The Plugin That Changed Runescape Forever
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- Опубликовано: 28 окт 2023
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Today, we look at RuneLite's 'Ground Markers' AKA 'Tile Markers' plugin and the impact it's had on Old School Runescape's PvM culture.
Special Thanks To:
@AColdOneYT
@williesuede
Risuwu
Vuto
Isjustwunder
Song Used During A Cold One's Battle:
LISA: The Joyful OST - All American Badass (Noisemaker's Remix)
• LISA: The Joyful OST -...
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Yo jimmy theres something you might wanna censor in the pms at 7:47 lmao
Hey! Why the heck does the J1mmy clan keep kicking me? I'm not a troll I'm trying to learn and play the game. It's got to be a bunch of sweats running it not j1mmy. If I'm not pking or skilling the clan just kicks me I don't even type words! Need a quality check jimmy
Shaving is not hygienic, although shaving with a trimmer is probably the best way to do it
@@jiaan100 Manscaped wax kits and chemical solutions... Ultimate DIY laser hair removal... Forbidden evolution DNA modification hair extinction formula
@@Kununnboooo gay
tile
HE SAID IT! SOMEONE TAKE A SCREENSHOT!
i stood up and clapped when tile man stepped on the tile and said "it's tiling time" truly the casablanca of our generation
tile
tile
New idea
Hear me out, hear me out
Tileman…… no markers
A Cold One doing awakened Leviathan without plugins really drove the point home about how it feels like a different game. It was much more epic than all the videos I've seen of people doing leviathan. It was beautiful.
Did he learn it without plugins IE, did he learn the fight from beginning to end, without every using the plugin once. Because the route seemed very similar to the person with the plugins which only probably came up from someone "perfecting' the fight and putting the points in the plugin, yes?
He actually looked like he was dodging things just in time
@@Salsmachev I guess it's just the perception, since we were shown the fight first with plugins, then someone doing it without
@@Dkgow But the perception is the whole point. One feels like a mechanical sequence of events, the other feels like an immersive, exciting event.
For real. i 'got' Jim's point but then that video played and all of a sudden I actually understood what he meant. Made it hit way harder.
The problem with plugins like this is that it DOES affect how the devs handle things. As a result you have many players who rely on the plug-ins constantly complaining that stuff isn't hard enough while people who are playing an unmodified game and don't want to use plug-ins are struggling to play the vanilla experience. This sort of thing is unfortunately very common in MMOs nowadays.
It's almost equivalent to looking up the guide on how to beat a puzzle and then complaining that the puzzle was easy
@@NecromancyForKids It literally is that stupid, yes
Yeah I used to play everyday .. I got to the end game raids in August and I have less than 50 ToA expert raid completions and maybe touch the game once a week .. closer to once every 2 weeks.
Definitely made me quit the game and I’m sure others have quit for the same reason.
@@NecromancyForKids you nailed it
try doing a clue scroll with no runelite/guide
goodluck
This argument is going on in WoW right now too.
The devs assume everyone is going to use addons. DBM, BigWigs Boss Mods, etc.
As a result, they design fights so insanely difficult that you LITERALLY can't do them vanilla.
5 abilities that can wipe the entire raid group all happening at once and need pinpoint team coordination. You can't expect people to do that without addons.
*” given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game,”*
_-Soren Johnson & Sid Meier._
I was thinking about this the whole time. Water finds a crack
Literally everyone seems to ignore the context of that article and it drives me mental. When he says "players will optimize the fun out of things", it's not meant as a way for inbredditors to yell at anyone with pattern recognition. It's telling developers that when players resort to exploits, than there is a design problem. When players use things like true tile or ground markers, it's not because "they're optimizing fun out of a game" (even though his article literally starts with a quote that "fun" is a process and not a goal as every game is subject to optimization), but rather because the game has some poorly made element that limits the player. When you literally develop the Inferno around the idea of prayer flicking (something that is frankly an exploit), can you really blame players for using a plugin when nothing in the game even suggests that? When you make floors that is a single, flat color from corner to corner, can you blame players for using a plugin? When your game requires movement and your tick rate is 600ms, literally unplayable in any other game, can you blame players for using a plugin?
@@TheTundraTerror what the fucking neckbeard? Huh?
If you need plug-ins to play that's cool, just feel free not to write a term paper of cope next time. "I need my hand held," would suffice.
@@TheTundraTerror Yes, you can blame them. These plugins would be considered cheats in any other game. It's just a skill issue.
@@TheTundraTerror I'm not sure what your point is... you're right in that it is a design problem not a player problem.
that transition into cold one tearing leviathan a new one with no plugins was the hardest shit i've seen in a while
Hell yea
That shit SLAPPED
Yeah man I love sbemails
@@Rusty_Alex Slapped your ass?
Literally rewound it to rewatch that lol
27:20 Wills point is actually making a lot of sense, no normal player would be able to tell the difference in tiles, legit looks like MS paint bucket was used on half the floors in some places
That was exactly my thought when I started learning The Whisperer, the whole floor is the same colour how can I see where I'm gonna walk to without ground markers
I feel like the best example is the seren fight in sote, im like 90% sure its not black tiles they just literally turned off the rendering for the skybox and ground tiles, and that boss room feels disgusting to walk around and look at
Yep, other MMOs design their arenas with the important parts having some way to discern them, like a line on the ground showing the safe distance.
