Dear Andreas and Daniel, underneath I have a question. Thank you Andreas and Daniel, for this wonderful conversation. It so great to see how the thought patterns, behavior etc. during insomnia are linked to the anxiety disorders that Andreas mentioned. This was exactly what I was looking for, to break free from the narrative you fear makes. I can now accept that it's very logical my brain/body/fear made this narrative due to bad experiences in the past. I am grateful they protected me. But right now they try to protect me from something that simply isn't there anymore. After years of searching, trying, making efforts, I realize that I tried to protect myself from a bear that's not there! I mostly learned to research my fear, understand whether its logical I have it or not. Try to rationalize it. And once I found the right belief/rationale/understanding I can come back to that everytime my brain signals anxiety. with selfcompassion, effortlessness and self love. Question Currently I am struggling very much with the opposite of insomnia/wakefulness. I struggle with being afraid of being tired. This is due to a burn out I have. I am afraid that an activity might make me tired and hence cause me to burn out again. I am searching for evidence that my body can heal from this burn out, although I am tired. Just like you mention that the body is able to sleep. Any suggestions/ideas on this one?
Actually, like Andreas, I had panic attacks for a bit, long before insomnia, and the only way I got over them was do something called "the floating technique" (invented by Claire Weekes, who was a forerunner to acceptance-based therapy) where you literally just let yourself have them while not doing anything to resist them (hence floating). After the second time of doing it, I've never had a panic attack ever again. But that's not the point. The point is that panic attacks, when you're having them, will actually have a shorter shelf-life when you're no longer interpreting all the physical symptoms as a direct threat to your life (all of which are caused by adrenaline and other hormones). My average panic attack would last for HOURS. Once I applied the technique, it lasted all of 5 minutes. Having said that. I've not been able to transpose this nifty technique to the panic of insomnia. It's bizarre: if I had a panic attack right now, I'd laugh in it's stupid face. But if I begin to think about not sleeping, fear bests be every time.
Wow thanks so much for sharing this Stephen.. this will surely help so many with panic attacks who read this. And you know, just putting panic attacks in the same category as insomnia, seeing that they both could be met the same way… I think this is a step towards doing just that..
I have been thinking about the Ekhart Tolle type ancient-wisdom teaching in relation to Daniel's lately so it's great to hear them discussed here. I think and feel they are the same. Same message. Daniel's is for us on the scientific/medical level and Tolle's on the spiritual. But they are running parallel. Both are important aspects of the same thing and both meet in the realm of the psychological. Daniel explains brain is trying to help us (but making it worse), Tolle says mind/ego is trying to distract us from our true power -the observer self. Can seem contradictory but same thing working on different levels of being. I find both really helpful but did feel stressed about which to 'choose' for the sleep problem, till I realised it's the same thing just from different perspectives :). Really love these two videos by the way, thank you both -absolutely brilliant :)
Re: observation. The only thing I would add is advice to not do the opposite---which is to evaluate. There's a book called Nonviolent Communication that argues 'evaluation' leads to defensiveness and thus resistance.
Resistance, this is really what leads to struggle isn’t it.. and so helpful to see that when we go the other way, which I’m sure this comment can help with, there’s less struggle!
Hi Sleep coach, hi Andreas - I have a fundamental question. Your whole approach, Daniel, is based on the fact that wakefulness is a perceived thread. You often speak of insomnia as a "fear of a grizzly bear", while in reality, there is none. BUT - and this is my point - when I hear Andreas talk about his insomnia (fear) and experience, than his life was really miserable, the experience must be hellish. Isn't such an experience a "real grizzly bear"??? Isn't it a real threat?? Isn't it more than normal to be scared of getting to such a point although this fear may become almost self-fulfilling??
