Things Persona Fans Got Wrong
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- Опубликовано: 28 май 2024
- within the persona franchise there are some characters or fan discussion that causes some confusion with players and so i discuss weather or not characters are gay or trans and weather or not the phantom theives and sees are actually friends
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The SEES cast is my favorite because their relationships with each other feels the most realistic. Their friendship grows over time and we get to see alot of conflict within the group. They don't always agree on everything.
I do think the “p3 and 5 cast don’t feel like friends” is a statement that ignores the intention of the writers for sees, they start off as co-workers before gradually becoming close friends through the development. P5 it’s literally a case of screen time on some characters, some of them don’t interact with others so it ends up feeling strange at times because of it, this is one of the few things strikers does well at with them
"Realistic"
Cause a game where you shoot yourself to summon a Stand is Realistic.
The implication I always got from Kanji was that he was afraid of being perceived as gay because of his interests, not that he was actually gay himself. If anything, he’s bi, and that’s still assuming a lot. Like you said, it ultimately doesn’t matter, but before I played it, people sold Kanji to me as “the gay party member,” when that really isn’t true. It also surprises me how people still think Naoto is trans even after they’ve played the game.
Hearing your corrections of these misconceptions was genuinely refreshing to hear.
"Don't mess with us Persona fans, we didn't play our own games" -Twitter
Man the amount of times I've been SCREAMED at for saying Naoto isn't trans
stupid people usually yell cuz if not their opinions arent heard
Yeah, naoto is just a girl posing as a guy, I don't know what part of that is so hard to get
Those people are literally part of the same demographic of Persona fans who has never played any of the games 😭
It's ok to have headcanons, but not when they contradict what the character represents in the story. I just don't talk about it much because I know passionate fans of this idea would kill me ;-;
@@cranburrey Yeah like, I don't play the games (I watch gameplays because I can't buy the games ;-;) but even I know she's not trans!
It's quite easier to understand it if you know a bit of the Japanese perspective on how Naoto and Kanji were portrayed (people tend to forget that the story was written by Japanese people back in the 00's and then translated into English, which means a bit of understanding of how these things work in JAPAN historically is necessary).
Naoto is a picture-perfect case of a woman trying to be taken seriously in a career mostly seen as typically masculine in Japan, which often involves them trying to emulate masculine behavior and dressing style. That has been a trope in Japanese media for **decades** (... And more, if we consider old tales in Japan of people, and even Gods, dressing as the other genre for running away or for espionage, for example). Japan has this VERY old trope of crossdressing for various reasons that have nothing to do with them being trans, but for them to 'blend in'/'go unnoticed'/'don't look as odd'. For example: A girl, who happens to have typically masculine hobbies, could choose to crossdress as a boy in public. Not because she 'feels that she is a boy' but because if she simply 'looks' like one while doing x thing she won't be stared at. 'Conforming to the norm', even if only at a surface level, will make people focus less on 'what she is (a girl, actually)' and more on 'what she likes/is doing (cars or tech, or in this case, that she is a detective doing her job'). Very often that same person doesn't even want to be acknowledged for who/what they actually are, but what they DO. That's the point of crossdressing here.
Kanji is another interesting case. Japan's ideal of a man is an elegant soft-featured lad, who is both soft-spoken but firm when necessary (much like the protagonist of the games). If you just look at their media overall, they have historically struggled with the... Uh, more 'muscular'/manly men, and the concept of gay people (not saying that Kanji is gay, but you get what I mean), often outright making a mockery out of them in some cases (looking at you beach guys in P5). Kanji is the completely opposite of the Japanese ideal, at least externally: he is loud, he is bold, he is 'rude', and he is 'aggressive'... And yet, he is actually a complete softie inside. He only puts a front out of fear of being mocked for loving stuff not typically seen as masculine, and is loyal to a fault, making his writing one of the best in the game. I personally love how Kanji is a clear portrayal of how much the Japanese view of characters like Kanji, and masculinity in general, has matured over the years amongst some Japanese people. Granted, it's still **getting there**, but for something written back in the 00's it's immense progress for a game made for Japanese teenagers to play.