@@Fluid1227 What does it look like? I'm not seeing anything from an initial search.
@@alexanderbowers5225 google fragment of seren fight.
Wills blank floor take is top tier. The floors in the game are built to be tile marked now.
With the whisperer, part of the boss is looking for those roots coming out of the floor, I think the floor is probably intentionally bare to make it most obvious when to move. I agree, it could be a bit more interesting, but it's difficult if it covers up an attack that you have to react to within a few ticks.
I'm always running around looking for an NPC in the world and they're hidden until they move, everything blends in to the background so easily! I imagine the attacking roots would blend in a bit too much if the floor was covered in patterned decoration. Would like to see the suggestion implemented for other places though!
Will brings up a great point about Jagex’s floors. I think it would be cool to see high level bosses designed around safe tiles that Jagex had *already* marked for you with interesting floor designs. It would be the best of both worlds.
Jagex does disco floors for a lot of new content with this in mind, they’re slowly learning
A trend I've noticed is that the texture gradients of the ground pretty clearly delineate tiles in the overworld where you would want them to be smooth instead, and then in boss encounters the floor is monochromatic where you would want it to have texture gradients making it easier to see the tiles... Facepalm
thats literally a final fantasy 14 thing and it works great. the first thing you look at when learning a new boss is the floor patterns compared to where the boss places AOE's. there are always fine lines that cleanly split safe spots from danger spots.
Jamflegx rigs the game in favour of Yorkshiremen
usually its the players learning these methods though. ex: olm
That A Cold One clip was beautiful, and it drove your point home so impactfully. Props to him for the skill at the boss, and to you for your skill at demonstrating your thoughts so eloquently.
I was hoping someone said it! I actually enjoyed watching that clip.
Do you ever wonder what it would be like to be able to go back in time with your current day modern Runescape knowledge and own the kids playing back in 2007?
I'd be an rs God
I would be pretty sad. My acc was raised in sandcrabs, mm2 tunnels, and NMZ. It was also raised on bonds without much money made. Rs without bonds sounds unplayable, and I'd miss my training methods
i’d still be sitting in varrock saying “gf for dragon skirt?”
You'd be accused of being a hacker in two hours minimum XD
Yeh I'd be able to level so fast. I could 2 tick teak trees on fossil Island, spam birdhouses, afk in nmz, farm the forestry events, drift net fish, get good at hallowed sepulchre, farm herbiboar, wintertodt and gotr. Now I know these are the most efficient levelling methods, I'd level so fast in 2007
He made so much sense on Woox inferno accomplishment vs Rendi level 3 firecape. Both equally impressive but Woox's achievement feels more organic
It always seemed like this to me and games speedrunning especially highlights this. One is beating the game with given rules, another is breaking the game by either bending the rules or negating them. I've always preferred the latter, but can recognize the achievement in both.
it wasn't, though. it just looks that way to us on the outside, he said it himself. woox thinks like this already, but as outsiders we dont so it looks more organic. cold ones clear on levi used the redeye jedi tiles for boulder placement. so similar to woox, he just had the correct squares memorized. is that any different from having them visually on the ground? maybe im missing the plot here but i see no difference, i see both woox and cold one clear those fights and they look the same to me, i recognize every tile they're standing on and why and it doesnt change a single thing for my perception of what they're doing, because mechanically its identical. maybe i cant see past my own experience with the content.
@@CoffeeKitty. I get your point but I don't think it matters whether Woox & others at his level of gaming skill see the game as reality breaking fractals or concurrent computational operations or just as what is presented visually, since on the surface level they are still playing the game with its known rules. In other words they're mastering it by being exceptionally good at it. In comparison someone like Rendi, as incredibly skilled as they are too, struggles greatly with execution and gets nervous (his own words) so he seeks to bend the rules as much as possible in his favor.
@@CoffeeKitty. Yeah but woox is on a different level. I meant more as it was something new, a challenge that hadn’t been accomplished trying to make new strategies. Lvl 3 jad also had to do that but on the expense of abusing mechanics. Both are impressive but woox’s felt more like a challenge against the monster and rendi’s more against algorithm imo. Both impressive nonetheless
Everyone with a fire cape was trying to do the Inferno. Only Rendi and one other dude cared about doing lvl 3 fire cape. Woox's was on a bigger scale because he championed original content first. Rendi did the most impressive remix, but it wasn't a widespread race...
To Will's point, I would love to see the devs embrace tile markers into the graphical design of PvM encounters. Having important tiles clearly out with dirt and rocks and ferns instead of a technicolor grid would go a long way.
Its rough tho cuz its ple meta players that are discovering these tile markers, not the devs. the players prove again and again that they can find way to break bosses they werent meant to be broken so easily. My point is if they implement this, the players will find a better one anyways and now we got fern and rocks on the side.
Honestly, what I'd like to see is something like how other MMOs handle their markers. They limit them to a specific number, and I think that could go a long way.
