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How to Determine Your Deck’s Power Level I The Command Zone 295 I Magic: the Gathering EDH
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- Опубликовано: 18 авг 2024
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Show Notes:
Commander games are much more fun when all of the decks in a pod are at a similar power level. But how do you determine, before the game, if your deck is on par with the others? How do you rank it on our 1-10 scale? Those are the questions we’re tackling on this episode.
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Here's an idea: Before the Game Knights episodes, have everyone playing the game rate the power level of their decks.
SmugLookingBarrel they used to talk about the opposing decks they face in the episode in the beginning videos of game knights.
I do like that idea, as it could help to show you closer to where your decks could fall into on the scale.
game knights is rigged. they want certain people to wins
@@turtleturtle1500 That seems very unlikely. How do you figure?
@@ryanlott1108
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I
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My player skill brings 10/10 decks down to a 1/10.
@Tiago de Matos discards Gravetroll.... yep 1/10 😈
Tiago de Matos also turn one, plays seven zero cost artifacts.
Tiago de Matos because I was the masked player at the other side of the table playing an all basic lands deck.
same bro
Would have liked but message count was at 69
Idk if josh will read this comment, but I met him at command fest and he gave me a signed playmat and signed my god-pharaoh, so I just wanted to tell him how appreciative I am of what he does.
if i ever go to an event i'm taking some of my favorite cards to get signed
@@stayathomedad4830 why? How so?
@@stayathomedad4830 it takes time, that doesn't make them scum. Chill some
I agree
@@stayathomedad4830 you shouldn't be throwing around insults like that. Especially if that's the only reason. You look stupid.
Speaking as someone who plays ABUR duals in a lot of very casual decks with very casual strategies, I hammered the thumbs up on this video at 43:17.
54:17 in general I would say there are a lot of politics that happen in games with 9s and 10s, but they look way different. At that level people are trying to get others to misplay by selectively highlighting free information to throw off threat assessment. You also see people leverage their position in priority order to force other players to burn countermagic and removal or lose the game.
In terms of playing against blind metas, I usually shoot really low and adjust upwards for subsequent games. I pull out my Boros attack deck and come to terms with the fact that I will probably lose, because I don't want to be the guy walking around doling out negative experiences on behalf of the cEDH community.
Love the cedh insight, the politics and style of play is very different from powerlevel to powerlevel.
Very underrated comment, thinking of that, I realize that I play politics most often the way you describe as higher competitive level.
However, there is almost always a person on the table that is either clueless(close to zero threat assesment) or ignorant to the board state until everybody loses.
These moments are one of the strongest "feelsbads" of the multiplayer experience.
Also In my experience people will try and convince others that there opponent is more threatening then theme.
@@hive_mind5869 that's just part of politicking, using "threat assessment " to deflect the eyes from you to someone else.
I bring this politics strategy to our 5-8 games, and so does everyone else.
That Lord of the Rings joke aged beautifully. 😂
I came to the comment section only to write the same thing
I was gonna say my Nazgûl and Sauron decks are so oppressive
So did the Optimus prime one 😂
I've been working on a "jank" deck that has a d&d/wow theme, where it's designed to put the other players on quests so they can get rewards to help them in the game
Could be cool for an archenemy deck, so they're a party trying to defeat your "dungeon"
I need this deck list
Nice! I'm working on a jank deck for kenrith where everything is themed around kings and royalty
Yes decklist please
I have a deck like this, it's a Zedruu themed like a equipment/artifact shop, so i'm like a NPC on the table, guiving quests for equipments and etc. Pretty cool to play
play 3 games with friends
if by the third game they are all targetting you, you did good.
I guess that's true for most people
Or you're playing zo-zu.
@@linusschanreitner5825 then prepare to misery
No matter what, I always get targeted. No matter what I do, I even have been losing games on purpose in the past 5 weeks because I just could care less about winning anymore. I just hate to have my stuff being destroyed even when its not a threat. Last Friday someone used that new green force to destroy my gilded lotus and starcompass. Then 2 turns down the road someone plays a artifact that makes all creatures colorless, then plays the rat commander to give all rats fear, essentially making them unblockable. Then I was stuck at 4 mana for 5 turns in a row and couldnt cast anything. Im just sick of being a target when I am not even a threat.
Depends. I like to bring decks with similar power level than my friend's so that they also have a good time and don't need to specifically target me to get a chance at winning.
"Melissa DeTora could spank me!"
10:28
-- Jimmy Wong, 2019
Thank you mam may I have another?
@@TheCulturedMan34 And, please, just crush me!