People often forget how much value Japanese culture puts into 'blending in'/'conforming to the norm', and how that permeates all of their art/media/writing. And they also forget to look at the year something was written for additional cultural context. We're too used to hearing of news and discussions on gender and sexuality in the USA/Europe... But a lot of newcomers into media from non-English speaking countries don't really bother to study how those things are perceived/have developed elsewhere, and immediately assume it's the same all over the world since forever. It's like trying to use Google Translate in the wrong language and complaining you don't get what the text means.
im glad someone has pointed this out, these games are made for japanese people and it wasnt until very recently did they give any attention or care to western fans
people saying naoto is trans has always confused me, since the game paints a very clear and easy picture of what shes going through. she crossdressed as a compromise because she was insecure about her femininity. she was literally forcing herself to be something she wasnt. if only persona fans nowadays had the sense to like, actually play a persona game.
That moment when you describe gender dysphoria to a T
@@dhans9662 its kinda insane how you can watch a video made by a trans person and i debunk with footage why noato isnt trans, and show that the canon postgame and epilouge shows her embracing her femininity because thats who she is
how you can say that the game is describing dysphoria is insane
@@ACursedJessie You arent the CEO of trans people 💀
@@dhans9662 i never said i was and your being incredibly disingenuous about Naoto, you said the commenter described gender dysphoria to a tee, to summarise the commenters opinion in bullet points for you:
-the head canon has always confused me
-the game is very easy to understand on why she was crossdresser
-Naoto was forcing herself to appear as a man which she is not
-if only persona fans would play there games
at what point within the comment you thought they had described gender dysphoria is beneath me if genuinely you think all crossdressers should be trans as i said at 8:14 your being bigoted and unaccepting of crossdressers.
@@ACursedJessie You ain't the CEO of trans people 🗣🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥🔥
the fact that people genuinely believe all this stuff just proves Persona 4’s overall point, it’s actually hilarious
Given point that the midnight channel just shows the part of people that the public *wants* to see, no matter how true or false they are, or how realistic they are, It’s like Persona fans fell into the trap that Atlus may or may not have planted.
You forgot that people who say 3 and 5 cast aren’t friends don’t have friends lmao
Not close friends
@@oddmystic9343they are VERY much close friends
@@shroomfruit345more like coworkers than friends they remind me of the avengers coworkers but will help each other we don't see ryuji hanging with yuskue or haru hanging out with makoto p5r kinda fixed it with the showtime and added some extra scenes with the Phantom thieves but it wasn't enough for me to say they're good friends
@@oddmystic9343 man Ryuji and Yusuke are some of the biggest bros in the cast, they hang out all the time
That was mean
Assuming that Kanji is gay just because he likes feminine things is bigoted in itself.
like, wasn't the whole point of his arc that he didn't want to be seen as gay just because he likes things considered "feminine"??
I mean, he might be bi. His attraction to Naoto, fully believing she was a guy, was a big reason he started questioning himself. But to label him in the first place is to miss the whole point of his character arc.
Persona fans not playing their own games
This is why they lack literacy
Oh, and i almost forgot
*Twitter.*
They're just obsessive freaks
Another thing I'd like to the "Persoma 3 and 5 cast don't feel like friends" part. Litterally every friend group on the planet operates/interact differently from one another.
Idk what's so hard for people to understand and just project that they don't feel like real friends because "Uuh that's not how I interact with my friends".
It's not just projection imo, every friendgroup is different but there are a lot of similarities and commonalities that make a group of people well, a friendgroup and in P3/5 some of those are just kinda lacking
In the answer dlc. Sees was gonna kill each other over a key cause one side want to go back and face nyx again to get p3mc back and the other wanna move on with they're lives akihiko and ken and the others are neutral junpei koromaru and fuuka even yukari was jealous of aigis cause she was chosen as a wild card user and in p3 when mitsuru and yukari was alone in the start of Tartarus they're conversation was awkward and junpei getting jealous over the mc instead of trying to get stronger than him
@@oddmystic9343 bro doesn’t understand what character development and flawed people are 💀
@@oddmystic9343Yes. Yukari and Mitsuru were awkward at first. Their relationship needed time to develop. Also yes, SEES was willing to fight each other (they make it clear nobody would die). There was literally no other way and Junpei's feelings of inferiority are natural. No matter how strong he got, Makoto was always better than him
I've been accused of being transphobic by someone saying Naoto is trans when they've never played the game. I asked her why you'd have that opinion given she's never even played the game and was told Twitter friends told her so she believes them when they say Naoto is trans.
many such cases!
the "persona fans have never played a persona game" argument will never not work, oh jeez folks can't read
I see Kenji as bisexual, as you said he was attracted to Naoto before and after she revealed she was a girl, showing that he doesn't care what gender she is, he likes her regardless.
