womanhood or anything shaping or showing off her body growing disgusted him. The designs constantly showing off her stomach or accentuating her breasts or giving the illusion of curves are there so the viewer is keyed to regard her as a sexual object to make her abuse more palatable. The movie was attempted CSE*M. The director... chooses a notorious scene from the novel in which Dolores is sitting on Humbert's naked lap, "picking her nose while engrossed in the lighter sections of a newspaper, as indifferent to my ecstasy as if it were something she had sat upon, a shoe, a doll, the handle of a tennis racket, and was too indolent to remove." He wanted to turn it into a explicit "love*making" scene using a body double to show Humbert **** from Behind, while Dolore's torso "arches in ecstasy", her "face contorted orgas****", when Humbert himself says "Never did she vibrate under my touch." and calls her "Frigid princess", as in frigid, a woman with no interest or enjoyment in se*. That scene had to be replaced by THE CHI***LD PORNOG****RAPHY PREVENTION ACT OF 1996, as it ruled illegal to not only have a minor engage in "sexu****ally explicit conduct" for a scene, but also to make it appear as if a minor was engaging in such conduct. You are defending a movie that is softcore CSE**.
If the book meant to make people uncomfortable with its language alone, I think it succeeded. I get the feeling that the author honestly tried to bring awareness to a problem, but went about it the wrong way. Namely, it focused too much on ‘triggering’ people, rather than bringing up a discussion. One of those ‘rage baiting’ to sell more copies kind of situations. In which case, I guess the book was a success. I mean, come on, the writer name alone is enough to stir some bad jokes and arguments. Personally, I'm not one to shy away from spicy books and erotica, or problematic themes, but this book combines two topics that mix about as well as oil and water (glorify sex and sexual liberation and a particular style of horror/psychological exploration of mental derangement). Each one, by itself, could garner an honest audience, but together I struggle to see who it’s for.
It was definitely done in poor taste. It makes me wonder how many people who read this book actually got off to it. I stopped reading the book half way through, it read too much like an erotica. I wouldn't be surprised if the book was marketed towards child predators
I got the feeling that she may have wanted to explore it, but mistakenly focused on the crime instead of the criminal. She said she didn't want to "humanise" the character, but it also meant that we have no idea who they are. How can we understand someone if we don't know anything about them?
@@Blue_Sonnet exactly. She definitely could've explored the relationship the teacher had with her husband imo. That relationship is disturbing in itself, the idea that a woman is forcing herself to be in a marriage with a man she's not even attracted to. But that's just an opinion of mine. By focusing on the crime the book lost its theme
"Okay, what ridiculously tiny moral slight did this author commit that will be blown-..." "It's about a female teacher and sexual predator preying on her students and the book is largely pornographic." "Oh." "I told you this would be bad." "Yeah, yeah, you did."
The timing on this is something. I just saw a story on Law and Crime yesterday about a grown woman posing as a 14 year old to SA boys. I cannot imagine how someone could write this subject matter to titillate. Commenting for the algo and this is a topic of discussion in both life and clearly, publishing (but why HC? Why? That's a great question) that's very needed, but this is revolting. You're a champ, Ian, to read this stuff and tackle this. Edit to add: You saying that its written to spread the darkness and corrupt people who read it - YES! It's the person who wants to watch the world burn, gets off on it by spreading the misery.
So many cases of female sexual perpetrators in the school systems all over the country. Its insane. I just cant believe every other day i hear about some alleged teacher rapist or woman pretending to be a teenager. Something is very very wrong with society these days.
The author perhaps has a desire to see her degenerate predatory fantasies become a social contagion which she can later harvest. I hope the FBI is keeping a file on. Her, God only knows what she's done or what's on her hard drive. You don't sit down every day and write this stuff, page after page day after day without a genuine intrest in it.
You should do the audio book for this. The whole thing read in that annoyed and offended tone. Then it ends with a loud "Ugh!" and the noise of the book hitting the far wall. Hilarious.
It's honestly kinda cringe. It tries too hard to be disturbing. It's sensationalist shock value. Honestly, we shouldn't reward that kind of behaviour. It's just a race to the bottom
What she wrote was abuse not sexual content and the fact that she authentically views it as sexual content that "liberates" her as a woman is all you need to know.
@@kayligo many things, one thing Tampa did differently is the context of the prose. Lolita is a transcription of the confession/autobiography Humbert Humbert wrote while in prison awaiting trial for the crimes he committed, while he writes the words he knows the entire story, it’s past tense. He also goes over his life before meeting Dolores, including the event that sparked and the then development of his pedophilia. Tampa is also first person but it is present first person narration, no context behind the prose or why it exists, and the author deliberately avoided going over the development of her pedophilia but she has no character outside of it, so as a result she’s flat. Like kids cartoon villain she is constantly bitter, malevolent, and conniving for one reason, being a sex obsessed pedophile, and why is she that? Just because. Humbert tries to trick the reader and himself through a labyrinth of delusions and charisma, what’s her name is just evil for the sake of it. It makes the narrative flat and uncompelling. Apologies if this makes no sense, I’m a 17 year old whose worst subject is English lol.
@@scrumptious_human yeah the author of Tampa doesn’t have sympathy for her main character. Both books are disturbing but Lolita more so in my opinion….anyways you make an interesting point.
@@kayligooh I think Lolita is INCREDIBLY disturbing and a hard read, I’ve had to put it down multiple times. I just think Lolita is a much more compelling story, I think you can write a compelling character whilst also having no sympathy for them.
After you started describing the plot of the book, I decided I shouldn’t watch this, but I did read her other book “made for love” after watching the sanitized HBO TV adaptation. Unfortunately, the book has a large portion about bestiality with dolphins I had to skip and I vividly remember a page of the book discussing how a man wished all women were large sentient breasts that would be filled and maintained by gas pumps filled with silicone. He also made sure to mention the hole you pump the silicone into would be used constantly by men for… other purposes. I don’t even think I ended up being able to finish it.
I read this book a while ago and it kinda falls into this mental category I've been building of books that seem to set out to say something along the lines of "women can be complete monsters, too" that all fail in one way or another to actually say anything interesting or insightful beyond this. I read it around the same time as Boy Parts, and both novels fall into this category for me; they both center monstrous women, and both women are portrayed as though the most shocking factor of their entire existence is their sex. I find the idea of weaponized / toxic femininity compelling, particularly in the context of women using their societal perceptions of being weak or harmless to their advantage, so the idea of both novels was interesting to me in this context. Tampa does a better job between the two of actually addressing the ways that Celeste is able to wield her status to her advantage, though as you've outlined, I find the actual world around her to be extremely flat and lifeless. I agree with the fact that she is married and her husband being a cop and from an affluent family bizarre, considering it never actually adds anything to the plot or even factored in as a point of drama or tension, iirc. Being told for the millionth time that Celeste is a total monster gets tiresome as well, particularly as it is cushioned between lavish explorations of her lurid fantasies of molesting young boys. And I guess that's the crux of it; Alissa Nutting is clearly depicting Celeste as evil, but still inserting graphic depictions of CSA in her work. I think the fact that she was able to get this book published at all is perhaps the most salient testament to what I can only assume is the main point of the novel, that an adult woman assaulting a young boy is not seen as an equivalent evil to an adult man assaulting a young girl- but I really don't think that justifies the way she's approached this topic. Furthermore, I'd argue that anyone who needs to be convinced of the idea that these are equivalently evil actions would NOT be persuaded by this novel in the slightest. I think the author makes her points much more clearly with Celeste's internal monologue about how readily she will discard Jack the second he enters puberty, rather than any of the scenes of assault. (Indeed, the fact that these scenes are written almost indistinguishably from non-taboo erotica is pretty upsetting, and I think less focus could've been drawn to the sex itself, and more to the emotional aftermath for her victims.) The one quote I remember most vividly was when she compared young men to seafood, something to be consumed as quickly and freshly as possible, and this and similar personal musings stuck with me much better than any of the actual sexual content itself. I enjoyed your overview of this book, and wish the novel itself had been better executed.
It's so exhausting how often books that tackle heavy traumatic topics are written with such little regard or deeper introspection. And always with the most mind numbing prose imaginable. The "Dark" genre (if you even want to call it that) is so bloated with works like this. They all sound like they could be written by the same person half the time.
"Do you think you can mix eroticism or erotica with social commentary and satire when it comes to child SA?" Yes. As a survivor of my foster sister's sexual abuse, struggling with flight or fight or freeze PTSD since I was only 5, I explored those themes...in private rape fantasy roleplay, with a woman and fellow survivor who earned my trust step by patient step. Because I also had to overcome the religious abuse from my father, who taught me that just going through puberty would damn me to Hell. She wasn't the first to try to help through sex positive femdom kink. Just the first who didn't attempt a speedrun. Sarcasm and a larger social context to place all this gender flipped Victorian upbringing helped. So did graphic splatter punk detail. A lot. If we weren't both free to laugh in the faces of horror, or de-sensitize ourselves to the trauma of intrusive thoughts? Especially when we constantly turned each other on anyways? It helped me develop boundaries. And learn to voice what I wanted in real life vs. just feared possibly wanting vs. thrills and chills escapism. Especially after another ex raped me by force just to prove she could. In Tampa's defense, I think it did a lot to prove a woman could exploit the system to manipulate people (like readers, critics, publishers) through a pornographic power fantasy. It was a dirty nuke of a book. And it intentionally exhausts the reader. Anyone who wants to defend the main character has almost nothing to use. And I recognize the main character's creative fantasy life as way too authentic. So many women I've known, both saint and serial offender (most somewhere between), get off to very, very similar impossible horror fantasy. In private. So, to me, all this just helped establish a fossil record of a type of fiction intended to be very hidden and very disposable. Even this video is part of why the conversation it creates isn't without value. Even if cold financial calculations cheapened the act. And I don't intend to ever read it.
'Even this video is part of why the conversation it creates isn't without value.' I think this sums it up best. As bad as the writing is claimed to be, the fact we're all here on this video to hear about it means there's something about it that at the very least interests people. I don't think it's particularly surprising something like this got published since controversy alone is enough to sell a book. Personally I don't really like over-the-top graphic stories like this, and after listening to the audiobook for The Girl Next Door I prefer to just listen to the summaries of disturbing books, because that particular book really horrified me so much. But I think this was mostly because of how much of it felt grounded, real, and based on a true story- other stories don't have that effect on me because they're so blatently fictional. So as for the summary of this book, it... oddly didn't seem that bad? Mostly because of how utterly, ridiculously over-the-top it is, to the point where it almost seemed like absurdist fiction. I definitely agree it isn't satire, but most people (myself included) have never heard of splatterpunk, so I understand why the genre name wasn't used for marketing. It may be bad writing to have her never facing any real conflict and consequences, but that definitely seemed intentional- the focus wasn't on narrative stakes, it was on cramming as much disgusting behaviour into a single book as possible, and I think the reviewer expected something that the writer wasn't interested in doing. Stories aren't problems to be solved, formulas to be followed to always reach the 'correct' outcome, and I think the objective of this book was to merely be as shocking as possible. Finally, I'm very sorry to hear what you've been through, and I do think you're correct that there are many women out there who, although perhaps not as absurdly extreme as in this book, do share a similar mindset. I've seen cases of women who have become teachers just to get to children, and the most sickening part to me is how people react to it. I remember an old overweight woman got caught molesting young children and the comments were sickened and furious at her; meanwhile a young attractive woman who became a karate instructor and preyed on an underage boy had commenters cheering for the 'lucky boy' and complimenting her beauty. That case has always stuck in my mind, especially the text messages where the woman is trying to seduce him while the kid is just replying about how much he likes Fortnite- it was a completely black and white case where the kid had no interest in her what-so-ever, but people in the comments section still didn't see her as the disgusting predator she was.