Support Bottom Boys :D
Lugh Ildanach yep
Yeah, was thinking that was jimmy just secretly throwing that out there. haha
I really love that Jimmy said "Animar plus 2 other commanders" when Riku was the headliner.
So, I have a jank deck. It's all wurm themed and the best card in there ( by far) is sandwurm convergence. You guys used craw wurm as an example, and you know what? I don't have that one so I'm adding it to my next tcg order. Thanks guys
There's a mono green legendary that creates wurm tokens now, and gives +2/+2 and trample to them. If you haven't heard of it....
Show starts at 4:47
+
You're doing the Lord's work
Its incredible how long they take to start the show
I scroll the comments on all of their videos just to find this. Thank you 🙏
@@caiolucas55 most podcasts spend anywhere from 2-5 minutes at the start of their videos plugging sponsors, their Patreons, etc. They're not putting out all of this content on their free time, they need to make money. People need to stop complaining. Just skip if you don't care, but don't whine about it when there's a purpose.
This is making me want to build goat tribal.
Bernhard Wang if you do that, hit me up with the deck list. That might even be better than my croc tribal, or the snail tribal.
Standard is getting a little lame, my most prominent deck is elk tribal
We need moar goats. Whilst considering goat tribal myself I ran into an issue. No goat themed ramp.
DJPIPER28 you can always just use artifact rampers. They are more expensive, but they’re good.
Just wait until people start siding in Goatnapper
Anyone else notice the look in Jimmy's eyes when he said "Melissa DeTora could crush me"?
when
@@lot2973 10:32
MelissaDeToro can spank me with a 3-4 casual deck
Game Knights Idea:
An episode where everyone has to bring a Power Level 1!
3 mana 2/2 tribal?
That's only possible if they decided to play commander, AND bring their own decks. Which is not very likely to happen.
Perhaps send it to LRR for Friday Night Paper Fight
Hat tribal vs Chair tribal vs Dab tribal vs T-Pose tribal
Queue a four hour video
I thiiiink Josh was going for the "EVERY BODY DANCE NOW!" with the wamp wamps, at the beginning
Yeah its not the tune of I've got the Power, I know that for sure
I also think this. lol.
Yes! I was very sad... I really wanted to hear that
Would of been funny if he went
swamp, swamp swamp
Flower Power your a genius lol , I cant stop doing it myself nowTHANKS
"If you play black and doesn't have a demonic tutor [..] Id be interested to see why you think that's 7 or 8"
"Well, Jimmy. You see... the Deck IS strong. However, I'm poor"
Can get a revised demonic for like 30$..
Well if your a budget player that $30 could very well be a new deck, personally i would rather build more decks, then to make one really powerful deck that would get really boring, really fast. I have plenty of power 6-7 decks that cost under $50 total. It's about finding creative synergies and making the decks as efficient as possible on that budget. One of my most powerful decks has only cost about $35 and it easily keeps up with 8-10 level decks, given it is zada hedron grinder, but still super cheap deck that easily keeps up in cedh that have $300+ decks. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean better, it comes down more to player skill and build quality.
@@devynmounteer6696 very true. I've just started using proxies aswell for expensive cards. China does a good job at making high quality proxies for 2-3$ a piece. And commander, being quite the casual format, people either dont care, or have no clue because 80% of them are indistinguishable
@@devynmounteer6696 tutoring cards don't make the deck boring. They're useful for grabbing a specific card given the state of the game. I've grabbed heroic intervention as well as Imps Mischief and Torment of Hailfire in my games and each card has made all the difference
@@hybridyd1305 I never said tutors were boring. I was saying only having one really expensive deck gets really boring for me personally as I like having different styles of decks to switch it up and overall have more fun.
When you find out your 8 is a 2
That's my noob arse on Commander Wednesdays...
Legacy XV literally me right now 😂😂
me when i take my "6 turn" deck out into the real world lol
When you find out your 2 is an 8
Ngl my deck is a 7 that would jump to a 9 with 2 cards and maaaaaybe swapping my budget tutors for more expensive ones
One of my favourite ways to describe jank decks is that they have a goal other than winning. You guys did illustrate the point but I think it's worth highlighting on its own too 😊
I came into this thinking I played 6 or 7, but now I see myself in the 4-5 realm. Big eye opener!
Same! Revisited this video because of some experiences I've had discussing power levels, where people would just completely stump me when I said "around 7". Turns out my Vial/ Krark deck is mostly a 5.
