My Toughest Reads This Year
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2024
- Today, we will be exploring three books that explore a very difficult topic.
Shout out to @Chareads and her illuminating review of Lolita:
• Lolita by Vladimir Nab...
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Intro footage by David Gallie:
• Video
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linktr.ee/plaguedbyvisions
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TIME STAMPS:
00:00 The origin of this video
09:40 Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov
23:33 The End of Alice by A. M. Homes
35:33 Tampa by Alissa Nutting
52:23 Outro 
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japanese lolita culture is an intrinsically anti-misogynist movement created by japanese girls and women who wanted to look cute in a way that didnt appeal to the mainstream japanese male gaze. it shares the same word as the book "lolita", but they are entirely unrelated, and its very unfair to the women and actual little girls that partake in the culture to be seen as trying to emulate a pedophilic book. the lolita style in almost all cases has the legs, arms, and chest fully clothed, and is not sexualized in any way, because sexualizing is the opposite of what its supposed to do!
Oh, no! I apologize for the skewed angle from which I mentioned this subculture. I realize now I was confusing it with the anime depictions of young girls which shares the name and most definitely appeals to a… different kind of audience. I hope you don’t mind if I pin your comment, as I feel it has valuable and illuminating information!
What do you mean by "pedophilic book"? Do you mean the book is written by a pedophile, or that it is about a woman pedophile? I agree it is the 2nd, but definitely not the first.
I don't understand this objection. Isn't lolicon a real thing? Is that somehow separate from Lolita "culture"?
@@Jonjzi Yes. Lolicon (which stands for lolita conplex, a phrase that describes someone with a sexual fixation of young/young looking girls) is the depiction of young/young looking characters in a sexualized light. The Lolita fashion culture is more akin to porcelain dolls in aesthetic, and as the previous commented mentioned, not explicitly sexual.
@@user-qh7bd3mc4s If that's the case, why is the fashion style called "lolita" in the first place?
Maybe one thing that makes "Lolita" less disturbing is the fact that the antihero seems more delusional and lacking in self-awareness. Meanwhile, the one in "Tampa" is fully aware of what she's doing and just enjoys manipulating others and getting away with doing awful things.
@@originaluseername Um... what?
A lot is lost when it comes to Lolita in terms of origins which the non-fiction novel The Real Lolita: The Kidnapping of Sally Horner and the Novel that Scandalized the World by Sarah Weinman addresses. Because while Nabokov likes to keep a distance between fiction and reality (therefore he kind of denied how the kidnapping influenced this novel that he had been trying to write for years), it goes into depth about how he nearly burned an earlier attempt and Vera, his wife, took it from the trash and a lot of build up over the years until he finally wrote it. And how this book was always clearly meant to be horrific, and how it was a French publisher that first caused it to be marketed inappropriately with the cover they did as no one else but them would publish it at that time due to the nature of the content. It's an interesting read, and the story behind Sally Horner and also the story of Nabokov's trek to writing Lolita.
Vera, Nabokov, and their family were actually quite disturbed by the reception Lolita got with the way people would dress up as 'Lolita' and romanticize the story and its contents. And in fact, Delores was his second favorite character of all his novels for how strong she was for all she had went through. And also another point is Nabokov as a child himself was molested by his uncle. It's entirely possible like a good amount of transgressive fiction, it was an expression of trauma that the author has lived with throughout their life finally expressed, as well as the use of language as you've explained here.
Thank you so much for providing all of this helpful context! I think of particular note, for me, was how obvious it was to me that Humbert Humbert was meant to be a disgusting monster. I myself didn’t get any of the more sympathetic notes many others claimed to have perceived while reading. I wonder how much marketing and social norms influence these perceptions?
@@PlaguedbyVisions You're welcome! And I agree, I never got as to why anyone sympathized with him when it's very clear he's a monster. The only answer must be the way he manipulated his words so thoroughly and the language used distracted away from the horrific nature of what he's done. Even when it's so clear what he's done is disgusting.
It only gets more hollowing when you're reading it or rereading it, knowing Delores died during childbirth and he's flipping so much of what he did to her, a child he so brutally harmed, onto her, and she isn't there to defend herself. It's saddening and angering knowing even in death, he's still victimizing her.
That's a good question - one of Nabokov's Big Nos when publishing it was he did not want a girl on the cover, I can't remember what exactly the first cover was but I know that over the years there has been many different ones. But here is the quote of what he originally wanted: “I want pure colors, melting clouds, accurately drawn details, a sunburst above a receding road with the light reflected in furrows and ruts, after rain. And no girls.” and obviously as we know, his wishes have not been respected after some time because they have used girls on different editions. I'm sorry for the ramble, to the point, I think it had a lot to do with it. The Vanity Fair blurb is one that sticks out to me a lot and makes me think the person who wrote it must not have even cracked open the book. And because of the time Lolita was written in, when these things weren't viewed as they are now and it was significantly easier to blame a child for "seducing" their abuser - it somehow still has stuck around, with the perception of this novel due to some readers sympathizing with HH, which I find quite disturbing.
