2019 Austrian Grand Prix | Did Max Verstappen Deserve A Penalty?
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Jolyon Palmer gives a detailed analysis of the battle between Charles Leclerc and Max Verstappen, explains why Mercedes' challenge wilted, and applauds Carlos Sainz's brilliant drive.
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#F1 #AustrianGP
Austria is a great example of minimalism! 10 corners, shortest track, no stupid coloured lines like in France and yet very interesting races past few years
10 corners but still one of the greatest tracks on the calendar
speed tracks more then minimalist... pure speed, so is monza so was hockenheim..
10 corners *
@@danielevans607 Thanks, fixed that :)
You have to understand that France is the country of art mon gars..
I love how Palmer basically says on F1's own channel that FIA are inconsistent.
@SirMangoMantango He is so getting fired
True 😂
@Pixel Man hahah
True. And I like his reasoning it's not about somehow speeding/overshooting into the middle of the turn to force the opponent off the track but about being quicker with the space GIVEN. Not being faster by taking over the space and forcing the other one onto the grass or whatever. Awesome! I don't think being strict on that will reduce racing, as Max suggests, but will serve for proper racing and not this dirty unsporty behaviour. I mean Verstappen could overtake everybody else cleanly, why not Leclerc.
@Southpaw At least you understand the difference. It makes a refreshing change at times to read comments on here from people who actually have a clue about F1.
Palmer transformed from a joke to sort of a community hero, really like this guy.
rocmike --- He was never a joke, knows his stuff, got further in racing than you have.
@@Liofa73 relax man, it wasnt a front but you have to admit that they are few driver which got roasted that much by f1 community in the past.
Just like his father, and Brundle too?
Grosjean was worse at a time and hes still driving, jolyon may have just not have it for f1 but does that really make him llook bad? Anyway love these series
Joke? He was never a joke.
Amazing race followed by an amazing analysis by Palmer.
I absolutely love this series, keep it up.
Akshat Shah keep what? Ahah this guy is just telling us what FIA wants to ... 😂
@@giorgineparidze9741 you're kidding, right? He's gone against the judgements of FIA more than once.
@@devanshukathrecha like in canada?
@@pipebomb3659 no, but a few other older penalties. Canada penalty was greatly justified in his analysis, since he has the throttle data with him.
@@pipebomb3659 Canada was a good call. Going against that is basically saying wanting Hamilton to be shoved into wall at dangerously high speeds.
Who else was waiting for palmer 🤔😀👍!?
Yihaa.. Let's go!
KaLLe FoRniA did yall 0:42 max tyre was over the yellow line but didn’t get a penalty but mag got the penalty
@@jazlichelseaboyslol3228 yeah i only just noticed that too, maybe they let it go because he got a bad start anyway?
@@rickdubbink The day was for Verstappen to win. He got away with a victory. Fortune favours the brave.
On many days after the race, I was already asking, "WHERE IS PALMERR?"
@@jazlichelseaboyslol3228 Oversight on the stewards part, perhaps. They're just people after all.
Then again, they'd well over 80 minutes to notice it, but didn't.
Nobody did, otherwise the stewards would've been notified by any other team or official.
Totally agree with the opinion regarding running other drivers wide. If you're mostly ahead it's okay but not if the other car is completely alongside.
@@rishiishere. 🧂🧂
You ram people,you shouldn't express your opinion.I am just kidding !
No, it isn't ok to drive others off the track, period.
Than the need to build the tracks also with gravel. As with tarmec the driver will be side by side always than
Than you get only drs overtakes. You like it eyy
Next analysis request:
2017 Italian gp for nostalgia! 🔥🚬
LOL I see what you're trying to do there 😊👌
Karma
You mean Italian GP *2018*
@@Euclides287 no 2017. He means Alonso´s: Where is Palmer?
KARMA
You know you've had a bad start if even Gasly overtakes you
You then also know you had an awesome race because you lapped Gasly twice.
@@LogiForce86 oh yeah that happened too, pretty rough
@@LogiForce86 he didn't lap him twice he passed him twice
@@essayedgar ah yes, that is what I wanted to say. My bad.
@@LogiForce86 lololol
FIA: +5 seconds for Palmer for agreeing with us.
What a yoke. The 5 seconds.
(I'm sure no one made this joke before).
@@LasherTimora You can stick to the original phrase
"5 seconds is a yoke!"
FIA: waaaaaaaa 5 seconds penalty for Palmer for saying that FIA is inconsistent
Palmer: simply starts talking 5 seconds later the video starts
@@sethhu20 It is the original phrase, Alonso kept ranting about that penalty for several laps :D
Jolyon you killing it every week with your analysis. Great explanations, followed by previous examples of other races, and most importantly down to the laymen terminology. My hats off to you Doctor Palmer.
I really enjoy these videos. Palmer is spot on every time! 👏👏
Nope. He was PRO Vettel penalty. He also said Vettel didn't do anything special in Monaco. He's a biased turd.
Firemarioflower aaaaah poooor ferrari fan
He's a good analyser for sure.. 👍
@eoe123321 Down to opinion.
@@wazda6488 *Vettel fan
At least the FIA are consistent.
Consistently inconsistent
What inconsistent then?
They hate Ferrari and Ricciardo. Next.
@@sixfive9638 LOL =)).
@@sixfive9638 ok lol
Ferrari fans when a Ferrari driver makes a mistake: if that's a penalty, I'm gonna stop watching F1
Ferrari fans when someone else makes a mistake: if that's not a penalty I'm gonna stop watching f1
Also Apply to Hamilton fans.
The ferrari team itself, if the rules dont apply to us were gonna leave
You calls max' move a "mistake"?
@@Jimmy-lm2eg nah bruh we don't have time to hate on penalties. Just accept them and move on! Gang gang!
@@valpodesideromontoya2097 no, I'm talking overall
I absolutely LOVE Jolyon's analysis. -- He separates what HE thinks from what he can reasonably prove.