I'm glad you guys bring up the situation where players are judged just because they run expensive/powerful cards. Sometimes these players didn't buy them in today's prices. They might've traded for them or had them for a long time - from a time when they were waaaaaaay cheaper. So it's great to clarify. I'm someone that clarifies this by following the social contract. I believe in asking at what power people are going to play the match before starting it. If the pod is going to be between 6-8 then I choose my deck accordingly. I think that's the best course of action. Same for cEDH. Those players literally say: "Is this going to be cEDH?" and then choose a deck accordingly. I ask if it's casual or semi-competitive since those are the major pods I come across. So I sort of classify them as jank, casual, semi-comptitive, and cEDH.
Almost all of my decks are between 6-7 with maybe one 4 and one 8. I purposely exclude *most* tutors from my decks for the sake of variety and fun. I'm aware that's not for everyone, but it works out well for my playgroup! Great episode!
"A Goat deck is a casual deck" I've played against a guy who had an Oxen deck, that was basically every shapeshifter ever with some wacky combo and a lonely Ox in the mix. It was pretty competitive.
38:43 "There is no mill decks up there" Oh you sweet summer child. You just wait, winter is coming
Definitely needed this video especially since i just got back into magic a few months ago. All the new cards and just alot of good decks to build and try out. Thanks guys!
from experience: it is always a "7/10"
but... thats really where my muldrotha deck is at...
(and literally no other deck ive ever built online or in paper)
From what I've learned that's generally the most fun power
@@williamcarswell3012 eh, it seems very unbalanced to me, as many people don't see their decks as below that or sitting down with a significantly stronger deck, as it was just the way they played...
it feels like you could take the normal "7/10" and seperate it into three levels.
If i don't know the playgroup i go for a 6/10. Because it's better to understimate than overstimate your deck with strangers.
@@Narabedla4 that's fair but if you do get blown out by a 10/10 let them know after the game that it's way better than he thought
Man that's crazy watching this now and Josh says that. Lotr cards just came out. 😅 11:44
Right!
This was a great episode. Highly enjoyable. I wonder to aid people’s reference if this could be added to the opening intro of Game Knights? So when you introduce your commander and key cards and strats state power level as well?
7:53 “there’s no way to put your deck on, you know- feed it into a computer and it spits out ‘your deck is a 7.2/10’.”
Paul: CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!!!
Nice reference
Should be:
1: Strength
2: Speed
3: Reliability
4: Interaction
*Edited for the sake of good points in comments*
Win con mono blue always 10/10
I dont think speed to reach the wincon should be a metric as it excludes stax decks. Teferi, Urza, and Yisan dont reach their win con particularly fast, but they lock you out of the game until they get there.
Or there might be an additional category: Interaction
4: Resistence to disruption
@@andrewsigrist9981 stax or control or pillowfort ... yeah speed to reach wincon definitely isnt a great way to measure it
@@andrewsigrist9981 To be honest, locking people out of the game is pretty much the deck's primary wincon. People not conceding after, say, creature Teferi + Knowledge Pool (I'm going with a popular yet more cute than effective combo) is the actual bad experience, not the time it takes for the hard-lock player to take out everyone.
@42:59
"Just because somebody plays a Mana Crypt in their deck doesn't automatically bump their deck to an 8 on the power scale."
Preach!
The Command Zone should have an episode dedicated to cEDH with a guest host. Talk about the differences and myths that separate casual and hyper competitive. Importance of turn order and priority, prioritizing interaction in deckbuilding...
Actually laboratory Maniacs we're testing out a competitive level Bruna deck for the Voltron strategy, they got it up to like at 9 on the power level
The Azorius one I assume? I think Josh undervalues voltron strats a bit in general, they can be pretty nasty sometimes.
It kills all 3 other players on turn 6? lol doubt it.
I would never play CEDH, however I can't not watch Playing With Power MTG here on youtube
The games are so quick I can’t disagree. Must watch for me too
same
#ad
How to Boros and Voltron at the higher tables: Feast and Famine and winter orb. Works like charm :)
I thought of you as soon as they said it could only be so good. Maybe they didn't see Aurelia murder 3 opponents after 2 consecutive board wipes.
So, after getting into cEDH, I feel like the best way to explain 9 vs 10 is:
9- You are trying to interact with your opponents as efficiently as possible.
10- You are trying to NOT interact with your opponents as efficiently as possible.
At least this is the mind set I have when I'm building a commander for a 9 vs a 10, and not all commanders are able to pull this off.
