Top Down thinking uses a lot of background/past experience to inform decisions. So an Neurotypical person entering a restruant has "restaurant" running in their head and a new restaurant is "close enough" to this pattern to not cause any anxiety or stress. An Autistic person upon entering a new restaurant will look is it counter service? Wait staff? Seat yourself? Wait for seating? Where are the restrooms? Boots or tables? Perhaps were are the speakers so I can sit away from them. All of this is processing before we can talk, look at a menu, etc. At least this is my current understanding of the different types of thinking.
Janicas, I think the top down thinking must be more like gut instinct. One author describes it as "fast thinking"" rather than analysis. I've told my therapist that when I'm overwhelmed, stuck, and don't know where to start on an issue, I build a spreadsheet. It could be planning which college to transfer to and which classes and majors to choose, it could be planning a time/activity with my kids, it could be handling relationships in a proactive (rather than passive or reactionary) way... I'll start building a spreadsheet until I can see the patterns I need to make the right decisions. I suspect NTs don't default to spreadsheet building to tackle life/adulting issues. ;-)
@@i.am.mindblind As an allistic person I can say that (we? Or at least people like myself) also think about the things you have mentioned an autistic person would. It just doesn't override the desire to go into the restaurant as you can find out the unknown variables by asking questions, or going off the experience as you encounter it, instead of trying to account for and computate all the unknown variables (an impossible task). I understand why autistic people need this certainty though, to reduce potential anxiety and stress; it's just not a factor which is enough to override will/motivation if it exists for that thing amongst many allistics and there are fewer sensory issues which could act as extra inhibitors. I suppose to autistic people with extra challenges regarding communicating with/approaching people and then articulating queries might inhibit the bypass that allistic people would have before a menu has even been looked at.
@@bryonyvaughn2427 I relate so hard to this! I don’t do physical spreadsheets, but I do something similar in my head. It’s like connect the dots to show me the pattern. Big life choices, I do brainstorming on paper for sure. And I am also very proactive in figuring out relationships. Meaning I think hard and deliberately on how to approach them.
I'm autistic, and this type of thinking is pretty typical of me in some situations. HOWEVER, I tutor a high school math and physics student with autism, and I've seen this type of thinking on display again and again. He has to approach problems from a very foundational level, examining and piecing together every detail of a problem, and build a solution from that. He doesn't think like, "this is a forces question, so I have to split this into components...", but like "I have an object here; there's a push applied to it; it makes the object move; the object was at rest, so its velocity changed; that means it accelerated; if there's acceleration, there's force, so the push was a force; the force has components" it can turn even simple problems into long discourses and projects. I thought I was just bad at trying to foster that type of thinking in him, but maybe he just comes like that.
Yep, different autistic people will take this bottom up processing to different levels. As someone who high masks I can sometimes skip steps (I've been trained to overlook stuff) , my son though has to work through every single step of a situation/problem.
I find choosing something from a menu immensely stressful; sometimes, I feel I am going to burst into tears because it feels like too much pressure. I take so much longer than everyone else to try to decide, and even though I REALLY try to decide between the choices on the menu, it is too much information and I feel overwhelmed by the information, because I have difficulties with processing inflation and remembering what I read and keeping it in my head long enough to make any decisions. So despite REALLY trying to choose something different, I almost always choice the same thing as always.
Yes!! And if I'm with people they get impatient. I have to ask the waiter for more time repeatedly. And I end up getting the usual. I really have to Make an effort to try a new menu item, or even worse a brand new (to me) restaurant, especially if it's strange and different food I'm not used to
@@recoveringsoul755 people's impatience with me can be more painful and damaging to me, than the embarrassment of being so slow at trying to decide. Because of these reactions from people, I have become fearful of others, because their reactions create in me such intense pain and suffering.
@@donnanewby3386 ask them what they are getting, what they like, maybe tell them you want pasta or chicken or whatever you feel like and ask them to help you. Then they'll be reading the menu too. And 2 heads are better than one, plus it lowers the pressure
Me too! So that could be a sign of autism? I am almost 37 years old and never have thought I could be autistic, but then started suspecting if my children are really neurotypical and now RUclips recommended me this channel and I recognize myself of so many things.
Very relatable. Restaurant menus are annoying for anyone with me. I have to read every item. I wish they were all picture menus. It's easier with pictures. If it's all words I have to read it and try to imagine what it might look like or taste like. Which would be impossible for you, right, with aphantasia? Sometimes I've just ordered stuff that I see being delivered to someone else's table because it looks good or smells good.
Funny you should say that because yes, sometimes I've read a menu item and I can't picture it but I'm thinking it'll be similar to something I've seen before and they'll bring something out that isn't what I thought at all. Lol. I've definitely seen other people's orders and thought, oh that looks good! I should try it. 😁
@@i.am.mindblind I once tried to be brave and order a different steak than normal. They brought me raw meat. Which was apparently what I ordered. I just... couldn't. I apologized and sent it back. I told a friend I wanted to try something new, like calamari. He took me to a place that he thought had Good ones. I liked them. But at other places, if I hadn't had good one first, I would have hated them. I swear it's teeny tiny baby steps.
I agree about the pictures making it easier. Sometimes, restaurants make the meal sound posh, but I do not understand what the foods listed even are then. I am definitely more able with visual than language.
But with an only picture menu how would you know the ingredients?? How does a picture give you the ingredients inside a hamburger bun? Or what is inside that hunk of cheese? If you need to avoid X ingredient (and most likely multiple ingredients) a picture would not work...
As far as bottom-up thinking goes, I've always described the way I process things as a giant web. I think of one piece of the web and then another until I have this whole interconnected web or schema around the decision (almost like crocheting a lace doily but not quite so methodical or linear). Then I can step back and look at the whole web to start to make a decision and narrow it down. I didn't know there was a term for this! It's incredibly tiring but I honestly wouldn't have it any other way. I love the unique way I look at situations. It's helped me to be really good at process improvement at work.
OMG, I HATE last minute changes. That can throw me off and just leave me in such a state. Restaurants: I like to look at the menu ahead of time online, because I hate making everyone wait while I dissect all the details. 2 big problems though: 1) when the restaurant has a new menu they haven't changed to online, and the food you chose is not available anymore. 2) when you are all set and the group/family changes the restaurant at the last minute (or you get there and they are closed on Mondays, so you have to go somewhere else). This can throw me into 'stuck' mode, where my brain literally becomes stuck and cannot think or process anything. And my wife is like, "Just pick something," and it's never that easy. It doesn't help that I have food sensory issues. And then I feel the pressure to have to pick 'something'. This is one reason I almost always order the same food at familiar restaurants. It's easy to do and it's something that I know I will like. My wife knows that if a restaurant serves breakfast (especially 24/7), that I will almost always get breakfast. I eat breakfast at home at anytime too. I'm very much into familiar foods, partly because when I like something, I really, really like it. Why would I eat something I kind of like instead of totally love? This is one reason I don't like parties or family gatherings, because I usually can't, or won't eat 95% of the food. It can be a challenge for me. People who don't experience this will NOT ever understand it. A note on sensory food issues: while I might not like a food in one manner, I might actually enjoy it in another. Things I don't texturally like, if they are changed, like ground up/powdered/or something to change the texture, or cooked as part of something else, I will often eat.
Oh yes! One year on my birthday I was all set to go to a Chinese restaurant but they were closed on the day we went and I wasn't expecting it. Like you said my brain just froze and I had hungry kids and I couldn't pick a new place. Thankfully my husband picked for me but it was such a frustrating situation. Or like you said there is one place I always get the chicken sandwich. Well they changed their menu and took off the sandwich. I was completely stuck and didn't know what to order because my brain was stuck on the sandwich that no longer was a choice!
I have the same difficulties. Menus throw me completely... information and choice everywhere, and I am unable to process it and cross-compare them, process and remember what i have just read long enough to make a choice. My processing speed and ability to keep things in my head is GREATLY impacted. Other people make their codes, but I feel pressurised from the moment I get the menu to make a choice quickly (even feel stressed at the idea of going to a restaurant because I know I will have to make a decision). I do not think quickly, and struggle with decision making, and am aware others are waiting. Even though I REALLY try to make a decision to eat something different to before, I find that I just cannot, and after much thinking (to the point that I feel my head is going to pop out), I end up choosing the same thing I always do.
I know, plans made, and unexpected changes. Oh my poor head (well, it's actually rich; hope that makes sense). When people make promises, and don't do what that say, umm. That's hard, I like b it when things are soft. I generally feel so much more comfortable. Around other people who, are considered neurodiverse; our extended family. Say if somebody put something. In one of my food cupboards. Not normally, where I keep it. I could be staring right at it, and I can't see anything. Is that mind blindness?
What you are describing with not seeing something right in front of you is common with ADHD. (maybe autism too? There is a lot of overlap) But basically ADHD brains will delete information it doesn't think is pertinent. Mindblindness is usually referred to Aphantasia and not being able to visualize in your mind's eye.
At work, we all had to complete an online course. It stated it would take 0.3 hours. My boss completed it in 16 mins, I took almost 2 hours because I had to read everything! He is able to skim but I can’t miss any details. But I understand now, because of your video. Thank You so much 😊
Yes, so common for many of us. Tests and forms can be so difficult! Often my ADHD side kicks in and I just can't process the questions. I either am all in and take forever or just gloss over cross my fingers and hope for the best.
I certainly enjoyed this video. I laughed suddenly knowing, hearing you share, relieving my confusion. You are a god send to us who are neurodivergent. I had a head injury at 44 yrs old. I have struggled to survive and hide what I am but YOU have made me realize that I am far from alone. I am proud to be included in your group. 71 yrs old smiling again. Bless your heart.
I am not an autist, but I do not like to take decisions without having the whole picture. So, my favourite approach is making spreadsheets where I can continously add, classify and measure data on the decision topic.
Spreadsheets are a favorite tool with many Autistic people. But yes, all Autistic traits are human traits. They become Autism when they become sufficient in number and detrimental to daily life. 😊
I'm so happy to have found your channel! The confusion, shame, and low self-esteem that I've found comes with living with autism can get so intense, and hearing other adults talk about these experiences is so, so refreshing!
Story of my life 😊 I spent 2 months at least 6 hours per day surfing the web looking for a second hand motorbike, screenshots, endless comparisons etc. then I ended up buying a brand new one because I couldn't decide which one to buy and it made me crazy.
This is so relatable! I used to call it "zooming in/out" because of the big picture vs details thing, and because it highly depends of the type of result I want to arrive: is this to apply or to analyze? micro vs macro. I found this: Bottom-up and top-down processing are two different ways of making sense of stimuli. In bottom-up processing, we allow the stimulus itself to shape our perception, without any preconceived ideas. In top-down processing, we use our background knowledge and expectations to interpret what we see. I believe the important distinction is the notion of *preconceived ideas*. NT learn by social osmosis and dynamics that look like follow-the-leader, they'll go to the restaurant that the leader has approved (according to them, their social leader has "already checked" for safety). They don't need to check twice. To them makes no sense. They trust the leader's decision making skills, trading compliance for safety. But us, specially if defiant, will try to test for everything, because logically that situation is completely new. It looks like something familiar but we know it's not. So we run the usual scans according to our needs again, because the physical place itself was probably built to help NT make sense of stimuli and not ND folk. That's an example of something physical but I think I happens at all levels. I'm new to your channel, love your videos!! :)
Bingo, nice to have someone speaking to this! Long before I was aware of my autism, I knew I had slow processing but never really understood all the pieces or connected the dots. Many decisions, because of all that goes into it, are very difficult. I would add everything that requires me to consider multiple details is hard. Things I actually could/should enjoy, like writing, gardening and meal preparation, I don't enjoy because I'm overwhelmed by the details, by having too many moving pieces. So it is really hard to even maintain interest in any hobby or pursuit. I do really enjoy thinking about interests and ideas but being stuck in the conceptual (and really a lack of others to engage with) I will eventually consider things to death and just lose the interest. Now that I've gotten older, I desperately seek things to apply my mind toward. But I feel like an explorer with no more places to explore.
