Patricia Tallman On Star Trek DS9 Copying Babylon 5
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Patricia Tallman On Star Trek DS9 Copying Babylon 5
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Patricia Tallman talks about working on cult classic science fiction series Babylon 5, Star Trek DS9, Army of Darkness and being a daring stunt woman.
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By the time DS9 came along I was all Star Trek-ed out. I was tired of the Federation BS.
B5 on the other hand was a fresh amazing story.
DS9 was completely different though.
Totally worth the watch.
Yeah theyre still puttin putty on their head. These amazing creatures from across the universe evolving in separate times at separate stages visually differing with a little putty. A little pathetic.
@@paulclissold1525 There was an attempt at addressing the every-alien-is-human-except-for-putty-on-the-head in TNG. Take it as you will, but I'll always find it kind of ridiculous given how science-y Star Trek was supposed to be and how that concept just kind of $hits all over evolution. That being said, DS9 was a good show, especially if you were tired of the Federation BS, with some of the best characters in all of Star Trek (looking at you Garak!). But Babylon 5 will always be first on my list of favorite sci-fi.
@@613harbinger316 The alternative was puppets. And the episode "Catspaw" gets criticized for many things, including the reveal at the end that the two aliens were mini-puppets. But I thought those were the best aliens in TOS. I also liked the music in that one.
Star Trek was never supposed to be a franchise! The last official Star Trek series is Star Trek: the next Generation!
Babylon 5 is a great show! The show was ahead of it time! It was also plan and map out!
Patricia still hawt as ever.
Babylon 5 managed to become epic, considering how it was practically cursed (tight budget, actors leaving, creating plot issues, messing around with the last season). The story, acting and dialogues were the strength of Babylon 5.
Considering how little B5 had compared to ST, its actually amazing how great B5 was. B5 is a Sc-Fi show which still hasn't been equaled. I'd love to see a revised B5 with better effects and space ships/battles, etc.
It's ridiculously small budget forced it to be very creative with it's use of CGI. No other scifi franchise besides Star Wars could even match the epic space battles until the middle seasons of DS9. I would be ok with a polished version of the ships, but not resigns.
DS9's space battles were mostly recut footage from other episodes. B5 might of look cheesy, but each battle had a lot of new content
Mmm, tell me about it. All these unnecessary reboots get greenlit while there's an absolute epic just waiting to be given the big budget treatment.
Indeed. Bring the CGI up to modern quality, but don't redesign any of the ships themselves. One of the standouts, to me, in B5 was the unusual designs of the spacecraft. I can't personally think of any ship prior to B5 that really resembled a Shadow ship, for one.
In this context, Bruce Boxleitner who played John Sheridan said that Babylon 5 was "The Little Space Station That Could".
I believe that Babylon 5was ahead of it's time where all shows had to compare
it wasn't. as JMS would say, it was being done in UK. just not in the US. He 'started' it (scifi-wise) in US.
"Ahead of its time" is a cliche, but could be true here. If it had come out in 2010, then by 2015 more people might be on guard against the far-Right international movement (possibly led by Putin) to authoritarian governments and a "strong man" who will put gays, minorities and women in their place (in the closet or psych ward, on the other side of the tracks, and under a man's thumb, respectively). We're still dealing with the striking of Roe v. Wade and the ignorance by men of pregnancy and miscarriage.
JMS created one of the best innovations in television, the 5-year arc. He was the first to write a big story that spanned a whole season, then multiple seasons, and finally a whole series.
I remember being confused during the first season as they slowly spun up the 5-year story. At first, it had traditional episodes where the characters have an adventure, but all the toys were put away by the end, and then the B plots started stringing together. Maybe the B plots lasted 2 or 3 episodes before resolving back to the starting state. Then we started noticing that little, throw-away scenes were stringing together into something bigger.
Then the A plots wouldn't quite put everything back the way they found it. The first time I saw that, I figured it was an oversight, and the next episode would pretend they fixed that flaw. But they didn't. Instead, they kept the change and further evolved the situation, and the changes started getting bigger.
It took a whole season to ease the audience into the concept that this wasn't a traditional, episodic series where nothing ever changes unless an actor leaves. Even then, we still didn't grasp what JMS was doing. My dad's first comment when we realized what was happening was, "it's a soap opera." But it wasn't. Soap operas didn't have a plan for where the story would go. They were more like a fan-fiction story where the author doesn't know what will happen until he sits down to write the next chapter, and he sees what appears on the paper.
Now, five-year arcs are the standard, and we finally have a format that can do an entire novel justice on the screen.
Is it just me or this woman is still pretty hot???
ardeen roy diamante she very well
She still got it.
Way hotter when she was young in star trek though.
Nope its not just you!
Well she was dating show creator JMS during the show's filming.
Fortunately both shows found their own nitch markets & were successful with fans. Love both though I lean a little more towards b5.
But its true that B5 got so much unfair slash due to this.. and spiking now thanks to Sheldon Cooper..wich because audiences of light-comedies dont like to use brains now its the worst thing ever to happen to B5 (I know people who say B5 is bad because Sheldon Cooper says so in TBBT...and im not joking)
I prefer DS9. B5 had too much religion for my taste.
The civil war plotline was amazing and unparalleled in all of sci fi though.
dont mean to start an argument.. but .. B5 too much religion? well yes it had more than i would want.. but DS9 had tons of the Emisary shit and Cisco being the profet's chosen one and so
lol
yeah.. the whole earth civil war was the best of Babylon 5 ..and still is one of the best of any sci-fi shows.. because its so real world.. how a democracy turns into a fascist opressing state.. bit by bit..and not just because so.. JMS did a brilliant job writing the entire show structure before even starting filming..
