I think it would be weird as heck for literally ANYONE to chose to bust through the floor if a clear opening is available. My take was that things were locked down hard and she couldnt find another way out and decided to just go for it
@A S that makes no sense whatsoever, sorry! What were these entrances blocked with that a dragon couldn’t get through? The entrance into the caves wasn’t even guarded which is how Rhaenys snuck down there. So they left that entrance completely open but blocked all the other openings? With steel???
I also kinda felt like Helena’s prophecy regarding the loom was a way to express how Otto, the Hand, was planning a more violent and extreme coup without Alicent’s knowledge. Which ultimately leads to the two factions taking up arms.
I loved her little smile when she realized that the crowd she was caught in was being herded toward the dragon pit - where she wanted to go originally. I guess she was wearing armor under her cloak? Thanks for a great analysis. Things are about to get real!
@@Neddoest I assumed her armor was down there with the dragon, it would make sense that she wouldn't wear the armor all the way back to the Red Keep, so they probably have a little armory there. Still doesn't explain why it wasn't gaurded though
Except when she burst forward through the floor boards she probably orphaned 20 children by killing their parents. I hated her showing up like this, hurting small folk and then not even taking action against the people she was there to confront. Lame and selfish.
Oooh, I was wondering why Rhaenys seemed to make up her mind after Alicent closed her eyes and bowed her head as if accepting death by dragonfire. O.O that makes sense!
That what I think. Even reading the story I didn't understand why the small folk even wanted to kill the dragons. This event could really highlight why they hate them so personally.
@@SCHRODINGERS_WHORE Same. It always felt like the historical account in F&B was missing the people's perspective (as it often does in our world). Rhaenys' lack of consideration for the smallfolk is surely only one instance in a long line of Westerosi dragon riders treating the people like cockroaches.
That's what I kind of love about the Dance of the Dragons. A few times, the smallfolk get their "revenge" against these high lords for always playing their games and not worrying about the smallfolk who are losing because of it
I think the “beast beneath the boards” refers to two events: the dragon pit coronation and blood & cheese. This makes more sense because the killers sneak through the Red Keep’s hidden passages before they kill Helena’s son. It also makes sense as to why she seems so upset when she says this line the second time, because the second time this prophecy comes true her child gets killed.
While they didn't do anything in this episode to give us an idea of Rhaeny's mindset, which I think was needed, they did at least set a foundation of why she had to break out of the dragonpit. Erryk Cargyll told her they weren't allowing dragons to leave the pit. That's why he was taking her another direction. So at least they set up that part of the scene.
Why would the Dragonkeepers who have known Rhaenys most of their lives deny her the ability to leave? And if she could break out above she has a dragon she could just BBQ any green guards blocking the tunnel exit.
@Paul Feig is Funnier Than Any RUclipsr But that's the thing, I don't see much awfulness to point out. Yes, it was a deviation from the source material but so was the majority of Game of Thrones and no one batted an eye. The clear purpose is one of giving a tense, badass scene that showcases not only Rhaenys' character and nature but the personalities of Aegon and Alicent as well. I see the criticism more as nitpicking than anything else.
@@ethanduncan1646 The Dragonkeepers are in service of the Greens, that's why Erryk was avoiding them; and since she's been living at Driftmark for at least as long as the Green kids have existed I don't get why would the Dragonkeepers have a bond with her in particular. As for the floor, she broke it precisely to to make a show, she didn't want to escape quietly but confront the Greens.
To be fair Meles was in the dragon pit with Sunfrye and he probably told her all about Aegon's hobbies and got grossed out at the prospect of eating him
I love how there's no straight forward good or evil in most of the characters, none of their hands are completely clean and you can understand things from different characters perspective.
I really loved the five reasons. but it was so well done. It worked for me. The look on her face, as she steered her dragon away, read like a warning. I saw it as saying "think twice"
Well of course it would’ve ended the show if she roasted them there but I think people’s point is that the writers didn’t need to include this scene or could’ve done it different. It makes no sense that the other dragons there would feel their riders be threatened and not come up to defend them. That would’ve made more sense and would’ve also provided a logical reason for why Rhaenys decided to get out of there without roasting them.
@@MCrvngraddip2013 You do realize that Rhaenys' dragon was capable of tearing down the Dragon pit? That alone makes the scene stupid, as what good is a dragon pit that cannot even hold a dragon? So with Rhaenys scene, there's no way a chain could imprison a dragon.
@@_philipp__ But isn't that the point? That it's stupid to think humans can control or contain dragons in a man-made structure. Therefore, not only are they stunting the dragons growth but its shown to the small folk that they are still in danger. Hence what comes in the future. And yes I am well aware the dragon could of destroyed the pit.
3:07: Wait. Oh shoot you are right! The High Septon's presence does change the calculation. I mean MAYBE she could have tried to yell at him to "get out of the way". How simple would it have been for her to order Meleys to attack without fire at first? Is that even possible?
Thank you for the shout out Dave! I love doing these streams and look forward to the finale. And all the stuff to watch out for during the wait for season 2.
My immediate reaction was "You just killed and maimed all these people, why so squeamish about roasting these fools!". I get all the reasons why she didn't, but I just don't know that the scene should have been executed that way because I feel like a lot of people didn't get it and felt it was cheap to have her so close to ending it before it starts only to fly away. Like maybe she could have been under fire or something and needed to flee with no time to DracAttack anybody. Idk. Just doesn't seem well received.
In addition to the Hightowers in Oldtown likely attempting to crown Daeron the Soon-to-be-Daring if Rhaenys roasts the Greens, there'd likely be a faction led by the remaining Kingsguard and maybe even Larys that would prop up Aegon's son Jahaerys as the next King. Would have been a really interesting turn of events and certainly wouldn't have prevented the Dance of the Dragons
Listen I get the points that are being made, but the same time it’s like the writers can write whatever they want, they didn’t even have to put her in that position in the first place. They could’ve just had her bust out of there and I think it would’ve made for just as cool of a scene! That’s my problem with the scene and some other scenes from the episode. And they basically admit it on the behind the scenes that they were just trying to do cool stuff for the penultimate episode. That’s what bothers me about it other than that I still think the show is great and the episode was great.
Agree. She could have busted out another way and directly escape disrupting the first crowd cheer and then maybe have the dragon hit a bell to give Sllucent her response.
Agreed. The idea was cool but unnecessary to the story. Which is fine, not everything has to be necessary, but when you spend this much budget and runtime on a scene, you want it to have more narrative set up than "Rhaenys had a choice to make between the factions, and she makes it" ... there was no actual exploration on screen of why that choice was made. We can infer her motivations! But having to infer the motivations of major characters instead of seeing them explored on screen doesn't make for compelling payoffs. I mean, the episode was compelling in other ways, but this particular part felt a bit narratively lacking.
For me he added more lights to her character I think they are trying to cement certain characters for not just being at the side of that makes sense. Said so that worked for me but doesn’t work for everyone no one will be appeased.
Spot on and exactly all my thoughts, especially that this gives weight to a future event. I have found it interesting how people have insisted that this actually ruined the future event and also was simply fan service. As much as I would have loved a green BBQ, I absolutely understand why she did not and how this was both a show of power and restraint, something the greens will not show next week.
Solid take! I did think the showrunners explanation was a bit light as well. Im ok with part of it having to do with a motherly moment between Alicent & Rhaenys, but not souly because of that. Rhaenys is the Queen who never was, not the Cruel. Also, how bout that Armor of hers 🔥
@@hobbesthecat6868 Way I see it those smallfolk deserved it. Like Rhaenys told Rhaeneyra long ago: They will never let a woman sit the Iron Throne. Plus Rhaenys was giving Alicent her answer as to where her loyalties lie, she just did it Targaryen style.
By not killing everyone here she also sets a precendent for mercy, not only is she not the first spilling blood, her act will also be remembered by the other side. I can see the biographical factor as well, Rhaenys lost a lot, her husband right now is clinging to life, wounded in war. She knows loss and might not be willing to inflict it. Also she never pushed her claim in war. She was worried about her child's safety first in a political advantagous marriage. She is not a warlike person.
