I think root is a masterpiece. I was not impressed by my first game as I was confused by all that assimetry, which seemed to be unballanced to my untrained eyes. But it struck my curiosity and I learned how deep the game is. Now it's high in my top 10 list of all time.
I love it when games end up that way for me, and I also like having more of them in my collection so that I ultimately want less games since they're so replayable. -Daniel
You guys are cranking out great content! I've been binge watching your videos and it's great to see the improvements over such a short time. About to play our first 4 player game of root. Looking forward to seeing more of what you guys make.
Just found your reviews and love the depth and thoroughness of them. I also really appreciate that you guys had opposite takes on this game and Ashton’s was so helpful because I hear this game is so great from people who just love playing it but as a total newb, I’m not sure it’s for me
Cheers man! I've always heard that from our group, the first couple of games were sheer confusion. I just wasn't there for those games haha, so I was thrust in when everyone was already so comfortable with it. Check out my thoughts on digital if you wanna know more about root :D -Ashton
You need someone that knows how to teach you and prepare you for you to play the game. You should be instructed with the playstyles, advantages and disadvantages of each playing facitons before your first game. It would ease things out. Start with Cats with Eyries if you are new to the game. Find a local boardgame to try the game before buying. It should not be hard to find someone owned the game.
I mean, play any good and deep game against a group of veterans, and you're going to get trounced. In fact, I think it's great that the game actually has enough of a skill cap that better players can actually win more consistently. That's what makes a game like this enjoyable in the long run, rather than being just another "flavor of the month" that people get excited to play today, and move on to something new when the game has nothing left to offer. What I'm most curious to hear is how much your friends like that game, now that they've been playing it for a year?
I'm so glad you mentioned that the factions and heavy asymmetry made Root feel like 4 players experiencing 4 different games. I've played games like that, and now skip purchasing games with those qualities because the experience is too disconnected for me!
hahahahaha. It feels WAYY too disconnected for me too (Ashton), but I understand the appeal! The heavy asymmetry works better in 1v1 games for me -Ashton
It really seems like the board game version should be given some type of simplified variant. Something that holds the factions overall concept, but simplified so new comers can learn the game. Then, transitioning into the Full game would be more easier. However, learning that this has a videogame version on Steam really has me intrigued to check it out. Cus as a type of '4x' videogame its much simpler than trying to play say Total Warhammer.
Great review! Have you guys tried any of the GMT COIN games or Leder's early Vast game? COIN I think uses a similar engine with and both it and Vast have highly asymetric powers and ways to score and win. Vast player powers may be too different as Ashton pointed out in his conclusion.
Yeah, I think the designer of root actually said that COIN games were a major inspiration when making it. On a distant plain and fire in the lake are amazing.
My 2 gripes with Root are 1. There are too many expansions. Mostly mini expansions, but I'd i want to add several variants, there are too many different packages to buy that it's pretty confusing. 2. I think the rulebook sucks. The kickstart guide is great, but actually finding an explanation for pretty basic stuff is really hard. That said, i really love the game! It has created some of the best "please don't kill me. I'm so weak and not a threat, kill the birds instead" moments I've ever experienced in tabletop gaming.
You both mention liking asymmetry in games. Have you played the X-COM boardgame? It has a different interlinked game for each player, but it is cooperative, which lessens how had skill disparity is. It also have a real-time aspect which I think it did really well.
Fantastic review as always. I’d love to give this game a try. Unfortunately I don’t have another 3 people who would want to play it. I did get the app, although it’s hard to grok from that since I’ve never read the rules!
Yeah i've heard that Root digital doesnt have the ability to look at your faction mat, which sounds kinda whack since the mats are really good at telling you how they work -Daniel
Root is my favorite game and I have over 300. Been collecting for over ten years. Recently I’ve collected and upgraded my Root games. COVID is the only thing stopping my from gaming. My game group has been on hold all year. I just can’t take chances going into winter 2020
3 года назад
After so many games (more than 100 on Steam alone), I'm still hook. I like the other 4 factions. And no, we all play the same game and player interaction is great.
Hey Shelfside. Just want to say this Review got me to buy Root and all the expansions. Been enjoying the game for 6 months now. With Frosthaven out will you say it pushes out root in your game nights even if they scratch a different feel (coop) vs (competitive)
Frosthaven has encroached for sure, but me and the friends are always still itching to play Root, so while there is less Root happening the interest hasn't died down at all, probably because they scratch different itches like you said so it just depends on the mood at the table -Daniel
I would recommend the Underworld Expansion for sure, Riverfolk is cool and all but their factions are way less straightforward and bend the rules of the game quite a bit. Underworld also has new maps so you're getting so much more bang for your buck anyways.