@@kainserna3517okay, but why not after a while of players doing this on new content you put down like a new texture map based on a heating player movement. Like where the tiles are worn more than the others, because that’s where players spend more time.
Yeah and its giving a mouse a cookie until one day the game is dead because "its too easy" or "its not fun because it plays itself."
*Remember when people played games for the fun of playing the game?* Sure sure. Tell me you're having fun now. And I'll keep my I told you so until the rollout of videos complaining about problems the community created by min maxing the fun out of everything. Its so predictable too.
Yeah I’ve been begging for someone to make this a plugin forever now. I try to only use tile markers while learning content then remove them later, but some things are near impossible without it. Would love to be able to place rubble or something on a tile instead.
A Cold One’s clip gave me that same feeling I used to get watching Woox videos. You’re right, clicking marked tiles cannot compare
One of the worst things that can happen to an MMO is when the developers listen to the most hardcore, skilled players when they say "The game is too easy, we need more hard content." Making hard content for an MMO is fine, but putting too much focus on 1% of the playerbase's wishes, when the reality is that 99% of the players will never see that content, is a terrible decision for any game that depends on a huge amount of active players.
Imagine an OSRS without CAs
OSRS has this problem on seemingly all fronts in the past couple years. You get people not wanting general skill xp rates to go up even a small amount per hour because of this great method that only the sweaty people do for hours on end (tick manipulation/ high intensity methods in general). PVM you have people saying that they haven't gotten anything truly complex, yet not realizing the majority of players are not doing any of the "Truly" high end bosses that have been released. PVP/ PKing has had this problem for years where Jagex really on listens to a handful of players, or just the predators in the pking side of things. Hell it even has affected Quests IMO where almost all these bigger master or grandmaster quests have pretty difficult final boss fights for the average/casual players. Seemingly only because the most vocal part of the community is saying xyz thing is not hard enough.
Absolutely, then it’s just a race to the bottom making stupidly hard combat in a game that was never designed for hard combat. GWD style pvm is as hard as RS should have ever gotten.
Welcome to feature creep. The only way to stop it is to ban addons early and often. Can't put the toothpaste back into the tube!
I don't know man, casual-pandering seems to destroy games faster. Too often games end up ruined when developers alienate their dedicated player just for the sake of attracting new players. In the end, the dedicated players leave, and the new ones were never committed in the first place, game becomes dead. Also, difficult content is a compass, it gives intermediate players something to strive for - without a good endgame, there is no reason to stick around.
There is for sure a balance here, but not giving the most dedicated players content is a huge mistake, unless you actually want to water down the game and lose the niche, because let's be real here - runescape is fairly niche. Lose that identity, and the game becomes indistinguishable from the mass of games out there.
The feeling of necessity is 100% true
As someone who does most of his playing on mobile and gets to go on the PC not as much as he would like, it feels like I have to wait until I get to use runelite to do so much of the content in this game
10000% I've had to do this multiple times and help my friends with this idea. Especially since some of them want to AFK at work and wanted help with higher level stuff
As someone who stopped playing Runescape awhile back and moved to FFXIV, this reminds me a lot of the discourse that went on a few months back in the FFXIV community when the newest hardest raids in the game were beaten with plugins that showed players more information than the game normally would allow. Things like showing where normally unmarked AOE effects would be, or whether you were facing a certain direction (FFXIV has some mechanics that are based on where your character is facing and if they are looking at certain things) which I would consider that games equivalent of ground markers in OSRS.
In FFXIV, the general consensus among the player base was that tools like that were cheating because the game already gives you a lot of visual information to communicate to the player what is happening. The ground texture of boss arenas often has some kind of pattern to it that you can use as reference for where to stand or where certain effects are happening. For example in The Omega Protocol raid, the floor texture is a series of concentric circles, meaning you can use it as a quick reference for how far you are from the center or the edge, so you say "stand on the 3rd ring from the edge of the map" to do a mechanic. I think that Runescape could use this strategy to great effect, by having more detailed floor patterns players could use those as reference for where to stand and what to do.
Now FFXIV does have 8 built in ground markers, but these are much more limited. You have 8 shared between the entire team, and you can't have any more. These are often just used as basic markers of N/S/E/W because in most fights, that's all you really need, and the floor pattern alone is enough to tell where you are and if you are positioned correctly.
Obviously OSRS is a very different game that functions differently from FFXIV, but as someone who has put thousands of hours into both games, I find it interesting to see how both games/communities approach the same thing.
Edit: For any RS players unfamiliar with FFXIV raids, just look up any video of a Savage or Ultimate raid (savage is mid-high difficulty fights, ultimate are the hardest fights) and think about what it would be like if RS bosses by default, without plugins, gave you that much clear information about what was happening.
When I played 14 the amount of groups I just left bc one or more people were using cactbot was insane. The skill level in that game is so low it's crazy
@@RealSkaiOW It depends a lot on the team/player. I've personally seen less reliance on cactbot in my raid teams in the past few years. If you are in VC with a good leader/shot caller then you don't really need it. The big issues people have with plugins now are the ones for extra aoe markers and zoom hacks (not to mention the recent controversy over botting programs that are able to flawlessly execute damage rotations). Everyone in the teams I play with frowns upon those kinds of plugins, and I personally rarely raid with anything beyond a basic DPS meter these days.