I process everything the same way. One of my autistic "special interests" relates to cars. One day I am standing at the auto parts store looking at the oil filters and asked myself why I am buying a particular brand. So, I bought all of them that would fit my car and cut them open. Then I ordered oil filters that were not at that store to add to the comparison. Short version of this story is after I compared all of the technical details, I could make a decision. Then my brail flipped to oil. So I have to get all of product data sheets for every brand to compare their specs. Then I got in to used analysis of all these same brands and captured all of that data in a spreadsheet. Once I educated myself on all of the data points, I could then make a decision based on our use cases. All of that took many months to compile and it was super fun for me. I do this with EVERYTHING.
Yes, I have definitely noticed my own process and it is very similar to yours. For example, when I was a classroom teacher and I had been allotted a small budget of discretionary money to spend, I also went through a very time-consuming and in-depth process of researching everything available before I could feel confident that I was spending the money in the best way. When I tried to analyze just what my process was, in the hope that I would eventually hit on “my way” and save time and energy, my metaphor for it was like a gelatin needing time to set in the fridge, or like a pot of soup needing time to come to a boil, or like a cold car engine needing time to warm up. I tried to explain to the parent of a student who I tutor in writing that her son’s process and mine seemed similar in the aspect that we both need to work through the trees to see the forest; that it’s a constant zooming in and then zooming back out, getting a feel for the overall big picture in this way. A professor gave my class several learning surveys in order to help us define our personal learning style. She said that I stood out in that I was apparently a global learner, as opposed to a predominantly left or right-brained learner. That was over thirty years ago and my conception of being global is that I take longer than the average bear to work through something but if I give it the full due, I can come up with a good product. Unfortunately, that means I’m terrible with meeting deadlines and it takes me quite a bit of hyper focus to reach “the zone.” I don’t have the issue with restaurant menus, btw. I appreciated this topic. I look forward to exploring other questions about our similar ways of processing. It’s one thing to read it in a book by an expert and another to hear someone who lives it. I’ve often been told that I “overthink” things and I know that I need a longer time than 99% of others to accomplish something more complex. I am currently very much enjoying the relative luxury of online tutoring at a ratio of no more than 3:1.
I don’t have the issue with menus because I don’t have any taste or sensory issues. Plus, I’m thinking that it may be an example of how I mask; in this case, subsuming my personal tastes to the collective by asking my friend what their favorite is and ordering that. I’ve got two sons with autism and they’ve been very selective in their food since age 2. One son has become more open to foods but for years, he didn’t go beyond chicken in one form or another, usually chicken strips or nuggets or wings. The other one has at least expanded to bean and cheese burritos in addition to grilled cheese sammies, Buffalo chicken nuggets, pepperoni pizza, and double cheeseburgers 😊
I recently heard someone mentioning that their ADHD makes them see the Big Picture (did not hear that before, not sure how common that is for ADHD). Also I'm often told/criticized for noticing tiny details. Questions like "are you a Big Picture thinker or detail thinker?" confuse me: my answer would be Big Picture + detail (ADHD + autism). Can't we just be bottom up and top down at the same time? Attention to detail in autism, I guess comes from knowing how every tiny thing can be a big problem for us, so we end up being perfectionist considering every aspect, just trying not to hurt ourselves (which at some point leads us to a burnout 😇)
Yes this is where I struggle to understand these concepts. I feel like I'm looking at the big picture when I take in all the details but I don't think that's what NTs are referring too. But it's hard to imagine another way of processing. Haha!
Also, sometimes I ‘can’t see the trees for the wood’ (as opposed to ‘can’t see the wood for the trees’) like in TK Maxx (I think you call it TJ Maxx in US). To me that place is like a jumble sale and I can only bear being in there for about 5 minutes before my brain goes swirly. There are just too many disparate items all different colours jumbled together and there is no way I can locate something I might be looking for or am interested in looking at. I can deal with clothes shops where things are hanging together in separate groups of similar things with space between sections.
I've just realised this is exactly the issue I'm having with finding a therapist. Every time I try, I find websites which just list hundreds of them, with hardly any detail about each (unless you go into each profile, and then it's just a load of text that may or may not mention relevant things in it, in an inconsistent way). I can't just pick one that seems like they might be ok, without going through them all and comparing etc. So it's just way too much, and I end up not doing anything. And that's been going on for years now too. The main reason I want to find a therapist is because I'm hoping it might help some cognitive/memory issues that have been going on for years now (and getting worse, to the point where I almost can't do anything useful now), one of which is actually that I can't hold large amounts of information in my head and process them like I used to (it's like my working memory capacity has got much smaller)
Yes, when I was searching for a therapist I got so overwhelmed with the process. I started with a list of therapists on my insurance list. That helped narrow it down. Then I removed any with religion on their website because I'm secular and while I don't care if my therapist is religious, I didn't want one that uses religion in their practice. (Some people seek out religious Therapists.) Then it was just finding someone with availablity and I got lucky. Good luck, sometimes it takes a while. My son has gone through four therapists already this year while we are looking for a good fit.
Yes! I’ve realized that choosing food from a menu is very difficult for me as well! Too many choices…and then the deep evaluation of whether I’m making the “right choice” for the situation, especially if other people are eating with me and they are making decisions! My difficulty became very apparent to both me and my husband after I had a meltdown in a restaurant after I was expected to order after just a few minutes of looking at the menu. But, through that difficult experience and following conversation, I learned that it’s not only okay for me but best for me to ask for 5 minutes. If I can’t decide what to order after that, I’ll just ask my husband to order for me as he’s really good at doing that and knows what I would like. I’m a teacher and also find that I use bottom-up thinking when lesson planning. While I have the goals and outcomes in my mind, I usually have to write out the performance/evaluation and practice/activities parts out first and only after I solidify that, then I can finally write my goals and outcomes.
My husband is often better at ordering for me than I am too. I tend to let adhd side go crazy in a restaurant and order something complicated when simple usually is better.
So I knew my family were mostly autistic, plus one ADHD and one probably-autistic-but-definitely-ND, but I honestly didn't know big decisions like this weren't so difficult and excruciating for everyone 🤯 a new *anything* takes weeks of research if it's desperate, or months to years if it's less urgent. You're telling me the rest of the world gets to play these quests on easy mode?! So unfair.
Lol, maybe not easy mode but definitely a different processing that tends to go faster somehow. To give some comfort it's been shown that while NT people can arrive at a decision faster, Autistic people show less regrets after making a decision or if it's solving a problem have statistically less errors.
I'm partially mind-blind. I see in my mind, but the images are fleeting. In school, I did pretty well because I had an excellent verbal sound memory. But I flunked organic chemistry 4 times and had to change my major from biology because visuals of molecules are important. Visual basic? I didn't realize most people can visualize until five years ago. Your hair is so pretty!
I usually plan out intricate vacations, spending WAYYYYY TOOOOO much time on each detail in order to "maximize" each day. While time-consuming, this "bottom-up" approach has lead to some fantastic trips. This past year, I've been feeling burned out. Every time I started planning a trip, I'd get so overloaded and stressed that I'd completely give up. This went on for a year. One day, a really great flight-deal presented itself and I decided to buy the tickets. It was a few months out, so I figured I'd have time to plan. HA. Even though I knew the general area of the trip, I was still unable to plan. As the trip grew closer, my anxiety increased and the planning went unplanned. By the time we made it to the airport for our trip, I had 5 of 15 hotel nights reserved. We often didn't even know where we were staying the next night, and being too tired to research, it forced me to "just pick." I'm not going to lie, there were some tears of frustration trying to figure out our next stop. However, the trip itself was still amazing! I am sure I will still struggle with vacation planning in the future. I am sure I will slip into that "analysis paralysis" mode, and struggle to get out. However, in the back of my mind, I now know the following: (1) My way of "bottom up" thinking can be an asset to vacation planning, but it is not necessary for an enjoyable trip. (2) If I am in need of a vacation, but feeling too burnt out to plan.....just buy the ticket. This places a time-limit on my analysis while still ensuring I will get to go on vacation. I hope you book that trip soon. Remember, it doesn't need to be the "optimal" cruise line. Maybe pick the one that offers Dark Coco for breakfast.
I love this! Yes, often I get so overwhelmed with choices I just PICK (seemingly blindly at that point.) I haven't done it with something big. I think I could do that vacation approach with just my husband and I but with my two autistic kids too, that would be just impossible I feel. 😂😁
I have been on one cruise and I enjoyed it. In fact I booked a couple more. That being said, the ship can be crowded and noisy, especially on sea days. Be prepared for a bit of sensory overload. There are many RUclips channels that can give you good advice for packing, etc.
I did a cruise about 10/11 years ago. I didn't get off the boat to do any of the excursions and those days were my favorite because the boat would be so much more empty! Lol.
I got my colon into a massive spasm from doing too much research just to replace four tyres on my car. I was in so much pain just this morning. So the added anxiety of buying the right tire to vehicle manufacturers specification, I had to look at too many things I’m many would overlook. Finally ordered the tires.
I have extreme chronic pain and because I don't wear grimace on my face my doctor is not convinced of how hard it has been for me. And as far as going out to eat so like get an idea of what I want before I go because the pressure of making a decision fast irks me. And I can also relate to the last minute changes. I experienced a meltdown privately when I thought I would hang out with my friend yesterday but he wasn't back in town to hang out. I went on a long walk around town,got lost and ended being really sore and sad the rest of the evening. Luckily I have my coping mechanism of drawing and writing poetry. Thank you for helping me to feel like I am not alone. By the way my therapist told me just this year that I have ASD and to find a psychologist to give me a diagnosis. Thank you for all that you do ❤❤❤❤
I'm autistic and ADHD. Sometimes I'm able to just go with the flow based on how I'm feeling in that moment. I'm not overwhelmed by menus in restaurants and am a sensory seeker. I've also lived overseas for years, so my point of view is...if it's not expensive, I'll try anything at least once! Then there are the big things and so much research goes into those things. I need to know every little thing. I sympathized with the family travel situation, because for me, just being one person, I will sometimes book the plane tickets / hotels and then figure everything else out when I get there, but as one person I have the freedom and flexibility to do what works best for me, and if it's a safe country / place, a lot of times I do the research as I go or think about what I feel like doing on a particular day. Doing my Masters right now. The list of resources for my research poster is absolutely insane, but it started with being tasked to understand the neurology / brains of English language learners, and English language learners with learning disabilities, but then I couldn't just stop there, I had to understand EVERYTHING to get a whole picture - getting into all of the little details about what might be going on, and then how to help.