Have you read Boytoy? Its sort of a similar premise but from the boy's perspective, he retrospects about his grooming when he learns about his teacher getting out of prison soon. It shows his trauma and how it affects him currently, his fear and paranoia of running into her, and his story is shown through trauma flashbacks.
Currently working my way through Lolita. Tampa is next. You posed some really interesting questions in this video. I've added them to our list of things to talk about when we do the stream. I can't wait to talk about this with you, Ian!
I hope I can catch you guys live. This sounds like a good discussion. Personally, i wouldn't make it far into Tampa. I doubt my favorite ceramic artist would even burn it for a batch of pots. There's 'not for me', and ' oh Hell No.'
I haven't read Tampa, (or seen all this video yet), but I did read Nutting's surreal short story collection "unclean jobs" when it came out a decade ago, and I also read some of the articles she had posted in the media about her self described severe anxiety. I intended to read Tampa, as I found a lot of "unclean jobs" powerful and interesting, but just never got round to it. I did read some interviews with Nutting at the time, where she said there had been some cases in the news around that time of female teachers molesting students, and someone she once knew had been involved in a such a case, and she wanted to understand. I also remember her saying she found writing and researching the book a harrowing experience that she needed to "come up to air" from. Anyway...based on my experience of her so far, I trust Nutting. I don't believe she's pro abuse or someone who would romanticize abuse. Having said that, I obv haven't read Tampa yet.
I don't really have a problem with the book because I don't think there's any amount of flowery language that can make me think this stuff is good. It's disgusting but so is horror. What makes me dislike this is the author's intent to dehumanize the protag. Humanizing doesn't mean liking, respecting, or defending it just means acknowledging that they're a person. Like the presenter notes, the hatred of aging is pervasive in our culture and isn't just a problem when it's used to justify the predation of children. Stuff like this sets up an easy moral Target that just ends up ignoring the harder to identify ones
i seriously agree. Its such a copout for actually writing an intricate and realistic feeling character under the guise of “not making her sympathetic”, when most people would never excuse a character like the mc anyways even if she did have a sad and Tragique backstory. it eliminates any depth and avoids actually resonating at all or getting into legit commentary cuz all the protag is is just an exaggerated horror monster its hard for this to be believable or real when it doesn’t confront the harsh reality that predators are horrible people yes, but that they still are people whether we like it or not. even the worst humans are super complex, and acknowledging that will help us more to protect children and get to root of why these things happen
@@heav2582 well, i appreciate the genuine response! in my experience, abusers tend to be simplistic/ stupid, and always less introspective than other's think. so i find Tampa more realistic in a sense, but it def makes for a more tedious, boring story. i forgot most everything about this book except for the ending because tbh it was monotonous
Wow this is the first video of yours I've seen and I'm already very impressed by your obvious dedication to RUclips and creating quality content :) Anyway the book cover was so familiar but no wonder why I never actually bought it lol
It is truly rare that I have to skip through a video as much as I have with this one. The fact that Harper Collins didn’t shut this down is disgusting. Like my body ain’t doin so great these days anyway, but Jesus the fact that she narrowed in on a shy boy made me legit nauseous, I teared up. I have no idea how you got through this, truly, but I’m glad to see opposition to it, at least. People oughta know how nasty this is. I’m not sure if I just missed it (I haven’t finished scrubbing the video yet), but I wanted to hear the critique of books like this (like Lolita etc) that you mentioned. I’ll keep scrubbing and listening around, but if you could potentially put a time stamp for those sections in the future? I did really try to hang in through the reading part, and normally I’m very good about compartmentalizing, but this book has impressed me in the worst possible way. You’d think, as a legal analyst who deals with people like this in real life I’d be made of sterner stuff, but I’m just not. It’s made me feel more sick than my autoimmune disorder has ever managed haha. Also it somehow made me feel bad for a cop, which should be illegal. (If he does something terrible in the parts I’m skipping, then empathy rescinded).
Hey! The comparison and discussion on the collection of books like this will be in a separate video/stream entirely that I'll be doing with @efi reads books some time during the summer. We don't have a date yet, but you won't find that in this video. And for peace of mind, the husband never does anything wrong. He finds out his wife was raping kids when she's arrested, he asks her why, she doesn't answer, and he leaves and never comes back.
this was published bc of the shock value. i refuse to believe anything else. i think that the line gets blurry in self publishing over what is too obscene, but there is indisputably a line in traditional publishing and it normally isn’t this.
I want to address the point you made near the end of the video about reaching the people who need to hear the message that Tampa is trying to put across to the reader. Alissa Nutting would not be trying to reach the people who already think that the molestation of children is an issue; those people would not even read a book like Tampa because they already know and understand that child molestation and sexual assault are bad things. It's pretty obvious to me that this book is addressed at people who *don't* think those are bad things, which is a lot of people. Men in particular have spoken about how they don't think male students being abused by female teachers is a bad thing, and there are women who believe the same thing. This is an obvious issue that Alissa herself would have encountered, likely even in her own private life being that she found out she knew a female predator. And to that end, I think the way Tampa is structured is important. These are people who already eroticize these encounters, and that eroticization is put into the context of all the horrible, nasty shit that Celeste does and says to get into the position of power she needs to exploit the relationship she builds with the boys she abuses. She doesn't abuse them right out of the gate; you spend pages upon pages in her mind, listening to her thoughts, watching her plan like the predator she is, and it's horrifying in that respect. This is a woman who knows she's young and beautiful, who knows she's likely to get away with it because of how the world works, taking only the precautions she thinks she needs to take. And having that knowledge, especially when we live in a world where female teachers get away with abusing male students often, is terrifying. I think people are inclined to believe that being willing to depict something to the extreme that Alissa Nutting did says something about her, but to me, in the full context of the book, it just doesn't. The book is pretty good proof on its own that she knows Celeste is a horrible person and that her actions are meant to be disgusting. I actually think that's why the language works so well; it's florid and purple because it stands as a constrast to the absolute atrocity that is Celeste's mindset. The criticism of the book I think is the most fair is that Celeste is just such a monster that she almost seems unbelievable, but I think that's likely colored by Alissa having known an IRL predator and also because she really wants to get across that this is monstrous behavior. If your message is depicted at people who think abuse of minor boys is totally fine, even something to be sexually desired, maybe your instinct as a writer would be to depict her as awfully as possible in order to make it impossible for people to drum up even a shred of understanding or sympathy. Also, as someone who reads actual splatterpunk, I don't know that i consider Tampa to be on that level. The actual characterization of Celeste put into context with the narrative and her actions leads me to believe that Alissa does understand precisely how awful and nasty this type of person is, whereas with a lot of splatterpunk, it often seems like maybe that's not true. One-handed writing on the part of the authors, if you catch my drift.
yeah. Nutting has a family and I read her interviews at the time saying she wanted to understand the female abuser as someone she once knew was involved in such a case. I haven't read Tampa, but this all sounds like BS. I think it's a generation clash - of the previous generation (IE mine and Nutting's age) where we tried to "understand" bad people, and the modern twitter/tumblr generation where all content is either morally "bad" or "good".
from wiki - "Nutting was inspired by Debra Lafave, a teacher charged with having sex with her under-age students in 2005. Nutting went to high school with Lafave; seeing someone she knew on the news raised her awareness of the issue of female predators. When asked if it was difficult to come in and out of perspective with a deranged character Nutting replied: "It was like going under anaesthesia-once I was inside it, I felt like I had to make the most of it because it was so difficult to go in and out. I ended up writing in really marathon sessions, 7-8 hours at a time. After I was done each day I had this hangover feeling- my body felt a grand fatigue even though I’d been seated the whole time. It took me a while to become verbal again after writing."
Ah yes, the tried and true test of one’s morality: if she has a family she couldn’t possibly be a sexual deviant. Not to mention, she literally said words to the contrary! Plus, we all know that anyone who claims they are “bringing awareness” by creating pedo smut for the YA crowd, couldn’t possibly be….. gasp…..lying to get a pass for this abomination!
Omg so glad other people thought the same I was livid after i read the book and talked ab it on fable but everyone there was clocking me and liked it😭😭😭
I'm new to the channel and knew nothing about this book and I was NOT ready to hear the premise. I'm at 1:40 and already shocked out of my chair. I need to pack a bowl for this video😭
... my oldest is 14. I can't imagine being romantically and/or sexually attracted to boys that age 😱 Heck, I'm 39 and can't imagine being attracted to anyone under 30 anymore!
my problem was that this book (yes I read it) wanted to be Lolita but the author wasn't a very good writer. A very boring and somewhat nonsensical book despite the extremely provocative subject matter. I have nothing against creating art about abuse of minors btw. it's very valuable to talk about such thing even when the depiction is kind of messy. Of course it's taboo and disgusting but I wasn't really that offended by it because the description of the abuse was so uninteresting and mechanical. I don't get all this moralising language around writing sexual scenes that are clearly supposed to be gross. you end up saying nothing in the end. like everyone thinks that grooming children is bad but how people go about it in practice reveals what they actually believe. I think it's much more important to talk about HOW SA of minors works and gets enabled than just go "p*do bad!" There is actually this old anime called Door to the summer that's about an older countess taking a young boy as her "lover" I think it depicted the pain of the boy really well when he realised that the countess only wanted to use him.
I’m a survivor of Female on male child sex abuse and I thought about reading this book because I liked the plot description on Wikipedia and I liked the idea of showing the POV of an attractive female predator. I especially liked the idea of showing the female predator’s sex fantasies about under aged boys because it shares that even if a predator is an attractive woman, she’s still a disgusting pedophile just like any male predator. But it sounds the author just wanted Too far and just wanted to create something shocking rather than something that truly provides insight. As a survivor, my gold standard for a piece of media that actually shows the mind of a female predator is the film may December. It really showed how shallow, abusive and childish a woman who would trap a child into a relationship by getting pregnant from her abuse of him is. I especially loved how they showed damaging it could be to a victim of grooming .
to add to your list if you wanted to cover it - Ian McEwan (author of Atonement) recently released novel "Lessons" is about female teacher on boy abuse.
@@KirkpattieCake I really enjoyed "lessons", It's got some bad reviews and is a bit long, but I was into it from start to finish. The abuse is only about one third or so of the novel though. It happens in the 1960s too, between a boy 11-16 and his troubled female music teacher. -- when I read "lessons" I remember thinking there were 3 novels on the theme ...Tampa, Lessons and another, but now I'm blanking on what I thought the 3rd was
i fail to see how this is in any way remotely trying to shine a light or correctly demonize female predators, when it's so insanely vile, graphic and so poorly written in a way that makes the villain always win, that it makes infamous furry cub porn comics almost seem tame in comparison
The only splatterPunk I’ve read was “Playground” and that book messed me up a bit ngl. This book is just sad, it just proves, that women are Capable of horrible crimes, and acts just as much as anyone
I think there could be erotica that is satirical or say something on social issues, but this definitely is NOT how it would be done. It would be more satirical if the character with her delusions of grandeur was shown to the audience to be unreliable and pathetic or something. A character who wants to hurt others but has the world conveniently bend and warp to her will isn't really saying anything, at least not how it's presented here.
I couldn't put this sort of thing in my brain, I just can't imagine suffering through all of this. It's in a weird way comforting that basically not matter *what* I write it'll never be as deranged as this.