We love kanji fr fr. He the best
I think people say p3/5 arent friends because they are basing it on the friendship of 4. 4 is the most "anime power of friendship" of the 3, and the shadow selves force the characters to be more vulnerable immediately, so they already have a baseline. Its also a small town so they don't have much reason to not all group up.
In 3 they thave preestablished things, but bond through hardships with the one's they weren't as close too. You can argue its more natural. Because they aren't always in one big group like 4 people seem to think they aren't all friends.
In p5 they go all in on phantom thieves so it looks like just a work thing, but thats also how they bond and get to play off each other.
Tldr. P4s frienship is so exaggerated people think 3 and 5 aren't real/as strong.
The overall thing about P3 cast being friends or not it's kinda debatible, and i get why everyone have different opinions on that. What really bugs me is when some people throw the "Junpei is the worst MC best friend 😭😭" when the game itself never try to sell him like that. Like, yes, as you said in the video, they do hang out and talk in class and stuff, but i think it's unfair to compare him to Yosuke and Ryuji since they ARE made for actually do the "best friend" role.
I know you didn't mention this in the video but i wanted to say it, because some Persona fans throw trash to Junpei just because he don't fullfil a role he didn't even have 😭😭
if you go to the shrine and go to get a blessing for social links every member of sees is under the category friends, idek how people cannot see them as friends
i understand not liking characters, junpei can be unlikable at times, so can Yosuke with his pervyness and ryuji with his “For real?”’ness
Ok listen, after this I do believe you on the P5 cast are friends, but the game doesn't give me a reason to say they're good friends. There is the whole Ryuji and Ann used to be friends thing that's brought up very little once during a text message and never talked about again, which is something I just wanted to see more of, but there was the Ann shouting for Ryuji was pretty cool but I'm never really shown anything to tell me that she really does care, it's almost like they expect me to feel it without making any extra work to show me it. The Yusuke, Futaba thing is fun for me. Her still holding a grudge against him for the Neo Featherman thing. Morgana and Haru having a very close relationship with the Okumura arc and all probably being my most compelling relationship in the game, and the one passing remark Ann has with Futaba about rhythm games, and that's it. I just don't feel like I see enough of it to really think that they're good friends, just kinda close I guess.
True! Even with maruki's altered reality, most of the phantom thieves ideal realities don't even involve each other that much outside of the circumstances that they're in. Heck, even ryuji starts forgetting his friendship with joker, and in the one of the bad endings where you fail to steal maruki's treasure, no one even bothers to check on joker in his infinite sleep.
friends are not perfect. There's your answer! They are good friends because they don't hide their flaws from each other and are capable of calling someone out for their bullshit! Friends fight, argue, pick on each other, make fun of each other. As long as nothing is hateful and everyone knows they are comfortable, they are good friends. Friends will not all be the same.
@@laraprisma6381 ok here's the thing, the 3 and 4 cast calls each other out on their flaws, Chie charging Ted's suit to Yosuke is one example, another one with Mitsuru scolding Akihiko for being so into fighting. Yes saying that all friend groups are the same is wrong but I'm not saying that, what I'm saying is there isn't nearly enough bonding moments with the group outside of phantom thief related things, heck the rewards after a palace feel like a reward for a job rather than a genuine time together outside of helping Futaba get over her shyness around people
0:47 Ah yes, P4G for Dreamcast, I played a lot back in the day.
im shocked that my top 3 dreamcast games are persona 4 golden, code veronica and dino crisis
I think that saying that 3 and 5's cast are not friends isn't the right way to define it.
I rather say that if it wasn't for the situation that they were thrown in togheter they wouldn't be as close as they are, or wouldn't even talk to eachother as much.
I could see Makoto talking to Yukari and Junpei or Joker talking to Ryuji and Ann, but that's it.
Even P3 aknowledges this, mainly by it's bad ending, where after having their memories about the dark hour erased, Makoto, Junpei and Yukari went to Karaoke but each one of them is doing their own thing without paying much attention to eachother. While the others, like Akihiko and Mitsuru are viewed like strangers.
