same dude. Found 9 of em in my shoeboxes full of old commens. Always nice to find cards like Priest of Titania, Rhystic Study, Utopia Sprawl, ... in them boxes ;)
My friend's first intro to magic was with our extra commander decks. Watching him make a deck was so fun. He didn't come from standard so him putting his first deck together was so pure and fun. Every card seemed like the best card ever to him. We ended up giving him spare staples and cohesive cards we had but he had so much fun just playing a 1 or 2 it was still great
My introduction to Magic, my friends took me to a shop and helped me buy my first cards. Told me the basics and I put together some jank. They stomped me into the ground without mercy, they put down Eldrazi and optimized beat down or control decks... Eventually, through the crucible of fire, it molded me into an extremely oppressive, but flexible control style in which I was obsessed with having answers and protecting my creatures... fun times.
If there's anything I've learned from deckbuilding, it's this: if you think you built your deck up to a 7, it's probably a 5. If you think you built your deck down to a 7, it's probably a 9.
It depends. In the context of this video, you're probably right. I don't fully agree with how the Nerds evaluate the top end as I feel like they lump too much together, though. Whatever the numbers, though, I think the broader point still applies for the average deckbuilder.
Agree 100% My first two years playing magic I told people my decks are 7's actually they were 5's. Now after playing CEDH I went back and built my casual decks to ACTUAL 7's.
@@liamwelsh4665 then you are playing Slivers and need to revaluate how out of control they can get as to others it is going to feel like a 10 to everyone playing 8's and below yet somehow they lose to 9's and above
My decks are 5 - 6 just interaction, or synergy and my crazy friends they have Cedh decks, very unfair but they say it's normal, but the power level is too high no fun at all.
Similar to my tiers: 1-2: Memes and Jank 3-4: Precons and Casuals 5-6: High Synergy Decks (no infinite combos) 7-8: Optimized and Infinite Combos 9-10: CEDH
For me it’s 1-2 jumble of cards that technically make a legal deck 3-4 jank/meme deck that may not seek to win but do something else 5 is the power level of all the precons that didn’t come out in 2017 6 is like slightly better precon or a budget deck 7 is an average commander deck with synergies and interaction 8 is a very powerful commander deck (can sorta hold its own against cedh decks) 9-10 are cedh decks
What I have noticed is that tutors are really what start to power decks up in the 9-10 range. You could play combos and card draw engines but still be at a 7, but when you throw tutors in the deck it jumps you up quick.
You could also have demonic tutor in your deck but your combos are so janky it’s still considered a 5. This power scale based on “generalized decks” are janky. You can scale cards, but not so easily decks.
Like 90% of it, I still think cEDH needs 2 slots on the numbers (9 and 10) as there are definitely at least 2 tiers of decks in cEDH. Really like your discussion of numbers 1 through 8. I build solidly in the 5-7 range 9 times out of 10, would like to push them into the 6-8 over time.
I think the blurred lines often come from gameplay itself. Sometimes you can have decks with phyrexian arenas and cultivates that fall into 7s due to the deck being incredibly synergistic and fluid. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts
@@NitpickingNerds I don't know, man. Those song lyrics and innuendo walk a wobbling tightrope - precariously fraying at the ends - hundreds of stories above a dark and dreary pit of sexual assault references and allegations. I think Robin Thicke meant well, but the performance with Miley Cyrus at the VMAs... ...murky area. The whole experience seemed a little too on-meta for my playgroup here in Cyrus. Sometimes it feels like we're a jar of spicy mustard being meticulously spatula-ed into a thick creamy layer atop a steaming hot pork sandwich - glistening with shimmering dewdrops of oily lipids under the soft crimson flourescent glow of a strange terrarium's heat lamp. That's life though, man. That's life.
I remember a few years ago when I first got into commander I built a niv-mizzet the firemind I opened from a masters 25 pack and won with the curiosity combo that I had accidentally put in the deck without realizing the combo
It’s nice to have some kind of a description for each deck level since no one seemed to give a decent scale before with each level described and would basically say “if it’s below a 6 then it’s not really commander”
Restricting CDH to only 10's gives so much desperately needed room to the casual decks on the scale and I think the 4 levels (6-9) for casual decks better than precons seems pretty appropriate based on my own decks.
I play my best deck with a group every weekend, and I've won 3 times like outa 50 cause they always play level 9s & 10s however I always show, cause it's so fun
This was helpful. I thought my decks wer around 8 but there closer to 6 and 7. It seems like 8 and higher is basically 60 card decks, no variety same hand every game
@@NitpickingNerds There's a couple games I have seen in cedh where combat damage put in massive amounts of work, specifically with the black/white partner, or to counter black decks. Generally combat *wins*, though, I agree.
Nice job guys. I think this scale has a lot of context for the qualitative aspect of EDH deck building that a quantitative scale can't really grasp. Additionally, the perspective of knowing your deck's power level so that you don't hurt other's M:tG experience rather than focusing on knowing power level so that you can win every game is a really refreshing.
In the spirit of really fun 5-power decks, I made a Moritte of the Frost deck that was just reasonable draw, reasonable card draw, and then basically every clone effect in existence. I run Vesuva and Thespian’s Stage, but nothing exciting to copy. I never have any idea what I’m playing, since it’s entirely just cloning everybody else’s boards.
Only decks I want to make these days include not playing my own deck. 1. Clone effects 2. Red betrayal effects 3. Gonti/Etali type effects 4. Combat tricks, but only used on opponent creatures 5. Goad 6. Copy tribal, but copy only opponent spells
@@hexx_4093 might I recommend Jon Irenicus, Shattered One It involves forcing others to play your deck, and then just giving them the worst or most punishing cards you can Toss in a siphon insight and rogue class so you can steal stuff in the interim Edit: it also falls under your goad category
I liked how you mentioned that super high power level decks can still lose to low power decks cause they are so different. There’s a card I love, Cursed Totem, turns off mana dorks and activated abilities of creatures requiring a cost, it can hose a lot of decks, but may do absolutely nothing against some decks.
