How to Fail - Draftsmen S3E21
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- Опубликовано: 27 май 2024
- Marshall and Stan sit down to talk about one of the scariest, but most important things an artist needs to learn: How to fail, and how to use that failure to succeed. Not only do the two discuss the importance of failing and landing back on your feet, they also chat about how to pivot from a failure, creating situations where failing is okay, keeping your expectations realistic, and how to retain motivation after repeated failures.
00:00 - Intro
03:47 - Today’s Topic: How To Fail
07:24 - Stan's Example
11:11 - Marshall's Example
14:26 - Marshall's Album Cover
21:02 - Stabbing Around in the Dark
23:02 - Playful Experimentation
28:24 - Unrealistic Expectations
30:32 - Bernini
37:13 - Pivoting
39:11 - Staying Motivated Through Failure
43:28 - Self-Sabotage
50:08 - Several Things Going on at Once
51:47 - Barron Storey
SHOW LINKS (some contain affiliate links):
Find Your Strengths - Draftsmen S3E11 - proko.com/532
Stan's Old Blog - www.stanprokopenko.com/blog/
Marshall's Album Covers & Movie Logo - static.proko.com/media/images...
Rick Griffin Album Artwork - static.proko.com/media/images...
Saul Bass Movie Poster Artwork - static.proko.com/media/images...
Nicolai Fechin - static.proko.com/media/images...
Stan's Painting of Kristian - static.proko.com/media/images...
The Godfather - amzn.to/3zMVLgZ
The Godfather Part II - amzn.to/3DSCLQx
Adopting Art Parents to Develop Your Style - Draftsmen S1E05 - proko.com/330
Gian Lorenzo Bernini - static.proko.com/media/images...
Frederic Remington - static.proko.com/media/images...
Rembrandt - static.proko.com/media/images...
John Singer Sargent - static.proko.com/media/images...
George Bridgman - static.proko.com/media/images...
Baron Story - static.proko.com/media/images...
Can this Book Make You Famous? - Draftsmen S3E05 - www.proko.com/494
Aesop’s Tales - Sour Grapes - • Aesops Tales - Sour Gr...
Magic with Anthony Hopkins - amzn.to/38Mfrph
Raging Bull - amzn.to/3neaZYS
Blue Jasmine - amzn.to/3zTCAC3
Temple of Art: Paper Planes - • Temple of Art: Paper P...
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#learningfromfailure #artadvice #failingwell
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN:
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff - www.marshallart.com. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Alex Otis ( / alexotisillustration , Charlie Nicholson, Ellie Polk ( / the.mccartski )
Editing - Charlie Nicholson ( / shloogorgh )
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra
Tell us about a time failure has led to unexpected success in your life.
One time, I got frustrated at the success of my colleague’s sculpting ability. I got so angry in fact, that I took the blocks of marble in the studio I worked at, and in a cartoonish bout of rage, I began smashing the blocks into a pile of rubble. But from among that rubble, I accidentally made my greatest work: the statue of David.
True story.
I failed in getting to the branch I wanted, my family did not allow it.
Then I sucked hard at positive sciences and failed all my classes(not intentional, I worked hard to make it work) which convinced them that I wasn't a science person.
Now I am at the third best university of english literature in my country aiming to be a academician. I think thats success???
I’ve attempted to complete a comic chapter multiple times, and of course failed, but each time (after a brief period to wallow), I started over, and yesterday, I finally finished the sequence. It had no real story, but it was something I planned from beginning to end, and saw to completion. Now, I have the confidence to try a bigger project :)
I have a failure bin in my studios. It where i stick my failures like drawings, paintings. I have one in there thats the worst. Its bad lol! The worst of the worse. I was going cut it and throw it in my trash outside. Now that I'm listen your broadcast Im like ew! Man! Now I gotta go correct this thing! ew!
I think my "positive fail" was to not be accepted in the med school (as a child, I wanted to be a doctor). I ended up becoming a scientist. I feel like thanks to that I have some time to do art on the side, which makes me happy :) I'm afraid that being a physician won't allow me having many (if any) hobbies.
Marshal doesn't get old, he just gets better :D
he was old when he was young, now he's reversing :D
Like wine 😌👌
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
why you gotta bring up his age?
