IS GOKU AN ANTI-HERO? | A Dragonball Discussion
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- Goku has been acting weird in the Universe Survival Arc of Dragon Ball Super; more so than usual. What's causing this? Is it a sign of Goku's evolution into an anti-hero? Or was he one from the very start?! Today we discuss this as well as Toriyama's original desires for his main character's persona.
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I know this will never happen, but I really want an amazing scene where Goku hops onto the flying nimbus... but falls through. It would be amazing symbolism for how selfish he's become. I know he was always like that, but now that it has universal consequences, him being pure of heart makes no sense. I just don't like the "real" Goku and I would love Goku to have a big revelation after he falls through the nimbus.
He rode the nimbus a few episodes ago, so apparently the nimbus doesn't think Goku is selfish
@lLiz Lee but Roshi couldn't ride the nimbus because he was a pervert, and he didn't feel any guilt about it, and the Nimbus refuse to let him ride.
I had a similar thought about that a while back, which then lead to an idea for a story arch: after Goku realizes that he has let evil creep into his heart, he asks Piccolo to teach him the Evil Expulsion technique that Kami used to expel Piccolo Daimou from himself. This creates a Demon Goku (i thought it'd be funny to call him Godaimou), who is basically the embodiment of all of Goku's negative, selfish traits and desires. It would be cool to have Goku and Godaimou have distinct physical differences just like how Piccolo Daimou and Kami had theirs (and eventually Piccolo Jr).
As for what Godaimou would do, the best I could come up with was he kills Supreme Kai to "defeat" both Beerus and Whis and get them out of his way, then tries to gather strong followers kind of like how Goku gathered strong friends and rivals around himself. He would then use them to try and gather the Super Dragon Balls to wish himself into becoming the new God of Destruction, and as the new God he would hold tournaments on planets to decide if they live or die, starting with Earth (or maybe a few minor planets and build up to Earth as the climax). Is it too much like the Cell Games? Maybe, but then again Cell was part Goku.
Now that you mentioned that, itmight actually help determine when his purity escaped him. I hate to admit it but everything he said in the video is accurate. It would be insanity to watch him fall though but also something most of us could never see coming
Well hte nimbus responds to those pure of heart. And so if taken literally, it doesnt necessarily mean pure good. If Goku has always been, and is simply continuing ot be, the pure, innocent in his own desires character we've known him to be, he could still be considered pure of heart, and in his own subjective morality, just not something that we agree with him on. Afterall, if killing is wrong, and Goku has killed before, then that should keep him off the nimbus. If lying is wrong, and Goku lied to Chichi all hte time about Gohan training, and his own training, then Nimbus should have dropped him by now too. As far as Goku is concerned, he's never wavered on his morals, and to this day lives by his pure desires. IT's jsut that there is an increasingly visible discrepancy between hi pure desires and what we would consider to be morally justified.
Goku's selfish behavior is going WAY too far. Between his inability to remember the seal for Zamasu and him starting an entire universal destroying tournament because he's bored is taking the character way too far.
Agreed
except he never realized that the tournament would end with universes being destroyed, that was only learned AFTER he asked about it. and the seal was also partially Roshi's fault, since he was the one who was giving it too him.
Gackt4awesome I always thought it was Roshi who forgot to give him the Mafuba seal. At least the episode implied it that way.
Gackt4awesome I mean he almost destroyed the world when he gave Cell the senzu bean, and spared Vigita and Freeza...
Gackt4awesome probably his sayian blood is kicking it
"Goku wasn't intended to be a hero, but I'm going to give him a magical cloud that can see into a person's soul and reject them if their heart isn't purely good."
wut
Nimbus isn't purely good. It's simply pure of heart. Hell general tao was on it once and he damn sure isn't good.
But pure of heart doesn't nessecarily mean you're good.For example look at the way i believe taoist view pure of heart(I don't exactly have good memory but there's different ways to interpret it)
Tao was on a completely different form of the Flying Nimbus, I think. Karin gave Tao a Dark version of the Kinto Un (Flying Nimbus) when Tao leaves his tower to prevent him from getting any stronger. The Dark cloud is only for those with negative thoughts, iirc.
Don't forget the bit with Vegeta mentioning that his heart (when he was more than a little evil) was still "pure" enough to go Super Saiyan.
Joseph Kerr Not purely good, just pure
Goku technically isn't evil since he doesn't intentionally hurt people he doesn't have to
But he isn't good either
That is still pure as in not evil
Vegeta achieved SSJ in the Cyborg Saga. Was he pure of heart tho?
I dont think he's an ANTI-Hero, he's just very very very reckless.
+Geekdom101 Yo Geekdom, what's up man ? :D
agree
Geekdom101 facts and he never claim to be a hero he is a WARRIOR
Geekdom101 Goku = Beast Mode simply because of the Sayian need to complete.
Notice his manipulation of Beerus when "playing" with The Button.
right now Goku is not taking the universe destruction rule very seriously believing he would wish them all back but i wonder how he would feel when a universe actually gets destroyed because of him i'd like to see his reaction when he sees countless innocent people dying because of his recklessness
Vegeta is getting softer and less self centered with his daughter on the way and Goku is getting harder and less caring. Interesting switch. Goku may have only ever wanted to fight but he never wanted that to kill his friends in the process. He was never willing to sacrifice others for his fun. We are seeing some real change here.
'Healing Cell, and letting him beat on his kid.' Yeah..
Me: Maybe GT should happen.......
Everyone else: NO! SHIT! This HAS to STOP!!!
'NO GT was far worse than this by 1000 fold.
@@Darkphoenix3450 GT at its worst is twice as good as Super at its best.
Jerid Glasspoole He didn’t do that for his son to get beat up. He did it because he wanted Gohan to awaken his potential because he knew Gohan was the strongest at the time. And turns out he was right. So what Goku did was not wrong at all. It’s like taking training wheels of your son’s bike because you know he can ride a bike without them.
I'm my opinion It's not Goku the Hero, but Goku the righteous Warrior. Goku is a warrior with a pure heart. He's not a superman type hero he is a fighter who wants to continue to improve his skills but if you ask him for help, he'll help you (examples being when trunks comes to the past to warn him of his heart attack and the androids in the android saga and when Trunks asked for help with Goku Black). But do to him being Saiyan his love for fighting gets the better of him. Like in the universal survival arc, Goku is surprised about the elimination stipulation but doesn't dwell on the negative and gets pumped up for the tournament. But he also agreed to take responsibility and pick the remaining fighters for universe 7. So I suggest to the Goku fans like me, don't think of him as a proper hero, but as a righteous warrior who will fight for his friends and the earth, but his warrior blood gets the better of him and sometimes accidentally cause a problem.
"I am the hope of the universe, I am truth" would be simply put aside?
Ankle Drew
That was the funimation dub. That isn’t the true Goku. If you want the true Goku in Z, watch the Japanese Dub or the Kai Dub.
Gukes no hea
gokus no hero
I couldn´t agree more with you and actually I like that about Goku.This world is full of good heroes that fight for justice.It´s nice to variety.
Ok to make shit more simple, in Super Goku is more saiyan while Vegeta is more "human" and that´s the irony.
The Bolt Thrower
It is.
Isn't VEGETA supposed to be the bigger asshole in this relationship.
The Bolt Thrower Well your right goku going to get stronger and vegeta saying he wants to stay with bulma because bra they kind of did switch
The Bolt Thrower which makes sense. Vegeta has been spending time with his family and trying to be a father/settle down. Goku has had children but honestly dosnt care about them. He is only concerned with becoming stronger.
Xeno Gamer20 ehh vegeta still training
Michael Mayers Not as much though. He chose to stay for Bra's birth. Just to compare, he didnt do that with Trunks in Z. Vegeta *is* more "human", while Goku is more Saiyan. He's practically doing what he was meant to do before he bumped his head, but on a Universal scale.
Kinda sucks to think that people could die just because some guy in Universe 7 wanted a fight.
+Fresh Prince of Evil Very true.
Fresh Prince of Evil its zenos stupid idea of destroying the universe , goku just wanted the tournament and thats all he wants
based on what beerus said zeno is the true danger cause he can wipe out everything like the 6 universes he wiped out before he met goku... probably in the end of this saga zeno will be the villain
and goku cant wish the universe back because that might piss off the zeno(s) and they might erase him or everything and start over
Lady Zeno is the strongest nothing other than himself can destory him unless it is the super Dragon balls even then no one knows if the Dragon can grant that wish even though the balls have been said to grant ANY wish.