I am a huge believer of healing through fiction! And your Tampa review just sealed it for me. I need to read this book! I was 14 when my high school principal sexually harassed and assaulted me. I never understood why it felt wrong when she would touch me. I feel like by reading Tampa (as with Lolita) I'll be able to feel seen in a way. And I'll allow myself to heal. Your review was beautiful!
I’m really happy that me talking about this vile book can help others! I think it’s a conversation that needs to happen more often (in a safe way of course) to dispel so much of the emotional baggage that comes with it. My experience was being SA’d as a kid by a priest, and the dynamic (along with the revolting questions around pleasure vs. pain within abuse) was very similar, and I think Tampa is the only work I’ve read that has fully shed light on this issue in such a tantalizing way.
Babe wake up, new Plagued by Visions
Babe, wake up! WAKE UP! Babe? Babe?! Oh, God… OH, GOD…
Sounding like a broken record but.... fantastic conversation on this as always! Always great to see a video from you!
Thank you, Pax!
I agree I just love all you great booktubers
What I appreciated with End of Alice is that it read like a horror story. It shows that it NEVER works out having sexual relationship with children, for anyone involved. It is psychologically scaring and horrifying. There was no romance. Also, the man telling the story of Alice is an extremely unreliable narrator. So, you can't believe him when he claims Alice was willing. At least that is my take. I do like A M Holmes writing. And im glad to see you back making videos.
I’ll agree, End of Alice seemed like the most condemning and genre-like of them all! It had shortcomings for me compared to the other two, but what I did appreciate was the dedication to exploring this taboo within an inch of its life.
Lookin' good, Juan! This year my roughest read was Nothing to Envy by Barbara Demick, which is a composition of interviews of six survivors of the 90's famine in North Korea. The whole time I was thinking about how these were normal, sane, intelligent people whose understanding of reality was so warped due to their surroundings. The content itself is horrific, but the implications on the fragility of the human psyche was a nightmare on another level.
Thanks, Mr. Buff Pika! You are my fitness inspiration. 😂 This book sounds absolutely harrowing.
@@PlaguedbyVisions i'm honored to inspire gains!
your insight and self reflection in reading such difficult transgressive literature is incredible. you speak in such a succinct and clear way, you've made me approach reading these kinds of books in an entirely different way. I really appreciate your videos, your opinions and breadth of knowledge is amazingly vast and inspiring.
Thank you so much! Such kind words I am unworthy of. ❤️🥹
You don't think such flattery is a little patronizing? I don't know if it is, but if someone told me that I would tell them they're presumptuous about me.
@@StopFear Honestly all I think of is just thousands of people taking time out of their busy lives to give a shit about what I have to say and leave beautiful and kind comments like this one. I would never think anything other than how incredible it is that people care about my words enough to even compliment them. It is a privilege not everyone enjoys.
That double skull is tripping me out 😵💫
Thank you for another great video!
Their name is Twuan.
The depth and brilliance of your thoughts consistently blow me away! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
thank you so SO much for reading this, it was my first disturbing book and since then this genre has been a big interest of mine. love this review and love your content, please keep doing what you do!!
Thank you so much! Glad this video is finding appreciation. It was difficult finding sensible words to cover these titles.
Can I ask you a question. Are you a man or a woman. When I read this book and then read reviews about it I think I observed a very weird thing in the tone of the reviewers which changed a lot depending on who the reviewer was. I noticed that mostly women expressed greater shock at it, but not male reviewers as much. I think the reason this occurs is because women cannot relate to the book because as women they ( I hope) cannot identify with the insane woman in the book. However if you are a man who is reading Tampa then you may identify yourself with the victim character, BUT I suspect that when males put themselves into the place of the victim they don't always see themselves as the victim. Do you see what I mean? I am surprised that a number of reviews I saw do not acknowledge this possibly inherent difference of interpretation. Mainly I think this is because in society there is a phenomenon of males who are in their teens and who are coming of age viewing older women as a fantasy. Women readers probably would not find this relatable.
@@StopFear I'm a woman! I think you're onto something honestly. I personally (thank god) cannot relate to this woman whatsoever, infact I more so relate to the main victim boy. Not to get too personal but I was involved in a similar situation at 14. It's very interesting that you say this though as in the book if I recall the teacher explicitly details the fact that the boys she would do this to would think about it for years to come, and it would keep them awake at night, almost nudging at the idea of traumatizing them. I do wonder though how no one has seen the the different in tone between reviews though
I've just discovered you and your channel - really fascinating, deeply thought and eloquent. I'm going to start catching up with previous videos now!
Welcome to the channel! Your kind words are truly appreciated.
I hope your channel grows more i really find you to be very articulate and enlightening ❤
Thank you so much! Truly appreciate the kind words.
