Something I like, in amongst the many lies characters tell in this film is Two-Face repeatedly stressing how he had to lie to Rachel that "it would all be ok" to reassure her. Where, in reality, it's Rachel that comforts Harvey in the final moments, where he is instead screaming. It doesn't mean much, and he does offer some reassurance earlier on, to be fair, but with the amount he forces Gordon to "lie to your son that it's going to be ok, like I lied" it's just an interesting extra. Patreon link - www.patreon.com/mylittlethoughttree
Actually, that wasn't really a lie because before, Harvey was sure that someone was gonna come for Rachel, and that's what he kept saying to her. It wasn't until Batman came for him that he started freaking out, and then Rachel attempted to comfort him. So, when he says he was forced to lie to her, what he's really saying is: "You were supposed to save her, not me."
Could be that whereas Batman has a low opinion of himself, Harvey has a very high opinion of himself. Yet how he acted in Rachel's final moments differs from how he sees himself. He wasn't calm and reassuring as he "should have" been. So he lies, perhaps partially to convince himself that he was her white knight to the very end.
@@netherworlde He was very calm and reassuring when he believed someone was coming for her. He believed she would be saved and he would die. It wasn't vanity. He lost it when he realized Batman had come for him instead, not realizing the Joker had fooled them all by setting up a situation that would inflict survivors' guilt on both men.
I loved this essay. Loved that you pointed out at the general frustration the joker feels at being called a freak. It's such a great bit for this representation of the character. Also your analysis of Bruce was very interesting.
One thing I really like about your videos is you don’t hyper-cut your speech like so many people on RUclips try to do. There is the right amount of pause and conversation that makes listening to this as a natural lecture. Really love this.
on your point about the joker being a man with a plan, an incredible detail that most people miss is that when he gives Harvey the gun in the hospital, he keeps his finger over the hammer the entire time it is pointed at him. Hes in control of the situation the entire time, with his speech about chaos merely being a tool to turn Harvey.
Nothing’s more dangerous than a psychopath who is extremely calm. That’s why Heath’s Joker is very dangerous. I love all the jokers, but Heath’s, to me, in my honest opinion, is very interesting. When things don’t go to his plan, he just improvises, and that’s who Joker is. Joker is basically Professor Moriarty to Batman’s Sherlock Holmes. They are the Ying and Yang, one can’t live without the other.
He Wasn't a Psychopath Psychopath's Find it Hard to Tell the Difference Between Right & Wrong He's a Sociopath Sociopath's Understand the Difference Between Right & Wrong But Ðon't Let those Stop them from Acting in their Own Interest
Never noticed the dog symbolisim before, regardless of how direct it is. Also: I'm glad you picked up on the whole 'I dont make plans' thing, when he very clearly does. Everyone seems to think hes just chaotic incarnate but that isnt true. He understands people very well and knows just how to break them. He dosent see people, he sees play things to break and destory. He puts on the face paint and theatrics because, thats how the public will resonate with his 'chaos'. 'the joker' is just a mask, a tool. Its not something he's all that speficically invested in emotionally and whatnot. Edit: also, the whole 'cant let the public know about harvey' is because if he, being district DA, who put all those people in jail, if he we're to be found incompetant to stand office (insane) all his actions as DA would immediatly be overruled. And as established earlier, no-one was going to stand up to the criminals. Especially not if they got the one guy who wouldn't break. So they perpetuated the lie to keep the gangs and such in prison. It was peace through lies. A 'the ends justifiy the means' question.
Yes! Everybody either takes him at his word about not having plans, or they assume he had the ONE plan that just HAPPENED to work. NO. He had plans inside plans, contingencies for contingencies. You think getting caught and breaking Lao out of prison personally was his plan A? I don't.
Pure chaos doesn't ever follow a plan. There's no way that this particular version of the joker didn't plan for well over half of this. Granted some of it could have been not necessarily completely planned out. There are always unseen variables. But chaos doesn't follow patterns chaos doesn't follow a plan and chaos is ultimately unpredictable in the end.
Going a little deeper with the whole dog aspect of things.. every domesticated dog has relatives that originated with wolves. A wolf is an apex predator. The wolf does not need to run in a pack like a coyote. What in nature hunts wolves??? Not a damn thing that's what.
Being as "Civilized as the world will allow..." is not a short coming, its just normal. We are certainly capable of savagery and some people will do anything to survive but that's just evolution.
There's a thing I call The Columbo Effect. It's a thing I do when I want someone to under estimate me, for whatever reason. Joker has that kinda thinking
Rachel tells Bruce "this is your mask," Bruce Wayne is the persona he projects to function within society. He is masking. "Don't talk like one of them, you're not. Even if you'd like to be." Nolan's version of Batman and Joker both have Asperger's.
I subscribe to the theory that he was in the military, had a wife that was wounded by the mob and had an abusive father. When he's talking about his scars he's not talking about his face, he's talking about "what made him" his emotional scars that took away his humanity and set him on the path to bring it all down. The mob, the establishment and the abusive system that drives people to do terrible things.
Great insight as always. The Dark Knight has been discussed to death and I'm always skeptical that there's much more new to say, but I had not personally encountered the argument that Bruce misreads Harvey because he views Harvey as the "true" successor to his father's legacy. I had always read the end of the movie as an affirmation of Bruce's decision to sacrifice batman in order to protect Harvey's public image, but I suspect that your analysis that this is just another expression of Bruce's guilt over his parents' death is probably just as well supported by the text. Super interesting. One question, if you're up for it: some commenters have proposed a backstory for Joker wherein he is a veteran of war suffering from PTSD, coping with his trauma by inflicting it on others. This is not directly supported by the text of the film, but possibly hinted in a few moments here and there. Does this theory have merit, based on your experience?
Yeah, I mean I think how you read the end of the movie is correct and is exactly how we're meant to read it too. I think having Gordon explain it with a speech and things tells us that's what Nolan wants us to think...I just also believe that the psychology of Bruce as depicted in this trilogy makes it emotionally likely he would make that decision...even if it is also the logical one. I think there's sense to that theory because the drills done in the street parade aren't at all easy and would likely have required some practice from the Joker beforehand as to not stand out. Whether it's correct or not, I don't know, but I think it's a plausible idea
@@mylittlethoughttree True, Gordon's voice over lends authority to the "noble sacrifice" interpretation of Bruce's actions. But I think the fact that it comes from Gordon, who places the needs of Gotham over the needs of any one individual, leaves room for your analysis - it is possible to do the right thing for emotionally complex (I hesitate to use the word "wrong") reasons. I think I need to watch the trilogy again... Anyway, thanks for your response, and thanks again for the video. I spammed all my friends with it :)
Disclaimer: I didn’t watch the Dark Knight trilogy, I am not super familiar with the Batman universe, and I have only just gotten to part five of the video. I also did not read the comments to see if someone else undoubtedly said this already. But there is something that I want to mention that tickled my brain when MLTT was discussing Joker’s motivations. Something that he has yet to talk about and likely won’t is that throughout this movie (according to what I saw in this video and glimpsed in other videos), there is an underlying current to the Joker’s motives. He sounds like someone who wants to feel connected to the world and to people but feels rejected by them. I feel like the motivation that multiple characters hint at is that the Joker wants to change society to fit in with him since he can’t fit in with society. It explains why he wants people to be pushed over the edge, because he thinks that is how he came to be who he is. He is trying to change the world into one where the freaks are normal and normal people are the freaks. Just my own little two cents I wanted to add. I don’t think MLTT is wrong though I disagree with some of his interpretations. I think he mostly pegged the Joker, but I feel like the addition of what I said paints a much clearer picture of who the Joker is and why he does what he does. Just wanted to add that bit while it was still fresh in my mind.
Joker is a soldier, probably went insane during his tour, probably saw a lot of his friends die and he went crazy. Would had made a hell of a origin story.
I know that theory. That's why he mentioned the truckload of soldiers while talking to Harvey, and also could be the reason of his scars. Would be one of the best origin stories.
I like the idea of not knowing where he comes from. Just an embodiment of chaos. But I’m my head, him being a former soldier of some kind makes the most sense
I think it would be more likely he's a former soldier but did things that caused him to be discharged - so he doesn't want to talk about it as he can't be seen as a loser. He can't be trusted to work with a group.
My girlfriend showed me the film for the first time a few months ago, I was blown away by it. Very much intend to make video(s) on it once my breakfast club series is over
In the "Boat Scene" the fact that the joker had a backup plan says that at some level he knew that the people aboard each boat wouldnt blow themselves up. His look after, was it sadness, or relief? Food for thought.