Daniel - Great review! I have played Root many times and taught many of my friends how to play. I own a hard copy of all the expansions and have played on tabletop simulator version.... Now that I'm done listing my credentials.. I don't normally agree with most reviews, I find that most peoples critics have faulty logic or contradict themselves... that being said I actually agree 100% with everything you said. I know this was about the base game and not the expansions, but if you do one on the expansions... this might be something you notice. So I want to start by saying I love Root and everything within, so don't take my criticism to seriously The Lizard Cult I think the Lizard Cult might be one, if not my favorite faction. I think Leder games was very creative and ambitious with their design... that being said I think that their convert and Sanctify abilities are too good at crippling certain factions. Namely, Sanctify vs the Dutchy/Woodland Alliance and Convert vs the Woodland Alliance... maybe I'm wrong... I'd love to hear if anyone agrees or disagrees. Ashton- I disagree with your review. I get that's the way you feel and you are entitled to feel that way, but that complaint works for literally every semi complicated game ever. If you don't know how to play at an advanced level... you will always have less fun playing against advanced players. The A-symmetry doesn't really matter. The problem is how complex is the game... if it's complex ..then you have a lot to digest... Root is deceptively complex and it feels to me like you are saying that it wasn't as simple as you thought ... and that is your complaint. Which is valid but irrelevant imo... to make my point more clear. If you sat at a twilight Imperium v4 table for the first time, with little research because you assumed it was a simple game, and played against players who had all played 10+ sessions, I suspect you would have a very similar complaint.
Thank you for the great review. I really wanted to love this game as I love the art so much. But I bought the digital version just to try it out, much much cheaper. Now I know it is not for me.
oh man, I sidelined that because of tons of other projects that came up! But perhaps I will give another look once the marauder expansion comes :) -Ashton
Those ppl saying it’s bad and two games where enough lmfao I played 4 games and 3 of the 4 we did some stuff wrong. One of those ppl picked the lizard cult too, as someone that knows how to play I wouldn’t have let them (a newer player) play the lizard cult lol
UPDATE: Deleted my old post. I have no table-top gaming group now, because the last one barely was considered with the distinction, and they were fucking ass-holes... I now usually play solo these days.
Considering how well loved Root is and how big its kickstarters are, I'd probably consider it more of a "love it or hate it" game than a niche one, but here's to hoping it sticks with you! -Daniel
Don't the Reach ratings suggest that the factions are not balanced, and to avoid the game falling apart, you have to play certain factions at lower player counts?
While that's true, Root was built from the ground up with this in mind. If the game didn't incorporate reach and just told players to pick whatever factions, then there'd be a problem, but as it stands, Root hits its design intentions and balance very well (especially after erratas in later printings). -Daniel
Not with just the base game no, unfortunately, this is one of those games where expansions address this, because 2p only works with military factions which base only has 2 of (gets repetitive very quickly). Plus there's the clockwork expansion if you wanna throw in bots to better populate the board. -Daniel
TI4 is actually a much simpler game at its core- everyone just puts down command tokens on their turn, or does their strategy token. So while the game is longer, and there's technically more technologies for a messier board state, at its core its more simple (and less asymmetry). Hope this helps clear things up! We always find teaching TI4 to be a MUCH easier experience than Root. -Ashton
Has anyone played this game as well as Villainous? Villainous is my first asymmetrical game and my board game group really enjoys that aspect of it. I'm interested in getting Root but I don't know how it compares to Villainous.
So have you tried it? I have all Disney Villainous, and recently all Root content. Villainous is easier to teach and easier to grasp, you do your goal while trying to slow down your enemies by fating them. Root is wayyyyy more complex to teach, learn and it takes gamesss before probably even being able to strategize against other factions. Though if you get at least halfway through the 1st game, you basically have all the ups and pros of villainous, and you can remove/greatly reduce all cons of villainous. Ps. Battling with dice, 2 to 4x on one turn is so fun. 😁
It's an okay game that demands the dedication and investment of a great game. The game just isn't good enough to require a dozen plays before it finally starts becoming strategic because everybody has a grip on the factions.
I (Ashton) personally quite agree, although I may be giving it another chance sometime soon. I kept asking myself, what am I missing here? Why is not fun? So a couple of years later, I must return -Ashton
@@Shelfside I don't think you're missing something. It's just an all-in kind of game. Which is perfectly fine if that's what you're looking for but without putting in the time it's a very strategic game where you can't strategize because you don't really know your enemy. Anyway, just found your channel a couple of days ago. Great stuff!