The problem is that she killed innocent people that's the problem she literally did not have to do that and makes her a worse person for no reason at all .
I think its just bad writing to have a character murder a few dozen innocent strangers for no stated reason, and then refuse to kill the group of people that are actively seeking to disinherit, and will most likely seek to execute at least your grandsons in law if not your whole family. The inside the episode at the end outright stated that they basically just wanted a popcorn moment for Rhaenys. You can fabricate some post hoc justification sure, or you can just accept that it is a pretty terrible plot hole in an otherwise very well written show. And while we are talking about this scene, how is Rhaenys not jelly? She really should have been crushed by rubble or pasted between her dragon and the ceiling on her way out.
I don't think its post hoc when the established norms of the setting already support the double standard you described. I think execution wise it was quite poor because we had no sympathetic shots, but I think narratively its sound
Rhaenys was never made queen so as much as she may have thought it could avoid war.... She couldn't have known how Rhaenyra would have responded to it. For all she knows, Rhaenyra may bend the knee so she wasn't going to stop a war by starting a war. The whole dragon pit cheered for Aegon so it definitely would have started something.
When I watched it, I turned to my buddy and said, “She is smart to leave a terrible king in power”. I saw it as playing the long game. You have the Westerosi Power Couple leading the Blacks and a Cruel Man-Child (who doesn’t want it, initially), leading the Greens.
I definitely find it weird that people think her not killing them is completely irrational. I could see thinking she should have, but to act like it's outside the realm of human logic, especially making that decision in the moment, doesn't make sense to me. She would have been a kin-slayer (and kingslayer unless you think everyone in the realm will say it's illegitimate), she would have been starting a war that could be negotiated over like you said, it's not like she's sworn to Rhaenyra's side to the point where she'd throw her life away for her (although I've heard people say now her kids are more in danger, which I understand). Then there's the sympathy for Alicent angle, which makes slightly less sense to me, but I get it. I do think the scene would have been more logical and better if you just see Rhaenys and her dragon break out however they could and just fly away with the small folk running outside to see her go. Because if the goal is really just to get the hell out of there, then that makes the most sense and would still be really cool. And we as the viewers know exactly what she's doing.
I kinda like how all the smallfolk had to be there and cheered for Aegon when at the beginning of the series when Rhaenyra saw the smallfolk not a fan of her as hier. And Daemon said they're onion matters!
wish the episode would of just ended with a shot of aegons face looking scary drunk with power. episode 9's deserve an ending where the writing isnt whats in question
Agreed with everything youve said here. Spot on 💯🔥👏🏾 What I keep saying is that while people seem to think killing the Greens would have prevented war, we are saying that from the POV of people who know that there will be a Dance of Dragons aka war. This isn't necessarily apparent to the characters at this point in the show and as you say, Rhaenys kin slaying the late King's true born children and wife would very much likely have started war faster rather than prevented it. In addition, remember that Otto had been planning Aegon's ascension literally since he was born and they no doubt had several houses backing them. It's been noted several times in the show that many in the realm still don't accept Rhaenyra since she's a woman and even those who swore fealty to her would be fine with switching their support to Daeron after his family had been massacred. Rhaenys would come off as a woman who was denied the thrown in service of another woman who they want to deny the thrown. The propoganda would read them as two uppity, female Targaryens and kin slayers who don't know their place. NO, the only way war could have been prevented is: 1. Helaena marries Jace 2. Viserys never names Rhaenyra as heir It really is actually a great scene and the way the writers tried to explain it was absolutely trash lmao. This wasn't a "girl boss" moment as some of the incels like to conclude. It's so much more complicated than that.
Well it would have changed the outcome that was in Fire and Blood for one. The other, she showed compassion and knew that their deaths would have confirmed a war. Lord Hightower would have no other choice but to go to war. This way there is a chance for negotiation for peace.
Help me out here fans. So she couldn't get to the dragon because it was under guard until it wasn't? Why would they leave what amounted to a nuclear weapon unguarded for one second? When and how did the guards leave and why on earth would they do that?
What was Rhaenys doing in KL in the first place? Why is Baela not with her? Why couldn’t she just flee through the normal exit? How is she not heavily wounded by all the debris?
I could be wrong, but I had the impression Helaena’s prophecy was referring to Otto, Larys, or Alicent’s handmaid or even the White Worm. There is clearly discord amongst the Greens where none of them truly trust each other and are unsure what game each are playing.
Thank you lightbringer For waiting for the episode to drop before commenting on it . I really hate that RUclipsrs are doing reviews already it really kills a lot for me .Just wait for damn Sunday my god
I think Rhaenys couldn't possibly pull the trigger because it would have been totally out of character, for all the reasons LML said. But I think Ryan Condal made a good point as well that Rhaenys has new-found respect for Alicent and that was part of the reason why Rhaenys spared the Greens. Rhaenys, being the shrewdest politician of the whole lot, would also be well aware that nuking the Greens then and there would put herself in a completely indefensible position. She would have been a kinslayer (several times over), a kingslayer, and a mass murderer (even if setting aside the smallfolk collateral damage). At that point, who would even defend her? Would Rhaenyra or Daemon or any other power player even come to Rhaenys's defense? Or would they just say, hey nothing to do with us, we didn't even know what was happening, and let Rhaenys take all the blame? More than likely the latter. So burning the Greens at that point would have been a really bad political move for Rhaenys with all kinds of blowback.
That scene didn't feel right to me, We know there was no way she could've killed the greens because that will end the show, so why put Rhaenys in a position that looked like she could've killed the greens only to say she somehow had a change of heart, After killing hundreds of people let it be for something other than to stare at greens like a boss and then fly away. It's like she was trying to prove that viserys the peaceful was always a better choice than her. It would've been better for her to use another exit maybe kill a few guards blocking her way. If it was necessary for us to see a dragon in action we could've seen Sunfyre at least. Not killing the greens doesn't mean she's not cruel, Aegon has never really harmed his family but we say he's cruel for what he's done to other people who are not from the royal family, and Rhaenys has done something worse in a few minutes in my books she's cruel.
I'm sorry bro, the showrunners themselves said this was all just a girlboss moment for spectacle's sake. We're filling in gaps that shouldn't be there because the writers decided to pull a Season 8 real quick. She walked offscreen for two seconds, splattered a bunch of civilians, rawred, and pissed off into the sky because it's the penultimate episode and they needed to contrive something shocking. And hey, we're all talking about it, so it worked!
That's actually kinda what they said if you read in between the lines, but the show is not just trying to appeal to the book readers only, and felt that scene would add more to her overall character and make a more suspenseful finish, so I'm okay with them taking creative liberties to enhance the story and appeal to more viewers... So long as it doesn't approach GOT season 8 levels
In the book I believe they also choose the dragonpit because they say it's easier to defend? Also Rhaenys burning them is like a modern day dropping of a nuke as dragons are weapons of mass destruction. She's not going to do that with the information she has at the time.
I like the idea that there were so many people cheering Aegon II's coronation, that Rhaenys was reminded of how people cheered for Viserys instead of her. In that moment she must have known that even if Rhaenyra was the rightful heir, she would never be queen in the eyes of the people. They accepted Aegon II as their king, and killing him after that wouldn't achieve a single thing. Rhaenys has shown herself to be pretty good at accepting a fait accompli.
Dude Lightbringer, you are awesome...I love the show no doubt. I loved the Soundgarden shout out. Then you bring up The Mars Volta, I was fortunate enough to see Soundgarden in Chicago in 2011, and wouldn't you know The Mars Volta was the opening act. I knew great minds think alike. Keep up the great work bruddah. p.s. Why Draymond Green go all Harwin Strong on Poole? Poole must've been doing his best Krispin Cole impersonation
Yeah, the Soundgarden shoutout did it for me too! I saw them way back in '94, when Chris Cornell still had long hair, and they were opening for Pearl Jam and Neil Young. The fact that they closed their set with a 10 min super-shredded version of Jesus Christ Pose made my night.