My take on this joker is he was a jnr officer in a us army bomb desposal unit who got sent into a bad situation where his squad were killed by an ied, he got blamed for it even though it was his superior officers fault (the schemer) this is why he thought people would turn on each other because he has actually seen it in war zones, people beating children up for food drops people fighting violently over bags of rice he's actually seen it. He probably got discharged for ptsd and got given meds which he stopped taking because they made him feel dull he then wanted revenge on society. He sees batman as a kindred spirit simply because they are both unique and batman is trying to do something unlike the useless masses he holds in contempt who have forgotten his squad who don't care about the wars and who continue to drink their Starbucks and watch reality TV he wants to shake them out of their apathy even if it takes burning everything down to do so. He genuinely sees himself as a moral crusader and is suicidal but wants to go out with a bang. His military and officer training is how he is such a good planner is good with explosives and small arms and is an adept hand to hand combatant. He sees himself as a good man but it's the pressure that made him fall from grace, he wants validation of this by making batman a symbol of heroic action to fall from grace as well to tell himself "see....it could happen to anybody, given enough pressure".
Dude must have felt very alone with all of those thoughts. I think he might have been projecting himself onto Gordon when we told him, surrounded by utter darkness, that he was absolutely alone
This was a great video, I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts. I would love to hear your thoughts about the Dark Knight Rises! In particular, I liked how you focused on the moment when the Joker realizes that neither boat pressed the button before midnight. Its a quick moment and he quickly defects it by taking the matter into his own hands and making good on his threat to blow both boats up. When he reaches for his detonator we feel how Batman feels: afraid for the people on the boats, worried that their lives are in danger. If the boats explode for whatever reason, this is a loss for Batman, for the victims, and for the inhabitants of Gotham. That's what we focus on, but that's not the full story. The full story is that whether or not the boats blow up, this is a loss for the Joker, his first major loss. If Batman and the police showed up and ruined his social experiment, then he could still claim that his philosophy was true, that deep down regular people are evil and all it takes is fear to expose their true nature. In this case, Batman and the police were not able to interrupt the experiment, nevertheless in the end neither of the boats pressed the button. The Joker's thesis didn't happen as he expected it to, believed it would, even NEEDED it to happen in order to justify his view of the world. These regular people were thrust into a fearful kill or be killed situation and yet they didn't kill each other, they didn't expose that deep down they were evil. If anything they exposed that deep down they're NOT evil, whatever their faults may be on the surface, that under pressure they are capable of leadership, nobility and restraint. Sure, the Joker can kill them himself, but that wouldn't be a win for the Joker, even if it would be a loss for the rest of Gotham. The Joker lost the moment the clock struck midnight, the moment it was proven to him that his belief wasn't accurate, at least not in this case, but if he was wrong about this it begs the question what else he might be wrong about. You can see him waver, he is visibly shaken by this result. This is genuine chaos, not his manufactured organized brand of chaos when he sets up a situation for the sole purpose of FORCING his desired outcome to happen and pretend it was an unexpected chaotic outcome. This is the universe defying his expectations, something genuinely unexpected happening in spite of how unlikely it seemed to him. The Joker may thrive in and desire his version of organized chaos, but when people are able to remain calm and organized in spite of his chaotic influence, that resilience is genuinely disorienting to him. That scene reminds me of a scene in the movie No Country For Old Men. If you haven't watched it, I recommend you do so now and avoid having someone like me spoil it (maybe you could make a video about that movie some day, I think that would be really fascinating and fun). If you are ok with spoilers continue. There is a scene in that movie where the antagonist character, who shares some things in common with the Joker, has his assumptions about the world defied. Like the Joker, he tries to deflect from this occurrence and act like nothing happened, but it is clear that he is deeply shaken by the event. It is the moment when a character who seems like an inhuman force of nature is suddenly made very human, vulnerable, and small.
I finished watching your video and I like the way you explained your thoughts about the characters. I think you perceived it well. I agree with most of what you said.
"Crazy" is a generalized social term used against those who are just different. The Joker knows what his deal is, in actual terms of what he's gone through and why he does what he does. He just doesn't like to be CALLED crazy.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Joker. When the world goes to hell.. civilization goes out the window. As a little taste of that, look what happened with TP? That was a very slight panic.. imagine something big like nuclear war.
Heath Ledger was a method actor which made his performance as great as it was. Jared Leto and to a lesser extent Joaquin Phoenix used the same technique in their portrayal of the character as well. Undoubtedly method acting can be bad for the actor's own mental health.
The joker represents the pinnacle of scheming and he looks down on, resents how useless this skill is to the human condition. He's terminally sane from his point of view. He sees Batman as representing the peak of reactivity to others schemes, one that was trying to get out of the way of society's scheme to put Harvey dent as a false representation of the societal contact being incorruptible. Ultimately, the joker loses because society just folds the jokers machinations into it's own.
I love your videos and I have always been into psychology even though it was not my major. I never put much thought into analyzing movies or series now I do it constantly. Funny part is it does get awkward, since I can not turn it off, when I voluntarily go to the psychologist office to work on things that I am catching myself analyzing me and the provider at the same time.
There isnt a soul on tgis planet that hasn't or will not be faced with a point in life of streching the truth bending the truth or just an out right lie ! 😮 joker will be saved 🙌
I've watched a lot of Dark Knight analysis videos over the years but this one still manages to point out new aspects of the film and the characters, which is astonishing. Definetly will check out your other videos and future content :) Don't worry if they get lengthy, people nowadays watch 4 hour discussions or ramblings about 2 hour movies or endless video game streams with some dude talking out of his ass.
I never saw it as the Joker trying to convince anyone to be him, I saw him trying to break down everyone. Batman Interrogation - He was being honest with him. Bruce may have seemed like he was listening, but we all know that he despised him, Batman hates criminals, and assumes every criminal has the same motive, but he wasn't prepared for the Joker, something the Joker was keenly aware of. "You have all these rules and you think they'll save you", batman replies "I only have one rule" and the Joker treating that as a I got him says "Oooh and that's the rule you're gonna have to break to know the truth. The only sensible thing to live in this world is without rules and tonight you're gonna break your one rule." And then after getting brutalized, the Joker tells him how he'll break that one rule "Killing is make a choice. You choose one life or the other. The brave district attorney or his brushing bride to be" and then after the next smack, you can see that the Joker is shoving in Batman's face that his efforts are pointless "You have nothing! Nothing to threaten me with. Nothing to do with all your strength" and in that instance, it was clear Batman would've gone further, but the Joker gives him a choice "Don't worry, I'm gonna tell you where they are! Both of them. And thats the point, you'll have to choose." And while he told them their locations, the choice he gave him was "Which of them will you choose to die". If he chose to go after Harvey, then he'd be choosing to kill Harvey. But since he chose Rachel, he chose to kill Rachel. That was the point of "You'll have to choose". The Joker isn't about convincing people, its about breaking them down, getting them to do things they wouldn't normally do. Harvey - Obviously The Joker is the best schemer of them all. But his aim with Harvey wasn't about convincing him to be like him. It was once again breaking him down. He redirected his anger, made him turn his attention elsewhere. He knew that Harvey has fought the mob this entire time and planted the idea that it was them, not him. Harvey has been following the rules since the beginning, so the Joker twisted them, flipped his compass of right & wrong on it's head. No longer is Harvey the prosecutor, he's the executioner. And when he told Batman "I took Gotham's white knight and I brought him down to our level. It wasn't hard." you gotta admit, he did take down Harvey with very little effort. Just like Batman in the interrogation, Harvey was unprepared for the Joker, and even worse, the Joker's words made sense to him. He broke Harvey, turned the arbiter of justice into a monster. As for Batman having faith in Harvey, I don't think he truly believed what he told Harvey "You're the symbol of hope I can never be". I see that as more him trying to convince him, similar to how you'd tell a person "You're better than this", you don't really know that for sure, but it does tend to work with people who respect you. It tends to make them want to live up to what you say about them, a subtle encouragement tactic. And while yes, he did wanna pass on the mantle & responsibility, I saw it as Batman NEEDING him to be what people saw him to be. Harvey becoming Two-Face was the Joker's backup plan for his ultimate goal - Breaking Down Gotham. He was of course frustrated that his Ferry plan didn't work, he likely thought he had pushed the people of Gotham enough to get them to do what he wants. But if he failed, then "You didnt really think I would risk the battle for Gotham's soul, in a fist fight with you? No, no, you need an Ace in the Hole, mine's Harvey." He knew that if Harvey's crimes ever came to light at the cusp of all this that the Joker had unleashed, it would break Gotham, and Gordon saw it at the end "People will lose hope." It really drives home that quote about the Joker: "All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am: Just One BAD DAY."
Joker HAD to be an ex-agent of military intelligence gone rogue, or a burn-out from at least one of the covert agencies. His tactical skills in planning and execution reeked of a Skunk-works operator...