Bravo!
First Video Of Jolyon's Review: *is a joke right?*
Now: Nice Video Jolyon. Keep it up!
It's so much more fun without Mercedes dominating the event
"You mean like, forever???"
Most appropriate and hilarious response by Norris.
Oh yes my weekly highlight of F1 channel.
He deserved that win but not a penalty
100% agree Jolyon. The racing on the lap before the incident is exactly what I want to see more of. Not drivers trying to 'own' the corner so they can rightfully squeeze the other guy off the track.
Exactly!
If you don't protect the inside line you don't own the corner it is simple in racing whether its Karting or F1, the only reason there it happened the firs time is because Max was too kind he should have shut the door, if Leclerc wants to take a wide line so he can sweep around with better traction then he needs to cut back he doesn't get to be left space around the outside, you don't get to have your cake and eat it.. learn how racing works.
@@brzy1188 Exactly. Leclerc knew Verstappen was on the right and would exit on the left... so Leclerc decides to exit on the left not once but twice. Even though it worked the first time, both times it was a mistake. Also, it was very obvious that Verstappen wouldn't leave room a second time after what happened the first time. Leclerc is very fast but he simply wasn't thinking.
@@brzy1188 But you still don't own the corner the moment you attacked on the inside, and there is still a car alongside, no matter what. No car is responsible to move out of the way for another car passing except when being lapped. The moment both cars have grip to stay on their line, they are racing into and throughout the corner. This all happened in two seconds maybe and it's difficult enough for them both already to react properly in the heat of the moment. I don't claim that Charles owned the corner, but he has a right to stay on one line he chose and not be bumped out of the way. The driver that is passing has the responsibility to complete the pass safely. Like Max did when he was "too kind" and he certainly didn't own the corner himself when a car is still alongside. The preferred lines in racing work like that in general as you explained, but really they might work differently from corner to corner depending on the geometry. Who you are racing against matters, and depends if you can expect him to leave you space or not. The positions and speeds of cars approaching the corner matter too. And this corner has a bit more of traction advantage than usual going all the way on the outside when being alongside another car because the corner is so tight sharp on the inside. And again, this is all happening very quickly. Max got away easily with no penalty mainly because there was no damage to the cars or DNF for Leclerc. Instead, Leclerc finished second as he probably would have without all this because of his worn out tires.
@@felixseven8958 Leclerc has absolutely no right to try and force his way around the outside of that turn and think he can just park it on the exit apex for maximum traction, as I said you don't get to have your cake and eat it, if you want to protect your exit and right to the apex then you protect the inside line and make Max attempt to go around you, it's racing 101, only reason it's controversial is because Max gave him too much room on the first move and Leclerc thought he was going to let him just do the same thing again, two different moves nobody was in the wrong it was a racing incident. If there was gravel traps or a wall at the apex instead of a runoff do you really think Leclerc would have given up the inside line thinking he can swoop around the outside for better traction? No, he wouldn't have and he would have protected the corner properly, end of story.
2:48 notice how Verstappen outbrakes Bottas, let's go of the brake to let Bottas cross the DRS detection line first so Verstappen get's DRS on the next straight, and then hits the brake again to out brake him for the corner. THAT is racecraft!
Think youi'll find it wasn't anything as exciting as that, more like "I can't defend today, might as well let him pass before he crashes into me".
@@clansome or he came up with a three-dimensional strategy for Max to reach Leclerc and them two crash it out
@@abcxyz123 Well stranger things have happened.
@abcxyz ... honestly think james told him to let max pass so they can take away points from ferrari
@@Alumnikiid there's always a risk radio convos are made public. That would've been controversy
Excellent analysis... especially that observation about "it's his corner" statement that people use to justify running a driver off road
Agreed. Some of the best analysis highlighting context on each case....then still coming to the conclusion that there are indeed inconsistencies between calls.
Does the regulations even mention "someone's corner"?
@@MrLarsson92 it says that if you are ahead you have the right to take your racing line, but people just abuse this rule to run people off the road
Leclerc perposely did that in order to force a penalty. He wasnt defending but wide open. Hell his car was even half of the track.
@@Kr4zYm0f0 "you always must leave the space" leclerc gave verstappen the inside with the intent on getting the drive off the corner for the strait. Verstappen out braked himself, hit leclerc and drove him off the track
In the wise words of Fernando Alonso...
"Palmer Cut The Chicken!"
I still think Verstappen is at fault here. If you look carefully at the onboard, he clearly misses the apex and Leclerc is there attempting to squeeze him just that tiny bit. He straightens the car out when he gets as close as he can without touching Max's car but then Max just shoves Leclerc off the circuit.
Max couldn't have done that if Leclerc hadn't left the door WIDE OPEN, Max was fully justified to go a little longer and close out the space. Leclerc should have conceded
@tinus tussengas Orange piece of sh*t, you shut up.
@@loveisblindness1352 You still have to leave the room and Max bumping Leclerc off was intentional just as the onboard steering position shows.
EVERYONE now listen what Palmer has to say at 9:07. We can discuss for years if the stewards should have given a penalty or not but Palmer answers the real question: What is real racing?!
Let's just imagine for a while what would have happened if say a Williams in some daring move to unlap himself had nudged Max off the track at that corner, would Max's response been "oh great racing move," Red Bulls response "oh nothing wrong with that move" and no penalty from the judges. Like FECK! Max would have gone berserk as would his team and William would have had so many grid place penalties they would have had to start a lap down next race, why no penalties, no one else will say it but I will, it was because of the 'Orange' army waiting outside to rip the Austrian circuit apart if the did give penalties, they bottled it. So now green flag for Max next time he will just push someone else in the same manner and say, "well you said it was Ok! "
So now we return to the days of Prost bashing Senna off the track to seal his championship. Then a year later Senna returning the favour and smashing Prost to gain the same thing on the very first corner, if that's what everyone is calling great racing I want no part of it. Max drove a great race, there was no need to do this he could easily have got the position in a much more civilised way later.
