F1 Driving Conduct: Should you be penalised for running your opponent wide?
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2021
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Ooooh we did get a lot of penalties in the Austrian Grand Prix, didn't we? And no less than three instances of drivers attempting overtakes around the outside, only to be run out of room. Is this fair? Let's have a look.
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Thank you manscaped for making this video possible. However thats where it ends. Look up reviews for their trimmers. Plenty said.
WHOMST?!
What about the Charles last week when he touched piere gasly ?
Is it OK to push driver off road racing in a straight line? So, why is OK in a corner?
That's a stupid argument. 4:14 If they enforce this rule. That you can't, just shunt anyone you want, off the track. The lead drivers, would take the best line for the situation. If that is outside, then they'd be outside. If it's inside, then they'd take the inside. But one of the factors in the equation, should never be. This guys might force me of the track, and potential crash my car. Just to hold the position. He's too slow to keep otherwise. So if you just enforce the rule. People will just take the best line. You know the risk, you know the risk. They all know they could die. People doing things that make that more likely. Isn't anymore acceptable. Just because everyone knows it.
As one very wise man once said "all the time you have to leave-a the space"
He never said the second "the", but yes.
@@TheVeyron623 vettel did when he mock quoted him in the driver press debreif later ;p
Okay? Understood?
I was literally just going to comment exactly that
Space FOR WHAT!?
Fernando Alonso had something to say about this topic years ago.
All the time you have to leave da space
Only George Russell and Kimi learned to leave da space so far
@@luscious-liz4277 maybe that’s why Nando is such a George fanboy
And than a couple of years later he didn't leave the space
@@luscious-liz4277 Only for Kimi to drive into Vettel for no reason
Jolyon Palmer actually had a good point in his analysis - we want to see side by side, wheel to wheel racing and pushing someone off on the outside stops that from happening
100% agree. I never see this stuff in WEC. You see some tight wheel to wheel battles and they're awesome to watch cuz the battles go on and on as they come back at eachother after each pass.
I’m worried over-penalizing would discourage defending. Or drivers could start making dumb passes they expect to be pushed off from if the car they’re overtaking holds their racing line (like these passes) and assist teammates from behind drivers- touching the defender, giving the defender a penalty, or forcing defender off line.
The opposite could be said, if you don't let them race, then they wont even try to pass, to the racings demise.
Not to mention it stops being a race if you can just be like "oh you were on the outside you should have known better". Because then every driver in front just FORCES you to take the outside every time and pushes you wide.
Anyone arguing against these penalties is merely showing they are too stupid to understand the rules, likely because they lack any form of a brain at all.
@@tonkatoytruck Doesn't seem to be the case in other racing series'
I think Rusell and Alonso displayed perfectly how drivers should race. If someone gets pushed off or the other gets a penalty it's not really racing...
Obviously, Fernando knows how to leave a space ;)
I think the situations were very different. For once they only battle for P10, while Lando and Checo battled for P3. And second, they were the only cars around, while Lando and Checo were sorounded by other cars.
@@UkuleleProductions Honestly that doesn't men anything. The rules are the same for every driver in every position and in every moment of the race, and rightly so.
@@UkuleleProductions Sooo because you're battling for 2nd rather than 10th dirty and illegal moves become okay? See this is what's wrong with people today, they seem to think being higher up means you're allowed to get away with more. The rules are the rules and they need to be applied consistently across the whole grid.
@@lorenzorossi6666 yes the rules are the same but the drivers are not - Alonso behind Russell always backed out when on the outside of the turn with Russell and waited until later with better position to complete the pass with drs BEFORE turning into the corner. Checo vs Norris and LeClerc vs Perez - the car on the outside had a chance to brake and maintain position like Alonso because Russell did drift wide in turn 4 as well. Why did Checo and LeClerc not brake because they expected the other to brake- but Alonso did not expect that because he knows the track is sloping down hill pulling the car to the outside. Don’t compare Alonso vs Russell and think Russell left room for Alonso when he did NOT.
The thing that annoys me is the inconsistency. Sure, this race everything was consistent, but where´s that rule been applied the past years?! Max Charles Austria 2019, Lewis Max Portimao 2020, Gasly Norris Paul Ricars 2021. The only difference is the fact that there is gravel and imo that shouldn´t affect the penalty given. The offence still is the same, so why no penalty there, but here now?! I don´t get it.
I think the stewards used logic in those instances, because no ones race was significantly ruined then there was no reason to apply penalties.
If they make the call in future that all tracks with gravel must have at least a car's width of tarmac past the track edge, and make the call to actually enforce those limits during regular driving, then maybe there'd be room to call this sort of racing okay. But when it's dropping the attacker (or defender) into gravel or forcing them into the wall, then it's clearly neutralizing the battle unfairly.
VER and LEC 2019 is different. VER is going for the overtake on the inside. VER is ahead when they touch. He can't take a different line. LEC chose the outside. Each of the penalties from this GP were drivers *defending* the inside and then opening the steering as their normal line despite knowing there could be a car there.
@@plutoprimer6446 If you use that logic really Perez shouldn’t have been penalised as leclerc wasn’t significantly affected. He didn’t lose any places either time and stayed within a second or two of Perez both times until Perez passed ricciardo.
@@Ruylopez778 go watch it again, they literally touched wheels. neither was ahead. also a lap before he tried making the move cleanly, and because lec chose (smartly) to defend the outside, max couldn't get a good enough run on him out of the corner to make the pass, leading to him just moving lec off track the following attempt. choosing to defend the outside shouldn't be penalized, there are plenty of corners where it is the smarter move assuming your rival will give you racing room.
Kimi and fernando have the same battle with kimi at the outside. Fernando gives kimi room and they continued their fight without any fuss.
all da time you have to leave a da space
Nando and George had the same battle as well. Nando knew he had the faster car, so he waited patiently made the move at the right time.
That's why I was a bit disappointed lando kept defending himself and Perez was at least apologetic. I really like lando but his immaturity showed
@@7GGonzalez Perez had no choice to apologise or not. He complained that Norris pushes him off, then goes and does the same thing twice. He couldn’t complain about Norris and then defend his actions at the same time.
@@TheBest14184 exactly the reason why horner says it was a racing incident, because his driver did it twice.
For someone who is fairly new to f1, your videos are such a revelation. So articulate and informative. Top notch quality!
Manscaped? Nah I prefer a Mercedes Benz Lawnmower. This thing cuts much better grass than the Manscaped Lawnmower
Mercedes AMG with Lewis: Cuts corners, cuts grass, cuts chicanes in Bahrain.
W11 aka. Bottas Lawnmower.
Honda makes better lawnmowers and f1 engines!!! 🤣😂🤣
@@pranc236 😂😂
I prefer the Audi R18 lawn mower. 200mph cutting grass perfectly at 1 1/2in at Spa.. anyone remember?
Another point to complement your final take is that when the defender decides to defend the inside line thus giving up the racing line, he shouldn't just be allowed to run wide and reclaim the racing line and as you correctly suggested should have to take the slightly compromised narrower line and allow the driver outside space.
Anyways, another great nuanced analysis!
Yes, but the problem then becomes should the defeding driver slow down as to not close the door when his line will naturaly go that way.