@@yurigaviria6794 Alfred explains that he and his friends LITERALLY burned down the forest in Burma to find a jewel thief therefore Alfred was the real villain in Burma. He destroyed an ecosystem an possibly killed people and villages in the process
@@shadow1395100 yeah because trees don't grow back...stop getting your morals from crazy elites who ski all day and think that they're connecting with nature somehow in that process. Also pretty sure they wouldn't be allowed to mindlessly kill the civilians merely to catch a jewel thief in MI6.
I always wonder how much of that is him and how much is his untimely death. His performance IS something else, but it seems like someone's last performance is always treated like this, even when their best performance was years earlier...
@@nicholashodges201 I don't know that this was Heath Ledger's best performance, but I will say that he is, to me, the definitive Joker. Others have carried the role, and carried it well, even greatly... but I feel like his portrayal touches on the heart of who and what the Joker is best.
@@therisenchampion2023 honestly, for me, it's actually Caesar Romero. Yeah the tv show was campy AF, but there was just something plain creepy about that Joker, and it's like the sillier he acted, the creepier he became. Like in the next episode, you could find out he actually had an orphanage gassed while he was distracting batman with a dance of and it wouldn't be too much of a surprise.
This film was the epitome of "It ain't gonna get done unless you do it yourself." This trilogy of Batman wasn't the honed warrior psychopath the many versions of the comic character was. It was a guilt ridden man who did everything to alleviate himself of the guilt and was desperate for a successor. This version of Batman doesn't have Robins and Batwomen. He is constantly alone. Won't train students and wants the system to take over his legacy. He inevitably fails heavily but scrapes a win in the end. The Nolan Trilogy was special and a noble effort and definitely a spectacle but even Christian Bale himself said that after seeing Heath Ledger's performance he wish he did better. The Joker in this film is a hypocrite. He isn't insane or a chaotic entity, he is a calculating sociopath who received heavy trauma and seeks power through action. He is a troll who sees Batman as a profile to ruin and "Wreck". I respect this version of the Joker because of his intent and creativity but he is 100% sane. But the fact that this Batman couldn't interrogate or trace any gang member into finding the Joker's locale was odd but beneficial to the narative.
I’ve seen Batman begins easily over 15 times (it’s my comfort movie) and probably the Dark Knight at least 10 times… but I’ve never made the connection of Bruce’s connection and adoration of Harvey dent being connected to his adoration of his father and the symbol he projected in Bruce’s eyes, yet… it makes so much sense upon realizing it and actually kinda addresses a few of the things I didn’t love about the Dark Knight. So thank you for this insight, it actually has changed how I view this movies upon another rewatch.
Re the idea of the Joker's scars being self-inflicted, consider what he says to Batman after the ferry passengers don't blow each other up. (I'm quoting from memory.) "You can't get good help these days. You have to do everything yourself. I always have. That reminds me... do you know how I got these scars?" I always took that as a very strong hint that he gave himself the scars.
Could certainly be psychosis of trying to fit in but being abused like many institutions do for someone else's gain and becoming this rogue mercenary vigilante chaos agent pushing Society as an evolutionary catalyst. Scars are metaphorical to his ability to adapt, overcome and transform just like that of the butterfly and mutilation transformation of cowboy bill in silence of the lamb.
As with the "I'm not wearing hockey pads" crack when the joker says "you're not one of them". There's a divergence where Batman and the Joker believe they're both right and engage in behaviour where they judge and intervene in the lives of others. Both believe the system has massive flaws that essentially then frees both to do as they please to those around them. In this way the Joker was more self aware than Batman. I think if you call him afreak you've walked into his trap, proved him correct about you so he can attack you. Batman believes he's allowed make viligante attacks but not other. The Joker starts out robbing the mafia, he actually dismantled at least one gang making them fight to the death. It's similar to viligante violence and lying to the population to preserve the image of Harvey Dent. They're doing what they want to cause society to behave how they want it to based on different goals, one to uphold the rules of a broken system by breaking the rules if that system and the other to show the population the system is broken by breaking the rules of that system.
@@fatbitch7168 One can delude himself he's not breaking the rules of the broken because he makes a moral judgement on those he targets. They're using the brokeness and corruption inherent in the courts and police to make money which the billionaire finds morally unacceptable. Joker directly targets the cops and mobsters at head of the broken system.
This was a great and refreshing analysis. I love how you point out that there's something off about Harvey Dent from the very beginning and how Bruce sees too much of his father in him to the point where he's blind sighted by his fall, and the Joker's desire to externalize the chaos that's constantly present in his own head. It's been a while since I've heard some fresh takes on this movie, which I can't get enough of.
it kinda makes you wonder why would they call him Two-Face in the office besides from his coin game... could it be due to anything else? He might have been hiding darkness and aggression behind his intentions of doing what's right
Yes. I think Dent is a fallen hero story structure wise and they always have to be already somewhat corrupted before they fall all the way. This fits Harvey to a tee. He is the top symbol of the Justice system in Gotham. He’s supposed to follow the rules. But instead he does whatever he feels is necessary to get the job done. Do what is necessary said Ra’s AlGuhl. The ends justify the means. He asks Batman to follow Lau to China and kidnap him because he cannot legally extradite him. He lies and says he’s Batman at the press conference. Even the little things count like using his position of authority to secure a reservation at Bruce’s hotel / restaurant despite a three week long waiting list. The same one Bruce ceremoniously wrote a check to buy in Batman Begins, I’m guessing. So yeah, there was something off about Harvey. He wasn’t as white a knight as he was credited to be. Meanwhile Bruce is the real White Knight. Tidbit - Nolan gave an interview in which he said the title of the movie refers to BOTH Batman and Harvey - since Harvey falls…i.e. no longer the white knight by the end of the story. Harvey put himself above the law he was supposed to be serving - and vengeance overtook him when he suffered a loss. Bruce suffered the same loss of Rachel and yet saves the man that killed her (Joker) from falling to his death to deliver true Justice as Rachel had preached to him in Begins. Stark contrast. I love this whole trilogy. I’m pretty sure the overall theme, the common thread between the movies is the idea that how we choose to deal with death and grief is at least as important as how we choose to live our lives. People who saw Star Trek The Wrath of Khan will recognize that line. Also, the best way to honor the lives of those taken from us is to live our own lives to the fullest in the present reaching forward to the future and not dwelling in the past or the loss. That is the theme from Gravity and other movies as well. Clearly Bruce completes a character arc in learning to cope with his grief and guilt which allows him to move away from Gotham and pursue happiness and love. Nolan / Bale’s Batman is the only iteration of the character to do so on the big screen. This is why Nolan is determined there won’t be a fourth. It would destroy Bruce’s arc. But if anybody could figure out how to bring Bruce back to Gotham Nolan could - if he wanted to. Just bring Bruce back to mentor Blake or whoever else donned the cape in the canon. He can stay healthy minded and still serve his family’s legacy from “the chair in the Batcave”. Okay that’s it. I could go on for days but …😂😂😂.
They couldnt explain harveys downfall because it would reveal that even "gothams white knight" and "the best of us" could be broken. In the eyes of gotham anyone could be broken...even batman, whos already an outlaw (we know he cant be broken but they dont)
@@mylittlethoughttree I hope not. I really enjoy your work, but that movie just doesn't provide a lot beyond the surface. I find Joaquin's performance to be performative for the sake of his own appearance. Not for the character, or narrative.
2:55 not sure you noticed that the joker held the hammer down on the revolver when he gave the gun to Dent. That tells you he was always in control even when he was tempting Harvey Dent to kill him.
Maybe protecting Harvey's turn to the darkside was a little about protecting his image as the incorruptible white knight, but it was more about not allowing all the men Harvey had prosecuted a get out of jail free card. Their lawyers would have appealed all their sentences due to having a corrupt prosecuter who was "obviously" not shy about bending or breaking the law. I even think this was spoken about in DK.
If I'm perfectly honest, Nolan did as Nolan does in nearly all his projects, when you think of Nolan's Batman, you shouldn't think of three movies but three acts of a story, beginning middle and end. And he fumbles at the end. Though Gotham Knights is screwing it up something terrible, the smarter option to pick for this would be the Court of Owls, hell have it be a wink tie-in with the comic that comes out same year. We've got everything set up, a 'peaceful and controlled society' that's a lie and Batman is shunned by the public and law, reinforce that with the people pushing it being the Court and have all major players that have gone through hell since tDK suffering because of their support to Batman. Then include the remnants of the League of Shadows in Bane to have the chaos agents wanting to stop the people who Thomas Wayne was part of return to have Bruce at his lowest, broken and defeated, his entire life seeming to be a lie and then making himself the better man who forges on and defeats both while sacrificing himself at the end. would've been better than a redo of the first movie
an important part of batman lore is municipal corruption and police incompetence, i.e. the official authorities. justice is left in private hands and powerful individuals can make their own laws, for better or for worse. in a moral reality such as this, you can say with some reason that the "good guys"wouldn't really want to solve gotham's core problems because without them, there's little justification for their role as saviors...