Super similar in Guild Wars 2. The end game challenge raids and strikes are incredibly hard, and raid groups have a limited number of marker tiles they can place on the ground and it just feels… better. Cooler.
When I started playing 14 I realized what a crush DBM was in WoW. Just do as the game says instead of learning mechanics.
@@robertmahiques6218Honestly this Is how I feel.
People complaining about bosses not being hard enough is like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs to find your way back through a maze after being to the centre then claiming it was easy as you exit. J1mmy top tier content as always and im with you on this one, placing ground markers at every available logical spot is basically playing another version of the game and it looks awful.
As someone who has been playing RS on and off since 2006, I have never really gotten into PVM content because I get so anxious about it. When Trailblazer League came around, I remember I chose the elf lands because I wanted to learn how to do Zulrah, and tile markers were absolutely invaluable to learning, along with a plugin to learn the rotations. Tile markers were the help that I needed to help me feel confident enough that I could fight something other than a hill giant and not be scared I was going to die
They are a good tool for the new player learning content and understanding how movement works in relation to a boss' mechanics. I think one of the bullet points of the argument was more about that truly high level players (gnomonkey, tasty, woox, boaty, cold one, etc.) are all good enough to do this content without all these plugins, yet some of them continue to use them and bemoan that Jagex doesn't put out "hard enough" content, all while their screen has zillions of tiles marked and things that hold their hand for them to tell them exactly how a fight goes down.
Vorkath's fire barrage was the first time I learned the hard way that your character is not where he appears to be when moving lol. The true tile indicator makes it 10 times easier, but I have to admit that I started using it everywhere ever since and it definitely does kill the immersion to some degree
Same. I kept getting rocked by vorkaths fireballs and for the life of me couldn't understand why. Then I finally saw a video explaining it, true tile indicator Saves lives.
same here lmao, the day I learned you aren't actually where your character is
This is probably the best runescape video ever created no lie. This explains both sides of the game perfectly and a 5 year old could probably understand how runescape works mechanically. Absolutely phenomenal job in this one.
ngl that Leviathan kc without plugins is probably the coolest pvm encounter I've seen :)
I think one issue that has really pushed the tile markers is the difficulty level of bosses. The bosses that get released have extremely high learning curves if your not already very skilled at PVM. On top of that if you want to progress you pretty much have to do bossing. 95% of the most worthy drops are through bosses and not everyone has that skill level. Tile markers give people a way to ease into mechanics as well as help efficiency when you have to grid for 50 hours to get the drop you want. Also another note is the sheer amount of things going through someones head when bossing. prayer flicking, gear swaps, mechanics, healing, tick manipulation, where to step and when. Ground markers help you focus on those aspects. Ive been playing for a good while and i remember when combat was just point and click, no more, no less. The evolution of this game over the years is crazy.
I have struggled as an iron man. Who doesn't have all day to play.
A lot of the best gear for pvm'ing is locked behind other PvM content. And a lot of that content is locked behind having certain items such as saradomin brews which take a very long time to farm or to get the herbing level/mats for. I had a fun time as an iron all the way through mid game but as soon as I hit the top end it really feels like my only option to really have 300-500 tries at a boss is to use the AH to buy the items or mats that I need without burning thousands of hours. It would be nice to have some other ways to get good gear. There are a lot of people that love skilling and I don't see why the two can't and shouldn't be linked. Certain skilling bosses definitely should have rare drop rates on end game content which can be used in PvM. Hell or at least give us more than 2 ways to farm sara brews.
Hell it's is not like you could just do Tempoross, get a good harpoon and go to PvM you would have to get the combat levels and learn the mechanics aswell but it's just another option instead of for irons what is now a very clear cut gear progression that involves learning and gearing from every single boss to even attempt a lot of the newer end game content.
Hey look, a good take. The number of hours you'd need to learn each thing individually is astronomical. Each boss would take weeks of trial and error. Private chat groups would still share metas among the elite players, and all that would happen is the below average and average players would be scaled out of the game. OSRS is a information based game, and making each person find out that information on their own makes this a very niche and unpopular game.
I've felt this way about Ground Markers and most plugins for a long time and nobody I commonly game with sees it like I do. I miss being able to see the bosses, the environments, etc. I am guilty of using the markers myself, but I try to minimize them as much as possible so I can remember this game isn't just ticks and squares. Great video!
The _A Cold One_ bit is absolute fire, mate. Great music choice, editing, setup, everything. Smashed it!
I've been listening to this track a ton since seeing this the other day.
“You get to pick your favorite direction to go, you have 8 to choose from. Pick your favorite one, or the one that doesn’t get you killed” I choose the former a bit too often as opposed to the latter
That intro cinematic is worth a like by itself. Can't wait to watch the rest of the video!
I legit gasped and just sat staring as A Cold One killed the Leviathan, that shit was actually crazy, huge respect to him and you're right, it felt like RuneScape again. It felt like he was fighting the boss.