I like the idea of Goku becoming the villain especially with how Vegeta has been evolving into a hero. It would be interesting for them to have a final confrontation but with each being the opposite of how they were when they first fought.
YES THIS SO MUCH THANK YOU
deathgnomes shit they did it to all the rest of the super heroes. make them go through something.evil. but he would have to come back. because ppl of the internet would b to mad about that.
This idea of Dragon Ball Super ending with how Dragon Ball Z started would be absolutely "romantic."
It would definitely show the overall character development...
deathgnomes it makes so much sense because everything vegeta did was his choice and his alone like not killing everyone on earth when he came back while goku had to have his head hit to be the goku we all know and this happened to black because he really didn't know about a saiyan's and goku's body so it was really fast for black to change while goku is going more slowly since that is his body
The Rogue. that would be a great ending goku going so insane that vegeta has to kill his former rival eventhough it could be a dark ending. Now that I think about it goku now seems more like goku black with loving to fight only and not killing the enemy just to get stronger
Goku is not a bad guy, he's not a good guy...he's THE GUY.
D180223 wow roman reigns much
What's the difference between Goku and Roman Reigns?
Roman always kicks out at two.
Masako watches WWE?
lol that was perfect.
Geekdom101 hi geekdom
Goku is not a hero. He's simply a Saiyan who wants to get stronger.
Brian Ofori
It seem more apparent after every episode of Super
Well pretty much from Dragon Ball Goku has always just wanted to get stronger and fight more people. It's all his life is really.
He's always been like that.
Brian Ofori does this makes you feel bad?
Brian Ofori correct the peaple he kills just happen to be villaians
*Puts universe up as buy in for a fighting tournament.*
"is Goku becoming a liability here?" ...
Here is something to consider. In regards to the Black Goku Arc, I now wonder if Goku deliberately forgot the seal for the demon sealing technique, just so that he could fight Zamasu....
No, he just really forgot simply because he forgot, remember he didn't choose to fight Zamasu, he asked Vegeta who he wanted to fight, Vegeta said Goku Black, so Goku fought Zamasu.
thats interesting but that makes me wonder why he would practice the technique rather than train like vegeta
DSWynne I think it's more subconscious than that but I believe ur on the right track. He forgot the seal cuz he didn't feel like remembering. cuz if he did it wouldn't be as fun
DSWynne
DSWynne Wow after reading and thinking about it that makes sense, I came to the conclusion Goku cares more about fighting than family and even food, in Super he tried to take on Beerus when they first met, he even 2 tournaments where in 1 all losing universes will be destroyed, he hired Hit just to fight him, he doesn't give two shits about what Beerus said that he shouldn't mess with Zeno, he didn't kill Black Goku when they first met instead just testing his power, doesn't care about Bulma being pregnant and wants Vegeta to leave with him to train, I feel like Goku from Super is more ridiculous than his Z counterpart.
So... what you're saying is... the depiction of Goku in DBZ:A is actually closer to Toriyama's vision.
Toriyama's Goku would have not been as popular.
Goku's going to be the villain by the end of this series.
Vegeta's gunna be the hero.
Straight up switching roles.
Goku Black was just a foreshadow of what's coming.
ADAAMantium You dont see the end of Z. Super is a prequel of the battle of uub vs goku in the WT.
ADAAMantium i doubt it would happen
i dont think vegeta will become an angel but goku becoming a god of destruction would be cool
Rai2788 That is a good theory man.
El tipico stormtrooper they will probably just retcon that, there is no way uub can go toe to toe with Goku like he does at the end of Z at this point. He and vegeta are on a universal scale
I bet that Goku told Zeno to say that he will destroy the universe to make them fight to their fullest.
that would be an interesting twist. it's extremely simple but nobody even thinks of this possibility
He did once by hiring Hit to kill him, why not again for the tournament.
Mosa Faye Well the guy hired someone to kill him just to fight said killer at his strongest. So I can believe it lol
Mosa Faye Possibly... but there's a reason why even Beerus is scared of Zeno.
Mosa Faye What if the Grand Priest is just making them scared because Beerus asked him to scare Goku into taking him seriously?
Vegeta has been on earth for a round 10 years and has adapted so much better than Goku who has lived on earth his whole life
Super's bad writing as usual.
Or Goku's idiocy. Could be either.
Martin Papos Goku got smarter and DB and DB super contradicts that
they want you to chalk up gokus intelligence to him only getting a basic education from Master roshi. while Vegeta most likely had a more formal education being a prince in all. DBS really needs to stop making Goku ride the extra short bus he may be dense in subjects but in db/DBZ wasn't completely Ultra short bus material like they make him now.
MGStarfire actually more like 17 years. 1 year after being wished back to life and then Earth from Namek (him searching for Goku was filler), 3 years training for Androids, 7 years between Cell and Buu, and 6 years between Buu and tournament of Power.
I see Goku in the same camp as Luffy from One Piece. Luffy wants to be a Pirate King, that means being the strongest in the sea, if he happens to walk by a country that needs his help, he MIGHT help, he isn't a hero, he said it himself. Goku is behaving the same, he wants to get stronger, he wants to surpass the gods and this tournament is his key to do it.
Luffy doesn't want to be a hero cause he don't wanna share his meat.
Blaze Rom lol Luffy is acting like Goku not the other way around
Doesn't matter the order, i just pointed out they are behaving the same now, Funimation might have messed up things a bit with the dub in Z so maybe it wasn't that obvious by now.
Ah ya beat me to it Aniket.lol
Blaze Rom GOKU wants to over throw the omni king
*We always knew Goku's appetite for a good fight gets him and others in danger.*
Allowing *Vegeta* and *Frieza* to live are prime examples, although allowing Vegeta to live was a positive in the end but could have easily spelled doom for the Z Fighters and the universe.
Currently, Goku's *appetite* for a *good fight* has put *all of existence* at risk and to be honest, he doesn't seem to even care.
So no, Goku is *not a hero* anymore, he's a *fight hungry martial artist.*
Are you trying to give me PTSD.
Rokkar tbh that's way more interesting to watch then a bland perfect but somewhat ignorant good guy character
Vegeta could´ve easily killed gohan, krillin and bulma on namek tho (or even went back to earth and destroy it). He´d get killed by the ginyu force and later on the same would happen to goku (because of ginyus body change). It could´ve gone wrong in a lot of ways.
Yeah except that Goku would have just stopped him on Namek. At that point Vegeta was pretty outclassed by Goku.
ginyu force would kill vegeta before goku so goku would be the only one left and would die on namek
Goku seemed to care alot when zamasu told him that he killed goten and chi chi so it seems that he still cares for everyone and even the people closes to him
Agent Deception the universes were going to get destroyed anyways, Goku gave at least one universe a chance to go on. If you met the actual god and he said "i was going to destroy 5 continents cause 7 is too many... but it would be fun to see the 5 play a game together...winner is not destroyed" no matter how you feel the only thing you could say is "ok" goku is a character that just accepts that fact only after a moment of shock.
Agent Deception so get your info correct before you call someone out idiot
@Agent Deception FOR HEAVEN SAKES can't you you accept the the GOOD things Goku has done even though he is a bit selfish.
@Agent Deception He Make the T.O.P. So Other Universes has a Change to survive. Since Zeno Was Gonna erase the weak Universe Anyway
I don't actually think Goku's changed much as a character since Z or Super began. The only difference is us. Whether it be through dubisms or childish naivete, we've been more ready and willing to excuse the really awful things Goku has done in the past, like how he ends every confrontation with a villain going, "I'm going to let you go so you can get stronger and maybe kill even more of my friends the next time you show up!" or, "I'm going to make my pacifist son fight this monster and get beaten nearly to death before his anger issues kick in!" Back then, we'd assume Goku was right because Goku's the designated protagonist and he can do no wrong, and we can look back and see that that stuff almost always worked out for the better, so why would we criticize those blatantly terrible decisions?
But now we don't have any of that left. We're older and we can look critically at his actions and go, "That's pretty fucked up." There's no Super Saiyan 2 waiting around the corner for when he foolishly runs off to fight Black without any Senzu beans, and there's no grand threat to the multiverse that they can only take on in the Tournament of Power. It's a perfect storm of his bad habits and foolishness colliding with events that either wouldn't happen without his bad judgement or that he created himself. They might be playing up certain traits more than usual now, but they've all been there since the start. We're just seeing them in a more sinister (maybe even more realistic) light now.
Bob Logical The thing about letting Gohan fight is because he knew he was going to eventually fall against Cell. Gohan displayed Ssj2 in a second while they were training, so Goku thought: "I could put that anger to use, if I can't beat him, you will."