I never felt that saying “I’m not wearing hockey pads” meant that I am rich and your not. Batman mean and I think pretty clearly he is not an untrained person just running out into the street on raw emotion. He has spent years studying as seen in the first film and has used the money and expertise of Morgan Freeman’s character to build weapons and equipment the guy in hockey pads doesn’t have.
Youre the only person who gets it. hes not chaotic, random or "insane" but is driven by a deeply cynical philosophy about humanity he uses to justify his reign of terror _just_ like a terrorist. I saw this other theory that he mightve been a veteran which is what i personally thought when i first watched the film, i think at the very least its possible he felt betrayed by the society hes terrorizes which is why he cant be bribed or reasoned with because he doesnt want it's money. And i think the reason why hes sad during the ship scene is bc he would rather believe people are terrible monsters than see the truth about himself, that hes a broken man. Anyway loved this video, not a psychology student but i look forward to learning more form your channel! ❤
I think when he said he didn't have a plan he meant he doesn't have an end game he plans out battles as they come but he doesn't have an objective he just wants to disrupt things
I always felt the Joker began as a normal guy, but joined the military, probably a post 9/11 patriotic enlistment. Got PTSD, returned from war and his PTSD made him a social outcast. Add in the Glasgow smile pushed him over the edge. The Jokers motivation was to show that people will break, just like he did, given the circumstances, which he is trying to place into them. The ultimate revenge on society.
Deffo. Especially the way he was acting with military precision in the police parade. And his perchance of putting people in situations where you have mere minutes to make decisions that may not go the way you envision. And the perfect precision of the heists. Christ! Even his forever changing scars story reeks of psychological mind fuckery. Military for sure x
He got his scars by trying to be like his wife. But she saw him as a mirror. How does that explanation reflect the context in which he tells that story? If he is acting like a mirror to society and they can't stand the sight of him... The stories are commentary for the scene that the stories are in. He's saying that the rich people are scarred and ugly and he is just showing their true nature with his own actions.
Listening to you explain the Joker was very interesting. I've never really understood that character or why people like him, but I guess he's a modern version of Iago, and just destroys because he can, but at the same time he's looking to see himself reflected in those around him, wants to prove he's not unique. This was fascinating. I love your in-depth look at characters! :)
I once heard from a psychologist who had dealt with abusers, and I might not get everything right because it was a long time. But he said that a common motivation of abusers to abuse, was not because they enjoyed hurting. But it was because they ultimately believed that everyone was rotten to the core, usually they were people who had suffered abuse themselves as a kid or something very traumatic happened, which had led them to see humanity with lots of cynicism. So because they believed humanity was rotten to the core, them becoming an asshole and an abuser was justified, they were just rotten as everyone else. In their eyes, they were not bad, everyone was. So seeing good people to them, it was infuriating because if they were not rotten, it meant humanity was not rotten, so it meant it was just them who were rotten. So part of the reason of abuse was due to anger, but another part was to see the abused snap and show their dark side, just to justify their worldview. To justify their acts, they needed to see others become rotten. So maybe the Joker is like that. The psychologist also mentioned that there was people who were precisely the same, but believed in the goodness of people. And often opposites attract. So it is very sad, because often, really good people will end up with abusers, the classic "I will change him/her".
It really depends the version. Often in comics he takes on a mythological Trickster role, in that there's some lesson or message he's trying impart through his violence & chaos. Or he's just opposing Batman because he "has to"
I like to think of it as more like, Joker knows the world is rotten to the core. BUT! He thinks it can be saved. The only problem being, that in order to be saved, whoever is doing the saving needs to know what's truly wrong. And that's his job. Show anyone who can save the world just what's wrong with it.
Miss... The good guys... You like them and all that but if we like saved alllll the people in the world, provide them with everything they need, no more poverty, no more nothing.... Just enjoying life and making babies... Pretty soon this planet would run out of resources and space!!! We would ALL die!!! So actually being a 'good person' does not mean that you'll have a good outcome. It can be quite the opposite!!! It can lead you to the end of times actually! So you probably didn't liked the Joker because you bought that goody 2 shoes stuff and never thought much about it. So your 'existential building' cannot conceive such a fundamental flaw for the sake of structure. Because that building can come crashing down and you don't want to rebuild it because it's too much work. That's why Joker loves chaos in many ways. because IT IS a process of destruction and rebuilding alllll the time. That can drive most people insane... Because the second they lose their fundations they no longer can operate objectively in the world. They don't know what's right or wrong anymore! Which is harder to know in fact because Right or Wrong isn't just about what you think... It's about Time and how things will fall into place. Which are out of control most of the times. There's room to love Chaos because there's surprise and out of ordinary results in it. Joker makes fun of Batman because... There's not much of a point for being a good OCD person. Things ultimately are out of control anyways. Batman is just an idiot operating under a false narrative. Although.... Doesn't mean Joker is 100% right and true. Because total chaos or letting things fall into absolute chaos is not a good thing either. Batman and Joker are 2 extremes that cancel each other out. As long as they believe in their stuff... That will last forever
In a way Batman is the villain because of you rather put a mask on what's actually going on like putting a bag over something ugly well the joker rather have it show it's true colors instead of hiding like Batman and everyone else on the planet maybe wrong and how he's doing but he's trying to prove a point
In all of us, two opposing forces wage an eternal war, representing the greatest forces in the human psyche: Bats and Clowns. The winner will be the one you feed.
Gotham allowed Harvey Dent to prosecute known mafia associates without warrants (or something like that), and if the truth of Dent came out all the mafia members would be released. So the stakes were a lot more that simply 'letting down Gothamites'
![Cody Johnson - I'm Gonna Love You (with Carrie Underwood) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yy9PuYMU29g/mqdefault.jpg)
Something I like, in amongst the many lies characters tell in this film is Two-Face repeatedly stressing how he had to lie to Rachel that "it would all be ok" to reassure her. Where, in reality, it's Rachel that comforts Harvey in the final moments, where he is instead screaming. It doesn't mean much, and he does offer some reassurance earlier on, to be fair, but with the amount he forces Gordon to "lie to your son that it's going to be ok, like I lied" it's just an interesting extra.
Patreon link - www.patreon.com/mylittlethoughttree
Actually, that wasn't really a lie because before, Harvey was sure that someone was gonna come for Rachel, and that's what he kept saying to her. It wasn't until Batman came for him that he started freaking out, and then Rachel attempted to comfort him. So, when he says he was forced to lie to her, what he's really saying is: "You were supposed to save her, not me."
Could be that whereas Batman has a low opinion of himself, Harvey has a very high opinion of himself. Yet how he acted in Rachel's final moments differs from how he sees himself. He wasn't calm and reassuring as he "should have" been. So he lies, perhaps partially to convince himself that he was her white knight to the very end.
@@netherworlde That's a good point.
@@netherworlde I really like that take
@@netherworlde He was very calm and reassuring when he believed someone was coming for her. He believed she would be saved and he would die. It wasn't vanity. He lost it when he realized Batman had come for him instead, not realizing the Joker had fooled them all by setting up a situation that would inflict survivors' guilt on both men.
I loved this essay. Loved that you pointed out at the general frustration the joker feels at being called a freak. It's such a great bit for this representation of the character. Also your analysis of Bruce was very interesting.
One thing I really like about your videos is you don’t hyper-cut your speech like so many people on RUclips try to do. There is the right amount of pause and conversation that makes listening to this as a natural lecture. Really love this.
on your point about the joker being a man with a plan, an incredible detail that most people miss is that when he gives Harvey the gun in the hospital, he keeps his finger over the hammer the entire time it is pointed at him. Hes in control of the situation the entire time, with his speech about chaos merely being a tool to turn Harvey.
Oh didnt realize that until now
Underrated channel
3:14 chaos always wins over order, because chaos is more organised. Terry prachete
Masterpiece
Nothing’s more dangerous than a psychopath who is extremely calm. That’s why Heath’s Joker is very dangerous. I love all the jokers, but Heath’s, to me, in my honest opinion, is very interesting. When things don’t go to his plan, he just improvises, and that’s who Joker is. Joker is basically Professor Moriarty to Batman’s Sherlock Holmes. They are the Ying and Yang, one can’t live without the other.
He Wasn't a Psychopath Psychopath's Find it Hard to Tell the Difference Between Right & Wrong He's a Sociopath Sociopath's Understand the Difference Between Right & Wrong But Ðon't Let those Stop them from Acting in their Own Interest
High functioning psychopath is dangerous. They are more composed.
The joker is agent of chaos he just does things and they work out in his favor
Never noticed the dog symbolisim before, regardless of how direct it is. Also: I'm glad you picked up on the whole 'I dont make plans' thing, when he very clearly does. Everyone seems to think hes just chaotic incarnate but that isnt true. He understands people very well and knows just how to break them. He dosent see people, he sees play things to break and destory. He puts on the face paint and theatrics because, thats how the public will resonate with his 'chaos'. 'the joker' is just a mask, a tool. Its not something he's all that speficically invested in emotionally and whatnot.