Why would she? Not even book Rhaenyra wanted her siblings dead. Show Rhaenyra would be furious if Rhaenys roasted Rhaenyras brothers and sister. This isn’t the war of fire and blood yet. This is only the war of ravens. Both sides hope for a clean win without killing family. The real war only starts once a Targaryen kills another Targaryen. The greens have made themselves a home in the red keep, they have hundreds of friends. Even though king Aegon would be dead they’d still have many rebels and team greens in kingslanding and across the realm. These are my thoughts
King Slayer is the worst crime committed in the realm. It's a cursed title and not easily forgiven. The only way that killing the King is justified is during combat after a declaration of war has been declared. If she would of killed them then most of the realm would of turned on the Black's and diplomatically gaining the Iron Throne would of been almost impossible.
I don't think Westeros has formal declarations of war. The way wars are "declared" is with a swarm of ravens leaving the castle to call all the lord's bannermen. Think about the scene where Robb Stark "declared war" on the Lannisters. And at that point in time, Otto was already sending ravens to OldTown and places, killing Rhaenyra loyalists in king's landing and even trying to hire assassins to kill Rhaenyra, not to mention the coronation of Aegon himself... at this point they are already at war.
@@randomstrategy7679 Too much to reply about but there's a process and understanding in Westros on what constitutes war and when it's declared. I hear what you are saying but for almost any war to "start" there has to be an offensive violation from your adversary. She didn't want to be a King Slayer. She knows how perception would play out in the long run.
I'm just here to remind everyone that Matt Smith aka Daemon Targaryen played Patrick Bateman in the West End production of the American Psycho musical a few years back lol...our boy is a multi-hyphenate
Dear David I like your production videos and super lame jokes, impersonations and voice overs. Please keep them going. If you think they are funny, I find the frickin hilarious. All the best and looking forward to more.
Oh my Gods in Seven Hells! This episode is beyond Thunderdome genius. That last minute is pregnant with profundity. The writing, directing and acting is stupendous. You used the word "Powerful" -- I agree and PROFOUND There is so much happening in Rhaenys' passivity; with her 'non-action' she actually did so much. Philosophically some would say that 'she did nothing' compared to the bloodshed and burning that she could've done. In that, yes: 'She did nothing' But she did do something: She put the fear of dragons in them. She gave them a hard reality check: My dragon can end all of your lives right now in 5 seconds. And without uttering any words -- said to them: YOU are starting a war. And this war is gonna be fought with dragons. Here's a little peek of what that might look like for you. We can go on and on about why she should've Dracarys-ed their asses and why she should NOT. We can argue for or against that for days -- from all angles of logic, rules of war, rules of succession, morality, mental health, right/wrong, loyalty, duty ... They whisper this perpetual pondering into our minds and hearts every Episode: What is good/bad? What is right/wrong? What is justice/unfair? And every argument will end like this: No matter what she did, the outcome would be a shitty one. THAT is the genius of this show! (the writing! The humanity, the reality, the fantasy IS reality) If Rhaenys escaped with Meyles without bursting through the boards and not harming a single Small Folk -- war will still follow. If Rhaenys did Dracarys their asses -- war will still follow. If Rhaenys did or -- war will still follow. The writers/creators give me hope in humanity. The story/show is so human and compassionate. But it makes me pointlessly ponder: "what really happened?" in that memorable moment in history ... whose memory? the people, their circumstances, their mental mindset ... what really happened? I want to learn more about the people behind the history instead of the most important events in history.
I'd rather have Rhaenys escape through one of the 40+ hillside exits to the dragonpit while maybe killing some gold cloaks in the process thus avoiding the unecessary staredown and subsequent questioning by viewers.
Agree. Condal in the BTS video said he knew this scene was going to be divisive. Probably best to avoided divisive scenes unless it's needed for the story
This scene was silly...... They could've done it way better than what we got.. But this particular version was silly and kinda stupid.. Yes, we can justify the actions.. Remember...... D&D also justified a certain scene by saying "Dany kinda forgot......" You know the rest...
Thank you for that analysis David , I was thinking that they had really dropped a clanger in this Episode . How you explained Rhaenyras behaviour made a lot of sense , I now have full faith in the show runners again
I genuinely wonder if seeing what’s supposed to be the most beautiful dragon of all time attached to a character they CLEARLY do not want us to like, would undercut that feeling of “yeah take that b*tch down” for us lol
Loved every episode so far but this one. Cole killing Beesbury in that manner wasn't believable at all, it was silly & ridiculous. In my opinion that set the tone for the whole episode, silly & ridiculous. With Rhaenys killing a bunch of innocent people seems out of character, however I can see how that will lead to something else later in the story. Won't hate on it too much, not ready to jump ship like Galadriel yet... 😝
How did she burst through the floor and sustain all that debris without injury? Not even a helmet. You'd think at best, hit in the head by a giant stone, or worst, shmooshed while sitting on top of the dragon as it pushes upwards into the stone ceiling.
I believe that when all is eventually known that Helaena's scenes in the show will be among the most important. She's the one speaking the truth, but, as with all prophecy in the series, the problem lays in how to interpret it. There's a temptation to fall into the trap of confirmation bias. We believe something to be true and see prophecies as confirming them, when in fact they mean something else entirely. And that's not just true of prophecy. In a series largely told to us by unreliable narrators and historians who may have their own agenda (as historians often do), it is easy to start to telling ourselves a story that we like while drifting further and further from the truth.
I think you're spot on. I remember when Maggie The Frog told Cersei "you will wed the king" after Cersei asked "will I marry the prince". So it would definitely seem like she's saying yeah you'll marry Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and he becomes the king. We, of course, knew that that was not the case at all. So there might be stuff like that with Helaena.
I still think that they should have not added this scene. The benefits of getting rid of the riders of all 3 of the greens' biggest dragons, ESPECIALLY of Vhagar are too great. Vhagar is the big trump card the greens have in the war. Tessarion alone would stand no chance. Furthermore, Rhaenys probably had an atleast decent possibility of taking Aegons kids as hostages, as they probably are in the red keep at the time. That would have been an excellent tool preventing any green/Hightower uprising. Wether the common people would rise up for a lost cause by usurpers is very questionable also. And lastly, Rhaenyra would NOT have been directly involved in killing all the usurpers, Rhaenys would have killed them. If a need for it would arise, the Queen could symbolically punish Rhaenys still. Everyone at the time knew that war was at least VERY LIKELY, and the greens were actively couping the government and usurping the throne, it would imo be very easy to show how they were guilty of high treason (which they definitely are afterall!), and therefore deserved the death of traitors. For people who support Rhaenyras cause already, like Rhaenys, the case of usurpation is clear without the shadow of a doubt in particular. I can understand a few reasonings given as to why she didnt do it, even though most of them are either questionable or outright weak. But what is most important: Wether one now thinks that Rhaenys did the right and honorable thing or not, *what I think is without doubt true is that the scene is too questionable to add in.* They should have kept to GRRMs version imo, much better, much less questionable. And even for the goal of adding bad ass scenes for Rhaenys (which I am all for!), they could have atleast done it better. Give her better reasons not to burn them than "honor" compared to incredible advantages in the highly possible war, advantages against enemies that are definitely guilty of provoking the war themselves, if not nearly on their own causing it, and also definitely guilty of usurping the throne.
@@ivanacvetanovic7611 flying to the red keep with the red dragon. If that seems to risky, fly to dragonstone really fast, come back with all the dragonriders together asap
@@sinthoras1917 She can't get into the castle with a dragon, and she'd have to fight the guards to get to the children. I don't think swordfighting is her thing.
@@ivanacvetanovic7611 it'd be highly unlikely that the castle is safely defended for the greens after all the leaders are dead. The chance of soldiers betraying them/ the castle just being surrendered to her are very high. Also, the goldcloaks are still loyal to Daemon, so they likely would actually support her. It's a chance though, as I said, not a certainty. It's certainly probable, even likely though
@@sinthoras1917 You're assuming way too much there. Rhaenys has no army. And why would the Gold Cloaks listen to her? She isn't even known to be close to Daemon.