Everything is better with redheads.
gawainethefirst they are kissed by the fire
I wonder if she uses Elizabeth Schwarzkopf ...
I concur
If only this one could act, lol
"Everything is better with redheads."
Sounds like you're a fan of fanfic writer Mist of Shadows... :)
Babylon 5 was so much better than DS9.
Escylon, Yes B5 was better in some respects e.g. better character development, however e.g. In the Pale Moonlight is one the best episodes of any TV show ever. Both shows did DARK and HUMOR, something that is almost not allowed today (unless your name is McFarlane). I would not want to be without Garak, nor Sisko or Quark any more than I'd want to be without Garabaldi, Ivanova, G/kar or Londo.
I am a fan of the entire Star Trek franchise and Babylon 5. I'd have to go with Babylon 5 as a better show. I'd give Babylon 5 a 10 and DS 9 a 8.5
Babylon 5 a: 10, DS9 a: 3.5
You know what's really, REALLY messed up about "In the Pale Moonlight" though?
That was Season 6, episode 19, wherein Sisko decides to use every dirty trick in the book to get the Romulans involved in the war. He hates himself for it, but he does it because he believes it's right, and important!
But Season 6, episode 18 was "Inquisition", where we're introduced to "Sloan", a member of the Federation's Section 31, a secret organization that uses every dirty trick in the book to serve the Federation and the greater good. Sisko curses their name and swears to track them down and expose them!
So Sisko meets the Federation's secret service and is simply appalled to learn that they even exist! But the VERY NEXT EPISODE he sets off on a clandestine mission of his own, the kind of work that would make Section 31 proud! And it's not as though this rapid reversal even represents some change or growth in Sisko: next time he sees Sloan his objective continues to be to nail him to the wall.
The reversal came from having lost Betazed and having posted tons of new casualty reports.
Also, I tried watching B5. I tried so hard. But that show infuriated me to no end. I think I finally quit after the 3rd season with that stupid Valen retcon with Sinclair. My reasons below.
1. Wow, you're so clever to give the Centauri haircuts that look like Napoleon's hat. That's totally subtle and not in any way hamfisted or goofy.
2. Wow, it was such a surprise that Morden turned out to be evil. How could I have known? Oh yeah, his hair.
3. Really? Humanity never gets to get even with the Minbari? We end up being ruled over by them?
4. That romance with Delenn totally wasn't forced at all... It's totally not like we just drummed up that development for ratings even though the actress is a charisma vaccuum.
5. So your wrote yourself into a corner with those Shadow ships being on that Island. What do you do? Oh, well you blow it up with an unintentionally comical detonator.
6. Sheridan does that whole smile-and-shake-head thing it feels like I'm looking at Danny Tanner in Space.
I grew up with Scifi TNG, DS9, Voyager, SG1, SGA, SGU, Galactica, B5 Etc
SG1 is a personal favorite but B5 is the best over all.
Best Writing. the entire series is like a well crafted book. they laid the groundwork from beginning to end that things happen in one season but only make complete sense in a later season.
Characters were real they had flaws they were Deep Multilayer characters you can love them, hate them, feel sorry for them and inspired by them. the writers did not slack off. they delivered his best work for the entire series.
Great action sequences. FX may not be the best but they matched their contemporaries (note: some of the scifi I mentioned were in the late 2000s)
they were realistic. the people were realistic. you can watch it now and you can still relate.
SG1, SGA and SGU had nothing to do with each other except for the gate and a few cameos. That was a smart move.
B5 was superior in script, characters and the acting gave the series a soul that fans could relate to. Best SciFi series ever (Battlestar Galactica Reimagined gets second billing).
My thanks goes out to everyone involved in the making of Babylon 5.
No it wasn't. Not by a long shot. History remembers DS9 not Bamboozled 5
@@AloneInWonder2683 I do and i am by far not the only one not even close. B5 was very good story wise. The plot for season 1 through 4 (s5 was iffy, i'll grant that) was pretty fleshed out from the start with a defined beginning, middle and end. JMS had a backup character to fill the spot of any main character if one had to drop out for whatever reason, plus an explanation as to why that character would leave - something he had to do twice.
DS9 is good, not saying it isn't, it's my favourite ST series sharing #1 with TNG, but B5 just has that spark. There are certain scenes which evoke the same emotion today watching them as if i was watching it for the first time - DS9 doesn't do that. And that was accomplished with a crappy budget
@@AloneInWonder2683 Everyone has different taste....or perhaps none at all.
B5 was definitely superior to DS9, a cheap clone.
DS9 stole just about everything about it from B5. Let's go down the list shall we?
1. Start with the name. There's a number in the name of the show. ST never did that before.
2. The main story takes place on a really big space station, not a starship.
3. The space station is very conveniently located next to a jump point/worm hole.
4. Both stations are right next to a planet, not in "deep space".
5. Plenty of fun and diverse aliens on each station.
6. The guy running the station was a commander, not a captain.
7. Second in command was a woman for both shows.
8. When B5 got a captain to run it, Sisko on DS9 just happened to get promoted at the exact same time to captain.
9. B5 started out the main plot with a dark prophecy. DS9 had mysterious beings in the wormhole called Prophets. The Prophets were about the only part of DS9 I liked.
10. B5 built up the story into the Shadow War. DS9 did the Dominion War. I had already stopped watching DS9 by then. The Dominion War didn't seem very organic by the way people were talking about it at work.
