Toro Personal Pace Mower Rear Wheel Drive Grinding Repair
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2016
- This video walks you through the steps of fixing the classic Toro rear wheel drive grinding noise. If you've changed the transmission and you're still hearing the grinding noise and the mower won't self propel, this fix could work for you and it's basically a no cost fix. Just the cost of a few washers.
THANK YOU SOOO MUCH... I couldn't believe this video when I first began watching it , so I said to myself, lets see where this is going....well, I took your advice, and installed new wheels and gears and added spacers roughly 3/16 of an inch, just like you said...and now it works like new. I had replaced the wheels and gears before , about a year ago but it made no difference, they only lasted a few days of mowing. Now it is actually better than new...you should send toro this video , and have them address it somehow...this was a manufacturers defect causing this . Unless it's built in to fail..lol...thanks again. I appreciate your taking the time to make this video and sharing it.
Thank you. I think my grinding noise and slight resistance might get solved by your video. Cheers!
Mine is a 20332 and the gears on the wheels are metal . When it was new it game with the plastic gears which wore out in 2 seasons so I replaced them with metal .worked fine for 2 more seasons and now making a grinding noise again. Thanks for the video.I’ll try to see if it’s the same problem you had!
THIS WORKS !!! Just put new drive wheels and pinion gears on and the gear grinding was really bad. I shimmed the bolts as described and there is no more gear grinding. BTW, if you have trouble reinstalling the upper nut, I hot glued the nut to a paint stirrer and it made the job easier. I did not remove the plastic housing to effect my repairs. Dave
I actually found a replacement wheel bolt with longer threads and attached it to the nut. Perfect. ruclips.net/video/RVK_po7BRZs/видео.html
Thanks, Stratodan 27, as your post saved me from also wasting $$ on a new transmission. I found my rear wheels also toed in. The left side wheel gear and pinion were worn so I replaced them (left wheel assembly and left pinion) and added another thrust washer behind that pinion (total cost about $38 for parts). I used a pry bar to bend the wheel bracket on each side so that toe-in was eliminated, and it operates like new!
Cool! Glad the vid helped.
I'll keep this video out here on RUclips for a while longer as it seems to have helped some folks. I ended up selling my Toro a couple months back (just got tired of constantly having to mickey mouse the rear drive system when it started grinding again. Enough was enough for me...)
My yard is flat and I do the bulk of my yard with a riding mower after I do the edging and trim with my push mower. So I bought a cheap Cub Cadet SC-100 push mower and I love it. Light as a feather and no drive system to fail on me!
All the best!
Dan
i'm just about there. won't buy another toro. my better judgement told me not to in the first place.
Worked just as you described
Just use a nut to back up the axle, it is about the perfect size & it wont be able to toe out or in anymore since it sandwiched in-between the wheel hanger & wheel adjusting plate against the deck of mower. This is such a great idea, I read this not long ago from a guy who fixed same problem on a lawnboy mower with the same set up. Works great, bolt from axle just has a enough length to use a nut on the end.. Cheers, hope this helps someone, with this easy fix on a dumb design.
Thanks for the comment. I am that person. I recently made a video showing my fix. I actually got another wheel shoulder bolt with more threads that completely attaches to the nut spacer.ruclips.net/video/RVK_po7BRZs/видео.html
I had the exact same problem with my father-in-law's and we put 2 washers in between that deck and that brace Works like a charm thank you very much
So glad to have found this video. Had the same grinding noise, new wheels and belt and still grinding. Found wheels out of square, toed in just as suggested. My fix was to wedge a wood shim between the wheel brackets and the black bracket. Siliconed shims to hold in place. Also found that the cable was too tight, loosened for just a touch of slack so the drive would not kick in so easily when turning around, etc. Thank You!!
Very grateful for this. I was contemplating throwing the old Lawn Boy out and buying a new one. This should give it a couple more good years. Big thanks!
Glad it helped you. I got tired of having to tinker/fix the drive issue every season so I sold the mower a couple of years back. I got 7 years out of it......engine still ran like brand new. But I had just had enough of that poor design. I'm glad it's gone! Good luck! Dan
Your tip worked great. I had a worn drive gear already so that replacement was a given. After replacing and adjusting the cables to manufactures specs still had a small issue on hills. Your tip about the alignment was the final piece of the puzzle. Thanks for the leg work.
Glad I could help. My fix lasted for a couple of summers with a little tweaking/shimming along the way. Just got tired of tinkering. Sold the Toro.
Just did this exact thing from this video... Now I'm looking for a new mower.. Thanks a bunch man
Yep. Drive system is garbage. I sold my Toro a couple of years ago. I could only band-aid that problem for so long. Drove me nuts.
Just a thought, the decks on these are flimsy and prone to cracking. Shimming the black plate away from the deck with washers may cause cracking as the plates are no longer sandwiched together for added strength. I added a 3/8" spacer between the black plate and the gold plate where the wheel bolt goes through. The spacer has a hole large enough for the wheel bolt to go into as you tighten up the wheel. It does make height adjustment stiffer to move. This tightened the spacing between the two gears without replacing any parts. Hope this helps someone. This video really steered me in the right direction! Thanks!
It worked. The Height adjustment plate is held with two bolts to withstand vertical pressure, but will not handle horizontal pressure. The plate was about an 8th of an inch away from the mower body at the back of the mower. The plate must have been bent. I added the two washers as you did and it helped. I had to put a third bolt in the back near the rubber grass flapper to force the back of the plate in line. With your washers and the added bolt, the wheels turn smoothly forward and backward. Thank you for the idea.
You are a lifesaver. Thinking I needed a new transmission and I just fixed mine in 10 minutes! You're the man!