My personal opinion to your final question: This book is technically against some interpretations of federal seepee laws (I actually disagree with text only material being jurisdiction of aforementioned regulations and this is not meant to lead to me claiming this book is breaking the law just existing). I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that a publisher picked this up, but I think they should be legally allowed to. If I were a publisher I would see such an egregious set of vignettes depicting absurd levels of just s3x without educational or social value and reject it. There is no commentary it’s just tab-rotica better left for the n-i-f-t-i-e-s of the internet.
I tried reading this book years ago, got to the point where the dad died and just couldn't finish it. Thank you for your service, now I can die knowing the book continues to be pointless.
It really confuses me how some books get published while many amazing books take decades or sometimes never get picked up by a publisher. I just don’t get it. Also, The Art of Racing in The Rain is a great book, but only has one case of… impropriety between a minor and an adult and is handled well, that is if I’m remembering it correctly.
Omigoodness I read this book so long ago. I thought that the author really didn’t know how to execute the message she was trying to convey. (One star rating from me.) But I’ve been thinking about this book and off for years, basically every time a case like this comes up and I’m so excited that you’re going to be talking about it so I can hear another perspective!
Thank god everyone felt the same way about this book. I only read about a third before I couldn’t do it anymore. Im not an avid reader so I had gaslit myself into thinking I just didn’t get it 😭
The way this book is trying so hard to be Lolita without understanding what made Lolita work. Humbertx2 exists has he does in the narrative to show how predators justify their actions, the ways they act, and how they get away with it. It's impactful because of how realistic it is. This book isn't realistic at all. This isn't how you can imagine a real person acting, and this isn't how predators actually operate. The author of Lolita was an alleged victim pulling from his own experiences with his uncle, and perhaps that's why it actually managed to say something, where as this novel you're talking about now is just shocking to be shocking as you said.
Alissa Nutting's novel was published in 2013 and yet it seems as if it has only been noticed by RUclipsrs the past few months. That's interesting. I think "Tampa" is a searing character study, a fast-paced narrative written with clarity by an author with a sure hand with description and technique. Is it disturbing? Yeah. The subject matter makes that very clear. Are the characters memorable and the story captivating? I think so. The narrator is a woman who is completely devoid of sympathy (the female Patrick Bateman) and a teacher to boot. All of that is a real problem for many readers. As is its extremely graphic and descriptive writing. It I also extremely rare and very intriguing. I think "Tampa" is a book to be read and talked about. To be argued over and it will offend some readers and exhilarate others. That makes it a success.
She is not the female Patrick Bateman lmao. That is a gross insult to Bret Easton Ellis. There is so much more going on in American Psycho and it doesn't rely on graphic descriptions every second of the day. It actually establishes Patrick with relationships (or lack thereof) in yuppie culture. This doesn't even try and relies on the trope of women writing nonstop sexual, over the top descriptions and then calling it liberation. There's no plot, there's no setting, there's no arch, there's no point. If you want to say this book has value, then I wish you'd do it on its own merit, not by comparing it to a book it has nothing in common with.
@@KirkpattieCake When I read 'Tampa" a few years ago by the time I got ten pages in I was thinking of "American Psycho". Not in the specifics. But in the general detached style of the first person narrative. Also, I feel this is a much better novel than "American Psycho" for a number of reasons obvious to anyone who has read both, but consider; there really aren't any serial killers like Patrick Bateman. Not really. Bateman is an exaggerated portrait of real-world horrors which are presented though a narrative defined by pretentious attempts to attack 'consumerism' and Yuppie Culture. There ARE however teachers who will sexually assault students. Nutting with her novel just gives it straight, a story of a complete sociopath who cares not a bit for the other lives she destroys but will stop at nothing to satisfy her own perverse desires.
lol, I find it interesting you'll say an exaggeration like Celeste is accurate after the author said she went out of her way to try to dehumanize the character so much to the point she's not real, but take issue with Patrick. Still disagree, but doesn't matter, we see things differently and that's all there is to it, but the books are not the same at all.
@@KirkpattieCake I don't take issue with the character of Patrick Bateman... if he is a character, I would argue he is more of a cipher from which Ellis' observations about 80's consumerism culture is filtered through. Ellis' novel is an exercise in style and shock value and while Nutting certainly goes for some shocking scenes, in the character of Jack we get some real humanity and a way to see and feel the destruction that is caused by sociopathic people like Celeste. There are no real Patrick Bateman's in the real world. He is an author's creation. But Celeste? Despite what Nutting says, in making her not real, in my opinion there are MANY people like her out there.
Wow, I thought the Table-Kun scene from Code Geass was bad! Nina Einstein violating the table in the student council room is _NOTHING_ compared to what this monster did to the desks in her classroom!
I clicked on this video to listen to it while doing something else, and whatever it was that Alissa published despite the great flow of the video to explain what it was. Has all literally just been censored by my own brain and I'm too scared to replay the whole thing to take it all in and understand it, great video though, I just wow.
i (think) i was groomed when i was 11/12 by a 15yo (i don’t know if that’s how it works and if not i sincerely apologize) and i told some friends when i was 13/14 and they CONGRATULATED me. they say “awh yeah that’s cool” and gave me high fives.
I’ve been looking for a review for this book for MONTHS! A friend convinced me to read it and I have no freaking idea what to think EDIT: your review and this video is AWESOME. Subscribed!!
0:07 I know, I know. 😂 I remember hearing about this book when it came out but I wasn't interested in the story. But I remember Nutting got inspired because a former classmate of her's was in trial for performing the R on a minor.
28:49 questioning those life choices eh Ian 😂 If I were her husband and it was police one time miss me with that "knows more than he lets on but does nothing" Who was it made for? I'd wager pretentious people who want to say they read "satire" and lecture the plebs about how they're "missing the point". You know me Ian, I'm a wannabe edgelord and even I found this disturbing though I did see someone call it a "sexy little novel" so it's made for that person I guess.
This is eerily similar to the Cuties situation. I believe it was a French film focused on a group of girls who wanted to be dancers and were basically sexualized and put into deeply inappropriate situations throughout the film with no real repercussions for their or others actions in the end. The creators claim that it was to expose the predation on and sexualization of young girls in the entertainment industry but in doing so they basically made a softcore CP film. This sounds to be a similar situation where it is hard to believe the intent with how graphic and "titillating" it is to a very specific audience that the creators claim to find reprehensible. You have to be a phenomenal storyteller to tackle subject matter like this. There are definitely ways to do it that get your point across in a manner that doesn't end up creating the kind of thing you're supposed to be criticizing. I do think there are things that do not need to be depicted in media and can be eluded to or explained in a more clinical way without subtracting from the point. I've been called puritanical and a prude for that take, but it's how I see the topic. At a point, the description is no longer just a description, but rather the author and target readers reveling in the act, living it, and getting some deeper satisfaction from it. Not every character, action, or plotpoint is a reflection of the author as a person and a great writer will be able to write incredibly diverse and varied stories and characters; but when something is repeated so heavily, enforced so much, and in the end, endorsed by the story...
Hi--Just found your channel, and enjoyed your commentary! Also just finished this book today, having been steered toward it by buzz about its being a "disturbing" book. It succeeds in being disturbing for sure. However, erotic romance being one of the genres I write in, I DID NOT find this book qualifying as "erotic literature" or "titillating" in any way. This was a nightmarish, surreal journey into an evil mind--I found it very chilling. Celeste is indeed a demonic character--she has no "love" for anyone--not in the least--a total narcissist, concerned solely with satisfying her own perverse desires--the vibe was more like she got off on the thrill of defilement, spoilage and destruction. She plots, stalks, and fantasizes about the deaths of her prey; she fears death--terrified of it, in fact. She's addicted to skin care, plastic surgery, and is totally aware of the evil, criminal nature of her actions. She takes measures to conceal her liaisons with Jack, including allowing his father to die rather than call 911--she looks him in the eye while he dies. Celeste Price is one of the most evil criminals I've ever come across in many years of reading fiction. She effectively used her beauty and the high-priced legal counsel she enjoyed (puzzlingly provided by Ford's family) to score a probationary sentence. And the book concludes with her living in squalid conditions, yet still plotting conquests of adolescent males. A very sickening, emetic vision. The writing left much to be desired, to be sure. Yet the character's evil, amorality, and obsession with plumbing even more obscene depths of depravity and crime are effectively conveyed--she's 1000% satanic. Good point, too about her "black magic" practices--like the inscription of the names on the desks in fluids--straight out of contemporary occult practices there. Anyway, a great evaluation, a challenging book, and I'm a new subscriber!
I am so happy the algorithm threw you at me. Granted, this being my first video of yours is a bit like baptism by fire haha, but i love your commentary and your well thought out suggestions to how the author could strengthen the narrative. I also reall appreciate your "men writing women" rant because i truly agree that it is ridiculous for people to complain about that when there are thousands, maybe even millions of examples of women writing women AND men terribly. Especially in the smut genre. Like you say, some people just dont write people well. Men or women, it doesnt matter. Some writers just arent good at writing.
i'm writing this before watching the full video, but i also just finished 'Tampa' recently. first, the cover might be the most effective cover i've seen. it's beautiful, and it just fits the book so well. i separate sexuality into erotic, desire, and pornography. i would describe this book as purely pornographic, nothing else. which i would define pornography as something only meant to be experienced, and the experience is intended to be sexually pleasurable to some. i liked Nutting's idea with this book, and her writing style is delicate in it's brutality. it's like Peter Sotos, but more tasteful. the main character (which i forgot who's it's based on. i also learned of the women when looking up reviews, but i just didn't think it was so important to the actual book.) is so great imo! like a Judge Holden-esque evil. there's literally nothing to her aside from sex. so focused on her addiction to sex and taboo, just trying to recapture the joy of her first fix. she builds her whole life on one vice. like Celeste makes so much more sense when you know she just wants to sexually abuse boys. you mention how she targets boys who don't initially want to have sex with her because of control. which, i would agree, but i think predators don't really care about the psychology of the actions. they just know shame and remorse make it harder to speak up after they abuse them. that's kinda why i think the book is so effective in what Nutting is attempting to convey (personally i gave it a 6.3/10 or 3 stars). Celeste just skates by because everyone else around her sees a needy woman, not a vicious predator. they see past her lack of humanity. enamored by her aesthetics and thin veneer of compassion, they seek to help her. minimizing her autonomy just because she is pretty. i rated the book as mid because, i haven't read 'Lolita' admittedly, this just sounds like a gender-swapped and more raunchy version of 'Lolita'. swap Humbert's ornate language and pedagogical pedigree with Celeste's looks and pedagogical occupation, and i feel like it's basically the same message. people focus too much on understanding the predator's mind, they forget the suffering predators inflict on to others. they forget about the victims. i will say the court scene was phenomenal in that regard. when the boy was testifying and, due to his nativity, expressing sympathy for Celeste, my heart was breaking. to be forced to mature at the hand's of a monster is terrible. meanwhile Celeste can cause so much destruction, but because her aesthetics and gender equate to more inherent worth in our patriarchal society where we view men as perpetually horny, sexual aggressors, she skates through life without any real consequence. she is onto enjoying the views, in more ways than one, and to never maturing past when she was 14. i think it paints the cycle of CSA pretty well. i do think pedophilia is a sexuality in a sense, not one i think deserves any sympathy just to make it clear because ik just saying the wrong thing immediately makes a person a child abuser to some (but if you don't care about lying, you can always just say vague nice, things and hunt under the camouflage of polite society. which is what predators do.). to a good percentage of child sex abusers, it's strictly about hurting and abusing children because they are easy, pure targets. children are ignorant to their abilities, and amount of control. children see adults as authority figures, and child sex abusers see them as pornographic toys. this is also why i hate the terms 'child pornography'. that term just accentuates the artificiality of taboo, and minimizes the harm these acts spread into all factors of the child's life. it's abuse, honestly the worst, most devastating kind of abuse any adult can do to a kid outside murder. abusers like that love when others try to help and heal them of their corruption because then it moves their culpability onto other, more metaphysical aspects, and away from their autonomy. that's also why the hate the truth. they like opaqueness, and illusions of depth. i think Celeste is a good personification of how we glorify evil. readers completely ignore what women say to live in a philosophic, humanist fantasy land where no one can *truly* be evil and even a monster is worth redeeming if they are pretty. often the excuse of 'well there MUST be reason!' is used to search past the real reason abusers do it for, which is self-gratification. Nutting is so smart in using Celeste! Celeste makes absolutely zero growth, change, or progress throughput the story. so ofc people ignore her simplistic sexual motivation, and try to see the depth because women are dumb? i truly don't get why people want to see any redeeming value in Celeste, or why folks want to learn anything from her besides maybe idk being a better abuser? the characters around her are forced to grow and change because Celeste wants to be 14 again and experiences that initial taboo-induced pleasure of sex. it's unfortunately every one else who will not only have to suffer for her purely destructive wants, but they have to find excuses for her because her simplistic desire for cumming seems so out of proportion with the destruction she leaves in her wake. that's why she's the bad guy, cause CSA literally only hurts innocent kids for years to follow, sometimes their whole life, just so one evil pervert can orgasm harder than usual. e: also i think it's very childish of people to mock Nutting's name. yes, 'nut' is also slang for men ejaculating/ men's ejaculate. it's not that funny. i feel like there are better times to laugh at sexual wordplay other than when discussing CSA. it's a serious issue, some victims might find it offensive when other's try to find the humor in traumatic memories. like myself, i do find it offensive. 36:00 is perfect representation of my this point actually.
