I do disagree on the rating, I think they're a C. My reasoning is that most of they're subclasses get: The Beast, Storm Herald, Ancestral Guardian, Wilde Magic and the aforementioned Totem Warrior; get some utility: -beast -breathing water -climb speed -swimm speed -better jumps -herald -resist cold climates and freez a 5 foot cube of water -sett something on fire and resist hot climates -water breathing and swimm -Wilde Magic -you get detect magic and their wilde magic table -Ancestral Guardian -agury and clairvoyance at level 10 Sure they're all given by different subclasses but that allows them to be inserted in a lot of different party compositions.
About a month or so ago, I played Pathfinder WotR and all of the classes have a kind of radial chart showing their power in different categories and this series made me immediately think of that wheel
A huge part of the satisfaction of playing a utility character is shocking the party by having the exact clutch solution to whatever problem happens to arise. “You can do what?”
“Wait, you can just come back up after that 1 death save, not have to suffocate in this water we are fighting the Kracken in, not have to deal with your decapitated arm and legs, and you regained some hp during that desperate time??? Bro, Undying Warlock is so good!!!”
In my current campaign, my Barbarian has a criminal background, which lets me pick locks as well as smash doors open, but that's about the only utility it has. I comes in handy some since we don't have a rogue, and leads to funny moments when my lockpicking fails and I say that I got it unlocked and proceed to smash the door open anyway.
Basically, Conan the Barbarian. He was good at stealth. He killed the huge snake that way. Then he snuck in to rescue the Princess. Then he snuck into the Temple at the end of the movie to confront Thulsa Doom
10:06 this amazing passion and this beautiful motivation when Monty talks about chocolate. I have never seen someone talk with so much love and passion about another subject than D&D who enjoys D&D so much. You really can see the sparkling in Monty's eyes upon talking about chocolate cake.
My biggest problem with the wizard is that when I play one, I always find myself wishing I had done my daily spells differently. "Hey, um, guys... Anyone feeling sleepy? If I take a long rest, we can do this thing ..."
Yeah, that's why I prefer the non-prep magic users: I have the spells that I have, and there's no point second-guessing in the middle of the adventuring day.
That problem is pretty much solved entirely once your wizard learns Contingency if you're clever enough. It's completely solved once you learn Wish lol.
I'm playing as part of a party with a wizard (who has a few levels of artificer), a bard, *and* a druid. We'd be unstoppable if we didn't have a long record of making everything more difficult for ourselves.
@@IkaikaArnado Those are usually the most fun campaigns. No group is so mechanically balanced that roleplaying can't break everything in all the best ways.
My favourite trait of Monty's is that he always gets even more invigorated and enthused whenever Kelly disagrees with him. To value discussion above being right!
Blind prediction before watching: bard, it has to be bard. They get expertise and automatic half proficiency in everything. On top of that, any argument made in favor of another caster on the basis of spells also applies to the bard because of magical secrets.
I knew theyd go Wizard, but I agree its Bard until the wizard is mid/high tier level and needs a game world where they have access to spells to scribe besides thier 2/level. i thought they would downplay wildshape, but they did good by Druid.
As a lvl 11 Shepard druid I’ve been able to do so much for my party: summoning, battlefield control, help with travel, scouting, infiltration healing etc. definitely an A+ depending on the campaign.
Playing a shepherd druid in Frostmaiden was awesome, nailing those survival checks, scouting, summoning, talking to ALL the animals! Absolutely incredible at solving just about any situation
I kinda disagree with your method of only giving out a single S-Ranking. Bard has a good case for being just at good at Utility if not better, depending on what exactly you consider to be Utility. This ranking, there should've been two S-Rankings and I feel like you are kinda compromising the value and accuracy of your grades by fixating on keeping it to one single S-Rank.
@@ElJefeRules I mean especially if you want to show what each class is good at. I can't think of any S class role that the barbarian could fulfill that well to deserve an S-rank other than frontliner.
I completely disagree. Keeping it to one S prevents everything slightly good from being OP mega S tier that you see in tier lists of all genres. A is still what they consider nearly perfect but having a single S allows you to see what they think is the golden child of said tier list. I wish more people would adopt this style.
@@JinJinJinJinJinJinJinJinJinJin Druids certainly can. Not only do Druids get a greater variety of magic (buff, debuff, healing, AoE damage, battlefield control, defensive pre-casts, utility, summoning) vs Wizard (battlefield control, utility, AoE damage, single-target damage) they also get Wildshape which by itself gives them the equivalent of half a dozen wizard spells all at once (without requiring any spell preparation) : Blindsight (See Invisibility), Flight (Fly), Fast Movement (Expedition Retreat), lifting heavy things (Levitate), breaking open doors (Knock), Wild Companion (Find Familiar), Become something unnoteworthy (Invisibility), Climbing up walls (Spider Climb), Changing Size (Enlarge/Reduce), Grappling Attacks (Earthen Grasp).
@@JinJinJinJinJinJinJinJinJinJin Man I wish there was a class that could basically do everything skill really well, have decent spellcasting, and um yeah have access to every spell in the game. Oh wait thats a bard.
Monty doesn't understand Artificer, and it shows sometimes. He's absolutely right, being a half caster does make artificer inherently less capable than full casters, but they have an amazing spell list for utility, can hand out magic items when needed, provide boosts to saving throws or ability checks, they have guidance, and at level 11 they can literally hand out a spell to their allies that can be used up to 10 times A DAY. they are absolutely not better than wizards, bards, or druids but they still deserve a solid A rank (bard and druid should be S but I guess they're doing a thing so whatever).
Another case is that they can have more magic items attuned as-well. That could be significant depending on how common magic items are in the campaign.
I actually agree with this. Also a big part of artificer that is overlooked is their magical multi tool from Tasha's. I know they were considering magic items, but as a common item that they can build for 25gp themselves, it allows the choice of any cantrip to be cast for the day and as an action can become any tool kit and grants proficiency with it. On top of that you have expertise in any tool kit your proficient with. Being able to use any tool kit in the game with a minimum +10 to the roll (+15 with advantage of you use enhance ability and flash of genius) has allowed me to do a crazy amount of things with my battlesmith in our party. The same is true for the magical tinkering ability.
The artificer's ability to scribe scrolls of spells from any class, and use any scrolls, makes it possible for an artificer to pass as nearly any other type of spellcaster if they prep to do so. They can use those scribed scrolls to create Blasting Rods or Wands of limited capacity to enhance their abilities, too.
My thoughts on Bard. I have played a Creation Bard, the bard whose whole shtick is utility. It performed utility amazingly, and did things no other build could. But I'll be damned if I didn't look at my spells and wish I was a Wizard.
I'm playing one right now, and the big, BIG thing creation bard has over Wizard is they can use spells that 'consume' their reagents like Heroes Feast, Greater Resto, Raise Dead, ext... with wild abandon since at 14 they can make anything that can be used as a spell component. Pre 14, they can use greater resto for free. Also at 14, Creation Bard can summon a huge block of gunpowder or lava for an attack that does almost as much as a meteor swarm in non magical damage, for the cost of a 2nd level spell slot....
Point to consider: Charisma is a much more frequently used utility stat than Intelligence. If you consider spells only, Wizard wins. If you consider everything, I think Bards are an even match.
A wizard can be immortal (clone), have several simulacrums, multiple demiplanes with dozens of bound elementals/fiends he can unleash, and with wish, can duplicate any spell of 8th lvl or lower without needing components, (admittedly this is at lvl 17 so 3 lvls higher than the Creation bard). Plus they can do all the other stuff like counterspell, forcecage, banishment, fireball, glyph of warding (for crazy base defence) etc. A bard can also do some of these things via magical secrets, but a Wizard doesn't need to pick and choose, they can do all of these things. Hence why agree with the ratings, but it is very close for sure.
@@Miggy19779 At high levels sure, I don’t think anyone questions the utility of a 20th level wizard. (BTW, Bard with wish magical secret essentially gets every spell you named). But at level 4, a Bard almost definitely has at least +8 at Persuasion or Deception (or both) and +10 at level 5 at no resource cost. And at level 5 is giving out bardic inspiration 4-5 times per short rest. A level 12+ wizard probably offers more utility than a level 12+ bard, but it is close. A level 3-8 bard offers more utility than a wizard, and I’m not sure it is that close unless the DM hands out ritual spells like candy.
@@reedsmith8975 I agree that the two classes overtake one another at certain levels, but even a lvl 4 wizard if they choose, they can get skill expert feat + enhanced ability and suddenly they are REALLY good at one skill they picked, or just borrowed knowledge+ enhance ability to be good at any skill they choose, so although still behind a Bard if they choose a Cha skill, they are not so far behind for other skills depending on stat allocation. The wizard still gets all the other amazing spells like shield, absorb elements, fireball, counterspell, wall of force, etc, which a bard is limited via magical secrets. I just find that there's too many spells I miss as a Bard, and magical secrets just isn't enough even as a lore bard to grab everything that I would want. But certainly I'm going to agree it's very very close, before I saw the video I thought it would be either Bard or Wiz for sure.
Wizards are great at utility, especially when they're being used "strategically". Unfortunately players rarely play like this. Usually it's getting fireball as fast as possible and hoping that party's tanks will hold the line
I'm playing a LVL 7 divination wizard atm, and my only damage spells are ray of Frost and chromatic Orb. Everything else is utility. I do wish I had some aoe dmg, but I love having a utility spell for most every situation!
I see this as twofold as strategic wizards are often really fun in play when they aren't in combat. But rarley are fun for the dm should they continuously have encounters fall flat just from one player as it also makes the other players potential feel left out. So part of me wishes all wizards could be both fun and explosive while maniacly laughing while smart without killing the vibe for the party.
I used to use fireball, but now my wizard is using lightning bolt, due to the fact he has a highly reworked staff of magi that can cast lightning bolt at level 7, and the lack of immunity to lightning.
If you get a warlock with pact of the tome and he knows every ritual, he is really good at utility. Water breathing, tiny hut, water walk, telepathic bond, augury, purify food and drink, find familiar, floating disc, unseen servant, all as rituals so limited spell slots aren't a factor and they are always prepared.
@@stevenyoung9738 Right, but it would be pretty difficult to get a 20 in all stats, but not too difficult to get all the rituals. At least all the best ones.
Exception that proves the rule for Fighter: We had an Echo knight in our party and they can manifest their echo (like aspectral person or something) and the important thing is they can swap places. We encountered a small window and we needed to scout the place before we opened the gate. And the fighter made the echo on the other side of that window, swapped places and waved us and went exploring.
It is not. Every character, even the barbarian can do the same with picking the feat ritual caster and picking the wizard class list for it. The only requirement is having Int or wisdom at 13
@@edwinvermeulen8187 feats aren’t free. Those stat minimums require thoughtful investment that will have an impact on success in what ever class you choose that isn’t already oriented toward having one of those stats rewarded by the class features. A feat also requires an ASI or a racial choice that grants a feat at 1st level. The earlier you pick the feat the more impact it should have over your characters career, but something to keep in mind is that actual ritual casters have control of the spells they prepare or have access to. The feat allows for a couple of picks but requires significant DM intervention to be rewarded appropriately by giving access to additional spells.
@@binolombardi DM intervention? It works very much like wizard version. As long as you find a spell on a scroll or buy it from other wizards, you can get it. Ritual Caster feat with wizard spell list is like getting almost half of wizard added to your class utility wise. Remember that Wizards also need to find most of these spells other then few free ones they get with levels (from which they also need to pick their combat spells that might be even more rare then utility ones). So don't underestimate this feat.
@@Mithguar the wizard gains more spells as it levels up than it will be able to prepare, so if the DM doesn’t hand out spells then there’s not much of an issue. If a player selects ritual caster as a feat and the DM doesn’t hand out spells, they don’t get any more spells.
The unique part is that it is a base class feature with no opportunity cost. Tomelocks get a broader selection of rituals but have to give up spicey weapons, magical talismans, or fancy familiars to get them.
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Fun fact! The Ancestral Guardian barbarian can cast augury and clairvoyance so that's a thing. One of my fellow players in a campaign I'm playing in didn't know that until I told them, and they were way beyond the level they got it. When I told them their reaction was basically "Why would I ever use that?". So...yeah. Some Barbarians have a few weird subclass abilities that feel like a sad attempt to force utility onto a class that doesn't need it.
@@joedan5366 True the flavor of it is fitting. I like that they mention that if someone can see your Clairvoyance it appears as a spirit instead of just an orb.
A thing I see people overlook with the wizard too is that they can copy spells into their spell book as they're adventuring. It costs time and money, especially high level spells, and depends on what spell scrolls and loot your DM gives out, but getting more spells you can choose from to prepare that don't count against your number of spells known is a great class feature for a spellcaster
On paper the wizard is S. In game its very dependent on access to spells. Some DMs are very tight fisted with spells scrolls or books. Sometimes the two spells you get on leveling up is all you can count on.
@@brningpyre I'd say that in that case the Druid takes the winning spot. If a Wizard can only rely on level-up spells, they are probably still picking the good battlefield control but they may be missing other forms of utility that Druids either just get from Wild Shape or can prepare after a long rest. Stuff like Spider Climb, Fly, Water Breathing etc.
They know this. They’re good content creators, so they tell you the Bard is S Tier, but “mah rules”, which creates “mah conflict” (aka engagement). Hence, we’re talking about it.
Wizard definitely deserves the S ranking. Not only is their spell list the most expansive and they get the most casts out of anyone with Arcane Recovery, the sheer number of spells they learn outweighs anything. If a Bard wants to take Comprehend Languages, they have to weigh it against every other spell they can take at that level, an issue which is further exacerbated if they need to take a spell not on their list like Fabricate or Alarm. If a Wizard wants to take Comprehend Languages, they can get it as one of six 1st level spells they get at level 1, and they'll get another two spells every time they level up from there. Even in a campaign where there's absolutely no chance to add spells to your spellbook without leveling, Wizards get more spells overall from a more expansive list, barring Magical Secrets. Bard is still an amazing utility generalist class of course, but like... Wizards can have a solution for basically anything in their spellbook. It might not always be the best solution, and someone else might be able to do it better, but the only situation where a Wizard can't do something effective about the problem in front of them is if they're separated from their spellbook. Edit: It's a point in the Bard's favor that they don't need to prepare spells like the Wizard does and they always have access to their entire spell list, but many of the best utility/problem solving spells are rituals they don't need to prepare to cast. The ones I listed above (except Fabricate), plus Detect Magic, Identify, Find Familiar, Augury, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing...