Glad it helped you! And glad I kept this video out here. I don't even own the mower any more. Cheers! Dan
@@stratodan27 thanks bud I appreciate it still 🙂
Thank you so much! I think mine is fixed also! 7.25 190CC
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. You saved me money and time ! This was exactly the problem with this Honda self-propelled I picked up on Craigslist. All four wheels were toed in. I used washers and nuts as my " shims" and it runs like a champ ! No more grinding like it's about to fall apart.
Thanks again for your detailed video !
Glad it helped you! Thanks for the kind words. :)
Issue FIXED: Hi Stratodan 27 and others, so thanks to this video I was able to do some poking and prodding of my Toro for the rear wheel grinding issue, as this video and its comments helped me figure out the cause. So I ordered the following parts to repair the mower: Bearing, Bearing Retainer, Bushing Sleeve (This was the part that was worn out the most, which caused tons of axle play exactly as David Smith mentioned in the comments) metal gear on axle, snap ring, and new rear drive wheel. I also had to purchase a new adjusting bracket (the bronze part the wheel bolts to) due to bending it with a pry-bar for several seasons. I took the old parts off, assembled the new bearing and bearing retainer, put it all back together and its fixed. The main issue for my grinding was that the bushing sleeve inside the bearing retainer was worn, however the bearing was bad too, so I just replaced all the parts, total cost to me was $65.00 and i'm back up and running with no more grinding. Hope this helps someone else, since there isn't much info on how to fix it the correct way, short of installing a shim into the side of the mower.
That's great news Doug! Thanks for posting. I wish I had known to replace the bearings and the bushing sleeve before I sold my Toro. I pretty much replaced everything else :) $65 is a cheap fix to get it running like new again. I had just reached the end of my rope with that mower. But like I said, had I known about those other parts to replace, I'd probably still have the mower. Someone should make a RUclips video on how to replace those parts, and as you said "fix it the right way". All the best!
Hey Did you get the wheels with steel gear or original plastic. Thanks
joseph puchel I got the oem replacement with the plastic.
Thank you. This fix works.. Be absolutely sure the spark plug is disconnected and ONLY tip your mower towards the OIL (left) side. Never stand it straight up or tip it toward the gas side of the mower.
Well, all I can say is... should have watched this two days ago. Have learned my lesson. Thanks for a very informative video
You're welcome, and thanks!
Thanks Stratodan. I had tried replacing wheels only but that did not completely fix the problem. I then added the shims as you did and now everything is slick.
I hope it lasts for you. It was a constant battle jamming stuff in there throughout the summer. Crap drive system. No regrets selling my Toro. Like I said, maybe your fix will last longer than mine!
Just fixed this model mower using the process in the video! Thanks much!
Cool man. Wow. I'm amazed at the number of views this video has gotten. Glad I kept this vid out here even after I sold my Toro. I just got tired of fixing that darn grinding noise. Hope your fix lasts a long time! Dan
Well, I have the same Toro model mower and problem and, like many others, thought I’d have to replace the gearing mechanism, be it the wheel assemblies or transmission. Following the video I was able to see the toe in difference just under 1/4 inch. Got some washers and fixed the problem. One small oversight was that I opted to use 3 washers totaling just under a 1/4 inch thickness but it was nearly impossible to hold the washers together and run the 2 bolts through on each side. So, let’s not waste washers. I got 4 flimsy twist ties (the ones you use to close bread bags) used each to hold the 3 washer stack together for each bolt and was able to complete my shim installation. Test drive gave me almost full satisfaction. Not full satisfaction because I still have a little grinding. Can’t tell if it’s because the toe-in is still off or if I used too many washers to set the spacing. Maybe someone can send me a possible solution. Thanks.
This is just what I needed. I see now that my wheel is too loose and can twist left and right, which makes the gears not engage. But, I'm tired of taking this thing apart! I'm trying wood shims pushed in between the gold plate and the back plate. This appears to force the gears to engage and keeps the wheel from twisting. First test did remove the grinding sound. We'll see if this really worked tomorrow...
It worked! One did pop out going over a tree root, but mower is back to life! Before this, a new pair of rear wheels only lasted one mowing before the tips of the plastic gears wore off and mower was very hard to push.
Pushing in this wood wedge is much easier than this video shows, but concept is the same. Problem is the wheel can twist and separate the gears too much. Was about to buy a new mower before doing this. I imagine the cause is worn out bearings where the axles come out of the body of the mower and on to the wheel. But, I think I'll just forge ahead like this for now. All better, thanks Stratodan!
BTW: If anyone wants to try this, I used a wood wedge shim (from hardware store). It's about 1/4" inch thick. Original piece was 6" wide and 1 ft long, but I trimmed it down to about 2" long and 1" wide. Shoved this in right behind the center of the wheel. Between the most forward part of the gold metal part and the black plate attached to the mower body, right behind a bolt head on the black plate. This pushes the front of the wheel outward, making the gear on the wheel engage with the metal gear.
I'm sure something else besides a wood shim good get this done, that's just the first thing I found around the house...
I have the same problem and REALLY appreciate your video as it convinced me to buy a new mower. That was a ton of work without the slightest guarantee that it will achieve angles necessary to correct the problem. You obviously are a tinkerer and good at it. I applaud you, but not for me.
Thanks for the post. I finally ran out of patience with the Toro. I'm sure if I bought more parts (bushings, etc.) I could have fixed it with a fix that would have lasted a few years. But I put in way too much time and work into that thing, so the last time it started grinding, I wedged another shim in there to temporarily fix the grinding noise, then I sold it. I showed the buyer the issue and even sent him a link to this video so he knew what he was buying.