What a WASTE of time it is to try to make something BETTER that isn't going to get BETTER when you can TEAR it down and BUILD it UP again- It's a PRINCIPLE of the UNIVERSE!
I attribute the fear of failure to the education system. We grow up getting punished and shamed for failing and get treated as a mischief.
Oooo... good point!
I recently just had a huge setback in my artistic life and this video really helped me when I needed it.
I spent the last six years really drawing and trying to improve with hours and hours of drawing every time I had the opportunity to draw, with the intention of going to the Joe Kubert school for cartoon and comic Illustrators. And I got accepted, and I went through the entire processes AND I kept working and working at the craft. I eventually visited the school in person a few weeks before I was intending to start, with a brand new portfolio to show. And they were impressed with my work ethic and execution with some issues to work out still, but that was what the school was for right? Well come to find out, I was about 8000+ dollars short of being able to pay for the tuition, and I wasn't able to go. And after that things started to fall apart seemingly in every aspect of my life. And this video, just in the first 15 minutes gives me hope that when one opportunity closes, another one will open up. Thank you Marshall and Stan, truly.
I hope you are doing better now :)
The funny thing about Bernini is that his success in sculpture led him to have to pursue other crafts like painting and architecture. The pope wanted Bernini to be the Michelangelo of his time, so Bernini had to do things other than sculpture for like the rest of his life. His architecture was fricken amazing looking but man, what would he have done if he focused solely on sculpture?
Draftsmen podcast are so amazing. This podcast came out just when I needed it. I didn't even realize that the reason I was feeling bad about myself is because I didn't accept the failure and moved on. But now, I just did. The solution was something so simple and obvious but because I refused to look at the bright side and chose to wallow in my failure and sadness, I couldn't see it. Up until now. I'm so thankful for the podcast, it cleared up a lot of thoughts from my mind. I enjoy drawing again. Thank you so much Proko, Marshall and everyone in the draftsmen/proko team. :)
Stan and Marshall are my favorite version of Rick and Morty. 😁
or walt and jesse
Marshal and Stan i just wanted to say thankyou. to both of you.
Your podcasts are a great resource for life (as well as art) and your regular podcasts are one of the best motivators i have to keep practicing/failing/improving.
Each hour of draftsmen is an extra hour that i spend practicing as i listen x'D
Here are my hot takes. During the talk about self sabotage, I think certain kinds of perfectionism fit into that category. I have a mental disorder and can find myself so overcome with perfectionist thinking that I don't even draw for fear of making a mistake. I'm much better about this now, but I used to have to really push myself to get started on something knowing it'll look bad at first. For the first drawing, or the first attempt at something. A figure drawing isn't necessarily going to look great after 30 seconds, or two minutes, or five. Or even the first attempt. Sometimes you do have to start over. I think the learning process is figuring out when to do that so you don't waste so much time "polishing a turd," but you'll fail a lot while figuring out when to start over. But, you don't learn from a blank page.
Related to this, I think this is possibly why there's so many people who ask, "How do you stay motivated to draw?" "How do you think of what to draw?" I think a lot of these questions come from people who are self sabotaging in some form or another. They don't know how to start or keep going through the failures without that negative internal dialogue shooting them down.
I have a funny and awkward fail story. This random artist at a small town art fair took a picture of me after asking if she could use me as a reference. Years later, the artist somehow found me again through university connections and mailed the portrait to me, framed and for free because no one had wanted to buy it 😂 The portrait had a passing resemblance to me but you wouldn’t recognize me from it. To this day, I still don’t know if it was failure of the artist or a failure of my face! 🤪
Well portraits of other people normally don’t sell well.
It’s true, there is a lot of money on portraiture in art, but that’s mostly from commissions.
So don’t worry about it. It’s not you, it’s them. 😆
I have seen Kristian only few times online and I can tell he is a happy chappy but THAT portrait contains most of his deep observing nature. I love it! I can see him in there.
Also, I am a professional failure practitioner and I liked this Draftsmen podcast very much.
I once was photoshoping a cover to my recent video and it was great, so I saved it, but..
then I realized that I wrote the title on the cover the wrong way, and I had to start the project all over again! I cursed, I was angry, but started nevertheless
and to my amazement, it was a thousand times better than the previous one! like, what?!
it's like when you draw something the first time, and then redraw it a few hours later, you notice that your brain did learn something from your previous experience, so it made it much better the second time.