11. Both shows had OP characters showing up every now and then and talking to mere mortals. DS9 had the Prophets. B5 had the Vorlons.
12. The head of security was a major character on each show.
13. Both shows had their dark sides, thematically. Up until DS9, ST was squeaky clean and shiny.
There were some minor differences. The two stations looked completely different.
Babylon 5 orbits Epsilon 3, which could be a real planet. DS9 orbits Bajor, which is completely made up.
B5 had telepaths. DS9 had a shapeshifter and a symbiote woman.
In DS9 the humans were the most powerful beings on the station. On B5 humans were #3 behind the Vorlons and the Minbari.
Babylon 5 is awesome!
And of coarse the mother of Star Trek, Majel Barret Roddenberry played the emporer's wife; told Londo and Vir that they would both be emporer. That was when I really believed that the hatchet was finally buried between both shows. My favorite ep was when that one race rented B5 for a night, and various people came back to life including Mr. Morden.
That was when they set up Mr. Lennier to do him wrong. They shot the last episode of the series during season 4, where Sheridan is at table with Garibaldi, Ivanova, Vir, Doctor Franklin and Delenn. Delenn mentions Lennier not being with them. So they had to figure out what would make him not be there. The best would have been had he sacrificed himself for them and their son. He refused to listen to the ghost of Mr. Morden, who was trying to be honest with him (penance?). I can't see him doing what he did and not atoning for it, especially being a member of the Religious Caste.
In a related matter, was Mr. Morden "The man who is already dead" as declared dead by EarthGov? If so, Londo needed to spare his life, and maybe convert him to serve the Centauri. Then he would have been an intermediary between Londo and the Drakh? But there isn't a last minute stay of execution, like Vir running in saying "Don't kill him; Lady Morella says to spare his life." If that had been the case, it wouldn't have been a silly little mystery.
Babylon 5 changed how sci-fi was shown on TV. Until that point shows were "every episode for themselves" type. babylon 5 introduced the Series spanning plotline. From S1 Ep1 B5 followed a plan, DS9 copied that (poorly) only later in the show and even that was inconsistent until later seasons. B5 remains one of my favorite sci-fi shows of all time.
If DS9 had done so earlier, it probably would have strengthened the lawsuit bought by those claiming DS9 plageurised Babylon 5. I guess it didn't matter in the later Seasons if the lawsuit was settled by then!
I'm getting a little tired of shows that are like a book with characters and plotlines continuing from episode to episode. Marvel Netflix suffered from that, and _Batwoman_ was unwatchable partly for that reason. I think we could use some stories that complete in one episode. "In this episode such-and-such happens" is what one person said should be the norm. At least some of these _Babylon 5_ episodes seemed to have a beginning, middle and end, even if something long-term was also going on. Excessive crossovers and multi-issue stories are what put me off of comic books in the late 1980s after reading them for 4 or 5 years.
DS9 may have tried to rip off B5, but they never came close to what B5 became.
Wow, Babylon 5 idea was stolen by Star Trek .
I love B5! I'm glad it was successful! I have the entire series on DVD!
I also got one of the movie collections, but there might be more than one that I saw on Netflix back in the day. I like the one where station residents are paying to see a holographic version of Lockley in lingerie.
Both shows ended up being completely different from each other and the only common thread was "it primarily takes place on a space station"....
I'm a huge fan of both shows in equal measure, and honestly this is the first I've heard of this controversy.. and I certainly didn't see enough similarity to draw a comparison..
Any points or complaints on this are entirely moot...
Well with Star Trek rooted in the setting of a starship that travels from one adventure to the next, and with Trek being so dominant in the TV sci-fi scene at the time (via lingering TOS fandom and TNG which had a very strong run and was winding down) - making a sci-fi show with a more fixed setting was a pretty big departure from the norm at the time, so for two shows to do it at the same time was awkward to say the least.
I'd say there were other parallels as well: the other-worldly, quasi-spiritual arcs surrounding the station commanders, for instance, or the atmosphere of political tension with the station stuck in the middle, the "big war" story arc, and the two shows even got their own starships at about the same time, plucky little ships with a lot of power that could flit around and hold their own against bigger ships due to their speed and potent firepower...
Like looking back at it now it doesn't feel like a big deal. But looking at it in terms of where B5 was at during its run - never a strong guarantee that the show would be back the next year, no long-running legacy of a massively popular ancient franchise to back it up - I can see how this would be a very big deal for folks involved in B5.
Star Trek 'maybe' copied one show for a spin off, it definitely copied other inspirations... Tons of things definitely copied both Star Trek and Star Wars (which also copied things).. They still do it to this day.. B5 probably grabbed ideas from something else before it... It's how the entertainment industry works, because nobody has had an entirely original idea in decades... So again the point is moot unless you want to put every piece of sci-fi over the past 40 to 50 years on trial..
Actually if you properly think about it DS9 was a clone of B5. J. Michael Strazinski pitched the idea of a Station with multiple cultures trying to get along but with one species that used to be the slaves of another and this station sits directly on a jump gate that can introduce new enemies or friends at a momen't notice.
That idea is basically Deep Space 9, if they didn't steal that from Babylon 5's pitch then the first thing a writer must think of when creating a show about a space station is one species keeping another subserviant and having some sort of jumpgate or wormhole right next to it.
I loved both. There were basic similarities, but B-5 was Lord of the Rings complete with Kazadhum (zahadhum) and Gandolf (Lorien) while DS9 was more like WW-II. "we stand at the bridge and none shall pass", the Rangers where a lot like the gray company.