It can happen but they also have a worped view of what Cedh is, they play Cedh if your deck is a strong 8 it can hang in Cedh and you won't fine more than 1 or 2 cards in a edh deck that are dead in regular pods. For example I've never seen mental mistep or rest in piece in Cedh you see swan song or mental mistep and I've never seen a Cedh deck card about the graveyard.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 If people wanted to use the grave in cEDH they would use it as makeshift tutors as in virtual card advantage by returning stuff to the hand after putting it there from the deck. But unless you can break something like a Phage the Untouchable there is really no reason to make a cEDH deck based around the grave till they make a 5 color commander that interacts with the graveyard so Graveborn would actually be viable. And Phage is just a hypothesis like i know you can build a deck around that as a 9 but i am not sure you could make it a 10 and no one really wants to build gimmicks unless its Stax for some reason as people sure love their prison decks instead of using Stax like cards to make a 8 or 9 able to keep up with 10's and have a great chance to win with their win con.
I would say mine would fit around the 6-8 levels depending on what's available. I rarely buy new singles unless its for the base of an archetype. Lots of times, I like throwing in some uncommonly used cards and meta-dependent in specific playgroups.
I think you made a great point with the "CEDH format" being misinterpreted in title. I think CEDH meta is a better term, that more fully represents what is actually happening at that level.
Hey, I really appreciate the work you guys put into your videos. The dynamic and fluidness of discussion is very natural and you cover a lot of ground with the seer amount of content you make.. I started magic 3 months ago and I'm already competing with my friends well established decks. Thanks a lot!
@@nordin.munteanu that's kind of the joke they're getting at here. If yes, it more than likely means the group is cEDH because in cedh cards that are far too situational for more casual games can be very useful in games that are usually having a potential win threat come in around turn 3-4.
After playing both for a little bit, one of the biggest differences between Yugioh and Magic (in relation to attitude) is that EVERYONE in Yugioh plays with a CEDH mentality. Winning is first and foremost for 98% of players, then you choose your deck based on what can actually potentially win within your price range. I remembered being kind of baffled by the hate for tutors because they're just so absurdly common in Yugioh. Even with 40 card decks being the norm, pretty much every deck has at least 1 built-in tutor (with 3 being common) as well as 15 cards you have access to 100% of the time. _Many of which being tutors._ You'll absolutely be seeing a lot of the same combos every game, but only in the first couple turns. After which the disruption, board breaking, and grind game makes each game feel different.
Well yeah but yugioh only has the 1v1 format, and it's 💯 percent about winning in 1v1 magic too. But commander is such a unique beast, where it's supposed to be about having fun first and winning second
Not always, My. Friend and I have old school decks (no links no modern acrhtypes etc). Some fun throwback games are possible! Especially in paper, with masterduel you can build optimal meta deck and play on ladders but not enough yuigoh players in my town to justify building perfect decks.
@@NitpickingNerds Imagine my surprise when I looked at what a Palinchron now goes for after tossing that thing around without a sleeve all those years ago. Can I get a time machine to have my teenage self invest big into Urza's block?
Great content and examples, as always, gentlemen. I really enjoyed the descriptions of what makes a "5". Great things to use as examples for newer players. Love it!
Kitchen table commander is the best commander. It's your basic battlecruiser format where everyone is playing their pet cards they like, and nobody has to sit down knowing "okay, Nate over there has 10 win cons that he can rip off with no warning, so we need to suppress him." Yes, I"m an old, boring geezer, but I liked commander before the precons.
We built a power level 1 when I started in 1995. Me and my friend took our 300 cards shuffled them together and we each got half. Sometimes we had no way to play certain spells because one of us would have Deep Spawn but the other had all the islands in their deck. Good times.
A lot of people find that 6's and 7's are the sweet spot for them however people that don't really have much time to spare would play high power EDH up to 9 that way they can at least get in a good amount of games especially if they don't see each other for 3 weeks at a time
when you mentioned the whole "50 rhystic studies from playing in the 80s" thing it reminded me that a friend in my playgroup who has been playing forever used to have like multiple playsets of things like dual lands, force of wills, etc. but they sold them a long time ago. So unfortunate since they wouldve had like tens of thousands of dollars.
One year ago or smthing i buyd an obuun precon and it was so interresting to see it developing from an 4 to maybe an 8 now it is an omnath deck with shock and fetchlands and cards like cyclonic rift
Hope comments stay nice. Very controvercial vid. I as a commander cube player always watching out for more cube vids. Always love watching you. Much love from the netherlands
It's so hard discussing rule 0 with my orvar deck. "Whats your win condition?". "I don't have any dedicated win cons, but everything is a win con in this deck.".
I tend not to worry about the power level of decks. I just enjoy building around a theme usually or an off meta tribal. Example being, I am planning to build warlock tribal once Strixhaven is a bit more obtainable. I want to do a food theme deck with the new chef Commander as well. Should be fun. :)
This is actually a really comprehensive guide! I expected it to be another one of those vague ones that just says like numbers and then a couple descriptors, but this is super simple to use! I think the 2 main decks I have are probably both around 6-7 which is surprising because of how differently they function. One of them is a Mazirek persist combo deck but with 2 tutors and not very many persist cards to get the win, and the other is a najeela warrior tribal deck, which function super different but are both around a similar power which is interesting to me!
I appreciate you guys and the efforts to keep the format healthy. While watching this video, I feel like you built a good case for the vast majority of decks to actually be 7... you said people build up and down to that level 7. It's casual staples but several competitive staples as well. It just felt like you guys confirmed the " I'm a level 7" meme to just be real. Lol
I always love to hear other peoples thoughts on deck power level. Great video Joe & Beezy I would say about most pre cons are around 4-6 depending on the cost of the deck and the commander. Example: Necron Dynasties is fairly optimized for a precon I'd probably put it in the 6 to almost 7 range where as Phantom Premonition is on the much lower end probably lying around a 4 even more closer to a 3(I've played it it's awful). so if you're playing people in this range and you realize you're winning about 50-75% of the time through normal play you're probably more on the 7 to 8 scale, 9-10 should look something along the lines of turn 1 a bunch of 0 drop cost cards into win or win on turn 2 if your opponent has any interactions it's going to be a counter spell or on to the next game. 10 is also where it splits off into commander tiers. Some commanders are just better and no amount of level ten play cards is going to matter.