Hi Peter! Thanks so much for this question, the question shows that you have a really learned a lot that I think will be really helpful. I’m assuming that you had some trouble sleeping but either way, it can help and many other areas of life so again really glad to read this :-) The way I would answer this is to say that the battle scars are real but that doesn’t mean that there was an enemy. It just shows that there was a battle. In other words, the suffering that Andreas one through is very real. The anxiety and the sadness and the pondering and all that was very very real. But this doesn’t mean that there was a real threat. Buy real threat I mean something that can actually cause your physical harm. And the reason this is important is that all the suffering comes from the idea that you are in real danger of physical harm. You can say that the emotional scars are real, but there’s was no real adversary or enemy. The scars come from the struggle to stay safe from something that didn’t exist. Another way to put it is that “there is no grizzly bear only grizzly fear”. And absolutely it’s normal to be scared of having all the suffering Andreas went through, and it’s true that fear of fear can produce suffering. And I think the way to meet this is the same…. Seeing that fear is uncomfortable but it cannot harm you… Did this make sense Peter?
I have a question for Andreas. Did you ever find it helpful to kind of “remind yourself” of your old self? Like while in the struggle, you would view yourself as your old self before insomnia but simply with this layer of immense pain and fear? This is something I find I do a lot and it grounds me and takes me back to reality which is that I’m still the same person as I was before insomnia but just with this layer of deep pain and struggle. Also I love that you said don’t trust your personal narrative because that’s something I find I do so much. I create this narrative and then I just fall so deeply into it. Just like with this creation of insomnia. It’s like I create a conspiracy theory about something but I start to believe it 100%. Anyway I share a lot of similarities with your story (ocd, insomnia) and I feel Iike we have similar minds even though I’m a 22 yr old girl from Florida!
Hi Ellie😀 that sounds like a good way of coming out of your mind created narrative. In my thinking I would like to take that even further and work on coming out of you mindmade life story narrative alltogether. Because otherwise you will still compare your different parts of your life and it will be more difficult to let go of your situation now, which is in fact allready the past😉 I hope I dont get too confusing here.. I can really recommend watching some of Eckart Tolles speech here on youtube. I wish you all the best in your journey. All the best😀
@@andreasLindelof thank you for responding Andreas! That’s actually something I’ve thought about a few times but I wouldn’t know how to go about it. Because reminding my current self of my past self brings me great comfort and makes me feel less like a stranger from my “former” self. Like she’s still in there, it’s just my quality of life feels different. I think something I do often is dissociate from myself and run on auto-pilot because the pain of not being able to willfully sleep is so strong and difficult so when I’m usually always like this, I need to ground myself by reminding myself that I wasn’t always like this, or else I just won’t be actually living a life. Does this make any sense? Did you ever dissociate?
Hi, great episode. I’ve been suffering from extremely acute anxiety every day for a while. I don’t know if it’s related to sleep but it’s just really uncomfortable. The more I welcome it the more powerful it becomes. I don’t know if I need serious mental health intervention or if this is manageable and will pass.
Hi Jake, So glad you tuned in.. I think there’s so much to learn from these two episodes with Andreas.. and you know, often it seems like it’s really important that we make the right decision, when there’s really believing theres something we can do and pondering what to do that is the struggle we are in.. and when we leave the struggle we have peace.. hang in there
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thanks I’m doing better. I take mitrazapine as medication for depression and anxiety, which has sleep inducing properties. Is this a sleep crutch? I take it and it makes me sleep well, I don’t take it because it makes me sleep well. Thanks for answering.
Hi Jake, glad to hear this. And I have some teaching that I think really clarifies if something is an effort or not, let’s take a look. - The way to know if you had intent to make sleep happen or not you can tell basically by how you feel thinking about it beforehand or how you thought of it afterwards. If you think of something you would like to do for example listening to a podcast at night and that gives you a little bit of anxiety feeling, there’s probably intent. Because you have a hope that it will make you sleep and also a fear of “what if it doesn’t work”. If you think of something you would like to do for example again listening to a podcast and you feel a sense of relief, then there’s probably no intent. Because you’re stepping away from trying which is liberating. Another good way is to ask yourself how do you think of it afterwards. If you think “that didn’t work” or “I didn’t sleep despite” or “I did this but I still didn’t sleep” - then you also know there was intent. If you on the other hand don’t make any connections between what you did and how you slept, there was no intent! - Hope this helps Jake!
@@mriko3970 I’ve been doing well for months. I’ve stopped taking all medication and just focus on what I’ve learned from this channel. Still have difficult nights but I’m learning to cope with them.