I think that yes, he should, if someone outbreaks you on the outside then slow down, don't close the door and live to fight another corner.
@@federicoposteraro2932 t
They are top drivers.
Poor man excuse like Understeer is not good enougg, in those situation intent doesn't matter its the result.
They know that corner is off camber and understeer, if you think outside line is quicker while defending choose it.
If you chose to go inside and you are racing side by side, obviously you shouldn't be just allowed to push off opponent to go back to racing line.
It's what they are there for and get paid forml.
Exactly this. All the commentators are ignoring fact that by defending the inside line you are already giving up the outside. On corner entry you have to be prepared to leave room for the other car on exit.
It doesn't require you to slow down, just not track all the way out, which IS a slower line but you chose to defend there. Deal with it or stay on the outside line.
@@Silverhks but Perez didn't significantly outbreak Norris
I do agree with all the 5 second time penalties. I think this will encourage more wheel to wheel racing for next time, if you can't just push someone off of the track.
I don't however agree with the 2 penalty points for each incident. That's way too harsh and makes drivers more nervous to attempt an overtake or defend if this is the consequence.
the wheel to wheel racing where the driver in the inside just had to stop because if he just take his corner the driver on the outside will go off track and earn him a penalty; nice
Yes, the penalty points are too much in my opinion as well.
@@Sephi98ros98 wheel to wheel racing without being able to use the outside line because you will be pushed wide with no consenquences to the defender, nice
THIS. 100% agreed. All deserved, but no penalty points.
@@luccass6793 sure but when you are on wheel to wheel and on the inside you just park there ? xD
I think something Chain Bear missed in his explanation was considering that the inside driver has already committed 100% of his grip the the racing line he is on and wont be able to change his line whatsoever until he reaches the acceleration point of the corner. Once he reaches the acceleration point of the corner he can decided to allocate the extra grip to decreasing the angle of the corner instead of allocating that grip to accelerating out of the corner. This was exactly what Lewis was saying last year when he bumped Alex off the same corner. Now, where Lando and Perez at or pass the acceleration point at the time of the incidents? THAT is the question we need to discuss.
You can't change you line before the acceleration point because in order to do that you will have to straighten out the car to allocate grip to decelerating instead of turning, which would make you collide with the car on the outside.
he could've avoided running him off by simply lifting off the throttle or even trail braking to regain some front grip and turn tighter, lando didn't even try that he just assumed perez would be gone already which is his mistake. INB4: I don't think "how do they race then" is a good argument against this, you can overtake in a sport where pushing other drivers off is disallowed, really saying perez should back off because norris was "committed" is the kind of thing that stops racing from happening because it kills the battle earlier than it might have otherwise.
@@RWoody1995 You are correct about “lifting off the throttle” because that implies that Lando had already reached his power on point. At that point Lando could have not put on the power (or use less power) so that he can use his grip to continue to hold his steering wheel to the right (thus leaving space on the track on his left for Perez) instead of doing what he did which was opening up his steering, letting his car travel to the outside of the track, and using most of his available grip to accelerate out of the corner.
My point of debate is whether or not Perez was still on the road when Lando reach his power on point, which I think he was as could have indeed waiting to throttle up until both him and Perez was out of the turn. But I think he didn’t because of the tactic that all drivers learn since their carting days which is “if you are in a corner on the inside and there is a driver on your outside, so long as you are ahead of them in the corner than that corner is yours and it’s up to them to relies if they are going to make it around you or not and decide if they should back out of the overtake or not”.
So yes, I agree that Lando could have avoided running Perez off the track, However I also feel that what Lando did was totally legal. I mean drivers do this on just about every corner. Max did it to Lewis on turn one at Imoa this year. I think the only reason why Lando got penalized is because there was gravel on the outside instead of extra paved runoff.
So while it is difficult in the corner to change line, you can lift off slightly to pull a tighter line if you need to, and yes it will lose you speed and time bur that's kind of the argument of the whole thing. I think the "whos' corner is it?" Idea is silly, if your opponent is alongside you then you need to leave room enough for them to also complete the corner, doesn't mean you can't squeeze them but you need to leave room otherwise you're just asking for a crash
I think everyone should watch Räikönen and Alonso's battle on the same turn and recognise that their battle was far more enjoyable to watch and a better example of good racing than what Norris did to Pérez or what Pérez did to Leclerc.
What Norris did, and then what Pérez did is not "good hard racing," it was poor racing. Pérez even admitted that after the race and apologised to Leclerc.
Yes! Thankyou. I agree 100%. I can't stand those people justifying it by saying "it's just good hard racing". It's like no, that's bad racing. I think the reality of it is that most fans don't actually know what good racing is and just want to see foul play because it's exciting to watch. The real fans on the other hand appreciate what it takes to race like Raikonen and Alonso, we don't need to see them crash and what not.
I guess i missed that battle, but Alonso vs Russell was a masterclass of a battle, highlight of the race for me
Yep. The two veterans have been doing this for a long time. They now how to race properly.
@@justamanchimp I think they just don’t know the rules:P
Different situation or rather your example is a false equivalency. Track configuration has to be considered and Perez could not pass Norris unless Norris brakes and concedes the position. I don’t care that Lando got 5 seconds and 2 points as a penalty because ultimately his race result with 67 laps remaining shows that Checo made a poor decision. Checo braked very late into a very tight right handed turn that has a double apex to find himself on the outside with very little track left next to car that was already accelerating out of the turn. I bet if it was Yuki or Stroll rather than Checo I think more would agree that it was very careless to try that move because late braking into the very tight right that has a double apex against a car with equal power on the same tire compounds was not move with high probability of success. You all fail to recognize that Lando got into turn 4 ahead and was accelerating out of turn 4 by the time Checo was side by side accomplished by late braking too deep into the corner. If Checo tried to get side by side on the outside into the entry of chicane which by the very definition of chicane means it is going to turn back in the opposite direction he could have to hope tithes car brakes and give up or the other car is going to turn right into him. Should the other be penalized for a car carelessly putting themselves in a position where they could never complete the pass? 67 laps with 3 drs zones I think Checo really needs to look in the mirror about his incident with Norris.
I want this kind of enforcement in every race. I think as a key example, Leclerc Verstappen Austria 2019, should have been a penalty clear as day. That's not racing to me, that's bumper cars and bullying.
Your job is to drive the car within the lines, and if there's another car where you want to go you have to accomodate for that and leave space. If they go off track because they don't have the grip to hold that outer line, that's on them. If you force them off track because you didn't take an appropriate line for the situation, that's on you.
If you are able to get the draft or a good launch off the previous corner to be able to contest the outside line, that's just you being faster. That IS racing to me. There's always the risk the driver on the inside runs out of grip or runs out of skill. That doesn't change, the outside line is still risky for that reason. If you get knocked of and beached in the gravel, that is the risk, but the inside line driver bears responsibility and I think a 5s penalty for a case where you didn't obviously steer wide on purpose is entirely appropriate.
I don't like the excuse that "the car goes naturally wide" - these guys get paid to make the car do what they want it to do, not what it naturally wants to do.
I agree with most of this, but a 5s penalty is often unfair in these situations. Giving up the position - if possible - would be much fairer imo. Obviously that can't apply in the Lando vs Checo case, but in both Checo vs Leclerc it would have been the right call I think. Don't really have a solution what would be fair in the first instance though.