I cant believe you make me defend Verstappen, but of course one would be mad if a lapped car divebombs you and rams into you. The lapped car has no right to do a daring move onto the lead car, that forces them off track
Well if Williams were fighting at the front it would be similar. In their current state, this type of thing is more likely to happen if Max is lapping one of their cars, at which point they should be heavily penalized. You do't hit cars that are lapping you.
Also, all drivers and teams complain when they are the disadvantaged, and claim innocence when they are advantaged. This is not just Red Bull and Max.
After Vettel was penalized, yes he deserved a penalty too. Consistency is needed when dishing out these penalties, or stop giving penalties to drivers.
In my opinion inconsistency is better than making consistently bad choices. I don't think Vettel deserved a penalty but I'd rather one than both, also could mean that the stewards are becoming more lenient which I think is a good thing
Vettel went off the track it is a totally different situation
You can't just say he deserves a penalty just because Vettel got a penalty. The incidents are completely different and incomparable.
Please give us 'Grill the Grid' 2019 💯👌
yes good idee
@@reiniervogelzang9271 that is an excellent ''idee''
Fast Beat idee???!!! Hahahahaha i deedn’t know that it’s possible like?? Hahahahaha lol 😝 what a belta
idée is french
@@flashmcqueenLeGOAT ouais peut être le gars est français...on sait jamais.
2021: "Rio Haryanto's Analysis"
2022: Felipe Nasr's Analysis
funny how forcing off the track is defended as pure racing now, while the evidence shows that the exact opposite is true. jolyon proves it here aswell, if you notice his subtle political comments. no idea why i still bother to watch this theatre, might aswell switch to wwe. ridiculous.
Yup. Its never sporting to run someone off course. The best drivers have aggressive styles though. Msc, sen, ham, ver. Just sucks they can be dirty sometimes too.
@@cheesyriceo4 yes, and while we love the show (dont we), they still need to be punished. there need to be clear cut red lines. any watering down in alleged support of the show will cause the exact opposite to happen. would love to witness a real sporting show finally again!
love how somehow commented and tried to argue against me, and it didnt even need me to reply and refute. seems like they noticed themselves they didnt make sense and deleted the comment lol
@@luximare5572 it wasnt your comment.
youre completely wrong. he couldnt "easily" have conceded the position, because he was alongside. you can only reasonably cut to the inside line when youre at most with your wing alongside.
with your logic, the car in front can just drive left right and center as they wish, the car behind should just go the other way? then well have no overtaking at all, because cunning drivers will just look at the mirror and cut you off all the time. theres a reason you can only change your line on the straights once (except if youre mv in baku) and the same logic applies in the corners. racing line yes, defending corners yes, but when youre alongside, you are alongside, and it must stay this way on track.
also, i might have conceded youre point with the kmag and hulk incident. but in this case, you realise they actually banged wheels? leclerc was on line, as mv opened the steering. if youre saying he wasnt forced off the track, youre saying he should have slammed on the brakes just out of a corner in a formula 1 race? no logic applied
@@luximare5572 ok interesting, do you have proof f1 deleted your comment? or reason why you would have been "banned"?
"concede the position by braking" if thats your definition of racing, fine. for me, that should only need to happen when there are three cars coming together, or before corners, not after them.
"Leclerc did neither, despite knowing where Max was in the corner." akin to the laps before, where max correctly left the space. so why, suddenly, should leclerc conede the position by braking (?) because "oh he might cut me off"?
"I agree it wasn't a clean move from Max, but it was avoidable by both." i think thats telling. you agree it wasnt clean, so it must be dirty, so there should have been a penalty?! and to say it was avoidable by both is just plainly ridiculous. hitler may not have been clean, but ww2 certainly was avoidable by the allies too, they just could have surrendered, eh?
"And weaving to block the driver behind has nothing to do with this." it absolutely has, because they all boil down to the fact that the car in front, even if it only is by a metre, can always force the car behind off the track/brake/anything else that will prevent overtaking. just try out online racing if you may. there have to be spaces, on straights and in corners alike. otherwise we will ban overtaking in the first place, and racing altogether. they realised this for the straights, they have to realise it for the corners aswell (even it actually is in the rulebooks already, if not stated very clearly)
"I cannot understand him continuing to defend whilst off-track" dont understand you here. he wasnt off track when he was defending, when he was offtrack he couldnt and didnt defend anymore. care to explain?
"Max also didn't expect him to do so, which is why he didn't try to steer as hard as he could." im sorry, just not true. of course he expected him to do so, as he did the laps before, which is why he opened the steering on purpose. to think that max didnt expect charles to be there is either naive or disingenuous. or something else
"And yes, the fact is he could have avoided going off track, which means he was not "forced"." again, i think you need to look at the definition of "forced". by your definition, ww2 wasnt forced, neither were the opium wars, etc. to cut back to f1, rosberg/hamilton wasnt forced either, hamilton could have just gone the long way around eh? drivers are rightly punished when they have four wheels off track. theres a reason why the track is limited by big fat white lines. you shouldnt be going off there. to say that cars can rightfully be made to take avoiding action like that is detrimental to the very idea of racing.
while i agree that pointless remarks without the backing of arguments are especially prevalent on the internet, needless to say here in the yt comment sections, i dont see a reason why i shouldnt be able to say this when my reasoned arguments arrive at that point. suppose after some rigorous calculations i arrive at the conclusion that 1+1=3 is wrong, why should i not be able to say that this is illogical? surely, i might be wrong, e.g. it is me to say that 1+1=3, but then again i will not be convinced by your conclusion, but by the reasoning and arguments you present. and you should be free to do that.
I just recall the go-kart clip from max and Leclerc, where Leclerc just goes 'racing indicident'. Now max only have to reply 'now we are even, score has been settled'. But serious, its getting kinda sad people still going over a penalty yes/no, while this race was the _exact_ thing F1 needed at this point. No train, no Mercedes, no drops, full on head to head driving across the entire field.