Hi Daniel! Big fan of your channel. I have had insomnia for a bit more than a month now, and currently working with a CBT-i coach. There have been some improvements in my sleep, but not much improvement in my thoughts around sleep. I still worry a lot. In your personal experience, do people having insomnia for only a short period of time see quicker success with CBT-i and restoring sleep confidence? I am still being patient and willing to stick to it.
Hi Risheet and thanks so much for the support 😊 You know, as you may have seen from my content, I’m quite skeptical of CBTi. Or rather I think if it as a gamble. Some get really lucky and their belief in the process or therapist translates into thinking “great there’s nothing wrong with me, and I don’t need to anything to sleep well”. But many end up either in a “truce” where things get a little better but they still think they have to use “techniques” to keep the threat of insomnia at bay… there’s still a belief that they’re different and need to do things to not have trouble… and often this ends up actually leading to more struggle again. Because when the “techniques stop working” the fear is strong. For some there’s just not even any relief, Cbti leads to even more attention towards sleep and more trouble. All this to say it’s super nice that you’ve seen things gotten a bit easier, and it’s so helpful to see that this is from understanding and becoming less afraid… not building a strong sleep drive, sleep drive isn’t the problem! And if you’re learning and overall feel you’re on a nice trajectory, this is super! But know that many continue to have some struggle after a cbti course, this is very normal and common. Doesn’t say anything about you! Now my experience has been that there’s no way to predict at all. You can have a client who struggled for years and they do well in a few months or a client who had trouble for a month and it takes several months… or vice versa! One thing that I think always is true however is that forecasting in itself is problematic.. We should talk a bit more about this but first a few words on confidence. If you think about somebody who sleeps really well, you can imagine asking them how confident they are in their ability to sleep. They would kinda shrug and not know what to say! Because sleep to them isn’t something they have to make happen, it happens by itself! In other words, they have no sleep confidence in a sense that they have no confidence in any ability to produce sleep. They don’t even have confidence in that there’s nothing wrong with them. So here’s the thing - you don’t need any confidence at all to sleep well. And this is so important because trying to build confidence or make yourself confident causes so much unnecessary struggle! You can sleep well and have peace of mind without any belief, hope, confidence or conviction that this is possible! Knowing this can truly lead to a big step away from struggle and to peace. Ok now back to forecasting! We humans have become pretty good at predicting the weather, but we still can’t predict the stock market. Why is this? In both instances we use very very sophisticated tools like data models and super computers. Here’s the thing, whether you predict that it’s gonna rain or not doesn’t change whether it’s gonna rain or not. Predicting has absolutely no impact on the weather. But when people try to predict the stock market something very different happens. When people predict that all the prices are going to go low then people start buying and then they go high. The same thing happens with sleep. Predicting how you’re going to sleep causes these sometimes wild and unpredictable effects. If you predict that you’re going to sleep well then they can either make you calm so that it does happen, OR it makes you pay more attention to sleep and then you sleep less! If you predict that you won’t sleep that can make you frustrated so that you sleep little, OR you feel less pressured to sleep and sleep more. As you can see, forecasting sleep creates a very unpredictable pattern so hard as it is, the best to do is trying not to predict. Because when you’re not trying predict, then sleep comes easier and becomes (paradoxically!) more predictable. Risheet, did this make sense?
Hi Daniel, sorry to keep troubling you. I think I asked this question but can’t find it! I am so desperate for help.I have had three nights now without any sleep.I have been for the last few weeks befriending wakefulness and feel comfortable awake at night, but it doesn’t seem to be making any difference.When I close my eyes there is this heaviness to sleep but I can feel my brain braking and stopping me.I worried I will never be able to sleep again.Will it burn itself out? I don’t know what to do.Many thanks
Hi Abigail, don’t hesitate to ask, thats what this channel is here for! You know, it really is tricky because the more we crave/desire/hope for sleep… the less we sleep. It’s like selling, we don’t want to buy when the salesperson is desperate, but it’s so hard for her not to be desperate if she hasn’t sold anything in days.. yet, it’s when she goes “I see that my desperation is why this is happening, and as difficult as it is, it’s when I become less attached and accept that I have no control that things will get easier” this is when things start to change… And you know, befriending wakefulness is really just a nudge towards becoming more ok with not sleeping… when we use befriending wakefulness as a technique or tool to sleep.. well then it just becomes a sleep effort! Abigail, when we think “what if this never ends” it’s just a sign that we have a normal brain. This is one of the most common worries, which shows that it is very natural for a brain that is trying to keep you safe and wants you to be super active in finding the solution to DO something. Thinking something is wrong, that we have a problem with our brain, our sleep switch, that we have forgotten how to sleep.. these thoughts are just signs that we are going through normal and ordinary insomnia and we have a normally functioning brain. “I don’t know what to do” is also very insightful, because there’s nothing we can do. And when we no longer try… sleep happens by itself.. You’ll see Abigail, you’re on the path!