@@NitpickingNerds honestly ive tried to play a few of these and they caaaaaan win but its more for flavor or fun. I build a 50 dollar beckett brass deck and it just beat the shit out of people and steals all of those juicy permenants
@@NitpickingNerds I’ve been needing help with optimizing my $50 budget deck for Scorpion God. My lgs has a competitive budget commander league, and the meta there is voltron and going wide with creature spam and combat damage. Every time I control the board when things get out of control, and draw cards to keep my engine going, I often end up getting 3 v 1ed and idk what I’m doing wrong
Great Video! Its amazingly well explaining. I showed your video to my table, since they are newer to commander than I and they really got the message from you guys :) My playgroup and I we agreed to certain rules, like certain budget limitations and agreed on a few mechanics we dont want to play (Heavy Stax/MLD) But besides that things are fun. I atm use a Roulette to determine which of my 6 Decks I play And my strongest seems to be my Jhoira-Artifact-Storm Deck which would fall around 8-9 in your Metric with my soon to be improved Jirina Deck at 6 atm.
Don't think you remember me from the Discord before I left, but my flaw, is I want to get cards from as many mechanics from magic's history as I can... so I'm stuck at level 5 for power
Great video. Most of my decks fall in the 6-8 range. I always keep a "break in case of emergency" combo. Sick content. If I had the time I'd get into your Discord.
Really great video!!, Wondering where your powered up precon builds from the years past fall on your scale? I own several perfectly tuned by you guys and love them dearly.
Thanks, probably what I thought based on empirical data.... The thing that nobody talks about with power level is is your commanders plan a relevant win condition. It may just say it's going to do this cool thing once and that is not win the game focused.
Im thinkin mine sit between 6 and 10. I'll optimize a precon, then use whats leftover from it and my trade binder cards to build a second deck with it.
Will never be a 10 or even close to a 9 then. Those are CEDH with highly optimized decks, multiple tutors, the best fast mana and ramp, usually doesnt cost less than 1k
I just started trying to get into commander and learn about the format and I happened to find 17 Studies from Prophecy while sifting through my collection. Cracks me up seeing the price getting so high.
26:00 I actually got to experience that once. Someone brought their cedh deck, and we played a few rounds, of which I only won one of because he scooped after I was able to consistently interact until turn 5. I was playing a Niv-Mizzett, the Firemind deck (built around draw and burn into Isochron scepter and dramatic reversal), which was probably a 6 on this scale. Can't remember their commander, but their main wincon involved going infinite with Kiki-Jiki, had a ton of expensive fast mana, and consistently won by turn 4.
Yeah it depends a lot on which cEDH deck you play against. A ton of them run like 20-30% cards that are dead draws vs. power 5-6 decks. And if their combo is countered, it takes longer to recover. But I also think that some decks like Rog-Silas or Codie are practically impossible for a lower power deck to beat as they consistently win on ~t2. t4 is considered mid-range to slow in the cEDH format.
Just yesterday I was thinking that I wanted to evaluate the power level of my decks, and it would have been so cool if the Nitpicking Nerds did w video on the topic! And I'm not even joking :)
Now I want a mono blue commander with "Flying. islands in your hand have flash. Whenever you play an island you may counter target spell. Whenever an island enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature."
To build on the one of the top comments, once you have reviewed enough decks there starts to be a "baseline" that's established so it can actually be one of things that's daunting and seems impossible at first but once you have a few hundred in the bank and do compilation videos,, it'll be a resource point for every single EDH player and an invaluable amount of content. Just food for though 🥑
I guess my decks are as following. [Assumed Power Level] - Commander (Notable cards) A) [8] - "Anowon the Ruin Thief (Cyclonic Rift, Chrome Mox, Varragoth Bloodsky Sire, Rankle Master of Pranks, Scheming Symmetry, Notorious Thong, Maddening Cacophony, many unblockable Rogues) B) [7.5] - "Wyleth, Soul of Steel" (Sword of Body and Mind, Argentum Armor, Stonehewer Giant, Darksteel Plate, Grafted Exoskeleton, Spectra Ward, Sunforger, many free equip stuff) C) [7] - "Gisela, Blade of Goldnight" [Heartless Hidetsugu, Pyrohemia, Fiery Emancipation, Runed Halo, Chandra Torch of Defiance, many burn and white selective protection) D) [7] "Volrath, the Shapestealer" (Inexorable Tide, Black Sun's Zenith, Necroskitter, many Shapeshifter, Loyal Guardian, Blighted Agent, Myojin of Night's Reach)
All of my decks and some guessed power levels: Averna, the Chaos Bloom - 4 (Cascade/llandfall) Bruna, the Fading Light - 6 (Angel/Reanimator) Bruvac the Grandiloquent - 6 (Mill/control) Hapatra, Vizier of Poison - 7 (-1/-1, tokens) Kadeena, Slinking Sorcerer - 6 (Morph) Kodama of the Center Tree - 3 (Soulshift?!) Krark, the Thumbless / Sakashima of a Thousand Faces - 8 (Spellslinger, Would be a 9 but I left a couple other coinflips) Queen Marchesa, Long may she reign - 5 (Treasure/Monarch) Tinybones, Trinket Thief - 6 (Discard)
My group mainly plays in the 5-7 range. I generally make 4-6. One of the guys in our group usually builds 7’s, but I think he could effortlessly build 9’s if he wanted to. What he has been doing recently is thinking of obscure themes like elephant and making them powerful. He made a crab deck that often decimates us. Then there are people like my brother who only have 400 cards, so I sat down with him and helped him optimize with what he had and then bought a commander. I’d say his deck sits around 2-3. Then there’s the man who introduced me to the game, my dad, who has only two modern decks that were constructed about 20 years ago.
for your play group, if the mates are decent people (mutual trust is key), consider mixing up the decks among the players so there is more variety of match ups so even those with lower budget gets to experience playing something different and maybe everyone learns a little more after each game~
I think my favorite part of power levels is that combat damage is only a wincon at power levels 1-5 until you reach cedh, where rograch/Arden plus 2 stax pieces can beat up the table
Agreed. Love the difference between casual tables slinging creatures around, mid tables not attacking at all and then cedh chipping against the ad naus player.
Something I've seen is like the original precon commander decks fit in like a 3, cause they had 3 different choice commanders and 3 strategies they wanted all at once and it was unfocused. The power level of in the box precons has definitely gone up 1 to 1.5 levels in recent years
Feels like Joe has almost no idea what hes talking about past a power level 7 on this list, while Beezy has an actual understanding of the high power and comp level of the format.