When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground! 🔥🔥🐉🐉🐲🐲🐉🐉🔥🔥
Honestly this episode to me was probably the weakest (still ok) because of how different it was to the book. The Green Council, Otto plotting behind Alicent's back, Rhaenys and Meleys at the Dragonpit, the drawn out plot to get Aegon. It just felt a bit jarring to me. That Rhaenys and Meleys scene felt like more style over substance (GOT season 8) I do love the complexity of Alicent's character though. Looking forward to episode 10 for a certain "showdown"
@@asimhussain8716 yea... the episode does get worse the more I think about it. That last scene is really starting to annoy me the more I consider it...
We should all be reluctant to murder the show over this poor creative decision. Let’s just hope moving forward they take less liberties for pure spectacle (really with we got Aegon riding Sunfyre instead like we did in the books, but that’s just me).
I’M SO HAPPY WITH THIS EPISODE!! Eve Best is an amazing actress and I couldn’t be happier they gave this to her! She is such a great character already! But THIS addition just makes it better!! That look on her face, utter disappointment along with a “this is war bitch,” was MUAH CHEFF’s KISS
Let's not forget about her granddaughter back in Dragonstone (I presume) either. Saying princess Rhaenys cares about her granddaughters is an understatement.
I feel like the scene was still a little weak, even if I agree that she just was not ready to become a kinslayer, or even a plain murderer. Murder was not the only option there, she could have demanded her own terms, taken hostages, she was in complete control of the situation. She wouldn't even have to do it for Rhaenyra's sake, but just as a way to stop the coup and give the other Great Lords of Westeros more time to hear the news before a new king is crowned. Another dragon showing up and forcing her to flee or get bloody would definitely have worked better on a logic frame of mind, even if it would deny us the character building of the trade of looks that went on.
2 года назад+7
"Rhaenys wasn't ready to be a butcher and start all the violence." "If more of these high lords were reluctant to kill, as Rhaenys was in the Dragonpit, perhaps war could have been avoided." I'm so glad you eventually got to the smallfolk lives, because the above lines were really boggling my mind. I don't care about any of the efforts to present her exit as triumphal. I care about the lives of the people she killed. And I'm not going to assume she had no other way out, when we have literally been shown another way in the actual show. I am really not concerned about justifying Rhaenys's actions here, because to me they are not justifiable. I am concerned about justifying the existence of this part of the scene, which was a choice by the writers and did not need to happen. I think it would have been better to have Rhaenys escape via the episode 1 exit, without killing a bunch of commoners (but perhaps some guards and dragonkeepers) - then have Aegon go on a triumphal riding of Sunfyre and see her getting away. However, Aegon does not fly after her - not out of mercy, but because he got instantly hooked on the admiration of the people and wants to show off to the city on dragonback. I think that would've still given us a moment where we can say "things could've turned out very differently if someone had made another choice here," while not radically rewriting the original story - plus it's more of a comment on Aegon's character, which is appropriate for an episode that is meant to focus on the Greens.
I'll have to disagree. Rhaenys has been shown to be a fairly reasonable person despite her clear beliefs on royal supremacy. We have no clarification on whether or not there was a separate exit that she could've gone through, especially considering this is a coronation and I doubt they wanted to take any risks with dragons getting loose. I'm not defending Rhaeny's actions, but it's clear that Rhaenys isn't willing to go straight into war, which can only really be declared by high lords anyways. This escape scene gave us a prelude to Rhaeny's firey nature, which is something that's heavily noted in the source material, and I'd also say this scene showed a lot of Aegon's and Alicent's character as well. Aegon is engulfed in the admiration despite never wanting the throne, and Alicent is shown to be far more motherly than anticipated. It's my belief that this scene does a lot for character personalities and I think it's important we don't nitpick everything, especially when it doesn't have a huge effect on the story. Yes, her exit may not be "triumphant" but it was badass, intense, and a real show of character on her part, which I think is something that many people enjoyed, despite it being a deviation from the source material.
I think it would be weird as heck for literally ANYONE to chose to bust through the floor if a clear opening is available. My take was that things were locked down hard and she couldnt find another way out and decided to just go for it
They literally had the coronation in the dragon pit. The entrances were blocked off and the only way to escape was to break through the floor.
@@AS-ri1mb the first scene of episode one, shows another entrance.
« Pardon me » - Melys
@A S that makes no sense whatsoever, sorry! What were these entrances blocked with that a dragon couldn’t get through? The entrance into the caves wasn’t even guarded which is how Rhaenys snuck down there. So they left that entrance completely open but blocked all the other openings? With steel???
Yeah, Alicent literally told her that they couldn’t let Meleys get out cause she is such an asset. 100% had everything locked down.
I also kinda felt like Helena’s prophecy regarding the loom was a way to express how Otto, the Hand, was planning a more violent and extreme coup without Alicent’s knowledge. Which ultimately leads to the two factions taking up arms.
Good call!
Spoken plainly..it would've been "grandpa has already ordered new banners"
I loved her little smile when she realized that the crowd she was caught in was being herded toward the dragon pit - where she wanted to go originally. I guess she was wearing armor under her cloak? Thanks for a great analysis. Things are about to get real!
She changed into the armor after she left the Red Keep but before the dragon pit. Deleted scene. 😏
@@Neddoest I assumed her armor was down there with the dragon, it would make sense that she wouldn't wear the armor all the way back to the Red Keep, so they probably have a little armory there. Still doesn't explain why it wasn't gaurded though
The armour was in the Dragon pit, with her dragon.
@@fleshbhones I assumed it was a plot hole. Like the entire #SassyDragon move
No she was wearing it because you see the imprint of her shoulder armor under the cape
Both of Rhaenys' children died in fire. She likely thought about that before thinking about burning all of Alicent's children.
Yass kween and fuck the smallfolk
Except when she burst forward through the floor boards she probably orphaned 20 children by killing their parents. I hated her showing up like this, hurting small folk and then not even taking action against the people she was there to confront. Lame and selfish.
Oooh, I was wondering why Rhaenys seemed to make up her mind after Alicent closed her eyes and bowed her head as if accepting death by dragonfire. O.O that makes sense!
I just hope this gets brought up by the smallfoll during the storming of the Dragonpit to make it feel like it was something that impacted the story
That what I think. Even reading the story I didn't understand why the small folk even wanted to kill the dragons. This event could really highlight why they hate them so personally.
@@SCHRODINGERS_WHORE Same. It always felt like the historical account in F&B was missing the people's perspective (as it often does in our world). Rhaenys' lack of consideration for the smallfolk is surely only one instance in a long line of Westerosi dragon riders treating the people like cockroaches.
@@SCHRODINGERS_WHORE good point. I didn’t think about that
That's what I kind of love about the Dance of the Dragons. A few times, the smallfolk get their "revenge" against these high lords for always playing their games and not worrying about the smallfolk who are losing because of it
I think the “beast beneath the boards” refers to two events: the dragon pit coronation and blood & cheese. This makes more sense because the killers sneak through the Red Keep’s hidden passages before they kill Helena’s son. It also makes sense as to why she seems so upset when she says this line the second time, because the second time this prophecy comes true her child gets killed.
She does say it twice. So.
By understanding writers I think Beast beneath the boards literallh meant Meleys which is boring ...
that's trying to force two events to match the words of a prophecy.
While they didn't do anything in this episode to give us an idea of Rhaeny's mindset, which I think was needed, they did at least set a foundation of why she had to break out of the dragonpit. Erryk Cargyll told her they weren't allowing dragons to leave the pit. That's why he was taking her another direction. So at least they set up that part of the scene.
Why would the Dragonkeepers who have known Rhaenys most of their lives deny her the ability to leave? And if she could break out above she has a dragon she could just BBQ any green guards blocking the tunnel exit.
@@ethanduncan1646 The dragonkeepers wouldn't want to be hung with any of the other people seen as being on the side of the Blacks.