Bob Logical and with Frieza he thought he was dead and with Buu he was there for just one day if he beat Buu and someone else came the earth would be fucked cause Piccolo and Vegeta were the strongest so if like hirudegarn was cannon they'd get fucked
SSJ 1K no, supers goku is really the goku at his worst.
That was a stupid decision he clearly demonstrated that he didnt know his own son peculiarities and even give cell a senzu just for the fight to be fair, if he continued to fight till he was exausted he could bring cell down to the level that trunks or vegeta could have fought him
He didnt thought Frieza was dead he first didnt finished him off just because he wanst worthy of that, and even mellowed enough to help him after hearing his cries, and with buu he could have fused again and readily overpower it with vegito but again "i want to fight stronger guys" came into play and he fucked up once more crushing the potara
Goku never concidered Gohan, Goten, Chi Chi as a friends.
We havent seen what was happening before time-skips or what does goku do before bed with chi chi ( Who knows maybe there doin 69 ;) ) Seeing that chi chi never even had a real boyfriend how can you know that she and goku even knew how to kiss.If you watch whole series, and what Goku did during it, you can see that goku concidered Grandpa Gohan as a family.He cried when he saw him after fight betwen them was over.Then lets skip to Saiyan saga.Goku was always around Gohan , we can even see in Cell saga cell games in chi chis memories Goku was always near his son, and lets not forget that Goku wanted a FAMILY vacation with HIS family day before cell games!
If Goku was selfish like you people say he would take down cell on his own, but no, he wanted Gohan to fight(which to me he wanted Gohan to finally conquer his fears of weakness, which he did beating cell)
Dragon Ball Super may destroyed Goku but even in there we can see Goku showing sum love to Goten, Gohan and later Pan, and let's not forget how Goku was pissed when Zamasu told thim that he killed his family.He was mad like Vegeta for Bulma xD.
So for all of yall who think that Goku is dumb selfish and careless,
Think again!! :)
Omega Gaming Club yo this made me happy I've been dealing with their shot all this time
Omega Gaming Club You can be selfish and still have empathy. Goku has shown amazing amounts of selfishness in the past, but also moments of great passion for his friends and family.
You point out how he let Gohan fight Cell, but you forget that he forced Gohan to fight in the first place, despite knowing how Gohan felt about fighting and not being sure Gohan could actually survive such a fight.
not only that but he gave cell a senzu lol. Ik it can be interpreted that he was confident of gohan bla bla bla but that's being pretty selfish if you ask me
that's not selfish you have to remember goku is a full blood saiyan. what do saiyan's do? they fight they respect others who are strong that's why goku gave cell a senzu because he respects gohan's strength enough for him to think that gohan can beat cell at full power
It can still be interpreted as selfishness. Fully healing the guy who you are all trying to beat whois the strongest one, the guy who's going to destroy your planet and kill your loved one is a big decision. He could've gotten everyone's consent, or at least asked gohan the one who was going to fight him. He didn't care and did it anyways, even if it was out of respect it's still selfish. Gohan was Earths last hope and fully healing cell did not help them at all
#ZamasuWasRight
i love this xD
lmao sooooo true
😂
Yes he did, dumbass! He murdered innocent people! Goku doesn’t directly kill anyone innocent, at least not on purpose.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Abridged goku is smarter then dragon ball super goku
No
+Mr SauceEmUp Well he did manage to trick Whis, who is a very smart guy, so I wouldn't exactly call him stupid.
Mr SauceEmUp abridged is just people messing up your favorite anime
5327indarkness is argue that abridging can both enhance and breathe new life into the series
5327indarkness duh. Its a parody.
This direction in how to write Goku has been one big problem I've had with Toriyama revisiting the series. I still remember how impressed I was watching Goku's development in the Buu arc when he helped teach the Fusion dance to the kids, then faces Buu to give time for the others. The original anime, for all the filler, the dub, and even GT, went out of the way to make Goku seem to mature as a person while still keeping that child-like innocence and good heart. And now, with Super, all that development has been tossed aside for a "Goku is a moron" joke. Even with Goku's desire to fight stronger opponents, he's not so braindead to not realize that he's put everyone and everything at risk, at least back in the Z era. Even on Kai and in the manga, he shows some signs of maturing due to Toriyama having written it so long. This is one reason that Super is hard to get into for me. It often feels like Toriyama and Toei have been away from the characters so long they're forced to go to broad stroke ideas of the characters to write them.
Ksawarrior I agree I don't like super for the one purpose goku isn't goku he's not the goku I knew back In DBZ or GT in those he was funny at times but got serious when it was time I'm sticking to z and GT I've tried with super but I can't get into it.
He's not the Goku you know but he IS the Goku that was suppose to be.
Then quite simply... Its not the Goku I want. I hate to say it but... GT was better.
I think evil goku that would have to be killed is gunna be wonderful for the story. Thing is killing him won't be enough.
If you follow the story of Sun Wokung, the "Immortal Monkey King". you would know he becomes humbled and more disciplined later on. In Sun Wokung, he was imprisoned for 500 years and during that time-span A sage (In this case of DBS, .the Grand Priest?) creates a headband that can not be removed, if Sun misbehaved the headband would shock him and it would hurt like hell. After the imprisonment and mentoring by the Sage, Sun becomes truly humbled and stronger than before, just more disciplined and taught.
Compare that to Goku, he wouldn't be imprisoned for 500 years but he would have to put that headband on and gets punished for his stupidity but in the process he becomes extremely humbled and less egoistical, but even more powerful to even take on God's with no help. His long thirst would be satisfied and he learns to always find someway to keep himself busy. Something revolving around training, mostly. If they are taking the Sun Wokung route, I understand why they did this and I would fully satisfied because Sun himself gains angel-like qualities (Or would Goku become one..?) through that mentoring from the Sage (Grand Priest?). If it follows correctly, the angels become under attack and Goku helps out, and gets rewarded for his efforts (Longer life-span or Immortality like Roshi?... plus True God Essence?) to continue to do good. If that's the case. this pretty good writing.
I don't like original Japanese goku I grew up on dragon ball z and the English hero version of goku and it's always inspired me. However learning about Japanese goku I was like "alright" and I was ok because at least he cared somewhat for people but in SUPER he is just so selfish it makes me uneasy it's like watching someone I idolize be corrupted by everything and it makes me sad. I realize that's how he always was in Japan but in the US he was a hero to me.. idk maybe it's just me not being able to get into it
It's fine if you prefer the guy that doesn't exist/superman goku. I grew up with dub myself but i kinda already realized in general goku's selfish and dumb move decisions in general like the cell senzu bean. In super he was the same but progressively seems to be getting more selfish
digit118 Just stick to the dub then
@Salem That's alot of what I think it is too. There are so many instances in which Toriyama himself betrayed his supposed vision of Goku by writing him as someone who does something because it's right and wants to, not has to.
I have always hated Goku because of the fact that despite these traits, he was always held on a pedestal. But I actually like where this is going from a narrative standpoint.
Goku is a Saiyan who was raised as an Earthling, who, as he matures, is slowly becoming more like a Saiyan.
Vegeta is a Saiyan who was raised as a Saiyan, who, as he matures, is slowly becoming more like an Earthling.
They are perfect foils of each other. Yin and Yang.
From a narrative standpoint this is pure poetry. The two exist to balance each other. As one stumbles, the other will stand. This is leading to a very interesting inevitability. If the story follows this structure, we should end up with another confrontation between the two. A direct revisiting of their original battle in the Saiyan Saga. But this time with the rolls reversed.
That sounds really really cool
"Kakarot, allow me to remind you, what you once taught me"
*They assume their Saiyan Arc stances*
i am a fan of goku but really i like vegito and i dislike that goku is treated like a hero on the same level as superman.
The Dub Goku is superior. And besides DBS ruined Goku's character. You can't hate Goku because of DB super's incompetence.
+Jedisupersonic Lol that gave me the chills :O
Well, they make him more stupid in Super... In Z he cares about Earth, Gohan, Goten, ChiChi and all friend, but here he only cares about fighting and getting stronger.
I hate him in Super.
what? in super he's shown to care about earth in bog, and especially chichi and goten when he gets mad at black. Also he did a lot of shit that literally threatened the earth to destruction by letting vegeta live, trying to spare frieza(which could've biten him in the ass) wanted to fight the androids instead of finding them and gave cell, without the consent of anyone else, a senzu. Lucky for him, all of that worked out in the end, thus we don't think bad of it.
Prince of Freeze yeah right when he let's his sons die in the buu arc he has been like this from the beginning
No thats the Japan version, the english dub version of Goku actually cares and all of that stuff. If you watched dbz in Japan , he doesnt give a fuck about anyone, just a fight.