Glad to be rid of that head ache. Great mower/engine, but the drive system drove my nuts. I bought a cheap Cub Cadet SC-100 push mower with no drive system and I love it. It's light as a feather and I don't need a drive system for my lawn anyways. I just do edging and around bushes and such with the push power. I use a riding mower to the bulk of my yard. All the best!
Where did you buy the transmission at
thank you so much .fixed mine
Dan, I was working on Mom's 7+ year-old mower (same make/model) and had already replaced a handful of parts (not quite as many as you did) but the grinding and lack of propulsion remained. Saw your (lengthy!) video which made some sense so I gave your modification a try. Mom's yard is very hilly and that makes the self-propelled feature a must-have.
I used 3 washers at all 4 points and my initial test shows it worked. So far, I have not added washers anywhere else.
One thing that I did not expect is that it widened the mower enough that the bagger would no longer sit in its regular location without dropping down and falling off. I pulled off one of the tiny, plastic red hangers, flipped it around and mounted it on the inside of its former location with an extra screw. Seems OK for now ... not sure how long this second fix will hold up. At least those red hangers are probably very cheap if/when they fail.
Thanks for the post Sean. Good news that you got rid of the grinding noise by adding the washers.
Interesting about the bagger issue. I honestly didn't try hooking up my bagger after I made the washer fix. I always mulch. The only time I use the bagger is the very first cut of the season. Gonna have to hook mine up and see if I have the same issue you did. Thanks for mentioning that.
My "washer" fix took care of the grinding noise for about 3 months. But about 3 weeks ago it came back as you can see by my post below. But I'm happy to say the wooden shim I jammed between the gold bracket and the black bracket is working like a charm. I've had no issues during my last 4 or 5 lawn cuts. If your washer fix fails over time......try the wooden shim trick. Might work for you too. I only had to put it in one side....left side. And it's working well. Best of luck to you and your Toro!
I found that the real fix was to install wheels with steel gears and a new steel drive gear against the wheel gear. No noise, and easy economical fix! Orders wheels on line and comes with new gear! Cost, around $70.00 . Search on line for best price. Not amazon....
Good luck!
Definitely not Amazon for best price.
Much thanks as this solved my problem...however instead of using the washers between the black bracket and mower deck I noticed the "bronze" colored plate/bracket that holds the wheel on had a slight bend to it. Using my pry bar I was able to straighten our the bracket and that resolved the problem.
Note that I only had to do the left side (standing behind the mower) and figured that I am always tipping the mower on that side when I pull the blade to sharpen it.
Thanks Gary! Glad the video helped you. I sold my Toro a couple months back and bought a new mower without a drive system. Just got tired of having to band-aid that Toro's rear wheel drive system every season.
Great video and thanks for posting it. I too have this problem and until I saw your video, it didn't occur to me that the wheels had teeth and engaged with the transmission. I can't believe they're plastic.
Thanks Brian! Yep, plastic.
My mower is a 20066 (purchased in 2008). Can I assume I should've changed the wheels by now?
Thank you. Sounds like an obvious design flaw.
Well if the tread is still good and if the plastic gear teeth are ok, then maybe you don't have to. I think mine lasted 5 or 6 before the tread wore down and it was getting harder to go up the hill on the side of my house without it slipping. Then of course the grinding noises started and the first thing I did was buy new wheels. And then the grinding noise came back the next summer! if the plastic sprocket gear isn't lined up with the metal pinion gear, I think will quickly eat up the plastic wheel gear teeth. That's really the key..........in my opinion.
That sounds right to me. I'll take a thorough look tomorrow.
OMG, this has been the biggest pain in the tush! I'm going to have to try this. New wheels work a couple weeks. New gears, no good. Apparently this is a know Toro issue.
I had the same exact problem with my Toro personal pace mower. I replaced the wheels, the gears, the bearing cups and bearings. Nothing worked. So I took a hard look at the axle and the bearing cups. I discovered that there is way to much play at the end of the axle. I went and bought 2 - 1/2" id by 5/8 od. 1" long steel spacers at my local Lowes. I took enough metal off the outside of the spacer so that it would slip inside the bearing cup. Then I trimmed the length down enough that the spacer fit inside the bearing cup so none of the spacer was sticking out. I put it back together and it works perfectly! Wish I had figured this out before spending $50 on parts! The 2 spacers cost $3!
I'll try in my ,is not engaging well n belt is not turning well to. thanks for the info.
I have an older model. The grinding was from the transmission. The pinion gear was just barely engaging with the ring gear. I shimmed the bearing that centers the shaft between the pulley and the pinion thus moving it about .03" into the ring gear. That worked for now. Not sure for how long, but there is room for more shim if needed.
I had initially thought my problem was the transmission, so I put a new one in. Waste of money. The fix in my Video fixed the problem for a while, but it kept recurring and it drove me batty. Sold it. Rather just use a "no drive" push mower. Bought a cheap Cub Cadet on sale for $200. Very happy with it so far. Good luck sir!
I have a model 20332 and my rear wheels started to squeak not grind. It would be nice to have heard your noise before this washer as a shim fix.
my 20334 is 6 yrs. old and started grinding . thought it was the belt dry and slipping. wrong, replaced the belt to no avail. still grinding with new belt. found your video, will try the spacer technique in the morning. thanks for the video. hope it works. this is to heavy of a mower to push with no self-propel.
it will pull itself now. gonna need new rear wheels and pinion gears later.
yeah, put 3 washers under each bolt. 1 bolt could use 1or 2 more to washers to straighten it out. They were out of alignment pretty bad.
yes, but it's hard to pull backwards. is the new self pace belt too tight? Tends to dig a hole on the pivoting tire.
ok, thanks
Put it in center setting get a bar in there bend it back and down. You can leave shield off to check it. The put shield on when done.