I have so many things to tell you about that idk where to start; first it is been very difficult to find someone to get a diagnosis for me (no many places do adults around here may seems, and then the waiting time) and that is giving me a lot of anxiety because as a possible autistic person I need confirmation (self diagnosis is not enough for me, idk if that also happens to you but I do need an official confirmation). Since this realization I have been struggling really bad with my mood swings and Idk why! Also I was talking to my therapist about you and SDAM and how sound like a could have it too, and she came with something very interesting: talking about how I don’t have vivid memories of any of my vacations trips (since I was a child) my brain maybe gets sensory overload during those periods and I dissociate myself making my brain kind shut down so I only have this memories on 3rd person (I almost can see myself in a scene but not on 1st person) I thought it made so much sense because every time I have been on vacation as an adult I always feel like in a dream.
Interesting. I have Aphantasia so no visuals for me, memory or present day. When I think back to a vacation memory I have a list of things we did. Like when I went to Hawaii in 2019 before the pandemic. I only know the date because it was just before the pandemic. I know we spent most of our days on the beach, we ate at some food carts and went to a luau. I can maybe come up with a few other facts about what we did but I don't remember the experience as an memory full of emotions or details.
I think I just realized why I like going on cruises and places like Disneyland for vacations. It's because it takes a lot less detail planning on my part because everything you're expected to do/go is built in. I've attempted planning a trip to Hawaii a couple of times, but I get stuck researching all of the islands.
Yes! One of my favorite vacations ever was a cruise, because everything is just all planned. But I didn't plan/book the cruise. I'm stuck on how to navigate that part. Lol.
I also like to check out the menu ahead of time to narrow down my choices. I'm not sure if this relates exactly to top-down vs bottom-up thinking but I find that I really need to know how information fits into the larger whole (the pattern). So in the workplace I need to know more than just my little part of the process- I need to know what happens before, after, why things are done a certain way, etc. It makes me very good at customer service because I have both details and the global understanding!
Yes, it's why a lot of Autistic people can't do a task unless they know why it's being done. Without the info the brain can't continue forward. Many bosses don't like this and want workers just to focus on their task but it makes things harder for an Autistic person.
At first I thought that I don't do this (bottom up thinking). Then I realized that although i don't do it as systematically, i still do. Buying a car is a good example. For years, I thought about what kind of car I wanted before i was able to figure it out. But i ended up getting the perfect car for me and im so pleased with it. Travel plans are the worst. Even just going to see family (they live in another country) has so many options. It's exhausting
I would have no idea how to/ where to start/ any clue whatsoever planning a holiday/trip/vacation. I have only ever been with my family as a child and I’m now 54. The idea of going away and the travel aspect is so stress inducing I can’t imagine it would be enjoyable. I have tried to go on a trip twice with a couple of groups I was involved in and all I had to do was basically turn up at the place I was being picked up from but both times I ended up going home the next day because it was too distressing being away from home with people I didn’t know very well.
Decision paralysis! Oh my gosh, this resonates. Recently 'updated' our car for a newer model, months of research and I got the newer model of our old car. 😂 Every holiday I plan takes forever. Most of the previous ones I've planned have been lovely but the family are relying on me to book the trip. This takes an age and lots of options are assessed, then re-assessed. I absolutely won't commit or can't commit until its almost time to go on vacaton. We have another break in a few weeks. The stress is building and some days it's too overwhelming to start looking. Then I think. It's just a holiday, just book it already but nope, doesn't happen. Im addition, in a restaurant, I'd really love to order silence and a pause on time while I'll review the menu and all possible options. I'd also love more photos of the food, that would speed things up. That and less choices! Honestly, when having 'down time' our sensory processing is in overdrive!
In the last year, a friend of mine told me about scripting and bottom-up thinking and both have changed my freaking life. The process of incorporating those understandings with unmasking is very slow as I can only really change so much at a time. Right now I’m also trying to job search as my current job is not a good fit for me in the ways mentioned or financially. But ohhh am I overwhelmed even thinking about what new job I could possibly do let alone how to start searching and thus working through options 😅
You got it spot on about the menu, at least how it is for me. The funneling you describe, needing to see the menu ahead of time and the trouble you mention trying to read the menu at the restaurant, which is worse if you feel pressure not to take forever on it. Last time I went out I was prepared but instead didn't go as expected. I had said I didn't need a menu, I already know what I want to order, so it was taken away but then but instead of asking me the question I was prepared for (what would you like to order), I asked which of the 2 specials (it was worded as do I want the___ or the ____) they have up on the board. This made me immediately confused on top of throwing me off on what I was prepared to be asked & what my answer would be (racing thoughts to process kicked in). Also, one of the 2 specials was an item I had went back and forth on just before heading to the place so this added even more to what all was suddenly taxing my brain. A list of different things, questions and statements, all came to mind at once with each feeling equally urgent to get out my mouth right away. I didn't know how to answer and since I felt an internal panic kick in that was just going to quickly get severe, I just picked one of those 2 things without thought to it by saying give me ____ and then contemplated my choice and the unexpected question while I waited on my food. It wasn't until after I left and some time passed that I was able to realize that what likely happened was they didn't think that I had maybe seen the menu before I came, they knew I was a new customer since I said going in I had never been there before and so I guess they thought when I said I knew what I wanted that I must have picked one of those specials on the big chalk board.
This sounds an awful lot like me. I get lost in all the details and get totally overwhelmed to the point where I do nothing. I've gotten to the point over the decades where I start out doing nothing rather that try to figure out what to do. I often forget the options or recommendations of other people because my memory is so bad. I tend to mask by showing so much indifference that other people will make the decision. I have to say though that sometimes my ADHD takes over and I'll decide something with no fore thought at all. It usually ends badly. When it comes to ordering at a restaurant, I can get overwhelmed if the menu is complex with too many options. I've worked up several strategies to help. I can't go into them all, but I live in Houston and there are a ton of ethnic restaurants of all kinds. I've come to know particular dishes for each ethnicity. In that case I just scan the menu for the items I know and pick one of those. If I go to the same restaurant multiple times I can branch out form there. Other times I do what I call 'panic ordering'. Which is to say that I don't make any decision at all until I'm asked by the waitstaff. At that point I usually pick the safest and usually most unhealthy option. Something like a burger and fries.
This is a great summary of my experience. I hate when ADHD makes a panic decision. And yep, often times I'll scan the menu for say Pad Thai at Thai. But that disappoints me because I actually DO like to try new foods. Also, I grew up in Houston and OMG I miss all the good restraunts! 😭 Portland has a lot, but many are foodie and not necessarily good, just trendy. And because of anxiety I don't like driving into Portland, so I stay on my side of the river in Vancouver, Wa. My favorite restaurant in Houston is called Bayou City Seafood & Pasta. They had a crawfish ettoufe that was amazing! 😍
Hi Amanda! I just wanted to comment for the algorithm, so I will say that I think your curls are so beautiful! Thanks for your content, and take care. ❤
Thank you so much for this video and the follow up one! This is exactly what I've been wanting to explain about myself. I've been learning about autism for a while and some things I relate to so much and others not so much. But this! It takes me so long to make decisions, often even relatively simple ones. I get so frustrated with myself that I can't just decide. I've gotten better with deciding at restaurants, especially since I discovered that I have a dairy sensitivity so that severely limits the options. But planning vacations! My husband plans our vacations because if it were up to me it wouldn't happen. I get so overwhelmed that I can't make a decision. Plus, I don't love traveling. I once told a friend who worked for an airline helping people with flight reservations and she was surprised and told me she had never heard of a husband doing the trip planning instead of the wife! That made me wonder how weird I am. Anyway... Some other ways this comes up-- when I go shopping, especially for clothes, I feel the need to look at every option in the whole store before I can make a decision and then I get so overwhelmed and struggle to decide. I often end up buying more than I want or need because I can't narrow it down. Or I don't buy anything because I can't decide. Sometimes I spend half an hour (not that I really know how long, it just feels like forever and I notice a lot of other people coming and going in the mean time) standing there (or circling around the nearby aisles so I don't seem quite as conspicuous) trying to make up my mind which (fill in the blank) I should buy. 😵💫😬 Also, just deciding what to do every day and when and what to make for dinner... I'm a stay at home mom so I don't have a lot of external structure and this is such a struggle. I've tried to follow a routine so there are less decisions but I can't seem to stick with one. Does this seem like autism? I'm just wondering if others who have been diagnosed have a similar experience and if that is unique to autism. Anyway, thank you again for sharing!
Your examples do seem like bottom up processing. But you'll need to do more research, take online tests and keep watching variety of content creators to discover if your Autistic. Follow up with a clinical evaluation if it's accessible and you feel like it'd be beneficial.
Yes! A diagnosis was and is everything. I resonate so well with what you said about melting down and not understanding why and then shaming myself. It helps SO much to understand why and what steps I can take to take care of myself.
I do the same thing when I'm making a purchase of something in going to use a lot, mostly tech stuff, laptop, camera, cell phone.... Research research research. 😅
i feel like there is a link between asking questions and bottum up thinking. in class or social situations i dont have like an answer straight away because there are still so many options to go trough before i can answer the person. at tests at school i was like where is the rest of the info? do i need to write something based of so little ? what do they want me to say? again there where in my mind 10 answers possible so hard to choose which one to write down (crossing my fingers it would be te right one so i would get points for it) kinda like you're Iceland school story.
My whife usually tells me that: Oh there is that situation with this thing so we should do that, but if those conditions are present we should instead do this. By the way when all this happens I need to get the car to that place, I will be there for 30 minutes, but if it lasts for 50 minutes you first have to go there and bring that thing. But if you can't fint this person there you shoud call this person. And if this other thing happens you should go that place instead. What do you think?... ... And I'am just like: "I just started to process the first condition and I'm half way figuring out all the outcomes of that one situation..." My brain is completly go offline from all the stimulation and I just say: Whatever... Please just tell me what to do. Damn Autism... :P
If I am understanding the similarity of thinking. I don't look at things as black and white. I look it as the gray areas too. When I have to process the information it takes me a while to get to the point of being able to even attempt to talk about it. It's very frustrating for the neurotypical people in my life as they can't look at things the same way I can, they get frustrated, mad, or they just stop listening all together.
I went to an ice cream place, so many flavors and I’ve never been there before and the flavors have weird names so you don’t know what in them until you try it, I try sooo many flavors and kept staring to choose, my whole family had already picked, and I just stood there staring processing ok what is this, do I like it, but do I want it right now, literally like forever goes by and I end up picking my basic mint chocolate chip, because I didn’t want to be upset and I know I love it and everything was so overwhelming. Would you consider that bottom up thinking?
When at a grocery store, I generally know what I want before I leave the house. However, I occasionally get something, such as ice cream "on the fly". I can easily stand in front of the ice cream section for ten minutes trying to decide which flavor I want based on brand, calories and price. Same with the Keurig coffees. At restaurants, I generally don't have much of a problem. Even going to places I've never been because I know what I like. That doesn't mean that I won't try something different, but it generally only takes me a couple of minutes to decide. Planning bigger things, such as moving from AZ to FL, does take me quite a while. Not weeks or months, but a number of hours over a few days. Reserving the truck is easy. I've found that Penske is the way to go for long moves and have never regretted the decision. However, hotels at the various stops along the way take a long time as does planning my route.
I'm currently researching different brands of waffle irons. Seriously, I think I should make a spreadsheet because I keep getting them all mixed up. I want one that makes two at a time that is a small machine & can also be converted into a panini press. Debating about a 3rd feature of a grill (like a George Forman Grill.) Yep, all the options and then narrow it down...