@@TheOldMan-75 cheers! See ya around! But yeah, I was just entirely flabbergasted by the asymmetry in early playthroughs where I just could not counterplay. I mean, that type of bewilderment was fine when it came to MOBA/card game asymmetry, where I could play easily and not worry about teach/learn as much. But Root being a board game that required a lot of dedication to already get people together was a bummer. But then I also did not have the benefit of starting from scratch like everyone else, and got thrown in against a bunch of veterans. Aaah! Cheers again -Ashton
That intro was intense, I screamed while watching it
I think root is a masterpiece. I was not impressed by my first game as I was confused by all that assimetry, which seemed to be unballanced to my untrained eyes. But it struck my curiosity and I learned how deep the game is. Now it's high in my top 10 list of all time.
I love it when games end up that way for me, and I also like having more of them in my collection so that I ultimately want less games since they're so replayable.
-Daniel
That intro was unreal. Cant wait to see a Root gameplay from you guys and see how you execute strategies.
You guys are cranking out great content! I've been binge watching your videos and it's great to see the improvements over such a short time. About to play our first 4 player game of root. Looking forward to seeing more of what you guys make.
Root is my favorite game to mansplain
Just found your reviews and love the depth and thoroughness of them. I also really appreciate that you guys had opposite takes on this game and Ashton’s was so helpful because I hear this game is so great from people who just love playing it but as a total newb, I’m not sure it’s for me
Cheers man! I've always heard that from our group, the first couple of games were sheer confusion. I just wasn't there for those games haha, so I was thrust in when everyone was already so comfortable with it. Check out my thoughts on digital if you wanna know more about root :D -Ashton
You need someone that knows how to teach you and prepare you for you to play the game. You should be instructed with the playstyles, advantages and disadvantages of each playing facitons before your first game. It would ease things out. Start with Cats with Eyries if you are new to the game. Find a local boardgame to try the game before buying. It should not be hard to find someone owned the game.
sicc intro that was spicyyyy
This is a very detailed review of the game and really shows off the game well. Well done!
This review has solidified that I have the same taste in board games as Daniel. I really resonate with almost everything he says
The meowing in the intro freaked out my cat haha. 10/10
ahaha thanks man, glad that you and your cat got a kick out of it :) -Ashton
I mean, play any good and deep game against a group of veterans, and you're going to get trounced. In fact, I think it's great that the game actually has enough of a skill cap that better players can actually win more consistently. That's what makes a game like this enjoyable in the long run, rather than being just another "flavor of the month" that people get excited to play today, and move on to something new when the game has nothing left to offer.
What I'm most curious to hear is how much your friends like that game, now that they've been playing it for a year?
I'm a new subscriber to your channel! I like how well articulated both of you are! I hope you both keep it up!
I think your reviews are great, but I recommend having a stabilizer for the camera when you zoom in to show things like cards' suits etc.
thanks for the feedback! We got a stabilizer and should definitely use it more, future vids will be less shaky!
This is the best Root review hands down. Appreciate the time you put into creating this video!
thank you! Daniel is a huge root fan, hope to see more root on the channel :) -Ashton
10/10 intro mate
I'm so glad you mentioned that the factions and heavy asymmetry made Root feel like 4 players experiencing 4 different games. I've played games like that, and now skip purchasing games with those qualities because the experience is too disconnected for me!
hahahahaha. It feels WAYY too disconnected for me too (Ashton), but I understand the appeal! The heavy asymmetry works better in 1v1 games for me -Ashton
Wow a 10/10 from Daniel, was not expecting that!
ahaha it surprised me as well! I thought it would be a 9 from him, even after playing with him all of these times. -Ashton
Root has ruined most other dudes on a board war games for me I love it that much
-Daniel
Thank you for this video!! It was really helpful
cheers! Glad it helped :D -Ashton
It really seems like the board game version should be given some type of simplified variant. Something that holds the factions overall concept, but simplified so new comers can learn the game. Then, transitioning into the Full game would be more easier.
However, learning that this has a videogame version on Steam really has me intrigued to check it out. Cus as a type of '4x' videogame its much simpler than trying to play say Total Warhammer.
Great review! Have you guys tried any of the GMT COIN games or Leder's early Vast game? COIN I think uses a similar engine with and both it and Vast have highly asymetric powers and ways to score and win. Vast player powers may be too different as Ashton pointed out in his conclusion.
Yeah, I think the designer of root actually said that COIN games were a major inspiration when making it. On a distant plain and fire in the lake are amazing.
What a great review and what a great channel! You are awesome!