I think of the First Ones as the Elves. They left to whatever awaits beyond the Rim. "This is yours now. And you have an obligation to do as we have done: to teach the races that will follow you, and when your time comes, as ours has, to step aside, and allow them to grow to their own destiny." I just searched Lorien and got the elves' home which was Lorien or Lothlorien!
But thanks for the Kazadhum/Za'ha'dum connection; I'd missed it. And it's no coincidence that he called them the Rangers, based on Aragorn's tribe. I just heard someone say that Captain Sheridan was originally Captain Strider, and he did become Anla'shok Na (Ranger One).
B5 was absolutely the best sci fi series ever, although the last season (5) pretty much sucked. Seasons 2-4 were the best!
Season 4 was technically the last season. They changed their minds afterwards but most of the actors were already committed to other things. So they mixed up episodes of season 4 and 5. The Deconstruction of Falling Stars is chronologically the last episode of B5 but they put it as season 4 finale. "Sleeping in Light" chronologically comes right before The DFS episode but they made it the finale of season 5. JMS is a genius. WB messed up the show .
yah sheridan was the best captain overall, if season 5 had been with ivanova as captain... ooof what a great thing that wouldve been
Crusade would have been an excellent spin off show.
I loved both for the record. To compare the two is like comparing Jazz (B5) to Popmusic (DS9) .
OriginalTharios - he did compare it though o.O
paraglide01
I like both as well.
Although DS9 was often a bit boring until the Dominion threat was introduced.
B5 rarely had that problem...
It just had an awesome combination of great actors, characters and writers that made it such a great series.
Even more impressive when you consider it's budget constraints...
Yeah, too bad Crusade was never given a chance to develop. Loved the character of Galen. Exposing more of his backstory (described in the Technomage book trilogy) would’ve been awesome.
Same here. I am a huge Babylon 5 fan (still hoping for a Blu-Ray release with updated special-effects!), and like Lee S. said, once the Dominion was brought into DS9, I was a huge fan of that series. The last two seasons of DS9 were some of the best Star Trek EVER!
OriginalTharios B5 had a better overall story arc, but the characters and a lot of their lines were a bit precious.
Babylon 5 was, and is, the best sci fi show ever. And if I was twenty years younger and you were slightly blind in one eye....... well, you know the rest
You find someone to carry you?
I would prefer conscious but i dont know what your.... pleasure threshold is xD
Blind in one eye? You have a real fancy for G'Kar? There is no shame in admitting it, all of dream of him picking us up and twirling us around like a ragdoll shouting "Mr K05H_dy"
Both Babylon 5 and Star Trek Deep Space Nine were the best Sci shows at the time....Period.
Here here!
You said it!
TNG and B5 were both FAR better shows than DS9.
DS9 had some great episodes, but 80% of it was filler or terrible stuff. It has the most boring war of any major sci-fi series.
@@lindenstromberg6859 someone didn't really see DS9 at all.
Game of Thrones ripped off B5 if you think about it.
1. Rangers - an ancient order of warriors now a joke. They watch the frontier to defend against an ancient enemy nobody believes is real
2. White Walkers = Shadows - the ancient enemy with unknown motives that rises from it's slumber to reap devastation.
3. The various powers are too distracted with their own wars.
4. JS and DT = Sheridan and Delenn lovers from opposing sides in a previous war. Both of whom are children of destiny.
I love Babylon 5, but it is essentially a reinterpretation of Lord of the Rings in space.
From the Techno-mages sensing the coming war and traveling into the west.. I mean outer rim.
To the ancient order of rangers waging a secret war against the agents of Sauron, err... the shadow.
Sheridan and Delenn mirror that union of Aragorn and Arwen.
And the disappearance/death and return from Z'ha'dum also mirrors Gandalf's death in Moria.
There are many more parallels. But it had been a while since I was able to see the whole series uninterrupted.
Babylon 5 is pretty much the single most derivative space opera on TV. I used to love this show, but I can't stand watching it anymore because of the inept writing, interchangeable characters, and obsessive focus on JMS' own hang ups with unrequited love.
Honestly, I dipped out of DS9 before the first season ended to watch Babylon 5. After watching Babylon 5 several times over the years, I've enjoyed it less and less. It quickly turned into a dumpster fire because of show runner JMS. I don't care about Star Trek anymore and can't even bring myself to watch an episode of TNG. So I have no horse in this race.
I won't say Babylon 5 is perfect and without faults, but I will say you do not appear to be without hang-ups yourself.
Nice profile pic though.
Game of Thrones is actually based on a book series called A Song of Ice and Fire.
Did not know this.
Sneaky, nefarious bastards, Berman and Piller.
Didn't follow B5 when it was on. Might have to look for it.
Babylon 5 was the better show since it's creator made the show while DS9 lost that. To me DS9 is near the bottom in the Star Trek shows along with Discovery.
I couldn't get into DS9 and I love all the other Star Trek shows. But B5 blows that DS9 out of the water! Very well written and acted. Londo is one of the best characters in SciFi history and sooo well acted.
Babylon 5 was better written though and both still came out very different products. I like both on their own merits.