I’m the same but it’s so tiring and often leads to analysis paralysis. Two years ago we wanted to upgrade our windows and by the time we placed our order, I knew more about windows than the salesman 😂 I don’t understand how most people just get new windows without doing any research whatsoever. My partner is the same and us wanting to know and consider every single detail really slows down anything we want to upgrade in our house 🤓 1.5 years and counting for putting a water filter system 😬
When I finally went to buy my van, I literally knew more about the van than the sales guy. I kid you not. I was legit showing him features I wanted to see in person he didn't even know existed. 🤦♀️
"When I hear another content creator explain it, it makes more sense; when I try to read something from more of a medical perspective, I don't get it". Basically me not identifying as autistic when I was just studying it in college and reading the DSM criteria, vs me finding out I'm actually autistic by listening to the lived experiences of fellow autistic and auDHDers on RUclips. Medical jargon just makes no sense to my brain.
I'm sorry, I saw someone else say this too. It's working on my end so I'm not sure what happened. Thanks for letting me know, I'll have to check my settings.
Oh no! I didn't even think about that. Yeah, I'm really not sure what was going on with my sound. I think my husband changed a setting on my computer. I used a mic in today's video so hopefully it's better.
Amanda. I love your content! However, I find it very hard to hear you most of the time, even with the volume at full. Not criticizing. Just notifying. Much love!
If I remember correctly this particular video I had some sound issues that I didn't know about until after uploading. For some reason the sound was fine on my computer. I've been working on remembering to use my mic since this video. Sorry your user experience isn't the best, I apologize sincerely for that.
Right now I'm supposed to decide whether i will go back to school, and i was thinking of accounting but now i think i might hate the actual job so i started thinking maybe something else would suit me better.. o no! So i looked at some colleges that r close and looked at the programs they offer. There were so so many choices, nightmare. I have asked myself in my journal so many times which way i ought to go but i just don't know. I feel lost which seems crazy, I'm in my 30s with 2 kids. It's seeming ridiculous now
do I need to buy a bike? or buy sneakers? my father is sick and I need to understand certain medical argot? Of course !! I need to become an expert in each of those things hahaha xD Days, weeks studying every aspect of what interests me; I could give a lecture to hospital interns on gastric ulcers (due to my father's hospitalization years ago). Also, in the same way I came to the self-diagnosis (due to the diagnosis of my niece, you know, I read alll the papers I could find on ASD, ADHD, BAP, etc).
Is it possible that someone is sleeping in the background - and making some noise? I feel terribly distracted by that noise. If there is a way to inhibit this, that would be great.
The sound on this video got messed up, I apologize. It was fine on my computer, but feedback I got was it didn't upload great. The sleeping you hear might be my Pug, he snores loud and is almost always near me.
I have written notes on bottom up thinking from your video, and thank you Amanda for such a detailed and informative video with examples, which really helps to bring understanding about whats being said. Just one question.... what is top down thinking?
I'm still trying to figure out top down thinking which is how Neurotypical people usually process. I know they use more past experience type of info. So in my example they wouldn't have even considered buying a truck because they would have just known to eliminate from past data. In a restaurant they know "generally" how restaunts work so a new restaurant isn't going to overwhelm, while an Autistic person is going to scope out ALL the details and compare. Counter service? Wait staff? Seat yourself? Wait for seating? Booths, tables? We take in all the details of the entire restaurant at hyper speed before we can move on to conversation, looking at menu, ect. Hope that helps, like I said, I'm still learning.
@@i.am.mindblind I love your channel and your natural presentational style. On this top-down/bottom up topic however It's worth noting that allistic people actually do both. In fact many autistic people ALSO do both, to varying degrees obviously, and for some with considerable effort if it is not as natural. a.) Top-down thinking enables us to perceive the world by drawing on what we already know in order to interpret new information (Gregory 1970). b.) In our lives we form frameworks, called 'schema' made up of past experiences, prior knowledge, emotions, and expectations which then allow us to form new hypotheses about what to do when we receive new information/stimuli. c.) Gregory goes on to say that every day we receive an endless stream of stimuli and sensory information which would become overwhelming to process each one individually and attach equal value to, in order to process each sensation and would overwhelm us as individuals. So we develop a framework to allow us to bypass the legwork and use this to form new hypotheses. (I suspect this is where there may be a disconnnect with autistic people who may do the opposite or find this method challenging or not be able to do it at all). d.) SO essentially, the use of our senses alone is not enough (90% of the stimuli we receive is often lost before it gets to the brain). Neither is the use of existing schema. We need BOTH systems: use of prior knowledge and experiences is necessary in order to hypothesise the meanings of new information we absorb from the bottom-up system. Very interesting subject. Piaget, Goldstein and Gregory et al write extensively about this subject. www.simplypsychology.org/top-down-processing.html
I cannot even relate to going inside a restaurant! How can anyone go on there without getting sick from those fumes of the food? ❓❓❓ grain fumes everywhere! Burning eyes, itching, joint pain starts up when a moment before I had 0 pain. Brain fog. I react outside the restaurant too! Those food places are BAD!! even across the street those fumes can get you.. Better to go down a totally different street.. I am talking about walking on foot mind you. I dont have a vehicle.. Walking everywhere is better. But with these allergies I am living on a few foods. That darn corn is in everything. And those places that have the waiters × real plates and all: i bet the stuff they use to wash the plates is full of corn! Cannot eat off of plates / forks etc washed in that. I react to it. Was reacting to it back in 2019 already. Ate off a plate at someone's house who was using that Dawn and I got so bloated and that burping started and the burping went on for over a week and since my stomach was full of gas i had no appetite. You take a sip of water and you are full! And then the skin starts peeling and you get all of these other reactions too. But all of that stuff is not safe! And cross contaminated!! If you have celiac you cannot eat in those places. And I have never seen any totally grain free restaurant. Even the packaging food comes in can be bad. Look they are finding micro plastics in people's blood these days! And it is causing blood clots. The more food you eat out of plastic... Anyway I can no longer relate to that. And yes I have autism too. Type 1. But I also have hEDS + cptsd + mcas + celiac + corn allergy. My life is ruled by these allergies.
Thanks to medical neglect from my parents, I developed musculoskeletal imbalances and chronic pain. They were severe and went on for over 20 years without treatment. BTW CBD with THC are great, but hypnotic suggestion can get rid of pain permanently
That PDA thing, there is no way ANYONE whatever nerotype they are that would accept DEMANDS in my country. You simply do not demand things of others. Seems to be an American culture thing that you think you have some kind of right to DEMAND things of others? You can only use bikes if you wear helmets, that is not a demand. You can only work here if you do the job. Not a demand. I walk up to you and DEMAND you lick the floor or wash my clothes or jump out a window. EVERYONE should be PDA, it's SICK to thing you can demand stuff of others.
@@i.am.mindblind it was pretty quiet, I had to turn up full volume. didn't you have captions or subtitles? Headphones might help cut out external noises
@@i.am.mindblind I Love Sushi for 1 and a Book!! Sushi has kind of fallen off my plate, lately... stupid ARFID. But I hate that cucumber ends up in everything, regardless if it isn't on the menu or you ask for "No Cucumber!" Agreed as far as getting better at reading my "Spoon Tank Gauge" and being able to (sometimes) avert the meltdown, or at least shorten it. My dogs also help me manage my mood; if the little one runs away, I am on my own and a meltdown is coming soon. If I have a lap puppy, I'm "green" or close to. I was going to ask how the foot was! Glad you mentioned at the end =o) And yeah, I kinda hold my "troubles" very close to the chest, so I usually tell people I am fine; it takes people close to me to be able to see through it, but I have none such people in my life at this time... So I just manage me. I guess it is weird, but people that are able to see me clearly, see through the mask, predict my actions, and thwart my "schemes", are also the ones that can see when I am hiding a bad day... but it takes them seeing through the mask for us to finally get close and so few people see through me.
Not really, my husband and I just clicked and it just made sense for us to get married. Not that it's always been easy, but we've always been able to communicate and work stuff out. When we bought a house I went on hyperfixation and did a ton of research, but it didn't feel hard because I was focused and excited.
I had to stop listening because I think you mentioned seaworld As a viable option of things that people would Do without shame and that is not acceptable.
so now i know why i've been called indecisive my whole life 🥲 & this is why i can't research products bc it's *too much,* i get a headache just thinking abt it. so i make my partner do the research-y stuff 😁
onemorething i also like new foods! i wouldn't have had much of a problem w that either except i would be like *this is not what i wanted fml* & that's what would have made me upset. & yes i have my comfort foods @ home bc i don't have to think abt what to buy @ the store, i don't have to plan, i can literally eat the same 3 things every day for months. but it always makes me question my autism bc so many ppl are like *i don't like new food experiences* but then I chalk it up to the adhd. also being vegetarian/pescatarian (i ❤ sushi as well) really narrows down the choices at restaurants 😁
I’m autistic, so I only know bottom up thinking. What does top down thinking look like?
Top Down thinking uses a lot of background/past experience to inform decisions. So an Neurotypical person entering a restruant has "restaurant" running in their head and a new restaurant is "close enough" to this pattern to not cause any anxiety or stress. An Autistic person upon entering a new restaurant will look is it counter service? Wait staff? Seat yourself? Wait for seating? Where are the restrooms? Boots or tables? Perhaps were are the speakers so I can sit away from them. All of this is processing before we can talk, look at a menu, etc.
At least this is my current understanding of the different types of thinking.
I thought I am neurotypical but I think like you... Going in a new place; restaurant, shop, whatever makes me very anxious.
Janicas, I think the top down thinking must be more like gut instinct. One author describes it as "fast thinking"" rather than analysis.
I've told my therapist that when I'm overwhelmed, stuck, and don't know where to start on an issue, I build a spreadsheet. It could be planning which college to transfer to and which classes and majors to choose, it could be planning a time/activity with my kids, it could be handling relationships in a proactive (rather than passive or reactionary) way... I'll start building a spreadsheet until I can see the patterns I need to make the right decisions. I suspect NTs don't default to spreadsheet building to tackle life/adulting issues. ;-)
@@i.am.mindblind As an allistic person I can say that (we? Or at least people like myself) also think about the things you have mentioned an autistic person would. It just doesn't override the desire to go into the restaurant as you can find out the unknown variables by asking questions, or going off the experience as you encounter it, instead of trying to account for and computate all the unknown variables (an impossible task). I understand why autistic people need this certainty though, to reduce potential anxiety and stress; it's just not a factor which is enough to override will/motivation if it exists for that thing amongst many allistics and there are fewer sensory issues which could act as extra inhibitors.
I suppose to autistic people with extra challenges regarding communicating with/approaching people and then articulating queries might inhibit the bypass that allistic people would have before a menu has even been looked at.
@@bryonyvaughn2427 I relate so hard to this! I don’t do physical spreadsheets, but I do something similar in my head. It’s like connect the dots to show me the pattern. Big life choices, I do brainstorming on paper for sure. And I am also very proactive in figuring out relationships. Meaning I think hard and deliberately on how to approach them.
I'm autistic, and this type of thinking is pretty typical of me in some situations. HOWEVER, I tutor a high school math and physics student with autism, and I've seen this type of thinking on display again and again. He has to approach problems from a very foundational level, examining and piecing together every detail of a problem, and build a solution from that. He doesn't think like, "this is a forces question, so I have to split this into components...", but like "I have an object here; there's a push applied to it; it makes the object move; the object was at rest, so its velocity changed; that means it accelerated; if there's acceleration, there's force, so the push was a force; the force has components" it can turn even simple problems into long discourses and projects. I thought I was just bad at trying to foster that type of thinking in him, but maybe he just comes like that.