Thank you for sharing this perspective!
Excellent analysis, man (as always). As you know, I am a very big fan of Lolita. I still have not yet read End of Alice or Tampa, though I have been planning to read both. I’m a little disappointed to hear that Tampa presents this way, but at the same time, I’m also encouraged to read it even more in view of your comments. I think you will find it worthwhile to try My Dark Vanessa, which provides yet another perspective of this subject matter.
Thank you so much, Dave! I think I’m taking an extended break from books of this nature, but I’ve definitely heard enough about My Dark Vanessa to make me want to seek it out in the future. I don’t know how helpful or grounded my lofty claims about art of this kind were, but it’s always good to keep trying to find the right words!
Thank you for sharing your experience. The more we speak about it the more we remove the idea that our experience is shameful.
❤
Is that a Mac and Me shirt? That's cool! This is a great in-depth review video as always!
Yes! The ONLY appropriate shirt for a video like this. Thank you for watching!
I never knew George Takkei called God a whore.
This is a really fascinating video. Subscribed!
Aw, thank you so much for subscribing to my weird little channel :)
@@PlaguedbyVisions Thank you for making such great stuff. It's refreshing to see really repulsive, transgressive works given respect rather than being dismissed as 'why would someone want to read that!?'
Beautiful review
On one hand I don't think you should feel pressured to read something that you don't want to but on the other hand this is honestly one of my favorite videos of yours yet. It's clear the challenge you undertook reading these really paid off with insight. Sometimes difficult stuff is the most rewarding. And hey, if there's a safe place to be challenged, it's fiction. At some point I want to go back and rewatch your original review of tampa!
Anyway great work as always
It hasn’t really been mounting pressure on me! Worry not. But I appreciate the concern, and I’m glad you enjoyed the video! “If there’s a safe place to be challenged, it’s fiction.” Beautifully said!
Oh nice, new video! Was just thinking of your channel the other day!
Edit: partway through your video, and in response to your reading of Tampa... oh man... yes, discussion is important, but you should never feel that you need to read something you're uncomfortable with. With how you put it, you have a very personal aversion to the topics that tackle child abuse of a certain nature. If it makes you feel a bit of relief being able to confront it in written form, that's wonderful you were able to have that experience. But no one should feel pressured to confront any type of aversion they have in any form of media, whether it can be freeing for some or not. I wish you the best, and I hope my concern is simply overblown.
I appreciate your concern! I truly do, and I’m glad I started this video talking about my poor handle on the intensity of language, because it has apparently happened again. 😂 Of course, I assure you, all my reading is done voluntarily and leisurely, and my engagement with literature of this kind only came about in a healthy enough headspace to be able to face it in the first place.
I reiterate, however, that your sincere concern is quite touching, and I thank you once more for it!
Beyond the obviously yonic imagery of Tampa's cover, I think the choice of subject matter is interesting.
Other yonic items include flowers, fruits, the flame of a candle, clams, and chance formations of trees or rocks. Books viewed from the side so that the curve of its splitting pages becomes suggestive, these things invite, provide, or are passive.
A button hole, however innocuous, takes something-- it holds on to the button so that it cannot pull out by itself, but is also hidden behind it when the button is closed. So it has that functional 'power' in a way, but I also see a little perversion to its visibility here that's in contrast with the calm white tones of the shirt. A hidden thing photographed with no frills, and a representation of undress itself.
I know this is 10 months old, and I've only recently started watching your videos, but I wanted to take a second and send you my love! As someone who has always enjoyed disturbing and transgressive fiction, it's a joy to find a booktuber who reads the genre with a passion and not just as a test of courage.
Thank you for keeping in mind that we all experience different lives, and these things we experience impact our relationship with fiction: what someone reads should never be a judge of their character. For all the abuse, blood & shit you talk about on this channel it's clear you approach every book and every topic with a place of empathy and open-mindedness! It's a breath of fresh air compared to the many knee-jerk reactions fiction like this can attract.
More importantly Juan, I'm only 6 minutes into this video and I just had to stop and say I hope you didn't feel forced to share your past traumas with your audience. People should be able to find something disturbing, or prefer a certain kind of media, without people digging and digging into the reason why, and pushing people into revealing things about themselves they wouldve preferred to keep private. I love these discussions, I love your channel, but please do not feel like because you have a platform now that you have to share and justify everything. As you said, reading was an incredibly intimate and introspective passtime for you, and it's a privilege for us to be invited in to that! Regardless, to speak so openly about these topics and let us into your thoughts is courageous on many levels. I truly appreciate what you're doing out here, & I hope you take care of yourself as your platform continues to grow!
The End of Alice...well... 🤔...that messed me up worse than Tampa, Lolita, Full Brutal, Exquisite Corpse, Dennis Cooper's texts, etc.🎉 I need some water.