As a casual player, a lot of the stuff that is the 'end game content' is forever out of my reach, even with things like Tile Markers and True Tile and metronomes and the wiki and everything, so I definitely always feel a little... put off when people want more difficult and harder content forever and always, nothing is the limit, especially when it comes to games that have been around for 20 years and more. When does it reach a point that something is so difficult that it's 'enough'? When a human is no longer capable of it?
LOVED THIS ONE JIM!
- nailed the video editing
- kept the topic on point
- made it HILARIOUS!
Solid job, your work is greatly appreciated and we all love you!
Cold One going dirt nasty on awakened leviathan was cool as hell.
It's one of those issues where I think plugins make this game potentially more accessible, but you lose something at the same time. Now that these plugins are allowed, Jagex now has to take that into account when designing new content, potentially making it less accessible to those who don't use them. You make great point about A Cold One and Woox's skill even without these plugins. I think a way to build from here could be doing something like Blizzards Mythic Dungeon International, which could challenge some of the best players in completing high end content on vanilla clients.
i was honestly kinda late to the plugin party cuz i was kinda against it , now i use plugins and i actually am still against it but simply cant go without it cuz it litterly makes the game 10x easier.....as example think about clue scrolls lol you litterly dont have to do anything anyore
@@owningkoning Does it have to be 10x easier?
Majority of OSRS content is not that difficult from purely mechanical viewpoint
After learning about tiles and movement in osrs I started saying that "playing runescape is like real time chess"
The shifting game design ideas and desires of a company and community that gets better at the game is a VERY complex topic that is also explored through the lense of raiding in WoW in a video by Dan Olson/Folding Ideas in the "why it's rude to suck at Warcraft" video, I think it would be worth a watch to expand your talking points and maybe even make a follow up!
Keep up the great work 🎉
This isn’t PVM, but with the most recent forestry update, doing the events on my phone is pretty fun! I have to hunt around for the right pair of flowers, pay attention to the pheasants, examine the shapes, etc. But on the computer I just kinda… click on squares. It feels more like an interruption to woodcutting than a minigame as a result.
More solo content that isn’t end game (and doesn’t require plugins) would be nice.
"tOo EaSy!! JaGeX hAS FoRsAkEn ThE HLC!!"
Varlamore lookin good
Exactly. There's alot more people not in end game than in the end game. If the game is only tailored for the the high levels, than there would be no fun being low to mid level and thus, no new players. A game without low to mid level players is a dead game
Why do we want more solo content in an MMO that is already 95% solo content
Love the editing for the cold one part, was awesome to watch 👌
J1mmy these essay videos are my favorites of yours, I noticed they don't get as many views sometimes but they hold up great
HLC: There is no hard enough content in the game
MLC: play without plugins
HLC: no it's too hard
So cool to see a big time content creator saying things that I've always said. I've never been a huge fan of max efficiency runescape. Totally agree with you on all points J1mmy!
Great video and all, but man, your editions and effects keep getting better and better! very entertaining to watch
So to note, I'm not a RS player. Very heavily into FFXIV, but I enjoy watching certain RS youtubers because they seem cool. The biggest thing I've noticed so far is that the game itself seems to be a lot less about "kill this boss", and turned into "stand at this tile when you see this animation and it'll negate the attack". The first thing I noted when I saw the clip of Woox clearing that boss, is how unlike an Ultimate Tile Click simulator it is. Yes he's hitting specific tiles, but he's doing it to hide behind the wall, rather than because this is the tile the wall is on for this tick of the fight. It changes the focus of the fight from the tile to that wall instead, and why he's behind it. And I got the same feeling when watching The Cold One do it without plugins. I know he's clicking on tiles because he's likely memorised the entire fight, but it feels way more like he's dodging attacks, instead of just pressing a tile at the right time.
OSRS has millions of players that engage with the game over each year. Out of that group of players roughly less than 5,000 total players could even remotely say they are on woox level. They only got to woox level by studying and paying attention to metas, and using the right plugins. You want to make it where this ultra .001% is now even more rich and affluent? How is that better? It's like saying if you aren't Global rank in Counter Strike you shouldn't even bother playing.
@@CajunGator I feel like you're missing the point. I would also lower the difficulty to increase the pool of people that could do these. Jagex likely release new content with these plugins in mind, so they can up the difficulty and make things harder to the point where the plugin is required. So if you remove the plugins, remove some of the difficulty that makes the plugin feel required. Still make it a very tough challenge but a more accessible one so that anyone can feel like they can do it.
It's an interesting tale to be sure, I think there are some parallels to WoW and how the game changed once raid and build guides became pretty much instantly available as soon as each patch dropped, if not a week before.
That surprise A Cold One no plug-in Awakened Leviathan hit so hard. Props to you, J1mmy. I haven’t been able to verbalize why I haven’t gotten into modern PVM, but you hit the nail right on the head. PVM & plug-ins have transcended to the point that devs are having to think wildly out of the box for new content. Which in itself is cool, but I recognize with every PVM update I drift further and further into the non-PVM abyss. The barrier to entry grows by the day, and I worry about a future where only OSRS veterans can do what will be considered modern pvm at that time.
They’re designing new bosses to try and solve this issue. They want new players to have an easier way to get into endgame pvm.