Yep, different autistic people will take this bottom up processing to different levels. As someone who high masks I can sometimes skip steps (I've been trained to overlook stuff) , my son though has to work through every single step of a situation/problem.
@@i.am.mindblind Trained not overlook or skip but trained to keep our mouths shut.
I find choosing something from a menu immensely stressful; sometimes, I feel I am going to burst into tears because it feels like too much pressure. I take so much longer than everyone else to try to decide, and even though I REALLY try to decide between the choices on the menu, it is too much information and I feel overwhelmed by the information, because I have difficulties with processing inflation and remembering what I read and keeping it in my head long enough to make any decisions. So despite REALLY trying to choose something different, I almost always choice the same thing as always.
Yes!! And if I'm with people they get impatient. I have to ask the waiter for more time repeatedly. And I end up getting the usual. I really have to Make an effort to try a new menu item, or even worse a brand new (to me) restaurant, especially if it's strange and different food I'm not used to
What I started doing when I could afford to eat out, is pick up a flyer that has their menu on it, so I can study when I'm relaxed with no pressure
@@recoveringsoul755 people's impatience with me can be more painful and damaging to me, than the embarrassment of being so slow at trying to decide. Because of these reactions from people, I have become fearful of others, because their reactions create in me such intense pain and suffering.
@@donnanewby3386 ask them what they are getting, what they like, maybe tell them you want pasta or chicken or whatever you feel like and ask them to help you. Then they'll be reading the menu too. And 2 heads are better than one, plus it lowers the pressure
Me too! So that could be a sign of autism? I am almost 37 years old and never have thought I could be autistic, but then started suspecting if my children are really neurotypical and now RUclips recommended me this channel and I recognize myself of so many things.
I'm mostly, a verbal, and and pattern thinker aswell. I don't understand people, who don't pattern. Thank you, Amanda 🙏
Very relatable. Restaurant menus are annoying for anyone with me. I have to read every item. I wish they were all picture menus. It's easier with pictures. If it's all words I have to read it and try to imagine what it might look like or taste like. Which would be impossible for you, right, with aphantasia?
Sometimes I've just ordered stuff that I see being delivered to someone else's table because it looks good or smells good.
Funny you should say that because yes, sometimes I've read a menu item and I can't picture it but I'm thinking it'll be similar to something I've seen before and they'll bring something out that isn't what I thought at all. Lol. I've definitely seen other people's orders and thought, oh that looks good! I should try it. 😁
@@i.am.mindblind I once tried to be brave and order a different steak than normal. They brought me raw meat. Which was apparently what I ordered. I just... couldn't. I apologized and sent it back.
I told a friend I wanted to try something new, like calamari. He took me to a place that he thought had Good ones. I liked them. But at other places, if I hadn't had good one first, I would have hated them. I swear it's teeny tiny baby steps.
I agree about the pictures making it easier. Sometimes, restaurants make the meal sound posh, but I do not understand what the foods listed even are then. I am definitely more able with visual than language.
But with an only picture menu how would you know the ingredients?? How does a picture give you the ingredients inside a hamburger bun? Or what is inside that hunk of cheese? If you need to avoid X ingredient (and most likely multiple ingredients) a picture would not work...
As far as bottom-up thinking goes, I've always described the way I process things as a giant web. I think of one piece of the web and then another until I have this whole interconnected web or schema around the decision (almost like crocheting a lace doily but not quite so methodical or linear). Then I can step back and look at the whole web to start to make a decision and narrow it down. I didn't know there was a term for this! It's incredibly tiring but I honestly wouldn't have it any other way. I love the unique way I look at situations. It's helped me to be really good at process improvement at work.
OMG, I HATE last minute changes. That can throw me off and just leave me in such a state. Restaurants: I like to look at the menu ahead of time online, because I hate making everyone wait while I dissect all the details. 2 big problems though:
1) when the restaurant has a new menu they haven't changed to online, and the food you chose is not available anymore.
2) when you are all set and the group/family changes the restaurant at the last minute (or you get there and they are closed on Mondays, so you have to go somewhere else). This can throw me into 'stuck' mode, where my brain literally becomes stuck and cannot think or process anything. And my wife is like, "Just pick something," and it's never that easy. It doesn't help that I have food sensory issues. And then I feel the pressure to have to pick 'something'.
This is one reason I almost always order the same food at familiar restaurants. It's easy to do and it's something that I know I will like. My wife knows that if a restaurant serves breakfast (especially 24/7), that I will almost always get breakfast. I eat breakfast at home at anytime too. I'm very much into familiar foods, partly because when I like something, I really, really like it. Why would I eat something I kind of like instead of totally love? This is one reason I don't like parties or family gatherings, because I usually can't, or won't eat 95% of the food. It can be a challenge for me. People who don't experience this will NOT ever understand it.
A note on sensory food issues: while I might not like a food in one manner, I might actually enjoy it in another. Things I don't texturally like, if they are changed, like ground up/powdered/or something to change the texture, or cooked as part of something else, I will often eat.
Oh yes! One year on my birthday I was all set to go to a Chinese restaurant but they were closed on the day we went and I wasn't expecting it. Like you said my brain just froze and I had hungry kids and I couldn't pick a new place. Thankfully my husband picked for me but it was such a frustrating situation.
Or like you said there is one place I always get the chicken sandwich. Well they changed their menu and took off the sandwich. I was completely stuck and didn't know what to order because my brain was stuck on the sandwich that no longer was a choice!
I have the same difficulties. Menus throw me completely... information and choice everywhere, and I am unable to process it and cross-compare them, process and remember what i have just read long enough to make a choice. My processing speed and ability to keep things in my head is GREATLY impacted. Other people make their codes, but I feel pressurised from the moment I get the menu to make a choice quickly (even feel stressed at the idea of going to a restaurant because I know I will have to make a decision). I do not think quickly, and struggle with decision making, and am aware others are waiting. Even though I REALLY try to make a decision to eat something different to before, I find that I just cannot, and after much thinking (to the point that I feel my head is going to pop out), I end up choosing the same thing I always do.
I know, plans made, and unexpected changes. Oh my poor head (well, it's actually rich; hope that makes sense). When people make promises, and don't do what that say, umm. That's hard, I like b it when things are soft. I generally feel so much more comfortable. Around other people who, are considered neurodiverse; our extended family. Say if somebody put something. In one of my food cupboards. Not normally, where I keep it. I could be staring right at it, and I can't see anything. Is that mind blindness?
What you are describing with not seeing something right in front of you is common with ADHD. (maybe autism too? There is a lot of overlap) But basically ADHD brains will delete information it doesn't think is pertinent. Mindblindness is usually referred to Aphantasia and not being able to visualize in your mind's eye.
I always check the menu before hand!
At work, we all had to complete an online course. It stated it would take 0.3 hours. My boss completed it in 16 mins, I took almost 2 hours because I had to read everything! He is able to skim but I can’t miss any details. But I understand now, because of your video. Thank You so much 😊
Yes, so common for many of us. Tests and forms can be so difficult! Often my ADHD side kicks in and I just can't process the questions. I either am all in and take forever or just gloss over cross my fingers and hope for the best.
God that’s me me all the time, too. My life’s motto is “I am not fast” yet people never really get it until examples like this come up.😅
@@Savvy1718 we ain’t fast but in the end we have a better skill and understanding because we took the time. And paid attention to detail. 🙂
I certainly enjoyed this video. I laughed suddenly knowing, hearing you share, relieving my confusion. You are a god send to us who are neurodivergent. I had a head injury at 44 yrs old. I have struggled to survive and hide what I am but YOU have made me realize that I am far from alone. I am proud to be included in your group. 71 yrs old smiling again. Bless your heart.
Gwen! Thank you for this comment. It made me feel really good to know you were smiling along with me. ❤️❤️❤️
I am not an autist, but I do not like to take decisions without having the whole picture. So, my favourite approach is making spreadsheets where I can continously add, classify and measure data on the decision topic.
Spreadsheets are a favorite tool with many Autistic people. But yes, all Autistic traits are human traits. They become Autism when they become sufficient in number and detrimental to daily life. 😊
I'm so happy to have found your channel! The confusion, shame, and low self-esteem that I've found comes with living with autism can get so intense, and hearing other adults talk about these experiences is so, so refreshing!
I'm glad you are here too!
When you explained how you make decisions bottom up, i get it. Its how i assume decisions are made. How normals do it remains mysterious.
Story of my life 😊 I spent 2 months at least 6 hours per day surfing the web looking for a second hand motorbike, screenshots, endless comparisons etc. then I ended up buying a brand new one because I couldn't decide which one to buy and it made me crazy.
This is so relatable! I used to call it "zooming in/out" because of the big picture vs details thing, and because it highly depends of the type of result I want to arrive: is this to apply or to analyze? micro vs macro. I found this:
Bottom-up and top-down processing are two different ways of making sense of stimuli. In bottom-up processing, we allow the stimulus itself to shape our perception, without any preconceived ideas. In top-down processing, we use our background knowledge and expectations to interpret what we see.
I believe the important distinction is the notion of *preconceived ideas*. NT learn by social osmosis and dynamics that look like follow-the-leader, they'll go to the restaurant that the leader has approved (according to them, their social leader has "already checked" for safety). They don't need to check twice. To them makes no sense. They trust the leader's decision making skills, trading compliance for safety.
But us, specially if defiant, will try to test for everything, because logically that situation is completely new. It looks like something familiar but we know it's not. So we run the usual scans according to our needs again, because the physical place itself was probably built to help NT make sense of stimuli and not ND folk.
That's an example of something physical but I think I happens at all levels.
I'm new to your channel, love your videos!! :)
Welcome! Glad you found me. I like your break down of bottom up, top down. Comments like this really help others reading through too. So thanks!
Bingo, nice to have someone speaking to this! Long before I was aware of my autism, I knew I had slow processing but never really understood all the pieces or connected the dots. Many decisions, because of all that goes into it, are very difficult. I would add everything that requires me to consider multiple details is hard. Things I actually could/should enjoy, like writing, gardening and meal preparation, I don't enjoy because I'm overwhelmed by the details, by having too many moving pieces. So it is really hard to even maintain interest in any hobby or pursuit. I do really enjoy thinking about interests and ideas but being stuck in the conceptual (and really a lack of others to engage with) I will eventually consider things to death and just lose the interest. Now that I've gotten older, I desperately seek things to apply my mind toward. But I feel like an explorer with no more places to explore.
I process everything the same way. One of my autistic "special interests" relates to cars. One day I am standing at the auto parts store looking at the oil filters and asked myself why I am buying a particular brand. So, I bought all of them that would fit my car and cut them open. Then I ordered oil filters that were not at that store to add to the comparison. Short version of this story is after I compared all of the technical details, I could make a decision. Then my brail flipped to oil. So I have to get all of product data sheets for every brand to compare their specs. Then I got in to used analysis of all these same brands and captured all of that data in a spreadsheet. Once I educated myself on all of the data points, I could then make a decision based on our use cases. All of that took many months to compile and it was super fun for me.
I do this with EVERYTHING.