At 0:42, isn't Max right front positioned after the yellow grid slot line? Could you clarify the rules concerning this in a future video? Thanks for the analysis Jolyon, truly appreciated. 👍
@formula 1 how come RUclips keeps crashing when I try to watch your videos??!
Pastor Maldonado my screen starts spinning violently when I try to watch RUclips
Same here.
oh my god lmao
@Red Rum i think he could laugh at you all the same. or at your paycheck for that matter lmao
Kvyat told me, his phone was launched like a torpedo when he tried to watch any video from this channel
I am supporter of ferrari but Max deserved that massively. I mean the win
I'm also a big fan of Leclerc but he just didn't defend that move from Verstappen well enough... So well done.
The problem isn’t that Max is getting a win, its really good and deserved one but the problem is how FIA can judge this kind of situations . Why do they apply the rules only when they want too ..
I personally think it deserved a penalty. It wasn't good sportsmanship to push that way, when he could have gone tighter in, and it does look like he could have avoided it but chose not to. It was an overly "aggressive overtake".
It wasn't overly aggressive, it was normal hard racing (for people who aren't pussies). It wasn't good sportsmanship for Leclerc to whine about how Verstappen needed to get a penalty, instead of just getting good himself and actually winning on pace. Leclerc prefers to win because of politics, Verstappen because of skill.
ruclips.net/video/L42H4vkbHYc/видео.html
@@Tauva pushing someone off the track is "skill" best joke i have heard today mate
No wall, gravel or grass doesn't mean you can't back off when you've been had.
@@Tauva you just watch racing huh?
It wasnt max's intention to run lec off the track, it was his intention to close the door to avoid a redo of the previous lap. He could have steered tighter but he left lec enough space to back off the throttle, And attack at another corner. Which lec didnt do.
No my friend.He knew exactly what he was doing.Leclerc was alongside him he shouldnt back off they are side by side each driver keeps their line and they continue racing verstappen just wanted an easy way out of the battle palmer's analysis was spot on.
@@manosfrantzas5860 max was, marginally. But still ahead.
No and nor did Vettel.
Apples and oranges.
K R it’s not though, is it ? Only way those two cases are different, is Hamilton was a second back, hadn’t come close to overtaking before, and there was no contact. This incident is much much worse, because there is intention (you can argue Vettel was struggling to control his car, here Verstappen is in full control). Personally I think neither should’ve been penalized, Max was dirty but nothing hugely wrong, Leclerc was asking for it. But if Vettel is penalized, there is no way Verstappen shouldn’t be.
Really sucked to see Kimi drop so far back after such an amazing start..
That was always going to happen in an Alfa
Matthew Thomas Yea I know but it still hurts
If the rule is intentionally forcing another driver off the track, isn’t that what Verstappen did? He added throttle and closed steering to gain further width on exit, which forced Leclerc off the track.
9:07 This is a sentiment I've held for years. The rules should be amended specifically state that if the outside car's front wheel is ahead of the inside car's rear wheel by corner exit, then the inside driver must leave a cars width. It doesn't matter if they out brake themselves or pick up understeer, they must leave a cars width. If they don't then enforce so stringently that if they do get a move done by forcing a driver off the track, the team will tell them to give the position back, before they get a penalty, and try again. Then, we'll get some proper racing rather than wheel to wheel at corner entrance and bumper cars at the exit.
I absolutely agree, braking late is already 100% the fault of the driver, and usually so is understeer which you can feel through the wheel, so if the driver is already in control of that it doesn't make sense making those things an excuse. Oversteers as well, that's just being greedy on the throttle usually.
He didnt force someone off. Verstappen took a line, and Leclerc didnt understand that. Leclerc should have slown down because Max was already a head of him in the turn. Verstappen couldnt go slower because he was already in the apex but Charles wasnt. All in all he deserves a win not a penalty.
Yeah leclerc should have stopped his car and let him pass lol 🤣🤣
༆Rohaɴ᠉Krɨsh facts
Genuine question for Palmer incoming:
I feel like "just about acceptable" shouldn't cut it as determining weather a move that changed the winner of the race was legitimate. Regardless of whether Max did it intentionally or not, the penalty should be the same, if he's made a "mistake" and forced the leading car off the track and gained that position by doing so, you don't let that stick, same as you wouldn't let him get away with it if it was deliberate.
If you make a mistake and run wide on a corner, and rejoin later on in the track and gain positions, then you take a penalty for it despite it being a mistake if you locked up or something. So if Max ran too wide, missed the apex completely (which kinda shows he aimed to go that deep since he didnt even try to turn in for the apex) and forced Leclerc off the track with his "mistake", why no penalty?
It took the stewards 3 hours to decide. For something to be a penalty it needs to be clear cut. If they’re debating “is it isn’t it” then it’s not plain and simple.
If you’re debating for even 10 minutes then it’s not a penalty. I think penalties should only be given when something is a blatant cheat or rule break. If not, let them continue.
If the rule is you cant force another driver off the track, and Max literally bumped Leclerc clear of the track limits, how is that not clear cut? The situation was black and white in my eyes.
Snuggles because Leclarc conceded the corner. He didn’t even try to defend. With how poorly he took it he would have run slightly off the track even if Max wasn’t there.
You can’t say “come on through” and then change your mind. If he wanted to defend that place who would have put his car on the inside. Plenty of drivers have weighed in on this and basically said the same thing “you can’t defend a corner from the outside”.