The horror when I just realised I might be a try-hard. I have never been a competive person and I would never want to compromise the fun of a game to win... but part of the fun for me is deck-building. I enjoy optimising in my spare time. Looking now, my decks are all like Power-level 8... I live in a little town and my LGS has mostly Power-level 4 to 7. ... I need to get around to building some of my sillier deck ideas so I don't feel so nasty.
I would have to say the first commander deck I ever made, would have to be in power 5-6 range. Nice little combos, perfect lock downs, good board wipes, ramp when you need. And at least four to five win cons (about 18 cards in total). Needed work, but was pretty good. My play group disowned me afterwards but its fine
My combo is like 20+ cards long, technically. It's surge to victory, targeting a token creating instant sorcery in the GY, whille impact tremors is on the field. By targeting hordeling outburst, you can one shot everyone with 14 creatures and 3 spells, assuming no blockers. It's definitely not efficient, but it is funny when it happens.
I have a technically 20 card combo too that doesn't even win me the game directly: seagate lore master, wheel of sun and moon, 1000 year elixir, lots of allies, and flickers. I can draw my deck every turn and when I discard then they just go to my library. That's all it does for lots and lots of mana to spend every turn
Right from the get-go I have an issue with the factor "staples"; you can build a highly synergistic deck that can kill the board super fast by combining cards that arent staples. Likewise, "casual" card like cultivate is amazing when cast turn after putting out a Moraug, fury of Akoum.
the way i see it, there are four types of commander decks. Battlecruiser, Casual, High Power, and Competitive. Battlecruiser; you draw a card, maybe you do a thing. No one wants to board wipe because doing so restarts the game. Casual; more or less multiplayer solitaire, someone ends up being the "alpha" at the table but only able to eliminate one other player. Combos, if any, are like four or more different cards that loop. High Power; Everyone's "playing to win" but no one's optimized to actually do it that quickly. Each deck is lacking in some capacity. Competitive; All about playing to win, and ideally fast. Many different strategies.
you could do a series like "rank my EDH deck", let supporters submit a deck and talk about it, it's power level and what could be improved.
But I forgot to say, I love the content. Just you two talking about EDH is very interesting!
I love this idea
I would submit my sisay superfriends!
Bruh, that's a really good idea
That is a great idea!
This video is a solid 7/10. It could be more optimized, but it's the perfect level for fun
Well crafted joke, I’ll give it a 7/10
@@NitpickingNerds Your comment was solid, but more effort could have been put into it. I give it uuuuuuuuuuuh 7/10. You guys rock.
@@krisdaschwab912 I could give you lower score but I'll let it slide today 7/10
@@s1y_guy928 An interesting approach, could have been executed better I'll give a 7/10.
7/10 = perfect lmao!
I had about 20 rhystic studies from back in the day when I got back into magic a few years ago. Was pleased to see a common worth so much!
Wow you are literally that hypothetical guy we were talking about
@@NitpickingNerds Me too! Found an old plastic bag with Magic cards in the attic and it had 10 Rhystic Studies, one of them foil ^^ Now I have 14
same dude. Found 9 of em in my shoeboxes full of old commens. Always nice to find cards like Priest of Titania, Rhystic Study, Utopia Sprawl, ... in them boxes ;)
@@theeternallysurprised lol. The 11 you had wasn't enough 😂
to quote a very handsome man from yesterday, "Power level 1 decks have Grave Titan in them"
Which one?
I think it was me (Beezy)
A jajaja
I personally like grave titan bet ok
My friend's first intro to magic was with our extra commander decks. Watching him make a deck was so fun. He didn't come from standard so him putting his first deck together was so pure and fun. Every card seemed like the best card ever to him. We ended up giving him spare staples and cohesive cards we had but he had so much fun just playing a 1 or 2 it was still great
My introduction to Magic, my friends took me to a shop and helped me buy my first cards. Told me the basics and I put together some jank.
They stomped me into the ground without mercy, they put down Eldrazi and optimized beat down or control decks...
Eventually, through the crucible of fire, it molded me into an extremely oppressive, but flexible control style in which I was obsessed with having answers and protecting my creatures... fun times.
All I want in life is a signed grave titan by nitpicking nerds
We have sent out a few of those at this point!
If there's anything I've learned from deckbuilding, it's this: if you think you built your deck up to a 7, it's probably a 5. If you think you built your deck down to a 7, it's probably a 9.
eh, probably 8. 9 is fully optimized off meta decks or mostly optimized meta decks
It depends. In the context of this video, you're probably right. I don't fully agree with how the Nerds evaluate the top end as I feel like they lump too much together, though. Whatever the numbers, though, I think the broader point still applies for the average deckbuilder.
What if I think it’s a 4 at best?
Agree 100%
My first two years playing magic I told people my decks are 7's actually they were 5's.
Now after playing CEDH I went back and built my casual decks to ACTUAL 7's.
@@liamwelsh4665 then you are playing Slivers and need to revaluate how out of control they can get as to others it is going to feel like a 10 to everyone playing 8's and below yet somehow they lose to 9's and above
My rankings for decks
1-2: Jank
3-4: Precon
5-6: Synergy or Interaction
7-8: Synergy and Interaction
9-10: CEDH
My decks are 5 - 6 just interaction, or synergy and my crazy friends they have Cedh decks, very unfair but they say it's normal, but the power level is too high no fun at all.
Similar to my tiers:
1-2: Memes and Jank
3-4: Precons and Casuals
5-6: High Synergy Decks (no infinite combos)
7-8: Optimized and Infinite Combos
9-10: CEDH
id argue that some precons with a small 20 to 30 dollar upgrade would be a 7-8
@@joshandrews515 I agree that changes to a precon can make a difference but thats because you are adding Synergy and Synergy changes score.
For me it’s
1-2 jumble of cards that technically make a legal deck
3-4 jank/meme deck that may not seek to win but do something else
5 is the power level of all the precons that didn’t come out in 2017
6 is like slightly better precon or a budget deck
7 is an average commander deck with synergies and interaction
8 is a very powerful commander deck (can sorta hold its own against cedh decks)
9-10 are cedh decks
What I have noticed is that tutors are really what start to power decks up in the 9-10 range. You could play combos and card draw engines but still be at a 7, but when you throw tutors in the deck it jumps you up quick.
