The grind he's talking about, when you push yourself relentlessly to get better and better, is what allows you to have a flow state. First you grind to to the maximum of your time and ability. This takes many years. Then, when you feel you are good enough, you can easily enter a flow state, where muscle memory takes over and you stop thinking and just do. First grind then flow.
It sounds like these two gentlemen are disagreeing with Mihaly, but Mihaly outlines this in his framework. "Flow" is not the state where you learn the most, but rather the state of "Arousal" is where you learn the most. This is where your skills are being challenged because they're not up to par. You're in a state of discomfort. It sounds like neither of them have dug deeply into the "Flow" book nor Mihalyi's research because the late Csikszentmihalyi would agree with them. If you want to get better at something, "flow" is NOT where you want to be. Flow is where your skill level is up to par with the challenge. The discomfort from challenging yourself comes in the "Arousal" state because you're vexed.
Focus for practice and flow during performance. I found these out without science but by meditation and life experience. I assert immense energy and focus on what I need to learn but when it comes to doing what I learnt, I never perpetuate thinking or rationalizing what I am doing. Rationalizing breeds polarities of ideas, positive and negative which may hinder performance however is great when practicing prior to a performance - since failing in practice requires one to think both negative and positive aspects to actually grow and progress in whatever they practice. Flow is a crucial state also, It is like a fighter that trains with intense concentration and discomfort, but once he enters the ring, his concentration is not required, his attention may be directed to the noisy crowd hence breeding distractions to performance. However, in flow (a meditative state) he can let his instincts take over. However there are exceptions, you have to think inbetween of flow states to keep your self sailing towards the right course, flow is great for performance but concentration is key for direction. I dont believe we need science to tell us these. Any human that pays attention to their own functions can realize and train these aspects of themselves without words like flow and so on.
By YouSum Live 00:00:07 Professional musicians focus on deliberate practice, not comfort. 00:00:30 Deliberate practice involves pushing past comfort zones. 00:03:00 Neuroplasticity requires discomfort to trigger learning. 00:06:23 Deep work necessitates intense concentration, not flow. 00:06:48 Deliberate practice and flow are distinct for skill development. 00:07:27 Flow is more about performance than skill improvement. 00:07:54 Virtuosity may involve surprising elements during performance. By YouSum Live
tldw: in order to improve you need deliberate practice. deliberate practice is hard. deliberate practice is not flow. flow does not fit into Newport's deep work framework.
To enter a flow state, a high degree of familiarity with the task is essential. The brain must be able to switch to autopilot, much like when driving a car or playing a musical instrument. In this state, actions become automatic, and the mind disengages from conscious thought, allowing for a seamless and effortless performance. Flow is rooted in non-thinking, where focus and skill align perfectly, enabling a person to fully immerse in the activity without distractions.
My takeaways: There can't be flow in learning or practicing. Practicing is done by focusing and in uncomfortable state of mind. Then flow is achieved in the work where we are applying our learnings.
good enough. i wish they addressed practicing/learning towards a state of flow about learning (like perfecting a strategy, around discipline, reframing that stress that's supposed to trigger neuroplasticity, and thirst for new knowledge/skill)
The whole flow thing can be confusing because there are popular channels like Rian Doris who tout its benefits. He even suggested in one video not to get up and get sunlight because that is the best time to be in a flow state.
I’ve trained golfers for 26+years using ALL deliberate practice, with specificity of movements, like musicians. Traditional lessons lack specificity and rely on abstract “flow”. I can assure you deliberate practice is the key. It is almost unheard of in sports because they attempt to learn while already moving at full speed!! It never works. Neurons hardwire more efficiently at a fast speed, which is a huge drawback for golfers! I know by first hand experience deliberate practice with specific movements is the key for sports. Only problem is, you got to get rid of all the subjective opinions that dominate instruction of mechanics of the sport. Most Sports instructor do not teach objective science based fundamentals but rather mere subjective opinions about what a coach “thinks” they see or feel.
Sounds like there may need to be some clarification of terms. From what I understand, flow is a condition where our subconscious mind is more in control than our conscious mind, and if this is what we're talking about, then flow is most definitely one of the best learning states because this is the situation when we learn to walk, talk, and understand language. In the situation of a musician working to speed up their playing, it's a process of pushing yourself to get the mechanics of the piece into the subconscious "body memory" and out of the slower conscious mind. The same happens when we learn to touch type and speed up our performance there as well. If you feel you have to be consciously involved with every keystroke, you slow down your progress. From what I'm hearing here, flow is being defined as "easy effort" rather than subconscious activity.
Improvement requires deep work, art and poetry all the subtler level of existence, requires something close to a flow. Some call it pure Presence. And there are many levels of Presence. Flow is a type of Presence during a skilled practice. BUt pure Presence requires no practice, just sitting and breathing. Artists are not doing sport, they are doing art. After the craft has been mastered the artist simply produces the work in their own state of presence. Some called it flow, to recognize that state.