This is why you need to make several copies of a project you are working on, so that you apply new effects on each one and see which one is best.
for example, if you want to improve your coloring and your understanding of color theory, draw something, then copy it using the printer, and experiment with different techniques on each of the copies. Don't work on a project once, don't read a book once, don't watch a complex movie once,
but return to it several times at different times. Because when you return to it a second time, you get a new perspective on that thing, new angle of seeing, new way of proccessing it.
That way you achieve better results at that project, you finally get what the author was trying to say, and you notice the subtle little things the director added in the movie.
plus, when you are doing anything, not just work or side projects, be playful.
it's the playful, childlike, seemimgly crazy people that create beautiful things.
I noticed myself to have better result when I just..play with the project, like a scientist with no deadline to meet, no coworkers to impress or compete with, no perfectionism.
just..
pure..
play~
have fun when writing on that exam paper
have fun painting, drawing, or sculpting. It's not like they are going to hang you if you get it wrong.
have a wu wei attitude
I'm a Mexican artist based in San Diego, CA and I am huge fan of the Draftsmen podcast, I never miss an episode, ever. By far this has been my absolute favorite episode. It took me 5 years to build a big enough following on Instagram to be able to sell prints of my art on a daily basis, it felt like I was finally on the road to make a living as an artist until one morning upon waking up I was notified that my instagram account had been deleted for violating Instagram's community guidelines and there was no way for me to get it back and that pretty much ruined my business (I should mention that I create erotic drawings, reason why I got deleted).
Listening to this episode gave me exactly what I needed, to not give up and keep on going.
I also want to take this opportunity to express my many thank yous for creating your anatomy and drawing fundamentals lessons Stan. I bought your premium courses a couple of years ago and my skills have improve greatly, I wish I could've stumble upon them before spending so much money at the school of visual arts in New York. Again, thank you for the quality content Stan & Marshall. Wishing you the very best.
the only thing that people really need, is to adopt a new perspective. The perspective topic is reeeeeeally important, because it controls our reactions toward all things in life.
a person who percieves taking a walk in the park will boost his creativity, improve his/her mood, calm his mind, increasing the probability of meeting a person that could be your best friend, will be more likely to take a walk than someone who perceives it negatively.
One point about Bernini I think its also important: He was making a living of doing those sculptures, today will be kind of difficult to live sculpting marvel, but sculpting 3d... well that's todays sculpting (at least the reasonable way if u want to live of it) and the 3d being done today, man... really good. I think its another point to add to the why we cant totally compare ourselves.
I love this podcast because it feels like you're in a master class
This is my favourite episode by far.
Every episode is my favorite episode. Anyone else?
I just loooved this episode😍 thank you Stan and Marshall!
Have to commend you guys. Great job, this was one of your most enjoyable episodes! Thank you. Keep it up.
Thank you very much guys, I learn so much from you. Every episode is a trip.
Love this show guys, I have been binging all your old shows in order on youtube
That story about Barron Storey was awesome, and I love the way it's worded. Keeping in mind the process might just help me out.
I finish the art school podcast and this pop up! Omg thank you so much for your podcast🌻
Oh this is a great episode, i'm really struggling with it. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience
I believe all learning is valuable, and that learning combined with experiences develops resiliency in change.
Nourishing as always. thank you, Draftsmen!
That's the perfect word to describe this podcast omg. Nourishing.
Marshall is the type of father figure that you would have the conversation of:
Marshall: "I'm excited for tomorrow, ya know why?"
You: "cuz you get better look-"
Marshall: "Cuz I get better lookin everyday baby"
At least 4 times a day
Just the talk I need to listen today, thank you :)
I love this episode. Thank you.
Thank you for this video! I found it the right time, when I need it.
Great video. Self sabotaging or sub-consciously avoiding success is a pretty deep topic. I wish you all a successful outcome in this journey of self-discovery.
Great episode it's the key for many problems in young generation, Thanks to Draftsmen Podcast. love you guys
I'm enjoying this episode!