This is exactly how I felt when I played WoW a few years ago. Everyone was using different plug-ins and my guildmates kept telling me to install them, but I couldn’t. I liked how the game and menus looked, and I certainly didn’t want my screen cluttered with all the additional stuff. The game was telling me enough for me to play the game well and have a visually pleasing screen to look at.
Always love a good J1m video essay
will's comedic breakdown was the perfect end to the video. legend
Great video and choice of topic. I fall nearest to B0aty here. True tile/destination tile is great, but it takes away from my sense of immersion when it looks like my character is running around on an Excel spreadsheet.
Nicely put together video jimmy seriously your raising the bar on RS content. Way more engaging than just some hypercam
Underrated video, I've had so much fun watching this, thanks!
I find it a bit interesting how different bossing on the two versions of the Runescape has become because of this. In Old school you see these tile markers everywhere telling you or remembering you where to stand and go, meanwhile in RS3 videos I don't think I've ever seen one. But that might be because of the reason also explained at 27:16
Bossing is less about standing in specific places and more about using your abilities to avoid or mitigate damage. Mechanics involving avoid the tile are also much clearer and more choreographed. Not perfect, but much better. Look at a Kepherac HM run and you'll see what I mean
Rs3 players literally want tile markers. There’s tons of high level players advocating for it. Osrs just has it cause of RL. The difference is the client.
(it’s actually a way bigger issue in rs3 since the ground doesn’t clearly indicate where tiles end and begin)
The new evolution of RS is upon us!
We went from childern of wonder. To cycle nerds. Now, its time to bring imagination and knowledge full circle!
26:25 agagaga
good times J1mmy, i just wanna say i fondly remember your streams when going for the quest cape, which undoubtedly seeme to be your motivation for By Release. lots of funny moments xD. loving the content 🙌💗
This was a especially great video!
I have tiles marked in the hydra room and every time I go in I say to myself "What if... I turned those off?" I think next time I get it, I'll do that and see how it goes. It might be fun.
Also, that leviathan bit was freaking wild to watch. Great work on the editing and holy hell that gameplay was something else.
I was on my way to my daughters birth when I saw Jimmy dropped. I'm a single father now but great vid Jim! Keep up the good work!
Great video J1mmy. I think you could easily fluff this story more. For example, if we did remove tile markers, what would happen?
Firstly, a demand for cheats. Streamers would pay extra (like they do for FPS games) for cheats that easily integrate with OBS. Jagex would open up another front vs cheaters.
Most people would rightly complain that the ground textures need updating, and this would create more work for an already frail development studio.
How would the majority of top PVM'ers perform without their tile markers?
Also, with the new TD bosses, I experienced content creators start these fights with zero tile markers and work through it. Although the tile markers are blatant crouches (it's a good analogy, because as an old timer, my vision and reactions aren't what they used to be) people still had to think through the mechanics and then place the tiles, and what tiles they placed and for what reason was personal at release.
Finally, we tie the previous point of fresh experience to the modern day "google a guide" culture of gaming.
I understand why you kept this 30 minutes but I could have easily heard more. Great video, bravo.
I remember the first time I ever played runescape with my friend in their basement and even all the way back then by the time I followed them to Varrock and had black equipment I was seeing the game in tiles and I have never been able to go back.
My eyes automatically breakdown runescape floor textures into walkable squares, dangerous squares and so on. It has been really fun for me seeing people use this plugin and see in a similar way to how I have always played.
great video j1m honestly very thought provoking, love it man!
How did he get the shots where the whole world is visible like at 4:55?
I wanna know too, looks so cool from that perspective
@@squidmanfedsfeds5301its a website shows free range osrs
They will soon become required, the harder they make newer content the more and more people will start using them kinda like WoW its almost required to use some addons
WoW has had this problem with raiding content for years and years. And it only gets worse with time. WoW retail absolutely requires tons of addons to properly operate the game, and RS is gonna go the same way. Until lots of players stop playing because "its not fun anymore for some reason."
@@Moe_Posting_Chad This to me is why the classic content was such a breath of fresh air. I've been having a blast with it, and I recently tried logging in to one of my characters on retail, and the interface was so overwhelming that I almost immediately logged off again. Before you even get to any content you're absolutely bombarded with UI elements in a way that you just weren't 10-15 years ago unless you drowned yourself in addons. It's just not fun to me.
World of Warcraft has this same problem where you have a weakaura pack that will tell you when every mechanic is coming. If you have a guild turn those off, there is almost no way they could clear the content without relearning the fight and the devs have said that they develop new mechanics around the idea that players will be using a weakaura to tell them when a mechanic is happening.
Maybe there is no solution to this and MMO as a gameplay style is still halfway baking in the oven. One day, the full dive VR haptic feedback mmo will come. And it will only be a 50/50 chance of it being a Saw murder game?
I think FF14 learned from WoW's plugins by making 100% sure EVERY boss has a super clear floor to read. Folks use in-game markers but you can only place a few. I love it. No plugins needed! And positioning is just as important in FF14 as it is in OSRS.
Great vid mr. jim jam. Absolute pleasure to watch. Editing, music, humor, story etc. *chef kiss*.
J1mmy guiding the noobs one video at a time, champ.