My feeling on power level of a deck from my experience so far (others may disagree):
A well tuned/optimized deck usually gets to an 8, and with more effort (sometimes money) can get to a 9, but not always a 10. When I've played cEDH games at 10, it's usually trying to get to your win con by turn 3 or 4 with interaction pieces to defend your win con, and in a bubble can win turn 1-3. 9 tends to feel like you can get to your win con by turn 3 consistently, you are able to prevent your opponents from winning until turn 6, and on turn 6 you can win while defending your win con. So, I agree with the turns specified to win, but at 9 and 10 you are trying to win by these turns "not in a bubble".
I like to think of 9 decks as the casually competitive decks that are fun to play with, but may not be ready to go in and attempt to win a tournament. When it comes to 9 and 10, I feel like that isn't enough information to describe the power level. Which is where the tier list comes in.
Politics happens a lot in 9 and 10 games, but it's less about having a truce, and more about using priority to bluff into someone making a misplay. Like you could counter/destroy something, but there are two others that could counter it for you.
Overall, I think this has been the best video I've seen to introduce my play group to power levels and have a good discussion about it. It's really helped me identify the qualities of each power level such that I now have decks across the range, and my games have become much more fun because of it. Generally I find it best to start with my 5-6 level deck, because my group tends to over/under rate the power of their decks by +/-1, and then work my way up in power level until we start having fun games.
Josh you nailed it at 1:07:28. You have to draw it! If you have a punch of great mana rocks but they're all on or near the bottom of your deck ; it may not matter too much what power your deck is unless your playing against totally inferior deck.
taking out my super jank sliver deck
my
opponent: LOOK a super competitive 10/10 deck lets all focus him down
Slivers aren't even that powerful anymore. I wish the whole you play slivers, you must die thing would go away. Yea they are strong, but commander decks in general have gotten stronger and I think they sit comfy at where they are now. My sea kraken tribal deck can be more scary than my sliver overlord combo but the reactions each one get is vastly diffrent.
I sadly completely agree
Its one of the most powerful tribes, you have to say its a jank deck and maybe show it to the table to convince them. Same if you play sth like Breya (I had a bad breya deck, I know what Im talking about)
I can appreciate this scale, I've traditionally found that my rating scale might be more spiky than most other players just because of what I'm used to in my playgroup but I really do think that my scale generally fits this layout you guys put together. One thing that I think could've been touched on (although you may not have wanted to which is understandable) is that I believe decks within the 9-10 range really just have a scale of their own.
After playing some CEDH it's very noticeable that there may be a 9 power level that is nowhere near the strength of another 9. Once you get into this 9-10 range, the cedh power levels could easily break down to 9.2's and 9.6's. An example could be my Godo Helm combo deck; it's probably a 9 where as Kess Doomsday most likely sits at a 9.9 or 10.
I was trying to rank my decks for a long time. I finally came to the point of keeping it simple. 1) If a deck does something like drop eldrazi or Iona on turn 1. This deck clearly deserves consideration if my opponent a casual or moderate player. What did they bring that night? So I just put a little notation on the box to remember that. Does the deck have a ability it can get off in the first couple of turn that could make someone feel like they are shuffling and dying? 2) I just keep a text file on my computer. A quick list of my decks. In consideration to casual players. They can simply tell me a deck is banned from play when they are at the table. I consider my self a moderate player. I can offer the experience and jerk level of a tournament experience to casual and moderate players. Depending on the format a tournament players deck is. I can win or at least put up a fight. I would say I'm a moderate player. Everything I have is vintage legal. Outside of the tournament scene there is no meta game or standard for anything. This seems to work for me.
8:10 you can do everything right and then the outcome of a single game comes down to one person got amazing card draw, one got decent, and 2 got mostly hosed. commander is chaotic; it's why we love it.
It's fun coming back to this video and hear that "my deck is a LOTR deck" gets into the Junk decks
Great topic, perfect timing! Was thinking about it last week but did not find answers on the internet
My favorite deck is The Ur-Dragon. It's pretty consistent at getting wins around turn 10, which puts it at about 7 on the power scale. I think it's fairly resilient, and it has a few answers.
By the metric of optimization, though, I wouldn't rate it that high. It's far from being optimized and needs several changes to truly push its power. At this point I would say its a 6 at best.
Hey Josh & Jimmy! First off, I am super happy for the amount of effort you put in to each topic and each episode. Whether it is Command Zone, Game Knights, Extra Turns, etc... You go for gold each and every time. I am super happy of your successful Kickstarter drive and the successful year you all have had. This is a win for everyone. I want to say that because of the two of you, I am able to continue to enjoy magic during this time in my life (I have been struggling mentally this year) and your content is the reason I have been able to keep going. Thank you gents. You both (and so does your staff) rock!