Edit: also, the whole 'cant let the public know about harvey' is because if he, being district DA, who put all those people in jail, if he we're to be found incompetant to stand office (insane) all his actions as DA would immediatly be overruled. And as established earlier, no-one was going to stand up to the criminals. Especially not if they got the one guy who wouldn't break. So they perpetuated the lie to keep the gangs and such in prison. It was peace through lies. A 'the ends justifiy the means' question.
Yes! Everybody either takes him at his word about not having plans, or they assume he had the ONE plan that just HAPPENED to work. NO. He had plans inside plans, contingencies for contingencies. You think getting caught and breaking Lao out of prison personally was his plan A? I don't.
that bit about Harvey also makes me think about how many people he put away, yet he ended up committing numerous crimes himself
Reminds me of Petyr Baelish, he thrives in chaos while scheming and planing. From the book, never the TV serie.
Pure chaos doesn't ever follow a plan. There's no way that this particular version of the joker didn't plan for well over half of this. Granted some of it could have been not necessarily completely planned out. There are always unseen variables. But chaos doesn't follow patterns chaos doesn't follow a plan and chaos is ultimately unpredictable in the end.
Going a little deeper with the whole dog aspect of things.. every domesticated dog has relatives that originated with wolves. A wolf is an apex predator. The wolf does not need to run in a pack like a coyote. What in nature hunts wolves???
Not a damn thing that's what.
Being as "Civilized as the world will allow..." is not a short coming, its just normal. We are certainly capable of savagery and some people will do anything to survive but that's just evolution.
There's a thing I call The Columbo Effect. It's a thing I do when I want someone to under estimate me, for whatever reason. Joker has that kinda thinking
Christian Bale's Batman was very good, his Bruce Wayne was perfection but Heath Ledgers Joker will forever be the best Joker we will have ever seen.
Rachel tells Bruce "this is your mask," Bruce Wayne is the persona he projects to function within society. He is masking. "Don't talk like one of them, you're not. Even if you'd like to be." Nolan's version of Batman and Joker both have Asperger's.
I subscribe to the theory that he was in the military, had a wife that was wounded by the mob and had an abusive father. When he's talking about his scars he's not talking about his face, he's talking about "what made him" his emotional scars that took away his humanity and set him on the path to bring it all down.
The mob, the establishment and the abusive system that drives people to do terrible things.
Good way to start my morning
Great insight as always. The Dark Knight has been discussed to death and I'm always skeptical that there's much more new to say, but I had not personally encountered the argument that Bruce misreads Harvey because he views Harvey as the "true" successor to his father's legacy. I had always read the end of the movie as an affirmation of Bruce's decision to sacrifice batman in order to protect Harvey's public image, but I suspect that your analysis that this is just another expression of Bruce's guilt over his parents' death is probably just as well supported by the text. Super interesting.
One question, if you're up for it: some commenters have proposed a backstory for Joker wherein he is a veteran of war suffering from PTSD, coping with his trauma by inflicting it on others. This is not directly supported by the text of the film, but possibly hinted in a few moments here and there. Does this theory have merit, based on your experience?
Yeah, I mean I think how you read the end of the movie is correct and is exactly how we're meant to read it too. I think having Gordon explain it with a speech and things tells us that's what Nolan wants us to think...I just also believe that the psychology of Bruce as depicted in this trilogy makes it emotionally likely he would make that decision...even if it is also the logical one.
I think there's sense to that theory because the drills done in the street parade aren't at all easy and would likely have required some practice from the Joker beforehand as to not stand out. Whether it's correct or not, I don't know, but I think it's a plausible idea
@@mylittlethoughttree True, Gordon's voice over lends authority to the "noble sacrifice" interpretation of Bruce's actions. But I think the fact that it comes from Gordon, who places the needs of Gotham over the needs of any one individual, leaves room for your analysis - it is possible to do the right thing for emotionally complex (I hesitate to use the word "wrong") reasons. I think I need to watch the trilogy again...
Anyway, thanks for your response, and thanks again for the video. I spammed all my friends with it :)
He's exchanging Batman's life for Harvey's public life as if he exchanged his life for his father's
maybe he would even feel like it's fair or like he's making amends to Gotham and the figure onto which he projected his father for it in some way
the "im not wearing hockeypads" is in reference to him wearing armor, not padding I dont think it referrs to money at all.
Disclaimer: I didn’t watch the Dark Knight trilogy, I am not super familiar with the Batman universe, and I have only just gotten to part five of the video. I also did not read the comments to see if someone else undoubtedly said this already.
But there is something that I want to mention that tickled my brain when MLTT was discussing Joker’s motivations. Something that he has yet to talk about and likely won’t is that throughout this movie (according to what I saw in this video and glimpsed in other videos), there is an underlying current to the Joker’s motives. He sounds like someone who wants to feel connected to the world and to people but feels rejected by them. I feel like the motivation that multiple characters hint at is that the Joker wants to change society to fit in with him since he can’t fit in with society. It explains why he wants people to be pushed over the edge, because he thinks that is how he came to be who he is. He is trying to change the world into one where the freaks are normal and normal people are the freaks.
Just my own little two cents I wanted to add. I don’t think MLTT is wrong though I disagree with some of his interpretations. I think he mostly pegged the Joker, but I feel like the addition of what I said paints a much clearer picture of who the Joker is and why he does what he does. Just wanted to add that bit while it was still fresh in my mind.
Joker is a soldier, probably went insane during his tour, probably saw a lot of his friends die and he went crazy. Would had made a hell of a origin story.
I know that theory. That's why he mentioned the truckload of soldiers while talking to Harvey, and also could be the reason of his scars. Would be one of the best origin stories.
I like the idea of not knowing where he comes from. Just an embodiment of chaos. But I’m my head, him being a former soldier of some kind makes the most sense
He not only mentioned truck load of soldiers but gangbangers as well.
I think it would be more likely he's a former soldier but did things that caused him to be discharged - so he doesn't want to talk about it as he can't be seen as a loser. He can't be trusted to work with a group.
Nope...Joker is the Devil disguised as a human
Wheres wally!
You should try do one on stand by me
My girlfriend showed me the film for the first time a few months ago, I was blown away by it. Very much intend to make video(s) on it once my breakfast club series is over
2:05 Harvey also says "The Joker's just a mad dog. I want whoever let him off the leash" to Maroni before he kills him and his driver.
Yeah, do Bane also :)
I wish there was a movie of heath ledgers Joker
In the "Boat Scene" the fact that the joker had a backup plan says that at some level he knew that the people aboard each boat wouldnt blow themselves up. His look after, was it sadness, or relief? Food for thought.
Loneliness. He was in his feelings because he couldn't drag all those people down to his level with him.
A bitter and twisted dude.
Please talk about Bojack Horseman
26:23
But is that leader not the one who instills order. As to why it did not happen (in Jokers philosophy)
heath was amazing at improvising, he had the same vision for the character as Nolan
My take on this joker is he was a jnr officer in a us army bomb desposal unit who got sent into a bad situation where his squad were killed by an ied, he got blamed for it even though it was his superior officers fault (the schemer) this is why he thought people would turn on each other because he has actually seen it in war zones, people beating children up for food drops people fighting violently over bags of rice he's actually seen it. He probably got discharged for ptsd and got given meds which he stopped taking because they made him feel dull he then wanted revenge on society. He sees batman as a kindred spirit simply because they are both unique and batman is trying to do something unlike the useless masses he holds in contempt who have forgotten his squad who don't care about the wars and who continue to drink their Starbucks and watch reality TV he wants to shake them out of their apathy even if it takes burning everything down to do so. He genuinely sees himself as a moral crusader and is suicidal but wants to go out with a bang. His military and officer training is how he is such a good planner is good with explosives and small arms and is an adept hand to hand combatant. He sees himself as a good man but it's the pressure that made him fall from grace, he wants validation of this by making batman a symbol of heroic action to fall from grace as well to tell himself "see....it could happen to anybody, given enough pressure".
Dude must have felt very alone with all of those thoughts. I think he might have been projecting himself onto Gordon when we told him, surrounded by utter darkness, that he was absolutely alone
I love that line! I love how it's paralleled when Bruce later tells the Joker he's alone
This was a great video, I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts. I would love to hear your thoughts about the Dark Knight Rises!
In particular, I liked how you focused on the moment when the Joker realizes that neither boat pressed the button before midnight. Its a quick moment and he quickly defects it by taking the matter into his own hands and making good on his threat to blow both boats up. When he reaches for his detonator we feel how Batman feels: afraid for the people on the boats, worried that their lives are in danger. If the boats explode for whatever reason, this is a loss for Batman, for the victims, and for the inhabitants of Gotham. That's what we focus on, but that's not the full story. The full story is that whether or not the boats blow up, this is a loss for the Joker, his first major loss.