It's not that Goku doesn't care about his the earth or his friends and family, he does, its just that like a Saiyan, fighting really is the only thing he focuses on, Toriyama wanted Goku to be someone who indirectly saved the world, not because he truly wanted to. Should a villain harm his friends, of course Goku will be angered(Frieza killing Krillin, Black killing Goten and Chi Chi), but he fights for the sake of fighting and growing stronger, nothing else.
vegeta is turning into goku and goku is turning into vegeta
Is it possible that Goku isn't take the whole destruction of the universe thing seriously because of the super dragon balls. It would fit his character of being the simply answer to a problem while everyone else around is to busy looking at the picture.
I'd say for America he'd be an antihero, but for Japan, he'd be hero. DBS Goku is fundamentally the same as manga Goku. A guy who has heroic qualities but also does almost everything for the thrill of the fight and his own purely selfish needs to satisfy himself with a good fight and to get stronger.
The only difference between the two are: Super's Goku does sometimes amp up his characteristics, which gives people legitimate reasons to hate him as of current, but the Goku we see in Super here with the Subs is pretty much the same for the most part as the Goku from the manga. Many of his actions in the manga are literally just as selfish as the actions he's made in the last two episodes of Super.
(1) He spared Vegeta for no other reason but for his purely selfish reason to fight him again. (2) He gave a Cell a senzu bean and chose not to tell Gohan of his plan as he wanted to make it a fair fight. (3) He threatened Supreme Kai's life and chose to fight Vegeta saying that he'd end it quick, but instead decides to fight Vegeta in SSJ2 instead of SSJ3, making Goku part of the reason Boo was released. (4) Afterwards, he leaves Goten and Trunks to clean up a mess he's 50% responsible for starting. (5) Hell, with Kid Buu, he straight up refused to fuse again simply because he wanted to give Buu a fair chance. Yes, he wanted to give the guy who cannot be reasoned with and had just obliterated your planet killing your own children a fair chance to fight. Goku really isn't all that much different than from what he was in Z, unless of course you've been growing up with the Dub of Z. As most of us have, he comes off as drastically different when in actuality he isn't a different character, but the Dub had made him Japanese Superman, when in reality he's just a selfish man who fights to have a good fight. He has heroic qualities, but being a hero is not his priority, he's more so a hero by circumstance because all the guys he wants to fight are worse people in comparison (as in they want to destroy the world, enslave the universe, etc...).
Harvey Noble its actually even worse with kid buu, the old kai and vegeta and even goku himself implied that if they fought together against kid buu they can beat him easily but chose to go in turns. Although vegeta is also to blame here. Also dont forget the Androids, after Trunks warned them about the Androids he supported Vegeta's ultimatum that he will kill anyone that tried to stop Gero from completing his Androids because he want to fight the Androids too despite the danger they poses and Trunks's warning that the Android did kill EVERYONE in the future.
Harvey Noble Actually is American Dub make him Superman while Japan and International make him Anti-Hero. Man, you mess All dubs
Harvey Noble Oo so the english dubs changed the dialogues. I have never watched the english dub and when I watched the video, i kept wondering, "isn't he always like that?" lmao
Goku is the new Black
Not sure what to put
Ahhhh you!
(sitcom music plays)
Or how about (i hate the films and will never watch them but) 50 darker shades of goku.
wesker100000000 Not that good
Krillin is the most heroic Dragon Ball character. So heroic that he becomes a police officer to save people even though he knows he can handle any threat on earth. (Human threats like guns ect)
i think Goku has always been an antihero but he had the guidance of the good guys to keep him on their side. Have you noticed all the good guys tend to sway Goku back on track when he messed up some way shape or form?
Meatdevoured but wasnt it more influence from gohan that changes piccolo and bulma's kindness that changed vegeta? i could give you Frieza...but then again Goku did almost spare him too. And he still sort of survived that. It was actually future Trunks that had made sure he was dead dead on earth.
Yeah. As far as heroism goes, Vegeta & Piccolo have Goku beat. AND THEY USED TO BE GENOCIDAL MONSTERS!!
i am actually really happy if goku turns out to be the "villian" of this arc, could make for interesting development.
but the execution of this would be kind of difficult
but none of them were actual goku, and i mean it in the sense that Goku will be seen as the villian, not actually be evil, just seen as the villian by all the other universes looking at him as an evil force they need to stop.
Kanji kid having the actual good guy goku be perceived as the antagonist would be interesting to me because he's not evil but he's the one causing all these bad things to happen. most of the universes will see him as a villain now because he suggested this so how they treat him will be very cool
Not really, he just needs to keep doing what he's doing. I imagine maybe when the other universes find out that they are going to be destroyed if they lose, they might come up with some plan of action to stop the tournament so they all survive, and Goku can get mad saying he wants to finish the tournament so he can find out who's the strongest in all the universes, and basically turning on everyone else. I imagine if Vegeta sides with the others in stoping the tournament and has to fight Goku to stop him, making him the hero and Goku the villain... that... would be the most perfect thing ever.
If you mean another Evil!Goku arc, that's been covered already. If you mean that the other universes learn just who started this chain reaction that put their lives on the line, and in their eyes, Goku's the villain, then that would be sweet!
Goku is still as carefree as he always was. He may be thinking he will be able to either sway Zeno into not destroying the loosers´ universes, or use the super dragon balls or something :/
There's however one flaw. He actually did care when Zamasu killed his alternate time line family.
It was the same rage he expressed when Krillin died to Tambourine and Freeza.
alcatrazvongola no it was worse cause he didn't just get mad he got a Rage boost and those are something else
Mr Tobi1018 i would be mad if my property was damaged
Seriously, that moment when Goku mad about knowing Zamasu kill his alternate family, according to DB logic, Goku should have unlock new transformation. But for the sake of plot, they didn't do it this time...
Mady Sham I feel like he would have if he watched his family die.
Fully blaming Goku would be the same as accepting zamasu's logic on how if trunks never went to the past his universe would still be there. He casued something indirectly. imo his character isn't changing.
mattventrs no it's different. Trunks could've NEVER foreseen Zamasu being a thing when he initially time traveled. Where Goku DEFINITELY could've seen Zeno pulling the things he's pulling coming aways away, and was even warned by Beerus. More importantly he doesn't actually seem to care about what he's done mostly unlike Trunks
Not that much different trunks was messing with time, you don't think bad things could come from that?
No not really, nobody expected Zeno to use these rules, only because of the spoilers the people are going wild on him. We knew the rules before they were even announced in the show. i swear Toei needs to manage their episode synopsis better.
Kevythekevlar No, he could never have for seen that his buddy who has been so kind to him would do this. You only knew because of episode synopses which spoiled it.
+1OO1O11O11O1O and because beerus kept warning him. he told goku and the audience he's destroyed several universes already.
Wait, if Goku is an anti hero, then what is the message of Dragon Ball? What message does Goku send to the kids of Japan and if he was like this from the start, what is the point of his character? Man my childhood hurts.
Exactly..
Julian Harris But the Japanese seem to look at him as hero lol.
***** It's not.
Yes, Dragon Ball is considered a kid's show. Japan has different ideas of what's appropriate for children to watch.
really depends on how you define a hero. if you think about it most American heroes are hypocrites I mean the real reason Kal-El goes around saving people and fighting supervillains. the same reasoning Goku fights people like Frieza yes it helps people but mainly it allows them to have fun challenging their limits. but Superman will deny this and say that he doesn't purely because no one else can. but in reality we know his very presence invites the Monstrous super villains. but Goku willingly admits this. all heroes / superheroes in some way selfish
I'm up for another Vegeta vs Goku arc where Vegeta gets a win over Goku and knocks some sense into him.
A fourth fight? No, get someone like Gohan to fight him.
A.S. MC Gohan would get stomped
KEZ OM3GA If Gohan trained again, which he most likely will, he could stand a chance. Maybe Whis will train Gohan to knock some sense into Goku.
A.S. MC Only if he trains with Whis and trains by himself for 3-4 years in the room of spirit and time will he stand a chance
KEZ OM3GA Yep...
Suck to be a Goku fan these days😂😂
Super Vegito Yep. Thats why I like the 4ft midget sayian.
Super Vegito why do I see you on almost every dragon Ball related video
nashiu Hussain I KNOW RIGHT!!!