Gonna balance out the comments bc it's mostly going to be filled with ppl who disagree w u guys. Like a lot of the commenters, I too thought S would go to bard, but then when you didn't and instead gave it too Wizard, i went, "yeah, that actually does make sense". And really, depending on the build and the campaign, you really can argue for either one. Monty explained it pretty well: bards are better with skills, wizards are better at spell flexibility.
This makes me really want to build a clockwork soul sorcerer with the ritual caster feat. All the benefits of sorcerer metamagic with the best wizard spells and the ritual casting to boot.
8:24 my firbolg bear totem barbarian avoids violence and loves talking to plants and animals and lifting heavy things for the party, he also used a special chain weapon that can trip enemies and entangle tem to make it easier for his fellow party members to hit them. I'd say its a lot of fun to aim towards a more utility-focused skill set as a barbarian, even if its not the MOST effective.
I haven't watched the entire video, but i see where this is going, with Wizards getting the S tier. I gotta say, i absolutely disagree. Wizards have the best spell list, bar none, but that's it. They are not skill monkeys, they are not social savants, they have no special abilities or expanded tool proficiencies, and they are completely useless in anything physical. If they don't have the right spell at the right time, they might as well be a burden rather than an asset, when it comes to utility. Poor ranking, sorry dudes.
But they can be social savants and skill monkeys if they want. Skill expert feat+enhance ability (added to their spell list from tasha's cauldron of everything)=crazy skill rank in a skill or two they can specialise in, and even if they are not skilled, cast borrowed knowledge to gain the skill prof for 1 hour+enhance ability and now they can be really good at it. They can have as many spells in their spellbooks as they like, with only money as a limiting factor (and scribing is cheap),and a long rest between them switching focus of spells entirely if their current selection is inappropriate. Totally deserved S rank.
@@Miggy19779 Anyone can take skill expert, a fighter or a rogue can take it several times more than a wizard, does that make them better at utility? The rest is just you agreeing with what i said, that they have spells but nothing else, and they are not even the only ones who can take spells. A bard can be a monster in utility with no feats, and without being dependent on gold or their DM giving him spell scrolls to copy, they can also bolster themselves or anyone else with bardic inspiration. Rogues have reliable talent, which the DD's ignored entirely, even though it's one of the most powerful skill monkey features in the entire game, virtually guaranteeing success on the vast majority of checks the rogue is proficient in. The DD's overvalue spellcasters, it's nothing new and it's not even a rare position to hold within the 5e community.
@@eran5005 I was just replying to your mention of 'skill monkeys' and 'social savants' comment, I personally rate both of these things low in the utility scale, but you seemed to rate them highly so I was just showing how these can be easy to achieve a very high level of competency by the wizard. As mentioned, I rate these things low in the utility scale, instead finding that spells are way more powerful. After all, what do skills matter if I can be really good at any skill I want with just two 2nd level spells and maybe a feat?
@@Miggy19779 But bards can also take spells (and also the ritual caster: Wizard, feat, but that's beside the point, cause i'm talking base class, no feats) and they are also skill monkeys without any spells (and feats) PLUS they have bardic inspiration that they can give themselves or someone else (in addition to everything else mentioned, not either or). If you consider them low, that's a personal preference, which isn't reflective of how the game is structured in it's core. What i'm saying is, bard can do 90% of what the wizard can do with spells, plus a lot more stuff without spells the wizard can't do at all.
@@eran5005 Only thing the wizard cannot do is bardic inspiration, which is a support ability not a problem solving (Utility) ability. They can get prof+adv with any skill they might need, they can heal and raise dead (via planar binding couatl or autumn eladrin or other celestials), they can scout with arcane eye/clairvoyance/scrying, and anything else that may be needed with access to the best spell list in the game. And with 8 hours they can switch to a different role entirely. And most people in the poll voted Wizard so they agree with me on that including the Dungeon dudes. In the end, I always look at the Bard spell list and get annoyed at not having the spells I want in the end.
I think there are two main flaws with this whole process: 1. Treating battlefield control as part of utility is a mistake. Controller should be its own role for the purpose of this tier ranking. Utility should be reserved for non-combat problem solving. 2. I think for all of this role-based tier ranking stuff, the "regardless of subclass" requirement is gonna hold you back from showing off some of the best options in the game, especially in base classes specifically designed for versatility. Yes, hexblade warlock built for melee is going to lack utility options, but any Tome warlock is one invocation away from getting access to every ritual spell in the game, which along with their large cantrip selection, makes them a walking swiss army knife of problem solving.
Before this started, I KNEW you were going for Wizard. Yes, ritual casting and a huge spell selection is great. Now get them to climb a wall or open a door without the right spell. Ask them to participate in melee, or engage socially. Can they heal? No? Bards can. They can do all of that. I play a Tiefling Sword Bard, and you'll be hard pressed to put him in a situation he can't solve. There are times the right spell isn't there. There are some times you have to rely on more than a scroll. Bards can. Wizards can't. Fact. Place a wizard in the back and give them time to perform a ritual and there's little they can't do. But you can't ask an artillery piece to scout. You can't ask it to negotiate. Remove spells and wizards are a guy in a dress.
But the problem is that you're removing what makes a Wizard a Wizard. Remove yeast from bread and you only have grain. Wizards don't need to communicate well; they can trick others to think whatever they want, force others to do whatever they want, or know exactly what others are thinking or doing. Convincing others is a form of manipulation, and in terms of manipulation, people's brains are like putty in a wizard's hand. Wizards don't need to climb a wall. They can levitate above it, fly over it, teleport on top of it, go through it, burrow under it, or any other manner of egress, and if they really needed to climb it, that wouldn't be a problem either with magic. Wizards can absolutely participate in melee with the right build, and if they wanted to, they could just do so regardless at higher levels. There's a fifth-or-sixth-level spell that turns a Wizard into a capable frontliner, and they can magically give themselves powerful weaponry and enough protection to avoid getting hit at lower levels. The point though is that they don't have to do any of that. They don't need to convince people to behave how they want, engage in physical activity or melee, or anything. There are spells for all of that.
And Wizards are the best at scouting, and have limited but not nonexistent healing capabilities. They don't need to worry about healing much though, as they can possess another body, create a new body, stop the damage from ever occurring, prevent the encounter from ever occurring, create a real or illusory copy of themselves or others, convince an entire angry mob to go home or a crowd to turn into an angry mob, remove the threat entirely, or, again, protect themselves or others.
"Can they?" is not the right question, even though the answer is invariably yes. The right question is "Do they even have to?" That is what separates an S from an A. There are only a select few things that other characters can do that a Wizard cannot. Wizards cannot revive a long-dead person from a bone, but they can talk to that person, visit them in the afterlife, raise them as an undead, or create a new body for their soul to inhabit. Wizards cannot create sustenance out of thin air, but they can find sustenance or convince others to give them sustenance. Wizards cannot see through magical darkness, but they can find their way through it. Wizards cannot sanctify an area or bless it with a holy ritual, but they can remove all threats from that area and magically protect it. Wizards can go ahead and do all that anyways eventually with Wish, and whatever they cannot do, they have a way around. Brute forcing something is only necessary if you cannot manipulate it, and there is nobody, nothing, and nowhere a Wizard cannot manipulate to fit their needs.
And not having the right spell at the right time is completely solved by a clever Wizard with Contingency. If they don't have the right spell, they can also manipulate the situation until they do have the right spell. Rome wasn't built in a day, and a clever, prepared Wizard can lap a Bard who is improvising.
Wizards is the best utility class if you can afford the investment and you are in a campaign that you can actually find new spells. In a low investment scenario, a bard would be better I think
Massive disagree on warlock. Their pact boons and invocations give them so many utility options that it’s insane. Tome gives you any cantrips or ritual spells you might need. Chain gives you a more powerful familiar that is better at scouting than any other. Talisman lets your party better succeed on skill checks, which could in theory fall under support but supporting utility. Eyes of the Rune Keeper, so many “spell at will” invocations, and much more lend to a fantastic interaction utility character, even if their battlefield control options aren’t as fantastic. Even then, you’ve got several subclasses that provide control options, like Archfey, Fathomless, and Genie. I say they’re A, and a pretty good A. Above rogue but below druid and bard
Warlock got absolutely snubbed. Pact of Tome brings Warlock up to having the most cantrips of any straight-classed character from levels 3-20, and they can rip some of them from any list(s) they want. And they often only need to use one or two cantrip slots on attacks (EB + a melee option), committing the rest to utility. Minor Illusion, Guidance, Mold Earth, Shape Water etc. Book of Ancient Secrets makes the Warlock the best ritual caster in the game. Better than Wizards. Your eligible ritual list is /every/ ritual in the game. Speak with Animals and Commune with Nature from Druid; Telepathic Bond, Find Familiar, Tiny Hut from Wizard; Forbidance from Cleric. And you're not eating pact slots to ritual cast. Even if you don't take Pact of Tome, Pact of Chain gives an invisible, flying familiar! Invocations swap out as you level. As the plot develops you can choose what matters most in the campaign similarly to the bard. Exploring impossibly ancient ruins? Detect magic at will and read all writing including that language lost to time. Investigating the murky depths in the bay? See in magical darkness and breathe underwater (and don't worry about someone dispelling it when you get down there). And!!! You just said yourself illusion magic is nearly the definition of utility! Disguise self, Invisibility, SILENT IMAGE, at will! Pick a patron to expand your spell options. Want illusion spells? Archfey. No cleric in the party? Celestial. Not sure? Genie. Most patrons will at least help utility a little. I would still put several classes ahead of them overall; but there is simply no way for a sorcerer built for utility to keep up with a warlock built for utility. Even for their large number of cantrips, they have less options and less total vs. Pact of Tome. And when they start burning good spell slots on utility functions instead of big control/blast spells and substitute Fire Bolt in combat their DPR contribution falls off a cliff, where as in comparison the warlock can lean on Agonizing Blasts and be fine with a 1 cantrip, 1 invocation investment. When you can perform your utility at will, sorcerer's greater pool of spells/day is moot.
Completely agree. To the point where I'd rank tome warlock seperate from all others. Non-tome warlocks are like mid c to low b, tome warlocks are a to s tier.
@@jpptgaiv i disagree with that. 3 out of 4 pact boons are utility options (you know about tome, but chain gives you a familiar with more options, and talisman gives you skill bonuses you can pass around with more options through invocations. blade is the only one without utility uses). and invocations like mask of many faces, and so many other "Cast X at will" invocations, that all warlocks can grab, boost all warlocks to at least a B+
the Artificer presents an interesting problem. I understand wanting to give it an A, but if you are doing an A for druids and bards, artificer is no where near the same. I think I would have to give it a B overall and say there are A tier options if you focus.
@@AwesomeWookiee I love artificers but was still expecting bard or wizard to be S. They are exceptionally good at utility but if they were a full caster that would probably make them S tier, even above the Wizard.
The problem with the artificer is that more than most, possibly any, other classes its subclasses have huge differences. There are Rogues and Fighters more like bards and paladins than the alchemist is like the battle smith.
Bard is my personal S pick, but I also think they are undervaluing Warlock a bit. The low number of spell slots certainly hurts, but several invocations are things like "You can cast X spell at will without using a spell slot" which is really strong. Plus, since Eldritch Blast is such a strong blaster cantrip and all leveled spells are upcast based on the level of the Warlock, it makes a lot of sense to build a Warlock where Eldritch Blast is the primary go-to damage spell, keep maybe a big AoE and a larger blasting spell in the back pocket for groups and burst, and then primarily focus spell choices on scaling utility spells and save the spell slots for those. Things like summon spells, fly, counterspell/dispel magic, hold person, etc. And that's not counting Book of Ancient Secrets for Tome Warlocks, which gives them ritual casting and the ability to learn every ritual spell in the game, regardless of class, and cast them as rituals.
With my warlocks I only take Eldritch Blast and one other combat spell at most, and that's either Hunger of Hadar or Evard's Black Tentacles. For the rest, it's all utility and maybe some support depending on my patron
@@maid_of_heart3261 I only just started a blaster warlock in a recent game, and I'm definitely digging it, but I'm definitely missing all my old utility spells
Blind prediction before watching: I had a hard time choosing between Bard and Wizard as the S tier, but decided on Wizard. Give a Wizard any amount of heads up and they can *tailor* their spells to fit the situation. Don't give them any heads up and not much changes as their spells are many and varied. A good Wizard is prepared for just about anything save a DM smite tor being a smarmy jerk lol.
Warlock can be amazing as a utility caster, because they can cast a utility spell without wasting a spell slot, because they can just short rest after. You don’t even need to think about a wasted resource as warlock, while other classes do. Warlock also has too many utility Invocations to ignore. Wizard can also do this, because they can use arcane recovery to regain spell slots. Nobody talks about arcane recovery, but it can make the wizard steal some of the warlocks ability!!!
I feel like this is ez bard, face of the party, profficiency in almost every skill at once if you want and Jack of all trades, inspiration is the core mechanic and is the definition of utility. And a full caster. The gap from bard to 2nd place is big imo. I strongly disagree with the definition of utility if Wizard is an S. Debuffer/controller is very different from utility.
Wizard can get amazingly good in any skill too, it is called borrowed knowledge, a 2nd lvl spell, and enhance ability, another 2nd lvl spell and suddenly you are proficient and gain advantage on all rolls on that skill. And if you REALLY have a hard-on for a skill, skill expert feat + enhance ability spell and now you are a top tier skill guy. But this is a tiny amount of what the Wizard brings: demiplanes full of planar bound fiends/elementals he can unleash (admittedly a high lvl spell), immortality (clone), simulacra, whilst still doing all the other crazy stuff like counterspell, banishment, fireball, glyph of warding. Heal spell, greater restoration, raise dead? A Wizard can do all of this by planar binding an Autumn Eladrin (MToF), who needs clerics? Bard can do many of those things with magical secrets, but a Wizard can do them all.