Kinda weird how her name is Nutting since that’s probably what she was doing the entire time she was writing this. Sounds like that’s all her character did.
Looking for the next 50 shades of grey. That's why they published it. 50 shades is a terrible book. Very badly written (and I've never read it, just seen reviews with excerpts). But it made money. It's all about the money.
@@YTEdy Nutting came on the scene as an alternative/surreal/bizzaro author with a strong feminist slant. She was given a bigger deal to write a serious look at female molesters. Obviously the authors and publishers wanted to sell books, but "50 shades" is fun (if very problematic) entertainment with a wide appeal. Tampa was always supposed to be a difficult and challenging "lit" novel about female abuse. This was never meant to be wide-appeal fun like "50 Shades". So no, while the novel was promoted and HC did want to sell copies to lit/crime readers, (and it has a more commercial "mystery novel" cover here in the UK), this was never meant to be blockbuster mass entertainment.
@@mutate34 Solid points. Interesting too. I didn't get the impression that you suggest, listening to this video. The excerpts from the book she read did seem over-sexualized, unnecessarily so. KirkPattieCake sounds very critical of this book and listening to the excerpts, I'd describe it as more smutty than challenging or eye opening on the subject of female predators, but that's just my impression of the bits I've heard. But, I still like your argument. Worth considering.
@@YTEdy thanks. I haven't actually read Tampa. When it came out I thought it sounded too disturbing for me. I did used to like Nutting's stuff though. Interestingly another huge (here in the UK) author has just released a novel about female teacher on boy abuse - Ian McEwan's "Lessons". (which I have read, and while being from the victim's POV, is strangely sympathetic to the abuser).
This is a lesson in how sometimes thought experiments don't need to be brought into the real world. Or this could have been a short story and served the same odd purpose.
Just to note, an adult “having sex” with a child is just rape. Children cannot consent
Sadly, the law does not agree, at least in the context of a male victim and a female perpetrator.
I scrolled down and saw this the second I opened the video. I am scared for what I am about to watch.
Yep.
The age of consent of countries varies.
Not a moral statement. That's just how it is. Here It's 15.
@adrianaslund8605 The book is set in the United States. AOC there is 18. In most places in the world, it is no lower than 16. The events in this book are child rape.
this book is what people who’ve never read lolita think lolita is about
FR
Yep.
There sure are plenty of people who has seen the Kubrick movie and /or have readed original story, and still think this way.
@@joukokulhelm6844 that movie was gross
@@Pastellera2video hard movie to watch fore sure.... i stil think it has it place in cimenas greatest movies. gross for sure, and kinda slimy and sly at the same time. it exposes what people think about taboo subjects. And suprisingly many miss the point entirely. people are fucked up, i think.
Arrives, utterly fails to emulate American Psycho, refuses to elaborate, leaves.
That’s so real honestly
Patrick Bateman, to me, was a character I could laugh at, could cringe at. He’s so dull, so utterly consumed with the dumbest things. So many dumbdumbs equate the character (and people with anti-social behavior) as unusually intelligent, when that’s actually rarely the case. They may appear so because they see things the general public doesn’t see, they manipulate in ways the average human cannot imagine and they do it effortlessly. But, they are dumb. At their core, they’re not truly intelligent.
I went on a weird tangent. Sorry🤣
Thiiiiss.
If the author truly wanted to bring attention to the double standard of female-on-male rape, especially in the context of older women and younger boys and teacher/student rape, she should have written the story from the POV of THE CHILD.
Or ...she can write what she wants in an attempt to understand the abuser's mind
@@juststatedtheobvious9633 I haven't read Tampa, but Nutting's previous work was surreal/bizzaro stories with a feminist slant. Her "aimed audience" are feminists.
Trying this again....
How do you show his incredibly immature perspective without writing dark erotic fantasy for those who won't care what happens beyond that point?
Asking as a survivor who had bad experiences with the exact kind of audience that book is targeting.
Look at how often "but they enjoyed it" and "they don't act like my idea of how a victim should behave" is used to discredit our stories as it is?
@mutate34 Don't be that guy
@@Stettafire this author is being slandered here. It's not a YA romance. Its a literary novel for adults from ten years ago. It was written to attempt to understand female molesters because the author discovered she knew one in real life. The author WASN'T trying to "bring attention to the double standard" she was trying to understand her former colleague's actions.
I related to My Dark Vanessa and how realistic it is regarding what it is to be groomed and how extremely hard it is on victim to see through how wrong the situation is.
Because it was through the victim’s POV, I got through it and it’s in my top 10 books of all time, but I 100% understand where people who do not have SA or trauma backgrounds would be confused on the things that happen in My Dark Vanessa and how accurate it is re: victim actions and mental/emotional unhinged state that is very hard to first see, and then crawl out of and get better.
I found MDV really powerful. I used to be a fan of Nutting's writing too (though i never got round to reading "tampa").
alyssa NUTTING. *side eyes name*
This review is gonna be wild.
Damn you beat me to this joke!
Channelling your inner 14 year old
@@TheGone-bj1bf oh no... stay away from the woman in the story
@@HyperpopDiamond I know she a pretty accurate depiction of a malignant narcissist
she used to write articles about anxiety and mental health for blogs and there were tons of incel men making fun of her name then (nutting is nuts lol!) etc
I got "sex sex sex sex sex someone walks in, sex sex sex sex sex sex someone walks in" stuck in my head now. It's like a song.
"...spam spam spam egg and spam; spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam spam..."
average system of a down song
Reminds me of a song from marina and the diamonds
@@voodoovixen666 sex yeah!!
You should make a song of this and call it “The Tampa Remix (Nutting’s Version)”. I had “Nutter’s Version” first.
Fun fact: I read this in high school out of morbid curiosity and I had to put a piece of tape over the cover just so everyone would shut the FUCK up about it
Was it in your high school library for all the kids to check out…?
That goddamn cover ...
@@daniellethomas3745Public libraries exist you know.
“I guess in Nutting’s world, men don’t give a shit about CSA”
I read this book and then went to watch videos about LaFave or whatever her name was. UHM. The comment sections were so horrific. Just hundreds on men wishing that they had had hot teachers to groom and abuse them. Men talking about how it’s not abuse when it happens to boys, it’s bragging rights. Men saying that when it happened to them, they didn’t suffer any trauma. Men saying that age of consent is stupid because a 13 year old boy knows what he wants. I thought maybe society had grown some in the past decade but apparently a huge population of men would rather put a stamp of approval on women abusing boys.
They don't see that porn addiction, lack of empathy in their relationships, sexual sadism, various fetishes, depression, anxiety, sex obsession, and disconnectedness with society are connected to prior sexual abuse. The lack of defense we have had towards young boys and protecting their sexuality is having a down stream effect on our society. Keep ringing that bell every time you see it.
PS: personally not here to debate the permissibility of any of the above. I've been through it and I'd give it all 0/10. If you think relationships between men and women have improved thanks to Internet porn, teenage sex, casual sex, and the popularity of S&M, let's just call it a push and not get into it.
Often they feel the same way about men abusing girls, but they know not to say it out loud.
I had a conversation with a male friend about the time a grown woman "seduced" him when he was 13. 40 years later and he still felt shame about it.
literally terrifying, their minds are so rotted that they dont even realize the kind of suffering any type of those wish fulfillment's would bring, generations of boys growing up to think this is something worth bragging over is just sad
It can, and will, leave a mark on the 13 year old boy that he will bear for life, whether they want to admit it or not. There might be those who have issues later in life and not recognize the root of that evil, but that obviously doesn't mean there was no damage done. It leaves a scar regardless of what those men may say. It leaves a scar even if they're too dense to see it. From experience, I'm forever caught between forgiveness and the damage done.
i feel like a lot of books that end up getting compared to lolita kind of forget the fact that there *is* no erotic content in nabokovs book. the whole point of lolita was to write an obscene story that had no curse words in it, to point out the absurdity of what was considered obscene at the time. curse words are a no go, but a whole book about a child being molested? well, guess that's fine, because there's no cursing 🤷🏼♂️
that's honestly a big part of why tampa didn't work for me, personally. as a satire, as an unreliable narrator, as pointing out the double standards... it just didn't work in many ways.
4:12 "Do you think you can mix eroticism or erotica with social commentary and satire when it comes to child SA."
Before we even start the book: As a writer, no I can't.
I doubt anyone could
@@tVt2000 'Lolita' is still considered a classic. (No, I haven't read that one either.)
@@spookyfirst9514 *I doubt anyone could effectively
@@tVt2000though, I do quite enjoy it when someone tries if only because in almost every circumstance I have seen, that person is a closeted weirdo and outs themselves on the spot(vaush moment)
@@spookyfirst9514 Lolita is not erotic though. The book is written in such a way as to repulse you, not to titillate. I can't think of any books that mix erotica and CSA together well.
1:13:04 "I don't want to hear about men writing women ever again, bad writing is just bad writing regardless of sex."
Yes, it is. Fearful nipples are just as bad as breasting boobiliy down the stairs.
The mental image from "breasting boobily down the stairs" is something I wish my brain didn't show me...
The problem is that if you want to use colorful language, you need to have the framing firmly in place. There shouldn't be question as to where the narrator's perspective is. If there's any reasonable chance that it is omniscient perspective and isn't part of a satirical or comedic delivery, it will probably fall flat because the reader will be thinking about the writer's taste when anything remotely cringe drops into the language. If the cringe is meant for a fourth-wall effect or to make you laugh or eyeroll, the reader shouldn't be doubting that the narration has that clear note of imperfection or writer/reader sympathy.
@@laurasalo6160 You're welcome.
@@spookyfirst9514I can see you watch Alizee
Debra Lafave was my daughter's 7th grade reading teacher, and turned out to be a good friend of mine, we hung out all the time.
The boy that she slept with was my daughter's arch enemy. She has a lot of mental problems. Obviously as soon as I found out what was going on I cut ties with her, but before that, she did not seem like this horrible person she was very kind and funny and selfless and apparently screwed up enough in the head she want to start a relationship with a 14 year old.