@Paul Feig is Funnier Than Any RUclipsr But that's the thing, I don't see much awfulness to point out. Yes, it was a deviation from the source material but so was the majority of Game of Thrones and no one batted an eye. The clear purpose is one of giving a tense, badass scene that showcases not only Rhaenys' character and nature but the personalities of Aegon and Alicent as well. I see the criticism more as nitpicking than anything else.
@@ethanduncan1646 The Dragonkeepers are in service of the Greens, that's why Erryk was avoiding them; and since she's been living at Driftmark for at least as long as the Green kids have existed I don't get why would the Dragonkeepers have a bond with her in particular. As for the floor, she broke it precisely to to make a show, she didn't want to escape quietly but confront the Greens.
@Paul Feig is Funnier Than Any RUclipsr It's also okay to point out the ways in which we think this scene is *not* awful.
Shoutout to Soundgraden for their surprise cameo appearance - RIP Chris Cornell. 🖤 Always love the hidden music messages David. 🤘
To be fair Meles was in the dragon pit with Sunfrye and he probably told her all about Aegon's hobbies and got grossed out at the prospect of eating him
❤😂
lol
Godammit I cant believe she couldn't hear me shouting "roast them" through my TV screen 🤣🤣
I love how there's no straight forward good or evil in most of the characters, none of their hands are completely clean and you can understand things from different characters perspective.
Larys might be as close as it gets
@@bilborulz12 True, seems like he's only out for himself.... and for those sweet royal feet.
Exactly. It’s a civil war. Everyone is acting not in moral terms but for their own best interest.
It would be great to have some small folk POV scenes in the future just see how destructive both sides are in this confilct
I really loved the five reasons. but it was so well done. It worked for me.
The look on her face, as she steered her dragon away, read like a warning. I saw it as saying "think twice"
I have the "Stark Wolf" version of the cup you have beside you. Nice. I liked the analysis on this one as well.
Well of course it would’ve ended the show if she roasted them there but I think people’s point is that the writers didn’t need to include this scene or could’ve done it different. It makes no sense that the other dragons there would feel their riders be threatened and not come up to defend them. That would’ve made more sense and would’ve also provided a logical reason for why Rhaenys decided to get out of there without roasting them.
The other dragons are locked up in the dragon pit. In chains. So they can't come as easily as if in the open.
@@MCrvngraddip2013 You do realize that Rhaenys' dragon was capable of tearing down the Dragon pit? That alone makes the scene stupid, as what good is a dragon pit that cannot even hold a dragon? So with Rhaenys scene, there's no way a chain could imprison a dragon.
@@_philipp__ But isn't that the point? That it's stupid to think humans can control or contain dragons in a man-made structure. Therefore, not only are they stunting the dragons growth but its shown to the small folk that they are still in danger. Hence what comes in the future.
And yes I am well aware the dragon could of destroyed the pit.
I dont think the dragon and rider connection works that way in got.
I'm glad you made a video, it was like 50 people asking this question over and over on your live
It sure was
Aegon in his Jesus-pose kind of reminded me of Emperor Commodus in Gladiator. Similar kind of character, too.
Yes and both Commodus and Aegon have troubling dark circles around the eyes.
@@fandommenace9575 exactly what I was thinking, same eyes and pale skin
She had no problem killing 100’s of common folk though …
3:07: Wait. Oh shoot you are right! The High Septon's presence does change the calculation. I mean MAYBE she could have tried to yell at him to "get out of the way". How simple would it have been for her to order Meleys to attack without fire at first? Is that even possible?
Thank you for the shout out Dave! I love doing these streams and look forward to the finale. And all the stuff to watch out for during the wait for season 2.
Bro, she just killed hundreds of innocent people coming out of the pit. I'd say that's pretty cruel.
the small folk are irrelevant in their eyes
You also forget those people just committed treason by cheering a coup. Rhaenys just proved to the people that choice has consequences.
innocent?
@@jayxjayx8164 yes Innocent. They had nothing to do with Aegon being king
Innocence doesn't matter much when you are barely worth more than a slave to the lady about to blow up the floor.
My immediate reaction was "You just killed and maimed all these people, why so squeamish about roasting these fools!". I get all the reasons why she didn't, but I just don't know that the scene should have been executed that way because I feel like a lot of people didn't get it and felt it was cheap to have her so close to ending it before it starts only to fly away. Like maybe she could have been under fire or something and needed to flee with no time to DracAttack anybody. Idk. Just doesn't seem well received.
In addition to the Hightowers in Oldtown likely attempting to crown Daeron the Soon-to-be-Daring if Rhaenys roasts the Greens, there'd likely be a faction led by the remaining Kingsguard and maybe even Larys that would prop up Aegon's son Jahaerys as the next King.
Would have been a really interesting turn of events and certainly wouldn't have prevented the Dance of the Dragons
Listen I get the points that are being made, but the same time it’s like the writers can write whatever they want, they didn’t even have to put her in that position in the first place. They could’ve just had her bust out of there and I think it would’ve made for just as cool of a scene! That’s my problem with the scene and some other scenes from the episode. And they basically admit it on the behind the scenes that they were just trying to do cool stuff for the penultimate episode. That’s what bothers me about it other than that I still think the show is great and the episode was great.
Agree. She could have busted out another way and directly escape disrupting the first crowd cheer and then maybe have the dragon hit a bell to give Sllucent her response.
Agreed. The idea was cool but unnecessary to the story. Which is fine, not everything has to be necessary, but when you spend this much budget and runtime on a scene, you want it to have more narrative set up than "Rhaenys had a choice to make between the factions, and she makes it" ... there was no actual exploration on screen of why that choice was made. We can infer her motivations! But having to infer the motivations of major characters instead of seeing them explored on screen doesn't make for compelling payoffs. I mean, the episode was compelling in other ways, but this particular part felt a bit narratively lacking.
For me he added more lights to her character I think they are trying to cement certain characters for not just being at the side of that makes sense. Said so that worked for me but doesn’t work for everyone no one will be appeased.
Good well rounded takes, I really like your style of content so far
Spot on and exactly all my thoughts, especially that this gives weight to a future event. I have found it interesting how people have insisted that this actually ruined the future event and also was simply fan service. As much as I would have loved a green BBQ, I absolutely understand why she did not and how this was both a show of power and restraint, something the greens will not show next week.
Well....Aemond won't, that rogue... 🐲 🔥 ☠️ 🌊 🌧️
I swear the "Shepherd" was born in that episode and bring the finale on! Awesome video as ever ❤️
Good call
You also see sheep walking in the streets
Solid take! I did think the showrunners explanation was a bit light as well. Im ok with part of it having to do with a motherly moment between Alicent & Rhaenys, but not souly because of that. Rhaenys is the Queen who never was, not the Cruel. Also, how bout that Armor of hers 🔥
But she is cruel. She went out of her way to kill hundreds of people.
I think the show runners did not want to give confirmation to a future event.
@Damian D she showed the small folk there is consequences to treason and cheering a usurper.
@@damiand1016 yea, you never like to see #TeamSmallfolk take an L like that. They were innocent bystanders
@@hobbesthecat6868 Way I see it those smallfolk deserved it. Like Rhaenys told Rhaeneyra long ago: They will never let a woman sit the Iron Throne. Plus Rhaenys was giving Alicent her answer as to where her loyalties lie, she just did it Targaryen style.
By not killing everyone here she also sets a precendent for mercy, not only is she not the first spilling blood, her act will also be remembered by the other side.
I can see the biographical factor as well, Rhaenys lost a lot, her husband right now is clinging to life, wounded in war. She knows loss and might not be willing to inflict it. Also she never pushed her claim in war. She was worried about her child's safety first in a political advantagous marriage. She is not a warlike person.
Unfortunately this precedent of mercy will not be honoured by the Greens.
The problem is that she killed innocent people that's the problem she literally did not have to do that and makes her a worse person for no reason at all .
@@thatoneblackdude3333 I think the reason is to show how there is a lot of collateral damage and she does not care about small folk as much.