About warlocks: i think that the potential to learn ALL the ritual spells in the game is a strong case for the warlock, they are potentiallu the best ritual caster in the game
Think the dudes really evaluated warlock incorrectly, its at least worthy of an A. Completely glossing over the utility present in the invocations list is a HUGE miss. Just at low level here - free speak with animals, access to every ritual by the same ruleset as wizards if you take book of ancient secrets makes it just better than wizard in that regard, seeing magical darkness for puzzles or maybe casting other utility spells in that space, free detect magic without ritual casting because time may be important, reading all writing to translate for the party, eldritch blast being able to push/pull, free disguise self, free silent image and thats just invocations with no level requirement lol. You may think that since warlocks have to choose pact of the tome or choose certain spells to have greater utility that kind of disqualifies them, but its the same choices a sorcerer makes with their metamagic picks, and the same choice a wizard makes to add additional spells into their spell book. Everything has a cost here so you can't just throw the Warlocks choices out the window. Warlocks have access to better ritual casting than the wizard, upcast for free (not always relevant), wont blast very often since blasting is usually terrible when you have 2/3/maybe 4 spell slots per short rest, and have access to tons of personal and team utility through invocations. Wizards do beat them on the sheer amount and variety of spells they can normally cast, but warlocks do not have to expend their spell slot resources for a heavy majority of the utility they provide.
Once again, we see the problem with "half casters" in 5e: their spellcasting (past level 1) is really only useful to supplement their martial abilities, or to provide some emergency backup healing/utility if the full casters are down/depleted.
i dont thinkk its a problem, its inherant in the design concept, you dont get to be grerat in melee combat AND in spell use.. and when you arent great at eithe rone, well, it shows and you feel underpowered
When you mixed warlocks with sorcerers in this videoyou really missed out on actually talking about Warlock utility. In any situation where you are taking a short rest anyways, which is pretty common in utility situations, that spell slot is free. Combo that with invocations like mask of many faces, misty visions, repelling blast in combat, and either the pact of the chain familiar or pact of the tome’s Book of ancient secrets (access to every ritual spell of every class in the game!) High B tier utility at minimum, even without considering subclass.
Yeah, glossing over the utility of invocations was a definite miss. Misty visions alone is an awesome illusion spell you can use as basically a cantrip. Eldritch sight is super broken for any campaign that isnt oversaturated in magic. Eyes of the runekeeper means any puzzle involving multiple languages is now way easier, not to mention any campaigns that cross into foreign lands. Ascendant step lets you levitate at level 9. Higher level campaigns can get even more things like free invisibility with Shroud of Shadow or passively seeing true forms with Witch Sight(so no surprise polymorphed dragons or demons). And then just about any mod to Eldritch blast just helps with battle map control, either pushing the enemy away, pulling them in range of other players or a trap, or just slowing them down so everyone can get away.
They didn’t mention this either but the flip side of ‘warlocks don’t cast many spells’ is that they get so many more spell options per spells cast. So picking up a niche utility spell is more tolerable for a warlock as they’re not exactly hurting for more spell options to cast with their two spell slots
I have a problem with this entire series. I just don’t see the utility. With subclasses there are so many exceptions that saying a class is best at something comes with too many caveats to be useful.
Playing wizard for a couple years know, wow yeah, great utility! I may not bring much dps to the table, that’s the rest of the party’s job, but I do provide spells like rarys and water breathing like you two mentioned, I’m the party’s personal guide to Fearun with all the teleporting around. A few spells for getting past obstacles, protecting the party or dispelling magic, an a handful for debilitating stuff like flesh to stone. Not having to prepare ritual spells is my favorite part. Only downside is just how overwhelming it can be. My next character will likely be a barbarian Edit: weird how many people are upset by Bard’s placement. A++ isn’t enough?
You guys were a little harsh on the fighter I think, the Echo Knight gives a whole slew of exploration and social skills just by existing, and even the purple dragon knight gets expertise in persuasion lol, maybe D is fair but it could push C if you're optimistic
Make no mistake, my Wizard is a damage dealer, but I also go with as many utilitarian spells as I can, especially ritual ones like water breathing and Tiny Hut. I told my DM that I have tea with my party every morning, this applies the water breathing automagically. My party pays me for the mats and I keep Identify rituals at the ready. Cant wait to get Control Water and then have the option to drown and entire room of enemies while we sit back and laugh...lol.
I feel like there wasn't enough conversation about what the warlock can bring to the table with invocations because the warlock's utility shouldn't come from it's normal spell list because you don't have enough slots to be helpful reliably. No, their utility should come from all the spells and unique abilities their invocations allow them to do at will.
I think their approach was to attempt to look just at spell lists and base class features with no tuning.... but....they went out of their way with sorcerer/metamagic to show how you could tune them for utility while ignoring a similar approach for invocations. Still awesome entertainment...maybe they left this gap to keep us chatting here...idk
@@sydorovich2532 I don't really want to dispute that. My point is more along the line of suggesting empowered spell isn't utility anymore than agonizing blast is so ...there is an opportunity cost to utility metamagic just as there is with any utility invocation.
@@sydorovich2532 is it though? Most metamagic is pretty combat oriented and sure you get access to some nice battlefield control options with twin spells but what else really? subtle spell and distant spell are the only ones I can think of being reliable utility boosting options even then though your use of metamagic is limited by your sorcery points and spell slots so you may not want or have the option to use it all the time. Compare that to things like the ability to read all text, detect magic at will, alter or disguise self at will, speak with dead at will, speak with animals at will, silent image at will, turning invisible at will (in dim light or darkness but still) the ability to see in darkness magical or otherwise, the ability to see through shape shifted creatures and creatures disguised by illusion and transmutation automatically or even just access to ritual casting. I skipped over quite a few of them still I think I got a lot of the most interesting options. Warlock is a much stronger utility character than people give it credit for I think.
I desperately need advice. My players have successfully feeble minded my BBEG and even his contingency (dispell magic) won't work. What should I do besides be proud/angry of my players.
I feel like Clerics and Druids are inherently A just by the virtue of being prepared casters Also, if we go by optimisers rules, we can't say that wizard has all the spells money can buy because it's DM's fiat and is unreliable. I still agree on the S ranking since a lot of good utility spells are rituals and wizards don't need to prepare them. Just to have them in a book.
You started out talking about "best utility class", but as you were wrapping up the Fighter, I realized that you're focusing on utility in combat... "battlefield utility" is the term you used repeatedly throughout the video. Then you swung back to talking about skills, then battle field... in the end, I wasn't sure if either of you had a clear goal in mind, as you were taking about either topic consistently.
As a Paladin, I've gotten a lot of mileage in...curse of Strahd. Divine Sense is really a neat ability but it could do with being a tad more broad. Scanning for consecrated/desecrated things and hidden undead has been fun though. A few of their spells are also very handy, although they don't often have the slots or preparations to have those utility items available in a day. I managed to give some spirits a send off with Ceremony as well as officiate a wedding. It's such a fun spell to use just to be a priest and do various story events that I wish Paladin was a ritual caster. Zone of Truth has a lot of interrogation/legal setting uses.
Divine Sense utility runs out when you need to find something that isn't literally a skeleton in a closet xD. You know, because it can't detects anything that is behind slightly thicker stone wall like the ones you would expect in, let's say, a tomb. It's range is also as long as average darkvision of a character. So combined with limitation of detecting things behind somewhat thicker objects, If you can't see it, Divine Sense won't see it either ;D That ability is so niche it's sad.
how to make a warlock great at utility and.. not useless at combat: Eldrich blast + agonizing blast. Every other spell, every spellslot, every other invocation => utility.
@@intoHeck1964 yeah, though you swapped con and cha, dex con and wis saves are the absolute strongest saves and having 2 of those saves is massive, dex for damage, con against stunned poisoned and the like, and wis against almost all mind intruding spells.
@@katarhall3047 Then if someone was specced into either wisdom or dex, why would they not choose to just start as monk then, multiclass out and never in again?
I think warlocks with pact of the tome and book of shadows are like easily A. All rituals? That's better than the wizard but obviously just one subclass... oh wait, invisible familiar someone said?
This definitely shows the Rogue’s absurdly good skill set. Monty and Kelly average out the Rogue as B+/ A-, and the other two classes with limited/ nonexistent spell casting, the Barbarian and Fighter, are both listed as D.
I think Warlock is hugely underrated for utility. I agree that it isnt core to every Warlock so you couldnt call them top tier, but I think discussion does them a bit dirty by not looking at the utility that you can build towards. A class that can know and cast *every* ritual spell in the game regardless of class list? They can pick up a significant number of utility spells as At Will abilities. And they can grab a number of unique utilities that arent really available to others - want to permanently see through magical darkness? See through shapechanges and any illusion or transmutation disguises?
I knew they would pick wizard, but I was really hopin for the Druid to secure that S tier. Wildshape is just so much utility at every level of play that even without their spell list they should score high on the list.
Honestly I can`t see bards being better than them either. Druids and Wizards bring very comparable things to the table and being able to change your spells everyday is a big deal.
While Druids are strong with utility I don't see them beating Bards. They don't have anywhere near the skill versatility, and the spells Bards can choose out preform what Wildshapes can do, though I would put them above Artificers since they're full casters
@@Nickelback8469 Prove it, which Bard spells out perform Wildshape on utility tasks? I'll grant you Bard's have great skills, but it somewhat depends how you classify tasks, if social interaction is classed under Utility then yes, Bard is amazing and potentially the top of all the classes, but if it is considered a separate thing then Bards aren't nearly as good. IMO social interaction generally should be classed under utility because the ability to convince someone with the information you need to share it with you can substitute for a lot of other skills/spells: e.g. a wizard can go to the library and research a monster or lore behind your next quest, or a bard can go to the library flirt with the librarian and get the librarian to do the research and simply tell the party the info they need to know. e.g. a druid can carefully track the footprints of an assassin back to their base, or a bard can go hang out at a shady bar and chat up some members of the assassin's guild and convince them to invite the party to join them.
@@agilemind6241 due to magical secrets, any spell in the game. Flight, Disguise Self, Charm Person, Invisibility, Dimension Door, and a lot of these spells are better enablers for the rest of the party as well. And with a single feat in Ritual Caster, the Bard’s flexibility skyrockets. Though not everything, I do also consider face skills to count towards utility, and it’s more reason for why I’d place Bard over Wizard in this category.
This is a good, but I think your definition of utility simultaneously nebulous and narrow. I think the Bard should be the winner, and I would challenge the idea that the best skill monkey is the rogue, rather I think that's a lore bard.
I feel like Lore Bard is the best utility bard, especially at 6th level when they get the extra magical secrets to fill in any utility spells the party needs.
hello can you help me I am multiclassing into an artificer but I'm also a druid because of my backstory I'm a circle of the Moon Druid at Tenth level I need to know if I need to go lower on that so I can get better for the artificer
I get wizards as the S-tier, but take away their spellcasting focus or drop an anti-magic zone, and they suddenly get passed up by the barbarian and everyone else. I feel like utility needs to be dependable in just about every situation. That's why I voted for the rogue. Reliable Talent, Expertise, and the feature you'll never actually use: Stroke of Luck. Rogues are going to get the job done more consistently in any situation.
"In terms of chocolaty bards..." "... the bard doesn't need to try, the bard just IS a utility character" I'm dying!🤣🤣🤣 Also, I'm pretty sure you just called the bard a tool, which makes it even better.
I was a tiny bit butt hurt Druid wasn't S. But was pleasantly pleased to hear you put them next to Bard and RIGHT there by S. And it's funny ppl don't really agree because both players haven't played one themselves or seen how incredible Druids can be.
I agree with their druid ranking. But not their bard or rogue ranking. I'm still watching the video and already know they are going to rank the wizard with the S which is sad. Yes they have the spells but they don't have the skills. Wizards and Druids are close. A/A+ range. Rogues S- and Bards S+. My idea of utility is jack of all trades. Can you heal? Support? Pass skill checks? Find solutions to almost any problem? Bard is yes yes yes. One last word on wizard. They are OP clearly the best class in D&D and honestly should be nerfed. The spell list could and probably should be cut to 2/3 in size and they still might be the best class in the game. But I still disagree with them being an S tier. So if their spell list is 99 spells it should probably be cut to 66.
@@Fairburne69 here's the thing with wizards: you don't need skill proficiencies when you just cast a spell that automatically succeeds. That's why they're S Tier.
@@MethosJK9 Pretty much. And this video is also going off each class not counting in their subclasses. Wizard has access to all its spells regardless of subclass, and even if Rogue is a B, something like Arcane Trickster would definitely be an S. However, that's why they leave out the subclasses. We'd be here all day dissecting if they did. Base rogue is accurate with their ranking, it's the subclasses that make huge differences there.
Blind comment made at 2:31 in the video the S tier is wizard because they get access to all the good spells though admittedly lacking in social encounters if there is a gripe.
My personal S tier is Druid. Wild shape for scouting or infiltration, crowd control, battlefield control, summoning, spot healing, can talk to animals. Pretty much anything you'd want.
What seals the deal for me is that Tasha's gave them a possible way to cast Find Familiar. I'm playing a wildfire druid, and I can't imagine any wizard doing as much for my party as the wildfire spirit has done on its own. And that's before considering how much wild shape and spells have done.
Except teleportation. Unless you're playing Wildfire Druid of course, but requiring a specific subclass to be the best is explicitly disqualifying from S tier. Come to think, it's be really nice to see a return of the Planar Shepherd (which was an extremely OP prestige class for Druids from Eberron in 3.5), because the expansive view of the entire multiverse as a natural ecosystem is sadly missing in this edition.
@@daysliveon Tree Stride is much more situational than basically any other teleport spell, and is a high enough spell level it's not even an option in most campaigns.
@@watcher314159 Yeah, you're right. Tree stride is pretty situational. I've seen it dominate a few encounters though. I see the argument for Wizard. Personally, I'd rather have the wildshape utility options available.
Kinda expected Druid to also hit S-tier - I had a Tortle Druid of the Land the party called the Utilitortle because I had something in the bag for basically every possible situation.
Nice video, and I agree with your conclusions. However, I believe that you should not have included battlefield control in this roles description. That, to me, is its own thing. While they may often be taken care of by the same character they are not the same role.