Eq_NightGlider_ i agree. There was a lot to be said for a penalty but I think it was fair racing and I agree if Leclerc would’ve taken the corner the way he did he would’ve gone of track in any case even without another driver on the inside of him. And also I just think it was an amazing race. At least they were racing.
late response incoming:
That's actually a very interesting point. Furthemore, the example you brought up with a driver making mistake, running wide but as he rejoined gained positions, which should be penalised, is, if I remember it well, exactly what happened at France this year - Perez made a mistake, ran wide at the corner and had to take an "escape route" which he did and rejoined the track by it, but he gained positions that way which led to him recieving a penalty because, at the end, he gained an advantage, even tho it may have not been in his intentions.
if Max kept his steering angle, kept the inside line, and left a reasonable amount of space for Leclerc, I would still have respected that. But he did not. He deliberately missed his apex by miles, to run Leclerc extremely wide, but Leclerc proved he had the ability to stay that wide and yet continue to challenge staying side by side. Verstappen simply unwound his steering, and aimed his car for the left cub on exit, when Leclerc was already there, and made the ungentlemanly decision to bump Leclerc off. But what made me lose all respect for this driver, is that he radioed in, and immediately accused Leclerc of reckless driving....which we all can see, Leclerc kept it tight, but fair.
contrast this to what Niki Lauda said of James Hunt, that he had complete trust in his driving, and had no problems racing side by side with James into a corner.
contrast this to that amazing battle between Gilles Villeneuve and Rene Arnoux...bumping wheel to wheel, but never deliberate, and keeping it fair.
But because of what the stewards have decided, I think we can expect more crashgate tactics like what happened between Prost and Senna in 88 and 89. No one likes a cheat
89 and 90, but otherwise you are right.
Almost two years later. Max is doing okay with the steering. Don't worry about Max... ;)
Thank you for doing this!! You make best race Analysis.
Right or wrong, I thought Leclerc made an ass of himself on the podium.
Predictions for british grandprix
1:Ham
2: Ver
3: Lec
Pretty sure Norris did the exact same overtake on Kimi, lap 14. Kimi lifted and conceded, Leclerc didn't. It's racing, it's what we tune in for. Leclerc will win plenty of Grand Prix yet!
That's not the racing i wanna see😑
Racing is going side by side for one or a few corners fighting for the position and not just brake late push the other driver off the track and saying it was "your" corner
Because then everyone could just brake to late get his nose in front of the other car and say he was in front and has corner and was allowed to push him off🤦♂️
@@failix4223 I get what you are saying - but it isn't that easy, is it? Leclerc was free to do the same overtake on the next lap to gain back his position, but ultimately the red bull was just faster at that point of the race
@@nodidog max was faster but if he's not fast enough to overtake leclerc fair he's still not allowed to force him off the track
@@failix4223 I would've loved if they gave each other space on every corner - the rules would need to change for that to happen though. I'm sure max would've still gotten past before the race was over either way, but we'll never know
@@nodidog yeah i think he would have got him
But I'm still a bit angry that vettel got a penalty in canada and max didn't in austria🤷🏻♂️😅
I always use Austria 2019, to show idiots who think, LH “intentionally”punted off MV in sliverstone.
“Who wanna talk purposely missing an apex of a corner, don’t talk when MV has does the same and worse in Austria 2019” 🤷🏼♂️😅
*ALL THE TIME YOU HAVE THE LEAVE THE SPACE* says Alonso, lol Alonso, i'm laughing now...
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂👍👍
Agree, pushing someone off the track shouldn't be allowed in any way.
It's an easy way to win a fight and robs the viewers of a nice scrap to watch.
Idk how Verstappen's hand movements are not clearly pushing Leclerc off the track. Palmer should've gone into detail if he wanted to make that argument. Verstappen is clearly unwinding the steering, running into Leclerc.
So Palmer is now another Didnt-Quite-Make-It-As-An-F1-Driver TV Broadcaster/Commentator?
Petrolhead Heaven Yea... Whats wrong with that?
Petrolhead Heaven Yeah, I don't know why this channel loves him so much he's just a left out F1 driver why all of a sudden he's an expert analist of F1 I don't know. Clearly if he can't make it to F1 I don't know if he's qualified to make these analisys.
@@mtinfinity7845 you need to pay attention to what he says. He gives wonderful explanations to race incidents. Go back and watch his analysis of the daniil kvyat incident. Really good analysis when compared to other commentators.
AttilatheThrilla thank you!!!
Internet troll I know, I'm just giving him shit for loosing his F1 seat and seeing if Palmer fans get triggered 😁
12:25 Lando vs Kimi is almost the same as Max vs Leclerc. Look how much spaces he leaves
Was thinking the same. Kimi yielded to Lando. Leclerc should have yielded to Max too. I understand why he didn't, being in the lead for his first win. But he should have. The Rosberg Hamilton incident is not the same, since Nico was defending the inside line. And didn't even attempt to make the corner.
@@rishiishere. that's because Kimi probably tried a switchback. Like Charles should have done. I understand what your saying, and there is a case to be made for both sides. But Max was in front (if only a few centimetres) thanks to Charles leaving the inside line wide open. He brought himself into that position, and should have yielded. I agree with the stewards decision in saying not one driver was predominantly to blame for the contact. I think neither of them having a flat tyre or something like that probably was a thing the stewards took into account too.
@@robertaugustijn1157 If Verstappen got a flat for that Leclerc sure as hell wouldn't have taken the blame for that.
@@petercapkovic1827 we'll never know
@@robertaugustijn1157 No, not the same. See that Lando had full lock on steering when turning. Kimi lives space, Lando goes for it then makes full steering to take the corner. Pure racing! Ver goes for space, Lec earns outside move Ver makes only half steering and robs Lec of his outside move. Why yield the position when u got excellent grip and speed to retake position !? Lando fair, Ver extremely unfair.
I think it's unfair to fully put the responsibility with the attacker. As a defender it's too easy to leave the door open, not defend (like Leclerc did) and get yourself into a position where you can claim you didn't have space. The risk and responsibility are 100% with the attacking party and with the rules being so strictly applied, overtaking is discouraged.
In the past, drivers knew when they were beat. A big indicator was that they ran out of space and either had to get off the throttle or hit the gravel. The fact that Leclerc was on the *outside* as the defending party, shows that he never bothered to defend. Had he defended the inside or the middle, he would never have had ran out of space and it would have been Verstappen who would have to yield.