I might need your kind of people in my life
Yes, I have definitely noticed my own process and it is very similar to yours. For example, when I was a classroom teacher and I had been allotted a small budget of discretionary money to spend, I also went through a very time-consuming and in-depth process of researching everything available before I could feel confident that I was spending the money in the best way. When I tried to analyze just what my process was, in the hope that I would eventually hit on “my way” and save time and energy, my metaphor for it was like a gelatin needing time to set in the fridge, or like a pot of soup needing time to come to a boil, or like a cold car engine needing time to warm up. I tried to explain to the parent of a student who I tutor in writing that her son’s process and mine seemed similar in the aspect that we both need to work through the trees to see the forest; that it’s a constant zooming in and then zooming back out, getting a feel for the overall big picture in this way. A professor gave my class several learning surveys in order to help us define our personal learning style. She said that I stood out in that I was apparently a global learner, as opposed to a predominantly left or right-brained learner. That was over thirty years ago and my conception of being global is that I take longer than the average bear to work through something but if I give it the full due, I can come up with a good product. Unfortunately, that means I’m terrible with meeting deadlines and it takes me quite a bit of hyper focus to reach “the zone.”
I don’t have the issue with restaurant menus, btw.
I appreciated this topic. I look forward to exploring other questions about our similar ways of processing. It’s one thing to read it in a book by an expert and another to hear someone who lives it. I’ve often been told that I “overthink” things and I know that I need a longer time than 99% of others to accomplish something more complex. I am currently very much enjoying the relative luxury of online tutoring at a ratio of no more than 3:1.
Thank you for this comment! I love the examples you gave.
I don’t have the issue with menus because I don’t have any taste or sensory issues. Plus, I’m thinking that it may be an example of how I mask; in this case, subsuming my personal tastes to the collective by asking my friend what their favorite is and ordering that. I’ve got two sons with autism and they’ve been very selective in their food since age 2. One son has become more open to foods but for years, he didn’t go beyond chicken in one form or another, usually chicken strips or nuggets or wings. The other one has at least expanded to bean and cheese burritos in addition to grilled cheese sammies, Buffalo chicken nuggets, pepperoni pizza, and double cheeseburgers 😊
I recently heard someone mentioning that their ADHD makes them see the Big Picture (did not hear that before, not sure how common that is for ADHD). Also I'm often told/criticized for noticing tiny details. Questions like "are you a Big Picture thinker or detail thinker?" confuse me: my answer would be Big Picture + detail (ADHD + autism). Can't we just be bottom up and top down at the same time?
Attention to detail in autism, I guess comes from knowing how every tiny thing can be a big problem for us, so we end up being perfectionist considering every aspect, just trying not to hurt ourselves (which at some point leads us to a burnout 😇)
Yes this is where I struggle to understand these concepts. I feel like I'm looking at the big picture when I take in all the details but I don't think that's what NTs are referring too. But it's hard to imagine another way of processing. Haha!
Isn’t it that the big picture is made up of all the details though?
Also, sometimes I ‘can’t see the trees for the wood’ (as opposed to ‘can’t see the wood for the trees’) like in TK Maxx (I think you call it TJ Maxx in US). To me that place is like a jumble sale and I can only bear being in there for about 5 minutes before my brain goes swirly. There are just too many disparate items all different colours jumbled together and there is no way I can locate something I might be looking for or am interested in looking at. I can deal with clothes shops where things are hanging together in separate groups of similar things with space between sections.
Very cool to hear that others experience the world this way, too! I find online/catalog shopping really difficult and time consuming!
I've just realised this is exactly the issue I'm having with finding a therapist. Every time I try, I find websites which just list hundreds of them, with hardly any detail about each (unless you go into each profile, and then it's just a load of text that may or may not mention relevant things in it, in an inconsistent way). I can't just pick one that seems like they might be ok, without going through them all and comparing etc. So it's just way too much, and I end up not doing anything. And that's been going on for years now too.
The main reason I want to find a therapist is because I'm hoping it might help some cognitive/memory issues that have been going on for years now (and getting worse, to the point where I almost can't do anything useful now), one of which is actually that I can't hold large amounts of information in my head and process them like I used to (it's like my working memory capacity has got much smaller)
Yes, when I was searching for a therapist I got so overwhelmed with the process. I started with a list of therapists on my insurance list. That helped narrow it down. Then I removed any with religion on their website because I'm secular and while I don't care if my therapist is religious, I didn't want one that uses religion in their practice. (Some people seek out religious Therapists.) Then it was just finding someone with availablity and I got lucky. Good luck, sometimes it takes a while. My son has gone through four therapists already this year while we are looking for a good fit.
Yes! I’ve realized that choosing food from a menu is very difficult for me as well! Too many choices…and then the deep evaluation of whether I’m making the “right choice” for the situation, especially if other people are eating with me and they are making decisions! My difficulty became very apparent to both me and my husband after I had a meltdown in a restaurant after I was expected to order after just a few minutes of looking at the menu. But, through that difficult experience and following conversation, I learned that it’s not only okay for me but best for me to ask for 5 minutes. If I can’t decide what to order after that, I’ll just ask my husband to order for me as he’s really good at doing that and knows what I would like.
I’m a teacher and also find that I use bottom-up thinking when lesson planning. While I have the goals and outcomes in my mind, I usually have to write out the performance/evaluation and practice/activities parts out first and only after I solidify that, then I can finally write my goals and outcomes.
My husband is often better at ordering for me than I am too. I tend to let adhd side go crazy in a restaurant and order something complicated when simple usually is better.
So I knew my family were mostly autistic, plus one ADHD and one probably-autistic-but-definitely-ND, but I honestly didn't know big decisions like this weren't so difficult and excruciating for everyone 🤯 a new *anything* takes weeks of research if it's desperate, or months to years if it's less urgent. You're telling me the rest of the world gets to play these quests on easy mode?! So unfair.
Lol, maybe not easy mode but definitely a different processing that tends to go faster somehow. To give some comfort it's been shown that while NT people can arrive at a decision faster, Autistic people show less regrets after making a decision or if it's solving a problem have statistically less errors.
I'm partially mind-blind. I see in my mind, but the images are fleeting. In school, I did pretty well because I had an excellent verbal sound memory. But I flunked organic chemistry 4 times and had to change my major from biology because visuals of molecules are important. Visual basic? I didn't realize most people can visualize until five years ago.
Your hair is so pretty!
I usually plan out intricate vacations, spending WAYYYYY TOOOOO much time on each detail in order to "maximize" each day. While time-consuming, this "bottom-up" approach has lead to some fantastic trips.
This past year, I've been feeling burned out. Every time I started planning a trip, I'd get so overloaded and stressed that I'd completely give up. This went on for a year. One day, a really great flight-deal presented itself and I decided to buy the tickets. It was a few months out, so I figured I'd have time to plan. HA. Even though I knew the general area of the trip, I was still unable to plan.
As the trip grew closer, my anxiety increased and the planning went unplanned. By the time we made it to the airport for our trip, I had 5 of 15 hotel nights reserved. We often didn't even know where we were staying the next night, and being too tired to research, it forced me to "just pick." I'm not going to lie, there were some tears of frustration trying to figure out our next stop. However, the trip itself was still amazing!
I am sure I will still struggle with vacation planning in the future. I am sure I will slip into that "analysis paralysis" mode, and struggle to get out. However, in the back of my mind, I now know the following:
(1) My way of "bottom up" thinking can be an asset to vacation planning, but it is not necessary for an enjoyable trip.
(2) If I am in need of a vacation, but feeling too burnt out to plan.....just buy the ticket. This places a time-limit on my analysis while still ensuring I will get to go on vacation.
I hope you book that trip soon. Remember, it doesn't need to be the "optimal" cruise line. Maybe pick the one that offers Dark Coco for breakfast.
I love this! Yes, often I get so overwhelmed with choices I just PICK (seemingly blindly at that point.) I haven't done it with something big. I think I could do that vacation approach with just my husband and I but with my two autistic kids too, that would be just impossible I feel. 😂😁
Wooowwww I experience this exact thinking pattern! Haha, so difficult, but helps us find what we want when we can hone in
Exactly, I rarely have buyers remorse because I've done such extensive research. 😊
I have been on one cruise and I enjoyed it. In fact I booked a couple more. That being said, the ship can be crowded and noisy, especially on sea days. Be prepared for a bit of sensory overload. There are many RUclips channels that can give you good advice for packing, etc.
I did a cruise about 10/11 years ago. I didn't get off the boat to do any of the excursions and those days were my favorite because the boat would be so much more empty! Lol.
I got my colon into a massive spasm from doing too much research just to replace four tyres on my car. I was in so much pain just this morning. So the added anxiety of buying the right tire to vehicle manufacturers specification, I had to look at too many things I’m many would overlook. Finally ordered the tires.
Hope all is well now
@@i.am.mindblind yes, all better now thank you. I just have to keep watch of any triggers. Just hope it doesn’t happen again. It was painful.
I knew what bottom up thinking was but your explanation was so helpful in really painting the picture. Much appreciated!
Thank you for the courage, bringing to light all the issues I also have but not aware of before now. Also about pain.
I have extreme chronic pain and because I don't wear grimace on my face my doctor is not convinced of how hard it has been for me. And as far as going out to eat so like get an idea of what I want before I go because the pressure of making a decision fast irks me. And I can also relate to the last minute changes. I experienced a meltdown privately when I thought I would hang out with my friend yesterday but he wasn't back in town to hang out. I went on a long walk around town,got lost and ended being really sore and sad the rest of the evening. Luckily I have my coping mechanism of drawing and writing poetry. Thank you for helping me to feel like I am not alone. By the way my therapist told me just this year that I have ASD and to find a psychologist to give me a diagnosis. Thank you for all that you do ❤❤❤❤
It's so frustrating when your pain isn't believed because of a flat effect. Like, they don't correlate! I get it.
I'm autistic and ADHD. Sometimes I'm able to just go with the flow based on how I'm feeling in that moment. I'm not overwhelmed by menus in restaurants and am a sensory seeker. I've also lived overseas for years, so my point of view is...if it's not expensive, I'll try anything at least once!
Then there are the big things and so much research goes into those things. I need to know every little thing. I sympathized with the family travel situation, because for me, just being one person, I will sometimes book the plane tickets / hotels and then figure everything else out when I get there, but as one person I have the freedom and flexibility to do what works best for me, and if it's a safe country / place, a lot of times I do the research as I go or think about what I feel like doing on a particular day.
Doing my Masters right now. The list of resources for my research poster is absolutely insane, but it started with being tasked to understand the neurology / brains of English language learners, and English language learners with learning disabilities, but then I couldn't just stop there, I had to understand EVERYTHING to get a whole picture - getting into all of the little details about what might be going on, and then how to help.
I have so many things to tell you about that idk where to start; first it is been very difficult to find someone to get a diagnosis for me (no many places do adults around here may seems, and then the waiting time) and that is giving me a lot of anxiety because as a possible autistic person I need confirmation (self diagnosis is not enough for me, idk if that also happens to you but I do need an official confirmation). Since this realization I have been struggling really bad with my mood swings and Idk why! Also I was talking to my therapist about you and SDAM and how sound like a could have it too, and she came with something very interesting: talking about how I don’t have vivid memories of any of my vacations trips (since I was a child) my brain maybe gets sensory overload during those periods and I dissociate myself making my brain kind shut down so I only have this memories on 3rd person (I almost can see myself in a scene but not on 1st person)
I thought it made so much sense because every time I have been on vacation as an adult I always feel like in a dream.