I fully agree with the point you put across in this video as I understand it. The plugins are great, but they're exegetic. It's just really impressive when someone plays the game "the way it was meant to be played" and just has that innate understanding of it.
People want the appearance, the aesthetic of mastery. But they don't want to do the work to actually master the activity.
@@Moe_Posting_Chad You ever try to kill Olm in a duo iron raid without tile markers, moe posting chad?
Have you put in the work to "master the activities," moe posting chad?
@@Tikky503 I played this game when I was like seven years old. I am now a grown man and *I don't play a game to recapture the glory days.*
@@Moe_Posting_Chad ... so you peaked in second grade?
@@hi-i-am-atan No. I played RuneScape in second grade. It was fun. I moved on whenever I did. And now as a man I don't go back to revisit the loading screen simulator. *I value my time. So I seek out new experiences* and refine the skills I've learned. Do you know how liberating it is to draw something from your imagination? You know how flattering it is when your friends see your art hanging up and tell you how its the sickest thing!
*You don't get that from playing idle games.*
Fantastic video J1mmy and the editors. great job.
I’ll be sure to thank me and me for editing this!
awesome video mate. well done!
I did a good amount of rs3 pvm for a while and we have broadly the same mechanics (at least, wrt movements and ticks) with no plugin support - there’s a built in way to see target tiles and that’s about it. And especially in the harder bosses there you really start to feel like the tick system really holds the game back, really makes the game so much more unfair than it could be (araxxi web I’m looking at you). If you want to beat these bosses you HAVE to build your own wooxvision and the imprecision of your knowledge about exactly where your character is or will path to or exactly when your attack will come out makes it so much more frustrating when you get it wrong. It makes the bosses and the arenas and the attack animations so much less important and instead it’s “ok how do these telegraphs project onto this shitty engine?” I honestly wish rs would find a way to move past the tick and grid systems.
Well put, Rax was the last boss I had fun with in RS3 and even then I NEVER went for enrage chains above 100%. Thankfully I played on local servers so the ticks on webs weren't as awful as I know they can be with even a smidge of lag. What annoyed me most with the tickrate was the last phase's chaser projectile needing you to babysit it and flick prayers at the same time and the occasional fuckery with the suicide spiders.
If RS is ever going to bring me back, it needs to up its game with the tickrate and stop pandering to modders. Until then, I'm content with XIV as my MMO of choice.
Yeah, a lot of us noticed this mechanic when we were watching Woox's stream when he was doing Inferno. And lots of others needed the plugins before they even recognized the validity of this technique.
Super enlightening video Jim, nicely done ❤
I am a player who has only experienced osrs through mobile. Started when launched on ios i think 2016/17 ish. Not until recently has tile indicators been available on mobile, and it has helped my pvm, alot. Knowing when i have miss clicked has helped me so much. Jimmy- i really felt ya on that 1 kc on Corrupted gauntlet. Love the points you make and Cold one’s murder of awakened Leviathan was ❤❤❤ best content i’ve seen in along time. (New subscriber)
I'm in a small group of people that doesn't like the QoL plugins that OSRS relies on. Part of why I like RS3 still, alt 1 doesn't interfere with how the game itself is approached.
i'm also in an even smaller group that plays only rs3 because it's where my Main resides and don't want to start over again when there's still so much left for me to do.
luv u jimbo
I’m right there with you, although I no longer play either.
@@SkylarTrahan F, I will bury bones in your memory.
@@knoxianpandadon’t bother not worth the xp lol
I know this is impossible for their spaghetti code but it would be so sick if within their own client they update so that you can “mark tiles” but make it look more natural. Like some rocks that come up or roots, even actual tiles if the room has a tiled floor. But making that environmental change for each individual according to their needs/wants and still make it look naturalish would be so cool
What an effective proof: I’d seen people doing Awakened Leviathan before and my eyes always glazed over: I didn’t care.
When you showed A Cold One doing it without plugins, within SECONDS I was more engaged than I had been in all other attempts total and combined
Hey J1mmy, doubt you'll see this but... I haven't played Runescape since i was in my early teens. These videos are an awesome connection to a game I once cherished. Not many things online make me feel nostalgic while also being truly entertaining and getting me to actually laugh out loud. Thanks for what you do and keep being the fucking man!
I think RuneScape should do what FFXIV does, *design* the stage itself to *be* the ground markers. Most arenas in ffxiv will have some form of pattern, feature, or decal that hints the player on the size or alignment of boss mechanics, such that you can orient yourself at all times.
Calling olm an "aquatic salamander" is bold.
In real life Olms are little Aquatic Salamanders
They are blind troglobites salamander/newts that resemble axolotl (still possess gills as adults) that eat detritus entering their cave environment from the outside.
If you know the lore he evolved tho he's not just ANY aquatic salamander. @@GoodraGirly
that beat while stone cold slaps around his tapeworm goes hard
True dude, and i don't think it's only in osrs we see stuff like this happening (overtuning bosses) WoW did it it in their Shadowlands expansion overtuning the raid trying to "challenge" players who use plugins to make the game simpler/easier. Now players complain they don't get any new hard content that challenges them, but they forget the fact they have 7 different plugins helping them see certain things better and that they mastered the game 5 years ago.