Refusing to defend, and knowingly getting yourself into a position where you can claim foul on your opponent when you get overtaken is the F1 equivalent of diving in football. I don't think anyone wants to hear drivers or fans go full on Grosjean all the time, but it's the precedent the FIA has set in recent times. I really hope F1 doesn't turn into football and that this decision is a turnaround after the Vettel and Ricciardo decisions.
Are drivers allowed to run others off? If the rules say no, why do people keep bringing up Leclerc going to the outside? I't like saying i could murder someone cause they are retarded. You just don't run people off, just like you just don't kill people, simple
Jolyon,
Please put your opinion out here sooner in future: your opinion is worth reading first!
Nah, I am all up for him to think as much on a race as he needs to so that he brings in the best analysis he can. Especially with the race like this one with a very questionable overtake at the end (not the Vettel on Ham one ofc, that was fine).
He's a pundit on BBC radio.
Why not show Vettel's overtake on Hamilton last year, that was an example of good overtaking in turn 3
And he did it again this year on Norris
Yes i loved these overtakes, no chance to defend. He did what Rosberg failed to do...
I think what vet did was to hang ham to dry last year, but vers actually unwinded his steering to bang lec’s wheel and pushed him off, it feels like there should’ve been a penalty.
Somehow I feel like the Ferraris are cursed(vettel’s engine issue in Q3, Leclerc in Bahrain etc)and got a bit of unfair treatment from the FIA.
@@hinlam253 Absolutely false judgement. You can not compare both overtakes because they are both different. You have to be side by side at the end of the straight to overtake like Vettel. Max was far behind if you compare it but what he did was nothing wrong. Leclerc could have stayed on the outside a little bit more then get on the power earlier than Max and finish the job at the entry of Turn 4. So that's neither of the drivers fault since Leclerc could chose to either try his luck on the outside and stay with Max or be like Kimi and give a little bit of time. That is the reason why no penaltys needed since Max did not actually ran him out of the track. But yeah I still think FIA's decision in Canada was unfair %100. By the way I'm a Tifosi.
@@hinlam253 Depending on how would you think of cursed, but really it comes down to reliability of the car. If Mercedes or Red Bull can run a perfect car in Bahrain or in Austria, why Ferrari can't. They simply just don't have the reliability in their engine (or whatever components) compared to their rivals. In terms of FIA investigations, and reference to Jolyon's analysis, it's only in this Austrain Grand Prix where the treatment over Charles is unfair and inconsistent, and that's it (Vettel is more to blame on the case in Canada)
@@gaxiey The only thing is, in my opinion, if Max wanted to overtake Leclerc and not allow him to get a good exit out of turn 3, he should have done it the way Vettel did it on Hamilton last year and Norris this year. That way Leclerc couldn't have steered until Max decide to steer, but what Max did was trying to do the same, but in the middle of the track, while Leclerc was on the outside preparing for a good exit. Max's error enabled Leclerc to be side by side with him, and Verstappen pushed him wide.
Penalty for What? Leclerc left the door open, he didn't defended the corner.
5 second penalty for still talking about penaltys, this is starting to look like football crying and asking for penaltys.
Lucky you are so right! IT almost starts to look like racing F1 becomes a sport that is decided by Marshalls instead of racing drivers who take risks as they are supposed to
If the refs are consistent then the players know what to expect. VET streightens the wheel to cover HAM = pen. VES streightens wheel to cover LEC = no pen.
@@racebug6134 I think that's what annoys me the most about f1 inconsistency in the rules
@@GODzbleach it would be fixed imo if the panel wasn't diferent people for each race
Mr. Palmer - LATE!! was waiting for your analysis. As usual spot ON!!I agree.... Better racing will happen when drivers aren't allowed to force each other off the road. We could have had a back and forth at every corner. Vestapen should have got the penalty.
100%
Yeah let's reward keeping the inside open with a penalty.
No way this was a penalty, just bad driving from Lecrerc losing his first position to a car he also lapped two laps earlier.
6:40 I they've [stewards] probably called it just about right. So actually, you seem to disagree with mr. Palmer...
@@lauriedepaurie Palmer final thought is Vestappen "got away with it" but Nico was penalised for his move on Lewis at that very same corner. Vestappen drove him off the road. All it showed me was Vestappen skill level. They were side by side, heck LeClerc was ahead for most of it. Also if you look at the race that was not the racing line Vestappen took through that corner all race. He wanted to win. I don't blame him. But, what goes around comes around.
@@oritsegbenanna1211 I don't think Max could have steered in earlier either way because he braked very, very late. Besides, he gave Leclerc much more space. When Rosberg did it to Hamilton he kept his steering wheel straight for an absurd amount of time and plowed into him like a truck.
The fact that Palmer is doing these amazing analyses reminds me that - even though he might not have been up there with the greatest - every single driver in F1 belongs to the best racing drivers in the world! Let's not forget that next time someone's underperforming, they're all still badass! Except Stroll maybe...
I don't agree with Palmer. He says he don't like Max "running off" Leclerc. Palmer seems to forget that circuits these days have very wide run off areas. THAT is the problem - causing all the stupid and unnecessary debate. There are NO run off's at the old school circuit Suzuka . So if the Leclerc - Verstappen moment happened there - there would be no tarmac for Leclerc left and he would have been forced to except the position loss. This is why FIA (thank God) ruled in Max favor. Lelclerc left the door wide open for Max to come into the corner - whereas in the previous corners Leclerc defended the inside line and Max has no chance.
It doesn't matter if there's a run-off or not, you don't drive people off the track, period. The rule that says so doesn't have any "ifs" and "buts".
Ferrari's lower end drive out of corners is phenominal, no wonder Max didn't leave him space.
They both tried to be clever dicks. But one's more of a dick than the other.