Ok the reasons 5-2 were funny but 1 has to be the corniest dad joke which is why its the most funny lol
Well he's the dad of two birds
I think its just bad writing to have a character murder a few dozen innocent strangers for no stated reason, and then refuse to kill the group of people that are actively seeking to disinherit, and will most likely seek to execute at least your grandsons in law if not your whole family. The inside the episode at the end outright stated that they basically just wanted a popcorn moment for Rhaenys.
You can fabricate some post hoc justification sure, or you can just accept that it is a pretty terrible plot hole in an otherwise very well written show.
And while we are talking about this scene, how is Rhaenys not jelly? She really should have been crushed by rubble or pasted between her dragon and the ceiling on her way out.
Wings, horned head ... That's all I'm gonna say.
I don't think its post hoc when the established norms of the setting already support the double standard you described. I think execution wise it was quite poor because we had no sympathetic shots, but I think narratively its sound
I saw The Mara Volta last weekend and they were incredible. Cedric has definitely upped his vocal game. Hope you have a blast!
Great band
Cedric does seem in way better shape vocally on the new album compared to the At the Drive-In comeback. Happy to know they're still a blast live!
Rhaenys was never made queen so as much as she may have thought it could avoid war.... She couldn't have known how Rhaenyra would have responded to it. For all she knows, Rhaenyra may bend the knee so she wasn't going to stop a war by starting a war. The whole dragon pit cheered for Aegon so it definitely would have started something.
When I watched it, I turned to my buddy and said, “She is smart to leave a terrible king in power”. I saw it as playing the long game.
You have the Westerosi Power Couple leading the Blacks and a Cruel Man-Child (who doesn’t want it, initially), leading the Greens.
This is an excellent video and great breakdown / explanation.
I definitely find it weird that people think her not killing them is completely irrational. I could see thinking she should have, but to act like it's outside the realm of human logic, especially making that decision in the moment, doesn't make sense to me. She would have been a kin-slayer (and kingslayer unless you think everyone in the realm will say it's illegitimate), she would have been starting a war that could be negotiated over like you said, it's not like she's sworn to Rhaenyra's side to the point where she'd throw her life away for her (although I've heard people say now her kids are more in danger, which I understand). Then there's the sympathy for Alicent angle, which makes slightly less sense to me, but I get it.
I do think the scene would have been more logical and better if you just see Rhaenys and her dragon break out however they could and just fly away with the small folk running outside to see her go. Because if the goal is really just to get the hell out of there, then that makes the most sense and would still be really cool. And we as the viewers know exactly what she's doing.
hey David, if you and Minty are coming to the city today, let me take you guys out for a late lunch or drinks before the performance.
I kinda like how all the smallfolk had to be there and cheered for Aegon when at the beginning of the series when Rhaenyra saw the smallfolk not a fan of her as hier. And Daemon said they're onion matters!
Everybody has their own onions tbf
Onion Lives Matter 😁
🤣🤣 I really should re-read before posting!
@@lizardbreathh 🤣 I'm glad you didn't edit your comment. That last bit was nice 👌
@@JSinuYasha I needed a good laugh and I'm sure others do as well 🤣🤣
@11:15 I love you man! That song came straight into my head when I was watching it.
wish the episode would of just ended with a shot of aegons face looking scary drunk with power. episode 9's deserve an ending where the writing isnt whats in question
3:26 Nice catch!! Didn't notice that in the intro about Daeron!
Agreed with everything youve said here. Spot on 💯🔥👏🏾 What I keep saying is that while people seem to think killing the Greens would have prevented war, we are saying that from the POV of people who know that there will be a Dance of Dragons aka war. This isn't necessarily apparent to the characters at this point in the show and as you say, Rhaenys kin slaying the late King's true born children and wife would very much likely have started war faster rather than prevented it.
In addition, remember that Otto had been planning Aegon's ascension literally since he was born and they no doubt had several houses backing them. It's been noted several times in the show that many in the realm still don't accept Rhaenyra since she's a woman and even those who swore fealty to her would be fine with switching their support to Daeron after his family had been massacred. Rhaenys would come off as a woman who was denied the thrown in service of another woman who they want to deny the thrown. The propoganda would read them as two uppity, female Targaryens and kin slayers who don't know their place. NO, the only way war could have been prevented is:
1. Helaena marries Jace
2. Viserys never names Rhaenyra as heir
It really is actually a great scene and the way the writers tried to explain it was absolutely trash lmao. This wasn't a "girl boss" moment as some of the incels like to conclude. It's so much more complicated than that.
Well it would have changed the outcome that was in Fire and Blood for one. The other, she showed compassion and knew that their deaths would have confirmed a war. Lord Hightower would have no other choice but to go to war. This way there is a chance for negotiation for peace.
just an aside: I love how Rhaenys leaned over to command Meleys to exit the pit... so intimate with dragon and rider...
Help me out here fans. So she couldn't get to the dragon because it was under guard until it wasn't? Why would they leave what amounted to a nuclear weapon unguarded for one second? When and how did the guards leave and why on earth would they do that?
What was Rhaenys doing in KL in the first place? Why is Baela not with her? Why couldn’t she just flee through the normal exit? How is she not heavily wounded by all the debris?
I could be wrong, but I had the impression Helaena’s prophecy was referring to Otto, Larys, or Alicent’s handmaid or even the White Worm. There is clearly discord amongst the Greens where none of them truly trust each other and are unsure what game each are playing.
Thank you lightbringer For waiting for the episode to drop before commenting on it . I really hate that RUclipsrs are doing reviews already it really kills a lot for me .Just wait for damn Sunday my god
I think Rhaenys couldn't possibly pull the trigger because it would have been totally out of character, for all the reasons LML said. But I think Ryan Condal made a good point as well that Rhaenys has new-found respect for Alicent and that was part of the reason why Rhaenys spared the Greens.
Rhaenys, being the shrewdest politician of the whole lot, would also be well aware that nuking the Greens then and there would put herself in a completely indefensible position. She would have been a kinslayer (several times over), a kingslayer, and a mass murderer (even if setting aside the smallfolk collateral damage). At that point, who would even defend her? Would Rhaenyra or Daemon or any other power player even come to Rhaenys's defense? Or would they just say, hey nothing to do with us, we didn't even know what was happening, and let Rhaenys take all the blame? More than likely the latter. So burning the Greens at that point would have been a really bad political move for Rhaenys with all kinds of blowback.
That scene didn't feel right to me, We know there was no way she could've killed the greens because that will end the show, so why put Rhaenys in a position that looked like she could've killed the greens only to say she somehow had a change of heart, After killing hundreds of people let it be for something other than to stare at greens like a boss and then fly away. It's like she was trying to prove that viserys the peaceful was always a better choice than her. It would've been better for her to use another exit maybe kill a few guards blocking her way. If it was necessary for us to see a dragon in action we could've seen Sunfyre at least. Not killing the greens doesn't mean she's not cruel, Aegon has never really harmed his family but we say he's cruel for what he's done to other people who are not from the royal family, and Rhaenys has done something worse in a few minutes in my books she's cruel.
You make so many interesting points!
I'm sorry bro, the showrunners themselves said this was all just a girlboss moment for spectacle's sake. We're filling in gaps that shouldn't be there because the writers decided to pull a Season 8 real quick.
She walked offscreen for two seconds, splattered a bunch of civilians, rawred, and pissed off into the sky because it's the penultimate episode and they needed to contrive something shocking.
And hey, we're all talking about it, so it worked!
Lol that’s not what they said, first of all, and second, I care more about the internal logic of the characters
That's actually kinda what they said if you read in between the lines, but the show is not just trying to appeal to the book readers only, and felt that scene would add more to her overall character and make a more suspenseful finish, so I'm okay with them taking creative liberties to enhance the story and appeal to more viewers... So long as it doesn't approach GOT season 8 levels
There is absolutely no way someone hated season eight of GOT but somehow stan this useless and forced scene. Absolutely no way .
This has future pay off and adds a lot of weight to that event.