We love you man no matter how disturbing. (Although I do love this type of content)
Appreciate it. 🙏🏽❤️
As always, you do this kind of thing with a level of sensitivity and critical intelligence that the rest of us merely dream of. Great video. I’m reading The End of Alice soon so will be interesting to see if my thoughts align to yours.
I did have a semi-intelligent point to make as well but I’ve completely forgotten what it was.
Oh, stop it, Olly! I really look forward to your thoughts on End of Alice. These things are easier when you’re not the only one suffering.
Your point was probably that I’m looking BUFF as FUCK.
@@PlaguedbyVisions I think you're right!
Your majesty? You have dropped your crown 👑. Earned with attempting Tampa! Great video, as usual ♡
My Burger King crown!
Great video my friend!
I loved your perspective of Lolita and Tampa. I have read Lolita but not Tampa... not yet anyway. I will reread these titles and I will be able to look at them from a completely different view. Thank you for pointing out the level of perception that we are always looking for in our reading and in our everyday lives!! 😊
Thank you so much, Kevin! Tampa necessitates an open and healthy mood. Be warned!
@@PlaguedbyVisions From what you said about "Tampa"...I wished I was back in school!!! 😂 I graduated in '78...and nothing like you described ever happened...to me anyway!!! 🤣
I read Tampa recently so I wanted to watch what other people thought of it and I must say your words on the novel are very well put especially when you called it p*rnographic because I feel like with the way Celeste is presented, it makes sense that it is. Celeste is such a ruthless, cold, and manipulative person that it's just... right? To write it this way, because it's clear to us that she doesn't see anyone as people, just objects of pleasure, a thing to pass time by, an obstacle. So as controversial and horrifying it is to read such graphic details of r*pe, it puts into perspective why Celeste hyperfocuses on her experiences with Jack and Boyd and the way time progresses throughout the book is put into the backburner.
You're very eloquent! I loved the video!
You must read Lolita in regard to Puzzles. Nabokov inserts Puzzles into all of his works.❤
Your english is fantastic, try not to doubt yourself :) You are extremely eloquent. You are passionate and well spoken.
I appreciate your videos because you provide both an emotional and intellectual view on these pieces of media. These are dark and delicate topics, but you present them in a way where we can learn from them (when we can) about issues with humanity we shouldn't just ignore. This is a channel based around intelligent discussions on literature and media that doesn't shy away from some of the most horrific parts of our reality. You don't just enjoy this stuff for kicks, you obviously believe in learning about these things so we can bring awareness to certain issues (or awareness to a book that IS just for shock value so people can go in to these things being informed of what they may encounter)
Anyways, I am rambling, but I appreciate you and your work. Take care!
Oh, thank you so so much. 💕 It’s difficult watching my old videos, but new comments always touch my heart. ☺️
The Treatment by Mo Hayder was disturbing enough for me with regards to this subject matter, along with some scenes in Let the Right One In, I don't think I could read these books so I do appreciate you going over them. What amazes me is how the writers can spend time in that head space. Nice in depth video. I used to read a lot but after completing my MA I switched to playing guitar so I did not read as much, and this year certainly nothing disturbing on this level. Although, I recently started Brave New World which I do find unsettling so far, about 40 pages in. Have you seen the film called The Woodsman? it tackles similar territory I think, not as explicit
Let the Right One In and The Treatment don't glorify sexual abuse of children, quite the opposite, it is portrayed as horrific. I appreciate that a lot of people would rather avoid stories involving this subject. It also amazes me that authors like Mo Hayder are able to write what they do, she did a lot of research, and interviews.
Yes, absolutely! Inhabiting this transgressive headspace is this dangerous artistic endeavor, I find, and one has to be at least in awe of such a feat. Thank you so much for watching!
I read Lolita when I was thirteen (probably unwise but my mom hadn’t the time to watch over me), then I read the end of Alice bc of your videos. Maybe it’s time to definitely disgust myself and read Tampa. Also, I’m on a reading streak about the psychology of evil and it sounds fitting
Another great video, Juan. I, like many, have a complicated relationship with Lolita, and I’m always glad to see thoughtful discussions. My introduction to it during undergrad left much to be desired. I echo ChaReads’ praise of The Lolita Podcast! It helped me sort out some of my thoughts (as much as one can during the hellscape that was peak COVID 🙃) on the text.
I’m glad you’re back and feeling better.
I really have to check out that podcast! I can’t believe I didn’t listen to it before this video.
Hi Juan. I have tried reading Lolita and have never finished it, I can't stand Humbert, his constant self-pity drove me crazy. If it wasn't for your most disturbing videos, I probably wouldn't have read Tampa, that fact that you said you initially couldn't read it was what drew me to it. The same goes for Hogg. Whenever, I hear someone say, that is too disturbing to watch, or read, or listen to, I have to go and do it. A perfect example is A Serbian Film or One Guy One Jar, god I regret that. I'm so happy you're back releasing videos frequently again, and you have a wonderful voice that is relaxing to listen to.