Yes, I mean… I was thinking about Ayrton Senna’s famous “lap of the gods” and 1990 Monaco GP, which your friend Peter Attia most certainly can walk you through, and I think he would coincide that in that particular moment something beyond deep focus was going on. Of course Ayrton had a high level of mastery in his sport and many many hours of practice so… I guess you’re ot very much in the camp of Steven Kotler, I think you haven’t ever mentioned him, big flow advocate… It would be interesting that you have a conversation with him sort of in a Lex Friedman style and see how much you contrast with his approach. Cheers!
Surprised he didn't mention Steven Kotler or the hot, new face Rian Doris. My guess is that Newport enters flow often times without knowing. Consider having the Flow Collective guys....
I sense a bit of reluctance towards the concept of flow from Cal Newport, I’m not saying that he’s wrong. But it seems like he’s pushing the agenda of the Deep Work Framework here quite a bit. I’ve experimented with both, both have extreme benefits in different contexts. And yes they both might be mixed and matched at certain points..
I usually love these clips especially regarding the topic of motivation, focus etc. This said, this particular video was strange. They said a lot of nothing aka “flow flow flow” the entire video until it was over. A bunch of repetitive words without anything truly worthwhile
I suggest you to watch it after geting a good rest. Points are well-delivered, everytime they mention 'flow' it always come with a context. But, it surely quite challenging to understand (or maybe because im just dumb) and need extra focus.
@@kelvinmontage9001 they explained neither nor gave details or tips, so just throwing around a term in a video without any explanation, example or details is a waste of time. This video was useless - without any less respect for Huberman but it makes no sense cutting up clips that aren’t of any value
these aren't your high school teachers; they're two scientists delving into a complex subject. It's absolutely okay if you don't grasp it immediately. But it's also not their fault if it's challenging to understand.
The grind he's talking about, when you push yourself relentlessly to get better and better, is what allows you to have a flow state.
First you grind to to the maximum of your time and ability. This takes many years. Then, when you feel you are good enough, you can easily enter a flow state, where muscle memory takes over and you stop thinking and just do.
First grind then flow.
exactly . perfect explanation of what happens in real world.
you just decoded life
Very nicely worded
It sounds like these two gentlemen are disagreeing with Mihaly, but Mihaly outlines this in his framework. "Flow" is not the state where you learn the most, but rather the state of "Arousal" is where you learn the most. This is where your skills are being challenged because they're not up to par. You're in a state of discomfort.
It sounds like neither of them have dug deeply into the "Flow" book nor Mihalyi's research because the late Csikszentmihalyi would agree with them. If you want to get better at something, "flow" is NOT where you want to be. Flow is where your skill level is up to par with the challenge. The discomfort from challenging yourself comes in the "Arousal" state because you're vexed.
What do you mean by "vexed"? thank you for the comment! you got me more interested about the topic.
Focus for practice and flow during performance. I found these out without science but by meditation and life experience. I assert immense energy and focus on what I need to learn but when it comes to doing what I learnt, I never perpetuate thinking or rationalizing what I am doing. Rationalizing breeds polarities of ideas, positive and negative which may hinder performance however is great when practicing prior to a performance - since failing in practice requires one to think both negative and positive aspects to actually grow and progress in whatever they practice. Flow is a crucial state also, It is like a fighter that trains with intense concentration and discomfort, but once he enters the ring, his concentration is not required, his attention may be directed to the noisy crowd hence breeding distractions to performance. However, in flow (a meditative state) he can let his instincts take over. However there are exceptions, you have to think inbetween of flow states to keep your self sailing towards the right course, flow is great for performance but concentration is key for direction. I dont believe we need science to tell us these. Any human that pays attention to their own functions can realize and train these aspects of themselves without words like flow and so on.
Lots of nuance . We are all learning together on this journey called life . The journey is the destination. Be here now ❤
By YouSum Live
00:00:07 Professional musicians focus on deliberate practice, not comfort.
00:00:30 Deliberate practice involves pushing past comfort zones.
00:03:00 Neuroplasticity requires discomfort to trigger learning.
00:06:23 Deep work necessitates intense concentration, not flow.
00:06:48 Deliberate practice and flow are distinct for skill development.
00:07:27 Flow is more about performance than skill improvement.
00:07:54 Virtuosity may involve surprising elements during performance.
By YouSum Live
tldw: in order to improve you need deliberate practice. deliberate practice is hard. deliberate practice is not flow. flow does not fit into Newport's deep work framework.
What does tldw mean?😅
@@soulitude814to long didn’t watch
He doesnt havd the attention span @soulitude814
To enter a flow state, a high degree of familiarity with the task is essential. The brain must be able to switch to autopilot, much like when driving a car or playing a musical instrument. In this state, actions become automatic, and the mind disengages from conscious thought, allowing for a seamless and effortless performance. Flow is rooted in non-thinking, where focus and skill align perfectly, enabling a person to fully immerse in the activity without distractions.