Thanks for the great video. I tried this on my Toro today and it locked the rear wheels and neither of them would spin when the self propelled was engaged. I'm wondering if I shimmed it too much and is keeping the pinions from spinning naturally. I removed the shims and everything is back to normal now. May try again with less washers.
Yeah it's kinda touchy. For the first 5 years I LOVED that Toro model. No issues, and it just worked great. Then the grinding started and it was downhill from there. Terrible drive system. I ditched the Toro a couple of yrs back.
My mower when I start cutting grass with it set on mulch sounds like a rock gets stuck in the blades? Then I have to stop and turn it back on. Is it maybe because the grass is long and I’m cutting it too low at 2 inches? Or maybe the blade itself.
Thanks for the video. I am having the same issue with the grinding noise from the rear wheels. I tried adjusting the traction cable, but it actually made it worse. It appears my issue is an alignment issue with the wheel and the gear pinion. What type/size washers did you use?
In between the black bracket/plate I used a combination of some washers I had in my work shop. On each side of the axle...for one of the bolts, I used a black hard rubber/plastic washer that was about 1/4" to 3/8" thick, and for the other bolt I used a couple of Fender Washers that say 1/4 x 1-1/4" on the package. You can get them at Home Depot and lots of other places. I had to put the Fender washers in my vice and use a drill to widen the diameter of the center hole a tiny bit cuz the bolt wouldn't quite fit through it. It was pretty easy to do.
The other thing you might also want to do (or even try this first), is see if you have any play on your axle where the pinion gear slides around a bit. I had lots of play with mine so I put on an extra fabric washer that I got at Home Depot to each side of the axle on the inside of the pinion gear. Not sure of the exact size, I just took the existing washer that was on there with me to the store and got a fabric washer that would fit on the axle. You could also buy a couple of the actual Toro thrust washers Part # 110-7191 for $3 a piece online.
I really think the combination of pushing out the front of the black bracket/front part of the rear wheels AND putting a couple extra washers on the axle is what fixed the grinding noise and drive system problem for me. It feels tight now, and I know the gears are lining up like they're supposed to be.
Hope that helps.
Dan
Tried this fix: It does temporarily stop the grinding noise, but grass catcher bag will no longer stay in place. This is due to the fact that the washers also spread the "U" shaped pieces that hold the bag assembly in place, are then too wide apart to catch and hold the bag in place. So as you mow the bag repeatedly falls off, spilling it's contents. This fix is not a happy repair.
A new wheel does work well, but not for very long: after a few hours the grinding is back. I searched the Toro site for their recommended repair; found no information. There is another video that suggests a different (wooden) shimming scheme, I suspect the same problem with the grass catcher bag for that one.
I have ordered new Toro pinion gears with new factory washers in hopes that those may shim out the pinion gear it's self into better mating with the wheel gear. I suspect the best idea is to try a metal gear in a new wheel, with a matching new pinion gear.
Nice video - that being said I don't like the idea of modifying the mower if it's not something that Toro can say, yes we know this is a problem and here's how you fix it...
So given that I did take the rear wheels off cleaned them, took the c-clamps and the little gear off and cleaned it. Put it all back together and the wheels no longer make the grinding sound BUT it still won't self propel, you lift the back up and the wheels are spinning without even pushing the lever down; put it on the ground and it's like it doesn't have enough thrust to move it forward... Thinking it might be the transmission box; this is a 2009 model.
Thanks. Glad you fixed the grinding noise. Interesting that just cleaning those parts off made the noise go away. I cleaned those parts too, several times and tried other things as well (including replacing the transmission), but nothing fixed my grinding noise until I added the washers. My mower is 7 years old and I was about to junk it, so modifying the mower without Toro's "approval" was the least of my worries. But I get your point. Not everyone will want to make a change like this. Although you can always just remove the washers. For me, I just wanted my mower fixed.
My mower does the same thing that you mentioned. If I lift up the back off the ground while the engine is running, the wheels will spin. And then when I put the backend down on the ground, the wheels stop spinning and the mower stays put until I push the traction control bar down...or in my case, just tap the control bar. Make sure your traction cable is fairly tight. Not too tight. But there shouldn't be much slack in the cable. You can adjust it to your taste. I've got my cable adjusted so I can just tap the bar and the mower will go forward as you can see from the video. Good luck.
typically its not the drive gears on the wheels that makes the grinding noise! its the transmission gears. i've actually replaced the gears and the bearings in the transmission case, and it did work for about 2 years...then the same grinding noise came back...the pinion gear in the case and bearing, failed again, so i replaced the entire axle and transmission, also the cable clamp under the platform, that makes the belt get tension, ....its been 5 years now and no more problems! i have the top o the line electric start blade belt model, where you can leave the mower in running position with out holding the engage handle!
Thanks for the post Karl. I initially thought it was the transmission so I replaced it. Made zero difference. That's when I discovered the issue with the wheel/drive gears, and how it could be fixed with a shim. I'm sure no 2 mowers have the same exact problem :) First cut of the season for me this Saturday, so hopefully it'll be running as good as it did when I put it away last fall.
Cheers!
Dan
Hey Karl, id the new axle/gear have a locking mechanism to prevent the axle from turning during shipping?
If you shim it out, the rod that holds the bag flap comes out, I think you may be better off bending that gold color metal plate towards the outside more to bring the mesh closer.