Super Vegito i see of alot you
Eh not really he'll still be the one in the spotlight
I would love to see Goku split in half, kind of like Buu did. With the pure of heart side having white and lighter clothes, and a dark side with black clothes. They would have different god forms, such as white and black, according to which version. I think that would be fun to see!
immagohan183 gokuisepic444 you mean... Goku Black?
Maybe he's finally acting like a real Saiyan
Vegeta would be so proud. And also pissed off that he's putting billions of lives at risk.
i think mulitple universes at stake = a bit more than a few billion earth has a few billion lets go for this goku wants to fight and hes willing to allow centillion lifes to extinguish. in short goku is kinda a selfish dick in super and i love his character but in super hes dumb down and made inconsiderate
it would be cool if they did an arc in which the amnesia he got when he was a kid slowly faded away until he fully regains his Saiyan memories while also keeping his current memories.
maybe this is his midlife crisis
You’re an antihero
are you trying to tell us something
What if Goku and Future Zeno were possessed or rather infected by Zamasu before Future Zeno destroyed the... Zama...verse? Not to the extent of Goku Black, but more like a subtle voice in the corner of their minds to influence their decision making. I mean the whole 'every universe that loses gets destroyed' is a roundabout way of fulfilling the 'Zero Mortals Plan'.
G0d Ginrai genius thinking there
G0d Ginrai I don't know of the writers smart enough to pull that off.
Wrong. Zamasu wants the universe clean of mortals, not the destruction of the universe. You most likely don't understand Zamasu.
If you infect Zeno, you can destroy and create a universe in your image as the true god of that world. So its a possibility but highly unlikely.
Interesting plot twist
This is why I follow you, you tend to have the most on point DB views.
I'm more convinced that Goku is playing the evil thing in order to rile up those around him. He has no qualms pretending to be evil if it entices a challenger.
I believe that anti heroes are even more violent than a villian..
Kelvin Martinez not violent per say
Just more untrustworthy
Anti-heroes still have standards and lines even they won't cross. Goku is more along the lines of borderline arson, murder and jaywalking
kaihedgie what are you doing here bro!😁😂😁😂😂😁😂 Goku>superman
Kelvin Martinez they kill villains and heroes so yeah
The Goku hate bandwagon is just getting out of hand.
+King-K9 Kinda. But I feel that it's kinda justified due to the fact that he started a tournament in which an entire universe is destroyed if you lose. He basically doomed his friends and family if he loses.
But people are acting as if he was always this incompetent. And as someone who's favorite character is Goku, this angers me to almost no end.
Yes, people being angry is justified, but that anger should be directed at the writing and not the character.
King-K9 because he has been like this his entire life if u want superman goku than watch the dub on toonami but real goku is and always will be a selfish fighting obssed character
King-K9 Exactly. You should blame the writters not the characters. Honestly, I dont like when people says that Goku always was a douche
He was never THIS irresponsible. He never intentionally threatened the world. And even when it looked like he was making a stupid decision, he still knew what he was doing. I know the being a hero was never the main purpose of Goku's character, but that doesn't mean it was never a part of his character at all. Even in the manga he had his heroic moments.
In a single stroke on today's episode, all blame was removed from Goku and converted into, basically, heroics by chance...kinda sorta
of course he's an anti-hero he just doomed 11 universes
Prince Vegeta more like an anti villian
FiveMinutesOfX ....
Prince Vegeta no he didn't that was Zeno's choice. You can't blame Goku for what god decides.
Josh Krausse zeno forgot all about the tournament and goku reminded him of it, thats why hes being seen as this villain
Josh Krause No, but its Goku's apathy that does it's almost sociopathic.
hey this is actually one of my favorite discussions and I love this video
Honestly I hate how some of the community bashes the IDEA that Goku becoming a villian would ruin the show, honestly it'd be awesome to consider it. As we see at the moment, goku is becoming lifeless "slowly" more in-human compared to Vegeta "Switching roles if you will"
Vegeta was the in-human one at the start, then they both became equal, now they're shifting earlier roles. The show has foreshadowed Goku's evil side when Beerus threatens to kill goku, and Black Goku; also it'd be really nice to see a final battle between Goku and Vegeta where Vegeta gets the spotlight as he deserves it.
Sterbin- It wouldn't really ruin the show anymore, especially now with the fact that they had an evil Goku and like Masako said, he always was pretty selfish and stupid to begin with. It's just that the fans made him to be this superman type of character when he is an anime character and not a human.
He's not becoming in-human, he's becoming...
in-saiyan...
No one? Okay, I'll leave
ZeroCold Gg not really Superman already did that
Sterbin EXACLY, thats what i think. It's a perfect twist, Vegeta manages to be the hero of the story and BEAT GOKU!!!!!!!!! If you think so, he represents more self improvement than Goku. Now he is the only one that can save us from the return if Kakarot!!!!!!
Yeah, it is good. Vegeta always wanted to surpass Goku. He'll do it and he won't be satisfied. Because really if it really happens Vegeta will lose his purpose.
Zeno was seen destroying planets for fun as game literally in the beginning of the eps so Goku might be doing the greatest justice act ever by showing Zeno the value and appreciation of life who knows Zeno might create more universes after or just being teach something in this Arc. zeno will like goku even more for this so Beerus ain't doing shit Goku the God of Justice.
I think you missed something. To Zeno Goku is kind of like a cat or dog. It fun to play with and you enjoy the entertainment you receive from it in your day to day life but at the end of the day its just a pet.
Ok yes Zeno doesn't look rational the tournament is for entertainment regardless but he really interested in Goku so if Goku gets the W wiping all universes that might be just OK to Zeno and continue whatever his doing. I think Goku will wish everyone back right after the tournament or whoever wins and if that doesn't mean nothing I don't know what does.
Technically Goku is still forgetting stuff in this arc. Who was his first son again?
Hikikomorish
that is kinda sad
Hikikomorish he didn't think of Gohan to fight
Hikikomorish this argument always seemed dumb for me, he was clearly watching goten and trunks when he was asked so obviously goten is the only one who will come to mind, its like if i asked you about something when there is one of them in front of you and one somewhere else in the house, you are going to think of the one in front of you first and may even completely forget the other one
Brocolli it was brocolli.
Tyson Thornton May completely forget the other one? I guess if your memory is that bad, then anything is possible
as an old fan of toriama's work i say this with only the best intention's for his legacy, a concept i value highly... FFFFFUCK!... toriama!! he has gone full george lucas.
shardinhand Toriyama is barely writing anything.He barely cares.
so who's responsible for the clusterfuck that is super?
well misunderstanding the character is dubs fault(or you're fault) not really toriyama
the real question is
if goku knew that zeno would destroy all the losing universes, would he continue with his decision or stop ?
You
He does know dumbass
no, I mean *before* asking zeno about the tournament
You he would stop, but he didn't knew so he just had to go along with it. In the beginning, beerus made it seem like Goku was gonna get destroyed if he went there alone. Now, Zeno took it to an extreme to make a kill every universe except one tournament. so technically that really makes Zeno the bad guy and not Goku since Goku asked, but Zeno made the decision.
You
Welll.....
*remembers Goku letting Frieza going 100% and giving Perfect Cell a senzu bean*
I wouldn't be surprised if he did still want to continue the tournament
continue because he probably thinks he will fight strong oponents, win and wish everything back in the end. I sincerely doubt it's possible for the dragon to do such a feat but would be nice if mid tournament they realize it's not possible and the struggle to just stay alive becomes a thing.
I can only stand Goku doing a heel turn if Vegeta is the one to stop him / knock sense into him, and win. Goku is a asshole. Great fighter yes, but in every other social arena he's an asshole and has only been written as a even bigger and growing asshole. He's never grown as a character since he has been a child and for 20+ years, we'd expect him to have growth, he doesn't even have 1/5th (1/10th even! Goku seems to even go backwards) the growth of Vegeta and his growth has been overwhelmingly AMAZING!
Goku never pays for his stupidity and I'd like him to pay BIG for it. I'd like the Z warriors to not count on him. I'd like for even a single arc or two just have Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo be the top fighters. Take all of Goku's power away and let him feel what it is to be totally green kryptonited. For a whole arc, let him be bitch slapped to the power level where Satan actually kicks his ass and the Z warriors flip their shit.
vegeta will never beat goku bruh
Unless its written that way. You seem to think that these two dimensional figures have a will of their own. If Toriyama writes it this way, then our opinions our irrelevant.
zero082294 and goku has never defeated Vegeta so what's your point?
He should keep his stories to himself then.
Hurricanelive and this is the problem with people who only know super goku.......kid back in the days when everyone fcked things up e specially vegeta wgo did it several times goku was the solution now super has destroyed him to a point that it's not even funny.