I feel another aspect you need to add to this is the deck's Achilles heel. All decks have a weakness but you need to determine just how hard it is for your deck to handle it's own weaknesses. Consider reanimator decks which have a very dramatic weakness in graveyard hate. This weakness is so relevant that a deck that might otherwise be a power 10 deck can drop to a 8 depending on the meta. Artifact decks also have a strong Achilles heel as well.
In my meta, forced sacrifice to gravepact effects is top tier moving my usual creature strategies from a 7-8 down to a 5-6. It's time to start packing more enchantment, artifact, and graveyard hate.
Milo HoBo there are a few cards that prevent foes from forcing you to sacrifice. You could find room for those in your deck.
I've been killed with springjack pasture and craterhoof....the pasture makes goats...yeah i died to goats.
nah I'll just bring my scouter
Yes! Lol
It's over 9000!
Aggressive inline better than scooter. Disney movie BRINK
Aggressive inline better than scooter. Disney movie BRINK
I would say
1. Theme deck: entertainment is the only consideration
2-3 Jank
4-5 Casual
6-7 Focused
8-9 Competitive
10 Net Deck with crazy high win and possibly severe prison and/or control: Not possible to accidentally have fun while piloting or facing this deck.
My playgroup uses a slightly modified version of your 1-10 scale. Ours goes like:
1-2 - Chair Tribal - You don't have a strategy, and the goal of the deck isn't to win, but some other creative endeavor.
3-5 - The precon equivalent - A somewhat consistent strategy, and some good cards, to a degree you'd expect in a precon, pretty much.
6-7 - Focused - More cards in your deck are included to push your main strategy: Either by executing your own strategy, or by interrupting your opponents' strategies.
8-9 - Optimized - You see barely any tap lands, the land counters are lower over all, ramp count and efficiency is higher, more infinite combos, more no-holds-barred types of gameplay and strategies, and more "shenanigans", i.e. things that break the normal flow of the game, i.e. entombing a big monster on turn one and reanimating it on turn 2.
10 - Competitive - The bleeding edge decks, where budget is no object. Cards are picked based on their utility and efficiency alone, no matter if they cost 2 cent or 2000 dollars. The goal is to win as soon as possible.
We barely see any cEDH decks in our group, so we thought it would make sense to fold them into the same one-degree-entry, while giving precons more space, to represent the significant gamut of power levels you see between, say, a 2014 precon and a 2019 precon.
It's working rather well for us :)
I once played 99 cards for a month as my sister accidentally took my mountain and went back to uni with it.
Thanks for the topic! I’ve been worrying about how to determine my decks’ power level for a while, so this helps
This honestly helps me feel more confident in identifying where my decks are at on the scale, as opposed to the websites and forum posts that give confusing algebraic instructions on calculating power level. Not having a playgroup or even an LGS I can find time to visit leaves me in a place where I have all these decks and no way to test them against other people.
Another way to power down in terms of the scale is to scale down the main game plan. Multiple ways to effectively kill everyone at the same time is something an 8-10 would look for. Win in 2 turns if the on-board plan is unimpeded is 6-8. 6- needs it to survive 3 turns
I sincerely thought that you guys were going to do the "everybody dance now"
"There is no mill on 9-10..." - Oona Queen of the fae, :(
Oona can be competitive. ruclips.net/video/I-dpXzsa9lY/видео.html
@@obed6901 I know thats why I said that with the ":(" sad face" "
I say an easy way to distinguish decks is how often it will combo off in a turn, and how long that combo will be.
1-2: no combos
3-4: maybe a combo once in a while, or a powerful effect that happened due to luck. Unintentional combo
5-6: intentional interacts, happens alot more, turns take a bit longer than normal.
7-8: comboing off every turn, multiple powerful combos
9-10: you combos cause other combos, answer for a shut down of a combo.
I played a jank deck last Christmas and it was the most fun the people at my LGS ever had. I held a Christmas give away contingent upon guessing the theme of my deck: Lewis Carroll's Adventures of Alice in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking Glass. Jank doesn't HAVE to be good; most of the time they have a purpose and that's about it.
I was ready to rank my Animar "Oops, All Creatures!" at a 7 until you gave those metrics. Maybe I shouldn't be using my other decks to measure it.
Do you know if he was saying animar is not very competitive?
I found that a better question is "how fast does your deck win?" This is usually much more meaningful.
Why? Fast combo and staxes are polar opposites in terms of speed, but both are cedh decks.