I am a big ST fan and think that DS9 was the best ST series in Terms of storyline and writing. But B5 has the better Story - worse production (less Money) and worse acting as well, but definitely better writing. I do like both.
same here, it's not hard to pick apart the 2 shows and see similarities but they do still say the same thing in different ways, like the centauri occupation of Narn v the Cardassian occupation of Bajor or Gul Dukat becoming a host to the Pah Wraiths and having that messiah complex v Sheridan returning from the dead and some turning him into a messiah or how there's all these tensions that come to a head then all out war with the dominion v an age old war between the vorlons and the shadows that instigate a galactic war....godlike beings manipulating events on both shows??
hell B5 has a lot in common with Mass Effect as well
an ancient race of sentient ships called reapers who look like giant metal crabs, return every 50,000 years to ascend advanced races and wipe away their influence then return to the void leaving a lone herald, a legend of the battlefield rises up to challenge these godlike beings, Commander Shepard rallies a galactic fleet of every single faction in the galaxy even criminals to fight the reapers.....
but more was thrown into ME, like BSG and Star Trek....
the Geth are a standin for the Cylons and Borg [Borg are the basic geth, cylon centurions are the geth primes and the cylon raiders are the geth ships]
in a way you can even say the Collectors are like the iconians [see STO], the iconians have far more power than the Collectors do but their function is the same.
ruclips.net/video/6ehbTxwHjqM/видео.html
military uniforms especially the top brass look a bit like BSG
there's the failed BATS program many human biotics went through, there's a fear of biotic power in civie and military life, in B5 there's the Psi Corps who train telepaths, there's great fear of telepaths in B5....
Mass Effect nailed the hot button issues of all the best sci-fi, flipped a few things around and told a good story even if they fracked it up at the end [MEA is not calculated in this] I pretty much go for all the good Sci-Fi shows if it has depth, DS9 and B5 have depth so i love both but Patricia has a point and I respect her POV
B5 had the best storyline from start to finish. Each season had meaning for stuff that happened through the whole arc. DS9 is my favorite ST series. Especially when Worf came in at season 4
yeah - I think in Season 4 the stories changed - more from episode based stories to a longer storyline. And that's what made the series special
No one copied no one...at the time ds9 needed something different over another ship treking thru the stars..hence a space station......hell Babylon5 doesn't have the soul rights to sci fi shows with a space station.....Babylon5 was a great show but its over...get over yourself thinking you were the one and only.And so what they used the name Leta..again ....get over yourself..your babylon5 career is over.
Very nice woman...I remember night of the living death remake .🖒🖒🖒
B5 is so much better written that it's laughable. Thanks Joe!
I have always been a star trek fan but Babylon 5 was the better show and had more of a story arc and asked the questions trek could no go too...
Much more long-term character development in B5 too.
No go? Like Nog’s PDST, Section 31, the main protagonist (Sisko) being an accessory to murder in order to save the many, the effects and depiction of war, genocide/war crimes, drug dependency, religious extremism, racism... Yeah, DS9 never went places.
When B5 aired, ST was episodic. DS9 broke that mold as the show went on, generally once the darker side of DS9 got into full swing in season somewhere around season 4 but it remains that most DS9 can be played out of order as it held to mostly to the each episode has to stand on it's own formula. Voyager ran screaming back in. B5 was long term character and story development from the start.
GRRM and JMS write a lot of foreshadowing in to there works. The CBS writers for Star Trek have to follow 50 years of formula.
I loved both shows.
Anyway Patricia Talman has aged well and is still quite the beauty.
I've always found her Vorlon gills quite the alluring attraction.
B5 was far better than DS9.
More the better.. please make more sci-fi..
growing up is realizing how mid DS9 is
Babylon 5 AND DS9 were both GREAT
Loved DS9, the best show of the franchise. But yeah, Paramount, Berman and Piller stole the concept and molded it to the Trek universe.
Ds9 was good, b5 was EPIC. And now we have the Expanse, which is turning out to be epic as well :)
I didn't know there was a law suit. That and the settlement pretty much settles the issue in my mind: Paramount executives were assholes.
I always knew B5 was better than Star Trek
Done to me, I'll do it to you! Sounds like the modern Star Trek team used the same tactic that was used on the Original Series. Roddenberry originally pitched Trek to Irwin Allen (who had supposed invited Gene to lunch and questioned him over his space concept) and was later turned down. After selling Trek to Desilu Studios, Irwin Allen announced going into production on Lost in Space. Not a lot in common? Well Gene Roddenberry was initially pushing it as a Western set in the stars. Hmmmmm. Doesn't justify anything though. Personally I preferred B5 over DS9.
"Lost In Space" was always pitched as "The Space Family Robinson" - like the Swiss Family Robinson.
Babylon5 IS the very best television has ever offered... The perfect mix of acting talent and Joes amazing and beautiful words...
I loved B5 but I didn't really care much for DS9. B5 was better in every way, in my opinion.
I like the Ds9 after season 3 and before Season 7
Babylon 5 I like season 1-4 - and not so much the spin-offs.
She's right though despite the shared premise they ended up very different shows.
It Just had so much more depth and soul to me then ds9, just the B5 story in it self MY GOD............And Now i have to watch the show all over again....:)....YAY
Deep Space 9 had some brilliant episodes in the first 3 seasons or so, but the show got kind of boring after that; with the exception of some of the Ferengi episodes, and the bit with Ziyal. "In the Pale Moonlight" is the most overrated Star Trek episode ever.
I found DS9 to be a bit sterile and mechanical. It was still very good, but it was severely restricted in what it could accomplish in the "fixed" Trek Universe. Babylon 5 however wasn't based on anything specific and had much more creative opportunities including highly political story arcs and alien species that challenge the imagination.
François Caron. Which is by these endless reboots and sequels are just plain lazy by using name recognition merely as a hook. Star Trek Discovery could have been its own program, not ST and it may have been OK and could have even done more disutopian fiction.