Anytime! I think as always when we try to achieve something like becoming less attached, then it’s tricky. And when we look to mindfulness to achieve something.. then it becomes an effort… So to me, what helps is to practice awareness without any other intent than to study yourself and the world.. be present and experience what happens inside or outside without any goal expect to be present… then things sort themselves out!
Hang in there Rochelle, it can seem hopeless, but you know when you understand what’s happening… this leads to less fear, and when you’re less scared things get easier and easier… you’ll arrive where you want to be
No sleep anxiety last night. First time in 6 years! Was it the Keppra I took for migraines or CBTi? Daniel, what does the literature say about anti seizure medications and sleep anxiety?
Hi! Oh you know, to me this is very straightforward. Thoughts cannot be manipulated, they are just sentences in our brains, they just happen.. and thoughts produce emotions. When we are anxious is due to a certain thought or thoughts… and when we aren’t anxious it is due to the absence of such thoughts. But we cannot control thoughts! So when we are less anxious, to keep it comes from understanding that there’s no danger of being awake, there’s nothing threatening us… and this cannot be packaged into a pill or a teaching even, it comes from someone being willing to look within and find some courage, well done 👍👍!!
Hi Daniel hope you are in good health. I saw your lecture about wakefulness. Like when we go to bed, at night or afternoon, we are bit tired and our eyes close a bit but then the fear( what if i dont sleep) comes in and it puts the brake. At that point point I dont even feel coming out of bed or read something due to fatigue. Chronic insomnia in my case. I feel like just lying on bed. What exactly my mind set is so that sleep comes natural. Currently I am in s situation lying on bed awake but eyes close, uncertain of the future wether I will get sleep or not. Please suggest.
Looks like my mind is enjoying seeing me in trouble and it is finding ways to not let me sleep. Earlier I used to go for sleep and sleep happens, the moment I try to think about it , its vanished. I know it has to do something with my brain and beleifs, but where exactly wrong I am going?
I cant even say that I dont hav a sleep drive. My sleep drive is at its peak but my thoughts, fear and beleifs are putting brakes. Please help me to cure this mind misunderstandings.
Hi Manpreet, You know the understanding you have that there’s no problem with sleep drive, that insomnia is a type of fear… this is the “cure”. When there’s no more mystery, then the brain naturally stops problem solving… and things become more peaceful. What maintains the struggle is problem solving. When you’re wondering what you’re doing wrong, that’s problem solving. When you analyze how you feel or what happened any given night, this is problem solving. Now another aspect is kindness. When you feel like just lying in bed, that’s fine! It’s when we criticize ourselves for lying in bed or feeling discouraged or tired that there can be some trouble. So we can meet problem solving with awareness, and discomfort with kindness, and then things become easier.