The day they started recognizing each other that way, they were going to a middle school trip to SeaWorld and my daughter came home in tears, not understanding why Debbie, at that time her name was Mrs. Beasley was sitting next to that kid on the bus and not next to her like usual. Debbie told my daughter that it was because the kid tended to be bad and act up on trips.
It broke her heart.
I'm glad you compared this to splatterpunk at the end because that's exactly what i was thinking the whole time. Had the same vibe as someone sitting hunched over going "teehee this is gunna be so fucked up!" While they type away
I also want to say that despite how gross and appalling the book is... at least it had the decency to fully acknowledge that the narrator is clearly the villain, and doesn't portray children as being responsible for seducing the main character. In the two film adaptations of Lolita, the clear implication is that Lolita is framed as the party responsible for the relationship. In both those movie adaptations, they portrayed Lolita(a child) as some sort of temptress/seductress.
The framing of this narrative actually made me feel sorry and horrible for all the poor kids the narrator seduced. I actually felt kind of sorry for the narrator too, BUT ONLY because they are a person clearly without empathy, without guilt, without remorse, for violating children in the most disgusting way imaginable. The narrator didn't just violate children... they also murdered their own humanity in order to become the monster that they are.
I’ve only seen the Jeremy Irons one but you have gravely misunderstood that film if you think it portrayed Lolita as the instigator. You have to be snappy and perhaps have some awareness of the book and how cleverly it is written but every moment of the film condemns Hubert. I can’t speak for the other film as I haven’t seen it, but I suggest you rethink that interpretation. Part of the problem may be how accessible the film is to people who are too young to understand just how usefully problematic it is.
@@rilasolo113 It literally did. The director himself considered it romantic.
They actively romanticize and try to make the audience complicit in Humbert's hebephilic gaze and make Dolores look older than she actually is, alongside aging her up to 14, which is old for a hebephile.
The movie dresses her in clothes that she didn't wear, and sexual-ized late 1940's children play clothes. This is not seen by Humbert Humbert, because this is not what Humbert is attracted to. Dolores is a tomboy in the book.
He wanted her dresed like a LITTLE girl because that was sexy to him. The 97 movie threw all of that out the window for the sake of sexu-alizing the character in a way that appealed to the gaze of men attracted to (young) adult women so it would be easier to blame her and view her as complicit in her abuse. The movie doesn't show her absolute despair, the beatings, the starvings. It skips over the foreword and the narrative framing device, too.
The costume design in the 97 cherry-picked revealing designs from the late 40s that they could just so get away with in order to sexu***alize Dolores for a modern audience.
If she were dressed to Humbert's gaze she would be dolled up like a young girl from that era. He hated teenage girls. Any indication of Dolly claiming womanhood or anything shaping or showing off her body growing disgusted him.
The designs constantly showing off her stomach or accentuating her breasts or giving the illusion of curves are there so the viewer is keyed to regard her as a sexual object to make her abuse more palatable.
The movie was attempted CSE*M.
The director... chooses a notorious scene from the novel in which Dolores is sitting on Humbert's naked lap, "picking her nose while engrossed in the lighter sections of a newspaper, as indifferent to my ecstasy as if it were something she had sat upon, a shoe, a doll, the handle of a tennis racket, and was too indolent to remove."
He wanted to turn it into a explicit "love*making" scene using a body double to show Humbert **** from Behind, while Dolore's torso "arches in ecstasy", her "face contorted orgas****", when Humbert himself says "Never did she vibrate under my touch." and calls her "Frigid princess", as in frigid, a woman with no interest or enjoyment in se*.
That scene had to be replaced by THE CHI***LD PORNOG****RAPHY PREVENTION ACT OF 1996, as it ruled illegal to not only have a minor engage in "sexu****ally explicit conduct" for a scene, but also to make it appear as if a minor was engaging in such conduct.
You are defending a movie that is softcore CSE**.
Everything else aside, the way Nutting writes really reads like fanfiction
If the book meant to make people uncomfortable with its language alone, I think it succeeded. I get the feeling that the author honestly tried to bring awareness to a problem, but went about it the wrong way. Namely, it focused too much on ‘triggering’ people, rather than bringing up a discussion. One of those ‘rage baiting’ to sell more copies kind of situations. In which case, I guess the book was a success.
I mean, come on, the writer name alone is enough to stir some bad jokes and arguments.
Personally, I'm not one to shy away from spicy books and erotica, or problematic themes, but this book combines two topics that mix about as well as oil and water (glorify sex and sexual liberation and a particular style of horror/psychological exploration of mental derangement). Each one, by itself, could garner an honest audience, but together I struggle to see who it’s for.
It was definitely done in poor taste. It makes me wonder how many people who read this book actually got off to it. I stopped reading the book half way through, it read too much like an erotica. I wouldn't be surprised if the book was marketed towards child predators
I got the feeling that she may have wanted to explore it, but mistakenly focused on the crime instead of the criminal. She said she didn't want to "humanise" the character, but it also meant that we have no idea who they are.
How can we understand someone if we don't know anything about them?
@@Blue_Sonnet exactly. She definitely could've explored the relationship the teacher had with her husband imo. That relationship is disturbing in itself, the idea that a woman is forcing herself to be in a marriage with a man she's not even attracted to. But that's just an opinion of mine. By focusing on the crime the book lost its theme
"Okay, what ridiculously tiny moral slight did this author commit that will be blown-..."
"It's about a female teacher and sexual predator preying on her students and the book is largely pornographic."
"Oh."
"I told you this would be bad."
"Yeah, yeah, you did."
Shaking your head at the beginning, I am so ready for this video. I have no idea what this book is about yet
Edit: oh god
Me just starting the video: That edit has me wondering...
The timing on this is something. I just saw a story on Law and Crime yesterday about a grown woman posing as a 14 year old to SA boys. I cannot imagine how someone could write this subject matter to titillate. Commenting for the algo and this is a topic of discussion in both life and clearly, publishing (but why HC? Why? That's a great question) that's very needed, but this is revolting. You're a champ, Ian, to read this stuff and tackle this. Edit to add: You saying that its written to spread the darkness and corrupt people who read it - YES! It's the person who wants to watch the world burn, gets off on it by spreading the misery.
So many cases of female sexual perpetrators in the school systems all over the country. Its insane. I just cant believe every other day i hear about some alleged teacher rapist or woman pretending to be a teenager. Something is very very wrong with society these days.
The author perhaps has a desire to see her degenerate predatory fantasies become a social contagion which she can later harvest.
I hope the FBI is keeping a file on. Her, God only knows what she's done or what's on her hard drive. You don't sit down every day and write this stuff, page after page day after day without a genuine intrest in it.
You should do the audio book for this.
The whole thing read in that annoyed and offended tone. Then it ends with a loud "Ugh!" and the noise of the book hitting the far wall.
Hilarious.
The book cover is sure odd, that’s for sure
That's a vagina!
It's honestly kinda cringe. It tries too hard to be disturbing. It's sensationalist shock value. Honestly, we shouldn't reward that kind of behaviour. It's just a race to the bottom
@@Stettafire agreed, my dear
In today's episode of "what inanimate object will women's bodies be likened to".
@@WobblesandBean the author is female. I don't know who designed the cover though. Here in the UK the cover is a big clothing button.
i feel like i’m on a watchlist after viewing this video
Bruh, I worried about being on a watch list after recording this video lol
What she wrote was abuse not sexual content and the fact that she authentically views it as sexual content that "liberates" her as a woman is all you need to know.
This book feels like the author read Lolita, thought “yeah I could do that” but didn’t understand anything about what made Lolita work
What makes Lolita work?
@@kayligo many things, one thing Tampa did differently is the context of the prose. Lolita is a transcription of the confession/autobiography Humbert Humbert wrote while in prison awaiting trial for the crimes he committed, while he writes the words he knows the entire story, it’s past tense. He also goes over his life before meeting Dolores, including the event that sparked and the then development of his pedophilia. Tampa is also first person but it is present first person narration, no context behind the prose or why it exists, and the author deliberately avoided going over the development of her pedophilia but she has no character outside of it, so as a result she’s flat. Like kids cartoon villain she is constantly bitter, malevolent, and conniving for one reason, being a sex obsessed pedophile, and why is she that? Just because. Humbert tries to trick the reader and himself through a labyrinth of delusions and charisma, what’s her name is just evil for the sake of it. It makes the narrative flat and uncompelling. Apologies if this makes no sense, I’m a 17 year old whose worst subject is English lol.
@@scrumptious_human yeah the author of Tampa doesn’t have sympathy for her main character. Both books are disturbing but Lolita more so in my opinion….anyways you make an interesting point.
@@kayligooh I think Lolita is INCREDIBLY disturbing and a hard read, I’ve had to put it down multiple times. I just think Lolita is a much more compelling story, I think you can write a compelling character whilst also having no sympathy for them.
After you started describing the plot of the book, I decided I shouldn’t watch this, but I did read her other book “made for love” after watching the sanitized HBO TV adaptation. Unfortunately, the book has a large portion about bestiality with dolphins I had to skip and I vividly remember a page of the book discussing how a man wished all women were large sentient breasts that would be filled and maintained by gas pumps filled with silicone. He also made sure to mention the hole you pump the silicone into would be used constantly by men for… other purposes. I don’t even think I ended up being able to finish it.
I read this book a while ago and it kinda falls into this mental category I've been building of books that seem to set out to say something along the lines of "women can be complete monsters, too" that all fail in one way or another to actually say anything interesting or insightful beyond this. I read it around the same time as Boy Parts, and both novels fall into this category for me; they both center monstrous women, and both women are portrayed as though the most shocking factor of their entire existence is their sex.
I find the idea of weaponized / toxic femininity compelling, particularly in the context of women using their societal perceptions of being weak or harmless to their advantage, so the idea of both novels was interesting to me in this context. Tampa does a better job between the two of actually addressing the ways that Celeste is able to wield her status to her advantage, though as you've outlined, I find the actual world around her to be extremely flat and lifeless. I agree with the fact that she is married and her husband being a cop and from an affluent family bizarre, considering it never actually adds anything to the plot or even factored in as a point of drama or tension, iirc. Being told for the millionth time that Celeste is a total monster gets tiresome as well, particularly as it is cushioned between lavish explorations of her lurid fantasies of molesting young boys.
And I guess that's the crux of it; Alissa Nutting is clearly depicting Celeste as evil, but still inserting graphic depictions of CSA in her work. I think the fact that she was able to get this book published at all is perhaps the most salient testament to what I can only assume is the main point of the novel, that an adult woman assaulting a young boy is not seen as an equivalent evil to an adult man assaulting a young girl- but I really don't think that justifies the way she's approached this topic. Furthermore, I'd argue that anyone who needs to be convinced of the idea that these are equivalently evil actions would NOT be persuaded by this novel in the slightest.
I think the author makes her points much more clearly with Celeste's internal monologue about how readily she will discard Jack the second he enters puberty, rather than any of the scenes of assault. (Indeed, the fact that these scenes are written almost indistinguishably from non-taboo erotica is pretty upsetting, and I think less focus could've been drawn to the sex itself, and more to the emotional aftermath for her victims.) The one quote I remember most vividly was when she compared young men to seafood, something to be consumed as quickly and freshly as possible, and this and similar personal musings stuck with me much better than any of the actual sexual content itself.
I enjoyed your overview of this book, and wish the novel itself had been better executed.
You shouldn't get to write cp and then just slap a label on it saying "actually pedos are bad" and get a free pass
Thats what this was
Well said, it's just a lazy excuse, if the material itself can't deliver the message then the author is to blame.