Cheers, thank you, John! Glad to have embarked you on a journey of disturbing exploration. Thanks for reminding me of 1guy1jar, too! 😑
Great video and discussion, Juan! I haven't revisited Lolita since I read it as a teenager but I do remember the jarring mismatch between the romantic way the story is told and the clear abuse happening on page, and the absolute shock I felt when I recalled an adult woman very close to me telling me how her first boyfriend was her teacher when she was 15... which brings me to My Dark Vanessa, have you read it? I just finished it and thought it was excellent as I saw my teenage self and many of my friends in the main character. Even though it is somewhat explicit, it is a book I'd like my teenage kids to read (if I had them hehe).
Thank you so much for watching, Michelle! No, I have NOT read My Dark Vanessa, but it certainly seems like it’s the next step in this very important conversation!
📚 Juan you're an inspiration xoxo 💕
Thanks Juan. I appreciate your openness now and always. I haven’t touched Tampa yet, or any sexual abuse books quite yet tbh. I have the Jack Caffrey series but haven’t started it yet. Can’t wait to hear what you think about HOGG. Always appreciate your content, always want to see more, I love your story collection, and I’ll be here til you kick me out! Lol. Cheers Juan you are an inspiration. Also I see coin locker babies on the shelf I gotta buy that one I read In The Miso Soup.
Cheers, John! Thanks as always for the support and kind words. ❤
My toughest read of this year (and of all time) is undoubtedly Hogg, which I read after you discussed it in some videos. Abysmal book, it took me a month to get through!
I made it through it last year, and it was certainly the crowning jewel of unpalatable text back then! Congrats on making it through!
I do in fact think that you have a lot to add to the classics. I’ve mentioned it before, but your presentation on Southern Gothic literature is the best that I’m aware of. May I suggest one of the first transgressive books of the Victorian era. Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë. That one pushed a lot of buttons.
Wuthering Heights is one of my favorite novels of all time! Okay, maybe I SHOULD do a video at least on that one haha. Thank you so much!
I would like to put it out there that you are very well spoken. Most people who I know who speak English as their only language are not as well spoken as you. We English speakers need to chill out, or learn another language. As someone who speaks English and nothing else fluently, I do my best to have empathy. It’s very cool to speak more than one language and some languages have words that others don’t have a translation for. I am not perfect, but I don’t expect you to be perfect either. Keep on keeping on.
Interesting insights, Juan. To answer your question, your story "User" in Poking Holes was disturbing to me. I couldn't read it straight through and had to take a break in the middle!
I’m so sorry! Just put on some Sex Pistols and try to forget about it. 😉
@@PlaguedbyVisions 🤣
Seeing that thumbnail had me going, "Oh no. OH NO." Good on ya for conquering these titles though. It sounds like Alissa Nutting's writing is relatively high quality, if she can execute a story like Tampa and succeed in not only disturbing readers but becoming a bit of a spiritual sequel to Lolita.
Yes, I would say voice is Nutting’s strongest skill! She can fully inhabit these head spaces in a proximate and disconcerting way. I’d be curious to read more by her, actually!
My comment really doesn't add anything to your brilliant discussion, but I just wanted to say that I find the jacket design for Tampa is absolutely brilliant.
Agreed, Seamus!
You know it's coming Juan... It's all right!
I can't believe that people thought it was acceptable to theorize about that and I am sorry you conceivably had to read any level of discussion about your own past in terms of abuse.
I agree about the trepidation to cover classic literature but I will say hearing contemporary analysis by you makes a classic more interesting to me. Seeing smart people who I respect talking about these titans of literature has an effect.
A great video and discussion as always. Honestly I won't read any of these books but discussion on literature of this type is extremely important and layered.
A question for you....did finally diving into these particular books remove their power over you? Especially considering how they were set so distinctly in your mind as lines you wouldn't cross.
It’s quite alright! There was never much speculation beyond just people wondering why I wouldn’t read such titles and wondering if there was a personal connection. I mean, they were right lol.
Covering classics is the most disturbing part of Booktube! But thank you for the encouragement. ❤️ And I do feel that my relationship to literature has changed. I’ve definitely mastered detachment! 😂
Coming here to say that while I absolutely agree many reads need to avoid authorial intent/impact, both Nabokov's background & intent really do color how we might understand the book. He was a CSA survivor from his uncle perpetrator, & some of his other work is grappling with the effects of that trauma. I think he's still grappling via trying to get into the mind of a perpetrator. Also, he is to have said that he wanted to create such an unreliable narrator that we the audience will fall for the character and follow him through this horrible mindset. I think both of those things really play into how one should read Lolita. Although, I will admit some of this opinion is colored by Jamie Loftus' wonderful exploration of the book in The Lolita Podcast (which I highly recommend).
I’ve had that podcast recommended quite a few times! I think, for me, the absence of context really didn’t help in any way since it’s impossible to not absorb at least some of it by osmosis. Now I find that I really do want to read more into it!