Wizard spell list is kookoo bananas. Need a fortress built, magically protected, physically protected, lit, guarded, accomodated, and supplied? Wizard can do that. Need to travel a foot, a mile, a plane, or a planet? Wizard can do that. Need to communicate with anyone, anywhere? Wizard can do that. Need to get into somewhere or something? Wizard can do that. Need to find something out or locate something or someone? The wizard can do that. Need to sleep or rest comfortably on the go? Wizard. Need to tie down enemies? Wizard. Need a new body? Wizard. Need to mind control someone or bend them to your will or read their emotions? Wizard. Need to boost an ability to achieve something, whether it's moving, sneaking, lifting, whatever? Wizard. Need to store something somewhere accessible but discreet? Wizard. Need to bind an elemental or demon to your will? Wizard. Need to make something or transform something? Wizard. Need a fancy weapon or protection? Wizard. Need to scout? Wizard. Need to resurrect someone from the dead? There's a wizard for that. Need to puppet the dead? There are a couple good wizards for that. Need to talk to the dead? Boom wizard. Need to confuse or distract or attract enemies? Wizard. Need to change the fabric of reality itself to your whim, cheat death, duplicate yourself, end a storm, torture someone ruthlessly, destroy an object entirely, change everyone's perception of a terrain? You'll need a damn powerful wizard, but it's doable. Need to call a dragon god through a portal into Hell, bind it for all eternity, erect a castle over it with golems keeping watch, prevent anyone from teleporting there, hide it entirely, convince Asmodeus to sell you the requisite land for a pittance (the real estate market there is cutthroat), and travel back, all before tea? You'll need a few insane wizards, but it's doable. Need to start a business selling new bodies to elderly nobles to fund your wizardly endeavors? There are some ethical dilemmas there, but that's not a problem. Have at it, you cheeky wizard.
Remember everyone these videos are the base class WITHOUT subclass. I see some of y'all saying you disagree because x subclass makes y class an S tier. They aren't factoring in subclasses, just base classes. If we were factoring in subclasses these would be wildly different, as things like Rogue would have gotten an S tier utility just for Arcane Trickster alone.
No, they are factoring in subclasses. It's just that having one subclass or build that's really good doesn't automatically give it a high rank if the other choices are meh. Since 5th edition demolished the skill system, Rogue dropped a lot in utility. They are really good at some other things though.
The biggest issue i have with this list, is that Rogues get an A, for their skill proficiency, while bards are way WAY better skill monkeys due to Jack of all trades. In Addition their Magical secrets let them pick any spell for any role that they want to do. There spell list isn't naturally nudged into any role, or conflicts when trying to do multiple roles, a wizards spell list often does. While its true that wizards can change spells on the fly, the availablity of spell scrolls, spell research, and gold to scribe spells as well as purchase the material components for some spells differer from table to table. Base line, a lvl 20 wizard has 25 spells prepared, a lvl 20 bard has 28 spells known. One feat (Ritual caster) allows you to do all the ritual stuff you do as a wizard as well, If the table is generous with spellscrolls and gold, while the wizard can't pick one feat or ability to get all of the benefits from Jack of all trades, or bardic inspiration, and having the option to choose from every other spell list as well. Wizards are good at Utility, but they are not nearly as good as bards in that role.
The thing is , bardic inspiration imho is a support role power rather than utility, so it should score towards scoring who is the best support. But jack of all trades is pointless, a wizard doesn't need it as he can just cast borrowed knowledge+enhance ability and be proficient with advantage with any skill he might need at the time. This, combined with the more expansive spell list, makes the Wizard the S tier utility. Now if they do a video on which class is best at support....
I love this new tier list series you have. This oddly enough reminds me of 4e classes and how they're structured. Are you guys familiar with 4e? I know it gets a bad rap but I really like it.
I was about to say something really snarky regarding 4e but in the middle of it I just stopped and deleted the whole comment. I cant STAND 4e myself, but I'm glad you get a lot of enjoyment from it. Happy adventuring!
I really love the flourish that 4e has. The sheer amount of abilities that you can use from lvl1 is so dam fun. Also just the mechanics of it are creative and satisfying
Hey guys, great episode! It did make me wonder about something with druids. With wild shape...our group plays druids as they cannot turn into an animal that they have not seen or interacted with. Is that incorrect? Because a level 8 giant eagle would be awesome!
Id call that a flavor issue for DMs to decide. I use a similar rule for things like exotic animals, like dinos, or ice spider, or similar. I feel like a druid knows about most normal animals that exist, and dont have to specifically RP each animal before they can use it.
I find it really strange that you guy categorized battlefield control and utility together. Often I see these as separate roles entirely (though that's not to say that they can't be covered by the same class). For me, Utility is about out of combat problem solving abilities. Information gathering skills, puzzle solving, and mobility and teleportation.
This is why i have wizard as a B class utility. I main utility as you described it and Bards are best closely followed by Artificers. Artificer Battlesmith with clan craftsman background is a beast with gadged for every occasion.
I played a barbarian in 3.5 that picked up a bunch of rogue skills as cross-class skills. It wasn't a good build, but everyone at the table enjoyed the Stealth Moose.
I played a Barbarian Rogue multiclass in Curse of Strahd. He was set up as a sort of investigator with expertise in investigation and perception (and decent rolls for intelligence and wisdom) and dealt tons of damage with guaranteed sneak attack in combat.
I've recently just finished playing a druid from 1 to 20 so I am extremely biased and I know it. The druid I played was the only full caster in a team of martials and warlocks. While I agree that wizards are the best utility casters in the game. My personal opinion is that a Druid beat everyone in term of versatility. They have access to the entirety of the druid spell list everyday and it can allow them to fulfill any role the party needs. High level wizards are scary big bads, but my personal opinion is that a high level druid is signficantly more terryifing as a big bad because you have no idea what they're going to be capable of today.
Don't worry, I know that Druids are robbed in this video. Wizards are only as good as their spell book not their spell list. A druid has all their spells whenever they want + wildshape + summoning + some of the best (if not the best) BFC in the game.
I have played both bards and wizards in 5E for years, and I cannot agree with placing the wizard higher as a utility character (unless your definition of "utility" differs from my understanding). The bard is the class built around utility and support , they simply excel in it. Their spell selection is geared towards it, they gain magical secrets, they gain the most skill proficiencies of all classes and jack of all trades to cover the gaps, they provide bardic inspiration, most of their subclasses have utility features, and so on and so forth. The wizard is an excellent class, no doubt, probably the most powerful class in the game. But in terms of utility and support, noone can hold a candle to the bard.
Agreed. The bard differs from almost every other class as they handle the full range of utility in spells. The wizard will have great utility in spells like fly, or tiny hut, but they wont be purify water or be curing diseases. The bard might not have a specific spell that the wizard has without magical secrets but they cover a wider range of utility problems with their spells and then handle even more without spells.
Utility: it's probably going to be a fight between bards, wizards and rogues. Wizards are the utility magic, rogues have the physical skills, but there's a reason why the bard is the jack of all. The problem in giving the wizard the utility role, is how people misquantify the amount of spells that wizards can prepare for a given day. With casting modifier+level that means they know 15 spells at level 10 and they have 11 in their book that they 'may' prepare for their next day. Level 10 bards have 14 spells, 16 if you include their magical secrets. And this is without mentioning their bardic inspiration and skill proficiencies/expertise. Wizards have good utility, especially if you keep a bunch of rituals in the book for everyday casting, but that alone can't just make them the S.
For me bards are the S tier its easy, Rogues are 2nd A+ lack of spell casting hurts them here, 3rd for me is wizards great spells for utility but they lack the skill monkey abilities of the bard and rouge. I'll give the wizard an A the cleric an A- or B+.
I think if a wizard builds for utility, then their versatility in spellcasting is unmatched, even for the bard. But, I do think the bard deserves the S. Because being the utility role is baked into the very core of their design. A bard doesnt have to try nearly as hard in order to bring S tier utility, they just do. But a wizard would have to specifically go out of their way, and choose all the right spells. A bard doesn't need to do that.
The thing is: the wizard *CAN* prepare, and that is huuuuge. Does he wants to blast? He can blast. Does he wants to control? He can control. Does he wants to focus on utility? He can focus on utility. Their spell list helps them A LOT to do all of this stuff, and they can just learn even more spells. Also the ritual thing is quite strong indeed, you basically never need to prepare a ritual and effectively have more spells "prepared". Like "oh yeah you have 16 spells that you know and are prepared? Shesh, it would be a shame if you couldn't change any of them until you powered up, or if you had to learn and prepare even rituals, or if you didn't have the best spell list.... now litle old me? Oh i have just, idk, 40+ spells in my spellbook, i can just prepare 15, i just have 10 or something rituals that i don't need to prepare and i can just switch those 15 with other spells in my spellbook on a daily basis, nothing really good y'know".
This misses the fact that Wizards are preparers and strategists. There's better improvisation with a Bard, but a smart enough Wizard never needs to stoop to having to improvise a solution. Being prepared to improvise is worse than being prepared to not ever have to improvise. A Wizard knows where people are, what they're doing, what they're thinking, what will happen, where to go, how to achieve what they want to do, what to do in case of unexpected developments, and how it all ties together. Wizards alter reality to their whim given preparation.
@@collinbeal Depends more on the player then just being a wizard. But a good player with good spell selection can be prepared. A bad player with bad spell selection won't be prepared.
Funny enough, I’d give the warlock a strong A grade for utility. Apart from 2-3 combat spells, every other spell on my list was utility. The warlock is the one preparing Fly, Invisibility, Tongues, etc. because they can afford circumstantial spells. The warlock’s weakness of 2 spells/rest is actually not much of an issue, because often in the situations where you need utility spells to solve a puzzle, you have time to rest. Add this to Misty Visions and bam, you’re a very strong support character.
100%! Warlock is so fun in this roll, and with book of ancient secrets you have all the utility casting ability of a wizard (you just have to find the spells).
This is a really strong argument, and I'm glad you brought it up. Even though the Warlock can afford to pick more circumstantial spells I would still, personally, give it a 'B', but I respect where you're coming from.
I played a Warlock once, and it was so useful to be able to cast a 5th level Invisibility on 4 people or to cast a 5th level Fly on 3 people, and to get that spell slot back on a short rest. Because I only had two spell slots, I didn't really take many combat spells. I pretty much just took Shadow of Moil for combat (I was a tanky melee Warlock), and most of the rest of my spell list was utility spells. I went with Pact of the Chain (for the the synergy between Gift of the Ever-Living Ones and Healing Light), but if I'd gone with Pact of the Tome, my utility would have probably been S tier. Especially if I'd also chosen Misty Visions and some other utility invocations. The utility that the spell Find Familiar gives is incredible. I'm surprised that the spell was mentioned so infrequently in this video. Especially the Pact of the Chain getting an invisible familiar with hands is incredible (even better than the Arcane Trickster's invisible Mage Hand). But even the regular Find Familiar spell is incredible utility.
I've played both a wizard and a bard and I would argue bard is the best utility character. Expertise, Jack of all trades, magical secrets. Bard is THE utility character. In the campaign I played my bard, we had a wizard and I almost ALWAYS was the go character for problem solving.
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I agree with Barbarian conclusion:
They are the epitome of "violence isn't the answer, it's a question and the answer is yes"
I do disagree on the rating, I think they're a C.
My reasoning is that most of they're subclasses get: The Beast, Storm Herald, Ancestral Guardian, Wilde Magic and the aforementioned Totem Warrior; get some utility:
-beast
-breathing water
-climb speed
-swimm speed
-better jumps
-herald
-resist cold climates and freez a 5 foot cube of water
-sett something on fire and resist hot climates
-water breathing and swimm
-Wilde Magic
-you get detect magic and their wilde magic table
-Ancestral Guardian
-agury and clairvoyance at level 10
Sure they're all given by different subclasses but that allows them to be inserted in a lot of different party compositions.
I just commented the same quote and feel realy stupid after reading you said it first...
@@nicolaezenoaga9756 barbarians have the best carrying capacity usually
@@Fr3ddyM3hrCurry it's nothing to feel embarrassed about, after all Great Minds think alike.
I feel challenged to make a utility focused barbarian now. Rogue dip plus ritual caster (wizard)?
At the end of this series it would be cool to go through each class one by one and see all it's results on screen at once just as like a final review
I agree completely
About a month or so ago, I played Pathfinder WotR and all of the classes have a kind of radial chart showing their power in different categories and this series made me immediately think of that wheel
Great idea.
Totally agree
100%. Like a class breakdown on grades in each area.
A huge part of the satisfaction of playing a utility character is shocking the party by having the exact clutch solution to whatever problem happens to arise. “You can do what?”
“Wait, you can just come back up after that 1 death save, not have to suffocate in this water we are fighting the Kracken in, not have to deal with your decapitated arm and legs, and you regained some hp during that desperate time??? Bro, Undying Warlock is so good!!!”
In my current campaign, my Barbarian has a criminal background, which lets me pick locks as well as smash doors open, but that's about the only utility it has. I comes in handy some since we don't have a rogue, and leads to funny moments when my lockpicking fails and I say that I got it unlocked and proceed to smash the door open anyway.
Basically, Conan the Barbarian.
He was good at stealth.
He killed the huge snake that way.
Then he snuck in to rescue the Princess.
Then he snuck into the Temple at the end of the movie to confront Thulsa Doom
Our tank is a ranger :/
@@not-a-theist8251
That's a good description
I love that!
"Did you open the lock?"
*SMASH* "Yep." 😝
This has gotta be one of the best comments I've read all day anywhere XD
10:06 this amazing passion and this beautiful motivation when Monty talks about chocolate. I have never seen someone talk with so much love and passion about another subject than D&D who enjoys D&D so much.
You really can see the sparkling in Monty's eyes upon talking about chocolate cake.
they should add in a clip of Gabriel Iglesias saying "chocolate cake" while rubbing his belly
Chocolate is amazing so i get it
My biggest problem with the wizard is that when I play one, I always find myself wishing I had done my daily spells differently. "Hey, um, guys... Anyone feeling sleepy? If I take a long rest, we can do this thing ..."
Yes I can relate, it is frustrating haha.
Yeah, that's why I prefer the non-prep magic users: I have the spells that I have, and there's no point second-guessing in the middle of the adventuring day.
That problem is pretty much solved entirely once your wizard learns Contingency if you're clever enough. It's completely solved once you learn Wish lol.
Or play Sorcerer with Ritual caster feat. Get all wizard utility in ritual spell book.
I'm the opposite. I always have one or two spells that can solve whatever problem we come across
I'm playing as part of a party with a wizard (who has a few levels of artificer), a bard, *and* a druid. We'd be unstoppable if we didn't have a long record of making everything more difficult for ourselves.
You need a Barbarian to join, lol
@@danielgriff2659 they have, probally, a moon druid
Haha, my group is similar too. We have a near perfect set up, but are pure chaos...which is way more fun imo.
@@IkaikaArnado Those are usually the most fun campaigns. No group is so mechanically balanced that roleplaying can't break everything in all the best ways.
If your party doesn't unnecessarily complicate things, are you even playing dnd?
My favourite trait of Monty's is that he always gets even more invigorated and enthused whenever Kelly disagrees with him. To value discussion above being right!