Goku be like: "You got any more of them tournaments?" *twitches*
I keep hearing this idea of "They'll just use the super dragon balls to wish the other universes back!", but for some reason, I'm just imagining an alternative where they use the super dragon balls to wish the inhabitants of the other universes... Into their own universe before they're destroyed. And suddenly, BAM, we've got this huge collection of new characters that have relevance, without having to use the gods as an excuse for a ride. Better yet is, and this probably won't happen, but if its ANOTHER universe that wins and pulls this wish. Really opens up some interesting new possibilities if they try this route.
The Mexican Van saga sounds great tho
I want to mention that he became the only super saiyan god. This form actually healed him on the outside. Could this have actually healed any damage or scar tissue in his brain from the hit he took as a kid. Maybe the rest of super it's Goku brain slowly coping with actually going back to true saiyan ways.
Nicholi Martin this...actually make sense o.o
I actually like the 'anti-hero', as you put it, version of Goku.
The way I see it, this is just kinda the natural progression of the writing based on what happened before. Like Toriyama stated in his interview, he couldn't seem to get people to grasp the elements of selfishness and devil-may-care attitude that Goku had like he wanted. Whether that was because they were too subtle or people willfully ignored those elements is up for debate, but regardless, they weren't heeded in the past, so this might be Toriyama's way of making those traits more overt. It's a lot harder to dispute things when they're this much more blatant, and I think that's what he's going for.
I must say, I'm glad I'm a Gohan fan, he's a strong as Goku (minus his transformations), he's an actually good person, due to his half-human nature, and he's always been kind of a badass character.
I really want him, in the universe survival arc, to re-unlock his ultimate form
General Echo I have this fan fiction in my mind where whis UN does the potential unlock by the elder kai so he can train to be a super saiyan blue. and then gets his ssj2 hair back maybe. #WhenYourAGohanFan
+Shamima Aktar You poor souls, Goku Black will give you JUSTICE !
General Echo #MakeGohanGreatAgain
It's guessed that he'll at least get his ultimate form back, but I want him to be trained by Whis, being the other saiyan, to get Super Saiyan Blue stacked with his ultimate form. So like the usual look of the transformation, but with like a blue aura.
General Echo I want a new color
'kay man. I just... would enjoy hearing one of these discussions, in just your Goku voice, please. That would probably make everyone's day.
I mean I liked Superman Goku. But I like *Goku* more. Yet there's a goddamned limit to how much 1-D writing I can take. Its hard to believe that Goku forgot ALL of those things in the Black Saga and its just in poor taste that at cost of LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS OF LIVES that Goku gets to fight like 15 other people on par with him and Goku doesn't even flinch. If he is so obsessed with fighting strong peeps with little regard for his life or others, why not just constantly challenge Beerus or ask Whis to go a bit more hardcore? Obviously he isn't afraid of dying since he hired Hit to freaking kill him.
Now, IF they take Goku's character development arc into a more sinister version of himself, like he falls to the "dark side" and the other Z warriors have to try and stop him (including Vegeta and Gohan) that would be hella dope.
it will be better for a arc he is evil it will branch away from a superman failed copy
Heres how I see it, the english dub is the only thing that made the Frieza part establish some "Superman Goku" but Raditz? Cell? Buu? Come on. Goku risked his life for others, believed in his son and gave up a good fight just to stop Cell in SOME way. Buu, Goku pulled out alot just to stop Buu. He fucking THREATENED the Surpreme Kai to save the lives of many. It didnt make sense to me how Super just makes him so damn stupid.
RaginDXDemon Exactly.
RaginDXDemon goku did not threaten supreme kai to save lives, he did it just to fight vegeta. if it was to save people he would have stopped vegeta right therr
Funimation is already doing small changes in the dub so i wouldn't be surprised if they decide to keep Goku as he was in DBZ. You know? Heroic and stuff.
SeboTrzyDe3D sean schemmel makes goku sound smarter
which is lame, I hate how the English dub changed Goku's personality
+Luther Olayemi
Exactly, and Nozawa's Goku in Super sounds kinda dumb compared to her Z performance.
Which I think is great. Every nation grew up with their own version of Goku, all which are different from one another and our Goku is a paragon of righteousness, albeit a bit mischievous.
That's not they're call tho.
I've never liked Goku. Despite the character changes in the dub, I've always seen this element of his person. It's why I've always gravitated towards characters like Piccolo, Gohan and Vegeta. The ones that grew to become very real heroes.
This is what's going on to me with goku. When goku reached god tier it started alot more problems. Goku isn't even supposed to be alive in this timeline. He should of died by the heart virus which was a natural death btw. That change in history makes goku a anomaly. He's all the things the gods look at as bad except for Zeno naw not even Zeno lol. Him and his friends travel through time they keep getting stronger to the point they can compete with gods. Goku is a anomaly a warrior that shouldn't exist. He's literally broken the connection between gods and mortals.
Brizzy5starEnt wow that's deep..makes alot of sense..big ups to you
Brizzy5starEnt I mean, the majority of the main and supporting cast isn't supposed to be alive, so they're all anomalies, right? Gohan and Videl should have died without ever having Pan, Bulma shouldn't be pregnant again(at least with Vegeta's baby, anyway), and so on and so forth.
Headcanon inbound, and bear with me on this:
Goku's blood knight tendencies are due to his Saiyan heritage, but they were amplified after becoming a Super Saiyan God. After all, what are gods but idealized portrayals of all-powerful beings? And what would a God of Saiyan be but an extremely powerful blood knight?
And while the ritual requires pure-hearted Saiyans, as evidenced by Vegeta obtaining Super Saiyan when he did, pure does not always mean good. If Goku has become a Saiyan in the purest form, of course he's not a full-on hero. No idealized Universe 7 Saiyan would be.
The only one at this point who could snap him out of this at this point would be Vegeta. If Vegeta, the Prince of All Saiyans, went off on him and told Goku that he was acting like the person Vegeta is ashamed that he used to be, that would be a wake-up call. When the Renegade for Life says you've gone too far? You better listen, Kakarot. And looking at Veggie while he's waiting for Bulma to give birth, I believe it's coming. Before this arc ends, Vegeta will go ballistic on the upstart low-class. And this time, /he'll/ be the one we're rooting for.
Jeremy Keil r4
Jeremy Keil
I really hope that happens. Not sure if I have that much faith in Toei though.
No. Just no.
No. Just no. It'll ruin the story.
Also, how amazing would it be if the final showdown of Dragonball was a version of Goku that had gotten so violence-addicted and apathetic that the reformed Vegeta and the Z warriors would have to defend the Earth from him? That's a nice symmetry, exciting, and a chance for the other characters to shine.
It all comes clear to me now Goku will become like Goku Black maybe he will not get SSJ Rose He will get some sort of similar transformation with similar powers where he has complete control over his ki like Black.
Diegolazo19 nice fan fiction
solid jiedie yes
Kanji kid Black has mastered controlling god Ki while for Goku its relatively new. Black can control his Ki into a blade and revert it in an instant. Goku isnt on that level yet
Shamima Aktar correction its a Theory
Goku wanted to have another tournament because Zeno wanted another one. He likes Zeno because he's a sweet child. Goku likes children. He wanted a fun tournament from people from different worlds.
It was Zeno for some reason wants to kill zillions of people in different World, not Goku, he is not thrilled with what happened, but he is going to work his ass off to protect his world.
Also I did the math, Goku should be 44 but because he's been dead up to 8 years, he's physically 36-37.
Eszra besides why do people want a guy who is used to dying and death to react and go crazy and have a panic attack he's like OH SHIT ok I'll win
I suspect this obliteration is Daishinkan thing. I mean, Zeno is like a child and may destroy universe in a moment (like a kid would throw a temper tantrum, but we're talking about kid with god powers). But destruction planned ahead so far in time? It's as realistic as 4 year old planning to start crying like 5 months from now. Zeno forgot about tournament completely at first and has NO MOTIVE whatsoever to plan sth like this. But Daishinkan might have, Plus who's announcing all this? Daishinkan again
Did you hear about the theory that Zamasu took over Future Zeno before Goku went to get him? I find that a possibility. During the opening when the two Zeno's do their little dance, there is a moment that the front Zeno turns green.
Eszra you're forgetting to count his days (years) in the room of space and time. That puts him around 40.
Oh that's true! I always forget the Time Chamber. But to be Technical about it he's nearing 40 due to the fact he only spent three years in the chamber with Vegeta, and only like 7 months together the other two times.
But I'll just go with 40 that's fine.