Trying to fit a program like DS9 produced in 1995 to a series originated in 1964 (extremely sexist and calling itself progressive then) often becomes an odd fit. The original series were dealing with a real world reality of middle aged post WWII America in 1965. A show in 2017, more so, has to appeal to many nations cultural touch points, biases and probably an entirely different age group that is much more jaded.
Star Trek´s mode is idyllic, not Ironic. After Gene Roddenberry died, Paramount staff replaced the Idyllic material by Irony, war, weak personality and American marine squad narrative.
Just explains why JMS doesn't talk about it. Probably part of whatever settlement they came to was that he couldn't talk about the settlement.
I am a Trekkie in and out. Well Old School Trekkie. Nothing about Abrams or Discovery Trek interests me. But I must admit I am enticed with B5. Even when it was on. I watched a little when it was on back in the day. But wasn't really into it. Now I'm going round 2 and I am really liking the show.
I can't believe I wasted so much time on DS9! B5 is a far superior show!
Babylon 5 is way better than ds9 on so many levels.
I think if the actress playing Talia Winters, Andrea Thompson had wanted to stay, then she would have been the super-TP & TK based on a previous episode, and helped them fight the Shadows. So Patricia might not have been asked back except for a cameo.
Happy she is doing well. It was fun being security for her.
You were part of Byron's group protecting her?
The funniest stuff is the laziest stuff - Section 31, now discussed at great length among Star Trek fans because of it kinda representing the knife's edge of Star Trek becoming "grittier"...
...and it's literally just Bureau 13 with the numbers swapped around.
But the more you compare the two, the more the "borrowed" ideas become apparent. Even specific episodes - compare "Duet" in DS9 for example, to "Passing Through Gethsemane" in Babylon 5; a character arrives at the station, is revealed to have a dark and sordid past... is then revealed to actually be a good person, before being killed by those who still have a grudge, resulting in a final lesson for the protagonists about forgiveness.
B5 had characters named Lyta and Dukot, both names from Babylon 5!
This does answer the, 'who came first' question and it does highlight the duplicity and full-throated back-stabbing that has ALWAYS gone on in the entertainment industry.
What comes around must go around. Hollywood execs often must say they're not interested in an idea and then do it under a different name. There are far too many similar ideas that come to production within the same year.
In 63 Roddenberry started a two year pitch to CBS to broadcast and greenlight Star Trek through studio networks like Desilu amd MGM as Twilight Zone was spinning down. CBS strung him along for his ideas and then informed him they weren't interested. They then produced LIS as the first higher budget space travel show. Munsters and Addams Family (same year premiere), etc..., etc...
Paramount is CBS now and was by the 90s. Big shock.
Aside from being a series set on a space station and a few minor things (Lyta and Leeta), I don't think DS9 and Babylon 5 are very much alike at all. Two completely different series with completely different foci. In fact, I think B5 is the better show between the two.
"If you go to [Paramount], [your show] will die."
I liked the Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning. It was a huge nod (albeit a satirical one) to both Trek and B5. The space battle was incredible, with a Sovereign-class ship going against the Excalibur.
Just the name put me off - Pirkinning sounded pathetic.
@@tulinfirenze1990 yeah, the name is dumb, but the whole thing is making fun of the terrible Finnish translations of Star Trek. It’s why photon torpedoes are “light bubbles” and phasers are “twinklers”
Festerbester is the only sci-fi villain to ever give Alfred Bester a run for his money. And Captain Sherrypie's speeches? How could anyone hold themselves together and not fall into a ball of tears. As much as I love G'Kar's speeches, he must truly envy Sherrypie, the writing and his oration are a cut above all others.
@@beardedchimp oddly, Festerbester looks eerily familiar to a certain P-Fleet screwup. Almost as if it’s a reference to meta-casting
"They had a character named Leeta." - And also one named Dukat...
@John C. LMAO.
@John C. Yep, all the stupidity of the claims you must have _read into_ my original comment for some reason. Or are you saying that what I wrote was _factually incorrect?_ But seriously, once again: Don't you have anything better to do?
DS9 did rip off Babylon 5, and yes - I would do Patricia Tallman . Still looks awesome
It was obvious to me at the time that DS9 was a complete rip-off of B5. The title of each even has a number at the end. It wasn't just a little bit of a rip-off either. It was blatant.
DS9 stole everything from B5 except a plot. DS9 really didn't have one. They just pretty much sat around the whole time. The only things I liked about DS9 was the pilot intro with the Borg, and the times Sisko had encounters with the Prophets that lived inside the wormhole. Other than that it was really boring. It was a go-nowhere show.
DS9 ripped the wormhole from the DS9 jump gates. Up until then, ST toyed with wormholes a bit, but their bread and butter was warp drive.
B5 had Commander Sinclair. DS9 had Commander Sisko. Their names even start the same.
On B5 Sinclair left and was replaced by Capt. Sherridan. At the exact same time, they promoted Sisko to Capt. as well.
DS9 got a bit better when ST:TNG ended and they inherited a few actors from TNG.
Supposedly it got a lot better during the Dominion War but I'd already given up on it by then. Don't care and you can't lure me back.
B5 was worth me watching it through 3 times to catch all the little details. I especially wanted to compare the two episodes with Babylon 4. That was pretty amazing.
Also DS9 never had anyone of Delenn's awesome tier. I'd say their best character was Quark. He was pretty solid.
But then Quark should have become insanely wealthy running a shop that close to the only known stable wormhole. He never did. If it was B5 he would have gotten so wealthy as to present new problems. ST is always concerned about maintaining the status quo. There's almost never any character growth. Never was.