Just a thought; be careful not to add too many washers as the grass catcher may not attach well any longer :)
I bended the bracket to align the rear wheels. Put on new wheels as old plastic wheels were stripped out. Works like new. Thats how my toro dealer repairs them.
wrenfan I have about a 30 in crowbar with a flat end. Gently bend bracket to align. Use something like a yardstick to lay alongside rear and front wheels until you get rear wheels straight. Cant believe somebody hasnt done a video
Steve Wetzel I think maybe he means how did the plates get bent to start with. Wondering the same thing here.
@@rickeykeeton71 Don't think it was bent just toed in. Should have done this instead. ruclips.net/video/RVK_po7BRZs/видео.html
hi guys I have the same problem with my 20333 model but I have found there is a lot of play in the rear axle the bushes and plastic sleeve is well worn would the nut idea still work for me
Hey Liam. It's worth a shot. Sounds like you might have some worn out parts on your axle, but the nut or washer fix could still work for you. Hard to tell. Before you take anything apart, try wedging a 3/8" thick piece of wood or steel in between the gold bracket and the black bracket. That should tighten things up for you and you'll be able to see if the nut or washer fix will work for you.
My washer fix worked great for me for about one season, then the grinding noise came back again. When it did, I hammered in a wooden shim as noted above in between the gold bracket and black bracket (in between the wheel and the mower deck). That worked!!! I ran fine with the "shim fix" for the rest of the season. I only did it to one side (left side). That's all I needed. Some mowers might need the shim fix done to both sides. Old Mr. Wooden Shim did the trick for me. Good luck!
If you leave off the dust plate you can see where the gears line up . Replaced the gears and wheels last year same problem this spring . When the mower is used on a sloped lawn the rear wheels become towed in/ and gears are contacting at an angle to each other, even binding at times .Especially left rear . Use a long flathead pry bar or flathead screw driver after you take off the dust cover put the wheel back on and you can see the gear alignment or not when you bend out the gold wheel plate you will notice the binding and grinding smooths out. this is an inherent design flaw of metal fatigue and or flexing. the bushing in the retainer is probably also worn and doesnt help . It is my thinking that many a transmission has been replaced when it,s actually not the problem. Thats not to say the Tranny is never the problem . the gold wheel adjuster arm appears to be the culprit and shimming just angles the wheels back to 0 toe .Seems as if the wheel plate will probably continue to angle in on sloped lawns
I think you are spot on oldtimedrumcorps! Very well said. I've got a couple of shims on both sides of the mower now to push out the gold wheel plate. It works great for a while, and then like you said things change a bit and get mis-aligned and I start to hear the grinding again but I really only hear it when I'm turning sharply or going uphill. The mower still works fine, but that grinding noise is annoying.
Thinking of selling this mower and getting a new Toro WITHOUT a self propelled drive system. I only have a very small hill on the side of my house so my yard is essentially flat. I use my push mower to do the edges of the yards, around the trees, into some smaller tougher areas first....then I get on my riding mower to do the bulk of the yard. So when I use the Toro, I'm mostly turning a lot and going backwards-forwards to get into tight spots, and that's where the mower is most likely to grind. So it really makes sense for me to get a new "drive-less" mower with the bigger wheels in the back for easy turning.
I love how my Toro starts on the first pull every single time. I've taken good care of it and the engine runs great. So I'll most likely pick up another Toro "push" mower soon. I was wondering if I could modify my mower to put the larger wheels on the back to convert it to a "non drive" mower. I've removed the transmission before and used it once as a true push mower, but it was a lot of work. Not really designed to work that way... Not this model anyways.
Nice to see that your fix is working wrenfan. You are a lucky man! I kept having to wedge a shim in there in between the gold bracket (wheel adjuster arm), and it definitely helped the problem, but I was still experiencing some grinding noises especially when turning or going uphill, or when doing the old backward and forward thing to cut around trees, mailboxes, tough spots that I can't get to with my riding mower.
I sold my Toro last week. It was a tough decision because the Briggs and Stratton 190 cc engine ran superbly! Very strong engine. But in the big picture, I don't need a self propelled push mower for the edging I do with my lawn. (I use my riding lawnmower to do 90% of the lawn.) I bought a cheap new $250 Cub Cadet push mower that's 20 lbs lighter than the Toro. Very, very easy to maneuver around, backwards, turning, etc. Light as a feather and the drive system isn't fighting me when I turn or mow around shrubs and such....because there is no drive system. :) I do miss the self propelled rear wheel drive and the Personal Pace thing when going down a straight flat row, but I really don't do that very much with my push mower (i use it just to do the outer perimeter of my yard and around trees, etc.) and the Cub Cadet isn't too tough to push forward...I just have to go a little slower than I did w the Toro. So for the yard "edging" that I'm doing, I really like the "free wheeling" lighter Cub Cadet. No more gear grinding hassles using the Toro and if I can get 3 or 4 years out of the Cub Cadet, I'll be happy. Just couldn't see sinking any more $ into the Toro and I was DONE with that rear wheel drive system acting up on me. All the best!
one question im kinda confused with the washers, did you use the same washers for the pinion gear as you did with the bracket? or were all 3 different sizes?
The washers I used to push out the bracket were larger than the washer I added to the axle near the pinion gear. See my post below to abcleo63 for the washers I used for the bracket. The washer I added to the axle next to the pinion gear were smaller, about the size of a quarter. I just took off the existing washer from the axle and went to a hardware store to find a washer that closely matched. I found a washer that was called a "fabric washer" that was about the same size and put that on. If you want to add the exact replacement part, or just take a look at the size of the washer for the axle, just do a web search for "Toro part number 110-7191 Washer Thrust". They're about $1 a piece if you buy the exact Toro washer. I just found something close that worked. And so far, so good.