People probably view P4's cast as more friendly with eachother due to the vibe of the game. Where the main issue isn't as present as the other games, it only gets serious after Nanako gets kidnapped. Before that, the game is more like a slice of life with a fun dungeon sometimes.
Before someone gets pissed at me, I do not agree with the explanation that I wrote. It's just that, an explanation on why people probably don't view P3's and P5's cast as friends, or at least why they say that P4's cast are better in terms of friendship.
I may agree that in the original P3 Fes version, Makoto exclusively isn't that close with his male doormates, but that's it.
Great video and i didnt know people thought sees and the phantom thieves weren't friends anyway keep up the great work
I was 14 when I first played P4G on Steam back in 2020. Back then, I was one of those people who misread Naoto’s arc as her being trans, but only because I had misunderstood the context of what being trans truly meant. At the time, I assumed that if a person wanted to dress like a guy, it meant that they wanted to *be* a guy, and due to that I was one of many who disliked how she was treated as a cis woman throughout the rest of the game. Of course, now I understand gender is far more complex than a simple binary and people can express it in their own unique ways (after all, realizing I was bi and trans as well very much helped with understanding in that regard)
I feel a lot of people who tend to claim these things are those who don’t have a full understanding of what being queer means in society and attribute stereotypes to characters because they have been told by others it’s true. In a way, they’re reinforcing the problems the game presents through the TV World. I’ve always been of the “Kanji is bi” crowd because of how they acted around Naoto before the reveal as well as after, but like you said, this doesn’t define who he is as a character in my mind. I like his soft side because it shows that a person can still be a man and not do manly things. A woman can be a woman and not do feminine things. Your identity is defined by what *you* want it to be, not by what society says it is. In learning to live with reality and accept our repressed insecurities, we can be our true selves. That’s the truth that I feel Persona 4 wanted us to reach out to
glad someone said it so i didn't have too 😅
all joking aside, this video is a certified banger and i can't wait to see what else you have in store! keep up the amazing work!
Can't tell you how sick of the vitriol that comes from people when you say Naoto isn't trans/Kanji isn't gay.
Kanji is simply supposed to be "Its ok for boys to like feminine things."
with Naoto being simply "Its ok for girls to like masculine things."
That's just putting it simply tho, but still fairly accurate.
And Yosuke, he's just an example of a closet bi/gay. :p
This was a nice lil video that touched that! Now if only more people would just see and accept the fact.
Bro ryuji got harassed by a gay couple,he did nothing to them
nah, the gay couple only want a pet monke.
Yes sirr
faqing monke
Loved this vid, but god the thumbnail keeps making me crack up
As Dojima would say
Great video. 😀
I legit got cursed out and called a transphobe for correcting someone that Naoto was a woman that dressed as a man. I even pointed out the epilogue. Thank you for making this video and *not* being one of _those_ “fans”…
"I KNOW MOST VIEWERS HAVENT LEFT THEIR GOON CAVES IN WEEKS"
I feel like another thing that a lot of people don't get about, Naoto and, Kanji is that their shadows just like everyone else's shadows are exaggerations of the aspects they don't like about themselves. That's why, Shadow Kanji is the living embodiment of a gay stereotype it's supposed to essentially mock who he is. amplifiing the trait of himself he tries to deny. Everyone's shadow was like this so saying, Kanji is gay or, Naoto is trans is almost like accepting the mockery that, their shadows are as the real versions as these characters.
First Ann and Ryuji are literally childhood friends since childhood.
ur the goat for making this 💯
ty 🙏
I think there could be an argument about SEES being friends on the original persona 3 givem that you can only be in a romantic relationship with girls and can't event talk to the boys, but the movies and especially reload fixed that, the scenes where some character cooks for others or when all the boys play together they feel like really close friends, also the final koromaru walk that is followed by seeing mitsuru and yukari hangin out the next day
Hope you are well Jessie!
Sometimes people just like to talk a lot of shit, there are so many ways to properly consume the franchise and they rather do nothing and stick with their make believe headcanons that they somehow created after reading a single post on twitter / tlumbr for 5 min ( of course if they can read at all......) that they swear it is true, and saying that the P3 & P5 cast aren't really friends is just absurd, they can't possably be serious......