Finally someone that agrees with me. Whatever happened to leaving a cars width of space for any driver who is alongside you...
Ever since F1 allowed Verstappen to force Leclerc off the track in Austria this basic race rule of allowing a cars width has been thrown out the window, all because the FIA didnt have the balls to rightly penalise the poster child on the Red Bull ring.
F1 needs more overtaking, and if you allow the driver on the inside of a corner simply run the outside driver off the track then you're discouraging overtaking and making racing boring
I never understood why people thought the 2019 austria incident should have been a penalty. Verstappen clearly held his line, was ahead throughout the corner, and they only made contact because leclerc turned in on verstappen. I think if they both had crashed than leclerc would have been penalized, purely because of his steering movement.
@@a7G-82r go watch it again mate. max was a mile off the apex. theres no reason for leclerc to assume max was going to have an entire car width between him and the apex. max also made no attempt to shorten his turning radius after the first contact and as a result, there was a second contact due to leclerc trying to stay on the racing surface. it is made more obvious by max's previous attempt at passing leclerc, where he did so cleanly, but because leclerc was able to maintain his momentum on the outside, did not managed to make the pass stick. they also touched wheels both times... so clearly max wasn't ahead through the corner.
@@frigvr They only made contact once during the overtaking, which was caused by leclerc steering into verstappen _after_ yielding. Verstappen perfectly followed the defensive racing line. And since he was ahead, you could argue that it was moreso a successful overtake by verstappen in the braking zone of the corner, switching to a defensive maneouver throughout the corner. And if it was a defensive move, it cannot be a penalty since verstappen was entitled to the racing line/corner by being ahead. Definitely a fair move, and very clever.
I *love* that they're finally enforcing a rule that you have to leave the space on the outside. The rule enforcement over the past few years has done more for eliminating overtakes in my opinion than the ever increasing complexity of aero.
Why even bother trying a pass when you know if you're not inside, you're not making it around?
Russel and Alonso showed us how to race wheel to wheel through the corners where others were forced off. But those 2 penalty points are pretty stupid to hand out imo
Should have been 1 for Norris and 1 for Perez's first incident. Though the 2nd by Perez he lost control of the car so I think 2 points is fair on that incident.
Penalty points are for doing something dangerous, and forcing a driver of the track is dangerous. It just comes as a shock because similar moves haven't often been punished that way in the past and there's no guarantee that they will be in the future.
@@Septimus_ii Exactly, before this type of incidents were essentially left unscaped and "Just racing", probably a 5- second penalty and that was it, but I think the real bombshell that really sparked all of this are the license points, which are far more worse than any time penalty you can get.
In regards to the natural path of the car. I feel like this analysis is missing key input at the driver's control. The gas pedal. You track out to the widest part of the track because you are generally accelerating from the apex.
Just like a driver has to choose to move the car across another on a straight. Or close the door on an inside overtake attempt. They have keep their foot on the throttle in order to have the car carry to the exit. If the lift they'll be able to leave the space but will obviously be compromised in the following straight as the outside car is able to carry more speed. So they don't lift and push the car off track.
Is that fair for the driver on the inside? I'm not sure but they have a say in the matter. The car doesn't just track out to the exit all by itself. If they over cook the corner and would understeer off track they would lift to stay on track. If they are taking a complex set of corners that require compromising the exit they would lift to do so. If there was debris or a car having a moment out their they would lift
So by the regulation in the ISC that says you can't hinder a driver by crowding them beyond the edge of the track I think they are definitely in violation. It's necessary to stay ahead and seems somewhat generally accepted. But it's not what the regulations say IMO.
It's frustrating because it seems there's 3 sets of regulations from the outside. Those in the ISC, those that the stewards choose to enforce year to year, race to race lap to lap and corner to corner. Then finally those unwritten rules that the drivers pick and choose to their benefit given the situation. Almost every driver has complained on radio about being pushed off track. Lando included. And almost all of them have run ppl off track in the way Lando and Perez did noting "That's what happens when you try to stick it around the outside." In their minds the corner is almost always theirs
100% this! Thank you
Everyone forgets norris did exactly the same to perez in turn 1, and it wasn’t even looked at because it’s asphalt run-off.
They didn’t look at it because it was the first corner after the re-start
That happens at every race everywhere that’s why there is runoff because it’s never anyone’s fault
FIA said that the runoff material makes a difference for them.
Worth mentioning too, turn 1 is incredibly difficult to take a tighter angle.
The truth is drivers take that corner with complete disregard of anyone on the outside because they know there is tarmac runoff. Tarmac run offs are the bane of F1.
The whole "my corner" argument drives me bonkers, and I agree with the three penalties given in Austria (and I'm a Mclaren fan). The feed and commentators I watched seemed to suggest that the penalties given discourage hard racing and I disagree with that particular take. If you're well alongside, then room has to be given, which will drive more side by side racing. If a driver is able to claim "my corner" by fact of being closer to the apex and is able to effectively open the throttle and drive the "ideal" line regardless of competition, then we've lost racing. If the guy on the outside has managed to compromise the guy on the inside's line, then yes they should have to react to that.
We will lose racing if the defending car has to give up the racing line simply because there's another car next to it too. What that basically means is that if you can get along side a car, on the outside, in the breaking zone then you've won the corner. Because the car on the inside will always get a worse exit since he has to slow down to take a tighter corner and thereby getting a worse exit.
@@SuperGenericUser except that’s just not true… the car that hits the apex gets to accelerate first, yes you have to compromise your exit if someone is on your outside, but you still have that advantage. The argument of, the car naturally drifts to the outside is nonsense, it’s only drifting to the outside because you’ve buried the throttle…
@@SuperGenericUser If an attacking driver can effectively hang alongside a defending driver through a corner, then the defending driver no longer has rights to the "racing line".
@@SuperGenericUser but what you are essentially arguing is that the car on the outside has to give up the corner instead, because all the car on the inside has to do is stay alongside them and then shove them off in the exit.
The inside car doesn't give up the entire corner just because they have to wait a moment to get back on the throttle. The outside car has a bad line, too, this is the nature of going through a corner side by side.
@@SuperGenericUser Just bcs ur on the inside line, doesn't mean the race is gone. It's still there. Slow down so u can get the inside line while still maintaining space for other driver. They are paid millions for this and they are so good at controlling the car. In addition to that, cars on the inside take less distance. You are getting worse exit just bcs you are inside, then that's ur fault. Just look at Russel vs Sainz at the SC restart, or Russell vs Alonso-got the inside line, but still manage to give some space for others and still maintaining his exit and his position. Did Russell lose his race just bcs he got the inside line? No. Great drivers should be able to manage this and they are paid for this. Why do they even want side-by-side racing or more overtaking if u can just shove off others just bcs ur inside or just slightly ahead on the corner??
this is the third vid I've watched in the past 10 mins about land-perez-t4
Jolypn palmer?
Wtf1?
And now chain bear ?