Hope that helps.
i had to visit my dad to help him with food shopping, we were both mechanics before so he lcukily had a tray of washers. i grabbed about 20 similar looking in size. found a perfect one for the pinion so it barely has any play in it. and then used shims behind the gold bracket to push it out. so far so good!
Yup. I think the combination of a shim, plus adding a washer onto the axle might be the key. If you think about it, when you put the shim on to push out the front of the rear wheel, your actually moving the back of the rear wheel closer to the mower deck. Then when you add the washer onto the axle behind the pinion gear, you're pushing the pinion gear closer to the wheel. So both things together will push the 2 gears closer together and make them line up better. Makes sense.
Stratodan 27 i did my first mow with it, so far worked great no problems. a tiny bit harder to push at times but i lifted the back up and the self propel was spinning the back tires like a race car. so thanks for the vid, definately helped me. did my lawn and my moms. even changed the oil, sharpened the blade, and got a new filter while i had the thing apart
Good deal. There are ton of variables at play as to why it might have been harder to push at times for you, but here a couple to think about if you haven't already. Are your wheels fairly new? Traction on the wheels could be an issue. If the tread on the wheels are ok, then the other thing to check is the tension on the throttle cable. Very simple to adjust the tension with the nut up by the handle. I've got my cable tension set so there's not much slack at all in the cable. And as you could see from the video, my mower starts to go forward with a very small amount of pushing.....one finger will do it. Sounds like you're on the right track.
my pushmower rear wheels are moving forward but not in reverse. They appear to be stuck/locked when trying to pull mower backwards they don't turn at all but they roll forward just fine. What would be the problem? l can't find any videos on that issue. It's NOT self propelled.
Hmmm. Surprised you said it's not self propelled. Seems strange that would happen to that kind of mower. I've never owned one that wasn't self propelled so hoping another viewer will chime in to help with your fix.
But the first thing I would do is get a cinder block or something to rest the back of the mower on so you can get a good look at each wheel and try to spin them backwards. You might be able to see what's blocking one or both wheels from spinning. Is there even an axle on the models that don't self propell? Next I'd probably remove the wheels to see what's going on. I can't imagine that would be a complicated or expensive fix.
Think mine just needs a gear inside the little transmission thats not to hard to fix long as it can come apart and isn't factory sealed shut
The problem you are encountering is caused by play in the axle. This is a direct result of wear in the bushing sleeve (part 108-9782). The front portion of the plastic bushing sleeve wears over time allowing play in the axle. You will need to completely disassemble the rear wheel assembly including the rear plate to get to the bushing sleeve. If you are lucky you can use a probe to grab the bushing sleeve and pull it out. If this is not possible you will need to remove bushing retainer and drive the old bushing out. The bushing retainer is an odd looking part that you may have trouble removing without the factory tool. It normally takes about 45 minutes to replace both bushings. You can look at the assembly for your particular application using the Toro master parts viewer at lookup3.toro.com/partdex/index.cfm?xCaller=Toro&lang=us_en.
THis would be great but I am unable to get the pinion gear off.
As I recall it wasn't easy. Took a bit of muscle and I think I had to use a reverse clamp device to free up the axle from the frame so the pinion gear could be removed. Never easy.
that's what happens when you sell out to home depot. now they get a premium at dealers for the "commercial" ones that use to be the standard.
man this is driving me INSANE. our wheels been clicking and popping most of the year and finally became unusable. took the transmission apart thinking a gear was bad it was all good. had to buy gasket sealer to close it back up. so i take the wheel off and see the gear is PLASTIC!!! and half chewed up! so i order a replacement, fit great. first flat lawn cut great rolled great. cut second lawn that had a small hill but only 6 swipes, started popping and sticking. i get dont and take it off. already started to chew down the plastic gears. now i dont know if i should just buy a whole new metal replacement wheel/pinion kit or not. ive read people say its the bushings, ive read people say the wheel bracket needs to be slightly bent, ive already dumped so much money into this stupid problem. i do notice the side thats fucked up (transmission side only) the pinion gear bar can be pushed in and out a little bit which im not sure is normal or not. i think im going to try what you did first and get some washers so that piece bends out and maybe a washer for the pinion as well and retry the half chewed wheel. luckily its only one side. i guess if the washers dont work ill try the metal wheel. also like you said when i look at the wheel gear it looks like the pinion is only barely touching it and causing it to shred the ends. almost as if the pinion needs to be bigger. or like you said pushed towards it more with a washer
Yep. I was ready to junk my Toro before I found this fix. Try wedging a thin piece of metal, wood, whatever in between the front of the rear wheel bracket and the mower deck to push out the front of the rear wheel just a little bit. Maybe 1/4" or so. You can try it on one side, then try it on the other, then try it on both rear wheels to see if that makes any difference for you. Try that before you take stuff apart and add washers like I did in the video. If the shims work and there's no more grinding, then yes, alignment is your problem like it was for me! You can then decide if you want to add the washers like I did and make more of a permanent fix. Good luck!
Stratodan 27 i fixed mine mostly thanks to this video, and tons of forum reading posts. i uploaded a video as well so that it hopefully helps others like yours. i ended up having to put a washer behind the pinion to make the pinion reach the gear. they then lined up, but still wasnt rotating good. so i took 2 painting mix sticks and used them as shims, i wedged them behind the gold piece and broke them off and it pushed it out enough to roll. i never saw it roll so good before. i also first did a test of just pushing the gold bracket out with a screwdriver while spinning the tire to get a idea of how far the shims had to push it out for it to rotate good. unfortunately i pulled a leg muscle lol so i have to wait a few days before i put the new oil in and blade and take it for a spin. but i think itll last for a while. even the old chewed up wheel worked
Cool. Glad you got it fixed!