@@hobbesthecat6868 if they acknowledge it, which I don't think they will
😂😂😂😂😂
There is a lot of HotD content out there and LML has been tops from day one! Absolutely so excited for the finale afterparty 💃
In the book I believe they also choose the dragonpit because they say it's easier to defend? Also Rhaenys burning them is like a modern day dropping of a nuke as dragons are weapons of mass destruction. She's not going to do that with the information she has at the time.
Well, the dragon didn't need to burn them, all that was needed was a very specific snack.
She killed tens or hundreds inside the pit for no reason, why everybody is acting like she is this level headed person?
I like the idea that there were so many people cheering Aegon II's coronation, that Rhaenys was reminded of how people cheered for Viserys instead of her. In that moment she must have known that even if Rhaenyra was the rightful heir, she would never be queen in the eyes of the people. They accepted Aegon II as their king, and killing him after that wouldn't achieve a single thing. Rhaenys has shown herself to be pretty good at accepting a fait accompli.
If that intro wasn't peak comedy within this fandom I don't know what is.
I understand her not killing them, but why did she even showed up at the coronation with Meleys?
She could've just LEFT King's Landing couldn't she?
I believe she was proving a point to the small folk and issuing a warning to the greens. There are consequences to cheering a usurper.
@@hobbesthecat6868 exactly, something so simple as this explanation is what people aren't understanding. I don't get why.
your channel is awesome man, currently going through your TWoW prediction series with quin and its great, thanks for the great content
Dude Lightbringer, you are awesome...I love the show no doubt. I loved the Soundgarden shout out. Then you bring up The Mars Volta, I was fortunate enough to see Soundgarden in Chicago in 2011, and wouldn't you know The Mars Volta was the opening act. I knew great minds think alike. Keep up the great work bruddah.
p.s. Why Draymond Green go all Harwin Strong on Poole? Poole must've been doing his best Krispin Cole impersonation
Yeah, the Soundgarden shoutout did it for me too! I saw them way back in '94, when Chris Cornell still had long hair, and they were opening for Pearl Jam and Neil Young. The fact that they closed their set with a 10 min super-shredded version of Jesus Christ Pose made my night.
Why would she? Not even book Rhaenyra wanted her siblings dead. Show Rhaenyra would be furious if Rhaenys roasted Rhaenyras brothers and sister. This isn’t the war of fire and blood yet. This is only the war of ravens. Both sides hope for a clean win without killing family. The real war only starts once a Targaryen kills another Targaryen. The greens have made themselves a home in the red keep, they have hundreds of friends. Even though king Aegon would be dead they’d still have many rebels and team greens in kingslanding and across the realm.
These are my thoughts
King Slayer is the worst crime committed in the realm. It's a cursed title and not easily forgiven. The only way that killing the King is justified is during combat after a declaration of war has been declared. If she would of killed them then most of the realm would of turned on the Black's and diplomatically gaining the Iron Throne would of been almost impossible.
I don't think Westeros has formal declarations of war. The way wars are "declared" is with a swarm of ravens leaving the castle to call all the lord's bannermen. Think about the scene where Robb Stark "declared war" on the Lannisters.
And at that point in time, Otto was already sending ravens to OldTown and places, killing Rhaenyra loyalists in king's landing and even trying to hire assassins to kill Rhaenyra, not to mention the coronation of Aegon himself... at this point they are already at war.
@@randomstrategy7679 Too much to reply about but there's a process and understanding in Westros on what constitutes war and when it's declared. I hear what you are saying but for almost any war to "start" there has to be an offensive violation from your adversary. She didn't want to be a King Slayer. She knows how perception would play out in the long run.
I'm just here to remind everyone that Matt Smith aka Daemon Targaryen played Patrick Bateman in the West End production of the American Psycho musical a few years back lol...our boy is a multi-hyphenate
Dear David
I like your production videos and super lame jokes, impersonations and voice overs. Please keep them going. If you think they are funny, I find the frickin hilarious. All the best and looking forward to more.
Oh my Gods in Seven Hells! This episode is beyond Thunderdome genius. That last minute is pregnant with profundity. The writing, directing and acting is stupendous. You used the word "Powerful" -- I agree and PROFOUND
There is so much happening in Rhaenys' passivity; with her 'non-action' she actually did so much. Philosophically some would say that 'she did nothing' compared to the bloodshed and burning that she could've done. In that, yes: 'She did nothing'
But she did do something: She put the fear of dragons in them.
She gave them a hard reality check: My dragon can end all of your lives right now in 5 seconds.
And without uttering any words -- said to them: YOU are starting a war. And this war is gonna be fought with dragons. Here's a little peek of what that might look like for you.
We can go on and on about why she should've Dracarys-ed their asses and why she should NOT. We can argue for or against that for days -- from all angles of logic, rules of war, rules of succession, morality, mental health, right/wrong, loyalty, duty ...
They whisper this perpetual pondering into our minds and hearts every Episode: What is good/bad? What is right/wrong? What is justice/unfair?
And every argument will end like this: No matter what she did, the outcome would be a shitty one. THAT is the genius of this show! (the writing! The humanity, the reality, the fantasy IS reality)
If Rhaenys escaped with Meyles without bursting through the boards and not harming a single Small Folk -- war will still follow.
If Rhaenys did Dracarys their asses -- war will still follow.
If Rhaenys did or -- war will still follow.
The writers/creators give me hope in humanity. The story/show is so human and compassionate. But it makes me pointlessly ponder: "what really happened?" in that memorable moment in history ... whose memory? the people, their circumstances, their mental mindset ... what really happened? I want to learn more about the people behind the history instead of the most important events in history.
I'd rather have Rhaenys escape through one of the 40+ hillside exits to the dragonpit while maybe killing some gold cloaks in the process thus avoiding the unecessary staredown and subsequent questioning by viewers.
Agree. Condal in the BTS video said he knew this scene was going to be divisive. Probably best to avoided divisive scenes unless it's needed for the story
This scene was silly......
They could've done it way better than what we got..
But this particular version was silly and kinda stupid..
Yes, we can justify the actions..
Remember...... D&D also justified a certain scene by saying "Dany kinda forgot......" You know the rest...
So funny! You should do that intro every time!
Thank you for that analysis David , I was thinking that they had really dropped a clanger in this Episode . How you explained Rhaenyras behaviour made a lot of sense , I now have full faith in the show runners again
Maybe it would have worked if Aegon called for Sunfyre to protect him, Sunfyre puts himself between the greens and Meleys forcing Reyes to flee
Imo it already worked better as being Rhaenys's decision. Would've loved to see Sunfyre, though! ❤️
BUDGET CUTS!!!
I genuinely wonder if seeing what’s supposed to be the most beautiful dragon of all time attached to a character they CLEARLY do not want us to like, would undercut that feeling of “yeah take that b*tch down” for us lol
Loved every episode so far but this one. Cole killing Beesbury in that manner wasn't believable at all, it was silly & ridiculous. In my opinion that set the tone for the whole episode, silly & ridiculous.
With Rhaenys killing a bunch of innocent people seems out of character, however I can see how that will lead to something else later in the story.
Won't hate on it too much, not ready to jump ship like Galadriel yet... 😝
How did she burst through the floor and sustain all that debris without injury? Not even a helmet. You'd think at best, hit in the head by a giant stone, or worst, shmooshed while sitting on top of the dragon as it pushes upwards into the stone ceiling.
Presumably Melys flew head first and not, like, helicopter-style direct vertical?
I think suspension of disbelief is required here
This is a great explanation, of all d one's I have heard so far
Love the Soundgarden shout out.
I believe that when all is eventually known that Helaena's scenes in the show will be among the most important. She's the one speaking the truth, but, as with all prophecy in the series, the problem lays in how to interpret it. There's a temptation to fall into the trap of confirmation bias. We believe something to be true and see prophecies as confirming them, when in fact they mean something else entirely. And that's not just true of prophecy. In a series largely told to us by unreliable narrators and historians who may have their own agenda (as historians often do), it is easy to start to telling ourselves a story that we like while drifting further and further from the truth.
I think you're spot on.