@@squeakybunny2776 maybe driver61?
jeez guys ive watched all those vids just now aswell
@@squeakybunny2776 yep
I skipped all the others but chain bear is usually very accurate so watching this one
Awh now there can be a part 2 sort of with the Hamilton verstappen crash..with overtaking on the inside
I feel like each call was the right call. I'm just left wondering why Kevin Magnussen, seemingly, never was penalized for the same thing even though he did it all the time. Pushing people off track for the spot is lazy and careless. I don't care what the "car wants to do." The driver is in control and if that gravel trap was a wall, both cars would be out of the race. If so, there would be only one driver to blame. I do agree that the penalty points are a bit much.
This is the true issue.
I mean the Styrian GP we saw some incidents that SHOULD have been punished. But weren't...
The stewards have been super inconsistent with rulings, and that's honestly where I find issue. If you want rules, then make punishing them consistent. Don't do this BS where some weeks we punish this then others it's perfectly fine, it makes no sense...and drivers will NEVER be able to adapt to that, because some weeks they're basically being told it's ok and others they're being punished for it. Makes for an extremely frustrating experience
@@MustachioFurioso9134 absolutely. If you look at what Alonso did at the first race going in to turn one lap one, I can't believe they don't even look at that. He snuck in on the inside to put it three wide and on the exit of the turn he used up all the space he wanted. As if he had no idea he was three wide. In the process he pushed two drivers off track which... it is just chaos. If everyone did that on the start not many cars would make it through lap one. Of course, Pierre Gasly didn't make it.
Your intentions are good but incomplete - the track configuration needs to be considered but if you are a Checo fan you are not going to like that - turn 4 is a tight and very long right hander - it is not exactly a straight after the exit and it leads to sweeping left handed turn in turn 6. In fact Checo went off before completing the tight turn because he braked late and went too deep into the corner and there was not much track left before he ran into the gravel - notice how long he runs through the gravel before rejoining the track if he was really through the turn he would have passed more of the gravel and driven on the grass after the gravel trap. His only hope was for Lando to brake and let him pass. If you reward people for braking late dive bombing into corners that is rewarding dangerous behavior. Lando should not have brake to let Checo by because Checo misjudged where his car would and the relative speed of the McLaren coming out of the corner, actually Checo has to admit his move was a poor one. Your comment about if there was wall both cars would have hit is incorrect BECAUSE if there was wall instead gravel it would be Monaco or Baku and no one would try what Checo did - just the opposite you would say that Checo’s move was dangerous because the risk is too high he will make contact with the other car or the wall. I am all for wheel to wheel racing and leaving space but not when the car behind gets side by side on the outside of the leading car by late braking into a tight corner and expecting to keep the outside. Checo could have easily braked and dipped behind and come out on the inside rather than the outside. You can’t expect drivers to leave space it means they have to brake and give up position.
@@mattbilello6229 there is a basic flaw in your argument. Perez was fully side by side and actually ahead for a few moments. Lando, pushed him wide. Blaming Perez for running off the track because he over drove the turn is just stupid.
@@mattbilello6229 Lando fanboy, he was pushed out and I’m a Perez fan and I agree that Perez did deserve those penalties he got, you can’t constantly having double standards
That’s what I call a rapid response
All the time you have to leave a SPACE!
words to live by 🙏🙏🙏
@@oscarkaa15 All the time, you have to stop abusing quotes you don't understand the meaning of
Jesus man the comments already made about 20 times on this video. Dont people care they are just repeating the same shit over and over
Racing would be severely compromised without time penalties for these scenarios (the points on license was harsh IMO). If the defending, inside driver knows they won't be penalized for running their opponent off the track, why wouldn't they? Pushing them off is beneficial in every way. If the attacking, outside driver knows that they will be pushed off the track, they aren't going to try to go around the outside. This devolves into a fight for the inside line (since there is universal agreement that you cannot push the inside driver off the track) which would lead to the most boring and predictable racing. It probably wouldn't even be feasible to overtake without drastic differences in grip between cars.
TLDR; if drivers cant go on the outside without being legally punted, the dominant strategy is to hog the inside line on corner entry so that throughout the entire corner they can punt the attacker.
It's a double edged sword tbh. With a precedent set like this the outside line is now given the red carpet.
@@TechIlliterate if the outside line is now so great, then let the defending driver try to use it. The attacker certainly can't take it away from them.
Yeah, time penalties was acceptable, but I'm disgusted that Norris and Perez got the same number of points on their super licenses (per incident) as Raikonnen did for punting Vettel across the gravel trap. Surely taht deserved a hell of a lot more?
@@peterhuston7888 The rules for the inside line is much harsher. If you are an attacker, and you are ahead on the inside line, you have the complete right to the racing line (see Max vs Leclerc RBR 2019), and can push the other driver off.
Why does the same rules not apply when defending? If you are on the inside, and ahead, but you're the defender instead of the attacker, you randomly just lose your rights to the line?
@@TechIlliterate That's not how it works in the least, but keep showing that IQ of 2.
4:02 Norris is ahead of 2 Mercedes , Perez's race is done anyways , so Horner would obviously want Norris to keep the Mercs behind, easy tactics.
This is probably the best reason/explanation for Horner calling it a racing incident I've seen yet
Can always trust Chain Bear to give a BALANCED overview of these controversial issues!
All we've been hearing is emotionally driven responses from sky pundits and biased fans that they want to see 'hard racing' stating that no penalties were deserved **face palm**
I think the pens WERE deserved (but not the pen points though) and I also think if we want to see more sexy overtakes in F1 we should DISCOURAGE crowding rivals off in to gravel traps round the outside! That doesn't take skill, it's actually quite *lazy* and *dangerous* and sets the precedent that defending cars can always crowd people off the track if they are side by side, without consequence.
Yes. 100%.
Pushing off cars that are alongside takes no defending skills whatsoever. 12 year olds with no drivers license can do that crap. And that's the kind of shit F1 fans are always making fun of Mazepin for pulling in F2. But apparently because Lando reacts to their chats in a Twitch stream, it's OK for Lando to do it. And because Perez is Max's teammate and helping Max win races, it's okay for Perez to do it.
Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree about it being lazy
I just have a single problem with this: it was exactly the same situation between Max and Lewis in Bahrain earlier this year. The difference is that in Bahrain that area is hard surfaced. If it was gravel like it is in the RB Ring, Lewis would not run wide and would be penalized for forcing Max out.
Would he?
@@segueoyuri Lewis didn't run max wide in Bahrain, max lost the rear
@@defnotatroll both happened. Lewis ran him wide than the lost the rear.
F2 and F3 can race side by side for a few corners...
After every F1 race with a controversy of some kind, I try to imagine the title of your next video and this is exactly what I thought it would be lol. Great video, I think we can all agree that this area of F1 is a grey zone where it can go either way. We all want to see wheel to wheel racing and hard racing so it will be interesting to see how this develops over the season aswell as into next season with the new regulations.
The only way we get consistent wheel to wheel racing is having consistent penalties for pushing people off the track. Once drivers are forced to abide by the rules as they are written, we will see a spike in wheel to wheel racing because drivers won't just get to plant themselves on the apex and scream MY CORNER then push the other driver off. It will also result in more wheel to wheel racing because overtake attempts will happen and be more viable without having such a speed delta to the car you're overtaking that you just blow by them in half a second in time that they're wheel to wheel.
We must protect the driver on the outside line by giving him space. Otherwise we will no longer see overtakes round the outside never again.