"Deloris was as bad as Humbert" is an argument I've seen a troubling amount of times when Lolita is discussed. Maybe the wall Nobokov was chiseling at was never all that thick to start with 🤢
Indeed, Chareads had wonderful coverage and commentary on how this particular take was popularized amongst young girls themselves who wanted to feel “edgy” and “mature” by reading Lolita and championing the little girl as autonomous and rebellious. It is frightening to think of how this interpretation could damage so many social perceptions and understandings!
Haha, I think I meant Nabokov chiseled at the wall to broaden a discussion that was painfully absent before his work.
Now that you’ve read Tampa are you going to read my dark Vanessa? I feel like it would’ve been another great book for this discussion
I'd be interested in his thoughts on that too. For me it seemed more depressing than disturbing: let's watch the main character get gaslit over and over 😬
@@CiardisInferno99 yeah….as a victim of grooming/SA myself it was disturbing and comforting at the same time as weird as that is to say. It made me feel like my reactions to the situation were more grounded than I thought.
@@Backgroundcow I'm so sorry that happened to you. The character's perspective did feel realistic/understandable, and I respect the book for that; and it's definitely a good thing if it gives some real-world survivors a voice.
I’ve heard of that from other Booktubers. If you believe it is an equally important addition to this conversation as the books I covered here, I’m definitely inclined to give it a try!
@@PlaguedbyVisions the author wrote the book after reading Lolita and understanding that even though it’s narrator in unreliable, the victim’s voice and struggles should be the focus. she felt that the book was too misconstrued by many readers
As a survivor, trying to read Lolita has always pissed me off far too much to finish. I had to watch the Kubrick version in grad school and it made me incredibly stabby. I've never even gone near the Adrian Lynne version. Although I like disturbing or transgressive books, the other books you mentioned in this video would probably put me into a homicidal rage.
I empathize greatly.
I will agree with you about the scale of increasing intensity from Lolita to Tampa though I have not read the end of Alice but from your description I can see the same; my only comment is that in Lolita the author is speaking directly to the audience and is trying to convince and rationalize his actions as harmless and several times a reader has to rationalize the poetry of the abuse that she was 9 then 12 at her capture whereas in Tampa Celeste is a totally unapologetically abuser and your cultural point on the real case inspiration and female view of sexuality in a predatory sense, also min 47 hit hard so many fantastic points ; I always appreciate you reviews and I am glad that as a survivor I am not the only one who can separate themselves logically from a material as you put it, Stay Strong Man as we stay plagued by visions
Thank you so much! I’m so glad that you appreciated what I tried to do in this video. That is an incredible point about the intent behind voice, and it makes me think that there’s a stronger connection there between these works and Hogg: Humbert aims to convince and rationalize, Celeste seeks to relish, flatter, and arouse; and now in Hogg, we get the cold, detached, inhuman point of a silent observer. So many strands of thought to explore there!
too!
Man you’re fuckin awesome. Just know it for eternity
I personally cannot and will not read any fiction with themes of csa. It is the only line I have for transgression fiction, but it's a line I'm pretty hard on. I do enjoy listening to you talk about it though as you can speak about it in a way that's not too much for me. Although, I'd probably listen to you talk about the intellectual properties of sand if you wanted to, because you're so well spoken.
I kind of consider Lolita to be a horror story.
Very well said. Tampa and End of Alice are on my reading list, but I’m not sure I can ever face Lolita…your argument for a cultural through-line makes me want to try, though
Also? “Pornography made for no one” is a great turn of phrase.
I don’t feel like I got that much more insight into Lolita by reading it, and that is… really bizarre.
@@PlaguedbyVisions that is a really interesting point. I guess there’s so much cultural awareness that that kind of makes sense. And it gives me a pass on forcing myself to read it, so I’ll take it!
We have achieved perfect synchronicity. I have read all three of these transgressive works. I was less evolved when I read The End of Alice and was kinda numb to it. I read Lolita and Tampa when I was older and saw the dark humor in each. Alissa Nutting's book in particular was super-disturbing to me as a straight, middle-aged bloke. The explicitness and the adolescent male fantasy of the narrative made me as a reader creepily complicit in the pedophilia and depravity on display. I think it's a fantastic, feminist work of literature that still makes me deeply uncomfortable. That's also one of the greatest examples of book design in the modern age.
Hope you're keeping well. Thanks for this.
Yes, the cover of Tampa is really something. I recently met a guy who was abused by his babysitter when he was 12. I'd never had a conversation with someone like that, and he was so willing to discuss his reactions to the abuse and how it affected him over the years. He said he never felt 'dirty' about it until he got a little older and people told him he should feel dirty about it, that it was a horrible thing. Apparently, the babysitter (who had been 18 at the time) was long gone to wherever when he revealed the abuse. He is an alcoholic and substance abuser now. He's a brilliant writer but does not pursue it, and mainly works cleaning up the trash or as a barback at dive bars. . Who knows how much the abuse has to do with his self-destructive tendencies. He has very few male friends but many female friends. I could go on and on, but I will just say it was one of the most fascinating conversations I've ever had. He is almost 40 now.