Finally a topic I’m already a master at!
i think marshall can produce a book of anthology of short stories, he made stories so much interesting and so fun.
that Barron Storey story was phenomenal!
Stan looks like a super happy Aaron Paul!!
Btw, thanks for the great content!
i just wanted to say i love you guys and i listen to your podcast while drawing
it took me three time to get back to the video and I'm just glad to finish this HAHA
Playful Experimentation. Great Advice!
If you want an interesting view on faliure i reccomend the book Creative inc by Ed Catmull and Amy Wallace. Its about the Pixar founder, and foundation of pixar (Stan mentions a little about pixar scraping stories). There is a whole chapter dedicated to faliure and how they deal with it at Pixar.
If people are interested i can do a quick rundown of it in the following comments.
@@xmaniaccc1 yes please!
@@xmaniaccc1 yes please do
Yes
@john peter chua @varun tulsyan @edgar de jesus pech flores
Thank you for your response! But first a disclamer, this will be a realy abridged version of the chapter so i realy implore you to read the whole thing and also some things are similary said as in this podcast
Here it goes.
1. For most of us faliure comes with a lot of baggage so much that is traced directly back to our days in school. From a very early age, the message is drilled into our heads: Failure is bad; failure means you didn’t study or prepare; failure means you slacked off or- worse!-aren’t smart enough to begin with. Thus, failure is something to be ashamed of.
2.That early experience of shame is too deep-seated to erase. I see people resist and reject failure and try mightily to avoid it, because regardless of what we say, mistakes feel embarrassing. There is a visceral reaction to failure: It hurts.
3. Faliure can be an oportunity for growth. But the way most people interpret this assertion is that mistakes are a necessary evil. Mistakes aren’t a necessary evil. They are an inevitable consequence of doing something new and, as such, should be seen as valuable; without them, we’d have no originality.
4. As we say that embracing failure is an important part of learning, we must acknowledge that acknowledging this truth is not enough, because failure is painful, and our feelings about this pain tend to screw up our understanding of its worth. To disentangle the good and the bad parts of failure, we have to recognize both the reality of the pain and the benefit of the resulting growth.
5. Andrew Stanton (Toy Story, Finding Nemo...) has an unique aproach to faliure as he deals with the possibility of failure by addressing it head on, searching for mechanisms that turn pain into progress. He thinks of failure like learning to ride a bike; it isn’t conceivable that you would learn to do this without toppling over a few times. If you apply this mindset to everything new you attempt, you can begin to subvert the negative connotation associated with making mistakes. To be wrong as fast as you can is to sign up for aggressive, rapid learning.
6.Failure is a manifestation of learning and exploration. If you aren’t experiencing failure, then you are making a far worse mistake: You are being driven by the desire to avoid it. This strategy-trying to avoid failure by outthinking it-dooms you to fail. In a fear-based, failure-averse culture, people will consciously or unconsciously avoid risk. They will seek instead to repeat something safe that’s been good enough in the past. Their work will be derivative, not innovative. But if you can foster a positive understanding of failure, the opposite will happen.
7. If we can talk about our mistakes and our part in them, then we make it safe for others. You don’t run from it or pretend it doesn’t exist. Being open about problems is the first step toward learning from them. The goal is not to drive fear out completely, because fear is inevitable in highstakes situations. What we want to do is loosen its grip on us.
There is still a lot, but i think this will do for now.
Say If you want more
Omg that Marshall cold open!🤣
one technique I like is to reformulate the problem smaller, so you can fail as quickly as possible. That can be literally or conceptually smaller. An example of the latter is grinding composition skills by composing my notes - just placing the letters in the page and in relation to one another to make a pleasing 'picture' rather than just letting them sequentially fall out of my pen.
I heard about the Fox and the grapes Aesop fable during my philosophy class when we were learning about magical transformation. Which is what the fox does when he gives up on the grapes saying they are sour.
Wow superb
Still y favorite segment of this episode! 11:12
Responding to the Self-sabotage section about the metaphore of the body as a Castle...
Maybe the problem itself is believing that we live inside a Castle... That we are a Castle instead of believing we are living inside a Temple...
Maybe the selfsabotage comes with living in constant "Fight or Flight" that the body has to selfsabotage in result of the depression/fatigue it caused.