True that. It takes 0 skill to launch another driver out of the track. Every1 could do that. The real skill is to keep fighting for the position trough the multiple corners like Alonso and Kimi, and Alonso vs Russel.
Andretti and Hunt had this conversation at Zandvoort '77. Hunt whined that in F1 you don't pass on the outside. Andretti said something like, "Buddy, where I'm from we pass anywhere we can." Really raises the question as to why this discussion only happens in F1. You say a leader can drive anywhere they want on ovals, on entry and exit, and half the grid will die every race.
Why now? As Palmer pointed out this was never an issue for last 2+ years!!!
Palmer actually answered it himself, tarmac run off. That's the difference.
It really shouldn’t matter that other stewards weren’t enforcing the rules correctly for the last two years. The ruling on the Max-Charles incident in Austria 2019 set the (wrong) precedent that it was okay to break this rule.
I want consistency between rulings as much as the next guy, but I also want to see the rules properly followed.
@n8mo. Totally, 100% agree. I saw this as a huge problem 2 years ago but I was silenced because everyone was spouting the same “the inside line is the racing line so attacking on the outside is inherently dangerous ” bullshit.
Obviously getting pushed into gravel/grass is worse than hard runoff so thats probably why they penalize that more often, but even getting pushed to runoff isn't victim-free either:
Lets say youre lining up a pass on the outside and youve got alongside them before the braking point, and maintained that to the corner exit, but you still get pushed off.
Obviously youve earned some space, but too bad. You're off wide through no fault of your own. If you fall behind, you've lost that fight and now you need to waste time recharging batteries and planning another attack. Hopefully you have enough tire left for another one.
Or maybe you were able to stay side by side. Well, the inside line is slower, so you have the advantage. If you stayed on track you'd have a better exit and a great chance to pass. But no, now you've been off course. Even if you take their position, they can argue you 'gained an advantage', and would have to give the place back, even though you probably would've had them had they didnt do you dirty
Its bs. They need to enforce this 24/7 no matter the runoff. Running cars off track should not be a legal move
Those who think that this is harsh , watch the three F3 races , clean proper and enjoyable racing
These animations are so good - great video!
We saw several times driver giving space while defending in those exact corners, ie:
Alonso vs Kimi
Alonso vs Russell
Appreciate you taking the time to make these. Keep up the good work!
I'll give you that the penalty points on their licenses don't make sense. But I REFUSE to hear anyone argue that the 5s penalties were wrong, because as the rules state and you concluded in the end once you're significantly alongside your opponent, they must leave space.
YT recommending this now. Well played!
If the opponent is on the outside while staying on track side by side that means he made the faster turn. And deserves to be given space.
As the saying goes: you always have to leave the space.
Define "side by side", and you're back to the core issue of the problem. Do you still agree with your analysis if "side by side" means "the outside attacker has an inch of his nose next to the defender"? I bet not. So how far alongside does he need to be?
Previously, the idea has been "completely alongside, front axel to front axel". If FIA wants less than that, that would be fine, but no such statement or rule has been made.
These exact scenarios have been handled as racing incidents in the past, or given warnings. And then suddenly comes along a set of stewards who's loaded their penalty machine gun for a weekend so they can unload on every car on the grid. Wtf are the drivers, or the fans, suppose to expect when the rules seemingly changes on a whim?
Thank you for this detailed yet simple explanation! I found myself a little confused after Palmer's analysis (which I usually love) and this cleared a lot up for me.
Once a Wise Racing Driver said,"All the time you have to leave the space"
An other wise man once said
"I want to punch him, when i see him"
A man once said "Stop abusing quotes. They're often false, and they don't means what you think they mean".
Alonso was talking about a very specific situation, not all situations.
@@Excludos he literally said "all the time", how is that specific
@@oscarkaa15 Consider perhaps that Alonso was wrong?
The way I've always looked at it is that at corner entry, if the driver on the outside is fully alongside (axle to axle) or ahead, then they have claimed a right to space that the inside driver has to leave. If a following driver is not alongside or ahead at corner entry, then the inside driver has claimed the corner and is entitled to the racing line. If the following driver still attempts an outside move even though they didn't claim the corner then it's at their own risk and they might be run off the track on corner exit. This always seemed fair to me, the driver ahead is obviously entitled to choose their line and is under no obligation to make room for someone trying to pass them. The only way you get space is if you claim it. In the race, I felt that Norris' penalty could have gone either way, Perez' first penalty on Leclerc was correct (Leclerc was clearly ahead and had earned the right to space), and Perez' second penalty on Leclerc was not correct (Leclerc was not fully alongside but still hung in until he had to run wide).
I agree with your assertion, but I don’t think the current regulations reflect that view.
@@migy5031 Yes, they do. They just haven't been enforced.
You'd know the regulations do if you had paid attention to the video.
The regulations actually state if your wing is beyond their rear axle they have right to space, not sure why everyone seems to think you need to be fully ahead to have claimed the space, because if you're already fully ahead by the corner, you're not the attacking or overtaking driver anymore.
@@shawnpitman876 which regulation specifies that?
@@TMJ32 "20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'."
Which is the same definition for having significant position they use in all manners.
Maybe read the regulations next time before you start commenting on them and what the drivers are entitled to.
Saying that it's a different situation when the car is on the outside implies you think F1 drivers have very little control and the car just pulls them along for a ride.
Yes, if you drive without any care in the world you will push them off the track.
No, this is not a foregone conclusion and a driver can actually slow down slightly without losing all of their speed and stopping on the apex as you seem to suggest was the only other option for Norris at 4:20.
Also, lets be aware that 5 second penalties are very rarely actually meaningful: after just 10% of a race, Mercedes and Red Bull will have that much of a gap to every car behind.
I would agree with you if Checo had forced Lando into a mistake. That doesn't imply the defender can't control the car, rather that the defender owns the racing line if he still has track position. Checo got a good run down the hill with the tow but he didn't outbrake Lando. Lando didn't lock up into the corner. He didn't lose the car on acceleration. He didn't drift off the racing line. Why should he give up the place? Checo took a risk and lost out.
I would also argue that corner exit here is more important than the corner entry, a lift here would cost him a tenth or two and definitely give up the position. I also disagree that the penalty isn't meaningful. It cost him track position on Bottas during the pit stop and was possibly the difference between P2 and P3. Lando is also close to a race ban because of the 2 penalty points added to his license.
I don't really think the penalty was fair, but I also don't think the penalty is wholly and obviously unwarranted. Instead, the actual implication here is that drivers should just give up the position or risk a penalty when the attacker takes a risk. We like overtaking in F1 but I don't want the stewards deciding the races.
@@mogwix Lando didn't need to "give up the place". He just needs to accept that the car behind him was fast enough, that it managed to get significantly alongside of him entering the corner. Thus Lando needs to work with that reality (i.e. the car alongside of him) and race the other driver while exiting, on a less optimal racing line. Lando only got into that situation because the driver behind forced him into that disadvantage by being faster.
And before anyone says anything about attackers shoving their cars alongside the outside for gaining that advantage: if the attacking car compromises their breaking while entering the corner, the defending car has nothing to worry about. Regardless of whether they give up the optimal racing line or not.