Daniel! Of all videos where I thought you’d recognize some of the titles, this one was not in my Bingo card. 😂
In full agreement with you: Even as a gay bloke in his late 20s, there is… the language, voice, and style of such “fantasies” that Nutting so devilishly uses to surprising effect. I mean, I can recall feeling attraction towards some male teachers I found handsome as a teen, but in that very awkward, personal adolescent way that so tragically sees itself exploited by abusers so often. I think the fact that Nutting explores these moral sinkholes so expertly and unflinchingly makes her an incredible writer indeed!
Wish we could all meet in a conference room somewhere... a weekend with Juan... would be so awesome!
We’ll all meet up in Jonestown.
@@PlaguedbyVisions lol just saw that. I just started working for Nike and my horrible thought was do they have Heaven's Gate edition products...of course I kept that to myself. Sick and inappropriate dark humor to deal with tragedy. In any case, just ordered Poking Holes and Tampa. Will receive them next Thursday.
Thank you so much for the support! 😭🙏🏽
I have a Dutch friend who learned English from Cartoon Network's Cow and Chicken. His English was quite idiosyncratic.
I have gone through a traumatic sexual experience when i was underrage as well and Tampa, for that reason both intrigues me and has me very scared to read.
Not sure if i want to do the book or not. I plan to proceed with caution and only if im feeling spritually and emotionally serene in my life outside the novel.
I think a really interesting paralell to these books would be "Josefine Mutzenbacher" which is a very famous viennies book from 1906. Really twisted porn, that so many have read. It is weird.
I have not heard of this, but the writing of Anais Nin is equally troubling, I feel.
Id recommend My Dark Vanessa its better than tampa, it is disgusting and repulsive and unlike tampa you'll learn something and come out with a new understanding and perspective in the end.
Bro you are Wicked smart
I appreciate that! Thank you. 🙏❤️
LOL, me too learned English through cartoons and School House rock (latch key) , I came when I was three years old but have read thousands of books over a lifetime, jus sayin
I learned through Cartoon Network and horror movies!
Hi! New here. You did NOT learn histrionic from a cartoon, did you?!? Great video to come in on! :D
Wow, what a nuanced and interesting presentation! THank you :D
I guess I did not! Haha. Welcome to the channel! Thank you so much for watching and for the kind words. :)
I admire Tampa it made me laugh it horrified made me think I couldn’t believe what I had just read and I had to take breaks
That sounds like a fairly well-rounded response to have to it, haha!
@@PlaguedbyVisionsWell the book is like a sucker punch to the face. And it left me thinking about it for days.
100% agreed. I initially DNF’d it because it was WAY too daring. Few books have made me react that way!
@@PlaguedbyVisions Good for a second I was worried you were going to renounce me or something
@@dornravlin What?! Of course not! I only LOOK like an a-hole but I try to be nice. 🤣🤣🤣 Jk, but yeah you’re good! Your comment had absolutely nothing to it that struck me the wrong way at all.
Reading is a personal journal and every last one of us have had exposure to events that disturbs us and can cause a trigger when reading. In regards to Tampa, when I first saw the reviews it was described as a sexualized American Psycho and I decided not to read because having read American Psycho, I disagree with the excessive use of gratuitous explicit violence to present a satire and subsequently perceived Tampa to be the same. I had read Lolita, and yes, it is disturbing but it is not explicit. It seems to me, the big difference is that the gratuitous explicitness deflects from the actual story. Perhaps the review of Tampa I read was incorrect but the book is not important enough to me to investigate further.
Lolita... I think it's important to frame this book in the context of the times in which it was written. Although this is somewhat obvious, and you do acknowledge it your discussion, I think this fact gets obscured somewhat by the very terminology people regularly use to discuss it today, language that didn't exist or had very different meanings in the 50's. "Rape" is just one such example of this, and I'm certainly not here to dissuade anyone from using it in connection to the book, but this wouldn't have been considered rape by people in the 50's, even if they found it morally reprehensible. Rape was traditionally always thought of as involving physical force without consent of the victim, and it's definition being expanded to also include anyone we deem too young to give consent - even when they ostensibly have - is a very recent development. Which is just by way of saying that I think Nabokov would have been aware that he was writing something "salacious" that some people might find shocking, or at least unsavory, but it probably never occurred to him he was somehow "romanticizing" rape or attempting to make people sympathetic to it. And no one reviewing the book at the time would have thought of it in those terms, either, even if they did think it was too racy - which American publishers did at first. Again, I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything, just pointing out that we need to keep these things in perspective when discussing historical works from a modern perspective. So when you say that one of the most disconcerting things about the novel is that it doesn't acknowledge the abuse or even give it the name "abuse," you're maybe expecting too much of it, considering when it was written.