So you mean my brain is totally ok? But I do try to let go and it still just keeps awake. Like it is not even troubling me but also no even sleeping. What should i do? I am kind to myself I dont criticize but I got tired when no sleep and that gives depression
Hi Manpreet, Nothing here is medical advice (!) but I will definitely share the experiences you share here and thoughts are typical for a normal brain trying to get rid of a perceived threat, a “fake” threat if you will. Now here are two things that came to mind as I was reading this. Firstly, a certain word can teach us much. The word “still” is special because in itself, it teaches us so much that is very helpful. When we use “still” we are waiting for something to happen as a result of something we have done or something we are doing. It can be “I’m still waking up every hour even when I’m befriending wakefulness” or “I still feel anxious even if I acknowledge my emotions”. It shows us that we have some effort, some trying, some attempt at having control… which is always what leads to some trouble when it comes to sleep and our inner landscape! Now when you know this, you can take advantage by pausing when you notice yourself using the word “still”. You can take note of what it is you’re trying to change and by what means. And this is all. Awareness in itself is all needed. Objective awareness without self criticism. “Aha, I see what my brain is up to!”. And when you simply become aware, the effort fades by itself. Secondly, it can really help to look at why we feel discouraged or depressed. In this case, the brain is actually onto something very true and helpful… When we feel discouraged, it is a signal from the brain that what we are doing isn’t working. It is similar to frustration but almost like a step further. When we are frustrated we are still sort of eager to try more, but when we are discouraged or disheartened we almost feel like giving up. And this is very important because in this case, the message you were getting from the brain is actually a very sound one. When we try and try and try and try and we still don’t see what we want to see, that probably means we should stop trying. This is the message from the brain when we feel discouraged or disheartened. So what is it that we have tried to do? It is controlling sleep or controlling our thoughts or emotions. Maybe you have wondered why you are still feeling anxious, maybe you have wondered why you’re still not having stable and predictable sleep. This is evidence that you have been trying to control things that become more slippery the more we try to control them. And when you feel discouraged, this is the brain signaling that it wants you to abandon what you’ve been trying. Most of the time when we have trouble sleeping, it is because the brain thinks it is dangerous to be awake and we have to educate it because it’s confused! But in this case, the brain is very wise and it is onto something very very helpful and important. Feeling discouraged and disheartened is a signal that it’s time to let go of the attempts at control that have been there. This is the way I see things, seeing this I think is the way to peace…
Hi Daniel, sometimes I get hypnic jerks even when I don't feel sleeping pressure at all......... Like when I want to take a nap for 20min....Is this because my brain is programmed like that? Thank you!!!! Filip
Hi Flip! This jerks happen to everyone, even for naps! It’s just a normal “turbulence” that happens when we transition from wake to sleep. Now the brain can be programmed to look out for jerks and interpret them as unwanted or unusual, but it of course can be reprogrammed to think of them as normal 😊
Hi coach daniel I have few doubts.. 1. Like you told that we need to listen to our mind so that it should not bombard with new thoughts. Even if it does keep listening(fair enough). But our mind is saying "hey ,, yo are not sleeping,, you need to sleep, your health will damage"... so being wake or wakefulness wont be in contradiction to what our mind is saying? Dont you think mind will backfire if we dont listen? 2. Even if we make wakefulness our friend which I dont know how since reading a book at 2: AM straight will make me more nervous because we are not used to it. Earlier we use to sleep well. So do you mean wakefulness will ultimately lead to sleep? 3. Like I meet almost 100 people daily and I not even a single person suffering from it. Does that mean we are mentally sick? Why this thought came in our mind... do we have a destructive mind who thought this thing while 90% dont even think about it? 4. In one of your lectures, you told we need to delegate sleep, but earlier we never used to even think about delegation, we were so confident that we never thought about it and were sleeping perfectly. Dont you think it is responsibility of our mind and body to take care of sleep? Then why our brain is confused with the error safety signal, dont you think it should take care automatically? 5. You told dont look for outcome, enjoy wakefulness and sleep will happen... does this really happen and do you have clients who ultimately healed with wakefulness? Thanks coach, I am sorry I asked too much. Feel free to reply whenever you have time.