If Batman and the police showed up and ruined his social experiment, then he could still claim that his philosophy was true, that deep down regular people are evil and all it takes is fear to expose their true nature. In this case, Batman and the police were not able to interrupt the experiment, nevertheless in the end neither of the boats pressed the button. The Joker's thesis didn't happen as he expected it to, believed it would, even NEEDED it to happen in order to justify his view of the world. These regular people were thrust into a fearful kill or be killed situation and yet they didn't kill each other, they didn't expose that deep down they were evil. If anything they exposed that deep down they're NOT evil, whatever their faults may be on the surface, that under pressure they are capable of leadership, nobility and restraint.
Sure, the Joker can kill them himself, but that wouldn't be a win for the Joker, even if it would be a loss for the rest of Gotham. The Joker lost the moment the clock struck midnight, the moment it was proven to him that his belief wasn't accurate, at least not in this case, but if he was wrong about this it begs the question what else he might be wrong about. You can see him waver, he is visibly shaken by this result. This is genuine chaos, not his manufactured organized brand of chaos when he sets up a situation for the sole purpose of FORCING his desired outcome to happen and pretend it was an unexpected chaotic outcome. This is the universe defying his expectations, something genuinely unexpected happening in spite of how unlikely it seemed to him. The Joker may thrive in and desire his version of organized chaos, but when people are able to remain calm and organized in spite of his chaotic influence, that resilience is genuinely disorienting to him.
That scene reminds me of a scene in the movie No Country For Old Men. If you haven't watched it, I recommend you do so now and avoid having someone like me spoil it (maybe you could make a video about that movie some day, I think that would be really fascinating and fun).
If you are ok with spoilers continue.
There is a scene in that movie where the antagonist character, who shares some things in common with the Joker, has his assumptions about the world defied. Like the Joker, he tries to deflect from this occurrence and act like nothing happened, but it is clear that he is deeply shaken by the event. It is the moment when a character who seems like an inhuman force of nature is suddenly made very human, vulnerable, and small.
I finished watching your video and I like the way you explained your thoughts about the characters. I think you perceived it well. I agree with most of what you said.
"Crazy" is a generalized social term used against those who are just different. The Joker knows what his deal is, in actual terms of what he's gone through and why he does what he does. He just doesn't like to be CALLED crazy.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Joker. When the world goes to hell.. civilization goes out the window. As a little taste of that, look what happened with TP? That was a very slight panic.. imagine something big like nuclear war.
Yoket and two face scenes in hospital
When he puts gun to his head yoker never looses control joker vinger is always on the top trigger
If you don't want to watch the world burn, you don't know how ugly it is.
Maybe we are all jokers , our inner instincts
Make a part 3 with the Dark Knight Rises!
Heath Ledger was a method actor which made his performance as great as it was. Jared Leto and to a lesser extent Joaquin Phoenix used the same technique in their portrayal of the character as well. Undoubtedly method acting can be bad for the actor's own mental health.
The joker represents the pinnacle of scheming and he looks down on, resents how useless this skill is to the human condition. He's terminally sane from his point of view. He sees Batman as representing the peak of reactivity to others schemes, one that was trying to get out of the way of society's scheme to put Harvey dent as a false representation of the societal contact being incorruptible. Ultimately, the joker loses because society just folds the jokers machinations into it's own.
I suppose had it been more true to politics, Batman would have kept his PHONAR network
@@o00nemesis00o : Batman has much to live up to, in print, on TV, and in the movies. Shaped by many forces. No wonder he's complicated as a character.
Harvey Dent.. . CAN WE TRUST HIM????
I love your videos and I have always been into psychology even though it was not my major. I never put much thought into analyzing movies or series now I do it constantly.
Funny part is it does get awkward, since I can not turn it off, when I voluntarily go to the psychologist office to work on things that I am catching myself analyzing me and the provider at the same time.
One bad day
Yes to the dark knight rises analysis!!!
Hobbes: life is nasty, brutish, and short.
That prisoner throwing that detonator out of the window is about as fake of a plot trope as a billionaire dressed as a fucking bat
I always thought that the Joker makes many different plans and then just goes with his gut feeling with which one he goes with
Last one to do what you are doing ended up loosing her license so be carefull man 😂😂😂
There isnt a soul on tgis planet that hasn't or will not be faced with a point in life of streching the truth bending the truth or just an out right lie ! 😮 joker will be saved 🙌
Great video. Please do the Dark Knight Rises.
What are you thinking? Batman did not intentionally kill Dent. He had very few options for saving Jimmy.
Batman: Order through fear
Joker: Chaos through joviality
This is why they're perfect opponents.
If not for Heath Ladgers performance Badman begins is the better Movie. However, I think this performance puts Dark Knight on top.
I've watched a lot of Dark Knight analysis videos over the years but this one still manages to point out new aspects of the film and the characters, which is astonishing.
Definetly will check out your other videos and future content :)
Don't worry if they get lengthy, people nowadays watch 4 hour discussions or ramblings about 2 hour movies or endless video game streams with some dude talking out of his ass.
I never saw it as the Joker trying to convince anyone to be him, I saw him trying to break down everyone.
Batman Interrogation - He was being honest with him. Bruce may have seemed like he was listening, but we all know that he despised him, Batman hates criminals, and assumes every criminal has the same motive, but he wasn't prepared for the Joker, something the Joker was keenly aware of. "You have all these rules and you think they'll save you", batman replies "I only have one rule" and the Joker treating that as a I got him says "Oooh and that's the rule you're gonna have to break to know the truth. The only sensible thing to live in this world is without rules and tonight you're gonna break your one rule."
And then after getting brutalized, the Joker tells him how he'll break that one rule "Killing is make a choice. You choose one life or the other. The brave district attorney or his brushing bride to be" and then after the next smack, you can see that the Joker is shoving in Batman's face that his efforts are pointless "You have nothing! Nothing to threaten me with. Nothing to do with all your strength" and in that instance, it was clear Batman would've gone further, but the Joker gives him a choice "Don't worry, I'm gonna tell you where they are! Both of them. And thats the point, you'll have to choose."
And while he told them their locations, the choice he gave him was "Which of them will you choose to die". If he chose to go after Harvey, then he'd be choosing to kill Harvey. But since he chose Rachel, he chose to kill Rachel. That was the point of "You'll have to choose".
The Joker isn't about convincing people, its about breaking them down, getting them to do things they wouldn't normally do.
Harvey - Obviously The Joker is the best schemer of them all. But his aim with Harvey wasn't about convincing him to be like him. It was once again breaking him down. He redirected his anger, made him turn his attention elsewhere. He knew that Harvey has fought the mob this entire time and planted the idea that it was them, not him. Harvey has been following the rules since the beginning, so the Joker twisted them, flipped his compass of right & wrong on it's head. No longer is Harvey the prosecutor, he's the executioner.
And when he told Batman "I took Gotham's white knight and I brought him down to our level. It wasn't hard." you gotta admit, he did take down Harvey with very little effort. Just like Batman in the interrogation, Harvey was unprepared for the Joker, and even worse, the Joker's words made sense to him. He broke Harvey, turned the arbiter of justice into a monster.
As for Batman having faith in Harvey, I don't think he truly believed what he told Harvey "You're the symbol of hope I can never be". I see that as more him trying to convince him, similar to how you'd tell a person "You're better than this", you don't really know that for sure, but it does tend to work with people who respect you. It tends to make them want to live up to what you say about them, a subtle encouragement tactic.
And while yes, he did wanna pass on the mantle & responsibility, I saw it as Batman NEEDING him to be what people saw him to be.
Harvey becoming Two-Face was the Joker's backup plan for his ultimate goal - Breaking Down Gotham. He was of course frustrated that his Ferry plan didn't work, he likely thought he had pushed the people of Gotham enough to get them to do what he wants. But if he failed, then "You didnt really think I would risk the battle for Gotham's soul, in a fist fight with you? No, no, you need an Ace in the Hole, mine's Harvey."
He knew that if Harvey's crimes ever came to light at the cusp of all this that the Joker had unleashed, it would break Gotham, and Gordon saw it at the end "People will lose hope."
It really drives home that quote about the Joker: "All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am: Just One BAD DAY."
Definitely want a Rising video. Haha
I’ve already seen essays on this but I still can’t stop seeking them out.This movie is a masterpiece.
It really is. For as successful as Marvel has been in cinema, none of their offerings comes close to this DC masterpiece.
@@DanLyndon yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
@@DanLyndon Yeah,what do we know.
@@DanLyndon "People who don't understand anything about art"
Or maybe it's subjective? Hmmm.