Interesting. I have Aphantasia so no visuals for me, memory or present day. When I think back to a vacation memory I have a list of things we did. Like when I went to Hawaii in 2019 before the pandemic. I only know the date because it was just before the pandemic. I know we spent most of our days on the beach, we ate at some food carts and went to a luau. I can maybe come up with a few other facts about what we did but I don't remember the experience as an memory full of emotions or details.
I think I just realized why I like going on cruises and places like Disneyland for vacations. It's because it takes a lot less detail planning on my part because everything you're expected to do/go is built in. I've attempted planning a trip to Hawaii a couple of times, but I get stuck researching all of the islands.
Yes! One of my favorite vacations ever was a cruise, because everything is just all planned. But I didn't plan/book the cruise. I'm stuck on how to navigate that part. Lol.
I also like to check out the menu ahead of time to narrow down my choices. I'm not sure if this relates exactly to top-down vs bottom-up thinking but I find that I really need to know how information fits into the larger whole (the pattern). So in the workplace I need to know more than just my little part of the process- I need to know what happens before, after, why things are done a certain way, etc. It makes me very good at customer service because I have both details and the global understanding!
Yes, it's why a lot of Autistic people can't do a task unless they know why it's being done. Without the info the brain can't continue forward. Many bosses don't like this and want workers just to focus on their task but it makes things harder for an Autistic person.
At first I thought that I don't do this (bottom up thinking). Then I realized that although i don't do it as systematically, i still do. Buying a car is a good example. For years, I thought about what kind of car I wanted before i was able to figure it out. But i ended up getting the perfect car for me and im so pleased with it.
Travel plans are the worst. Even just going to see family (they live in another country) has so many options. It's exhausting
P.s. I love your squishmellows. I refer to mine e as my emotional support squishmellows 😂
I would have no idea how to/ where to start/ any clue whatsoever planning a holiday/trip/vacation. I have only ever been with my family as a child and I’m now 54. The idea of going away and the travel aspect is so stress inducing I can’t imagine it would be enjoyable. I have tried to go on a trip twice with a couple of groups I was involved in and all I had to do was basically turn up at the place I was being picked up from but both times I ended up going home the next day because it was too distressing being away from home with people I didn’t know very well.
Decision paralysis! Oh my gosh, this resonates. Recently 'updated' our car for a newer model, months of research and I got the newer model of our old car. 😂
Every holiday I plan takes forever. Most of the previous ones I've planned have been lovely but the family are relying on me to book the trip. This takes an age and lots of options are assessed, then re-assessed. I absolutely won't commit or can't commit until its almost time to go on vacaton. We have another break in a few weeks. The stress is building and some days it's too overwhelming to start looking.
Then I think. It's just a holiday, just book it already but nope, doesn't happen.
Im addition, in a restaurant, I'd really love to order silence and a pause on time while I'll review the menu and all possible options. I'd also love more photos of the food, that would speed things up. That and less choices!
Honestly, when having 'down time' our sensory processing is in overdrive!
Vacations completely exhaust me and overwhelm me. It's just too may bases to cover and too many things to worry about.
In the last year, a friend of mine told me about scripting and bottom-up thinking and both have changed my freaking life. The process of incorporating those understandings with unmasking is very slow as I can only really change so much at a time. Right now I’m also trying to job search as my current job is not a good fit for me in the ways mentioned or financially. But ohhh am I overwhelmed even thinking about what new job I could possibly do let alone how to start searching and thus working through options 😅
You got it spot on about the menu, at least how it is for me. The funneling you describe, needing to see the menu ahead of time and the trouble you mention trying to read the menu at the restaurant, which is worse if you feel pressure not to take forever on it.
Last time I went out I was prepared but instead didn't go as expected. I had said I didn't need a menu, I already know what I want to order, so it was taken away but then but instead of asking me the question I was prepared for (what would you like to order), I asked which of the 2 specials (it was worded as do I want the___ or the ____) they have up on the board. This made me immediately confused on top of throwing me off on what I was prepared to be asked & what my answer would be (racing thoughts to process kicked in). Also, one of the 2 specials was an item I had went back and forth on just before heading to the place so this added even more to what all was suddenly taxing my brain. A list of different things, questions and statements, all came to mind at once with each feeling equally urgent to get out my mouth right away. I didn't know how to answer and since I felt an internal panic kick in that was just going to quickly get severe, I just picked one of those 2 things without thought to it by saying give me ____ and then contemplated my choice and the unexpected question while I waited on my food. It wasn't until after I left and some time passed that I was able to realize that what likely happened was they didn't think that I had maybe seen the menu before I came, they knew I was a new customer since I said going in I had never been there before and so I guess they thought when I said I knew what I wanted that I must have picked one of those specials on the big chalk board.
Oh wow, yeah I bet that is what happened, they assumed you wanted one of the specials. I would have done the exact same thing as you did though.
This sounds an awful lot like me. I get lost in all the details and get totally overwhelmed to the point where I do nothing. I've gotten to the point over the decades where I start out doing nothing rather that try to figure out what to do. I often forget the options or recommendations of other people because my memory is so bad. I tend to mask by showing so much indifference that other people will make the decision. I have to say though that sometimes my ADHD takes over and I'll decide something with no fore thought at all. It usually ends badly.
When it comes to ordering at a restaurant, I can get overwhelmed if the menu is complex with too many options. I've worked up several strategies to help. I can't go into them all, but I live in Houston and there are a ton of ethnic restaurants of all kinds. I've come to know particular dishes for each ethnicity. In that case I just scan the menu for the items I know and pick one of those. If I go to the same restaurant multiple times I can branch out form there. Other times I do what I call 'panic ordering'. Which is to say that I don't make any decision at all until I'm asked by the waitstaff. At that point I usually pick the safest and usually most unhealthy option. Something like a burger and fries.
This is a great summary of my experience. I hate when ADHD makes a panic decision. And yep, often times I'll scan the menu for say Pad Thai at Thai. But that disappoints me because I actually DO like to try new foods. Also, I grew up in Houston and OMG I miss all the good restraunts! 😭 Portland has a lot, but many are foodie and not necessarily good, just trendy. And because of anxiety I don't like driving into Portland, so I stay on my side of the river in Vancouver, Wa. My favorite restaurant in Houston is called Bayou City Seafood & Pasta. They had a crawfish ettoufe that was amazing! 😍
Hi Amanda! I just wanted to comment for the algorithm, so I will say that I think your curls are so beautiful! Thanks for your content, and take care. ❤
Aw appreciate it! ❤️❤️❤️
Thank you so much for this video and the follow up one! This is exactly what I've been wanting to explain about myself. I've been learning about autism for a while and some things I relate to so much and others not so much. But this! It takes me so long to make decisions, often even relatively simple ones. I get so frustrated with myself that I can't just decide. I've gotten better with deciding at restaurants, especially since I discovered that I have a dairy sensitivity so that severely limits the options. But planning vacations! My husband plans our vacations because if it were up to me it wouldn't happen. I get so overwhelmed that I can't make a decision. Plus, I don't love traveling. I once told a friend who worked for an airline helping people with flight reservations and she was surprised and told me she had never heard of a husband doing the trip planning instead of the wife! That made me wonder how weird I am. Anyway... Some other ways this comes up-- when I go shopping, especially for clothes, I feel the need to look at every option in the whole store before I can make a decision and then I get so overwhelmed and struggle to decide. I often end up buying more than I want or need because I can't narrow it down. Or I don't buy anything because I can't decide. Sometimes I spend half an hour (not that I really know how long, it just feels like forever and I notice a lot of other people coming and going in the mean time) standing there (or circling around the nearby aisles so I don't seem quite as conspicuous) trying to make up my mind which (fill in the blank) I should buy. 😵💫😬 Also, just deciding what to do every day and when and what to make for dinner... I'm a stay at home mom so I don't have a lot of external structure and this is such a struggle. I've tried to follow a routine so there are less decisions but I can't seem to stick with one. Does this seem like autism? I'm just wondering if others who have been diagnosed have a similar experience and if that is unique to autism. Anyway, thank you again for sharing!
Your examples do seem like bottom up processing. But you'll need to do more research, take online tests and keep watching variety of content creators to discover if your Autistic. Follow up with a clinical evaluation if it's accessible and you feel like it'd be beneficial.
You are super nice! Thank you for sharing your journey and hope you feel better soon ❤
Relatable video, thanks for posting it
so validating thank you. i have so many spreadsheets!
I'm a list maker myself. 😂
Yes! A diagnosis was and is everything. I resonate so well with what you said about melting down and not understanding why and then shaming myself. It helps SO much to understand why and what steps I can take to take care of myself.
I do the same thing when I'm making a purchase of something in going to use a lot, mostly tech stuff, laptop, camera, cell phone.... Research research research. 😅
i feel like there is a link between asking questions and bottum up thinking. in class or social situations i dont have like an answer straight away because there are still so many options to go trough before i can answer the person.
at tests at school i was like where is the rest of the info? do i need to write something based of so little ? what do they want me to say? again there where in my mind 10 answers possible so hard to choose which one to write down (crossing my fingers it would be te right one so i would get points for it)
kinda like you're Iceland school story.
Exactly, I agree this is probably why so many of us struggle with testing.
My whife usually tells me that: Oh there is that situation with this thing so we should do that, but if those conditions are present we should instead do this. By the way when all this happens I need to get the car to that place, I will be there for 30 minutes, but if it lasts for 50 minutes you first have to go there and bring that thing. But if you can't fint this person there you shoud call this person. And if this other thing happens you should go that place instead. What do you think?...
...
And I'am just like: "I just started to process the first condition and I'm half way figuring out all the outcomes of that one situation..." My brain is completly go offline from all the stimulation and I just say: Whatever... Please just tell me what to do.
Damn Autism... :P
If I am understanding the similarity of thinking.
I don't look at things as black and white. I look it as the gray areas too.
When I have to process the information it takes me a while to get to the point of being able to even attempt to talk about it.
It's very frustrating for the neurotypical people in my life as they can't look at things the same way I can, they get frustrated, mad, or they just stop listening all together.
I went to an ice cream place, so many flavors and I’ve never been there before and the flavors have weird names so you don’t know what in them until you try it, I try sooo many flavors and kept staring to choose, my whole family had already picked, and I just stood there staring processing ok what is this, do I like it, but do I want it right now, literally like forever goes by and I end up picking my basic mint chocolate chip, because I didn’t want to be upset and I know I love it and everything was so overwhelming. Would you consider that bottom up thinking?
This is a beautiful example of bottom up processing. 😊
When at a grocery store, I generally know what I want before I leave the house. However, I occasionally get something, such as ice cream "on the fly". I can easily stand in front of the ice cream section for ten minutes trying to decide which flavor I want based on brand, calories and price. Same with the Keurig coffees.
At restaurants, I generally don't have much of a problem. Even going to places I've never been because I know what I like. That doesn't mean that I won't try something different, but it generally only takes me a couple of minutes to decide.
Planning bigger things, such as moving from AZ to FL, does take me quite a while. Not weeks or months, but a number of hours over a few days. Reserving the truck is easy. I've found that Penske is the way to go for long moves and have never regretted the decision. However, hotels at the various stops along the way take a long time as does planning my route.
Oh yes the deliema in the ice cream isle on what to choose.... I know it well! 😂❤️
yayy new video 🥰
This comment made my day. 😊❤️
I make spreadsheets to record research (size, price, url, features, etc) for any large purchase haha.
I'm currently researching different brands of waffle irons. Seriously, I think I should make a spreadsheet because I keep getting them all mixed up. I want one that makes two at a time that is a small machine & can also be converted into a panini press. Debating about a 3rd feature of a grill (like a George Forman Grill.) Yep, all the options and then narrow it down...