I remember when Maggie The Frog told Cersei "you will wed the king" after Cersei asked "will I marry the prince".
So it would definitely seem like she's saying yeah you'll marry Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and he becomes the king.
We, of course, knew that that was not the case at all.
So there might be stuff like that with Helaena.
I still think that they should have not added this scene.
The benefits of getting rid of the riders of all 3 of the greens' biggest dragons, ESPECIALLY of Vhagar are too great. Vhagar is the big trump card the greens have in the war. Tessarion alone would stand no chance.
Furthermore, Rhaenys probably had an atleast decent possibility of taking Aegons kids as hostages, as they probably are in the red keep at the time. That would have been an excellent tool preventing any green/Hightower uprising.
Wether the common people would rise up for a lost cause by usurpers is very questionable also.
And lastly, Rhaenyra would NOT have been directly involved in killing all the usurpers, Rhaenys would have killed them. If a need for it would arise, the Queen could symbolically punish Rhaenys still.
Everyone at the time knew that war was at least VERY LIKELY, and the greens were actively couping the government and usurping the throne, it would imo be very easy to show how they were guilty of high treason (which they definitely are afterall!), and therefore deserved the death of traitors. For people who support Rhaenyras cause already, like Rhaenys, the case of usurpation is clear without the shadow of a doubt in particular.
I can understand a few reasonings given as to why she didnt do it, even though most of them are either questionable or outright weak.
But what is most important: Wether one now thinks that Rhaenys did the right and honorable thing or not, *what I think is without doubt true is that the scene is too questionable to add in.*
They should have kept to GRRMs version imo, much better, much less questionable.
And even for the goal of adding bad ass scenes for Rhaenys (which I am all for!), they could have atleast done it better. Give her better reasons not to burn them than "honor" compared to incredible advantages in the highly possible war, advantages against enemies that are definitely guilty of provoking the war themselves, if not nearly on their own causing it, and also definitely guilty of usurping the throne.
How would Rhaenys take Aegon's kids as hostages?
@@ivanacvetanovic7611 flying to the red keep with the red dragon.
If that seems to risky, fly to dragonstone really fast, come back with all the dragonriders together asap
@@sinthoras1917 She can't get into the castle with a dragon, and she'd have to fight the guards to get to the children. I don't think swordfighting is her thing.
@@ivanacvetanovic7611 it'd be highly unlikely that the castle is safely defended for the greens after all the leaders are dead. The chance of soldiers betraying them/ the castle just being surrendered to her are very high.
Also, the goldcloaks are still loyal to Daemon, so they likely would actually support her.
It's a chance though, as I said, not a certainty. It's certainly probable, even likely though
@@sinthoras1917 You're assuming way too much there. Rhaenys has no army. And why would the Gold Cloaks listen to her? She isn't even known to be close to Daemon.
Great video and helps me head canon some of the details, though I'm still against how the scene was portrayed on screen :/
When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground! 🔥🔥🐉🐉🐲🐲🐉🐉🔥🔥
I think haelenas beast references may have been foreseeing other events as well
Yea, for sure it’s B&C coming next season . Although it could be this situation and B&C. That’s why GRRM is such a great writer
B&C likely early in Season 2
The Stanis "fewer" joke will always get me...😆😆
the soundgarden burst was so perfect. I was cry laughing
Honestly this episode to me was probably the weakest (still ok) because of how different it was to the book. The Green Council, Otto plotting behind Alicent's back, Rhaenys and Meleys at the Dragonpit, the drawn out plot to get Aegon. It just felt a bit jarring to me. That Rhaenys and Meleys scene felt like more style over substance (GOT season 8) I do love the complexity of Alicent's character though. Looking forward to episode 10 for a certain "showdown"
@@asimhussain8716 yea... the episode does get worse the more I think about it. That last scene is really starting to annoy me the more I consider it...
Agree. Great video, ty ❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥
We should all be reluctant to murder the show over this poor creative decision. Let’s just hope moving forward they take less liberties for pure spectacle (really with we got Aegon riding Sunfyre instead like we did in the books, but that’s just me).
Reason: Plot Armor
Plausibility given the character's motivations and circumstances: Unbelievable.
cool thanks for ignoring everything I said in the video and leaving a comment anyway
The Mars Volta! Back together again and they're incredible live performers. Have fun!!
"The queen who didn't" i can't stoplaughing 😭😭
Love it 😂
I’M SO HAPPY WITH THIS EPISODE!! Eve Best is an amazing actress and I couldn’t be happier they gave this to her! She is such a great character already! But THIS addition just makes it better!! That look on her face, utter disappointment along with a “this is war bitch,” was MUAH CHEFF’s KISS
Nice Thelonious Monk poster, bro.
Soundgarden allusion very much appreciated!
First 45 seconds ".... I think David has joined with House Kar*snark*" and 😆😆
Let's not forget about her granddaughter back in Dragonstone (I presume) either. Saying princess Rhaenys cares about her granddaughters is an understatement.
RIP Lord Beesbury... lived for 6 years and 70 only to get crushed by a snooker ball.
Nope. The scene was pointless and impulsive and served absolutely no purpose other than fanservice and shock value . No discussion
facts
Miguel Sapochnik is the show runner responsible for stupid things like that. he won't be around for season 2 thankfully
@@MrAlex1036 🙏 I heard! Thanking the Gods.
I feel like the scene was still a little weak, even if I agree that she just was not ready to become a kinslayer, or even a plain murderer. Murder was not the only option there, she could have demanded her own terms, taken hostages, she was in complete control of the situation. She wouldn't even have to do it for Rhaenyra's sake, but just as a way to stop the coup and give the other Great Lords of Westeros more time to hear the news before a new king is crowned.
Another dragon showing up and forcing her to flee or get bloody would definitely have worked better on a logic frame of mind, even if it would deny us the character building of the trade of looks that went on.
"Rhaenys wasn't ready to be a butcher and start all the violence."
"If more of these high lords were reluctant to kill, as Rhaenys was in the Dragonpit, perhaps war could have been avoided."
I'm so glad you eventually got to the smallfolk lives, because the above lines were really boggling my mind. I don't care about any of the efforts to present her exit as triumphal. I care about the lives of the people she killed. And I'm not going to assume she had no other way out, when we have literally been shown another way in the actual show.
I am really not concerned about justifying Rhaenys's actions here, because to me they are not justifiable. I am concerned about justifying the existence of this part of the scene, which was a choice by the writers and did not need to happen.
I think it would have been better to have Rhaenys escape via the episode 1 exit, without killing a bunch of commoners (but perhaps some guards and dragonkeepers) - then have Aegon go on a triumphal riding of Sunfyre and see her getting away. However, Aegon does not fly after her - not out of mercy, but because he got instantly hooked on the admiration of the people and wants to show off to the city on dragonback. I think that would've still given us a moment where we can say "things could've turned out very differently if someone had made another choice here," while not radically rewriting the original story - plus it's more of a comment on Aegon's character, which is appropriate for an episode that is meant to focus on the Greens.
I'll have to disagree. Rhaenys has been shown to be a fairly reasonable person despite her clear beliefs on royal supremacy. We have no clarification on whether or not there was a separate exit that she could've gone through, especially considering this is a coronation and I doubt they wanted to take any risks with dragons getting loose. I'm not defending Rhaeny's actions, but it's clear that Rhaenys isn't willing to go straight into war, which can only really be declared by high lords anyways.
This escape scene gave us a prelude to Rhaeny's firey nature, which is something that's heavily noted in the source material, and I'd also say this scene showed a lot of Aegon's and Alicent's character as well. Aegon is engulfed in the admiration despite never wanting the throne, and Alicent is shown to be far more motherly than anticipated. It's my belief that this scene does a lot for character personalities and I think it's important we don't nitpick everything, especially when it doesn't have a huge effect on the story.
Yes, her exit may not be "triumphant" but it was badass, intense, and a real show of character on her part, which I think is something that many people enjoyed, despite it being a deviation from the source material.
I enjoyed green aegon and ham more than I reasonably should have