Blind prediction before watching: bard, it has to be bard. They get expertise and automatic half proficiency in everything. On top of that, any argument made in favor of another caster on the basis of spells also applies to the bard because of magical secrets.
Plus they are just full casters to begin with in addition to magical secrets
Also, bardic is just really pretty good as well.
Wrong. Its the wizard
I knew theyd go Wizard, but I agree its Bard until the wizard is mid/high tier level and needs a game world where they have access to spells to scribe besides thier 2/level.
i thought they would downplay wildshape, but they did good by Druid.
It's definitely the wizard.
As a lvl 11 Shepard druid I’ve been able to do so much for my party: summoning, battlefield control, help with travel, scouting, infiltration healing etc. definitely an A+ depending on the campaign.
Druids can be amazingly versatile.
Playing the same sublclass and I agree so much!
Shepherd is simultaneously the best tank, silly DPS, and impressive support all at once with a conjure animals up
Druids are hands down my favorite 5e class; so much versatility yet often underestimated.
Playing a shepherd druid in Frostmaiden was awesome, nailing those survival checks, scouting, summoning, talking to ALL the animals! Absolutely incredible at solving just about any situation
I kinda disagree with your method of only giving out a single S-Ranking. Bard has a good case for being just at good at Utility if not better, depending on what exactly you consider to be Utility. This ranking, there should've been two S-Rankings and I feel like you are kinda compromising the value and accuracy of your grades by fixating on keeping it to one single S-Rank.
Yeah, in the frontliner video it felt wrong not having the barbarian a tier above the rest of the A’s.
@@ElJefeRules I mean especially if you want to show what each class is good at. I can't think of any S class role that the barbarian could fulfill that well to deserve an S-rank other than frontliner.
I completely disagree. Keeping it to one S prevents everything slightly good from being OP mega S tier that you see in tier lists of all genres.
A is still what they consider nearly perfect but having a single S allows you to see what they think is the golden child of said tier list. I wish more people would adopt this style.
Some interesting takes here. I think only having one S ranked class really makes the A field stretched out.
To be fair, Wizard does indeed stand head and shoulders above all the others. You just can't rival their sheer amount of options to them.
@@JinJinJinJinJinJinJinJinJinJin Druids certainly can. Not only do Druids get a greater variety of magic (buff, debuff, healing, AoE damage, battlefield control, defensive pre-casts, utility, summoning) vs Wizard (battlefield control, utility, AoE damage, single-target damage) they also get Wildshape which by itself gives them the equivalent of half a dozen wizard spells all at once (without requiring any spell preparation) : Blindsight (See Invisibility), Flight (Fly), Fast Movement (Expedition Retreat), lifting heavy things (Levitate), breaking open doors (Knock), Wild Companion (Find Familiar), Become something unnoteworthy (Invisibility), Climbing up walls (Spider Climb), Changing Size (Enlarge/Reduce), Grappling Attacks (Earthen Grasp).
Maybe they really need a few more tiers?
@@JinJinJinJinJinJinJinJinJinJin Man I wish there was a class that could basically do everything skill really well, have decent spellcasting, and um yeah have access to every spell in the game. Oh wait thats a bard.
@@agilemind6241 imagine if they had separated the support and utility role in the video. Wouldnt that be a shock
Monty doesn't understand Artificer, and it shows sometimes. He's absolutely right, being a half caster does make artificer inherently less capable than full casters, but they have an amazing spell list for utility, can hand out magic items when needed, provide boosts to saving throws or ability checks, they have guidance, and at level 11 they can literally hand out a spell to their allies that can be used up to 10 times A DAY.
they are absolutely not better than wizards, bards, or druids but they still deserve a solid A rank (bard and druid should be S but I guess they're doing a thing so whatever).
Another case is that they can have more magic items attuned as-well. That could be significant depending on how common magic items are in the campaign.
Well based on what you explained I think they are looking at that stuff more as support not utilities
I actually agree with this. Also a big part of artificer that is overlooked is their magical multi tool from Tasha's. I know they were considering magic items, but as a common item that they can build for 25gp themselves, it allows the choice of any cantrip to be cast for the day and as an action can become any tool kit and grants proficiency with it. On top of that you have expertise in any tool kit your proficient with. Being able to use any tool kit in the game with a minimum +10 to the roll (+15 with advantage of you use enhance ability and flash of genius) has allowed me to do a crazy amount of things with my battlesmith in our party. The same is true for the magical tinkering ability.
The artificer's ability to scribe scrolls of spells from any class, and use any scrolls, makes it possible for an artificer to pass as nearly any other type of spellcaster if they prep to do so. They can use those scribed scrolls to create Blasting Rods or Wands of limited capacity to enhance their abilities, too.
I noticed that as well. Nothing wrong with a half caster.
My thoughts on Bard.
I have played a Creation Bard, the bard whose whole shtick is utility. It performed utility amazingly, and did things no other build could. But I'll be damned if I didn't look at my spells and wish I was a Wizard.
I'm playing one right now, and the big, BIG thing creation bard has over Wizard is they can use spells that 'consume' their reagents like Heroes Feast, Greater Resto, Raise Dead, ext... with wild abandon since at 14 they can make anything that can be used as a spell component. Pre 14, they can use greater resto for free. Also at 14, Creation Bard can summon a huge block of gunpowder or lava for an attack that does almost as much as a meteor swarm in non magical damage, for the cost of a 2nd level spell slot....
Point to consider: Charisma is a much more frequently used utility stat than Intelligence. If you consider spells only, Wizard wins. If you consider everything, I think Bards are an even match.
A wizard can be immortal (clone), have several simulacrums, multiple demiplanes with dozens of bound elementals/fiends he can unleash, and with wish, can duplicate any spell of 8th lvl or lower without needing components, (admittedly this is at lvl 17 so 3 lvls higher than the Creation bard). Plus they can do all the other stuff like counterspell, forcecage, banishment, fireball, glyph of warding (for crazy base defence) etc. A bard can also do some of these things via magical secrets, but a Wizard doesn't need to pick and choose, they can do all of these things. Hence why agree with the ratings, but it is very close for sure.
@@Miggy19779 At high levels sure, I don’t think anyone questions the utility of a 20th level wizard. (BTW, Bard with wish magical secret essentially gets every spell you named). But at level 4, a Bard almost definitely has at least +8 at Persuasion or Deception (or both) and +10 at level 5 at no resource cost. And at level 5 is giving out bardic inspiration 4-5 times per short rest.
A level 12+ wizard probably offers more utility than a level 12+ bard, but it is close. A level 3-8 bard offers more utility than a wizard, and I’m not sure it is that close unless the DM hands out ritual spells like candy.
@@reedsmith8975 I agree that the two classes overtake one another at certain levels, but even a lvl 4 wizard if they choose, they can get skill expert feat + enhanced ability and suddenly they are REALLY good at one skill they picked, or just borrowed knowledge+ enhance ability to be good at any skill they choose, so although still behind a Bard if they choose a Cha skill, they are not so far behind for other skills depending on stat allocation.
The wizard still gets all the other amazing spells like shield, absorb elements, fireball, counterspell, wall of force, etc, which a bard is limited via magical secrets. I just find that there's too many spells I miss as a Bard, and magical secrets just isn't enough even as a lore bard to grab everything that I would want.
But certainly I'm going to agree it's very very close, before I saw the video I thought it would be either Bard or Wiz for sure.
Wizards are great at utility, especially when they're being used "strategically". Unfortunately players rarely play like this. Usually it's getting fireball as fast as possible and hoping that party's tanks will hold the line
Strategic Wizards are super fun. I’ve seen Log Horizon!
I'm playing a LVL 7 divination wizard atm, and my only damage spells are ray of Frost and chromatic Orb. Everything else is utility. I do wish I had some aoe dmg, but I love having a utility spell for most every situation!
I see this as twofold as strategic wizards are often really fun in play when they aren't in combat. But rarley are fun for the dm should they continuously have encounters fall flat just from one player as it also makes the other players potential feel left out. So part of me wishes all wizards could be both fun and explosive while maniacly laughing while smart without killing the vibe for the party.
I used to use fireball, but now my wizard is using lightning bolt, due to the fact he has a highly reworked staff of magi that can cast lightning bolt at level 7, and the lack of immunity to lightning.
I loved my necromancer wizard who was all about control, and letting the summons do the rest
If you get a warlock with pact of the tome and he knows every ritual, he is really good at utility. Water breathing, tiny hut, water walk, telepathic bond, augury, purify food and drink, find familiar, floating disc, unseen servant, all as rituals so limited spell slots aren't a factor and they are always prepared.
Yeah, any spell caster with every ritual will do that. Any class with 20 in every stat tends to perform well too.
@@stevenyoung9738 Right, but it would be pretty difficult to get a 20 in all stats, but not too difficult to get all the rituals. At least all the best ones.
Exception that proves the rule for Fighter: We had an Echo knight in our party and they can manifest their echo (like aspectral person or something) and the important thing is they can swap places. We encountered a small window and we needed to scout the place before we opened the gate. And the fighter made the echo on the other side of that window, swapped places and waved us and went exploring.
That’s the perfect use of that, look at something like Arifureta, Kousuke uses one of his abilities that way multiple times.
I want to make an Echo Knight and play it like a teleporting Rogue.
Don't look at arifureta spare your time
@@HReiss0 don’t you DARE talk bad about Arifureta, I will defend Ari to the death!
Echo Knights are incredible
Thats why I love wizards. Ritual casting straight out of the spell book without the need to prepare it is such a cool and unique feature.
It is not. Every character, even the barbarian can do the same with picking the feat ritual caster and picking the wizard class list for it. The only requirement is having Int or wisdom at 13
@@edwinvermeulen8187 feats aren’t free. Those stat minimums require thoughtful investment that will have an impact on success in what ever class you choose that isn’t already oriented toward having one of those stats rewarded by the class features.
A feat also requires an ASI or a racial choice that grants a feat at 1st level. The earlier you pick the feat the more impact it should have over your characters career, but something to keep in mind is that actual ritual casters have control of the spells they prepare or have access to. The feat allows for a couple of picks but requires significant DM intervention to be rewarded appropriately by giving access to additional spells.
@@binolombardi DM intervention? It works very much like wizard version. As long as you find a spell on a scroll or buy it from other wizards, you can get it. Ritual Caster feat with wizard spell list is like getting almost half of wizard added to your class utility wise. Remember that Wizards also need to find most of these spells other then few free ones they get with levels (from which they also need to pick their combat spells that might be even more rare then utility ones). So don't underestimate this feat.
@@Mithguar the wizard gains more spells as it levels up than it will be able to prepare, so if the DM doesn’t hand out spells then there’s not much of an issue.
If a player selects ritual caster as a feat and the DM doesn’t hand out spells, they don’t get any more spells.
The unique part is that it is a base class feature with no opportunity cost. Tomelocks get a broader selection of rituals but have to give up spicey weapons, magical talismans, or fancy familiars to get them.
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Fun fact! The Ancestral Guardian barbarian can cast augury and clairvoyance so that's a thing. One of my fellow players in a campaign I'm playing in didn't know that until I told them, and they were way beyond the level they got it. When I told them their reaction was basically "Why would I ever use that?". So...yeah. Some Barbarians have a few weird subclass abilities that feel like a sad attempt to force utility onto a class that doesn't need it.
At least it fits the theme
@@joedan5366 True the flavor of it is fitting. I like that they mention that if someone can see your Clairvoyance it appears as a spirit instead of just an orb.
Yeah barbarians are only ever useful outside of combat for VERY smart players, but smart players don't play barbarians because they're useless.
@@smashbrandiscootch719 so many words to say nothing
A thing I see people overlook with the wizard too is that they can copy spells into their spell book as they're adventuring. It costs time and money, especially high level spells, and depends on what spell scrolls and loot your DM gives out, but getting more spells you can choose from to prepare that don't count against your number of spells known is a great class feature for a spellcaster
On paper the wizard is S. In game its very dependent on access to spells. Some DMs are very tight fisted with spells scrolls or books. Sometimes the two spells you get on leveling up is all you can count on.
In that case, they're still better off than other spellcasting classes, though (unless the DM is only restricting Wizard stuff, I guess).
@@brningpyre I'd say that in that case the Druid takes the winning spot. If a Wizard can only rely on level-up spells, they are probably still picking the good battlefield control but they may be missing other forms of utility that Druids either just get from Wild Shape or can prepare after a long rest. Stuff like Spider Climb, Fly, Water Breathing etc.
2 spells per level is way more than enough
@@dashua1735 You are not wrong. That still builds up to 40+ spells at level 20.
@@utkarshgaur1942 What does wild shape give that cannot be achieved with the polymorph spell?
I'm not a huge fan of the only 1 S tier ranking. Bard is definitely an S tier, and arguably as good as any other class.
They know this. They’re good content creators, so they tell you the Bard is S Tier, but “mah rules”, which creates “mah conflict” (aka engagement). Hence, we’re talking about it.
I’d say they’re the best cause of their free spells
Wizard definitely deserves the S ranking. Not only is their spell list the most expansive and they get the most casts out of anyone with Arcane Recovery, the sheer number of spells they learn outweighs anything. If a Bard wants to take Comprehend Languages, they have to weigh it against every other spell they can take at that level, an issue which is further exacerbated if they need to take a spell not on their list like Fabricate or Alarm. If a Wizard wants to take Comprehend Languages, they can get it as one of six 1st level spells they get at level 1, and they'll get another two spells every time they level up from there. Even in a campaign where there's absolutely no chance to add spells to your spellbook without leveling, Wizards get more spells overall from a more expansive list, barring Magical Secrets.
Bard is still an amazing utility generalist class of course, but like... Wizards can have a solution for basically anything in their spellbook. It might not always be the best solution, and someone else might be able to do it better, but the only situation where a Wizard can't do something effective about the problem in front of them is if they're separated from their spellbook.
Edit: It's a point in the Bard's favor that they don't need to prepare spells like the Wizard does and they always have access to their entire spell list, but many of the best utility/problem solving spells are rituals they don't need to prepare to cast. The ones I listed above (except Fabricate), plus Detect Magic, Identify, Find Familiar, Augury, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing...
Gonna balance out the comments bc it's mostly going to be filled with ppl who disagree w u guys. Like a lot of the commenters, I too thought S would go to bard, but then when you didn't and instead gave it too Wizard, i went, "yeah, that actually does make sense". And really, depending on the build and the campaign, you really can argue for either one. Monty explained it pretty well: bards are better with skills, wizards are better at spell flexibility.