@@mogwix But why can't a middle ground between those two option exist? Can Lando just, keep him on the outside and not pushing him off? Will it always be a lose situation for Lando, or he could just fight the position through turn 5, 6 and 7? Why is it only give up or risk a penalty?
@@testdrivefan1 Because Lando is already committed to his exit. He doesn't just steer a bit and allow space for Checo, he'd have to lift or even brake. That would compromise his exit and therefore his run through turn 5. Checo would probably be ahead by a car length or two into turn 6 if he did that.
@@mogwix then he could have hugged the outside if he knew going into the inside of turn 4 leads to a poorer exit than going into the outside. Would Checo have done the same (lift or brake) if he was on the inside, in order to not push the outside car off? I think so.
Alonso and Russell showed everyone how it’s supposed to be done, other drivers should watch their battle and try to learn something
Difference is that Alonso actually pulled out when he lost the racing line, while Perez didn't. The defender did nothing different in those cases
@@Excludos no, look at where Russell's wheel is placed in relation to kerb vs Norris blocking Perez and Perez blocking Leclerc.
@@orio_3 which lap? Alonso had several attempts
And also Alonso vs Kimi
Back to the old "If there was a barrier..." comment. If there was, the defending driver on the inside would have slowed naturally as they would know if they put the attacking driver in the wall, either it's a definite penalty or they'll lock wheels and both go out.
First of all the driver on the outside would slow down and don't go so long on the outside.
@@fizproducts might explain why so many walled tracks make for poor racing. you can't overtake because you just get run of the track.
My opinion is that no matter what the rules say or don't say, there's got to be a level of sportsmanship and conduct.
Yes, every position gained/defended is important sure, but running someone off the track when they held side-by-side with you through the corner (either inside or outside) just isn't sportman-like, and a penalty is warranted.
Some comparison to how Alonso v. Russell handled the same or similiar situations would have been helpful in this video. All the same good job as always!
I’m tossed up on the penalties, but to me it seemed like Perez was just being too impatient at turn 4. I’m not saying that he shouldn’t have attempted the move, but he was driving as if he was frustrated from being behind Norris. I don’t blame Perez for going for the move, as in F1 games I usually go for it, but patience is valuable in F1, and for certainly the first two, a bit of patience could have prevented the incidents.
People don't wanna race anymore. When you are go karting, you Just know the guy inside will Cross. The guy outside HAS to slow down if he won't manage to be at the front at the corner exit. The guy outside has to step down the attempt...
Too much interferance at the race, too much punishment. Let the racers race (And be aware if you are outsiding the corner!!!!)
The “knowing the risks” is basically blaming the guy for getting screwed by you
Yes but when you attack a guy twice your size, you're not gonna blame the other guy for screwing you over are you? You knew the risks
@@pangolin83 this makes no sense
@@hkkfxsxsgdbff1511 Would you fight a guy twice your size? No because it's risky. Should you have overtaken on the outside? Probably not because it's risky.
@@pangolin83 again this is a really bad analogy. The only way a fight like that happens is if it's a street fight which has no rules so a person can have a clear advantage and do whatever it wants, in F1 on the other hand you have a lot of rules and can't do whatever you want
@@hkkfxsxsgdbff1511 maybe the better analogy would be you're up against a criminal holding a hostage, Perez is the negotiator while Norris is the criminal. Norris have a leverage in the negotiation. If Perez successfully arrest Norris he would get a promotion. Perez has two options, either back down and let the criminal escape, saving the hostage life, or try to shoot Norris and hope that the hostage is unharmed. Perez choose to shoot Norris but Norris had time to kill the hostage, while also avoid being shot on his vitals. Norris escaped with the time bought by the attention on the killed hostage and Perz should be blamed for his decision to shoot. The hostage here is the track position of Perez, the criminal safety is the track position of Norris and the gunshot is Perez's attempt to overtake. If they simply negotiate well, Perez wouldn't lose the hostage, or in this case, his track position, and Norris could also retain his safety, which is his own track position. But this analogy is also fitting in the context that Norris is the criminal, from aggressively holding his track position, by holding and killing the hostage. But you do know that Perez could've done better. The escaped Norris gets caught later on, and sentenced to death for killing the hostage, this is the 5 second penalty. Had he not defended aggressively and choose to just get arrested, he could've just gotten some lighter punishment, in this case losing his track position, but he will retain his life.
More relevant than ever.
Even more now?
Thank you for, as always, the best presentation of complex racing concepts.
Finally a take on the situation that doesn't feel like team/driver bias
Agreed, you shouldnt be allowed to push a other car into gravel even not intentional
Watching this after the 2021 UK GP….
Really good points and very well explained and illustrated! Your videos are extremely helpful to us newcomers in F1. Thank you!
Uhhhhh... I changed my mind a couple of times concerning these racing incidents 😁 and finally made it up right at the end of the video.... lol. Great analysis as always!!! Thanks.
Omg, this is where the intelligent discussion is.
Finally a place that understands that these penalties do lead to the racing we want!
I live in the States, can someone explain why Will Buxton has a seeming celebrity status if he's just a motorsports journalist?
9:17 i have to agree with you, im slight thinking its a yes since, your correct, that you have already compromise the line of the defender, but yet, this needs a further debate since a lot of factors are in account
dude this channel never disappoints. what an assessment, and what a great explanation. thanks for all the things you make, you make this sport so much more understandable for me
YES YES YES OMG YES. Thank you Chainbear for recognizing that the defending car has responsibilities. You chose the inside line, now that’s your side. You don’t get to retake the outside line just because the car wants to. Use the wheel and pedals, that’s why they are there.
Except chainbear here has also shown that by forcing the defending driver to take the inside line, as the attacked you can take a line through the corner that gives you better straight line speed - Leclerc did it just before the second incident with Perez. Any time the cars are alongside each other going into the corner, you have the potential for the defending driver to do everything right and still be unable to leave the space because of understeer etc.
There's no guarantee in any of these cases that by the time the defending driver has hit the brakes, the car will be physically able to hug the inside corner all the way around. Then you end up in an argument about what counts as alongside going into the braking zone, and that can lead to defending drivers essentially having to hand over the place just because the attacker has a tiny overlap. If you don't penalise this, we have already seen the attacker has forced the defender into this slower, inside to outside line, and has the choice to drive a totally different line and slingshot past
@@sooyoo4 The attacker did not force the defending driver to take the inside line, the defending driver chose that inside line. I think having that lane choice is all the advantage that the lead driver should be granted. If the lead car feels like the outside line is more advantageous though that particular corner, then they should have defended to the outside and pinched the defender to the inside.
I think policing dive bombs would be much easier than a lot of the gray areas already in the rules. If the defending car feels threatened enough to have to defend the inside line going into the braking zone, then they have enough time to recognize that they will not have the full width of the track from apex out.
@@sooyoo4 understeer only happens because a driver is trying to do something the car can't do. So Its a driver error so "defender did everything right" argument is kinda wrong. Cars don't decide to randomly lose control or snap drivers force them to by going over the limit(except mechanical failures). So It's defender's responsibility to prevent understeer/oversteer and keep the car in control.