My takeaways:
There can't be flow in learning or practicing. Practicing is done by focusing and in uncomfortable state of mind. Then flow is achieved in the work where we are applying our learnings.
good enough. i wish they addressed practicing/learning towards a state of flow about learning (like perfecting a strategy, around discipline, reframing that stress that's supposed to trigger neuroplasticity, and thirst for new knowledge/skill)
I think both are useful when learning, it's not as simple as it seems
Thank you Andrew!
The whole flow thing can be confusing because there are popular channels like Rian Doris who tout its benefits. He even suggested in one video not to get up and get sunlight because that is the best time to be in a flow state.
I’ve trained golfers for 26+years using ALL deliberate practice, with specificity of movements, like musicians. Traditional lessons lack specificity and rely on abstract “flow”. I can assure you deliberate practice is the key. It is almost unheard of in sports because they attempt to learn while already moving at full speed!! It never works. Neurons hardwire more efficiently at a fast speed, which is a huge drawback for golfers! I know by first hand experience deliberate practice with specific movements is the key for sports. Only problem is, you got to get rid of all the subjective opinions that dominate instruction of mechanics of the sport. Most Sports instructor do not teach objective science based fundamentals but rather mere subjective opinions about what a coach “thinks” they see or feel.
Pls do one podcast for students
Sounds like there may need to be some clarification of terms. From what I understand, flow is a condition where our subconscious mind is more in control than our conscious mind, and if this is what we're talking about, then flow is most definitely one of the best learning states because this is the situation when we learn to walk, talk, and understand language. In the situation of a musician working to speed up their playing, it's a process of pushing yourself to get the mechanics of the piece into the subconscious "body memory" and out of the slower conscious mind. The same happens when we learn to touch type and speed up our performance there as well. If you feel you have to be consciously involved with every keystroke, you slow down your progress. From what I'm hearing here, flow is being defined as "easy effort" rather than subconscious activity.
I agree! Cal is being a bit confusing here
Improvement requires deep work, art and poetry all the subtler level of existence, requires something close to a flow. Some call it pure Presence. And there are many levels of Presence. Flow is a type of Presence during a skilled practice. BUt pure Presence requires no practice, just sitting and breathing.
Artists are not doing sport, they are doing art. After the craft has been mastered the artist simply produces the work in their own state of presence. Some called it flow, to recognize that state.
I love this man
He’s kinda a hack who should have stuck to computing
great one
Is this not visualization on top of the physical practice ?
Yes, I mean… I was thinking about Ayrton Senna’s famous “lap of the gods” and 1990 Monaco GP, which your friend Peter Attia most certainly can walk you through, and I think he would coincide that in that particular moment something beyond deep focus was going on. Of course Ayrton had a high level of mastery in his sport and many many hours of practice so… I guess you’re ot very much in the camp of Steven Kotler, I think you haven’t ever mentioned him, big flow advocate… It would be interesting that you have a conversation with him sort of in a Lex Friedman style and see how much you contrast with his approach. Cheers!
Surprised he didn't mention Steven Kotler or the hot, new face Rian Doris. My guess is that Newport enters flow often times without knowing. Consider having the Flow Collective guys....
I wish they read this comment because you’re so right!
Kotler’s kinda a hack tho. He launched a company that is super aggressive about getting others on TED Talks and writing books for money.
Please have steven kotler and rian doris on here!!!
In summary, to be good at something, you have to do that thing a lot of times (deliberate practice)
I sense a bit of reluctance towards the concept of flow from Cal Newport, I’m not saying that he’s wrong. But it seems like he’s pushing the agenda of the Deep Work Framework here quite a bit. I’ve experimented with both, both have extreme benefits in different contexts. And yes they both might be mixed and matched at certain points..
Perspective is important . Thank you
I usually love these clips especially regarding the topic of motivation, focus etc. This said, this particular video was strange. They said a lot of nothing aka “flow flow flow” the entire video until it was over. A bunch of repetitive words without anything truly worthwhile
if u pay attention, they were discrediting the whole hype about flow and saying deliberate practice is more pivotal and isn't FLOW.
I suggest you to watch it after geting a good rest. Points are well-delivered, everytime they mention 'flow' it always come with a context.
But, it surely quite challenging to understand (or maybe because im just dumb) and need extra focus.
@@kelvinmontage9001 they explained neither nor gave details or tips, so just throwing around a term in a video without any explanation, example or details is a waste of time. This video was useless - without any less respect for Huberman but it makes no sense cutting up clips that aren’t of any value
these aren't your high school teachers; they're two scientists delving into a complex subject. It's absolutely okay if you don't grasp it immediately. But it's also not their fault if it's challenging to understand.
@@bintangriksa9121 I suggest you type your comment again - this time minus all the spelling mistakes.
I know Harry Mack be watching this
Take my engagement
You're awesome