@@StefanVeenstra lecrerc was clear and fair
Skullcs4ever ha funnyyyy
It's Leclerc's fault not defending the inside in the first place
@@aslamnurfikri7640 following your logic.. it's verstappens fault screwing up his start.
What about MAX position on start? No penalty?
was searching for that comment
What do you mean?
Max's position was just within the margin. Magnussen was not. If you check the stills you can see Kevin being a fraction more above the yellow line then Max. It's not much, but it was enough to trigger the Drive Through penalty.
He's where he should be.. Magnussen rolled out of it.
Charles turned in on him. Footage is there. 50/50 racing incident
Leclerc even opened his steering in the corner he had no space to go around the outside and max has to leave a bit of space
So thats why palmer isn't in F1 anymore, cause he's to nice....
If another driver had done it to max you wouldn't be saying that. Palmer is bang on as always.
7:17
Also Verstappen vs Rosberg in Germany 2016 was similar.
No, it wasn't. No full lock for Rosberg, and no curved corner.
Rosberg vs Vertappen and Rosberg vs Hamilton were similar. Both badly executed and obvious to see he missed the corner on purpose
So we can push drivers off the circuit. Stewards made it so everyone will do it now. Its not racing, its boxing.
If people think its ok, then thats really sad.
What are we doing? Racing or Ping Pong? ruclips.net/video/UCsSQ1UctwY/видео.html
0:42 Why did Kevin get penalized for driving over the yellow line, while max didnt?
FIA inconsistencies
If there was grass or gravel next to the road, the outside driver would have lifted and try to cross......so thanks for all the asphalt run-offs F1.....
So what, just stop if someone else comes ahead of you and then slows you down?
@@rishiishere. maybe, just maybe and this is just a thought.. Leclerc would not be stupid enough to keep on the outside because he actually wanted to finish the race? If you really think that with a gravel trap on the outside Leclerc would've kept going on the outside you don't rate him very high. If he was that stupid he would not have been where he is today. O i SeE vErStApPeN iS AlOnGsIdE, mIgHt Aa WeLl CrAsH
@@rishiishere. One corner later, I think turn 4, there actually is gravel, and also a lot of overtakes. Were drivers 'pushed of' over there? No, because the drivers who were being overtaken, would cross back to try to get a better exit, instead of sticking it around the outside and ending up in the gravel.
@@rishiishere. Of course it's not the same corner, but crossing back at turn 3 is very effective too, and if there was gravel, Charles would've done that, and re-overtake max on the straight. All I'm saying is that gravel fixes the 'he pushed me off the track' issue mostly.
I just keep wondering...all the cars have a camera, why are there no images from LeClerc onboard? Only Max is shown where i'm convinced that LeClerc turns in on Max. You can see that clearly in the shots from the side and in front.
Same as with Stroll an dVettel in Malaysia 2017. Protecting Ferrari. At first everyone burned Stroll for what happened. Then a few weeks or months I don't remember later Vettel's onboard shows up and you can clearly see he cut off Stroll. Stroll kept his line, but got shit on, while it was Vettel's fault. If you see Leclerc you can see he is turning in, straightning out, then turning in again so yes he did turn in on Max.
Because that will no GO with the narrative of creating controversy over Verstappen aggressiveness. Bias F1 shit in short words!
LEC has to turn in at some point to stay on the track. LEC was alongside VES but VES unwinded the wheel to force LEC off.
@@bigpete7951 So you expect LEC to keep his wheel streight and go off track on his own? LEC at some point has to turn to stay on track, VES didn't leave enough space, simple as that. VES unwinded the wheel to create contact.
@@racebug6134 people fail to see that leclerc tried to keep his position while there was no space. You have to leave space when you are side by side. They weren't and due to the tarmac leclerc pulled up next to verstappen and then complained. In the old days there would've been grass and lecl would've done what kimi did..
Robert Doornbos of the Dutch TV had a good point. These kinds of situations between Verstappen and Leclerc are caused by the huge run-off areas. Back when it was still grass and/or gravel nobody would have dreamt of sticking their car on the outside through that turn. They would have backed off.
No Penalty? It's a YOKE!
A YOKE!!!!!
Penalty!!! ... i know he wants to say it but he can’t!!!!!..MaFIA
I my opinion, he pushed him off the track, as he was able to take that corner much tighter on previous attempts.
Forza Ferrstappen
No concrete evidence? How about the same evidence that was used against Vettel in Canada? How about steering lock and throttle application? How about clearly being able to see that car beside him? Come on, the move was intentional but they didn't want to spoil the Honda party. It's more political than sport related.
I agree with you 100%. Verstappen turns in late, goes wide in the middle of the corner, touches his rival and goes away with it. Don't like penalties, but if you penalize Vettel for what happened in Canada, you must do the same with Verstappen here. As you said, they didn't want to spoil the fun
They didn’t penalize Seb for exactly the same move in Silverstone ‘17. The Canada incident is totally different, you seriously can’t compare these two. And no, I would not penalize him in Canada, but as I said, it was completely different.
@@jirizahradnik9365 It's not the same incident but the stewards should have used the same tools they used there like steering angle and throttle application. This would prove the move was deliberate and pushing a car off the circuit is illegal. Verstappen knew it and hoped to get away with it which is exactly what happened. Consistency is not a word in the stewards' book and they keep reminding us that.
@@jirizahradnik9365 OFC is different. Seb was penalized for MUCH LESS. I talk about Seb's incident because it was recent, not because it's a similar move.
anikilator1980 But did you want a penalty for Seb in Canada? If not, can’t you just get over one really bad decision and hope that from now on the stewards are going to let them race more freely AND to be more consistent at the same time?
I think in F1, Verstappens move was on the limit. If Leclerc has lasting damage to his car or race, then it has to be a penalty.
Harry Sanjaya did you watch the video, Max has forced him off the track. Proper racing is giving to opposing driver enough space to fight back.
Agreed, all the time you have to leave a space.