@@sooyoo4 the driver on the inside, who has someone overtaking them and now can't track out, can always get on the gas later or trail brake more coming in in order to leave the necessary space. It's true that overtaking on the outside is risky, because the defending driver may make a mistake and push you off, but that doesn't mean the defending driver should be free from consequences if they do.
I can't wait for the analysis of Lap one Copse Verstappen/Hamilton!
I definitely agree with the opinion. If a driver defends by going to the inside, thus compromising the natural racing line for a defensive racing line, they should also grant the attacking driver the space alongside out of the corner.
If not, it could potentially just motivate a defending driver to always park it on the inside line, forcing an opponent off out of the corner (because I was being carried wide by my speed), and thus make it impossible for any overtakes on the outside going forward.
Thank you for always making such fantastic videos ChainBear!
Most inclusive, detailed, and objective video I've seen on this subject. Bravo! 👏
"Are they innocent"
Consider this... The track is lined with solid concrete walls. There are no run off areas... How would those interaction have played out then?
If the defending car doesn't leave any room then BOTH cars will end up entangled in a crash.
In conclusion, it feels wrong but it is right... The defending car MUST leave enough room on the track for the attacker if the attacker enters that section of track alongside the defender.
Exactly. Drivers must race as though there are solid barriers at track limits. When drivers defend corner exits like that on street circuits, it almost always results in both cars DNF.
Awesome video, as always! Love the insight.
I love your videos, keep them coming! Great work!
When overtaking you know the risks, but you cant drive pretending someone isnt there, Norris should have slown down to leave a car there for Perez, keep the fight going to the next corner, it is annoying to knowingly slow down, but the other option is either the other car being drafted into the WRC or the other car asserting his right to exist and keeping himself there, causing a crash, nothing more annoying than a driver that cant drive with others around him. Yes, you can assert your position in the corner and block the other driver from out gas-sing you, but you cant deny him the right to be there
Precisely. The way Norris reacted to the incident even post race was extremely immature. I get the feeling he's a bit of a spoiled brat behind all the laughs and memes. Extremely talented but a brat.
Perez on the other hand took responsibility even though it wasn't completely his fault. Man's attitude compared to a 12 year old is the way I see it
Ok but can anyone name another driver that successfully completed a pass on the outside of turn 4 which is tight and down hill sloping? The track configuration has to be taken into account and expecting the inside car to brake enough after accelerating to get through the corner is risky. I’m fine with the penalty and I bet McLaren is as well. In reality McLaren probably expected a fifth or at best fourth place finish but instead Checo’s move solidified a podium finish. There would be no penalty and most likely no podium for McLaren if Checo just waits and sets up the pass a couple of laps and I mean only a couple of laps later - Checo would have drs behind Norris and Norris would not because Max is too far ahead. Checo would have easily passed Norris in turn 1 or turn 3 or completed the pass before turning into turn 4 because of drs. It’s a shame that no one wants acknowledge that drivers with cars with capability of winning races throw their races away with poor decisions. Instead we focus on who is good sport or who is arrogant - maybe Checo was arrogant for even trying such a move there. I think Lando’s response was immature and he should not have said what he said BUT I don’t fault his logic because that down hill tight right hander is bad place to try the move made by Checo.
@@mattbilello6229 It's about the entertainment. Yes, turn 4 is hard for overtaking, but just imagine if they can race side-by-side way up to the next two or three corners. They should keep continuing on this to make it more entertaining. I mean, why do even ppl want to keep watching F1 if they can watch MotoGP with more exciting race instead?
In Perez’ first incident with LeClerc, it was LeClerc who actually turned into Perez as clearly seen in the onboard cameras. That should’ve been 100% on LeClerc at fault. However at the end of the day all were simply racing incidents and shouldn’t have been investigated further.
You're joking, right?
Alonso and Russel displayed perfect hard racing, always leava’d the space and still pish the limit. It was amazing to watcg
If you look at the steering angle of PER in the NOR incident, given its speed and car placement in the corner, he would have gone off track anyways unless he decided to slowdown. Onboard cameras clearly shows that he was hard steering right throughout the corner until he went off track. Very debatable if NOR could have done anything to avoid this.
Even more of a reason for NOR to give the car's width then! If the attacking driver messed up with their breaking, the defending car does not have anything to worry about. Even if they are forced to a less-than-optimal racing line (in order to leave enough space for the car alongside of them).
@@iampitsi True!
"Should you be penalised for running your opponent wide?"
Well that depends what kind of mood Masi is in that day lol
Masi is not a stewards and doesn't give out the penalties.
@@andrewdixon8147 the fact that people doesn’t know this is amazing
Masi doesn't give penalties.
@@andrewdixon8147 Masi dictates the rulings in his Race Directors notes. The stewards reference those as well as the F1 regulations to determine if it is a penalty.
@@luttren The fact that you dont know how stewards determine if it is a penalty or not is amazing.
when youre alongside - always you have to leave the space. otherwise an defending driver on the inside will always run his opponent off track and eventually we would never see attacks on the outside again. it would be too risky when you know you will end up off the track
That's bull. If you were forced to do that, then everyone would just bomb it around the outside because they know they will either get the position or they will get the defending driver slapped with a penalty. And before you cry about "good racing" or whatever, take a look at how both Land and Alonso dealt with cars defending into Turn 4. They had the patience to slow down and then cut back and overtake the defending driver while coming out of the turn. The only reason Perez ended up in the gravel is because he drove himself there, no one was forcing him to try as risky of an overtake as that and he tunnel visioned hard. He still had 67 more laps to go in the race and he had a car that was faster than Lando's. No one ruined Perez's race but himself.
@@matejkovacic9310 Then the defender could just take the outside lane so the other car can’t, smart guy. It’s the driver ahead that determines what the attacker can do...
My opinion, NON BIASED.
In this situation, turn 4 Austria, down hill braking zone on full tank of fuel and track drops away which means the drivers will get loads of understeer. Keeping that in mind, the drivers must know that the car will understeer no matter what. If the two cars are side by side mid-corner, the driver on the inside must slight lift to prevent the 'natural' trajectory and to leave a cars width on the outside. Its a very narrow window to work with, hence its termed as the "defensive line". So the moment the driver goes to the inside line to "defend" before the braking zone, he/she must recalculate to prevent the car from 'naturally' drifting wide (if there is still a car on the outside, of course).
Besides, isnt that what makes a GREAT driver? Coming out on top of the other driver with a disadvantage BUT fairly.
All 5 sec penalties deserved. Penalty points, however, undeserved.
Great video, great explanation. Thanks!
Jesus, you agree with me. I was getting so tired of hearing why this was fine for the tenth time. Good twist. Appreciated it. XD
The reason everyone thought this was ok is because the live commentators said they were harsh penalties. I'm new to watching F1 and was probably influenced by the commentators. This vid explains it well so now I can see why penalties were given
Fact: If it was Mazepin instead of Norris, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The public and pundits would have deemed it a fully deserved penalty and not even harsh enough to boot.
well... if it was mazepin... it would have been during blue flag, not during an actual position. there is a difference between racing and creating dangerous situations for other for no reason at all
When was Mazepin ever in front of anyone so he could be overtaken?