HOW TO: Toro Personal Pace Rear Wheel Drive Grinding Repair
These components typically last about 4 - 5 years, depending on usage and conditions. Cost for the parts is about $80 - $100 (or less if you shop well). Repair time is about 1 hour with basic hand tools. Attempting to "southern engineer" a repair, will fail in a short period of time, so just do it right the first time. Mine is a #20333 and this is how I repaired it after trying (and wasting time and money) the "southern engineered" approach.
Order the following pieces:
2 ea - 104-8699 Bearing, Ball
2 ea - 108-9872 Bushing, Sleeve
2 ea - 115-4695 Wheel, Gear Assembly
2 ea - 115-4668 Gear, Pinion 12T
(ebay, amazon or your local Toro dealer should have these. Believe it or not, my local Toro dealer had some of the parts WAY cheaper than online, so SHOP!)
Remove rear wheels, drive gears, rear wheel plates.
Unscrew the retainer locknut and remove them from the plates
Press (or tap) the bearing and bushing assemblies out and press (or tap) new ones in.
Reinstall retainer locknut (with new bearing and bushings) into rear wheel plates
Reinstall rear wheel plates
Install new drive gears
Install new wheels.
Cheers!
Thanks for the post! Glad that worked for you. My no cost "bush" fix is working great for me right now. So until it fails, I'm not spending any more money on this 7 year old mower. The rear wheel drive is working like it was new. Can't do much better than that.
But I really appreciate you taking the time to list out the parts and provide instructions for replacing those parts. That probably is the "right" way to do it and that might be very helpful to some folks out there. Thanks!
First my apology (sincerely) if my reference to "southern engineering" offended anyone. I didn't post to start an internet argument or offend anyone. I'm not trolling. FWIW, I'm a Texan living in Texas. We've all done a field expedient, minimum budget based, band-aid fix (hopefully this will be PC enough). That said, I was a mechanic for a popular Lawn & Garden shop in Fort Worth (and over 35 years later they are still doing it). Then I was a quality control specialist for McDonough Power Equipment (a Snapper factory, you may have heard of Snapper?). Then I was a mechanic / service manager in the motorcycle and automotive industries for another 15 years (ASE Master and dozens of certifications). For the last 27 years, I have worked in Information Technology and am a Senior Engineer (Citrix / VMWare / Windows) for a very large global company. I bought my Toro PP mower (#20333) for $150 5 years ago. It was used and had been use twice. Last year the drive wheel grinding symptom began. It made it through the summer, getting progressively worse. I observed the slop in the rear wheel alignment, pulled a wheel and in the in interest of budget / time constraints, I ordered 2 wheels for $35 off Amazon (and they were delivered the SAME DAY!), installed the new wheels with a (spacer / shim) washer on the outside to presumably help the wheels remain straight and the gears not slip / skip. It worked. For 3 weeks. Then is started again, just barely skipping under the right circumstances. This time, doing the repair "right" (again, not trying to offend anyone), I opted to perform a full RCA (Root Cause Analysis). I discovered the rear wheel bearings were in very poor condition. Read that as the center race exhibited movement in all 3 axis. After removing the bearing, I also noted that the bushing in the bearing retainer housing (made of plastic) was nearly worn through. As you correctly indicated, this was due to a design issue. Namely, inexpensive bearings, with marginal sealing and lubrication, in addition to an axle support bushing made of PLASTIC had, over time, allowed the axle (and steel drive gear) to move out of the design limit for mesh with the PLASTIC rear wheel drive gear. This in turn results in skipping of gear engagement, and increased radial loads (away from the drive gear) of the rear wheel. Damage to all of the associated components continues until the unit no longer drives (reliably). I went to the local Toro dealer and had them pull the components I listed previously and checked them against my damaged ones. I replaced only the damaged components, noting that a number of them were actually cheaper than on Amazon (but not the wheels). After reassembly, I have noted no further issues for this year. Research of various forums (mainly Toro related) indicated this happens about every 4 to 5 years (IF it is repaired properly). And as far as paying $50 for a set of wheels, I can only suggest that you shop around a bit more. Here is a link that might save you money. $28.06 with free shipping (Prime or over $49) Toro 115-4695 PK2 8" Wheel Gear Assembly, 2-Pack www.amazon.com/Toro-115-4695-Wheel-Assembly-2-Pack/dp/B016NAKPBY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1480363309&sr=8-2&keywords=Toro+20333+rear+wheel
Dan, thanks for not being offended by my reference to "southern engineering". None was meant. BI only replied because I too experienced this, performed the same repair and the observed it fail again far too soon. As in, I felt like I had wasted $35 on a set of wheels, all because I was in a hurry and trying to save money. The fact was, I was half way (money / time) to doing it right and knowing it would last another 5 or so years. (FWIW, I had my last mower for 17 years and gave it away, still running, to a neighbor ki trying to start his own lawn business).
Outstanding explanation. I actually copied to a Word doc and dropped in my Toro Repair folder. I changed the wheels, but that left rear looks funky, like at a slight tilt downward. As far as the comment about Southern Engineering goes, no PC here. Anybody who grew up farming, ranching, or just plain poor, knows exactly what that means. I can relate. I've used bailing wire to reconnect a clutch pedal to the clutch cable. Thanks for your contribution!
This was a possible fix but please note when you add washers to straighten the wheels you also spread out the top of the bracket that holds the grass bag and eventually the bag will not stay in place! The fix was a good idea but not thought through.....yes, I did the fix and now I have to reverse it for the grass bag to stay on... :(... oh well,,
I never used the bag when I owned this mower. Always mulched. Sorry Bengt!