Hi Richa! That’s are really great questions, and I’d love to answer. If you could either post them one at a time here in the comments or send them all at once to open class that will be perfect 👍 www.thesleepcoachschool.com/have-questions
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 I just wanted to say thank you for helping me so much on the BedTyme app. I feel like I am really at a good place now and I wanted to express my appreciation :)
Hi Dingding, Check out episode 346, I think it can help much! And also, I get this question a lot about how you can stop caring so much. It can be confusing because people who sleep well after having had insomnia often say that it happened because they “stopped caring” so much. Reality is that they still care! All human beings say they want to sleep well if you ask them. When people say that they “stopped caring”, they actually just mean that they became less attached. Instead of craving for sleep, begging for it, hoping to get it, negotiating for it, they became just a bit more ok with being awake. When they started to think in terms of “I want to sleep well, but if I don’t sleep that much tonight, that’s ok”. When you know this, then “stop caring” doesn’t sound as impossible. It’s nothing of the sort! It is just little steps toward okness with being awake a bit more than you would like. That’s all!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 This is really that-extra-bit-helpful explanation of 'not caring' Daniel -thank you. I think a lot of us think it literally means not caring that we sleep at least reasonably well & feel ok in our lives -which can seem an impossible ask. When I have my good experiences from changing my relationship to the fear this is exactly how I feel: a releasing of fear, which naturally brings with it a sense of acceptance but more importantly a renewed sense of ownership & confidence about myself & my life. With this good empowered feeling comes lessening of the attachment to 'will I sleep?'... and is naturally replaced by a...'whatever, I'll be ok and it'll work its way through' -because I don't care -because I've claimed back my me-state from fear, as my main place of dwelling. I also notice the physical feelings of sleep deprivation lessen. It's as if all the cells are going forward again. There was nothing to worry about after all & we can now relax & recover. The tricky bit for me now is not later in the day obsessing about 'holding on to this realization/feeling' or 'how I managed to do that exactly and how to do it again exactly'. This completely defeats the point and undoes the good work. (work not ideal word of course). Hardest of all is if insomnia has kicked in and I feel quickly in the midst of it...then I'm grappling for your message but it doesn't feel so real or that I can grasp it, or almost that I am not worthy to grasp it.This condition certainly brings up all our deepest damaging self-beliefs :-/ I don't expect you to reply Daniel as I know you are busier than ever, just some thoughts and hope they are helpful to someone because when we decide to live anyway -maybe not literally going to work there & then if you feel REALLY appalling -but a general decision to press forward without fear whilst realistically knowing it'll be back to 'test us' here & there, you become less attached, more the 'friend to wakefulness' as a bi-product of this and the more you can do this the more it becomes our default setting in the bigger picture, down the line 🌤
Dear Andreas and Daniel, underneath I have a question.
Thank you Andreas and Daniel, for this wonderful conversation. It so great to see how the thought patterns, behavior etc. during insomnia are linked to the anxiety disorders that Andreas mentioned. This was exactly what I was looking for, to break free from the narrative you fear makes. I can now accept that it's very logical my brain/body/fear made this narrative due to bad experiences in the past. I am grateful they protected me. But right now they try to protect me from something that simply isn't there anymore. After years of searching, trying, making efforts, I realize that I tried to protect myself from a bear that's not there! I mostly learned to research my fear, understand whether its logical I have it or not. Try to rationalize it. And once I found the right belief/rationale/understanding I can come back to that everytime my brain signals anxiety. with selfcompassion, effortlessness and self love.
Question
Currently I am struggling very much with the opposite of insomnia/wakefulness. I struggle with being afraid of being tired. This is due to a burn out I have. I am afraid that an activity might make me tired and hence cause me to burn out again. I am searching for evidence that my body can heal from this burn out, although I am tired. Just like you mention that the body is able to sleep. Any suggestions/ideas on this one?
Actually, like Andreas, I had panic attacks for a bit, long before insomnia, and the only way I got over them was do something called "the floating technique" (invented by Claire Weekes, who was a forerunner to acceptance-based therapy) where you literally just let yourself have them while not doing anything to resist them (hence floating). After the second time of doing it, I've never had a panic attack ever again. But that's not the point. The point is that panic attacks, when you're having them, will actually have a shorter shelf-life when you're no longer interpreting all the physical symptoms as a direct threat to your life (all of which are caused by adrenaline and other hormones). My average panic attack would last for HOURS. Once I applied the technique, it lasted all of 5 minutes. Having said that. I've not been able to transpose this nifty technique to the panic of insomnia. It's bizarre: if I had a panic attack right now, I'd laugh in it's stupid face. But if I begin to think about not sleeping, fear bests be every time.
Wow thanks so much for sharing this Stephen.. this will surely help so many with panic attacks who read this.
And you know, just putting panic attacks in the same category as insomnia, seeing that they both could be met the same way… I think this is a step towards doing just that..