@@Gab8riel Stax wins long before it wins, and you can simply describe that first
I do the same thing and have had good results with it. Some people may share HOW their decks win which gives you an idea which deck to grab also.
@@CommanderReplay Thats where i got the idea, had a lot more success with it
I just have to say that keeping a copy of The Art of War behind Sriracha and salt is a perfect metaphor for MTG.
10/10 background material.
I really like that Game Knights thinks of deck power in terms of about the consistency. The "game winning turn" scale is how I ask people to describe their power level to me almost everytime I sit down in a pod a new people. It's cool to see you guys have a parallel thought process to mine because I haven't seen anyone else doing it that way. Gavin Duggan of the RC and I had a discussion about assessing power levels while playing at commandfest Seattle and I brought this strategy up to him when he asked us how we assess power levels. Hopefully this scale will start to spread and become a reference for players!
So you need a casual deck if someone like Kyle Hill stops by. Huh huh just kidding. Kyle is awesome. Tapping his lands at a 45° gees.
Jimmy's take on samurai swords was oddly authentic.
So based on what you're saying about Casual (3-4) decks, Graham's Bear Force One deck that won a Game Knight session is one of them. Bear tribal FTW!
I have a 6-7 bear tribal, it has other things than bears
my friends tried to concede when i played stasis. i said "let it go around the table a turn before you quit." they agreed, and less than 10 seconds later it was removed... if you don't have an answer, your friend should
Finally! This is gonna be one of the best episodes ever! ♥️
It was fun starting to play commander with people who own semi competitive commander decks from the 5-10+ years of experience collecting, and I was starting off with my Edgar Markov precon. By fun I mean infuriating to realize how under powered I was and so investing hundreds of $$ into building something that could barely keep up.
This is a really helpful topic to cover. At Command Fest Chicago, there was a lot of discussion on what the power level of everyone's deck was. Some people didn't know, so we assumed a bit lower. Someone said he had an infinite combo in it, so we assumed a bit higher. It worked out pretty well.
nostalgia, yeah, that's me, trying to put Kruphix, God of Horizons (my first commander) in any deck with UG I build, like, "I never have more than 7 cards in hand, and I always use all my mana each turn, certainly Kruphix could work in this deck" a hint, it's always a dead card... (and I still love it!)
I really like the idea of "Art over Science".
Also, "How strong is your deck?"
"It's over 9000!!!!"
*sits quietly in corner with Griffin Tribal*
Dont give up! I play gorgon tribal. Rarely wins but I enjoy myself
@@danielbretado7660 me too :) its more like *sits quietly in corner, plotting pod, and then world domination with Griffin Tribal. Even tho the deck's a 3. I can dream.*
So based on this ranking system, my four decks are *basically* like this;
Mirri G/W Enchantress would be 6-7
Rhys the Redeemed would probably be a 7.
And my Chulane and Kykar, with the way they're built with food chain (with lab maniac and jace) and storm respectively, I'd say would be 9s.
I'd say it's good that I have two 5-6s and two more powerful decks because having a variety is always good when it comes to playgroups, so I think I'm good here and am now much more informed about how to rank my decks as well as future ones. Thanks again.
One tool for players that might not know about it that I find a life saver for deck building is tappedout. When you build the deck on that website you get a pie chart that compares the number of colored symbols on your cards to the number of ways to generate that mana. It has helped me a ton with deck building to have a better idea of where my mana base is sitting in comparison to the demands of the deck. It even splits the chart to show a comparison of lands that come into play tapped and untapped.
33:21 "Group Hug are harder to pull off at high power level"
*Laughs in Nekusar group hug*
*Laughs in Zedruu donate hug*
i don't see why people don't like a new hand every few seconds lol
This comment format is SICK. It is HILARIOUS! Srsly definitely not insufferable!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@firstandlast.1254 I feel like if there is any comment format that is insufferable then it is the fucking "nobody: " format since that does not add anything to any comment, and way too many people spam it everywhere.
@@Skylos oof, you are one hundred percent correct about that
“I’m making a lord of the ring deck…”… 3 years later… 😂
That definition about the turn you're able to win seems perfect to me to determine a EDH deck power level.
This video rocks! I recently went to GP Reno and I know for a fact that my Jhoira 'Droid' deck is a solid 8 and someone from my LGS was there and was saying it was 'competitive' which proved interesting. Pitting a table at me was always interesting, best move I did during one of the rounds is he tapped out with TONS of board presence I popped out a Stasis. 2 people actually thanked me as he had cradle and tabernacle out with tons of stax creatures out.