Really agree as great as this movie is written the acting is incredible
Joker HAD to be an ex-agent of military intelligence gone rogue, or a burn-out from at least one of the covert agencies. His tactical skills in planning and execution reeked of a Skunk-works operator...
CIA Joker
CIA Joker
Also no fingerprints. Some secret agents burn off their finger prints.
I think he had somewhat of a similar background to Bruce
I heard a theory that the Joker had the “clean slate” that Selina Kyle was looking for, which is how he was able to erase everything about him.
@@XpLiZiTcOnTeNt7 I was just thinking of that when watching TDKR.
If you re-listen to Alfred's monologue, it's revealed that Alfred and his buddies were the villians in that story.
???
@@ComicAcolyte because they were in Burma I guess ?? This dude knows nothing
@@yurigaviria6794 Alfred explains that he and his friends LITERALLY burned down the forest in Burma to find a jewel thief therefore Alfred was the real villain in Burma. He destroyed an ecosystem an possibly killed people and villages in the process
@@shadow1395100 ohhhhh lowkey that’s super smart
@@shadow1395100 yeah because trees don't grow back...stop getting your morals from crazy elites who ski all day and think that they're connecting with nature somehow in that process.
Also pretty sure they wouldn't be allowed to mindlessly kill the civilians merely to catch a jewel thief in MI6.
I would watch an edit cut of this film with just The Joker scenes. Heath Ledger just captivates. Every time I watch this movie it's purely for him.
Already done ;) m.ruclips.net/video/xGcfBRkJSWQ/видео.html
@@PsychSoldier756 Wow, an actually good link. Thanks bro
I always wonder how much of that is him and how much is his untimely death. His performance IS something else, but it seems like someone's last performance is always treated like this, even when their best performance was years earlier...
@@nicholashodges201 I don't know that this was Heath Ledger's best performance, but I will say that he is, to me, the definitive Joker. Others have carried the role, and carried it well, even greatly... but I feel like his portrayal touches on the heart of who and what the Joker is best.
@@therisenchampion2023 honestly, for me, it's actually Caesar Romero. Yeah the tv show was campy AF, but there was just something plain creepy about that Joker, and it's like the sillier he acted, the creepier he became.
Like in the next episode, you could find out he actually had an orphanage gassed while he was distracting batman with a dance of and it wouldn't be too much of a surprise.
This film was the epitome of "It ain't gonna get done unless you do it yourself." This trilogy of Batman wasn't the honed warrior psychopath the many versions of the comic character was. It was a guilt ridden man who did everything to alleviate himself of the guilt and was desperate for a successor.
This version of Batman doesn't have Robins and Batwomen. He is constantly alone. Won't train students and wants the system to take over his legacy.
He inevitably fails heavily but scrapes a win in the end.
The Nolan Trilogy was special and a noble effort and definitely a spectacle but even Christian Bale himself said that after seeing Heath Ledger's performance he wish he did better.
The Joker in this film is a hypocrite. He isn't insane or a chaotic entity, he is a calculating sociopath who received heavy trauma and seeks power through action.
He is a troll who sees Batman as a profile to ruin and "Wreck".
I respect this version of the Joker because of his intent and creativity but he is 100% sane. But the fact that this Batman couldn't interrogate or trace any gang member into finding the Joker's locale was odd but beneficial to the narative.
Let me guess probably he will need therapy?
I’ve seen Batman begins easily over 15 times (it’s my comfort movie) and probably the Dark Knight at least 10 times… but I’ve never made the connection of Bruce’s connection and adoration of Harvey dent being connected to his adoration of his father and the symbol he projected in Bruce’s eyes, yet… it makes so much sense upon realizing it and actually kinda addresses a few of the things I didn’t love about the Dark Knight. So thank you for this insight, it actually has changed how I view this movies upon another rewatch.
Ebony Tool Man Productions: Anthony Tony Russo and The Batman. QUAYAGE 🌎:1980 ( Tara Miller and Jonas Cates of Leyte, Phillipines)
Re the idea of the Joker's scars being self-inflicted, consider what he says to Batman after the ferry passengers don't blow each other up. (I'm quoting from memory.)
"You can't get good help these days. You have to do everything yourself. I always have. That reminds me... do you know how I got these scars?"
I always took that as a very strong hint that he gave himself the scars.
Could certainly be psychosis of trying to fit in but being abused like many institutions do for someone else's gain and becoming this rogue mercenary vigilante chaos agent pushing Society as an evolutionary catalyst.
Scars are metaphorical to his ability to adapt, overcome and transform just like that of the butterfly and mutilation transformation of cowboy bill in silence of the lamb.
As with the "I'm not wearing hockey pads" crack when the joker says "you're not one of them". There's a divergence where Batman and the Joker believe they're both right and engage in behaviour where they judge and intervene in the lives of others. Both believe the system has massive flaws that essentially then frees both to do as they please to those around them. In this way the Joker was more self aware than Batman. I think if you call him afreak you've walked into his trap, proved him correct about you so he can attack you. Batman believes he's allowed make viligante attacks but not other. The Joker starts out robbing the mafia, he actually dismantled at least one gang making them fight to the death. It's similar to viligante violence and lying to the population to preserve the image of Harvey Dent. They're doing what they want to cause society to behave how they want it to based on different goals, one to uphold the rules of a broken system by breaking the rules if that system and the other to show the population the system is broken by breaking the rules of that system.
One targets criminals, the other targets innocents
@@fatbitch7168 One can delude himself he's not breaking the rules of the broken because he makes a moral judgement on those he targets. They're using the brokeness and corruption inherent in the courts and police to make money which the billionaire finds morally unacceptable. Joker directly targets the cops and mobsters at head of the broken system.
Fantastic comment
This was a great and refreshing analysis. I love how you point out that there's something off about Harvey Dent from the very beginning and how Bruce sees too much of his father in him to the point where he's blind sighted by his fall, and the Joker's desire to externalize the chaos that's constantly present in his own head. It's been a while since I've heard some fresh takes on this movie, which I can't get enough of.
it kinda makes you wonder why would they call him Two-Face in the office besides from his coin game... could it be due to anything else? He might have been hiding darkness and aggression behind his intentions of doing what's right
Yes. I think Dent is a fallen hero story structure wise and they always have to be already somewhat corrupted before they fall all the way. This fits Harvey to a tee.
He is the top symbol of the Justice system in Gotham. He’s supposed to follow the rules. But instead he does whatever he feels is necessary to get the job done. Do what is necessary said Ra’s AlGuhl. The ends justify the means.
He asks Batman to follow Lau to China and kidnap him because he cannot legally extradite him. He lies and says he’s Batman at the press conference. Even the little things count like using his position of authority to secure a reservation at Bruce’s hotel / restaurant despite a three week long waiting list. The same one Bruce ceremoniously wrote a check to buy in Batman Begins, I’m guessing.
So yeah, there was something off about Harvey. He wasn’t as white a knight as he was credited to be. Meanwhile Bruce is the real White Knight.
Tidbit - Nolan gave an interview in which he said the title of the movie refers to BOTH Batman and Harvey - since Harvey falls…i.e. no longer the white knight by the end of the story.
Harvey put himself above the law he was supposed to be serving - and vengeance overtook him when he suffered a loss. Bruce suffered the same loss of Rachel and yet saves the man that killed her (Joker) from falling to his death to deliver true Justice as Rachel had preached to him in Begins. Stark contrast.
I love this whole trilogy. I’m pretty sure the overall theme, the common thread between the movies is the idea that how we choose to deal with death and grief is at least as important as how we choose to live our lives. People who saw Star Trek The Wrath of Khan will recognize that line.
Also, the best way to honor the lives of those taken from us is to live our own lives to the fullest in the present reaching forward to the future and not dwelling in the past or the loss. That is the theme from Gravity and other movies as well.
Clearly Bruce completes a character arc in learning to cope with his grief and guilt which allows him to move away from Gotham and pursue happiness and love.
Nolan / Bale’s Batman is the only iteration of the character to do so on the big screen. This is why Nolan is determined there won’t be a fourth. It would destroy Bruce’s arc. But if anybody could figure out how to bring Bruce back to Gotham Nolan could - if he wanted to.
Just bring Bruce back to mentor Blake or whoever else donned the cape in the canon. He can stay healthy minded and still serve his family’s legacy from “the chair in the Batcave”.
Okay that’s it. I could go on for days but …😂😂😂.
They couldnt explain harveys downfall because it would reveal that even "gothams white knight" and "the best of us" could be broken. In the eyes of gotham anyone could be broken...even batman, whos already an outlaw (we know he cant be broken but they dont)
Then again, Batman/Bruce have two faces????