My 2 gripes with Root are
1. There are too many expansions. Mostly mini expansions, but I'd i want to add several variants, there are too many different packages to buy that it's pretty confusing.
2. I think the rulebook sucks. The kickstart guide is great, but actually finding an explanation for pretty basic stuff is really hard.
That said, i really love the game! It has created some of the best "please don't kill me. I'm so weak and not a threat, kill the birds instead" moments I've ever experienced in tabletop gaming.
It definitely has an issue with being grandfathered in at this point. I can't even imagine what it must be like trying to get into it nowadays
-Daniel
I love the concept of this game but I had one of my worst gaming experiences trying to play this with my family
i dont understand
how did you manage to make the pieces alive in the intro????
green screen and lots of editing magic from Daniel! -Ashton
You both mention liking asymmetry in games.
Have you played the X-COM boardgame? It has a different interlinked game for each player, but it is cooperative, which lessens how had skill disparity is.
It also have a real-time aspect which I think it did really well.
Fantastic review as always. I’d love to give this game a try. Unfortunately I don’t have another 3 people who would want to play it. I did get the app, although it’s hard to grok from that since I’ve never read the rules!
Yeah i've heard that Root digital doesnt have the ability to look at your faction mat, which sounds kinda whack since the mats are really good at telling you how they work
-Daniel
Root is my favorite game and I have over 300. Been collecting for over ten years. Recently I’ve collected and upgraded my Root games. COVID is the only thing stopping my from gaming. My game group has been on hold all year. I just can’t take chances going into winter 2020
After so many games (more than 100 on Steam alone), I'm still hook. I like the other 4 factions. And no, we all play the same game and player interaction is great.
Just had my first game on Sunday and this game is just amazing but I get why some might not like it either way awesome vid guys!
nice!
Hey Shelfside. Just want to say this Review got me to buy Root and all the expansions. Been enjoying the game for 6 months now.
With Frosthaven out will you say it pushes out root in your game nights even if they scratch a different feel (coop) vs (competitive)
Frosthaven has encroached for sure, but me and the friends are always still itching to play Root, so while there is less Root happening the interest hasn't died down at all, probably because they scratch different itches like you said so it just depends on the mood at the table
-Daniel
I own and love the game. But its biggest flaw is the high expaination time for the factions.
The Vagabond truly takes the cake when it comes to having long explanation times.
Great and hilarious video
Great review, Will you also make a Chaos in the old world review soon ? Seems like a great game
I would love to but ashton sold it lmao
-Daniel
"So that's how Root works!"
which expansion should i get ?
I would recommend the Underworld Expansion for sure, Riverfolk is cool and all but their factions are way less straightforward and bend the rules of the game quite a bit. Underworld also has new maps so you're getting so much more bang for your buck anyways.
@@Shelfside Beep! The proper answer is "both". :-)
Daniel - Great review! I have played Root many times and taught many of my friends how to play. I own a hard copy of all the expansions and have played on tabletop simulator version.... Now that I'm done listing my credentials..
I don't normally agree with most reviews, I find that most peoples critics have faulty logic or contradict themselves... that being said I actually agree 100% with everything you said.
I know this was about the base game and not the expansions, but if you do one on the expansions... this might be something you notice.
So I want to start by saying I love Root and everything within, so don't take my criticism to seriously
The Lizard Cult
I think the Lizard Cult might be one, if not my favorite faction. I think Leder games was very creative and ambitious with their design... that being said I think that their convert and Sanctify abilities are too good at crippling certain factions. Namely, Sanctify vs the Dutchy/Woodland Alliance and Convert vs the Woodland Alliance... maybe I'm wrong... I'd love to hear if anyone agrees or disagrees.
Ashton- I disagree with your review. I get that's the way you feel and you are entitled to feel that way, but that complaint works for literally every semi complicated game ever. If you don't know how to play at an advanced level... you will always have less fun playing against advanced players. The A-symmetry doesn't really matter. The problem is how complex is the game... if it's complex ..then you have a lot to digest... Root is deceptively complex and it feels to me like you are saying that it wasn't as simple as you thought ... and that is your complaint. Which is valid but irrelevant imo... to make my point more clear. If you sat at a twilight Imperium v4 table for the first time, with little research because you assumed it was a simple game, and played against players who had all played 10+ sessions, I suspect you would have a very similar complaint.