Maybe if we live more like we were living inside a Temple instead of a Castle, there were no more Self-sabotage
Oh yes I’m a master at this!! 🥰👐💀
I was so glad the movies suggested here are avaliable at my local library, because money is tight for me. I just wanted to put a friendly reminder out there to remember to check out the local library if you don't already have access to the movies via current streaming service subscriptions. (Lets support our local libraries!)
I think it’s funny that it is Proko, who is the younger, is the one who gets into technical troubles all the time.
There is an expectation that older folks are inept with modern technology. But I’ve found that technological proficiency among the older generation is more common with artists. Take Marshall and James Gurney for example. Gurney has even made his own AI, trained with all his books and writings.
Stan not becoming a Pixar animator is not really a fail but a change of direction. I think they're different bthings.
22:00 i think i needed to hear that
22:09 Anyone managed to find that Strathmore interview with Saul Bass? This is the 2nd time I've heard Marshall reference it, but I was not able to find it anywhere.
ITS A PRINCIPLE OF THE UNIVERSE
That Christian painting is Gooooood
Oof you guys. I have heard of a "cold opening" before, but your "cold endings" are really something.
Just another Barron Storey student here agreeing w you.
29:00 there is also the fact that the artists back then didnt had the internet, didnt had an easy access to others ppls art, library and museum... now we get tons of info, now everyone calls himself "artist" because its easier and faster to learn... on the other hand, there are also more ppl who ask for artists...
You guys should have called a software developer for this episode. Our projects are never success, just controlled failures !
Would love hear anecdotes of this!
Remember! The tests can't fail if they are not written! 😉
I am a sofware engenier and I don't see my work as a controlled failure... I see it as the currently best way to do it today with the tools I have access to resolve it... Knowing that in the future it will be outdated
Like the samurai blade black-smith... The last blade is always better than the last one
On a more serious note.. I'm pretty sure he meant that we code for all the possible ways that a program can fail. So that it's a controlled failure and not an uncontrolled one.
As soon as you leave room for input, the program will eventually always be used in a way that was not intended in the first place. Meaning that we as software developers always need account for failure, and make the program adapt to things that we are unaware of when we write the code.
0:13 and the Oscar goes to... Marshall
also Bernini probably didn't have to deal with social media (or if there was the equivalent, there were not as many platforms back then) (around or before 31:04); how he was probably able to focus better on his work
Failing means we're getting stronger.
OODA - 13:40
Observe
Orient
Decide
Act
Marshall kinda sounds like Jeff Bridges when he goes off for the cold opening
came for the singing, stayed for the yelling
That painting of Christian reminds me of the kid from “meet the robinsons”
@42:16 "...Let go from Watts..."?! what does that mean? i always assumed you moved on to start your own thing. does "let go" mean you were asked to step down?
37:13 - Pivoting
Marshall would make a great wrestling announcer. xD
40:29 MY GOD! 💔
Fail: further attempts in learning
I be always have the problem that I don’t really have a project to work on ...
i hope we see you soon in the same room
Why was Stan let go from Watts Atelier?
He was caught having a inappropriate relationship with Skelly
The guy who was called about the camera not working but he's 8n a different city - is he their tech support guy? If so tech support has been done remotely for a long time now 🤔
I'm the editor. Marshall was mostly calling to commiserate.
well molten gold is incandescent and glows red when liquid. at least that rendition of the album looks like yellow mercury, or liquid brass
My dream is also to work for Pixar
I guess I'm on the right track lol
Anyone else is interested to see Stan's attempts at animation?
"Back to the drawing board"
Where can I see the entire thing of "i am a man, i am an artist, i am a failure"
all i do is fail especially in art
@Dusty Lee Sledge I’m not giving up tho it’s a marathon I guess
I thought Marshall was doing a wrestling promo at the start lol
Hey, Barron Storey made paper airplanes!!!???
If you dont know what’s in forest,
Go into it.☺️
Are we acting now marshall?
"Let's fail at painting Christian..."
Alright alright
"And let's paint something else that's maybe...better?" Yes let's paint someone who is better than Christian lmaooo
Never strive to be as good as your example. Strive to be better. The student must aspire to become better than the master. How else can we improve as a civilization?