People say they act like coworkers more than friends and I kinda agree
@@oddmystic9343 They are just a pretty normal friend group if you ask me, but the weird thing about this take is that these games are all about making bonds and friendship, how the heck would the main cast not be friends? just because they only got close to each other due to shadow shenanigans doesn’t mean they didn’t become good friends along the way, some of them might not interact as much with each other, but that’s just normal large friend group behavior, they even do normal friends stuff that isn’t even related to shadows
Hey! Just stumbled upon your channel. I like your content! I’ll sub! Happy pride month!
glad you like my content :3
I just wanna say even before you mentioned you were trans I already assumed you were a girl because your voice is already super convincing. I envy you 😭😭
Also nice video it was very entertaining
I haven’t played p4, I’ve played Reload, and I’m in the middle of P5R, and uh
Yeah I don’t think I can see them as not being friends lmao
its so funny how your only just getting into the games and are realising it goes to show doesn't it
@@ACursedJessie With how often I but heads with the most popular stances in the fandom (informed or otherwise), I recently started considering that in my autistic insistence on diving deeply into what makes characters tick, I’ve come to know too much, that I look so much at things like Arcana, Persona mythology and what’s being criticised about Japan’s treatment of certain groups, that characters end up looking to me as what others might consider as just the sum of their parts.
Thanks to you, I’m not sure anymore. Now I’m starting to consider turning around to those people and saying “no, you don’t know enough and as a result, you miss the point the games and the characters within are trying to make”
@@RedJLP glad i opened your eyes, yk sometimes being an asshole is a good thing
The persona Fandom is the equivalent to the dragon ball fandom. They don't play/watch their series
raw
Also to say i just got done with persona 5 royal and i got the original ending and im to lazy to see the last-last palace
i had that shit happen to me too and that second playthrough that i had to do where everything was the same it felt like alot of the magic from persona 5 was missing
Now I'm thinking of playing persona 4 golden now
@@RyanBritman its peak
5:29 someone's feisty about sees takes
"Revolting" seems like a good blanket term to cover the thumbnail.
i mean the video is about misconceptions, people think those characters are trans and gay easiest way to do it
And, seriously, the persona series is really just of its time like this series has been going on since the late 90s, so yeah
Honestly, as someone who’s played 4 golden 3 times through at this point and it generally being my favourite, I think that they were being a bit overambitious with Naoto’s dungeon in particular. I don't think she’d trans, that much is very well established. I just feel that the idea of being a kid was a little underdeveloped but the idea of her being a woman who can't achieve that same as a man was well done, I just wish it was focused on that so she wouldn't be so miss understood (tho that will happen either way lol). Next up is Kanji (gonna be biased cause he’s my favourite lol). Kanji’s sexuality doesn't matter to his story, dungeon and social link. Yes, his sexuality is a point in his story, both as mocking him due to people’s perception of him and generally him exploring his masculinity. Whether he’s straight, gay, bi or just likes anyone then it doesn't matter. Ultimately his story is about being comfortable that people won't always like you for who you are (Plus him going right into the waters to find a toy was adorable). The last point is Yosuke, do I think that him being a closeted gay could be interesting? Yes. Was that the story that was told? No. So ultimately that's what matters. I do like the idea of being able to date the male characters as a male (and female if they make a female MC again) and I think Yosuke’s route could be put back in for a remake of 4 for fan service or just to give you an give him a layer to his story but is far from mandatory.
Overall, I love this game lol. As a gay dude, this game helped me to remember the importance of not having to be defined by what people think of you and that everyone has ugly parts to them that they aren't proud of but shunning those parts won’t fix them. So yeah, also I’m decently new to Persona and have only really gone through Persona 3, 4, and 5 (and hopefully 1 and both of 2 soon) so take my opinions with a grain of salt
people saying that the persona series is homophobic while you can be gay in persona 2 it actually funny
look at the interviews of persona 2 they made you be able to date jun for fujoshi (rotten girl) yaoi shippers not actually because they wanted to do a gay character
I like how literally 80 percent of these takes can be solved by PLAYING THE GAME 🥹
persona fans are experts at not playing the games they "like"
W goku black pfp
@@ACursedJessie presona q and q2
It's funny that the title is past tense, as if "fans" aren't still being wrong.