The book is about fictional people. No real people were harmed. It is not CP or CSAM.
It's so exhausting how often books that tackle heavy traumatic topics are written with such little regard or deeper introspection. And always with the most mind numbing prose imaginable. The "Dark" genre (if you even want to call it that) is so bloated with works like this. They all sound like they could be written by the same person half the time.
"Do you think you can mix eroticism or erotica with social commentary and satire when it comes to child SA?"
Yes. As a survivor of my foster sister's sexual abuse, struggling with flight or fight or freeze PTSD since I was only 5, I explored those themes...in private rape fantasy roleplay, with a woman and fellow survivor who earned my trust step by patient step. Because I also had to overcome the religious abuse from my father, who taught me that just going through puberty would damn me to Hell.
She wasn't the first to try to help through sex positive femdom kink. Just the first who didn't attempt a speedrun.
Sarcasm and a larger social context to place all this gender flipped Victorian upbringing helped. So did graphic splatter punk detail. A lot. If we weren't both free to laugh in the faces of horror, or de-sensitize ourselves to the trauma of intrusive thoughts? Especially when we constantly turned each other on anyways?
It helped me develop boundaries. And learn to voice what I wanted in real life vs. just feared possibly wanting vs. thrills and chills escapism.
Especially after another ex raped me by force just to prove she could.
In Tampa's defense, I think it did a lot to prove a woman could exploit the system to manipulate people (like readers, critics, publishers) through a pornographic power fantasy. It was a dirty nuke of a book. And it intentionally exhausts the reader. Anyone who wants to defend the main character has almost nothing to use.
And I recognize the main character's creative fantasy life as way too authentic. So many women I've known, both saint and serial offender (most somewhere between), get off to very, very similar impossible horror fantasy.
In private.
So, to me, all this just helped establish a fossil record of a type of fiction intended to be very hidden and very disposable.
Even this video is part of why the conversation it creates isn't without value.
Even if cold financial calculations cheapened the act.
And I don't intend to ever read it.
'Even this video is part of why the conversation it creates isn't without value.'
I think this sums it up best. As bad as the writing is claimed to be, the fact we're all here on this video to hear about it means there's something about it that at the very least interests people. I don't think it's particularly surprising something like this got published since controversy alone is enough to sell a book.
Personally I don't really like over-the-top graphic stories like this, and after listening to the audiobook for The Girl Next Door I prefer to just listen to the summaries of disturbing books, because that particular book really horrified me so much. But I think this was mostly because of how much of it felt grounded, real, and based on a true story- other stories don't have that effect on me because they're so blatently fictional.
So as for the summary of this book, it... oddly didn't seem that bad? Mostly because of how utterly, ridiculously over-the-top it is, to the point where it almost seemed like absurdist fiction. I definitely agree it isn't satire, but most people (myself included) have never heard of splatterpunk, so I understand why the genre name wasn't used for marketing.
It may be bad writing to have her never facing any real conflict and consequences, but that definitely seemed intentional- the focus wasn't on narrative stakes, it was on cramming as much disgusting behaviour into a single book as possible, and I think the reviewer expected something that the writer wasn't interested in doing.
Stories aren't problems to be solved, formulas to be followed to always reach the 'correct' outcome, and I think the objective of this book was to merely be as shocking as possible.
Finally, I'm very sorry to hear what you've been through, and I do think you're correct that there are many women out there who, although perhaps not as absurdly extreme as in this book, do share a similar mindset. I've seen cases of women who have become teachers just to get to children, and the most sickening part to me is how people react to it. I remember an old overweight woman got caught molesting young children and the comments were sickened and furious at her; meanwhile a young attractive woman who became a karate instructor and preyed on an underage boy had commenters cheering for the 'lucky boy' and complimenting her beauty.
That case has always stuck in my mind, especially the text messages where the woman is trying to seduce him while the kid is just replying about how much he likes Fortnite- it was a completely black and white case where the kid had no interest in her what-so-ever, but people in the comments section still didn't see her as the disgusting predator she was.
Have you read Boytoy? Its sort of a similar premise but from the boy's perspective, he retrospects about his grooming when he learns about his teacher getting out of prison soon. It shows his trauma and how it affects him currently, his fear and paranoia of running into her, and his story is shown through trauma flashbacks.
Who is the author of that book? Maybe I'll take a look at it. Thank you for the recommendation!
@KirkpattieCake Barry Lyga! It's been years since I've read it so I can't speak for the writing execution but this reminded me of it conceptually!
Currently working my way through Lolita. Tampa is next.
You posed some really interesting questions in this video. I've added them to our list of things to talk about when we do the stream. I can't wait to talk about this with you, Ian!
I hope I can catch you guys live. This sounds like a good discussion. Personally, i wouldn't make it far into Tampa. I doubt my favorite ceramic artist would even burn it for a batch of pots. There's 'not for me', and ' oh Hell No.'
I AM SO EXCITED TO TALK TO YOU AHHHH
@@spookyfirst9514 If I wasn't reading it expressly for the purpose of being able to speak on it to Ian, it would also be on my 'oh, hell no' list.
@@KirkpattieCake Same. The reading is uncomfortable, but I can't wait for the conversation.
I haven't read Tampa, (or seen all this video yet), but I did read Nutting's surreal short story collection "unclean jobs" when it came out a decade ago, and I also read some of the articles she had posted in the media about her self described severe anxiety. I intended to read Tampa, as I found a lot of "unclean jobs" powerful and interesting, but just never got round to it. I did read some interviews with Nutting at the time, where she said there had been some cases in the news around that time of female teachers molesting students, and someone she once knew had been involved in a such a case, and she wanted to understand. I also remember her saying she found writing and researching the book a harrowing experience that she needed to "come up to air" from. Anyway...based on my experience of her so far, I trust Nutting. I don't believe she's pro abuse or someone who would romanticize abuse. Having said that, I obv haven't read Tampa yet.
“I don’t what it is, but something about it just captures my attention”- Frank Barone, when looking at his wife’s sculpture
I don't really have a problem with the book because I don't think there's any amount of flowery language that can make me think this stuff is good. It's disgusting but so is horror.
What makes me dislike this is the author's intent to dehumanize the protag. Humanizing doesn't mean liking, respecting, or defending it just means acknowledging that they're a person. Like the presenter notes, the hatred of aging is pervasive in our culture and isn't just a problem when it's used to justify the predation of children. Stuff like this sets up an easy moral Target that just ends up ignoring the harder to identify ones
i seriously agree. Its such a copout for actually writing an intricate and realistic feeling character under the guise of “not making her sympathetic”, when most people would never excuse a character like the mc anyways even if she did have a sad and Tragique backstory. it eliminates any depth and avoids actually resonating at all or getting into legit commentary cuz all the protag is is just an exaggerated horror monster
its hard for this to be believable or real when it doesn’t confront the harsh reality that predators are horrible people yes, but that they still are people whether we like it or not. even the worst humans are super complex, and acknowledging that will help us more to protect children and get to root of why these things happen
The difference between Lolita and this
Its just so...badly written that I can't even be disgusted by her actions
@@SpaceandGoats really? you can't be disgusted with child sexual abuse because you don't know the child sex abuser well enough?
@@OmniBuiit is vile but also so absurd that it doesn’t seem realistic. I think maybe the absurdity of it takes away from the true horror of it
@@heav2582 well, i appreciate the genuine response! in my experience, abusers tend to be simplistic/ stupid, and always less introspective than other's think. so i find Tampa more realistic in a sense, but it def makes for a more tedious, boring story. i forgot most everything about this book except for the ending because tbh it was monotonous
13:22 That's so nasty I would have dnf'd right here.
i dont usually comment on stuff but this book actually made me feel physically ill
It sounds less like societal satire and more like someone's fantasy.
couldnt agree more about it being splatterpunk
Wow this is the first video of yours I've seen and I'm already very impressed by your obvious dedication to RUclips and creating quality content :)
Anyway the book cover was so familiar but no wonder why I never actually bought it lol
It is truly rare that I have to skip through a video as much as I have with this one. The fact that Harper Collins didn’t shut this down is disgusting. Like my body ain’t doin so great these days anyway, but Jesus the fact that she narrowed in on a shy boy made me legit nauseous, I teared up.
I have no idea how you got through this, truly, but I’m glad to see opposition to it, at least. People oughta know how nasty this is.
I’m not sure if I just missed it (I haven’t finished scrubbing the video yet), but I wanted to hear the critique of books like this (like Lolita etc) that you mentioned. I’ll keep scrubbing and listening around, but if you could potentially put a time stamp for those sections in the future? I did really try to hang in through the reading part, and normally I’m very good about compartmentalizing, but this book has impressed me in the worst possible way. You’d think, as a legal analyst who deals with people like this in real life I’d be made of sterner stuff, but I’m just not. It’s made me feel more sick than my autoimmune disorder has ever managed haha.
Also it somehow made me feel bad for a cop, which should be illegal. (If he does something terrible in the parts I’m skipping, then empathy rescinded).
Hey! The comparison and discussion on the collection of books like this will be in a separate video/stream entirely that I'll be doing with @efi reads books some time during the summer. We don't have a date yet, but you won't find that in this video.
And for peace of mind, the husband never does anything wrong. He finds out his wife was raping kids when she's arrested, he asks her why, she doesn't answer, and he leaves and never comes back.
@@KirkpattieCake Ah dang I misunderstood-that’s what I get for doing something else at the same time! I’m looking forward to the video, though!
As someone who teaches middle school I *cannot* with this. It’s so goddamn uncomfortable. 😣
this was published bc of the shock value. i refuse to believe anything else.
i think that the line gets blurry in self publishing over what is too obscene, but there is indisputably a line in traditional publishing and it normally isn’t this.
I want to address the point you made near the end of the video about reaching the people who need to hear the message that Tampa is trying to put across to the reader.
Alissa Nutting would not be trying to reach the people who already think that the molestation of children is an issue; those people would not even read a book like Tampa because they already know and understand that child molestation and sexual assault are bad things. It's pretty obvious to me that this book is addressed at people who *don't* think those are bad things, which is a lot of people. Men in particular have spoken about how they don't think male students being abused by female teachers is a bad thing, and there are women who believe the same thing. This is an obvious issue that Alissa herself would have encountered, likely even in her own private life being that she found out she knew a female predator.
And to that end, I think the way Tampa is structured is important. These are people who already eroticize these encounters, and that eroticization is put into the context of all the horrible, nasty shit that Celeste does and says to get into the position of power she needs to exploit the relationship she builds with the boys she abuses. She doesn't abuse them right out of the gate; you spend pages upon pages in her mind, listening to her thoughts, watching her plan like the predator she is, and it's horrifying in that respect. This is a woman who knows she's young and beautiful, who knows she's likely to get away with it because of how the world works, taking only the precautions she thinks she needs to take. And having that knowledge, especially when we live in a world where female teachers get away with abusing male students often, is terrifying.
I think people are inclined to believe that being willing to depict something to the extreme that Alissa Nutting did says something about her, but to me, in the full context of the book, it just doesn't. The book is pretty good proof on its own that she knows Celeste is a horrible person and that her actions are meant to be disgusting. I actually think that's why the language works so well; it's florid and purple because it stands as a constrast to the absolute atrocity that is Celeste's mindset.
The criticism of the book I think is the most fair is that Celeste is just such a monster that she almost seems unbelievable, but I think that's likely colored by Alissa having known an IRL predator and also because she really wants to get across that this is monstrous behavior. If your message is depicted at people who think abuse of minor boys is totally fine, even something to be sexually desired, maybe your instinct as a writer would be to depict her as awfully as possible in order to make it impossible for people to drum up even a shred of understanding or sympathy.