This makes me really want to build a clockwork soul sorcerer with the ritual caster feat. All the benefits of sorcerer metamagic with the best wizard spells and the ritual casting to boot.
Treantmonk has a "do it all mage" build based on clockwork soul worth checking out.
Go check out Treantmonk on RUclips, he has a great video on this kind of build called the "god wizard"
@@jesse1018 I didn't see that xD
I want an artificer subclass that’s just bob the builder.
In what way?
How would that work?
8:24 my firbolg bear totem barbarian avoids violence and loves talking to plants and animals and lifting heavy things for the party, he also used a special chain weapon that can trip enemies and entangle tem to make it easier for his fellow party members to hit them. I'd say its a lot of fun to aim towards a more utility-focused skill set as a barbarian, even if its not the MOST effective.
Bard is very much the '5th character' of choice in a party. They can cover every other role in some way when a player or PC is not available.
I haven't watched the entire video, but i see where this is going, with Wizards getting the S tier.
I gotta say, i absolutely disagree.
Wizards have the best spell list, bar none, but that's it.
They are not skill monkeys, they are not social savants, they have no special abilities or expanded tool proficiencies, and they are completely useless in anything physical.
If they don't have the right spell at the right time, they might as well be a burden rather than an asset, when it comes to utility.
Poor ranking, sorry dudes.
But they can be social savants and skill monkeys if they want. Skill expert feat+enhance ability (added to their spell list from tasha's cauldron of everything)=crazy skill rank in a skill or two they can specialise in, and even if they are not skilled, cast borrowed knowledge to gain the skill prof for 1 hour+enhance ability and now they can be really good at it. They can have as many spells in their spellbooks as they like, with only money as a limiting factor (and scribing is cheap),and a long rest between them switching focus of spells entirely if their current selection is inappropriate. Totally deserved S rank.
@@Miggy19779 Anyone can take skill expert, a fighter or a rogue can take it several times more than a wizard, does that make them better at utility? The rest is just you agreeing with what i said, that they have spells but nothing else, and they are not even the only ones who can take spells.
A bard can be a monster in utility with no feats, and without being dependent on gold or their DM giving him spell scrolls to copy, they can also bolster themselves or anyone else with bardic inspiration. Rogues have reliable talent, which the DD's ignored entirely, even though it's one of the most powerful skill monkey features in the entire game, virtually guaranteeing success on the vast majority of checks the rogue is proficient in.
The DD's overvalue spellcasters, it's nothing new and it's not even a rare position to hold within the 5e community.
@@eran5005 I was just replying to your mention of 'skill monkeys' and 'social savants' comment, I personally rate both of these things low in the utility scale, but you seemed to rate them highly so I was just showing how these can be easy to achieve a very high level of competency by the wizard. As mentioned, I rate these things low in the utility scale, instead finding that spells are way more powerful. After all, what do skills matter if I can be really good at any skill I want with just two 2nd level spells and maybe a feat?
@@Miggy19779 But bards can also take spells (and also the ritual caster: Wizard, feat, but that's beside the point, cause i'm talking base class, no feats) and they are also skill monkeys without any spells (and feats) PLUS they have bardic inspiration that they can give themselves or someone else (in addition to everything else mentioned, not either or).
If you consider them low, that's a personal preference, which isn't reflective of how the game is structured in it's core.
What i'm saying is, bard can do 90% of what the wizard can do with spells, plus a lot more stuff without spells the wizard can't do at all.
@@eran5005 Only thing the wizard cannot do is bardic inspiration, which is a support ability not a problem solving (Utility) ability. They can get prof+adv with any skill they might need, they can heal and raise dead (via planar binding couatl or autumn eladrin or other celestials), they can scout with arcane eye/clairvoyance/scrying, and anything else that may be needed with access to the best spell list in the game. And with 8 hours they can switch to a different role entirely. And most people in the poll voted Wizard so they agree with me on that including the Dungeon dudes. In the end, I always look at the Bard spell list and get annoyed at not having the spells I want in the end.
I think there are two main flaws with this whole process:
1. Treating battlefield control as part of utility is a mistake. Controller should be its own role for the purpose of this tier ranking. Utility should be reserved for non-combat problem solving.
2. I think for all of this role-based tier ranking stuff, the "regardless of subclass" requirement is gonna hold you back from showing off some of the best options in the game, especially in base classes specifically designed for versatility. Yes, hexblade warlock built for melee is going to lack utility options, but any Tome warlock is one invocation away from getting access to every ritual spell in the game, which along with their large cantrip selection, makes them a walking swiss army knife of problem solving.
I agree, I got a bit confused when "stunning strike" was considered an utility ability... I think battlefield control should be separate
Before this started, I KNEW you were going for Wizard. Yes, ritual casting and a huge spell selection is great. Now get them to climb a wall or open a door without the right spell. Ask them to participate in melee, or engage socially. Can they heal?
No? Bards can. They can do all of that. I play a Tiefling Sword Bard, and you'll be hard pressed to put him in a situation he can't solve.
There are times the right spell isn't there. There are some times you have to rely on more than a scroll.
Bards can. Wizards can't. Fact.
Place a wizard in the back and give them time to perform a ritual and there's little they can't do. But you can't ask an artillery piece to scout. You can't ask it to negotiate.
Remove spells and wizards are a guy in a dress.
But the problem is that you're removing what makes a Wizard a Wizard. Remove yeast from bread and you only have grain. Wizards don't need to communicate well; they can trick others to think whatever they want, force others to do whatever they want, or know exactly what others are thinking or doing. Convincing others is a form of manipulation, and in terms of manipulation, people's brains are like putty in a wizard's hand. Wizards don't need to climb a wall. They can levitate above it, fly over it, teleport on top of it, go through it, burrow under it, or any other manner of egress, and if they really needed to climb it, that wouldn't be a problem either with magic. Wizards can absolutely participate in melee with the right build, and if they wanted to, they could just do so regardless at higher levels. There's a fifth-or-sixth-level spell that turns a Wizard into a capable frontliner, and they can magically give themselves powerful weaponry and enough protection to avoid getting hit at lower levels. The point though is that they don't have to do any of that. They don't need to convince people to behave how they want, engage in physical activity or melee, or anything. There are spells for all of that.
And Wizards are the best at scouting, and have limited but not nonexistent healing capabilities. They don't need to worry about healing much though, as they can possess another body, create a new body, stop the damage from ever occurring, prevent the encounter from ever occurring, create a real or illusory copy of themselves or others, convince an entire angry mob to go home or a crowd to turn into an angry mob, remove the threat entirely, or, again, protect themselves or others.
"Can they?" is not the right question, even though the answer is invariably yes. The right question is "Do they even have to?" That is what separates an S from an A. There are only a select few things that other characters can do that a Wizard cannot. Wizards cannot revive a long-dead person from a bone, but they can talk to that person, visit them in the afterlife, raise them as an undead, or create a new body for their soul to inhabit. Wizards cannot create sustenance out of thin air, but they can find sustenance or convince others to give them sustenance. Wizards cannot see through magical darkness, but they can find their way through it. Wizards cannot sanctify an area or bless it with a holy ritual, but they can remove all threats from that area and magically protect it. Wizards can go ahead and do all that anyways eventually with Wish, and whatever they cannot do, they have a way around. Brute forcing something is only necessary if you cannot manipulate it, and there is nobody, nothing, and nowhere a Wizard cannot manipulate to fit their needs.
And not having the right spell at the right time is completely solved by a clever Wizard with Contingency. If they don't have the right spell, they can also manipulate the situation until they do have the right spell. Rome wasn't built in a day, and a clever, prepared Wizard can lap a Bard who is improvising.
Healing and inspiration is a support ability rather than utility....
Wizards is the best utility class if you can afford the investment and you are in a campaign that you can actually find new spells. In a low investment scenario, a bard would be better I think
Massive disagree on warlock. Their pact boons and invocations give them so many utility options that it’s insane. Tome gives you any cantrips or ritual spells you might need. Chain gives you a more powerful familiar that is better at scouting than any other. Talisman lets your party better succeed on skill checks, which could in theory fall under support but supporting utility. Eyes of the Rune Keeper, so many “spell at will” invocations, and much more lend to a fantastic interaction utility character, even if their battlefield control options aren’t as fantastic. Even then, you’ve got several subclasses that provide control options, like Archfey, Fathomless, and Genie. I say they’re A, and a pretty good A. Above rogue but below druid and bard
Warlock got absolutely snubbed. Pact of Tome brings Warlock up to having the most cantrips of any straight-classed character from levels 3-20, and they can rip some of them from any list(s) they want. And they often only need to use one or two cantrip slots on attacks (EB + a melee option), committing the rest to utility. Minor Illusion, Guidance, Mold Earth, Shape Water etc. Book of Ancient Secrets makes the Warlock the best ritual caster in the game. Better than Wizards. Your eligible ritual list is /every/ ritual in the game. Speak with Animals and Commune with Nature from Druid; Telepathic Bond, Find Familiar, Tiny Hut from Wizard; Forbidance from Cleric. And you're not eating pact slots to ritual cast. Even if you don't take Pact of Tome, Pact of Chain gives an invisible, flying familiar!
Invocations swap out as you level. As the plot develops you can choose what matters most in the campaign similarly to the bard. Exploring impossibly ancient ruins? Detect magic at will and read all writing including that language lost to time. Investigating the murky depths in the bay? See in magical darkness and breathe underwater (and don't worry about someone dispelling it when you get down there). And!!! You just said yourself illusion magic is nearly the definition of utility! Disguise self, Invisibility, SILENT IMAGE, at will!
Pick a patron to expand your spell options. Want illusion spells? Archfey. No cleric in the party? Celestial. Not sure? Genie. Most patrons will at least help utility a little.
I would still put several classes ahead of them overall; but there is simply no way for a sorcerer built for utility to keep up with a warlock built for utility. Even for their large number of cantrips, they have less options and less total vs. Pact of Tome. And when they start burning good spell slots on utility functions instead of big control/blast spells and substitute Fire Bolt in combat their DPR contribution falls off a cliff, where as in comparison the warlock can lean on Agonizing Blasts and be fine with a 1 cantrip, 1 invocation investment. When you can perform your utility at will, sorcerer's greater pool of spells/day is moot.
Completely agree. To the point where I'd rank tome warlock seperate from all others. Non-tome warlocks are like mid c to low b, tome warlocks are a to s tier.
@@jpptgaiv i disagree with that. 3 out of 4 pact boons are utility options (you know about tome, but chain gives you a familiar with more options, and talisman gives you skill bonuses you can pass around with more options through invocations. blade is the only one without utility uses). and invocations like mask of many faces, and so many other "Cast X at will" invocations, that all warlocks can grab, boost all warlocks to at least a B+
2 approaches to utility: wizard: "i encourage planning". barbarian: "i encourage violence." great video!
the Artificer presents an interesting problem. I understand wanting to give it an A, but if you are doing an A for druids and bards, artificer is no where near the same. I think I would have to give it a B overall and say there are A tier options if you focus.
I honestly thought Artificer would be S tier. I think you're underestimating them.
@@AwesomeWookiee I love artificers but was still expecting bard or wizard to be S. They are exceptionally good at utility but if they were a full caster that would probably make them S tier, even above the Wizard.
The problem with the artificer is that more than most, possibly any, other classes its subclasses have huge differences. There are Rogues and Fighters more like bards and paladins than the alchemist is like the battle smith.
@@AwesomeWookiee what features do they have that makes them as good or better than a wizard, bard, or druid?
@@jamesmullen3068 the ability to make magic items for cheap I guess. other than that, wizards alone are better at anything the artificer does.
Bard is my personal S pick, but I also think they are undervaluing Warlock a bit. The low number of spell slots certainly hurts, but several invocations are things like "You can cast X spell at will without using a spell slot" which is really strong. Plus, since Eldritch Blast is such a strong blaster cantrip and all leveled spells are upcast based on the level of the Warlock, it makes a lot of sense to build a Warlock where Eldritch Blast is the primary go-to damage spell, keep maybe a big AoE and a larger blasting spell in the back pocket for groups and burst, and then primarily focus spell choices on scaling utility spells and save the spell slots for those. Things like summon spells, fly, counterspell/dispel magic, hold person, etc. And that's not counting Book of Ancient Secrets for Tome Warlocks, which gives them ritual casting and the ability to learn every ritual spell in the game, regardless of class, and cast them as rituals.
I love playing Warlocks as Utility with Invocations, completely ditching Eldritch Blast.
With my warlocks I only take Eldritch Blast and one other combat spell at most, and that's either Hunger of Hadar or Evard's Black Tentacles. For the rest, it's all utility and maybe some support depending on my patron
@@maid_of_heart3261 I only just started a blaster warlock in a recent game, and I'm definitely digging it, but I'm definitely missing all my old utility spells
Blind prediction before watching: I had a hard time choosing between Bard and Wizard as the S tier, but decided on Wizard. Give a Wizard any amount of heads up and they can *tailor* their spells to fit the situation. Don't give them any heads up and not much changes as their spells are many and varied. A good Wizard is prepared for just about anything save a DM smite tor being a smarmy jerk lol.
Warlock can be amazing as a utility caster, because they can cast a utility spell without wasting a spell slot, because they can just short rest after. You don’t even need to think about a wasted resource as warlock, while other classes do. Warlock also has too many utility Invocations to ignore.
Wizard can also do this, because they can use arcane recovery to regain spell slots. Nobody talks about arcane recovery, but it can make the wizard steal some of the warlocks ability!!!
I feel like people often forget that warlock spell slots come back on a short rest
I feel like this is ez bard, face of the party, profficiency in almost every skill at once if you want and Jack of all trades, inspiration is the core mechanic and is the definition of utility. And a full caster. The gap from bard to 2nd place is big imo.
I strongly disagree with the definition of utility if Wizard is an S. Debuffer/controller is very different from utility.
I could see controlling, buffing, and debuffing being considered in combat utility.
Inspiration is not utility, it's support trick.
Wizard can get amazingly good in any skill too, it is called borrowed knowledge, a 2nd lvl spell, and enhance ability, another 2nd lvl spell and suddenly you are proficient and gain advantage on all rolls on that skill. And if you REALLY have a hard-on for a skill, skill expert feat + enhance ability spell and now you are a top tier skill guy. But this is a tiny amount of what the Wizard brings: demiplanes full of planar bound fiends/elementals he can unleash (admittedly a high lvl spell), immortality (clone), simulacra, whilst still doing all the other crazy stuff like counterspell, banishment, fireball, glyph of warding. Heal spell, greater restoration, raise dead? A Wizard can do all of this by planar binding an Autumn Eladrin (MToF), who needs clerics? Bard can do many of those things with magical secrets, but a Wizard can do them all.