Well folks my washer fix lasted about 3 months. :(
I cut the grass the other day and the grinding noise came back. So I jammed a wooden shim about 3/8" thick in between the gold bracket and the black bracket mounted to the deck on one side only, and voila....it fixed the problem. I finished the whole yard with no grinding at all. Now we'll see how long this "fix" will last??? Good grief.
Oh well. I've about had it with this mower. The poor rear wheel traction design is really frustrating. I'll keep using it, and making little adjustments as needed from time to time to fix the grinding noise when it reappears - which I'm sure it will at some point. But I'm not sinking any more $ into this machine. Maybe next year I'll get a new mower.....and that one won't have any drive system on it. My yard is pretty flat so I don't really need the drive system. Just wanted to give an update...
Sorry to hear about your experience, Dan. For about $75 - $85 this could be fixed and would last MUCH longer. In fact, even if you had to do it once every 5 - 7 years (in your case), that would be a lot less than a new mower. These really are great mowers. :)
Pull the rear wheels & look at the wheel gears.
My new old project is a whole different mower but most are manly made the same way
Plus there's no other videos on my model so i was just watching some of these other ones
Here's my mower yardman 12av829c755
After my experience with the Toro Personal Pace Recycler I will never buy another Toro product. The drive system is a disaster designed by idiots!
Agreed. After band-aiding like this year after I finally sold mine a couple of summers ago. Very happy with a "no drive" cheap Cub Cadet light push mower for the yard edges. I jump on my riding mower to do the rest of the lawn. I have ZERO regrets selling the Toro. It's sad, cuz the engine was strong.
i have the same problem
yes put washers were the videos says, but i had to get a new wheel anyway because it was far to gone. i put a square on it like in the vid and it is way better now with the washers than without.
Another fix here ruclips.net/video/gYpW9t5bk6E/видео.html
Thanks Jim. I watched that video a few times long before I attempted any fix on my mower. That was not my problem. I bought a new cable and tightened it up snug, but it made no difference. I will say thought, that is one of the first things folks should check though when they start to have the grinding/slipping issue. If only it were that simple...
Here's the fix guys. ruclips.net/video/jMx-06vkYCI/видео.html
I watched that vid too while I was troubleshooting my grinding issue. Good info, but tightening the cable (new cable) didn't help with my mower. Good post though. Thanks
Thanks i tried that and it seemed to fix the problem, fingers crossed 🤞
Do NOT tip your mower up like that the gas will go from the carb to the air filter
You're probably right. But I only had a small amt of gas in there and the mower started right up when I was done with this project. I also put a piece of plastic wrap over the cap so the gas cap wouldn't leak when I tipped it. As I said though, you're probably right.
As counter intuitive as it may seem, flipping the handle out of the way and sitting the mower on the back edge IS THE CORRECT WAY to service the mower according to Toro.. TORO has video's online showing this is the suggested "safe" way to service the underside of the mower..
The design of the transmission in the honda VLADIMIR model, sucks. They should have used brass bushings with zerk fittings, so we can lubricate them periodically. Removing the transmission is a bitch, as you well know I flipped my pinions but I think I will put them back in the correct direction, because it just rolls to easily down hill for my tastes. The engine on my hrr216 is great but the electric start and the parable to speed features, sucks, spelled with capital letters.
If the wheel gear is plastic meshing with metal... see the problem? You must be an engineer of some sort.
Plastic gear is not the problem.
I agree with most of the comments. not pleased with toro's design. piss poor quality.
after reading all of these comments, I've come to the conclusion that toro built a real piece of junk. a trotline weight.
Strong engine and it does have some positives. But as far as the drive system goes, I would agree. Crap design. That's why I sold mine.
I have a 2004 and 2007 model Personal Pace Recycler, plastic wheels with METAL gears. I am holding on to these as long as I can. My Father has a 2009 Personal Pace Recycler with the redesigned deck and stupid wheels with PLASTIC gears. He has been through 3 sets of wheels in 9 years along with the whole blade clutch assembly because it broke in half when I was working on it due to it being a cheap cast "post metal" crap garbage. I'm tired of working on it to be fricking honest! The gears getting torn up has definitely accelerated in the past few years. I have even shimmed the wheel brackets as suggested.
@@Guillotines_For_GlobalistsPlastic was not the problem on mine. Did not shim but installed a "fixed spacer". Never failed again. studio.ruclips.net/user/videoRVK_po7BRZs/edit
THANK YOU SOOO MUCH... I couldn't believe this video when I first began watching it , so I said to myself, lets see where this is going....well, I took your advice, and installed new wheels and gears and added spacers roughly 3/16 of an inch, just like you said...and now it works like new. I had replaced the wheels and gears before , about a year ago but it made no difference, they only lasted a few days of mowing. Now it is actually better than new...you should send toro this video , and have them address it somehow...this was a manufacturers defect causing this . Unless it's built in to fail..lol...thanks again. I appreciate your taking the time to make this video and sharing it.
sorry for the late reply. Glad this worked for you! Hope it lasts. I ended up selling my Toro a couple of yrs ago. That grinding issue kept coming back, and back, and back.... All the best! Dan
@@stratodan27 I'm sorry to hear the issue returned. Every time I use mine now I think if this video and how good mine works. I spaced them around 1/4 of an inch maybe slightly less.. but it worked like new n
And I bought this in 2004. I needed the electric start model because at the time I had a herniated disk and thought I may not be able to pull start. That feature is also like new with the original battery. Anyway, thanks again.