I’m the same but it’s so tiring and often leads to analysis paralysis. Two years ago we wanted to upgrade our windows and by the time we placed our order, I knew more about windows than the salesman 😂 I don’t understand how most people just get new windows without doing any research whatsoever. My partner is the same and us wanting to know and consider every single detail really slows down anything we want to upgrade in our house 🤓 1.5 years and counting for putting a water filter system 😬
When I finally went to buy my van, I literally knew more about the van than the sales guy. I kid you not. I was legit showing him features I wanted to see in person he didn't even know existed. 🤦♀️
I feel so seen!!! 😅
"When I hear another content creator explain it, it makes more sense; when I try to read something from more of a medical perspective, I don't get it". Basically me not identifying as autistic when I was just studying it in college and reading the DSM criteria, vs me finding out I'm actually autistic by listening to the lived experiences of fellow autistic and auDHDers on RUclips. Medical jargon just makes no sense to my brain.
❤️❤️❤️ Yes, I think learning from each other in the community has been so much more useful than medical jargon.
I can't hear you even with the volume at full blast.
I'm sorry, I saw someone else say this too. It's working on my end so I'm not sure what happened. Thanks for letting me know, I'll have to check my settings.
@@i.am.mindblind I could hear you well, but I did have my volume near full blast so when the commercials came on, those were very loud
Oh no! I didn't even think about that. Yeah, I'm really not sure what was going on with my sound. I think my husband changed a setting on my computer. I used a mic in today's video so hopefully it's better.
Amanda. I love your content! However, I find it very hard to hear you most of the time, even with the volume at full.
Not criticizing. Just notifying.
Much love!
If I remember correctly this particular video I had some sound issues that I didn't know about until after uploading. For some reason the sound was fine on my computer. I've been working on remembering to use my mic since this video. Sorry your user experience isn't the best, I apologize sincerely for that.
Right now I'm supposed to decide whether i will go back to school, and i was thinking of accounting but now i think i might hate the actual job so i started thinking maybe something else would suit me better.. o no! So i looked at some colleges that r close and looked at the programs they offer. There were so so many choices, nightmare. I have asked myself in my journal so many times which way i ought to go but i just don't know. I feel lost which seems crazy, I'm in my 30s with 2 kids. It's seeming ridiculous now
I completely understand. I've thought about going back to school but how to even get started? It is all overwhelming.
@@i.am.mindblind there are so many subjects that I would love. I love to learn
do I need to buy a bike? or buy sneakers? my father is sick and I need to understand certain medical argot? Of course !! I need to become an expert in each of those things hahaha xD Days, weeks studying every aspect of what interests me; I could give a lecture to hospital interns on gastric ulcers (due to my father's hospitalization years ago). Also, in the same way I came to the self-diagnosis (due to the diagnosis of my niece, you know, I read alll the papers I could find on ASD, ADHD, BAP, etc).
It was really difficult to hear the audio in this video. Thank you for the content.
Yeah, I'm sorry. This video had sound issues that I didn't know about until after uploading. I apologize and hope you will come back for others.
Is it possible that someone is sleeping in the background - and making some noise? I feel terribly distracted by that noise. If there is a way to inhibit this, that would be great.
The sound on this video got messed up, I apologize. It was fine on my computer, but feedback I got was it didn't upload great. The sleeping you hear might be my Pug, he snores loud and is almost always near me.
Are you able to move the microphone closer to you? At full volume I can barely hear you ☺️
Many thanks!
I'm sorry, I think this video in particular had some sound problems. Thank you for your patience with me.
I have written notes on bottom up thinking from your video, and thank you Amanda for such a detailed and informative video with examples, which really helps to bring understanding about whats being said.
Just one question.... what is top down thinking?
I'm still trying to figure out top down thinking which is how Neurotypical people usually process. I know they use more past experience type of info. So in my example they wouldn't have even considered buying a truck because they would have just known to eliminate from past data. In a restaurant they know "generally" how restaunts work so a new restaurant isn't going to overwhelm, while an Autistic person is going to scope out ALL the details and compare. Counter service? Wait staff? Seat yourself? Wait for seating? Booths, tables? We take in all the details of the entire restaurant at hyper speed before we can move on to conversation, looking at menu, ect.
Hope that helps, like I said, I'm still learning.
@@i.am.mindblind I love your channel and your natural presentational style. On this top-down/bottom up topic however It's worth noting that allistic people actually do both. In fact many autistic people ALSO do both, to varying degrees obviously, and for some with considerable effort if it is not as natural.
a.) Top-down thinking enables us to perceive the world by drawing on what we already know in order to interpret new information (Gregory 1970).
b.) In our lives we form frameworks, called 'schema' made up of past experiences, prior knowledge, emotions, and expectations which then allow us to form new hypotheses about what to do when we receive new information/stimuli.
c.) Gregory goes on to say that every day we receive an endless stream of stimuli and sensory information which would become overwhelming to process each one individually and attach equal value to, in order to process each sensation and would overwhelm us as individuals. So we develop a framework to allow us to bypass the legwork and use this to form new hypotheses. (I suspect this is where there may be a disconnnect with autistic people who may do the opposite or find this method challenging or not be able to do it at all).
d.) SO essentially, the use of our senses alone is not enough (90% of the stimuli we receive is often lost before it gets to the brain). Neither is the use of existing schema. We need BOTH systems: use of prior knowledge and experiences is necessary in order to hypothesise the meanings of new information we absorb from the bottom-up system.
Very interesting subject. Piaget, Goldstein and Gregory et al write extensively about this subject.
www.simplypsychology.org/top-down-processing.html
I cannot even relate to going inside a restaurant! How can anyone go on there without getting sick from those fumes of the food? ❓❓❓ grain fumes everywhere! Burning eyes, itching, joint pain starts up when a moment before I had 0 pain. Brain fog. I react outside the restaurant too! Those food places are BAD!! even across the street those fumes can get you.. Better to go down a totally different street.. I am talking about walking on foot mind you. I dont have a vehicle.. Walking everywhere is better. But with these allergies I am living on a few foods. That darn corn is in everything. And those places that have the waiters × real plates and all: i bet the stuff they use to wash the plates is full of corn! Cannot eat off of plates / forks etc washed in that. I react to it. Was reacting to it back in 2019 already. Ate off a plate at someone's house who was using that Dawn and I got so bloated and that burping started and the burping went on for over a week and since my stomach was full of gas i had no appetite. You take a sip of water and you are full! And then the skin starts peeling and you get all of these other reactions too. But all of that stuff is not safe! And cross contaminated!! If you have celiac you cannot eat in those places. And I have never seen any totally grain free restaurant. Even the packaging food comes in can be bad. Look they are finding micro plastics in people's blood these days! And it is causing blood clots. The more food you eat out of plastic... Anyway I can no longer relate to that. And yes I have autism too. Type 1. But I also have hEDS + cptsd + mcas + celiac + corn allergy. My life is ruled by these allergies.
Thanks to medical neglect from my parents, I developed musculoskeletal imbalances and chronic pain.
They were severe and went on for over 20 years without treatment.
BTW CBD with THC are great, but hypnotic suggestion can get rid of pain permanently
I'm glad you found something that works for you
This is why i feel autism is the opposite of adhd sometimes.
i must do bottom up thinking,
That PDA thing, there is no way ANYONE whatever nerotype they are that would accept DEMANDS in my country. You simply do not demand things of others.
Seems to be an American culture thing that you think you have some kind of right to DEMAND things of others?
You can only use bikes if you wear helmets, that is not a demand.
You can only work here if you do the job. Not a demand.
I walk up to you and DEMAND you lick the floor or wash my clothes or jump out a window. EVERYONE should be PDA, it's SICK to thing you can demand stuff of others.
So for PDA it's a Perceived Demand. I'm not saying someone is actually demanding something of me, my brain interprets things as Demand on my Autonomy.
Everything works in fractals. Yeah? The angles of nature. Sometimes 137.5 isn't enough for people... And that's when I get bent out of shape. 😂😂😂
Heh, I found that attempt at humor pretty profound. Lol go me.
I just realized you come back to the video like I come back to my comments, explaining our thought processes.
😂 True. Always explaining. 😊
Hi, I can't hear you
I'm sorry, it seems to be working on my end.
@@i.am.mindblind it was pretty quiet, I had to turn up full volume. didn't you have captions or subtitles? Headphones might help cut out external noises
@@i.am.mindblind
Ditto the quiet times!
@@i.am.mindblind yes, I hear it as the same volume as your other videos. No problems my end either.
I had volume issues, too. Had to turn it up almost all the way
Good Afternoon =o)
It's going okay. Waiting at the foot doctor right now. Blah. Just ready for this foot to be healed.
@@i.am.mindblind
I Love Sushi for 1 and a Book!!
Sushi has kind of fallen off my plate, lately... stupid ARFID. But I hate that cucumber ends up in everything, regardless if it isn't on the menu or you ask for "No Cucumber!"
Agreed as far as getting better at reading my "Spoon Tank Gauge" and being able to (sometimes) avert the meltdown, or at least shorten it.
My dogs also help me manage my mood; if the little one runs away, I am on my own and a meltdown is coming soon. If I have a lap puppy, I'm "green" or close to.
I was going to ask how the foot was! Glad you mentioned at the end =o)
And yeah, I kinda hold my "troubles" very close to the chest, so I usually tell people I am fine; it takes people close to me to be able to see through it, but I have none such people in my life at this time... So I just manage me. I guess it is weird, but people that are able to see me clearly, see through the mask, predict my actions, and thwart my "schemes", are also the ones that can see when I am hiding a bad day... but it takes them seeing through the mask for us to finally get close and so few people see through me.
Did you find other major life decisions, such as choosing a spouse, very difficult and involved?
Not really, my husband and I just clicked and it just made sense for us to get married. Not that it's always been easy, but we've always been able to communicate and work stuff out. When we bought a house I went on hyperfixation and did a ton of research, but it didn't feel hard because I was focused and excited.
I am not sure why, the sound is low in this video....
Yeah, I apologize. In this particular video I had issues. It was fine on my end, but I got feedback something was wrong. Again, super sorry.
I love your videos, I am not sure if I am autistic or not. I hope to find out in February. I have an appointment..
I do well in restaurants unless they are super noisy or busy.
Good luck, I know the process is nerve wracking. ❤️
I had to stop listening because I think you mentioned seaworld As a viable option of things that people would Do without shame and that is not acceptable.
Do you have a time stamp for that? I don't know much about SeaWorld at all so I can't imagine speaking about it.
so now i know why i've been called indecisive my whole life 🥲 & this is why i can't research products bc it's *too much,* i get a headache just thinking abt it. so i make my partner do the research-y stuff 😁
also shoutout to being diagnosed in your 40s + (i'm 45, diagnosed w adhd at 42, self diagnosed as autistic less than a year ago)
onemorething i also like new foods! i wouldn't have had much of a problem w that either except i would be like *this is not what i wanted fml* & that's what would have made me upset.
& yes i have my comfort foods @ home bc i don't have to think abt what to buy @ the store, i don't have to plan, i can literally eat the same 3 things every day for months.
but it always makes me question my autism bc so many ppl are like *i don't like new food experiences* but then I chalk it up to the adhd.
also being vegetarian/pescatarian (i ❤ sushi as well) really narrows down the choices at restaurants 😁