Thank you so much for your offering of context! Sincerely, reading this was very eye-opening, and I agree that historical context can be an important element-however, I don’t think I described this as “disconcerting” in an accusatory fashion haha. It’s not an expectation of the author to “do better” or whatever, simply me expressing my own subject and affective experience reading this work, which is what my reviews always are!
I really had to drag myself through reading Lolita this year. Kind of a depressing year in the first place, and then I have ol' Humbert Humbert trying to justfy his sleazy actions in his flowery pompous sometimes made-up language for hundreds of pages...nooo! ha ha but it's really not typical of me to read something so dense, nowadays. Anyway I think what got me the most was watching Humbert Humbert gradually feel Dolores getting too old for him...and she's 15.
Yes, I think that is the single most disgusting and powerful revelation about Lolita: That even after abusive lust can drive someone to monstrousness, it can just as quickly abandon one and leave them spent, and the entirety of written tradition is based on this disconcerting notion…
This is one of the main themes in Tiger, Tiger by Margaux Fragoso. It was a harrowing read.
DEBRA LAFAVE DID BIKINI MODELING?! WHAT THE FUCK?! WHO THE FUCK DID THAT?!
I believe she did it before her arrest, but still, the fact that her photoshoot got ANY press coverage… 🤢🤢🤢
Listened to youtube reviews re: tampa because i wanted more books with vile female protags. Didn't like the premise, felt icky and odd, and said as much to a friend. Friend told me I shouldn't dislike books based off of reviews, said I should think for myself and give it a read. Did so. Dropped the book half way because even though what the MC was doing was vile, I couldn't care less about her perspective. Nothing about her psyche was drawing me in. So I skipped to the end and read the part where *SPOILER* she said something like she wished she'd killed her victims? Threw the book away, literally. To those who said it was a refreshing read because the tables were turned (vs lolita I think), No. Just no. It's the equivalent of seeing someone diddling themselves on a street and cheering it on as a Girl boss moment because the offender is a woman. That's still just a pervert in a trenchcoat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hahaha, I love that you absolutely understood what the point of the book is. Of course it’s to make you angry about all these things! Just remember women have to read about the same victimization of women-in college assigned classics, in the culture, in their homes, EVERYWHERE! I’m sure the world is going to be fine with a little book in it called Tampa by comparison. 😂
@PlaguedbyVisions idk how to explain it better, but the main character felt like a pervert in a trenchcoat rather than a woman doing evil things, if that makes sense - one dimensional maybe? Like with lolita, I really enjoyed how flowery the language was because when those dark parts hit, it was jarring and impactful. Tampa's lead (forgot her name) was just constantly "how do I groom the child, I want to diddle the child," etc etc etc. Exhausting and repetitive. I get the victimisation of women thing, it's why I stay away from certain genres or media, but it doesn't feel like the tables have really been flipped when the female character is so lacklustre
@abbadonne8342 I think it shows something about engagement with literature when “I want to diddle a child” as a resounding statement doesn’t even faze you. Trust me, that’s the cruel humor Tampa is playing with.
Agree with you
I finished Tampa and you're not missing out
Celeste the MC felt like a cardboard cutout of a person, if that cardboard was a sex offender
As a woman 🙂 i didn't see the humor in it, wish I'd DNF'd it
I listened to Tampa over the last couple days. There's a great deal to unwrap and discuss.
I can't say I think it's pornography. Where porn has the specific intent of causing sexual arousal, I think this novel is forcing you to ask yourself if you're being turned on. And if so, what does that say about you? In that way I think there are similarities to 'Hogg'.
It wasn't exactly what I was expecting. All I knew is that it's about a female teacher preying on adolescent male students. I was expecting Celeste to be more of a deeply, criminally flawed, but real, person. I was a little put off when she turned out to be a vain, gold digging, malevolent sex demon.
Overall I'd say it was good, not great. Solid 3 stars. Alissa Nutting is definitely talented. She's got an appropriately funny last name.
English is beyond fantastic don't be so humble as far I can tell you have an extremely rare habit of slightly mispronouncing long words that are both uncommon and exhibit irregularities in spelling.
I have this book on my to read list. Based on your review, I will be reading soon.
Edit:had to sub...this discussion on gender and predators really resonated with me. I've gotten into so many arguments on why a predator is a predator...nevermind their attractiveness, gender, etc.
THANK YOU. I’ve thought about it recently in relation to child predators, and how gross it is to prominently gender the victims, when all victims are just children, their gender as relevant as their height, hair color, etc.
@PlaguedbyVisions I've read the book since I've commented. Great book, but wow, sick stuff. I've had men argue with me on how men can not be preyed on by women. Really rocks my brain.
Better at English than me and I’m English 😳
Get better at Spanish than me as revenge!