Also, as someone who reads actual splatterpunk, I don't know that i consider Tampa to be on that level. The actual characterization of Celeste put into context with the narrative and her actions leads me to believe that Alissa does understand precisely how awful and nasty this type of person is, whereas with a lot of splatterpunk, it often seems like maybe that's not true. One-handed writing on the part of the authors, if you catch my drift.
if you really don't thing tampa was written one handed I don't think you needed to waste all of those other words on it
I disagree with many of these comments. The portrayal of a thing is not an endorsement of it and many of these interpretations are in bad faith
yeah. Nutting has a family and I read her interviews at the time saying she wanted to understand the female abuser as someone she once knew was involved in such a case. I haven't read Tampa, but this all sounds like BS. I think it's a generation clash - of the previous generation (IE mine and Nutting's age) where we tried to "understand" bad people, and the modern twitter/tumblr generation where all content is either morally "bad" or "good".
from wiki - "Nutting was inspired by Debra Lafave, a teacher charged with having sex with her under-age students in 2005. Nutting went to high school with Lafave; seeing someone she knew on the news raised her awareness of the issue of female predators.
When asked if it was difficult to come in and out of perspective with a deranged character Nutting replied: "It was like going under anaesthesia-once I was inside it, I felt like I had to make the most of it because it was so difficult to go in and out. I ended up writing in really marathon sessions, 7-8 hours at a time. After I was done each day I had this hangover feeling- my body felt a grand fatigue even though I’d been seated the whole time. It took me a while to become verbal again after writing."
Ah yes, the tried and true test of one’s morality: if she has a family she couldn’t possibly be a sexual deviant. Not to mention, she literally said words to the contrary! Plus, we all know that anyone who claims they are “bringing awareness” by creating pedo smut for the YA crowd, couldn’t possibly be….. gasp…..lying to get a pass for this abomination!
Omg so glad other people thought the same I was livid after i read the book and talked ab it on fable but everyone there was clocking me and liked it😭😭😭
The only two books I couldn’t finish were Lolita and Tampa because I am REALLY not interested in going back to trauma therapy for that kinda BS 😂
It's high-key giving dead dove don't eat tag on ao3
I'm new to the channel and knew nothing about this book and I was NOT ready to hear the premise. I'm at 1:40 and already shocked out of my chair. I need to pack a bowl for this video😭
42:00 ..... EWEWEWEWEWEWEWEW NONONONO BUT SERIOUSLY WHY WAS THIS PUBLISHED??? This makes loli and shota look tame WTF
The way you started this video tho.... 😂😂😂 You got me scared for this review Ian let's gooooo
... my oldest is 14. I can't imagine being romantically and/or sexually attracted to boys that age 😱 Heck, I'm 39 and can't imagine being attracted to anyone under 30 anymore!
i saw the the cover and said "is that... what i think that is..."
my problem was that this book (yes I read it) wanted to be Lolita but the author wasn't a very good writer. A very boring and somewhat nonsensical book despite the extremely provocative subject matter. I have nothing against creating art about abuse of minors btw. it's very valuable to talk about such thing even when the depiction is kind of messy. Of course it's taboo and disgusting but I wasn't really that offended by it because the description of the abuse was so uninteresting and mechanical.
I don't get all this moralising language around writing sexual scenes that are clearly supposed to be gross. you end up saying nothing in the end. like everyone thinks that grooming children is bad but how people go about it in practice reveals what they actually believe. I think it's much more important to talk about HOW SA of minors works and gets enabled than just go "p*do bad!"
There is actually this old anime called Door to the summer that's about an older countess taking a young boy as her "lover" I think it depicted the pain of the boy really well when he realised that the countess only wanted to use him.
I’m a survivor of Female on male child sex abuse and I thought about reading this book because I liked the plot description on Wikipedia and I liked the idea of showing the POV of an attractive female predator.
I especially liked the idea of showing the female predator’s sex fantasies about under aged boys because it shares that even if a predator is an attractive woman, she’s still a disgusting pedophile just like any male predator. But it sounds the author just wanted Too far and just wanted to create something shocking rather than something that truly provides insight.
As a survivor, my gold standard for a piece of media that actually shows the mind of a female predator is the film may December. It really showed how shallow, abusive and childish a woman who would trap a child into a relationship by getting pregnant from her abuse of him is. I especially loved how they showed damaging it could be to a victim of grooming .
to add to your list if you wanted to cover it - Ian McEwan (author of Atonement) recently released novel "Lessons" is about female teacher on boy abuse.
Thank you very much for the suggestion! I actually am really interested to see how a male author would handle the same situation.
@@KirkpattieCake I really enjoyed "lessons", It's got some bad reviews and is a bit long, but I was into it from start to finish. The abuse is only about one third or so of the novel though. It happens in the 1960s too, between a boy 11-16 and his troubled female music teacher. -- when I read "lessons" I remember thinking there were 3 novels on the theme ...Tampa, Lessons and another, but now I'm blanking on what I thought the 3rd was
@@KirkpattieCake "doing it" by Melvin Burgess is another novel about female teacher abuse
i fail to see how this is in any way remotely trying to shine a light or correctly demonize female predators, when it's so insanely vile, graphic and so poorly written in a way that makes the villain always win, that it makes infamous furry cub porn comics almost seem tame in comparison
This is book is so horrible, it makes the phrase "of course it happened in Florida" sound almost like a compliment.
i just dnf'd at 42%. i couldnt do it. disgust is just not a strong enough emotion for me to continue reading this shit
The only splatterPunk I’ve read was “Playground” and that book messed me up a bit ngl.
This book is just sad, it just proves, that women are Capable of horrible crimes, and acts just as much as anyone
This video needs more than 13k views and under 500 likes. What great reflection on this book and a great presentation
I think there could be erotica that is satirical or say something on social issues, but this definitely is NOT how it would be done. It would be more satirical if the character with her delusions of grandeur was shown to the audience to be unreliable and pathetic or something. A character who wants to hurt others but has the world conveniently bend and warp to her will isn't really saying anything, at least not how it's presented here.
Dying laughing in the first 10 seconds.
I couldn't put this sort of thing in my brain, I just can't imagine suffering through all of this.
It's in a weird way comforting that basically not matter *what* I write it'll never be as deranged as this.
Omg im so glad i found this video. When i first read it about a year or so ago i was so appauled and i saw no one really talk about it.
A very good critique ❤ Basically a book about a Narcacist. If words are misspelled I am Dyslexic.
Thank you for the like👍😘🌷🌻🌺💕
My personal opinion to your final question:
This book is technically against some interpretations of federal seepee laws (I actually disagree with text only material being jurisdiction of aforementioned regulations and this is not meant to lead to me claiming this book is breaking the law just existing).
I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that a publisher picked this up, but I think they should be legally allowed to.
If I were a publisher I would see such an egregious set of vignettes depicting absurd levels of just s3x without educational or social value and reject it. There is no commentary it’s just tab-rotica better left for the n-i-f-t-i-e-s of the internet.
I tried reading this book years ago, got to the point where the dad died and just couldn't finish it. Thank you for your service, now I can die knowing the book continues to be pointless.
It really confuses me how some books get published while many amazing books take decades or sometimes never get picked up by a publisher. I just don’t get it. Also, The Art of Racing in The Rain is a great book, but only has one case of… impropriety between a minor and an adult and is handled well, that is if I’m remembering it correctly.
Omigoodness I read this book so long ago. I thought that the author really didn’t know how to execute the message she was trying to convey. (One star rating from me.) But I’ve been thinking about this book and off for years, basically every time a case like this comes up and I’m so excited that you’re going to be talking about it so I can hear another perspective!
Thank god everyone felt the same way about this book. I only read about a third before I couldn’t do it anymore. Im not an avid reader so I had gaslit myself into thinking I just didn’t get it 😭
I'm so sorry, dude. But I know exactly how you feel.
yo check this author's phone
The way this book is trying so hard to be Lolita without understanding what made Lolita work. Humbertx2 exists has he does in the narrative to show how predators justify their actions, the ways they act, and how they get away with it. It's impactful because of how realistic it is.
This book isn't realistic at all. This isn't how you can imagine a real person acting, and this isn't how predators actually operate.
The author of Lolita was an alleged victim pulling from his own experiences with his uncle, and perhaps that's why it actually managed to say something, where as this novel you're talking about now is just shocking to be shocking as you said.
Alissa Nutting's novel was published in 2013 and yet it seems as if it has only been noticed by RUclipsrs the past few months. That's interesting. I think "Tampa" is a searing character study, a fast-paced narrative written with clarity by an author with a sure hand with description and technique. Is it disturbing? Yeah. The subject matter makes that very clear. Are the characters memorable and the story captivating? I think so. The narrator is a woman who is completely devoid of sympathy (the female Patrick Bateman) and a teacher to boot. All of that is a real problem for many readers. As is its extremely graphic and descriptive writing. It I also extremely rare and very intriguing. I think "Tampa" is a book to be read and talked about. To be argued over and it will offend some readers and exhilarate others. That makes it a success.
She is not the female Patrick Bateman lmao. That is a gross insult to Bret Easton Ellis. There is so much more going on in American Psycho and it doesn't rely on graphic descriptions every second of the day. It actually establishes Patrick with relationships (or lack thereof) in yuppie culture. This doesn't even try and relies on the trope of women writing nonstop sexual, over the top descriptions and then calling it liberation. There's no plot, there's no setting, there's no arch, there's no point.
If you want to say this book has value, then I wish you'd do it on its own merit, not by comparing it to a book it has nothing in common with.
@@KirkpattieCake When I read 'Tampa" a few years ago by the time I got ten pages in I was thinking of "American Psycho". Not in the specifics. But in the general detached style of the first person narrative. Also, I feel this is a much better novel than "American Psycho" for a number of reasons obvious to anyone who has read both, but consider; there really aren't any serial killers like Patrick Bateman. Not really. Bateman is an exaggerated portrait of real-world horrors which are presented though a narrative defined by pretentious attempts to attack 'consumerism' and Yuppie Culture. There ARE however teachers who will sexually assault students. Nutting with her novel just gives it straight, a story of a complete sociopath who cares not a bit for the other lives she destroys but will stop at nothing to satisfy her own perverse desires.
lol, I find it interesting you'll say an exaggeration like Celeste is accurate after the author said she went out of her way to try to dehumanize the character so much to the point she's not real, but take issue with Patrick. Still disagree, but doesn't matter, we see things differently and that's all there is to it, but the books are not the same at all.
@@KirkpattieCake I don't take issue with the character of Patrick Bateman... if he is a character, I would argue he is more of a cipher from which Ellis' observations about 80's consumerism culture is filtered through. Ellis' novel is an exercise in style and shock value and while Nutting certainly goes for some shocking scenes, in the character of Jack we get some real humanity and a way to see and feel the destruction that is caused by sociopathic people like Celeste. There are no real Patrick Bateman's in the real world. He is an author's creation. But Celeste? Despite what Nutting says, in making her not real, in my opinion there are MANY people like her out there.
she is not the female patrick bateman at ALL (that is an insult to american psycho's author) what are you talking about
Wow, I thought the Table-Kun scene from Code Geass was bad! Nina Einstein violating the table in the student council room is _NOTHING_ compared to what this monster did to the desks in her classroom!