Thank you for the great review. I really wanted to love this game as I love the art so much. But I bought the digital version just to try it out, much much cheaper. Now I know it is not for me.
that's a great idea! I still need to try digital here ahahahaha... one day... -Ashton
YOU ARE BOTH AWESOME! ❤❤❤
Here i am still waiting for your review on the digital app 😁
oh man, I sidelined that because of tons of other projects that came up! But perhaps I will give another look once the marauder expansion comes :) -Ashton
@@Shelfside no worries, i enjoy the content you guys bring out
I refuse to get it until they have corvid conspiracy that's basically all I play in Root anymore haha
-Daniel
Those ppl saying it’s bad and two games where enough lmfao I played 4 games and 3 of the 4 we did some stuff wrong. One of those ppl picked the lizard cult too, as someone that knows how to play I wouldn’t have let them (a newer player) play the lizard cult lol
UPDATE: Deleted my old post. I have no table-top gaming group now, because the last one barely was considered with the distinction, and they were fucking ass-holes... I now usually play solo these days.
Considering how well loved Root is and how big its kickstarters are, I'd probably consider it more of a "love it or hate it" game than a niche one, but here's to hoping it sticks with you!
-Daniel
Don't the Reach ratings suggest that the factions are not balanced, and to avoid the game falling apart, you have to play certain factions at lower player counts?
While that's true, Root was built from the ground up with this in mind. If the game didn't incorporate reach and just told players to pick whatever factions, then there'd be a problem, but as it stands, Root hits its design intentions and balance very well (especially after erratas in later printings).
-Daniel
@@Shelfside Yes it's great that they are transparent about the issue, and provide guidance to resolve it :)
Hey guys, would you still recommend Root for 2 players only? Thanks!
Not with just the base game no, unfortunately, this is one of those games where expansions address this, because 2p only works with military factions which base only has 2 of (gets repetitive very quickly). Plus there's the clockwork expansion if you wanna throw in bots to better populate the board.
-Daniel
Root was too complicated, but then points to TI4 as being a game he loves....
TI4 is actually a much simpler game at its core- everyone just puts down command tokens on their turn, or does their strategy token. So while the game is longer, and there's technically more technologies for a messier board state, at its core its more simple (and less asymmetry). Hope this helps clear things up! We always find teaching TI4 to be a MUCH easier experience than Root. -Ashton
Did you try unmatched?
yep, we got a review and a marathon vid of it! -Ashton
My biggest complain about root is How fast It ends. I prefer longer games.
It’s a reskinned version of a serious hardcore game about the war in Afghanistan .
Has anyone played this game as well as Villainous? Villainous is my first asymmetrical game and my board game group really enjoys that aspect of it. I'm interested in getting Root but I don't know how it compares to Villainous.
So have you tried it?
I have all Disney Villainous, and recently all Root content. Villainous is easier to teach and easier to grasp, you do your goal while trying to slow down your enemies by fating them.
Root is wayyyyy more complex to teach, learn and it takes gamesss before probably even being able to strategize against other factions. Though if you get at least halfway through the 1st game, you basically have all the ups and pros of villainous, and you can remove/greatly reduce all cons of villainous.
Ps. Battling with dice, 2 to 4x on one turn is so fun. 😁
I like the game, but I think that woodland alliance is overpowered
Get this on Steam. Much better visuals and matchmaking contributes to a better overall gameplay experience.
you should consider Rising Sun
we're definitely considering it as a giant review down the line -Ashton
seems great but the theme turns me off.
I think if you are going to censor the word "shit" then I don't think you should be using it, as it's a bit distracting. Otherwise great video :D
The intro screams furry war.
Can’t say the same for the two new factions
It's an okay game that demands the dedication and investment of a great game. The game just isn't good enough to require a dozen plays before it finally starts becoming strategic because everybody has a grip on the factions.
I (Ashton) personally quite agree, although I may be giving it another chance sometime soon. I kept asking myself, what am I missing here? Why is not fun? So a couple of years later, I must return -Ashton
@@Shelfside I don't think you're missing something. It's just an all-in kind of game. Which is perfectly fine if that's what you're looking for but without putting in the time it's a very strategic game where you can't strategize because you don't really know your enemy.
Anyway, just found your channel a couple of days ago. Great stuff!
@@TheOldMan-75 cheers! See ya around!
But yeah, I was just entirely flabbergasted by the asymmetry in early playthroughs where I just could not counterplay. I mean, that type of bewilderment was fine when it came to MOBA/card game asymmetry, where I could play easily and not worry about teach/learn as much. But Root being a board game that required a lot of dedication to already get people together was a bummer. But then I also did not have the benefit of starting from scratch like everyone else, and got thrown in against a bunch of veterans. Aaah! Cheers again -Ashton
Great review, but for the love of god. Either swear and keep it in or don't swear. That bleep is as annoying as possible.