That's what I noticed too. A friend bought around 5 to 8 tutors. Now it's just tutor into foodchain and over :D
@@Maulwurm1 exactly, From my experience anything over 2 tutors and the deck consistency is a higher level.
I have Demonic Tudor and Diabolic Tutor, both are the Liliana version. so beautiful
You could also have demonic tutor in your deck but your combos are so janky it’s still considered a 5. This power scale based on “generalized decks” are janky. You can scale cards, but not so easily decks.
Like 90% of it, I still think cEDH needs 2 slots on the numbers (9 and 10) as there are definitely at least 2 tiers of decks in cEDH. Really like your discussion of numbers 1 through 8. I build solidly in the 5-7 range 9 times out of 10, would like to push them into the 6-8 over time.
9-9.5 is for cEDH and 9.6-10 is cEDH with the higher tier commanders.
I think the blurred lines often come from gameplay itself. Sometimes you can have decks with phyrexian arenas and cultivates that fall into 7s due to the deck being incredibly synergistic and fluid. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts
The lines will always be blurred
those get played on game knights a decent amount
@@NitpickingNerds I don't know, man.
Those song lyrics and innuendo walk a wobbling tightrope - precariously fraying at the ends - hundreds of stories above a dark and dreary pit of sexual assault references and allegations.
I think Robin Thicke meant well, but the performance with Miley Cyrus at the VMAs... ...murky area.
The whole experience seemed a little too on-meta for my playgroup here in Cyrus.
Sometimes it feels like we're a jar of spicy mustard being meticulously spatula-ed into a thick creamy layer atop a steaming hot pork sandwich - glistening with shimmering dewdrops of oily lipids under the soft crimson flourescent glow of a strange terrarium's heat lamp.
That's life though, man. That's life.
@@notbot4525 I have no idea what just happened
@@notbot4525 …so many words without making any sense..
I remember a few years ago when I first got into commander I built a niv-mizzet the firemind I opened from a masters 25 pack and won with the curiosity combo that I had accidentally put in the deck without realizing the combo
It’s nice to have some kind of a description for each deck level since no one seemed to give a decent scale before with each level described and would basically say “if it’s below a 6 then it’s not really commander”
We really wanted to get a nice detailed scale out there!!
Most of mine fall between 5 to 8 range.
The hard part about rating a deck that's custom built is you have to know how to pilot that deck
95% of decks fall between 5 to 8
"Inconsistent at best"- I have finally found my home.
This made me lol 😂
Restricting CDH to only 10's gives so much desperately needed room to the casual decks on the scale and I think the 4 levels (6-9) for casual decks better than precons seems pretty appropriate based on my own decks.
I play my best deck with a group every weekend, and I've won 3 times like outa 50 cause they always play level 9s & 10s however I always show, cause it's so fun
This was helpful. I thought my decks wer around 8 but there closer to 6 and 7. It seems like 8 and higher is basically 60 card decks, no variety same hand every game
I think 9 is where you see the same games
"u won't be winning with combat damage in high power"
Najeela- "hold my beer."
That’s a combo!
@@NitpickingNerds There's a couple games I have seen in cedh where combat damage put in massive amounts of work, specifically with the black/white partner, or to counter black decks. Generally combat *wins*, though, I agree.
blood pod- "they said what now?....."
edric turn & burn honorable mention
Winota does on occasion
Nice job guys. I think this scale has a lot of context for the qualitative aspect of EDH deck building that a quantitative scale can't really grasp. Additionally, the perspective of knowing your deck's power level so that you don't hurt other's M:tG experience rather than focusing on knowing power level so that you can win every game is a really refreshing.
Yes!
In the spirit of really fun 5-power decks, I made a Moritte of the Frost deck that was just reasonable draw, reasonable card draw, and then basically every clone effect in existence. I run Vesuva and Thespian’s Stage, but nothing exciting to copy. I never have any idea what I’m playing, since it’s entirely just cloning everybody else’s boards.
It's actually a dream of mine to build a deck like that xD
I have a Riku just like that, red helps to copy instant and sorceries.
Only decks I want to make these days include not playing my own deck.
1. Clone effects
2. Red betrayal effects
3. Gonti/Etali type effects
4. Combat tricks, but only used on opponent creatures
5. Goad
6. Copy tribal, but copy only opponent spells
@@hexx_4093 might I recommend Jon Irenicus, Shattered One
It involves forcing others to play your deck, and then just giving them the worst or most punishing cards you can
Toss in a siphon insight and rogue class so you can steal stuff in the interim
Edit: it also falls under your goad category
I liked how you mentioned that super high power level decks can still lose to low power decks cause they are so different. There’s a card I love, Cursed Totem, turns off mana dorks and activated abilities of creatures requiring a cost, it can hose a lot of decks, but may do absolutely nothing against some decks.
It can happen but they also have a worped view of what Cedh is, they play Cedh if your deck is a strong 8 it can hang in Cedh and you won't fine more than 1 or 2 cards in a edh deck that are dead in regular pods. For example I've never seen mental mistep or rest in piece in Cedh you see swan song or mental mistep and I've never seen a Cedh deck card about the graveyard.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 If people wanted to use the grave in cEDH they would use it as makeshift tutors as in virtual card advantage by returning stuff to the hand after putting it there from the deck. But unless you can break something like a Phage the Untouchable there is really no reason to make a cEDH deck based around the grave till they make a 5 color commander that interacts with the graveyard so Graveborn would actually be viable. And Phage is just a hypothesis like i know you can build a deck around that as a 9 but i am not sure you could make it a 10 and no one really wants to build gimmicks unless its Stax for some reason as people sure love their prison decks instead of using Stax like cards to make a 8 or 9 able to keep up with 10's and have a great chance to win with their win con.
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena do you know what reanimator is?
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 is it any different than Graveborn other than a different name? the premise is the same cheat things out from the grave
"Self-Proclaimed Gay Man" Me too :D
😜😜😜
@Spooky_Mega_Gengar The Belmont the only beard I ever had was a very nice girl, didn't last long though lol
Honestly I would never have guessed
I would say mine would fit around the 6-8 levels depending on what's available. I rarely buy new singles unless its for the base of an archetype. Lots of times, I like throwing in some uncommonly used cards and meta-dependent in specific playgroups.