@@vinnie8792 to be fair, Tiovon is right, fans do look at the drivers involved before deciding penalties. I wouldn't be surprised if Max had a penalty for pushing Leclerc in Austria 2019, but as a Max fan i was happy he avoided the penalty and won the race, and if i see anything potentially illegal from Nikita i will hope to see the stewards being as ruthless as they can be
@@luccass6793 for sure, but i also think there is a case to be made for ppl fighting for a podium (the sport always has some risk involved and all driver know it) vs some1 in 19/20 creating a risky situation for basicly no use. at that point you are not racing for points ever, and should put more of the concentration into avoiding hindering other drivers
@@luccass6793 also whi kimi got 3 penalty points (and it was just a dumb mistake XD)
Superb analysis & video.
Completely agree with you, I think this could continue into a discussion about these types of corners. If you have asphalt instead of gravel and concrete around on the runoff of the corner of turn 4, you can allow the attacking car to continue racing outside the track, if they are pushed wide, not give any penalties and let the racing continue. You can penalise any misuses of the runoff asphalt. The worst thing about these incidents is when drivers are loosing a lot of positions, because they are driving on gravel. It's more fun to keep the racing close.
Perez went wide at turn 1 leaving the track entirely and gained a "lasting advantage" that meant he was able to attack Norris at turn 4, had he stayed on the track at turn 1 the turn 4 incident would never have occurred but there was no penalty for that and that IS in the sporting regulations. I say let them race and part of racing is knowing when and where to put your car and when and where NOT to put your car. I didn't think any of the incidents where penalty worthy and had there not been gravel I think all would have been "racing incidents" and no penalties would have been awarded, however, had Perez or Leclerc successfully past having left the track, they would have been required to give the place back 🤷♂️
yes, I was wondering all race long why no one pointed out that Perez gained lasting advantage at turn 1.
Since he used that advantage in turn 4.
@@ziweiwang1704 Because he lifted on the subsequent straight to be entirely behind Norris again. If you gain an advantage but then voluntarily give it up again, it's common practice for the stewards not to investigate.
@@rjfaber1991 I don't know what you were watching, but it wasn't the same race as me. Perez was alongside Norris after turn 1 through what they call turn 2 (isn't really a turn) and only drop behind Norris right at the corner of turn 3, there was no lift on the straight after turn 1 at all.
@@andrewdixon8147 Thank you!! I have been waiting for someone to mention this. At no point did Perez give back the place. Norris re took the place, which for me is very different.
@@andrewdixon8147 There definitely was. Perez was halfway past Norris out of the corner, and entirely behind him at the next. You can quite clearly see that Perez lifts off ever so slightly to gradually fall back behind Norris without risking being overtaken by anyone behind him.
If you look at the highlights video on F1's official channel, you'll see Perez being half a car's length ahead just out of the corner at 1:05, only still slightly alongside at 1:09, and fully behind at 1:11. All of this has happened on the straight. Things then get a bit more complicated because both Perez and Norris get attacked by a Mercedes (by Bottas and Hamilton respectively) and have to defend, and it's these different defensive lines that mean that Perez is once again alongside (though way off the racing line) at 1:15, but by that point he had already given the position back, and he would come out of the corner behind Norris anyway.
Why the hell are people still arguing about this? Simply watch Kimi vs Alonso and Alonso vs George and tell me that penalty on Perez and Norris wasn’t deserved, it was
A wise man once said. ''If you see a gap and you don't go for it, you're no longer a racing driver''
I think what makes this look better than it really is is the nature of the corner. If you imagine this happening on a tight slow corner it is clear that this is a penalty. You can do the exact same thing, never steering into your opponent, just keeping the same angle that you know is going to take you to the outside of the track and ultimately push him out. And for the force that is pushing them to the outside, it's only there because they are stepping on the accelerator. As many people pointed out, completely possible to battle away in this area of the track without pushing anyone, like we saw in this same race with different drivers. Not penalizing this is the same as ending overtakes around the outside
I think you won me over.
In conclusion, time penalties were correct, penalty points were not.
Completely agree with you. These moves had to be penalized in some way because otherwise everyone will just push the opponent off the track. That would be way too easy for the defender and we would see less daring moves which makes the sport that bit more boring. The push-offs in this race were not exceptionaly malicious or dangerous so I agree, the 5 sec alone would have been sufficient as a penalty.
As always, we’ll explained Stuart! The tricky thing for me is the line between a ‘hail Mary around the outside’ gamble and a proper show of skill, making your opponent on the inside choose between sub-optimal choices. The first should be wrong, the second fair. But I find your conclusions well argued and presented so I agree with them.
Hamilton took out Albon last year at that same corner, pretty similar, right?
He got a penalty for it right, IIRC? Same thing
video starts at 1:36
I think it could be argued that if the inside driver runs wider than expected due to natural forces pushing the car to the outside of the corner and, by consequence runs the outside attacker off the track, this should be considered as the inside driver not being in control of his car, which does mandate a penatly as per the rules
Love to hear an analyses like this on the Hamilton/Verstappen incident at Silverstone :D
As a lando fan imo it was right that he got a penalty
It really cost him nothing because of that action he got P3
good that you show the steering angle but you can also steer the car with the pedals just fyi
Indeed. And that seems to be the requirement now - if someone pulls alongside you on the outside, you now have to slow down so that you are able to leave room. Seems unfair to me.
Well said and thought-provoking as always, Chainy! You have changed my thinking around the issue. These drivers cant pretend that their position at the exit of the turn is a surprise. They know where their car is going to be; they get paid millions precisely because they possess this knowledge.
I think this is the most interesting analysis I've seen so far. Maybe because it is the one that confirms my own biases kkkk
By far the most unbiased take on the penalties. Some Vertappen antis have just randomly been bringing up an old unrelated incident where Leclerc reacted to a late Verstappen dive by running deeper and turning in to try to cover it off. This was a *completely* different incident that had nothing to do with this. Thank you Chain bear for your unbiased take! I tend to agree with everything you said!
The driver passing on the outside knows with absolute certainty that when the inside car is over-driven it will ALWAYS move to the outside of the corner. In all these cases, the fault is squarely on the driver of the car on the outside. The ideal example of a great corner sequence is the pass of Lando on Hamilton. He assessed the risk, backed off, made the pass in the next corner.
The penalties in all cases here were/are too harsh.
So your saying you don't want drivers attempting overtakes on the outside? Because that would always result in the inside car being allowed to go as wide as they want.
@@fondfarewell2 He is saying that you need to use your head and asses the risk of trying an outside overtake in that corner, and that you shouldn't be allowed to just bomb it outside and claim: "Oh but i was on the outside of the turn, he must be punished!!". Let the inside car go as wide as they fucking want, both Lando and Alonso showed what to do in that case: simply let off the throttle a bit, and cut back under the defending driver and get them at the exit of the turn, rather than risking it in the middle of it.
@@matejkovacic9310 so you don't want to see overtakes on the outside then? Any overtake is risky if drivers don't respect others space. And if there was an undercut, that driver would now be allowed to drive as wide as they like on exit correct? Because the inside car would be late braking and ending up on the outside.
That man scape shaving animation though, top notch
Yes yes yes
I was really suprised how much the commentators were surprised by those penalties and didn't agreed to them, yet they would always love some battling, when ironically such rule to give space would indeed make more opportunities for battles (apart from leaving space being just fair)
I can totally agree with You, thank You for that video