Why you are hiding Charles cam ???
Exactly!
Leclerc onboard camera? try to find one. NONE available. FIA knows this and if a penalty was taken over Max then comes revision, and they would find out that it was Leclerc who made contact.
Fits the narrative of "Dirty max, Poor Charles" well isn't?
He purposely took a more central line rather than the usual shortest way round the bend.
He knew that if he took the line he did, Leclec would have to go off the road ~ AND THAT IS TYPICAL SCHUMACHERESQUE OF VERSTAPPEN.
It was disgusting, unfair and went unpunished.
He did deliberately force him off, but I think that's more hard racing than unfair driving
It's called racecraft not dirty driving
Mr. Palmer, you got it absolutely right my friend. Your analyses are so good. Thank you for that.
SO, MAgnussen gets penalty for being over yellow line at start, MAX doesn't get one. Great job FIA, great job, CONSISTENCY at HIGHEST LEVEL.
This should've been penalized simply cuz they're side by side and max leaves no space for Charles but the most telling of him deserving a penalty is his own call to defence; ''he turned in on me''. Max you've got 2-3 metres of track to your right and squeeze him off what else you expect. And don't come to me with that ''charles had to back off'' bullshit. Clearly Palmer knows max deserved a penalty there yet words it cryptically so the fans don't hate on him
I like the review but Leclerc was behind when he gave more throttle in the corner and was never to make it, so Leclerc should have back out just as much as Max should have leave room for him....so race incident.
He made it on the previous lap. Why wouldn’t he make it now ? Only thing different is how Verstappen behaved. First time out of 70 laps he didn’t go to the apex on that corner. I would prefer it being a racing incident, with Leclerc being naive. But you can’t penalize Vettel two races back and then not penalize this.
If you break point is different than everything changes, to start it was Leclerc that made the mistake of not closing the inside that left Max the room of late braking en go deep in the corner on that point Leclerc could only back off and nothing more.
@@Mcorpmike 100% agree. If your brake point is different, everything changes. But crucially, Verstappen's brake point does not change. Look at the video again, 0.25 speed if you must. He brakes at the same time, in pretty much exactly the same spot. I'd actually be inclined to think he braked later on the previous lap than here.
Why would he back off when they're wheel to wheel ?? The previous lap he won the drive battle in the exact same position, and ended up ahead. And here, if Verstappen doesn't push him wide, I'm pretty sure Leclerc successfully defends his position.
Yes Leclerc was naive, and should have closed the door, but he cannot be blamed for Verstappen not leaving him space. Verstappen doesn't go deep, he goes wide. It's not a braking issue, it's an "he pushed him off the track issue".
KillCamEditoR i respect youre opion but i just can’t agree with it, we can say what we want but we wil not agree so discussing will be pointless. I think 🤔
@@Mcorpmike Fine by me, just having a chat...
Funny that they allow things like this for Verstappen but they want Vettel to turn with tires full of grass.. FIA works against Ferrari : confirmed. If i had any doubts now i don't have
2019: Vettel and Hamilton
2029: Verstappen and Leclerc
vettel is 4th in the wdc
Gustavo Faria, so, he’s the fourth best? No
you're in denial if you think he's fighting for the championship this year
I say that's a cheeky move, but if that's allowed then everyone is allowed to do it too.
Ahmad Danial Basaruddin agree with you but Im sure if vettel does same to Lewis will be Fucking 10 second penalty and they would judge it as it was a dangerous move 😂
Penalty not needed but a rude move nonetheless.
The fact that it was even investigated just shows how fucking soft the sport is atm.
Super pleased with all of the fans reaction, showing clearly that we WANT hard racing.
Meh... if Vettel was penalized in Canada, so should Verstappen to be honest for consistency.
My personal opinion is that both shouldn’t have been penalized.
I think that Verstappen can't get the position without doing that wide movement... i don't like that one but its part of the game... it shows the real character of this driver... not a gentleman... but a punishment after the Vettel incident I think that will blow the audience... so the decision was political, not technical
Palmer have a great "media presence" . i really enjoyed his analysis!
Bunch of crybabies. Only one that was a penalty from this video was the one with rosberg and hamilton. The rest is all about racing and the loser having the wrong side of the track or not willing to defend the position.
I don’t know if it’s fair or not but imagine the shitstorm we’d have if MV was given a penalty...😏
Yeah the little down syndrome douche is the only pride of the netherland, we would have never heard the end of it.
Oh i'm sure the FIA could handled that. there were only 30.000 dutch MV fans in Austria. no biggie. 2 buff security guards got that shit handled ... atleast for a few seconds :)
@@romteb Netherland and their new kids with turbo....
You probably missed the Red Madness this week? Ferrari fans went mental...
romteb it’s the Netherlands with an ‘s’. Maybe a bit of Down’s yourself? Or just plain stupid?
0:42 and Magnussen got a penalty because he was out of position? Where's Max' ?
Don't be stupid, Magnussen rolled out of his box.
Finally we see some overtakes by Sainz
I love how Leclerc now adapted to the "rough way" that suddenly was allowed! Just take a look here: ruclips.net/video/rO6QbTZEuCk/видео.html
One of my utmost favourite youtubers :-)
Maybe the stewards need to look at the g force of the offending car.
And the rules need to state the car must allow racing room for another car and if they dont and its proven they are under 1 g of force or there is no mechanical fault they will be penalised. This will stop people just lazily breaking or stering wide in an easy corner.
I love what he says around 9:40.
Pure racing just isn't pushing another driver of the track. Look at his onboard at Spa! That's the racing we want to see
Verstappen is that driver who always do magics and overdrive his car to the point where he can get away with it in case he commits a penalty-worth move because no one can do what he does at this time and the FIA and the fans want to see him keep entertaining us and motivated even more, so they don't want to take away that from him. Even Christian Horner knows that when Ricciardo was his teammate and he had many clashes with Ricciardo without being warned afterwards.