That's a neat philosophy, you probably save a lot of money lol
me at the beginning : I’m interested in this video
me at the end : OMG THIS CAT IS SO CUTEEE
LOVE MY KITTY
I think you made a great point with the "CEDH format" being misinterpreted in title. I think CEDH meta is a better term, that more fully represents what is actually happening at that level.
Hey, I really appreciate the work you guys put into your videos. The dynamic and fluidness of discussion is very natural and you cover a lot of ground with the seer amount of content you make.. I started magic 3 months ago and I'm already competing with my friends well established decks. Thanks a lot!
sheer*
Easiest question to ask your playgroup to figure out power scale: is red elemental blast good?
If yes high if no not so much
Second question, is annul good?
@@trashtronics1700 from a beginner: how would they be good? I mean, useful if you play against blue decks, but i find it way too situational?
@@nordin.munteanu you can counter any counter to defend your own spells. also, in a competitive pod, you’re going to be playing against blue/black
@@nordin.munteanu that's kind of the joke they're getting at here. If yes, it more than likely means the group is cEDH because in cedh cards that are far too situational for more casual games can be very useful in games that are usually having a potential win threat come in around turn 3-4.
After playing both for a little bit, one of the biggest differences between Yugioh and Magic (in relation to attitude) is that EVERYONE in Yugioh plays with a CEDH mentality. Winning is first and foremost for 98% of players, then you choose your deck based on what can actually potentially win within your price range. I remembered being kind of baffled by the hate for tutors because they're just so absurdly common in Yugioh. Even with 40 card decks being the norm, pretty much every deck has at least 1 built-in tutor (with 3 being common) as well as 15 cards you have access to 100% of the time. _Many of which being tutors._ You'll absolutely be seeing a lot of the same combos every game, but only in the first couple turns. After which the disruption, board breaking, and grind game makes each game feel different.
Well yeah but yugioh only has the 1v1 format, and it's 💯 percent about winning in 1v1 magic too. But commander is such a unique beast, where it's supposed to be about having fun first and winning second
Not always, My. Friend and I have old school decks (no links no modern acrhtypes etc). Some fun throwback games are possible! Especially in paper, with masterduel you can build optimal meta deck and play on ladders but not enough yuigoh players in my town to justify building perfect decks.
You guys should really go over your own decks in an episode and rank their power levels!!!
This is the Grave Titan report.
Our research has concluded this video features Grave Titan at 1:30.
Thank you for reading the Grave Titan report.
The network is cancelling the Grave Titan Report. We can't be signal boosting this kind of thing
I have a rhystic study because I played in the 90s. I feel so seen rn
WE. SEE. YOU.
@@NitpickingNerds Imagine my surprise when I looked at what a Palinchron now goes for after tossing that thing around without a sleeve all those years ago. Can I get a time machine to have my teenage self invest big into Urza's block?
Great content and examples, as always, gentlemen. I really enjoyed the descriptions of what makes a "5". Great things to use as examples for newer players. Love it!
I think we did a good job with this vid, too!
Kitchen table commander is the best commander. It's your basic battlecruiser format where everyone is playing their pet cards they like, and nobody has to sit down knowing "okay, Nate over there has 10 win cons that he can rip off with no warning, so we need to suppress him." Yes, I"m an old, boring geezer, but I liked commander before the precons.
... You mean to tell me that I built power level 8 decks on a whim without any tutorials? I finally have something to be proud of... Thank you. :')
We built a power level 1 when I started in 1995. Me and my friend took our 300 cards shuffled them together and we each got half. Sometimes we had no way to play certain spells because one of us would have Deep Spawn but the other had all the islands in their deck. Good times.
This is how drafting should be smh
I am just gonna assume that my Grave Titan cloning and Nils Hamm art tribal deck is a solid 11/10
Yeah might even be 12
@@NitpickingNerds eh, I'd say more like an 11.5, 12 is storm crow voltron
@@silasjude662 lame now mountain goat voltron is where it's at.
Nah a 12 is like gruul mill with pako as the commander, milling away one card every attack, busted
Great and logical.
Imma grade my decks from NN1-10 from now on :)
Excellent description of the power levels.
7-8 is definitely the sweet spot for me.
A lot of people find that 6's and 7's are the sweet spot for them however people that don't really have much time to spare would play high power EDH up to 9 that way they can at least get in a good amount of games especially if they don't see each other for 3 weeks at a time
when you mentioned the whole "50 rhystic studies from playing in the 80s" thing it reminded me that a friend in my playgroup who has been playing forever used to have like multiple playsets of things like dual lands, force of wills, etc. but they sold them a long time ago. So unfortunate since they wouldve had like tens of thousands of dollars.
Awesome work guys! i stopped watching commander quarter’s for you, now o don’t think i even search for the command zone anymore! Keep it up, blessings
Sorry Jimmy Josh and Mitch but that's great to hear for us anyway 😂 thanks for hanging out with us!
One year ago or smthing i buyd an obuun precon and it was so interresting to see it developing from an 4 to maybe an 8 now it is an omnath deck with shock and fetchlands and cards like cyclonic rift
Omnath is so easy to make stupid strong 💪 because he is so good 😊
Hope comments stay nice. Very controvercial vid. I as a commander cube player always watching out for more cube vids. Always love watching you. Much love from the netherlands
It's so hard discussing rule 0 with my orvar deck. "Whats your win condition?". "I don't have any dedicated win cons, but everything is a win con in this deck.".
I have a 5 color token/artifacts deck a lot like that where I can win with almost any 2-3 cards in the deck. Everything combos with each other.
I tend not to worry about the power level of decks. I just enjoy building around a theme usually or an off meta tribal. Example being, I am planning to build warlock tribal once Strixhaven is a bit more obtainable. I want to do a food theme deck with the new chef Commander as well. Should be fun. :)
Off-meta tribal? Never heard of it.
I mean Yurlok Shaman tribal and Oyobi spirits are meta, aren't they?
This is actually a really comprehensive guide! I expected it to be another one of those vague ones that just says like numbers and then a couple descriptors, but this is super simple to use! I think the 2 main decks I have are probably both around 6-7 which is surprising because of how differently they function. One of them is a Mazirek persist combo deck but with 2 tutors and not very many persist cards to get the win, and the other is a najeela warrior tribal deck, which function super different but are both around a similar power which is interesting to me!
Hey I'm really glad you found this guide useful :D Hopefully we can get that link working for everyone lol
I appreciate you guys and the efforts to keep the format healthy.