I can relate. I don't know how to not be afraid of not sleeping. But I am watching these videos hoping to learn
@rach927 it’s courageous to be here an learn, and this will lead to where you want to be 🙂
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thanks for your encouragement
I have been thinking about the Ekhart Tolle type ancient-wisdom teaching in relation to Daniel's lately so it's great to hear them discussed here. I think and feel they are the same. Same message. Daniel's is for us on the scientific/medical level and Tolle's on the spiritual. But they are running parallel. Both are important aspects of the same thing and both meet in the realm of the psychological. Daniel explains brain is trying to help us (but making it worse), Tolle says mind/ego is trying to distract us from our true power -the observer self. Can seem contradictory but same thing working on different levels of being. I find both really helpful but did feel stressed about which to 'choose' for the sleep problem, till I realised it's the same thing just from different perspectives :). Really love these two videos by the way, thank you both -absolutely brilliant :)
😊
Re: observation. The only thing I would add is advice to not do the opposite---which is to evaluate. There's a book called Nonviolent Communication that argues 'evaluation' leads to defensiveness and thus resistance.
Resistance, this is really what leads to struggle isn’t it.. and so helpful to see that when we go the other way, which I’m sure this comment can help with, there’s less struggle!
Hi Sleep coach, hi Andreas - I have a fundamental question. Your whole approach, Daniel, is based on the fact that wakefulness is a perceived thread. You often speak of insomnia as a "fear of a grizzly bear", while in reality, there is none. BUT - and this is my point - when I hear Andreas talk about his insomnia (fear) and experience, than his life was really miserable, the experience must be hellish. Isn't such an experience a "real grizzly bear"??? Isn't it a real threat?? Isn't it more than normal to be scared of getting to such a point although this fear may become almost self-fulfilling??
Hi Peter!
Thanks so much for this question, the question shows that you have a really learned a lot that I think will be really helpful. I’m assuming that you had some trouble sleeping but either way, it can help and many other areas of life so again really glad to read this :-)
The way I would answer this is to say that the battle scars are real but that doesn’t mean that there was an enemy. It just shows that there was a battle.
In other words, the suffering that Andreas one through is very real. The anxiety and the sadness and the pondering and all that was very very real. But this doesn’t mean that there was a real threat.
Buy real threat I mean something that can actually cause your physical harm.
And the reason this is important is that all the suffering comes from the idea that you are in real danger of physical harm.
You can say that the emotional scars are real, but there’s was no real adversary or enemy. The scars come from the struggle to stay safe from something that didn’t exist.
Another way to put it is that “there is no grizzly bear only grizzly fear”.
And absolutely it’s normal to be scared of having all the suffering Andreas went through, and it’s true that fear of fear can produce suffering. And I think the way to meet this is the same…. Seeing that fear is uncomfortable but it cannot harm you…
Did this make sense Peter?
I have a question for Andreas. Did you ever find it helpful to kind of “remind yourself” of your old self? Like while in the struggle, you would view yourself as your old self before insomnia but simply with this layer of immense pain and fear?
This is something I find I do a lot and it grounds me and takes me back to reality which is that I’m still the same person as I was before insomnia but just with this layer of deep pain and struggle.
Also I love that you said don’t trust your personal narrative because that’s something I find I do so much. I create this narrative and then I just fall so deeply into it. Just like with this creation of insomnia. It’s like I create a conspiracy theory about something but I start to believe it 100%. Anyway I share a lot of similarities with your story (ocd, insomnia) and I feel Iike we have similar minds even though I’m a 22 yr old girl from Florida!
Hi Ellie😀 that sounds like a good way of coming out of your mind created narrative. In my thinking I would like to take that even further and work on coming out of you mindmade life story narrative alltogether. Because otherwise you will still compare your different parts of your life and it will be more difficult to let go of your situation now, which is in fact allready the past😉 I hope I dont get too confusing here.. I can really recommend watching some of Eckart Tolles speech here on youtube. I wish you all the best in your journey. All the best😀
@@andreasLindelof thank you for responding Andreas! That’s actually something I’ve thought about a few times but I wouldn’t know how to go about it. Because reminding my current self of my past self brings me great comfort and makes me feel less like a stranger from my “former” self. Like she’s still in there, it’s just my quality of life feels different. I think something I do often is dissociate from myself and run on auto-pilot because the pain of not being able to willfully sleep is so strong and difficult so when I’m usually always like this, I need to ground myself by reminding myself that I wasn’t always like this, or else I just won’t be actually living a life. Does this make any sense? Did you ever dissociate?