About warlocks: i think that the potential to learn ALL the ritual spells in the game is a strong case for the warlock, they are potentiallu the best ritual caster in the game
Think the dudes really evaluated warlock incorrectly, its at least worthy of an A. Completely glossing over the utility present in the invocations list is a HUGE miss. Just at low level here - free speak with animals, access to every ritual by the same ruleset as wizards if you take book of ancient secrets makes it just better than wizard in that regard, seeing magical darkness for puzzles or maybe casting other utility spells in that space, free detect magic without ritual casting because time may be important, reading all writing to translate for the party, eldritch blast being able to push/pull, free disguise self, free silent image and thats just invocations with no level requirement lol.
You may think that since warlocks have to choose pact of the tome or choose certain spells to have greater utility that kind of disqualifies them, but its the same choices a sorcerer makes with their metamagic picks, and the same choice a wizard makes to add additional spells into their spell book. Everything has a cost here so you can't just throw the Warlocks choices out the window.
Warlocks have access to better ritual casting than the wizard, upcast for free (not always relevant), wont blast very often since blasting is usually terrible when you have 2/3/maybe 4 spell slots per short rest, and have access to tons of personal and team utility through invocations. Wizards do beat them on the sheer amount and variety of spells they can normally cast, but warlocks do not have to expend their spell slot resources for a heavy majority of the utility they provide.
and other pact boons like chain and talisman still have good utility.
Once again, we see the problem with "half casters" in 5e: their spellcasting (past level 1) is really only useful to supplement their martial abilities, or to provide some emergency backup healing/utility if the full casters are down/depleted.
i dont thinkk its a problem, its inherant in the design concept, you dont get to be grerat in melee combat AND in spell use.. and when you arent great at eithe rone, well, it shows and you feel underpowered
When you mixed warlocks with sorcerers in this videoyou really missed out on actually talking about Warlock utility. In any situation where you are taking a short rest anyways, which is pretty common in utility situations, that spell slot is free. Combo that with invocations like mask of many faces, misty visions, repelling blast in combat, and either the pact of the chain familiar or pact of the tome’s Book of ancient secrets (access to every ritual spell of every class in the game!) High B tier utility at minimum, even without considering subclass.
Yeah, glossing over the utility of invocations was a definite miss. Misty visions alone is an awesome illusion spell you can use as basically a cantrip. Eldritch sight is super broken for any campaign that isnt oversaturated in magic. Eyes of the runekeeper means any puzzle involving multiple languages is now way easier, not to mention any campaigns that cross into foreign lands. Ascendant step lets you levitate at level 9. Higher level campaigns can get even more things like free invisibility with Shroud of Shadow or passively seeing true forms with Witch Sight(so no surprise polymorphed dragons or demons). And then just about any mod to Eldritch blast just helps with battle map control, either pushing the enemy away, pulling them in range of other players or a trap, or just slowing them down so everyone can get away.
@@CrownofMischief I am also fond of visions of distant realms at 15 if you get there. At will Arcane eye is insane utility.
They didn’t mention this either but the flip side of ‘warlocks don’t cast many spells’ is that they get so many more spell options per spells cast. So picking up a niche utility spell is more tolerable for a warlock as they’re not exactly hurting for more spell options to cast with their two spell slots
I have a problem with this entire series. I just don’t see the utility. With subclasses there are so many exceptions that saying a class is best at something comes with too many caveats to be useful.
then congrats, you found some content on the internet that isn't for you
Playing wizard for a couple years know, wow yeah, great utility! I may not bring much dps to the table, that’s the rest of the party’s job, but I do provide spells like rarys and water breathing like you two mentioned, I’m the party’s personal guide to Fearun with all the teleporting around. A few spells for getting past obstacles, protecting the party or dispelling magic, an a handful for debilitating stuff like flesh to stone. Not having to prepare ritual spells is my favorite part. Only downside is just how overwhelming it can be. My next character will likely be a barbarian
Edit: weird how many people are upset by Bard’s placement. A++ isn’t enough?
Watching you both come to your senses on the Sorcerer was really fun
You guys were a little harsh on the fighter I think, the Echo Knight gives a whole slew of exploration and social skills just by existing, and even the purple dragon knight gets expertise in persuasion lol, maybe D is fair but it could push C if you're optimistic
Make no mistake, my Wizard is a damage dealer, but I also go with as many utilitarian spells as I can, especially ritual ones like water breathing and Tiny Hut. I told my DM that I have tea with my party every morning, this applies the water breathing automagically. My party pays me for the mats and I keep Identify rituals at the ready. Cant wait to get Control Water and then have the option to drown and entire room of enemies while we sit back and laugh...lol.
Guys, the Barbarian is actually a 'S' Tier utility character...If it's not working, you're just not using a big enough axe!
Mask of Many Faces and Devils sight on a warlock make a pretty great use of Utility
And the invisible pet with a psychic connection anywhere on the same plane.
Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions give you infinite illusions, which are the "epitome of utility".
Now just need to get deception expertise and actor feet. Fun times.
not to mention everything with tomelocks.
Artificer not specialised for utility and a B for utility? Alright, Monty just needs more experience with arties man
Artificers are definitely a solid A. Great to have 99% of the time.
I feel like there wasn't enough conversation about what the warlock can bring to the table with invocations because the warlock's utility shouldn't come from it's normal spell list because you don't have enough slots to be helpful reliably. No, their utility should come from all the spells and unique abilities their invocations allow them to do at will.
I think their approach was to attempt to look just at spell lists and base class features with no tuning.... but....they went out of their way with sorcerer/metamagic to show how you could tune them for utility while ignoring a similar approach for invocations. Still awesome entertainment...maybe they left this gap to keep us chatting here...idk
@@benjaminkowal7310 metamagic utility is unmatched by warlock's invocations.
@@sydorovich2532 I don't really want to dispute that. My point is more along the line of suggesting empowered spell isn't utility anymore than agonizing blast is so ...there is an opportunity cost to utility metamagic just as there is with any utility invocation.
@@sydorovich2532 is it though? Most metamagic is pretty combat oriented and sure you get access to some nice battlefield control options with twin spells but what else really? subtle spell and distant spell are the only ones I can think of being reliable utility boosting options even then though your use of metamagic is limited by your sorcery points and spell slots so you may not want or have the option to use it all the time. Compare that to things like the ability to read all text, detect magic at will, alter or disguise self at will, speak with dead at will, speak with animals at will, silent image at will, turning invisible at will (in dim light or darkness but still) the ability to see in darkness magical or otherwise, the ability to see through shape shifted creatures and creatures disguised by illusion and transmutation automatically or even just access to ritual casting. I skipped over quite a few of them still I think I got a lot of the most interesting options. Warlock is a much stronger utility character than people give it credit for I think.
I desperately need advice. My players have successfully feeble minded my BBEG and even his contingency (dispell magic) won't work. What should I do besides be proud/angry of my players.
I feel like Clerics and Druids are inherently A just by the virtue of being prepared casters
Also, if we go by optimisers rules, we can't say that wizard has all the spells money can buy because it's DM's fiat and is unreliable. I still agree on the S ranking since a lot of good utility spells are rituals and wizards don't need to prepare them. Just to have them in a book.
Guidance
They have good utility spells but how many times have I said
"Can't today but I can tomorrow", lol.
You started out talking about "best utility class", but as you were wrapping up the Fighter, I realized that you're focusing on utility in combat... "battlefield utility" is the term you used repeatedly throughout the video. Then you swung back to talking about skills, then battle field... in the end, I wasn't sure if either of you had a clear goal in mind, as you were taking about either topic consistently.
As a Paladin, I've gotten a lot of mileage in...curse of Strahd. Divine Sense is really a neat ability but it could do with being a tad more broad. Scanning for consecrated/desecrated things and hidden undead has been fun though. A few of their spells are also very handy, although they don't often have the slots or preparations to have those utility items available in a day. I managed to give some spirits a send off with Ceremony as well as officiate a wedding. It's such a fun spell to use just to be a priest and do various story events that I wish Paladin was a ritual caster. Zone of Truth has a lot of interrogation/legal setting uses.
Divine Sense utility runs out when you need to find something that isn't literally a skeleton in a closet xD. You know, because it can't detects anything that is behind slightly thicker stone wall like the ones you would expect in, let's say, a tomb. It's range is also as long as average darkvision of a character. So combined with limitation of detecting things behind somewhat thicker objects, If you can't see it, Divine Sense won't see it either ;D
That ability is so niche it's sad.
how to make a warlock great at utility and.. not useless at combat: Eldrich blast + agonizing blast. Every other spell, every spellslot, every other invocation => utility.
Monk saving throws being Strength and Dexterity to this day I think 5E dropped the ball.
What would you give them instead?
They usually give a class a major save prof (Dex, Wis, Cha) and a minor (Str, Con, Int). Thats why the monk is dex and str instead of wisdom.
@@intoHeck1964 yeah, though you swapped con and cha, dex con and wis saves are the absolute strongest saves and having 2 of those saves is massive, dex for damage, con against stunned poisoned and the like, and wis against almost all mind intruding spells.
@@taily89 Monk though isn't the biggest damage dealer so having the two saves being strong I felt wouldn't be overkill.
@@katarhall3047 Then if someone was specced into either wisdom or dex, why would they not choose to just start as monk then, multiclass out and never in again?
I think warlocks with pact of the tome and book of shadows are like easily A. All rituals? That's better than the wizard but obviously just one subclass... oh wait, invisible familiar someone said?
This definitely shows the Rogue’s absurdly good skill set. Monty and Kelly average out the Rogue as B+/ A-, and the other two classes with limited/ nonexistent spell casting, the Barbarian and Fighter, are both listed as D.
Monk? Or are you counting it as a halfcaster or smth lol
@@Lich-x2g Not going to lie: I saw the video and still forgot about the Monk...just like Rodney Dangerfield: "No Respect", lol!!
I think Warlock is hugely underrated for utility. I agree that it isnt core to every Warlock so you couldnt call them top tier, but I think discussion does them a bit dirty by not looking at the utility that you can build towards. A class that can know and cast *every* ritual spell in the game regardless of class list? They can pick up a significant number of utility spells as At Will abilities. And they can grab a number of unique utilities that arent really available to others - want to permanently see through magical darkness? See through shapechanges and any illusion or transmutation disguises?
I knew they would pick wizard, but I was really hopin for the Druid to secure that S tier. Wildshape is just so much utility at every level of play that even without their spell list they should score high on the list.
Honestly I can`t see bards being better than them either. Druids and Wizards bring very comparable things to the table and being able to change your spells everyday is a big deal.
While Druids are strong with utility I don't see them beating Bards. They don't have anywhere near the skill versatility, and the spells Bards can choose out preform what Wildshapes can do, though I would put them above Artificers since they're full casters
@@Nickelback8469 Prove it, which Bard spells out perform Wildshape on utility tasks?
I'll grant you Bard's have great skills, but it somewhat depends how you classify tasks, if social interaction is classed under Utility then yes, Bard is amazing and potentially the top of all the classes, but if it is considered a separate thing then Bards aren't nearly as good. IMO social interaction generally should be classed under utility because the ability to convince someone with the information you need to share it with you can substitute for a lot of other skills/spells:
e.g. a wizard can go to the library and research a monster or lore behind your next quest, or a bard can go to the library flirt with the librarian and get the librarian to do the research and simply tell the party the info they need to know.
e.g. a druid can carefully track the footprints of an assassin back to their base, or a bard can go hang out at a shady bar and chat up some members of the assassin's guild and convince them to invite the party to join them.
@@agilemind6241 due to magical secrets, any spell in the game. Flight, Disguise Self, Charm Person, Invisibility, Dimension Door, and a lot of these spells are better enablers for the rest of the party as well. And with a single feat in Ritual Caster, the Bard’s flexibility skyrockets.
Though not everything, I do also consider face skills to count towards utility, and it’s more reason for why I’d place Bard over Wizard in this category.
This is a good, but I think your definition of utility simultaneously nebulous and narrow. I think the Bard should be the winner, and I would challenge the idea that the best skill monkey is the rogue, rather I think that's a lore bard.
I feel like Lore Bard is the best utility bard, especially at 6th level when they get the extra magical secrets to fill in any utility spells the party needs.
I think Eloquence being able to auto-succeed Deception and Persuasion checks is so nice, though.
Lore also gets additional expertise. Plus cutting words is just nasty. Lore might be the best subclass in 5e.
Nothing beats the Chronurgist. Arcane Abeyance is just so good.
Lore, creation, eloquence are all great sub classes for it.
Unfailing and Infectious inspiration from Eloquence bard can give them a run for their money
hello can you help me I am multiclassing into an artificer but I'm also a druid because of my backstory I'm a circle of the Moon Druid at Tenth level I need to know if I need to go lower on that so I can get better for the artificer
A subclass for Artificer that focus’s on utility is the Maverick from Explorring Eberron. You get to borrow from other classes spells constantly
I get wizards as the S-tier, but take away their spellcasting focus or drop an anti-magic zone, and they suddenly get passed up by the barbarian and everyone else. I feel like utility needs to be dependable in just about every situation. That's why I voted for the rogue. Reliable Talent, Expertise, and the feature you'll never actually use: Stroke of Luck. Rogues are going to get the job done more consistently in any situation.
Absolutely love these tier list style videos!
"In terms of chocolaty bards..." "... the bard doesn't need to try, the bard just IS a utility character" I'm dying!🤣🤣🤣
Also, I'm pretty sure you just called the bard a tool, which makes it even better.
I was a tiny bit butt hurt Druid wasn't S. But was pleasantly pleased to hear you put them next to Bard and RIGHT there by S. And it's funny ppl don't really agree because both players haven't played one themselves or seen how incredible Druids can be.
I agree with their druid ranking. But not their bard or rogue ranking. I'm still watching the video and already know they are going to rank the wizard with the S which is sad. Yes they have the spells but they don't have the skills. Wizards and Druids are close. A/A+ range. Rogues S- and Bards S+. My idea of utility is jack of all trades. Can you heal? Support? Pass skill checks? Find solutions to almost any problem? Bard is yes yes yes.
One last word on wizard. They are OP clearly the best class in D&D and honestly should be nerfed. The spell list could and probably should be cut to 2/3 in size and they still might be the best class in the game. But I still disagree with them being an S tier. So if their spell list is 99 spells it should probably be cut to 66.