So I'm gonna be real, had absolutely no idea you were the voice of Goku in DBZA. I'm a casual fan of dbz and dbza abridged at best. Thought you just had an uncannily good impression of it and when I found your channel it made all your content that much more enjoyable. But now that I know it makes it so much better. Love your channel and your content. Keep up the good work ♥️
My schema to how much goku has cared for his friends over the years:
kid:100%
19-20 years:95%
when raditz appeared:90%
when he first fought vegeta:80%
when he fought freeza:75%
when he fought cell:65%
when he fought buu:55%
beerusse's first appearance:50%
golden freeza:50%
goku black:45%
now:40%
case and point:60%care lost in 30 year's ...don't have take this seriously.
bwt
no one has to take that schema seriously.
random name
1) Didn't give up because he wanted a good fight against Piccolo.
2) Let Vegeta go because he wanted a good fight.
3) Let Frieza go because he wanted a good fight.
4) Didn't kill Kid Buu because he wanted a good fight.
5) Gave a Senzu Bean to Cell because he wanted Gohan to have a good fight.
Not selfish at all!
DaQuoneTvv
I said don't take it seriously...even I think that schema is kinda....meh...
I think from watching Super, it makes it clear that Goku hasn't been the Hero we thought he was all along, especially this new arc I have to agree with Masako especially if his character continues to develop this way throughout Super, who knows maybe the Goku Black arc was merely foreshadowing the return of Goku's Saiyan mind, if you would an Anti-Goku?What do you guys think?
manlikeadam Hell if the you take the manga, he's been like this all along. Although a true antihero Goku would be interesting.
Yeah I like the concept of Goku returning to his Saiyan ways
No One is *Perfect* .Heroes are Selfish Anyways. Warrior That Do What It right But Loves to Fight Seems Better.
Goku DOES care for his family. The best instance were we saw this was when Black tells him how he killed Chi-Chi and Goten. He went completely mad because of that. He may be a bad father and husband and extremely selfish, but he cares much about his familiy
Iron Bro He also went rage mode when Krillin was killed (both times). Do Chi-chi, Gohan, and Goten occupy the same or higher emotional connection as Krillin? Probably, but that doesn't mean it's what humans would call a familial relationship. Now what will be interesting is what how Krillin reacts when he finds out Universe 7 could be destroyed AND Goku is the cause.
Do you believe that Hit's powers can defeat or maybe even KILL a God of Destruction if Hit uses his full power?
#BROKEN Denis but aren't gods of destructions immortal? I thought the only way to kill them is to kill the supreme kai of that universe.
hit could not defeat goku, the same goku that beerus can wipe out any time he wants... so no hit cannot kill a god... at least a god on beerus' level or stronger perhaps a weak god but still i doubt it
Kanji kid exactly
Lord Popo is the strongest being in all of existence, Lord Popo is the only one to defeat ALL the gods. Kneel before your lord and master Popo.
Shamima Aktar It has been stated that Beerus and the Gods are not immortal
It's important to remember that for most of the decade before Super, he was living in Other World mostly only training and fighting people. Not only is that accepted there, it is encouraged.
Goku is a power hungry bastard. But he means no harm it's just that head injury as a baby that fucked him up even more lol. He's not a hero not a villain. He's just a guy that loves to fight.
which makes him a person that doesn't give a F*** as long as he can fight. That makes him an anti-hero
I don't see a shift in personality.
Goku wanted there to be a multiverse tournament cause it would be fun and he could have some good fights, he had no idea Zeno would destroy the losing universes, and of course he's gonna do everything he can to stop that from happening
Arceus Lord of Creation The problem is that he acts like it is no big deal. This isn't like Cell where he knew Gohan could win, he has no idea if they'll live and is apathetic to the fact that he just doomed entire universes
Relic 575 it's not apathy, I think Saiyans, as warriors, can't really think things through, and focus more of the task at hand
he had a perfect chance to stop it and basically said no
rip the thing masako wished never would happen happened
Well as of right now he is basically the reason why 11 universes are about to be erased from existence soooooooo......oh and that future timeline universe.
Oh please, we all know he's gonna wish them back with the Super Dragon Balls.
SilverHairedFreak25 I doubt it that's too easy to predict. And toriyama likes to throw curves alot with the story. I don't believe goku will win this tournament somebody else will.
I kinda think universe 6 will win and Champa will use the super dragon balls to restore all the universes to one up Beerus.
SilverHairedFreak25 Evrn if he did who's to say Zeno doesn't just blow them up again and claim Goku cheated I mean they're children not getting what they want
Danta possible, but people saying goku will do it just seems to predictable. I really think the tournament won't finish are another universes win.
goku is the guy who'd best the crap out of the guy robbing a woman, but ignore the woman if she's in no apparent danger to him
That or he'd let the robber finish beating the woman first, just to give her a fair chance to fight.
You're right about Goku, and that's what makes him an interesting character. I wish I'd stop hearing fans complain about it
Goku: I am the hope of the Omniverse! I am the lightbulb in the darkness! I am the bacon in the fridge for all living things that cry out in hunger! I am the alpha and the amiga! I am the terror that blacks in the night! I AM SON GOKU AND I AM A SUPER...
Freeza: *Blasts him*
Goku: Saiyan.
He's a Paragon Till Death
Goku's never been a Paragon.
you ruined it. you ruined it and im leaving
Nintendo Fan You want me to teleport you, best buddy?
PezConSombrero i hate you
A God Damn Dragonite TFS reference
Masai I thought saiyans were considered young until 80, so he isn't really middle aged yet.
The Jiggler exactly he's like a 20 something in human years at least physically.
True, but mentally he should be in his 40s. Vegeta even said he needed to, mentally, grow up.
N Williams yeah but some men love to stay children at heart.
it's like goku become the cell saga vegeta that gave chance to cell to achieve it's perfect form lol
I also think that Kakarot is slowing waking up inside Goku, but everyone Ive told this says that will never happen but I guess we will have to wait and see . I do want to see that happening because that wouldnt make him evil but hungry for battle in new levels
Im sure even more so he would train as well as continue to look for strong opponents to fight, that part of him would never change. Its goku we're talking about
100% agree. This is REALLY fascinating! Goku, a character that's completely embeeded in popular culture, is turning evil for all the right reasons, for all the flaws he always had. Its not something forced like usual, no traumatic event that suddenly makes him change and become evil, no, its his own actions, its what he's always been doing, only that now due to circumstances, it gets insanely huge repercusions, its something that was bound to happen if Goku never stoped if you think about it.
I wish they handle this good! im really hoping this gets to a scene where Goku keeps pushing and everyone is begging to stop, but he keeps wanting to fight stronger guys! and even Gohan and Krillin has to try to stop him but he keeps refusing! and heck, if this ends up in freaking Vegeta telling him he has to stop and fights him as the hero while Goku is the villain... that... might end up being the best written thing Dragon Ball ever did, im SO excited to see how this develops and i wish to all the Shenrons they handle this perfectly, because its an incredible oportunity!
While I'd love for the arc to go down that route, we should be careful not to overhype on something that might not happen.
ScarletImp2113 True, we've been burn before ;_; but for now everything seems to indicate it will go down that route, i mean the thumbnail image alone from the opening certainly seems to indicate that Goku is going to go overboard. We can just hope at this point, so far so good!
I suspect this obliteration is Daishinkan thing. I mean, Zeno is like a child and may destroy universe in a moment (like a kid would throw a temper tantrum, but we're talking about kid with god powers). But destruction planned ahead so far in time? It's as realistic as 4 year old planning to start crying like 5 months from now. Zeno forgot about tournament completely at first and has NO MOTIVE whatsoever to plan sth like this. But Daishinkan might have, Plus who's announcing all this? Daishinkan again. Daishinkan might have be big bad just exploiting the Goku wanting the tournament.
Hm interesting theory, we know nothing about him so it might be right. Could be cool if in the end Goku becomes "evil" because he plays him like piano, it wouldn't be hard at all. Guess time will tell.
Karol Nowak - Um, who's Daishinkan?
To me there's 2 Goku's. The DB/Z/GT Goku whom have been portrayed as selfless heroes that would sacrifice everything just to keep the world safe while at the same time wanting to get stronger to push past his limits to grow stronger, and was truly #1 under the sun.