Today: Kirk and Spock developed considerable telekinesis powers on some planet with these Greek-looking TK people.
Tomorrow: Back to business as usual.
Today: Wesley Crusher synched up with The Traveler and learned how to travel to the farthest reaches of the universe in mere seconds.
Tomorrow: Back to business as usual.
And how about how B5 'borrowed' from Lord of the Rings? The Rangers, Khazad- Dum, The Shadows, and so forth. I found both B5 and DS9 both very good, DS9 being my favourite ST series. B5's major weakness was the wrap-up of the Shadow War, where the Shadows and the Vorlons join whatsisname and head 'over the rainbow,' or whatever the galactic equivalent was. It was very anti-climactic, and a big build up to a big yawn and facepalm. That's my opinion, anyways. Which character in DS9 was named 'Lita?'
I love Babylon 5, much prefer it to DS9, but I don't think it's fair to say DS9 ripped off B5... apart from them both being on a space station and having a good looking character called Lyta, they're nothing alike!
Always thought it was a myth. What similarity? Beyond Genre and Space Station. They're so different, it's unreal. Even from the start. B5 actually needed some help at first, it was hard to watch the first season (before I had seen the entire series. It's one of the few I have watched more than once, and far-and-away the best one I have watched more than once.) I would say it was three times better the second time, but you would know I was understating it. (15x the second time, down to 14x the third). Whereas most accessible shows are, like between 1.1x and .85x (slightly better, or slightly too predictable.)
Well what they stole? As she said they had a charcter Lyta, and a charcter named Dukat. They had a static space station, next to a portal (Jump Gate vs Wormhole). They have a security chief, who isn't too approachable, but best buddy with command staff, and has an insane talent for detective work. They have a race, whose power is unimaginable (Vorlons vs Wormhole Aliens) and who have an ancient enemy they need to face (Shadows vs Wraths). Both are in close proximity to a planet with a very important plot device (The Great Machine vs the Wrath Caves). Both have a major character who transforms (Delenn vs Odo). Both have an internal war as a major plot line (earth civil war vs klingon separation war), which if memory serves me right, ends in the death of the factions leader in both instances (Clarke vs what-his-face).
And finally a quick glance at the races:
Minbari were turned into Bajoran
Centauri were turned into Cardassians.
The whole occupation of Narn thing was transferred over to Bajor, so they saved a race there.
Since they didn't use the wraiths so much they needed a different type of enemy, so major part of what the shadows did in B5 they gave to the shapeshifters.
So yeah... at some point they did adjust the content to not be as blatent anymore, which is probably why it took them so long to introduce the shapeshifters. But you can clearly see that it was copied. Since JMS already said that he had the entire plot of B5 in his had, wrote the bible for it afterwards, and they had the bible for so long... You know they had all this info. And the fact that the first two seasons of DS9 were utter dog shit with The Room level acting... You also saw that it was rushed out. They needed to put this out before B5. Otherwise everyone would have seen through their shit, and it would have never drawn in so many fans. Man, I still cry laugh, when I think of the DS9 episode where they all get some disease and the commander has this utter cringe dialogue with his son, who cannot hear him. It was so bad that it became art again... Just like The Room.
Pat Tallman is great, always speaking her mind. Her memoir was a lot of fun.
Well, hey, both were great. But this is why you copyright your shit!
Also, to say they both had characters named Lyta... Not nearly as egregious as both having characters named Dukat.
LOVE this.... B5 was the ORIGINAL....
B5 was my favorite SyFy series. The Amiga NewTech Toast space CGI was so surreal. Amazing that one man wrote and produced the whole series. Think of it as "Game of Thrones" in space before Game of Thrones.
yah true, actually i love the effects in B5 a lot more than in Star Wars or Star Trek, maybe im just more used to it because i watched B5 befoe any other Sci-Fi but still, i think the explosions look way better than the others and the ships are all so unique and fun to watch, although if you look closely you can find some errors, and especially in S1 and S5 re-used scenes, just mirrored to conceal it. Especially then the Drazi and Narn bombard Centauri Prime you see this obviously, still love the series and i think it was a pretty low budget production sooo
Let me get this straight. I don't care who was first or if somebody ripped someone else off. They are not the same, they don't speak for the same people. I like them both and besides them both being "on a space station" and continuous arch, there's nothing else. They got one name the same? It was a completely different character. Maybe they took the idea, but that's it.
It took Paramount a year to say no, then they took his idea and did something they belived to be "legally distinct"...yeah, me too.
In ST Voyager they actually blow up a space station that suspiciously looks like Babylon 5...
Lyta and Leeta have virtually nothing in common aside from their names sounding similar. Leeta wasn't even introduced on DS9 until late into the third season as a bit part and was originally intended to just be a one-off character. I can't blame people for being suspicious... there are certain similarities between the two series, but you might as well say that every sci-fi show that's set on a space ship is a rip-off of Star Trek (okay, in the case of The Orville, that may be literally true, but come on).
Isn't there a saying in hollywood about there only being 7 original concepts, or something like that? At some point you just stop caring where the idea came from, and you focus on whether or not it's any good. Thankfully it was.
I loved both shows personally. But this should be a lesson to people who assume that their script is bad just because people who 'know what they are talking about' trash it. Truth is this thing happens all the time, not just in Hollywood but all over the world, the BBC are known for doing it, but it's all kept hush hush because the crooked legal system we have in the west means the more money you have, the more shit you can get away with.
I believe it. Star Trek had a reputation of just taking ideas they liked. At least Babylon 5 was way better.