Man argues with an imaginary person for 20 minutes
Great vid, its no longer a boss fight, its player vs a logic problem presented by the plugin. The statements about the bosses aren't complex or hard enough, but rely heavily on plugins. A lot of ppl prefer OSRS for nostalgia and how it used to be, but have plugins that are so divorced from the game.
Love this. Alot of fun. Good points made.
That's a great point from itswill, maybe the boss room floors need an overhaul, especailly that one he showed lol. It really is just a blank canvas. And it doesn't have to be the exact tile marks, but at least some kind of repeatable reference or something that fits in with the lore like decorative floor tiles or something. Same thing with like Olm and the quadrants, maybe some kind of effect that illuminates the exact portion of the room he's looking at.
The main reason I quit OSRS was because of how difficult high level combat got. I didn't want to learn grid patterns and timing especially when a single mistake ended the whole attempt. It was costly in time and gp to learn.
Yah, for me it was the constant need to use the wiki and every player made resource out there. A game shouldn't require the need of a wiki to enjoy the experience, because most new players will not know what to do when first joining and just quit outright.
Sorry if this comment was unwanted.
I do not play with Tile markers, no bad vibes against those that do!
I tried to on Vardevois but once things start kicking off with bosses I lose focus and just end up brute forcing my way banging my head against bosses until I get through..
Currently getting 85-90 magic before going back to whisperer since after 30+ tries and barely getting a few seconds into Respawn phase before dropping I realised I need more DPS!
Fantastic Video as always Jim!
Great vid. My main concern and you kind of touched on it is, the Dev's will create content based on the plug-ins available. Fights will be "tuned" with plug-ins in mind. Forcing players to use them or to be at a severe disadvantage.
im gonna need more than ground markers to do PVM :(
I can't believe I have to thank someone for crediting content used in their video, but here I am. Because EVERY FCKING TIME there is a song I really like in a video, there is 0 credit and Shazam has no friggin clue what the song is.
Shazam actually didn't even know this time, and I'm sorry for not checking the DESC first, but I am so used to no credit being given, that I result to Shazam first.
But thank YOU for crediting the song for The Cold One battle, cause I like weird funky grunge music like that and.. well, that song is really funky nice haha
your videos always makes my mornings a bit better!
I have no strong opinion on the markers. I use them for some bosses, for others I don't.
But what I can say is that the decision-making ship for it has sailed. If it was to be banned, it should have been years ago BEFORE bosses were designed with the markers in mind. So the best we can do is embrace them. And hell, it makes people who clear bosses without them look even more badass.
Wow, really high effort videos my man!
If anyone was curious, the stats displayed for boss rankings are Gnomonkey :P
Needed this after a rough day at work. Thank you J1M 🐐
If you want to try and bring back runescape feel you like but still use plugin features, I think there are two things you can do.
1) Make the tiles and strategies yourself. If you are the one making them, it will feel like you are putting more of your efforts like understanding them without tiles.
2) Design the tiles to look less like neon glow stick squares and make them like markers made of paint, sticks, rocks, or whatever. That way, this will retain that immursion in the game by making the tiles visually make more sense.
If they are making challenges based around these plugins, then its best to try and turn it into a fathful mechanic. I'm surprised that they didn't try to make these pluggins actual in-universe features, like magic paint that can be drawn on the ground. Maybe you could get a map of the arena and draw your battle strat which then apears on the map.
Never looked at it like that, great video!
Your music supervision is on point my dude 🎉
Man that intro just cracked me up. Beautifully done Jimbo you make my day :)
Amazing vid, great points. When DT2 came out, it took me 36 hours. no plugins, no tile markers, no guides, no videos. Was I ridiculed for how long it took? yea. Does that mean I suck? yea, probably. Did I try using a halberd to kill the leviathan? You know it. Did I think the dragon axe would be good against a zombie vampire tree? Yep. Did I have the time of my life with all of this while flailing through puzzles and bosses? Hell yea.
Don't forget that the games a game guys, try and have your fun while you can remember how it used to feel 20 years ago
It's funny i was just wondering yesterday when your next video would drop and here it is! 😂😂
It took me a long time to turn on Tile Indicators and even longer to turn on True Tile. Not because I was being stubborn, I just didn't know or think it was important for the low-mid level content I was doing. But then I did turn it on and realized how it made a lot more things possible for me like Vorkath or Grotesque Guardians
Instead of creating a need for using external plugins, Jagex could integrate the information you need into the game itself. The only reason things like true tile and ground markers exist, as Will pointed out, is because this is vital information and vanilla simply doesn't provide it (ground markers being a bit different since they're used to more memorize patterns, but it doesn't help that the floors are sometimes mono-colored as Will showed). NPC highlighting exists because some NPCs simply aren't visible enough or distinct enough from each other.
A great example of Jagex removing the need for a plugin is Hunleff. Plugins like the Hunleff helper existed because there initially wasn't any form of audio cue for indicating attack changes, and these changes ended up correctly being identified by Jagex and implemented which removed the need for the plugin. I would personally love to see Jagex put more emphasis on eliminating the need for plugins in the first place.
j1mmy make a documentary telling teh story about how the inferno was made. No one has done that yet and I think you're the man up for it