Then there's Super Goku. Just a moron that wants to fight people just for shits and giggles with no real reason behind his desires other than to just get stronger. I'd sooner call Super Goku an anti-hero than just call Goku as a whole an 'anti-hero'. I don't care if dubbed Goku was 'against Akira's original design'. IMO DB/Z/GT Goku was portrayed better, that was the Goku I grew up with since I was 4 and I'm not gonna just ignore that Goku and embrace this Goku jut cause' 'Daddy Akira don't like em'. I could care less. Super has done a great job at ruining the images of these characters and made them look more pathetic/scum baggy than they actually are. Vegeta and Trunnk (character-wise) were the only ones that were treated properly in Super. Hell, despite Vegeta being Akira's least favorite character Akira can treat him the best outside of battle. Hell, if they gave us a Vegeta slice of life spin off with some fighting here and there I wouldn't complain. But otherwise Vegeta is the only good part of Super.
+Spooky Fan09
Especially GT Goku, holy shit he was awesome in the later arcs. Has his goofy moments, but serious and badass.
GT Kid Goku made Frezia and Cell look like Yamcha in hell. xD
Gt was kinda bad not mentioning it
DBz dub goku(the one we grew up with kinda superman) Never existed and never will. I understood goku was selfish and not exactly this righteous hero before this.
As for super technically he hasn't changed till most recently.
+spacedp Goku was the same character since the beginning of dragonball dragonball z and dragonball super and gt. Nothing has changed (until most recently were its being turned up to 11).
Nothing has changed about goku caring for innocent people(I mean in general he's not a bad person just very stupid like giving cell a senzu bean.).It's more how reckless and selfish and naive he is is why 11(and maybe all 12) universes are fucked.
@@acceleratingfiction2959 watch this. This guy hita the nail on the head ruclips.net/video/JTHi7I-bt9M/видео.html
What if Goku's desire to 'fight strong guys' threatens Universe 7 in such a way...
... that Vegeta, who places high importance on family, plays the hero role instead?
And Vegeta isn't as strong as Goku, so this would force him into the position we're used to seeing Goku throughout _DBZ_. Not through magic or mind control, mind you, but their roles would be inverted by their own choices.
Ben N Vegeta is stronger than Goku right now, since he trained for one more year in the HBTC.
A.S. MC kaioken
SSJ 1K Forgot to mention that. Only way Goku could keep up with Vegeta for now.
Hm. More interesting if Goku is stronger. Still, what if he becomes the hero, and Goku the villain?
@MasakoX
I think they are retconning it to make him seem less of a hero and more of an anti-hero in a way that makes you re-look at the past without going "huh, what?" Like when you brought up Frieza/Vegeta/Piccolo he let them go so that he could fight them again, he even used the excuse to Kami at the time about piccolo "I saved the world, you owe me" and the same with Krillin about Vegeta when he was going to kill him.
Frieza of course was like "nope" but ya.
Then you go into kid goku, he just wanted to fight, he ditched his new friends to train with Roshi, he ditched them to train alone cause he could learn nothing from them, he then re-ditched them to train with Kami. He got mad with Krillin died, I think moreso as losing a training partner, who at the time could keep up with him kind of, instead of his best friend. You can also see he really doesn't care about people when to make his goals. Like when he went to wish the native guy back to life when Tao killed him, I think it was to just payback his help with Korrin tower, then when he went to red ribbon HQ to get the balls, he kills everyone there, none of them really stood a chance, he just kills them all, no mercy. They didn't get any mercy because they stand no chance, since they couldn't give him the fights he wants, they just stood between him and the dragonballs. A hero wouldn't slaughter that many people just to get what they want.
I went on kinda long, but I think the point was made.
I've always found that you can indeed explain lots of Goku's 'strange' behaviour by just remembering that he is literally an alien who is perfectly adapted for combat. It's ingrained into a Saiyan's being. Every Saiyan we know of in the series is a fighter, their jobs in Frieza's army was to wipe out other civilizations, King Vegeta pretty much disowned Tarble as he considered him weak. Goku, after suffering personality altering brain damage still retained his desire to fight things. Their bodies are even designed to survive battles and come out the other side stronger than ever before.
Why is Goku considered a bad parent? Well apart from other factors such as being dead a lot of the time, Saiyan's don't seem to have much in the department for parental care. They send their infants off to alien worlds to commit genocide, Vegeta has to go through serious character development before he's shown to care for his son, and I've already mentioned King Vegeta and Tarble. Bardock in his movie is also shown to not care about Goku (Then there's Dragon Ball Minus, but honestly i really don't wanna count that cuz i'm pretty sure it contradicts already established stuff and changes Goku's backstory to be essentially Superman's). Caring for his offspring just isn't a big part of his biology. So yeah, he can care for his sons, but it's in no way ingrained into his being like it is for most humans.
Why does Goku give Cell a Senzu Bean putting his son at a disadvantage? Because as a Saiyan, Goku desires a fair, challenging fight. (I'm theorising a bit with this next part here, but it seems to fit pretty well) Goku has spent the past year of his life with Gohan in the time chamber, watching him get stronger and stronger, and at least in the anime, it's shown that Gohan is very determined to get stronger. This is going to register in Goku's Saiyan brain as a very Saiyan-like attitude. So when the time comes for Gohan to fight Cell, Goku's seeing Gohan as much more Saiyan than he actually is, and could assume that Gohan wants a fair and challenging fight as well, so he makes it so nothing is holding Cell back.
Examples of his 'recklessness' are all over, like wanting to train for 3 years to fight the androids instead of using the dragon balls to fix the problem before it ever becomes a problem as Bulma suggested. It's also the reason why Vegeta's even alive in the series, as before Krillin could execute him with Yajirobe's sword, Goku stops him because he just wants another chance to fight Vegeta. And with Goku and Vegeta in the Majin Buu arc, they could have easily beaten up all of Babidi's fighters and killed Babidi, keeping Buu trapped and the universe safe. Vegeta alone could have done that. But Vegeta just can't wait to fight Goku. After being challenged by Vegeta, instead of going something like "let me just instant transmission to Babidi and obliterate him then we can fight" , Goku agrees to fight Vegeta.
I personally feel that a lot of this discussion is just wishful thinking. Many of us would like for this sort of deep insight and investigation into characters we grew up with, but sometimes shallow writing is just shallow writing. After all, Goku did this exact same thing in Battle of Gods: he stayed back and pretended he wasn't there while his "friends" got obliterated by Beerus, risking the Earth's destruction on a whim. The scale is different, but the behaviour is essentially the same. How was that specific instance dealt with? Bulma slapped him a bit, and everyone just sighed and went "Oh, that Goku! What a scamp" and nothing else came out of it.
If anything, I get the impression that this new arc is trying to set up something different. I may certainly be wrong here, but the "High Priest" has a sinister air about him; it may be that he's being set up as a twist villain of sorts, and that he'll turn out to be the one who's been whispering in the Omni-Kings' ear and influencing their childishly innocent minds into the horrifyingly empathy-less attitude we've been witnessing on their part. Time will tell, I guess.
I suspect this obliteration is what Daishinkan wnated (at leat not Zeno). I mean, Zeno is like a child and may destroy universe in a moment (like a kid would throw a temper tantrum, but we're talking about kid with god powers). But destruction planned ahead so far in time? It's as realistic as 4 year old planning to start crying like 5 months from now. Zeno forgot about tournament completely at first and has NO MOTIVE whatsoever to plan sth like this. But Daishinkan might have, Plus who's announcing all this? Daishinkan again Who can twist the message and fool Zeno.. Daishinkan again.
I think that the acts of Goku are very similar to the acts of a god. I believe he really became a real god at the beginning of the super. So gods are not good or bad, they are gods. Goku is the Saiyan God.
Well the reason why i like goku over any other anime hero is because of his flaw. He isn't the typical "I'll save the universe, I'll be a hero", he does what he loves to and that is fighting, training and getting stronger and at the same time he still deeply cares about his family maybe never shows it. He is goofy carefree and at the same time strong and pure of heart. He is flawed and unique in some way but that's where he stands out to other characters.
"he still deeply cares about his family" good joke, he is emotionally abusive to his family
You know, if you're going to count Goku's heart stopping with Hit's attack as a death, you should also include his heart stopping by Demon King Piccolo's hand.
So that's 4 in total. Sheesh Goku.
sonikku956 really? I thought it was cause he ate too much bacon
So King Piccolo stopped Goku's heart,Piccolo killed him with the SBC,Cell who had had Piccolo's cells killed him as well.
3 out of 4 times he got killed by Piccolo in one way or another.
Conclusion:Piccolo is Goku's kryptonite.
+Soloz Zerker Somewhere in the distance, Vegeta is crying his eyes out.
Well Goku did say he saw King Yemma so that's why that was counted as an actual death
+Naruku2121 True, but King Yemma didn't exist back in Dragon Ball, Toriyama didn't come up with him to actually appear in the manga yet.