I clicked on this video to listen to it while doing something else, and whatever it was that Alissa published despite the great flow of the video to explain what it was. Has all literally just been censored by my own brain and I'm too scared to replay the whole thing to take it all in and understand it, great video though, I just wow.
i (think) i was groomed when i was 11/12 by a 15yo (i don’t know if that’s how it works and if not i sincerely apologize) and i told some friends when i was 13/14 and they CONGRATULATED me. they say “awh yeah that’s cool” and gave me high fives.
im so sorry 🫂
@@wittykittywoes im all good now! it was almost 10yrs ago:)
@@iinsomniick you’re so strong for making it through, though
@@wittykittywoes ah i don’t think so but thank you:)
I feel like this author needs to be put on a watchlist and kept far away from kids.
How? Simple, they were all in tears laughing about the last name "Nutting".
I’ve been looking for a review for this book for MONTHS! A friend convinced me to read it and I have no freaking idea what to think
EDIT: your review and this video is AWESOME. Subscribed!!
0:07 I know, I know. 😂
I remember hearing about this book when it came out but I wasn't interested in the story. But I remember Nutting got inspired because a former classmate of her's was in trial for performing the R on a minor.
28:49 questioning those life choices eh Ian 😂
If I were her husband and it was police one time miss me with that "knows more than he lets on but does nothing"
Who was it made for?
I'd wager pretentious people who want to say they read "satire" and lecture the plebs about how they're "missing the point".
You know me Ian, I'm a wannabe edgelord and even I found this disturbing though I did see someone call it a "sexy little novel" so it's made for that person I guess.
This is eerily similar to the Cuties situation. I believe it was a French film focused on a group of girls who wanted to be dancers and were basically sexualized and put into deeply inappropriate situations throughout the film with no real repercussions for their or others actions in the end. The creators claim that it was to expose the predation on and sexualization of young girls in the entertainment industry but in doing so they basically made a softcore CP film. This sounds to be a similar situation where it is hard to believe the intent with how graphic and "titillating" it is to a very specific audience that the creators claim to find reprehensible.
You have to be a phenomenal storyteller to tackle subject matter like this. There are definitely ways to do it that get your point across in a manner that doesn't end up creating the kind of thing you're supposed to be criticizing. I do think there are things that do not need to be depicted in media and can be eluded to or explained in a more clinical way without subtracting from the point. I've been called puritanical and a prude for that take, but it's how I see the topic. At a point, the description is no longer just a description, but rather the author and target readers reveling in the act, living it, and getting some deeper satisfaction from it. Not every character, action, or plotpoint is a reflection of the author as a person and a great writer will be able to write incredibly diverse and varied stories and characters; but when something is repeated so heavily, enforced so much, and in the end, endorsed by the story...
Hi--Just found your channel, and enjoyed your commentary! Also just finished this book today, having been steered toward it by buzz about its being a "disturbing" book. It succeeds in being disturbing for sure. However, erotic romance being one of the genres I write in, I DID NOT find this book qualifying as "erotic literature" or "titillating" in any way. This was a nightmarish, surreal journey into an evil mind--I found it very chilling. Celeste is indeed a demonic character--she has no "love" for anyone--not in the least--a total narcissist, concerned solely with satisfying her own perverse desires--the vibe was more like she got off on the thrill of defilement, spoilage and destruction. She plots, stalks, and fantasizes about the deaths of her prey; she fears death--terrified of it, in fact. She's addicted to skin care, plastic surgery, and is totally aware of the evil, criminal nature of her actions. She takes measures to conceal her liaisons with Jack, including allowing his father to die rather than call 911--she looks him in the eye while he dies. Celeste Price is one of the most evil criminals I've ever come across in many years of reading fiction. She effectively used her beauty and the high-priced legal counsel she enjoyed (puzzlingly provided by Ford's family) to score a probationary sentence. And the book concludes with her living in squalid conditions, yet still plotting conquests of adolescent males. A very sickening, emetic vision. The writing left much to be desired, to be sure. Yet the character's evil, amorality, and obsession with plumbing even more obscene depths of depravity and crime are effectively conveyed--she's 1000% satanic. Good point, too about her "black magic" practices--like the inscription of the names on the desks in fluids--straight out of contemporary occult practices there. Anyway, a great evaluation, a challenging book, and I'm a new subscriber!
Well...I feel really gross now...cool...
I feel violated just listening. Yikes.
I am so happy the algorithm threw you at me. Granted, this being my first video of yours is a bit like baptism by fire haha, but i love your commentary and your well thought out suggestions to how the author could strengthen the narrative.
I also reall appreciate your "men writing women" rant because i truly agree that it is ridiculous for people to complain about that when there are thousands, maybe even millions of examples of women writing women AND men terribly. Especially in the smut genre. Like you say, some people just dont write people well. Men or women, it doesnt matter. Some writers just arent good at writing.
Thought it was a book about sewing for a sec😢
Man, the poor husband.
What the fuck did I just listen to?! That book was awful! More please 🙏
I thought "Ha, like a poon," when I saw the cover, then I read the comments.
Omg i thought the exact same things as you when I finished the book. I was grossed out.
i started listening to the audiobook, went in cold, stopped listening after 9 minutes 😵💫
i'm writing this before watching the full video, but i also just finished 'Tampa' recently. first, the cover might be the most effective cover i've seen. it's beautiful, and it just fits the book so well.
i separate sexuality into erotic, desire, and pornography. i would describe this book as purely pornographic, nothing else. which i would define pornography as something only meant to be experienced, and the experience is intended to be sexually pleasurable to some. i liked Nutting's idea with this book, and her writing style is delicate in it's brutality. it's like Peter Sotos, but more tasteful. the main character (which i forgot who's it's based on. i also learned of the women when looking up reviews, but i just didn't think it was so important to the actual book.) is so great imo! like a Judge Holden-esque evil. there's literally nothing to her aside from sex. so focused on her addiction to sex and taboo, just trying to recapture the joy of her first fix. she builds her whole life on one vice.
like Celeste makes so much more sense when you know she just wants to sexually abuse boys. you mention how she targets boys who don't initially want to have sex with her because of control. which, i would agree, but i think predators don't really care about the psychology of the actions. they just know shame and remorse make it harder to speak up after they abuse them. that's kinda why i think the book is so effective in what Nutting is attempting to convey (personally i gave it a 6.3/10 or 3 stars). Celeste just skates by because everyone else around her sees a needy woman, not a vicious predator. they see past her lack of humanity. enamored by her aesthetics and thin veneer of compassion, they seek to help her. minimizing her autonomy just because she is pretty.
i rated the book as mid because, i haven't read 'Lolita' admittedly, this just sounds like a gender-swapped and more raunchy version of 'Lolita'. swap Humbert's ornate language and pedagogical pedigree with Celeste's looks and pedagogical occupation, and i feel like it's basically the same message. people focus too much on understanding the predator's mind, they forget the suffering predators inflict on to others. they forget about the victims.
i will say the court scene was phenomenal in that regard. when the boy was testifying and, due to his nativity, expressing sympathy for Celeste, my heart was breaking. to be forced to mature at the hand's of a monster is terrible. meanwhile Celeste can cause so much destruction, but because her aesthetics and gender equate to more inherent worth in our patriarchal society where we view men as perpetually horny, sexual aggressors, she skates through life without any real consequence. she is onto enjoying the views, in more ways than one, and to never maturing past when she was 14. i think it paints the cycle of CSA pretty well. i do think pedophilia is a sexuality in a sense, not one i think deserves any sympathy just to make it clear because ik just saying the wrong thing immediately makes a person a child abuser to some (but if you don't care about lying, you can always just say vague nice, things and hunt under the camouflage of polite society. which is what predators do.). to a good percentage of child sex abusers, it's strictly about hurting and abusing children because they are easy, pure targets. children are ignorant to their abilities, and amount of control. children see adults as authority figures, and child sex abusers see them as pornographic toys.
this is also why i hate the terms 'child pornography'. that term just accentuates the artificiality of taboo, and minimizes the harm these acts spread into all factors of the child's life. it's abuse, honestly the worst, most devastating kind of abuse any adult can do to a kid outside murder. abusers like that love when others try to help and heal them of their corruption because then it moves their culpability onto other, more metaphysical aspects, and away from their autonomy. that's also why the hate the truth. they like opaqueness, and illusions of depth.
i think Celeste is a good personification of how we glorify evil. readers completely ignore what women say to live in a philosophic, humanist fantasy land where no one can *truly* be evil and even a monster is worth redeeming if they are pretty. often the excuse of 'well there MUST be reason!' is used to search past the real reason abusers do it for, which is self-gratification. Nutting is so smart in using Celeste! Celeste makes absolutely zero growth, change, or progress throughput the story. so ofc people ignore her simplistic sexual motivation, and try to see the depth because women are dumb? i truly don't get why people want to see any redeeming value in Celeste, or why folks want to learn anything from her besides maybe idk being a better abuser? the characters around her are forced to grow and change because Celeste wants to be 14 again and experiences that initial taboo-induced pleasure of sex. it's unfortunately every one else who will not only have to suffer for her purely destructive wants, but they have to find excuses for her because her simplistic desire for cumming seems so out of proportion with the destruction she leaves in her wake. that's why she's the bad guy, cause CSA literally only hurts innocent kids for years to follow, sometimes their whole life, just so one evil pervert can orgasm harder than usual.
e: also i think it's very childish of people to mock Nutting's name. yes, 'nut' is also slang for men ejaculating/ men's ejaculate. it's not that funny. i feel like there are better times to laugh at sexual wordplay other than when discussing CSA. it's a serious issue, some victims might find it offensive when other's try to find the humor in traumatic memories. like myself, i do find it offensive. 36:00 is perfect representation of my this point actually.
Kinda weird how her name is Nutting since that’s probably what she was doing the entire time she was writing this. Sounds like that’s all her character did.
I'm late to this video, but oh my god writing something like this should warrant an investigation and I'm not even kidding.
What’s more horrifying is I found out it’s on sale on the TikTok shop
Harper Colllins will publish this shit but not add gay cats to warrior cats-
Lol. "Gay cats."
Looking for the next 50 shades of grey. That's why they published it. 50 shades is a terrible book. Very badly written (and I've never read it, just seen reviews with excerpts). But it made money. It's all about the money.
Noone involved in "Tampa" was "looking for the next 50 shades of grey"
@@mutate34 really?
They weren't looking for a money maker?
Tell me more.
@@YTEdy Nutting came on the scene as an alternative/surreal/bizzaro author with a strong feminist slant. She was given a bigger deal to write a serious look at female molesters. Obviously the authors and publishers wanted to sell books, but "50 shades" is fun (if very problematic) entertainment with a wide appeal. Tampa was always supposed to be a difficult and challenging "lit" novel about female abuse. This was never meant to be wide-appeal fun like "50 Shades".
So no, while the novel was promoted and HC did want to sell copies to lit/crime readers, (and it has a more commercial "mystery novel" cover here in the UK), this was never meant to be blockbuster mass entertainment.
@@mutate34 Solid points. Interesting too.
I didn't get the impression that you suggest, listening to this video. The excerpts from the book she read did seem over-sexualized, unnecessarily so.
KirkPattieCake sounds very critical of this book and listening to the excerpts, I'd describe it as more smutty than challenging or eye opening on the subject of female predators, but that's just my impression of the bits I've heard.
But, I still like your argument. Worth considering.
@@YTEdy thanks. I haven't actually read Tampa. When it came out I thought it sounded too disturbing for me. I did used to like Nutting's stuff though. Interestingly another huge (here in the UK) author has just released a novel about female teacher on boy abuse - Ian McEwan's "Lessons". (which I have read, and while being from the victim's POV, is strangely sympathetic to the abuser).
This is a lesson in how sometimes thought experiments don't need to be brought into the real world. Or this could have been a short story and served the same odd purpose.
13 minutes in…not sure if I can finish this one…it’s extremely disturbing
You are hilarious! Love your energy, keep it up🫶