I love how hard they try not to offend people
What would you say the power level of Melissa’s Karametra deck was?
7/8 maybe. This deck can be very strong but is completely destroyed by a single cyclonic rift.
@@DarthJarJar501 has crazy rebuild potential though, however I dont think it's a Cedh deck like the flash hulk decks are...
Interesting to hear your guys' opinions about Commander deck strength! From your scale most of my decks fall right in the range you suggested most decks are at (6-8), and that both makes me happy and inspires me to continue my 18-year journey of improving at Magic! Thanks guys.
Also, something that is REALLY fun is to play more non-standard Commander games, like 5-8 player games (or more), star-pattern, two-headed giant star (each person playing both decks of a team), etc. My good friends and I have even made a number of super fun and casual formats, and it completely changes the power levels of decks due to the non-standard interactions and deck count.
take a shot every time Josh says sorry for no reason.
Too much passiveness around here...lets offend someone for god sake
Josh’s LOTR comment has aged poorly 😂
Josh's optimus prime is channeling Sean Connery
I appreciate the discussion about individual cards. It's tough for me as somebody that has some dual lands because I want to play with then but I don't want people at the table to judge me for using them, so I'm tempted to just not put them in.
I play a wolf/werewolf tribal edh deck in my casual pod and everyone tends to be afraid of it because everything feeds into everything. Either wolves get buffed, I get more wolves, or it helps me get more wolves
my other mono green commander is kind of voltron with yorvo and i have a lot of ramp comparatively but didn't have anything to put it to until i added in some beefy wurms and elementals but before that my biggest hitters were yorvo, avenger of zendikar, and oran rief hydra
For some reason I really want to build the most powerful goat tribal deck now...
shoes I’m trying shark tribal, boar tribal, goat tribal, and bear force one
@@diegomeringer3953 Dude, after seeing that GK episode, I totally want Bear Force One.
@@johnbuscher yeah and in kaldheim, I bet there will be at least one good bear
Something I ran into at commander fest. Is this politics or just being a cheater? Relates to this topic. It was a casual pod and everyone wanted to go around power 6-8
Guy sits down, running a strange mono blue commander. Talked about how last round he took himself out and his deck is really goofy. That it tries to achieve weird combos and most take himself out of the game.
He proceeds to pull off Sceptor Reversal with capsize and Aetherflux. He did it in a strange way, and it was around turn 7, but I still felt this was a bit deceitful. My friend said this is politics. Playing yourself off as a non-threat even though you are.
Any other opinions.
I mean, would you really ever trust someone running a mono blue deck?
@@ROMANTIKILLER2 Agreed, would you ever trust mono-blue? I’d just kill them ASAP if they’re intentionally making themselves seem harmless in a stranger setting. If it’s not a stranger, then I’d potentially reassess, but otherwise just remove suspects.
@@ROMANTIKILLER2 good point
I've often heard people refer to decks as what percent focused it is with 75% being the ideal for strangers. So a deck with essentially the edhrec recommendations for oloro but with 20 cards that they are playing sub optimally just because they like them is a 80%. Of course a theoretical deck like that rarely actually exists, some commanders can raise it just from being good and synergy between janky cards might raise the score even if none of them are good on their own.
In the end it ends up very similar to what they say in the video but the extra finesse of saying "it's kind of a 60%" and the goal of making "a 75" really helps give a goal for playing with strangers.
The EDH format is a casual format, even though you can play it competitively. Because of that, I think Commander games involve a social contract - you don't have to tell someone all the ways your deck wins, but you should be willing to talk a little about the power level of your deck. The social contract is about having fun and playing good clean magic, at least, for me and my play group. So share, be yourself, have fun.
Also, we shoot for Optimized decks in our group. If there's a particular card (or even a combo) that feels bad, we talk about it and have generated our own 'ban list.'
YES, IVE BEEN NEEDING THIS EPISODE!!
"Voltron decks can't really be even considered to be an 8/10" -
Narset, Enlightened Master? Uril, the Miststalker? What do you meen boi?!?!
I was struggling how to determine it and now finnaly I realized ❤ my favorite channel on RUclips command zone❤❤❤❤❤❤
I actually use a hardware toolcase. It can hold alot of dice and 13 commander decks with extra space for a stack of cards that you constantly switch in and out. Super legit. Love your content guys!
There need to be more precision between 4 and 8. All my decks have a curve, ramp, draw, a game plan and a finisher, but never cedh. They are nowhere near the same power levels.