While watching this video, I feel like you built a good case for the vast majority of decks to actually be 7... you said people build up and down to that level 7.
It's casual staples but several competitive staples as well.
It just felt like you guys confirmed the " I'm a level 7" meme to just be real. Lol
I always love to hear other peoples thoughts on deck power level. Great video Joe & Beezy
I would say about most pre cons are around 4-6 depending on the cost of the deck and the commander. Example: Necron Dynasties is fairly optimized for a precon I'd probably put it in the 6 to almost 7 range where as Phantom Premonition is on the much lower end probably lying around a 4 even more closer to a 3(I've played it it's awful). so if you're playing people in this range and you realize you're winning about 50-75% of the time through normal play you're probably more on the 7 to 8 scale, 9-10 should look something along the lines of turn 1 a bunch of 0 drop cost cards into win or win on turn 2 if your opponent has any interactions it's going to be a counter spell or on to the next game. 10 is also where it splits off into commander tiers. Some commanders are just better and no amount of level ten play cards is going to matter.
i like to make decks that cost $20 or less, and going by this scale, they tend to sit at around a 4-5.
How do they play?
@@NitpickingNerds honestly ive tried to play a few of these and they caaaaaan win but its more for flavor or fun. I build a 50 dollar beckett brass deck and it just beat the shit out of people and steals all of those juicy permenants
@@NitpickingNerds I’ve been needing help with optimizing my $50 budget deck for Scorpion God. My lgs has a competitive budget commander league, and the meta there is voltron and going wide with creature spam and combat damage. Every time I control the board when things get out of control, and draw cards to keep my engine going, I often end up getting 3 v 1ed and idk what I’m doing wrong
20$ u are at 3
At 20$ that means u have an average value of 20 cents per cards... gee a snow land is worth 40 cents...
I think this is the first power level scale I almost entirely agree with
Wow that's pretty big!
Great Video!
Its amazingly well explaining.
I showed your video to my table, since they are newer to commander than I and they really got the message from you guys :)
My playgroup and I we agreed to certain rules, like certain budget limitations and agreed on a few mechanics we dont want to play (Heavy Stax/MLD)
But besides that things are fun.
I atm use a Roulette to determine which of my 6 Decks I play
And my strongest seems to be my Jhoira-Artifact-Storm Deck which would fall around 8-9 in your Metric
with my soon to be improved Jirina Deck at 6 atm.
Great topic, thanks for talking about something that's too often overlooked at the kitchen table! 💯👏🏻
It definitely can be!
The last time i was this early, cultivate was meta.
HA 😂
I just can’t let it go....
Don't think you remember me from the Discord before I left, but my flaw, is I want to get cards from as many mechanics from magic's history as I can... so I'm stuck at level 5 for power
love ur decktechs/card reviews/ help with certain aspects of the game. Keep it up
If we can help anyone get better and/or have more fun then we are happy :)
Great video. Most of my decks fall in the 6-8 range. I always keep a "break in case of emergency" combo. Sick content. If I had the time I'd get into your Discord.
It'll always be open if you find time! Thanks for your kind words :)
Really great video!!, Wondering where your powered up precon builds from the years past fall on your scale?
I own several perfectly tuned by you guys and love them dearly.
I’m nit sure actually we would have to look them back over but I would guess 5-6
Thanks, probably what I thought based on empirical data.... The thing that nobody talks about with power level is is your commanders plan a relevant win condition. It may just say it's going to do this cool thing once and that is not win the game focused.
Im thinkin mine sit between 6 and 10. I'll optimize a precon, then use whats leftover from it and my trade binder cards to build a second deck with it.
Will never be a 10 or even close to a 9 then. Those are CEDH with highly optimized decks, multiple tutors, the best fast mana and ramp, usually doesnt cost less than 1k
I just started trying to get into commander and learn about the format and I happened to find 17 Studies from Prophecy while sifting through my collection. Cracks me up seeing the price getting so high.
I fuckin love the way you look at each other while talking
26:00 I actually got to experience that once. Someone brought their cedh deck, and we played a few rounds, of which I only won one of because he scooped after I was able to consistently interact until turn 5.
I was playing a Niv-Mizzett, the Firemind deck (built around draw and burn into Isochron scepter and dramatic reversal), which was probably a 6 on this scale.
Can't remember their commander, but their main wincon involved going infinite with Kiki-Jiki, had a ton of expensive fast mana, and consistently won by turn 4.
Yeah it depends a lot on which cEDH deck you play against. A ton of them run like 20-30% cards that are dead draws vs. power 5-6 decks. And if their combo is countered, it takes longer to recover. But I also think that some decks like Rog-Silas or Codie are practically impossible for a lower power deck to beat as they consistently win on ~t2. t4 is considered mid-range to slow in the cEDH format.
How strong?
Me: Yes.
Great video, gentlemen.
this video made the tiers make so much more sense to me. finally i know what to say
As a new follower I'm happy to hear you guys can shoot videos full time
Just yesterday I was thinking that I wanted to evaluate the power level of my decks, and it would have been so cool if the Nitpicking Nerds did w video on the topic! And I'm not even joking :)
What a coincidence!
Now I want a mono blue commander with "Flying. islands in your hand have flash. Whenever you play an island you may counter target spell. Whenever an island enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature."
I've watched bunch of your guys videos and just realized the plushies in the background match the land pictures behind them :p clever decor
We felt like galaxy brained youtubers when we thought of that
My deck is either a 9 or a 10 on your scale. When I get home will upload the link. I play a chatterfang mild budget.
Nice rundown Nerds! Perfect mix of explanation + examples.
We went for maximum helpfulness! This is one of our best videos IMO
To build on the one of the top comments, once you have reviewed enough decks there starts to be a "baseline" that's established so it can actually be one of things that's daunting and seems impossible at first but once you have a few hundred in the bank and do compilation videos,, it'll be a resource point for every single EDH player and an invaluable amount of content. Just food for though 🥑
I guess my decks are as following.