If you ever get the chance, I would love to see your response to the Joaquin Phoenix version of the Joker :)
...not to dump more work on your plate
He already did one! It's great
@@zacharyfiske9218 ...oh good to know. Thanks. I'll go and find it :)
@Zachary Fiske I did technically do one but that was a rushed reaction as soon as I got out of the cinema. I intend to do something better one day
@@mylittlethoughttree I hope not. I really enjoy your work, but that movie just doesn't provide a lot beyond the surface. I find Joaquin's performance to be performative for the sake of his own appearance. Not for the character, or narrative.
2:55 not sure you noticed that the joker held the hammer down on the revolver when he gave the gun to Dent. That tells you he was always in control even when he was tempting Harvey Dent to kill him.
Maybe protecting Harvey's turn to the darkside was a little about protecting his image as the incorruptible white knight, but it was more about not allowing all the men Harvey had prosecuted a get out of jail free card. Their lawyers would have appealed all their sentences due to having a corrupt prosecuter who was "obviously" not shy about bending or breaking the law. I even think this was spoken about in DK.
If I'm perfectly honest, Nolan did as Nolan does in nearly all his projects, when you think of Nolan's Batman, you shouldn't think of three movies but three acts of a story, beginning middle and end.
And he fumbles at the end.
Though Gotham Knights is screwing it up something terrible, the smarter option to pick for this would be the Court of Owls, hell have it be a wink tie-in with the comic that comes out same year.
We've got everything set up, a 'peaceful and controlled society' that's a lie and Batman is shunned by the public and law, reinforce that with the people pushing it being the Court and have all major players that have gone through hell since tDK suffering because of their support to Batman.
Then include the remnants of the League of Shadows in Bane to have the chaos agents wanting to stop the people who Thomas Wayne was part of return to have Bruce at his lowest, broken and defeated, his entire life seeming to be a lie and then making himself the better man who forges on and defeats both while sacrificing himself at the end.
would've been better than a redo of the first movie
This joker had to be ex military/ex CIA
an important part of batman lore is municipal corruption and police incompetence, i.e. the official authorities. justice is left in private hands and powerful individuals can make their own laws, for better or for worse. in a moral reality such as this, you can say with some reason that the "good guys"wouldn't really want to solve gotham's core problems because without them, there's little justification for their role as saviors...
Joker was heath ledger….. an actor……not a crazy former soldier or anything else.
I never felt that saying “I’m not wearing hockey pads” meant that I am rich and your not. Batman mean and I think pretty clearly he is not an untrained person just running out into the street on raw emotion. He has spent years studying as seen in the first film and has used the money and expertise of Morgan Freeman’s character to build weapons and equipment the guy in hockey pads doesn’t have.
Youre the only person who gets it. hes not chaotic, random or "insane" but is driven by a deeply cynical philosophy about humanity he uses to justify his reign of terror _just_ like a terrorist. I saw this other theory that he mightve been a veteran which is what i personally thought when i first watched the film, i think at the very least its possible he felt betrayed by the society hes terrorizes which is why he cant be bribed or reasoned with because he doesnt want it's money. And i think the reason why hes sad during the ship scene is bc he would rather believe people are terrible monsters than see the truth about himself, that hes a broken man.
Anyway loved this video, not a psychology student but i look forward to learning more form your channel! ❤
Lmao "WHERE'S WALLY?" xD Huh?? that got me hahaha
Uh, yeah. Rachel is not herself because she is not played by Katie.
I think when he said he didn't have a plan he meant he doesn't have an end game he plans out battles as they come but he doesn't have an objective he just wants to disrupt things
I always felt the Joker began as a normal guy, but joined the military, probably a post 9/11 patriotic enlistment. Got PTSD, returned from war and his PTSD made him a social outcast. Add in the Glasgow smile pushed him over the edge. The Jokers motivation was to show that people will break, just like he did, given the circumstances, which he is trying to place into them. The ultimate revenge on society.
He didn’t poison the whiskey. He poisoned the glass.
That makes more sense, cheers!
Ahh he didn’t kill Ras al gul. He just didn’t have to save him.
Here from 2 years later, asking very politely for you to please finish your fantastic analysis of this trilogy.
Thanks.
I still think the whole ex military theory explains a lot
Deffo. Especially the way he was acting with military precision in the police parade. And his perchance of putting people in situations where you have mere minutes to make decisions that may not go the way you envision. And the perfect precision of the heists. Christ! Even his forever changing scars story reeks of psychological mind fuckery. Military for sure x
Sum fing.......really? What's happening to the English language?
22:26-ish "WHERE'S WALLY?!" gotta love AI generated subtitles, LOL
Nature is pretty chaotic.
We makes rules etc.
But we are part of nature
He got his scars by trying to be like his wife. But she saw him as a mirror. How does that explanation reflect the context in which he tells that story? If he is acting like a mirror to society and they can't stand the sight of him... The stories are commentary for the scene that the stories are in. He's saying that the rich people are scarred and ugly and he is just showing their true nature with his own actions.
Listening to you explain the Joker was very interesting. I've never really understood that character or why people like him, but I guess he's a modern version of Iago, and just destroys because he can, but at the same time he's looking to see himself reflected in those around him, wants to prove he's not unique. This was fascinating. I love your in-depth look at characters! :)
Always thought there was something similar between the two
I once heard from a psychologist who had dealt with abusers, and I might not get everything right because it was a long time. But he said that a common motivation of abusers to abuse, was not because they enjoyed hurting. But it was because they ultimately believed that everyone was rotten to the core, usually they were people who had suffered abuse themselves as a kid or something very traumatic happened, which had led them to see humanity with lots of cynicism.
So because they believed humanity was rotten to the core, them becoming an asshole and an abuser was justified, they were just rotten as everyone else. In their eyes, they were not bad, everyone was.
So seeing good people to them, it was infuriating because if they were not rotten, it meant humanity was not rotten, so it meant it was just them who were rotten. So part of the reason of abuse was due to anger, but another part was to see the abused snap and show their dark side, just to justify their worldview. To justify their acts, they needed to see others become rotten.
So maybe the Joker is like that.
The psychologist also mentioned that there was people who were precisely the same, but believed in the goodness of people. And often opposites attract. So it is very sad, because often, really good people will end up with abusers, the classic "I will change him/her".
It really depends the version. Often in comics he takes on a mythological Trickster role, in that there's some lesson or message he's trying impart through his violence & chaos. Or he's just opposing Batman because he "has to"
I like to think of it as more like, Joker knows the world is rotten to the core. BUT! He thinks it can be saved. The only problem being, that in order to be saved, whoever is doing the saving needs to know what's truly wrong.
And that's his job. Show anyone who can save the world just what's wrong with it.
Miss... The good guys... You like them and all that but if we like saved alllll the people in the world, provide them with everything they need, no more poverty, no more nothing.... Just enjoying life and making babies... Pretty soon this planet would run out of resources and space!!! We would ALL die!!! So actually being a 'good person' does not mean that you'll have a good outcome. It can be quite the opposite!!! It can lead you to the end of times actually! So you probably didn't liked the Joker because you bought that goody 2 shoes stuff and never thought much about it. So your 'existential building' cannot conceive such a fundamental flaw for the sake of structure. Because that building can come crashing down and you don't want to rebuild it because it's too much work. That's why Joker loves chaos in many ways. because IT IS a process of destruction and rebuilding alllll the time. That can drive most people insane... Because the second they lose their fundations they no longer can operate objectively in the world. They don't know what's right or wrong anymore! Which is harder to know in fact because Right or Wrong isn't just about what you think... It's about Time and how things will fall into place. Which are out of control most of the times. There's room to love Chaos because there's surprise and out of ordinary results in it.
Joker makes fun of Batman because... There's not much of a point for being a good OCD person. Things ultimately are out of control anyways. Batman is just an idiot operating under a false narrative. Although.... Doesn't mean Joker is 100% right and true. Because total chaos or letting things fall into absolute chaos is not a good thing either. Batman and Joker are 2 extremes that cancel each other out. As long as they believe in their stuff... That will last forever
I don't always pick a perfect actor for a part, but Heath IS the Joker.
What a load of nonsense! You spent most of the video talking about Batman.
Just say A psychoanalyses of Batman part 2.
These movies suck!!!! George Clooney was a better Batman....
I always thought they should have brought Harvey back for the 3rd movie. He survived the fall and Gordon was hiding him away in Arkham.
Do the Dark Knight Rises!!
In a way Batman is the villain because of you rather put a mask on what's actually going on like putting a bag over something ugly well the joker rather have it show it's true colors instead of hiding like Batman and everyone else on the planet maybe wrong and how he's doing but he's trying to prove a point
In all of us, two opposing forces wage an eternal war, representing the greatest forces in the human psyche: Bats and Clowns.
The winner will be the one you feed.
Gotham allowed Harvey Dent to prosecute known mafia associates without warrants (or something like that), and if the truth of Dent came out all the mafia members would be released. So the stakes were a lot more that simply 'letting down Gothamites'