Хоть Babylon 5 и DS9 довольно похожи, но темп повествовании абсолютно разный.
So now is time for Bablon to get a "revenge" by makeing a better star trek babylon 5 than cgi star trek for " kids and corporate ladder bosses ,use brains instead of cgi and its a success jus like psi core would have done.
Still b5 cant get oxygen at least they didnt get fireflied. Am enjoying the expanse at the minnie too.
WOW! She still looks great! I remember when she was on Star Trek TNG! I Liked the Leeta character and it's kinda funny how Chekov became her boss on Babylon 5!!
Lyta = B5
Leeta = DS9 dabo girl, marries Rom
@@SantomPh pardon my grammar and/or spelling. She's still good looking either way!
i really cant get over the fact that Bester is in both series too and i think GKar played ome Romulan or something once too, like the Sci-Fi legends they are
Part of the problem is that Season One of both shows were terrible. Bruce Boxleitner was so important to that show.
If B5 was terrible during Season One - why would anyone stick with it??? I enjoy Season One - I like Sinclair and the storylines. I wouldn't say any episode was bad - otherwise I would have to condemn Star Trek The Original Series as being dreadful for it's bad acting and dire story-lines.
Season ones often seem cringeworthy in retrospect just because the cast and crew are still trying to figure things out. As far as Trek goes, however, DS9 probably had the best first season out of all six series. (arguably TNG had the worst, even when compared to Discovery or Enterprise)
B5 was so much better than Star Trek, spin off and reboots will not work.
I really don't think the two shows are the some two different types of shows
The 2 Leeta characters had nothing to do with each other come on :)!
They also both had characters named Dukat.
enlighted Jedi when I heard her say that I was like ok she never watched ds9 🤣🤣
Patrick E She was on it though! She was the weapons officer on the defiant during the Season 4 premiere!
Patrick E Patricia gallman was also nana visitors stunt double on ds9
@@AlatarMorinehtar also stunt double for several folk on TNG iirc (including Dr Crusher).
That was Paramount's intent🤓😎✌🏻
Lol this is why big bang theory pisses me off. Sheldon always calls b5 derivative. I've known for years that paramount stole the idea. I always wind up yelling at the tv when he says it! Lol
You mean that the (space) elves going to the sea (of stars) when they reach a certain age and the mysterious guide who turns out to secretly be an angelic being and the grizzled warrior who turns out to be a prophesised leader and returning home after winning the great war to find that one of the lesser evils that served the great evil has infiltrated and corrupted your homeland were all entirely original ideas when JMS had them, and Peter Jackson ripped him off for that movie trilogy?
B5's originality rests in its being one of, if not the, first major "arc" series - a "110 episode mini-series". The very idea of there being a clear order in which episodes need to be seen rather than it being something that can be varied according to the whims of the broadcaster was something previously restricted to miniseries, 2- or 3-parters, season finales, and soaps.
When it comes to the details, B5 draws a lot on other sources.
I just realize the DS9 Lyta the Dabo girl wasnt she also a redhead
Nobody seems to be caring, that b5 ripped off the next generation.
Blend the two and we get "DEEP BABYLON 9".
And by copied you mean, did it fucking way better.
Idk about you, but she aged gracefully
didnt stop you working on ds9 patricia if you thought it was arogant and a rip off!
Really not sure that using the same idea of setting a scifi show on a space station counts as ripping off. From the get go the two shows were radically different. It's almost like "Gasp! Your show is about humans! My script was about humans! You totally ripped off my idea!" No, not really 'ripping off' requires copying a little more detail than that.
If you try rewriting B5 to fit into the TNG-era Star Trek universe, it's not hard to end up with something that looks a lot like DS9.
@@rmsgrey Indeed - he's just being a dick.
She claims there was a lawsuit but there wasn't.
I bought the lie that ds9 was first. I gave B5 a chance, and loved it. I wish that I had given the benefit of doubt to Mike Straczinsky first (pardon spelling), but brand loyalty to the Trek label was hard to get away from. Thanks Patricia!
I think B5 was better than DS9 anyway
B5 better than DS9, by a long way.
Star Trek Deep Space 9 is available on Netflix. I have never seen any offering of Babylon 5 even though it is much older than other SF series. Why is that?
It's just a thought but there are a lot of political and social issues that run through Babylon 5 that mirrors or resonates with our current time period such as xenophobia, authoritarian or unscrupulous leaders, and civil disruption. This may make our corporate overlords and other bigwigs nervous about showing it too easily.
Hmm, let me think. A show from the flagship franchise of a major network, compared to a show originally funded by a network that folded during the show's run, then picked up by a second network, where internal politics ended up leading to an attempt to bury the franchise, followed by an attempt to revive the franchise on a third network where the people in charge didn't want to do a show set in space (and why would a channel calling itself SciFi want to set shows in space, anyway?).
One of them has a major corporate entity heavily invested in its ongoing popularity; the other... Well, WB are happy to keep selling DVDs (S1 was released on home video as an experiment, and massively outperformed projected sales figures, so the home media releases have kept rolling).
Hulu had the first few seasons for a while. Apparently a site called go90.com was streaming all 110 episodes as of April last year for free (ads at the start), though rumours at the time were that the deal was only valid for a year. Also, both sites' streaming are US only.
You can also pay for streaming on a number of sites - iTunes, Amazon, VUDU, RUclips...
I suppose a complementary question would be "How come people charge for Babylon 5 directly, while Deep Space 9 gets given away for free?"
Intresting... thanks for that.
Lyta Alexander was by far my favourite character.