YK L like they said it’s an art vs science thing where some commanders by themselves are going to perform better or more consistently than others, while all the decks you have made might be built as focused decks or even optimised the commanders may pull them forward or backwards. Also I’m pretty sure if you and I used the same commander and built them with an optimised frame of mind to get them to 7-8 our individual choices will probably be different and will effect its overall power level and also remember the consistency factor.
I think Commander’s Quarters puts the metric between 4-8 into perspective best. A 5 or 6 is focused on a game plan but they aren’t playing the very best cards for their deck for some reason, usually budget. A 7 or 8 is willing to spend the money on those expensive cards (or has been playing for so long they just have them) to fully optimize the strategy, but it’s still not CEDH levels where you’re comboing off and winning turn 3
Never thought I'd hear Josh say the nut draw on camera. lol 😂
He mentioned goat tribal again.
I don't listen to the podcast often but I din't believe he's done that yet aside from after that game knights episode with morophon.
Yes!!
I was thinking of my Anja deck when you were explaining power levels by turns to win. Definitely an 8 by that level, BUT was also thinking there isn't much I can do to protect my strategy, bringing down to a lower level (probably 7). This video really helped me visualize this stuff better, especially considering the power level by turns to win!
I started powering down all my decks a while ago. The consistency, and same combo wins within a few turns got honestly so fn boring! It got to a point where, in a few turns I almost always had the ability to tutor my combo to go off and win in that same turn, but I would tutor for something fun or interesting instead. Just anything to keep my love for the game alive.
My Oloro deck (my favourite deck I've ever made) was maybe an 8.5 or 9, and I've made it a 7-ish by just straight up removing my combo pieces. I needed to re-learn my love for commander.
In my dabbling in powerful decks there's one thing I learned, CEDH sounds like a perpetual groundhog day nightmare.
I like izzet
Oh man, very true about hard to spot the liars until they start playing.
First LGS FNM I've ever been to was pretty recent. Went with a friend so it would be less intimidating. He tried to screen some of our fellow players to ensure that my mostly budget / altered precon deck wouldn't get stomped. First commander game was with one person who was genuinely friendly and helpful, the magic friend I came with, and the "casual friendly" player in his own words.
Before the game started, the friend asked each player if they were ready to play a little more casually as I was playing a slightly altered precon and was new to FNM. The genuinely friendly player picked a deck that had an interesting 'group hug' mechanic that could swing from helpful to deadly at a moments notice, my friend had a deck that was primarily luck based (lots of coin flipping), and "Casual Friendly" had an Eldrazi deck with morphs.
The game started pretty even but as the game evolved it became more and more apparent that he was not playing a casual deck. He had answers to everything, insane ramping, expensive cards, and multiple versions of the same Eldrazi to skirt the 'One of every type' rule. I hung on for as long as possible but as expected, the three of us could not shake his deck. Even though I lost, I still enjoyed the interactions and was willing to try another game since I was getting more comfortable. Trying to be as polite as possible, we asked him if he had a slightly more casual deck since the previous one seemed very strong. He said he had one that was much less powerful. The friend I came with has been playing the game for 20 something years and brought out a much stronger deck to see if he could match our buddies "weaker" deck. Long story short, the game played out almost the same as the first except he ensured that I was the last one standing. Once the board was entirely stacked in his favor, he ensured to Mindslaver me to dispose of any and all answers. I scooped and he left saying he had a lot of fun. The other opponent was a good sport but said that he looked forward to seeing the 'two' of us again in the future. We wished him well and the other opponent left the table.
That would have been a reason to end the night and leave the store but sure enough, two new opponents who weren't dishonest about their decks decided to play a couple of games with us. They were definitely between 3-5 (based on the video's system) and the game played out similar to an episode of Game Knights with lots of dramatic changes in the balance of power. We each had a blast and the second game with the guys played out ended up in a head to head with my friend. Those last two games made up for any of the frustrations felt in the first game and I look forward to the next one.
Watching these videos on power levels and how they can vary and change is really fun and interesting when you kind of self-reflect on your own style of deck building and how it's changed. My first deck was Grixis Nicol Bolas but with a lot of M13's exalted cards and things like Insurrection and just whatever fit the colour scheme. I bought the Commander 2013 precon with Jeleva, Thraximundar and Nekusar and just kind of slapped it together, later on realizing that I loved Nekusar's ability and wanted to build around that instead. Now, even though it sits around a 6 or 7 power scale, it's one of my favourite and most fun decks to play because of the political game in multiplayer and the fact that it budded from a 3-4 power starter Nicol Bolas deck