-
I don't know if saying "Ryuji is homophobic" is exactly right, as expressing you're not okay with being forced into something seems fairly reasonable. Though that scene definitely deserved to be changed, as the original implication made Joker walking away pretty messed up. Like "Oh it's just dressing up, you're fine." VS. "Oh my friend is about to be violated. Anyway."
its the situation/ story around him that was homophobic not him as a character
@@ACursedJessie Ah okay, then yeah.
reminds me of my lil sis talking back at me when you said ding dong.
thought you’d bring up Tatsuya and Jun
1) modern persona fans (the people the video is intended for) have zero interest with the first two persona games
2) tatsuya and Jun's relationship was fanservice for fujoshi japanese female fans (fujoshi means rotten girl)
3) if you look at interviews they have spoken that they created that relationship not for representation however it was to sell to the yaoi enjoyers
i may make a video in the future on things about those games but it has an extremely limited appeal as my videos and the general audience for persona content are newer fans
I want your take on this, is a trans-woman who is also lesbian just essentially back at square one? And if you are a trans-woman and like other women does this mean you would be straight?
this has nothing to do with my video, please do not comment something like this under my channel again
What he do
What is blud waffling about
@@ACursedJessie looks like he struck a nerve
@@AntiRiku its weird and out of context
people saying Naoto is trans and Kanji is gay missed the entire point persona 4 tries to make.
wait, was this not obvious before or do people just not play the game??
If you've ever played Danganronpa, it's sorta like Chihiro in that game. People either haven't played or willingly ignore things to suit their beliefs
yes
While I did interpret Kanji as bi I know that was never the point of his character. It was that your sexuality and your interests aren’t intertwined and shouldn’t be judged for them anyway. I always liked p4 for that message
While I did interpret Kanji as bi I know that was never the point of his character. It was that your sexuality and your interests aren’t intertwined and shouldn’t be judged for them anyway.
I think people just want iconic representation they're just pick famous characters like when they tried with Haruhi from Ouran host club, Samus from metroid, and even in persona its not true it gets ignoring, when people say things like that since they don't see the whole characters just small part they want to see.
this is a trend i will never understand
@@ACursedJessie me either
I can't even watch the Naoto Dungeon cutscene without cringing these days.
Why?
I cringe to it all the time to it
I am pretty sure Kanji is bi or at least the intended interpretation is that. He does show interest in Naoto during the time he thinks Naoto is male. But he also does have problems with how to wrap his head around gender since he grew up as the son of a textile shop family and was bullied for liking sewing.
And I don't know why this is treated as weird since Yosuke being a romance route even if it was cut also means Yu is bi and it wouldn't even be the first time Persona had a bi character because Tatsuya is bi and Jun is gay. They even have demons be homophobic if you choose Jun as a partner. That's about as cut and dry as it comes.
Naoto is more of a case of internalized misogyny that was so bad that she would rather get a sex change than be a woman, but the cause of it is that she feels like her idealized self can't be a woman.
But I think how Japan handles depictions of gay characters is very different from the west, hell most Japanese games until the 2010s that had gay characters or even mildly queer characters, were censored in overseas releases. The most poster boy example who is Sahara in Animal Crossing where Nintendo of America decided boys can't have eyelashes so now Sahara is a girl.
But now that Japan is trying to appeal more to the west they're actually put in a very awkward spot. They don't want backlash for having queer characters, but they also don't want backlash for not having queer characters. Then you have Uchikoshi and Kodaka who decided to stop giving a shit only to have dumbasses on Twitter call then California girls.
But the important thing is don't buy into the horseshit people spew. Historically games from Japan with queer characters have been censored in the West. Japan thinks about queer characters different, but they also don't have a rabid religious culture that will implode if gay people exist.
For me, it isn’t that P3 and P5 aren’t friends, it’s that P4 has such a strong sense of connection with each other that it feels the most authentic when compared to the other 2. Not a reason to say the other 2 are not friends though, the dynamics are clearly there.
How? I'm honestly sorta curious on this? Yeah the P4 cast felt like friends but to me it was that superficial kind where you graduate and never talk again
narukami came back to inaba like 3 times, just because you and your friends arent like that doesn't invalidate that they are friends
Honestly, I really don't mind what other people think about these characters, for example I think ShuAke is an insane ship but if someone else ships it fine by me, if people could just stop caring about what others think then thats fine. As long as you aren't putting forwards completely insane out of character ideas towards characters I really don't mind
wtf is shuake
@@ACursedJessie Shipping of Joker and akechi, the shu part comes from the japanese word for protagonist I think
WAIT WHEN WAS IT CANON THAT NAOTO IS HALF BRITISH?