@@Fairburne69 here's the thing with wizards: you don't need skill proficiencies when you just cast a spell that automatically succeeds. That's why they're S Tier.
@@MethosJK9 Pretty much. And this video is also going off each class not counting in their subclasses. Wizard has access to all its spells regardless of subclass, and even if Rogue is a B, something like Arcane Trickster would definitely be an S.
However, that's why they leave out the subclasses. We'd be here all day dissecting if they did. Base rogue is accurate with their ranking, it's the subclasses that make huge differences there.
Blind comment made at 2:31 in the video the S tier is wizard because they get access to all the good spells though admittedly lacking in social encounters if there is a gripe.
My personal S tier is Druid. Wild shape for scouting or infiltration, crowd control, battlefield control, summoning, spot healing, can talk to animals. Pretty much anything you'd want.
What seals the deal for me is that Tasha's gave them a possible way to cast Find Familiar.
I'm playing a wildfire druid, and I can't imagine any wizard doing as much for my party as the wildfire spirit has done on its own. And that's before considering how much wild shape and spells have done.
Except teleportation. Unless you're playing Wildfire Druid of course, but requiring a specific subclass to be the best is explicitly disqualifying from S tier.
Come to think, it's be really nice to see a return of the Planar Shepherd (which was an extremely OP prestige class for Druids from Eberron in 3.5), because the expansive view of the entire multiverse as a natural ecosystem is sadly missing in this edition.
@@watcher314159 Transport Via Plants spell is pretty underrated IMO.
@@daysliveon Tree Stride is much more situational than basically any other teleport spell, and is a high enough spell level it's not even an option in most campaigns.
@@watcher314159 Yeah, you're right. Tree stride is pretty situational. I've seen it dominate a few encounters though.
I see the argument for Wizard. Personally, I'd rather have the wildshape utility options available.
Ugh. Wizards tops like every D&D list. They're kind of out of control.
Kinda expected Druid to also hit S-tier - I had a Tortle Druid of the Land the party called the Utilitortle because I had something in the bag for basically every possible situation.
Hey can someone tell me where I can find the original image used in the thumbnail of the wizard?
New video. Neat.
You do know the true saying is jack of all trades master of none jack of all trades is still better than a master of one
Nice video, and I agree with your conclusions.
However, I believe that you should not have included battlefield control in this roles description.
That, to me, is its own thing. While they may often be taken care of by the same character they are not the same role.
Wizard spell list is kookoo bananas. Need a fortress built, magically protected, physically protected, lit, guarded, accomodated, and supplied? Wizard can do that. Need to travel a foot, a mile, a plane, or a planet? Wizard can do that. Need to communicate with anyone, anywhere? Wizard can do that. Need to get into somewhere or something? Wizard can do that. Need to find something out or locate something or someone? The wizard can do that. Need to sleep or rest comfortably on the go? Wizard. Need to tie down enemies? Wizard. Need a new body? Wizard. Need to mind control someone or bend them to your will or read their emotions? Wizard. Need to boost an ability to achieve something, whether it's moving, sneaking, lifting, whatever? Wizard. Need to store something somewhere accessible but discreet? Wizard. Need to bind an elemental or demon to your will? Wizard. Need to make something or transform something? Wizard. Need a fancy weapon or protection? Wizard. Need to scout? Wizard. Need to resurrect someone from the dead? There's a wizard for that. Need to puppet the dead? There are a couple good wizards for that. Need to talk to the dead? Boom wizard. Need to confuse or distract or attract enemies? Wizard. Need to change the fabric of reality itself to your whim, cheat death, duplicate yourself, end a storm, torture someone ruthlessly, destroy an object entirely, change everyone's perception of a terrain? You'll need a damn powerful wizard, but it's doable. Need to call a dragon god through a portal into Hell, bind it for all eternity, erect a castle over it with golems keeping watch, prevent anyone from teleporting there, hide it entirely, convince Asmodeus to sell you the requisite land for a pittance (the real estate market there is cutthroat), and travel back, all before tea? You'll need a few insane wizards, but it's doable. Need to start a business selling new bodies to elderly nobles to fund your wizardly endeavors? There are some ethical dilemmas there, but that's not a problem. Have at it, you cheeky wizard.
LOL well said, I agree 100%. Oh, any wizard can raise the dead, it's called planar binding - Autumn Eladrin. Or Solar for resurrection.
Remember everyone these videos are the base class WITHOUT subclass. I see some of y'all saying you disagree because x subclass makes y class an S tier. They aren't factoring in subclasses, just base classes. If we were factoring in subclasses these would be wildly different, as things like Rogue would have gotten an S tier utility just for Arcane Trickster alone.
I have to disagree. Rogue is not very good at utility. They are excellent scouts / infiltrators, but that's about it.
No, they are factoring in subclasses. It's just that having one subclass or build that's really good doesn't automatically give it a high rank if the other choices are meh. Since 5th edition demolished the skill system, Rogue dropped a lot in utility. They are really good at some other things though.
After you are done with the ranking of classes can we get a ranking of feats for different roles?
Don’t underestimate a warlock with Utility invocations
The biggest issue i have with this list, is that Rogues get an A, for their skill proficiency, while bards are way WAY better skill monkeys due to Jack of all trades. In Addition their Magical secrets let them pick any spell for any role that they want to do. There spell list isn't naturally nudged into any role, or conflicts when trying to do multiple roles, a wizards spell list often does. While its true that wizards can change spells on the fly, the availablity of spell scrolls, spell research, and gold to scribe spells as well as purchase the material components for some spells differer from table to table. Base line, a lvl 20 wizard has 25 spells prepared, a lvl 20 bard has 28 spells known. One feat (Ritual caster) allows you to do all the ritual stuff you do as a wizard as well, If the table is generous with spellscrolls and gold, while the wizard can't pick one feat or ability to get all of the benefits from Jack of all trades, or bardic inspiration, and having the option to choose from every other spell list as well.
Wizards are good at Utility, but they are not nearly as good as bards in that role.
The thing is , bardic inspiration imho is a support role power rather than utility, so it should score towards scoring who is the best support. But jack of all trades is pointless, a wizard doesn't need it as he can just cast borrowed knowledge+enhance ability and be proficient with advantage with any skill he might need at the time. This, combined with the more expansive spell list, makes the Wizard the S tier utility. Now if they do a video on which class is best at support....
I love this new tier list series you have. This oddly enough reminds me of 4e classes and how they're structured.
Are you guys familiar with 4e? I know it gets a bad rap but I really like it.
I was about to say something really snarky regarding 4e but in the middle of it I just stopped and deleted the whole comment. I cant STAND 4e myself, but I'm glad you get a lot of enjoyment from it. Happy adventuring!
4e follows the basic 4 role model from MMORPGs, right? Tank, controller, DPS, healer?
@@Heritage367 mmorpgs have 3 roles, no controller
I really love the flourish that 4e has. The sheer amount of abilities that you can use from lvl1 is so dam fun. Also just the mechanics of it are creative and satisfying
Hey guys, great episode! It did make me wonder about something with druids. With wild shape...our group plays druids as they cannot turn into an animal that they have not seen or interacted with. Is that incorrect? Because a level 8 giant eagle would be awesome!
Id call that a flavor issue for DMs to decide. I use a similar rule for things like exotic animals, like dinos, or ice spider, or similar. I feel like a druid knows about most normal animals that exist, and dont have to specifically RP each animal before they can use it.
@@hopelessnecromantic2794 Thanks! Not sure how that worked.
I find it really strange that you guy categorized battlefield control and utility together. Often I see these as separate roles entirely (though that's not to say that they can't be covered by the same class). For me, Utility is about out of combat problem solving abilities. Information gathering skills, puzzle solving, and mobility and teleportation.
This is why i have wizard as a B class utility. I main utility as you described it and Bards are best closely followed by Artificers. Artificer Battlesmith with clan craftsman background is a beast with gadged for every occasion.
I played a barbarian in 3.5 that picked up a bunch of rogue skills as cross-class skills. It wasn't a good build, but everyone at the table enjoyed the Stealth Moose.
I played a Barbarian Rogue multiclass in Curse of Strahd. He was set up as a sort of investigator with expertise in investigation and perception (and decent rolls for intelligence and wisdom) and dealt tons of damage with guaranteed sneak attack in combat.
I've recently just finished playing a druid from 1 to 20 so I am extremely biased and I know it. The druid I played was the only full caster in a team of martials and warlocks.
While I agree that wizards are the best utility casters in the game. My personal opinion is that a Druid beat everyone in term of versatility. They have access to the entirety of the druid spell list everyday and it can allow them to fulfill any role the party needs.
High level wizards are scary big bads, but my personal opinion is that a high level druid is signficantly more terryifing as a big bad because you have no idea what they're going to be capable of today.
Don't worry, I know that Druids are robbed in this video. Wizards are only as good as their spell book not their spell list. A druid has all their spells whenever they want + wildshape + summoning + some of the best (if not the best) BFC in the game.
I have played both bards and wizards in 5E for years, and I cannot agree with placing the wizard higher as a utility character (unless your definition of "utility" differs from my understanding). The bard is the class built around utility and support , they simply excel in it. Their spell selection is geared towards it, they gain magical secrets, they gain the most skill proficiencies of all classes and jack of all trades to cover the gaps, they provide bardic inspiration, most of their subclasses have utility features, and so on and so forth. The wizard is an excellent class, no doubt, probably the most powerful class in the game. But in terms of utility and support, noone can hold a candle to the bard.
Agreed. The bard differs from almost every other class as they handle the full range of utility in spells. The wizard will have great utility in spells like fly, or tiny hut, but they wont be purify water or be curing diseases. The bard might not have a specific spell that the wizard has without magical secrets but they cover a wider range of utility problems with their spells and then handle even more without spells.
Utility: it's probably going to be a fight between bards, wizards and rogues.
Wizards are the utility magic, rogues have the physical skills, but there's a reason why the bard is the jack of all.
The problem in giving the wizard the utility role, is how people misquantify the amount of spells that wizards can prepare for a given day. With casting modifier+level that means they know 15 spells at level 10 and they have 11 in their book that they 'may' prepare for their next day. Level 10 bards have 14 spells, 16 if you include their magical secrets. And this is without mentioning their bardic inspiration and skill proficiencies/expertise. Wizards have good utility, especially if you keep a bunch of rituals in the book for everyday casting, but that alone can't just make them the S.
For me bards are the S tier its easy, Rogues are 2nd A+ lack of spell casting hurts them here, 3rd for me is wizards great spells for utility but they lack the skill monkey abilities of the bard and rouge. I'll give the wizard an A the cleric an A- or B+.
I think if a wizard builds for utility, then their versatility in spellcasting is unmatched, even for the bard.
But, I do think the bard deserves the S. Because being the utility role is baked into the very core of their design. A bard doesnt have to try nearly as hard in order to bring S tier utility, they just do. But a wizard would have to specifically go out of their way, and choose all the right spells. A bard doesn't need to do that.
The thing is: the wizard *CAN* prepare, and that is huuuuge. Does he wants to blast? He can blast. Does he wants to control? He can control. Does he wants to focus on utility? He can focus on utility. Their spell list helps them A LOT to do all of this stuff, and they can just learn even more spells. Also the ritual thing is quite strong indeed, you basically never need to prepare a ritual and effectively have more spells "prepared".
Like "oh yeah you have 16 spells that you know and are prepared? Shesh, it would be a shame if you couldn't change any of them until you powered up, or if you had to learn and prepare even rituals, or if you didn't have the best spell list.... now litle old me? Oh i have just, idk, 40+ spells in my spellbook, i can just prepare 15, i just have 10 or something rituals that i don't need to prepare and i can just switch those 15 with other spells in my spellbook on a daily basis, nothing really good y'know".
This misses the fact that Wizards are preparers and strategists. There's better improvisation with a Bard, but a smart enough Wizard never needs to stoop to having to improvise a solution. Being prepared to improvise is worse than being prepared to not ever have to improvise. A Wizard knows where people are, what they're doing, what they're thinking, what will happen, where to go, how to achieve what they want to do, what to do in case of unexpected developments, and how it all ties together. Wizards alter reality to their whim given preparation.
@@collinbeal Depends more on the player then just being a wizard. But a good player with good spell selection can be prepared. A bad player with bad spell selection won't be prepared.
Can you please release a blooper real from all of these ranking videos?
Bards are my S pick. They are just perfect for the role.
The Warlock have their full utility potential in their invocations. I would not underestimate that.
Funny enough, I’d give the warlock a strong A grade for utility. Apart from 2-3 combat spells, every other spell on my list was utility. The warlock is the one preparing Fly, Invisibility, Tongues, etc. because they can afford circumstantial spells.
The warlock’s weakness of 2 spells/rest is actually not much of an issue, because often in the situations where you need utility spells to solve a puzzle, you have time to rest.
Add this to Misty Visions and bam, you’re a very strong support character.
100%! Warlock is so fun in this roll, and with book of ancient secrets you have all the utility casting ability of a wizard (you just have to find the spells).
This is a really strong argument, and I'm glad you brought it up. Even though the Warlock can afford to pick more circumstantial spells I would still, personally, give it a 'B', but I respect where you're coming from.
I played a Warlock once, and it was so useful to be able to cast a 5th level Invisibility on 4 people or to cast a 5th level Fly on 3 people, and to get that spell slot back on a short rest.
Because I only had two spell slots, I didn't really take many combat spells. I pretty much just took Shadow of Moil for combat (I was a tanky melee Warlock), and most of the rest of my spell list was utility spells.
I went with Pact of the Chain (for the the synergy between Gift of the Ever-Living Ones and Healing Light), but if I'd gone with Pact of the Tome, my utility would have probably been S tier. Especially if I'd also chosen Misty Visions and some other utility invocations.
The utility that the spell Find Familiar gives is incredible. I'm surprised that the spell was mentioned so infrequently in this video. Especially the Pact of the Chain getting an invisible familiar with hands is incredible (even better than the Arcane Trickster's invisible Mage Hand). But even the regular Find Familiar spell is incredible utility.
I've played both a wizard and a bard and I would argue bard is the best utility character. Expertise, Jack of all trades, magical secrets. Bard is THE utility character. In the campaign I played my bard, we had a wizard and I almost ALWAYS was the go character for problem solving.
I love this series. You two have excellent debates about class features and abilities, and I think this is my favourite avenue of critique yet.
Let’s be honest here, there was no doubt who would be number one on this list lol.