[Assumed Power Level] - Commander (Notable cards)
A) [8] - "Anowon the Ruin Thief (Cyclonic Rift, Chrome Mox, Varragoth Bloodsky Sire, Rankle Master of Pranks, Scheming Symmetry, Notorious Thong, Maddening Cacophony, many unblockable Rogues)
B) [7.5] - "Wyleth, Soul of Steel" (Sword of Body and Mind, Argentum Armor, Stonehewer Giant, Darksteel Plate, Grafted Exoskeleton, Spectra Ward, Sunforger, many free equip stuff)
C) [7] - "Gisela, Blade of Goldnight" [Heartless Hidetsugu, Pyrohemia, Fiery Emancipation, Runed Halo, Chandra Torch of Defiance, many burn and white selective protection)
D) [7] "Volrath, the Shapestealer" (Inexorable Tide, Black Sun's Zenith, Necroskitter, many Shapeshifter, Loyal Guardian, Blighted Agent, Myojin of Night's Reach)
I'm too poor to afford power level 5 and above decks, I have to work with what jank chaff I have and I think it has made me a better magic player.
“The casual staples” smothering tithe and rhystic study? Maybe when they came out lol
Very helpful. Thank you gentlemen!
32:37
The fabled Power level 11 deck arrives.
This episode took me back to my first deck. Solid 3 OG Borborygmos and every single mana dork I could find.
Hey that sounds pretty deece for a first deck!
Deck power 11! One drop to a table flip. BOOM!
Dang!
"How many spot removals and board whipes do you run?"
-well, my comander is Reaperking, so there is that......
All of my decks and some guessed power levels:
Averna, the Chaos Bloom - 4 (Cascade/llandfall)
Bruna, the Fading Light - 6 (Angel/Reanimator)
Bruvac the Grandiloquent - 6 (Mill/control)
Hapatra, Vizier of Poison - 7 (-1/-1, tokens)
Kadeena, Slinking Sorcerer - 6 (Morph)
Kodama of the Center Tree - 3 (Soulshift?!)
Krark, the Thumbless / Sakashima of a Thousand Faces - 8 (Spellslinger, Would be a 9 but I left a couple other coinflips)
Queen Marchesa, Long may she reign - 5 (Treasure/Monarch)
Tinybones, Trinket Thief - 6 (Discard)
My group mainly plays in the 5-7 range. I generally make 4-6. One of the guys in our group usually builds 7’s, but I think he could effortlessly build 9’s if he wanted to. What he has been doing recently is thinking of obscure themes like elephant and making them powerful. He made a crab deck that often decimates us. Then there are people like my brother who only have 400 cards, so I sat down with him and helped him optimize with what he had and then bought a commander. I’d say his deck sits around 2-3. Then there’s the man who introduced me to the game, my dad, who has only two modern decks that were constructed about 20 years ago.
for your play group, if the mates are decent people (mutual trust is key), consider mixing up the decks among the players so there is more variety of match ups so even those with lower budget gets to experience playing something different and maybe everyone learns a little more after each game~
@@wbw911 we constantly play with each other’s decks.
@@BattleKing00 ah that is good experience, glad that you've found a good play group~
Wow you guys delivered on this video pretty quick! Super excited for this one!
This was a lot of fun to brainstorm :D
@@NitpickingNerds I think you established a pretty solid rubric here.
The rhystic study comment fits me perfectly
Lol the “deck evolving” and the “staples showing up” comment from B had me cackling
Really good explanation to a fairly new player ty
I think my favorite part of power levels is that combat damage is only a wincon at power levels 1-5 until you reach cedh, where rograch/Arden plus 2 stax pieces can beat up the table
Agreed. Love the difference between casual tables slinging creatures around, mid tables not attacking at all and then cedh chipping against the ad naus player.
Something I've seen is like the original precon commander decks fit in like a 3, cause they had 3 different choice commanders and 3 strategies they wanted all at once and it was unfocused. The power level of in the box precons has definitely gone up 1 to 1.5 levels in recent years
My Lathiel Deck is my best deck. Realistically can get to over 100 life and put that many counters on my creatures. Such an underrated Commander
Glad I watched to the end. Got to see a cat!
“Well me from the past”… crash course reference?!!
Feels like Joe has almost no idea what hes talking about past a power level 7 on this list, while Beezy has an actual understanding of the high power and comp level of the format.
Could you guys rank every Commander precon ever made, and rank their power level?
I was actually thinking about that as a potential video idea!
The horror when I just realised I might be a try-hard.
I have never been a competive person and I would never want to compromise the fun of a game to win... but part of the fun for me is deck-building. I enjoy optimising in my spare time.
Looking now, my decks are all like Power-level 8... I live in a little town and my LGS has mostly Power-level 4 to 7.
... I need to get around to building some of my sillier deck ideas so I don't feel so nasty.
Very happy for you guys, keep up the good work!
We're happy to, thanks!!
I would have to say the first commander deck I ever made, would have to be in power 5-6 range. Nice little combos, perfect lock downs, good board wipes, ramp when you need. And at least four to five win cons (about 18 cards in total). Needed work, but was pretty good. My play group disowned me afterwards but its fine
The last deck I built was a 2, maybe a 3. I love it!
My combo is like 20+ cards long, technically. It's surge to victory, targeting a token creating instant sorcery in the GY, whille impact tremors is on the field. By targeting hordeling outburst, you can one shot everyone with 14 creatures and 3 spells, assuming no blockers.
It's definitely not efficient, but it is funny when it happens.
I have a technically 20 card combo too that doesn't even win me the game directly: seagate lore master, wheel of sun and moon, 1000 year elixir, lots of allies, and flickers. I can draw my deck every turn and when I discard then they just go to my library. That's all it does for lots and lots of mana to spend every turn
Right from the get-go I have an issue with the factor "staples"; you can build a highly synergistic deck that can kill the board super fast by combining cards that arent staples. Likewise, "casual" card like cultivate is amazing when cast turn after putting out a Moraug, fury of Akoum.
the way i see it, there are four types of commander decks. Battlecruiser, Casual, High Power, and Competitive.
Battlecruiser; you draw a card, maybe you do a thing. No one wants to board wipe because doing so restarts the game.
Casual; more or less multiplayer solitaire, someone ends up being the "alpha" at the table but only able to eliminate one other player. Combos, if any, are like four or more different cards that loop.
High Power; Everyone's "playing to win" but no one's optimized to actually do it that quickly. Each deck is lacking in some capacity.
Competitive; All about playing to win, and ideally fast. Many different strategies.
Wish u guys showed all the cards that was mentioned. Kinda hard trying to understand the context without knowing what the mentioned card does 😅