always has been
how to repost RUclips videos
just share the video around lol
@@ACursedJessie if I post this on twitter I'll get cooked but tiktok might agree with you more
ive posted my thumbnail on twitter nobody was shitty just dont screen record my video a timestamped link should work
With the persona series, it's just very of its time, you know. At least, that's my excuse. I used to kind of justify all the stuff that got wrong.
its a period piece, not a product of its time
@@ACursedJessie Yeah, I can agree with that. You're right
Another thing Persona fans get wrong is saying Akechi is gay when he's a Pancakesexual.
many such cases
Something which I wanna note about Naoto, she didn't want to be a boy JUST because of sexism, she idolized boys from the detective books she used to read from her grandfather and wanted to be like them
i idolise nam’s compendium, it doesn’t mean i wanna be my boyfriend
just because you idolise someone it doesn’t mean you have to be just like them
@@ACursedJessie I never said that, but for many people they definitely would want to be like the people they idolise, especially at a very young age, like I wanted to be canadian just because my personal youtuber who I grew up with was canadian, heck Naoto herself even says that her being female doesn't fit with her ideal image of a detective and THEN talks about the sexism in the police force afterwards too, so while yes sexism is a part in it, it's her own idea of what an ideal detective is, most likely due to the books she used to read (I'm pretty sure she outright mentions the books and how she wanted to be like the males in them)
Persona 2 has 3 gay characters in the cast
look up interviews on why Jun is gay in persona 2
the answer is fan service and not because they wanted positive representation japan has this fenomanon and word for fangirls obsessed with Yoai called Fujoshi
also modern persona fans dont care for non calendar system games meaning even if they were the queerest games in the franchise they have no interest
Spot on commentary. Now we just need Atlus to remove "I'm glad you're a girl" as a requirement for romancing Naoto.
Also the P4 anime is effing hilarious, everyone should watch it even if they don't care about Persona.
ive used the p4 anime as an entry point to help people get into the franchise cuz prologue is something even i struggled with on my first playthrough
Ryuji was literally coerced in crossdressing in Royal. Then he had the gall to want to avoid further interactions, while they continued to persue him after he'd already made his feelings clear; which given their previous engagement, could be traumatic, and substantiate harassment. How on Earth is this homophobia?
i said they changed the characters in royal, because in the original they are just two gay men harassing a boy by flirting with him
@@ACursedJessie Apologies, I misinterepreted what you said, as I was tired.
That said, it was phrased awkwardly. Even on rewatch, it sounds like you're suggesting that Ryuji was homophobic in vanilla, when he was victimized, and it was Atlus's potrayal of homosexuality that was problematic; which they failed to properly resolve in Royal.
it was a situation revolving around ryuji, not himself as a character is homophobic
There are times when I honestly wish more people in the fandom were willing to take a "death of the author" approach when looking at this stuff.
I personally interpreted Naoto as being a closeted non-binary person who hasn't quite figured it out yet. They try living as a male (partly because of societal stigma against female police officers, but also because they idolise the male detectives in the books they read and wanted to be more like them). In their social link, they realise being male isn't working out and decide to try out their feminine side a bit more. However, in a number of additional scenes in golden (particularly the date scenes) they tell you that they still don't feel like that's entirely right, but that they're sure they'll eventually figure things out in the future. As a non-binary myself, this is something I've gone through in, and I feel like I can recognise many of Naoto's thoughts, and so I interpret them as a closeted non-binary.
With that being said, that is just my personal interpretation. Everyone else who plays the game will have their own interpretations. Some will play the game and interpret Naoto as non-binary, some will interpret Naoto as a cis woman and some will interpret Naoto as a trans man. And all of these interpretations, provided they aren't in bad faith, are perfectly valid. I am perfectly willing to admit that the developers likely didn't intend for Naoto to be non-binary, but that doesn't matter to me, because my interpretation still exists for me, and has brought me plenty of comfort and happy memories, none of which can be taken away. Similarly, I know plenty of trans people who love and identify with Naoto's struggle with gender, and I know plenty of cis people who identify with Naoto's struggle with mysoginy. All of these interpretations, whether intended by the developers or not, have given people comfort and good memories, and are perfectly valid in their own way, and I feel that telling people that they're wrong, or that they clearly didn't understand the message is reductive. Just because someone reads something differently from how you do, or from how the author meant it to be read, that doesn't mean they're wrong about it, it means they're creative enough to see a piece of media through their own eyes and apply their own meaning.
Now to be clear, I also don't agree with people who automatically accuse people who didn't read Naoto of Kanji as queer of being homo/transphobic. There are certainly cases where that has happened, but viewing the two of them as cishet is also a perfectly fine perspective to have (provided it isn't for bad faith reasons). My point isn't that having this perspective is wrong, it's that the argument that "any perspective that doesn't completely line up with the authors vision is wrong" is reductive, and honestly quite closed minded.
To any Persona who have made it this far into the comment, no matter which side you fall on the argument, allow me to suggest something. When you see a take that you disagree with (which isn't clearly made in bad faith), don't automatically try and debunk it. Instead, discuss the take. Ask them why they feel that way, and try to understand their viewpoint. You may well still disagree with it at the end of the day, but you will have gained more perspective and understanding. And who knows, your own views may be challenged in ways you hadn't expected.
At the end of the day though, this is just my perspective, and anyone else is free to agree of disagree.
Also, just want to make it clear that this isn't an attack on the video. I think there ard plenty of good points made, I just don't agree that reading Kanji as gay or Naoto as trans is inherently wrong. That's all.
although i admire your ability to argue your views well, this video is more of a dig on the people who only watch playthroughs or recaps of the games and believe their head-canons as true
these takes on character identity and sexuality, its reddit af
@@ACursedJessie Fair enough, and I do agree you should definitely experience the media itself before you ride and die on it. The comment was also more towards people who aggressively try and force their views on others rather than on the video itself
forcing your views upon others is bad :)
naoto and chihiro fujisaki both got such a short end of the "poorly worded translation of a game by someone who doesn't realize they could accidentally come off as trans writing" stick. while it's very clear what the original intention was I can still SEE where people can get the wrong idea that they're meant to be trans because the translators and localizers wouldn't think of that cuz late 2000's and stuff
well naoto just isnt trans i rlly dunno where anyone can get that from unless all crossdressers have to be trans which in that case is really close minded and bigoted or you didnt pay attention to the line where shes more focused on being a good detective and she crossdressed and binded her chest to be seen as a man, i like that characters in japanese media like naoto exist due to gender neutral names and androgyny and also isn’t chihiro that cute trap from dragonrompa or whatever those games are called
You're missing the point. Obviously Kanji and Naoto are not "canonically" gay and trans. That's the problem. Persona 4 is a deeply culturally conservative game, it believes that these are fundamentally bad things to be. Questioning your gender or sexuality are treated by the game as "character flaws" meant to be overcome, just like the sentiments expressed by the other Shadows. The biggest core theme of persona 4 is that you should be whatever society expects of you. Chie decides to conform to the female gender role, Yukiko decides to inherit the inn, Rise decides to remain an idol, Kanji and Naoto decide that they weren't queer after all. Adachi's villainy is because he doesn't accept his lot in life. Not doing what you're told to do is a flaw. Being queer is a flaw.
If they wanted to write stories about people who are misunderstood, about self-discovery and acceptance, why did they only write characters who ended up being cisgender and heterosexual? Why did they write the Shadows to only LOOK like they're queer, and then back out at the last minute? Nobody forced the writers to make these choices, and what they decided says things about the way they view queer people.
Also, there's a scene where the boys are coerced into dressing in drag and the entire joke is that men dressing like women is disgusting. Except for Teddie, who passes and is immediately fetishized. I hope you can see why I, a trans woman, wasn't a big fan.
the shadow self is a concept from Jungian psychology and so facing that shadow means facing parts you dislike about youself or parts you repress due to social barriers that includes being trans or being gay, this game does have a scrapped gay route with yosuke because the game was created in 2009 i dont doubt that if a game like persona 4 which follows the shadow self as a form of the characters getting personas i dont doubt they would have a gay or trans character accept that about themselves to get their persona, i relate heavily to repressing my "true self" and before i came out i had to face what felt like my own shadow to accept myself for who i am
the game is a period piece its 16 years old now so some of its jokes about fat people or how drag is funny is representative of the times
also conservative japanese governments have no issues with transgender people as they are allowed into womens only spaces, are treated as women by society and japan has some of the best trans healthcare in the world, japan has had trans and gender non conforming culture in media since the edo period due to art and poetry