Hi, great episode. I’ve been suffering from extremely acute anxiety every day for a while. I don’t know if it’s related to sleep but it’s just really uncomfortable. The more I welcome it the more powerful it becomes. I don’t know if I need serious mental health intervention or if this is manageable and will pass.
Hi Jake,
So glad you tuned in.. I think there’s so much to learn from these two episodes with Andreas.. and you know, often it seems like it’s really important that we make the right decision, when there’s really believing theres something we can do and pondering what to do that is the struggle we are in.. and when we leave the struggle we have peace.. hang in there
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thanks I’m doing better. I take mitrazapine as medication for depression and anxiety, which has sleep inducing properties. Is this a sleep crutch? I take it and it makes me sleep well, I don’t take it because it makes me sleep well. Thanks for answering.
Hi Jake, glad to hear this. And I have some teaching that I think really clarifies if something is an effort or not, let’s take a look.
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The way to know if you had intent to make sleep happen or not you can tell basically by how you feel thinking about it beforehand or how you thought of it afterwards.
If you think of something you would like to do for example listening to a podcast at night and that gives you a little bit of anxiety feeling, there’s probably intent. Because you have a hope that it will make you sleep and also a fear of “what if it doesn’t work”.
If you think of something you would like to do for example again listening to a podcast and you feel a sense of relief, then there’s probably no intent. Because you’re stepping away from trying which is liberating.
Another good way is to ask yourself how do you think of it afterwards. If you think “that didn’t work” or “I didn’t sleep despite” or “I did this but I still didn’t sleep” - then you also know there was intent.
If you on the other hand don’t make any connections between what you did and how you slept, there was no intent!
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Hope this helps Jake!
@@TrevorStoneaker how are you now ? I think i am in same spot
@@mriko3970 I’ve been doing well for months. I’ve stopped taking all medication and just focus on what I’ve learned from this channel. Still have difficult nights but I’m learning to cope with them.
Hi Daniel! Big fan of your channel. I have had insomnia for a bit more than a month now, and currently working with a CBT-i coach. There have been some improvements in my sleep, but not much improvement in my thoughts around sleep. I still worry a lot. In your personal experience, do people having insomnia for only a short period of time see quicker success with CBT-i and restoring sleep confidence? I am still being patient and willing to stick to it.
Hi Risheet and thanks so much for the support 😊
You know, as you may have seen from my content, I’m quite skeptical of CBTi. Or rather I think if it as a gamble. Some get really lucky and their belief in the process or therapist translates into thinking “great there’s nothing wrong with me, and I don’t need to anything to sleep well”. But many end up either in a “truce” where things get a little better but they still think they have to use “techniques” to keep the threat of insomnia at bay… there’s still a belief that they’re different and need to do things to not have trouble… and often this ends up actually leading to more struggle again. Because when the “techniques stop working” the fear is strong. For some there’s just not even any relief, Cbti leads to even more attention towards sleep and more trouble.
All this to say it’s super nice that you’ve seen things gotten a bit easier, and it’s so helpful to see that this is from understanding and becoming less afraid… not building a strong sleep drive, sleep drive isn’t the problem! And if you’re learning and overall feel you’re on a nice trajectory, this is super! But know that many continue to have some struggle after a cbti course, this is very normal and common. Doesn’t say anything about you!
Now my experience has been that there’s no way to predict at all. You can have a client who struggled for years and they do well in a few months or a client who had trouble for a month and it takes several months… or vice versa!
One thing that I think always is true however is that forecasting in itself is problematic..
We should talk a bit more about this but first a few words on confidence.
If you think about somebody who sleeps really well, you can imagine asking them how confident they are in their ability to sleep. They would kinda shrug and not know what to say! Because sleep to them isn’t something they have to make happen, it happens by itself!
In other words, they have no sleep confidence in a sense that they have no confidence in any ability to produce sleep.
They don’t even have confidence in that there’s nothing wrong with them.
So here’s the thing - you don’t need any confidence at all to sleep well.
And this is so important because trying to build confidence or make yourself confident causes so much unnecessary struggle!
You can sleep well and have peace of mind without any belief, hope, confidence or conviction that this is possible! Knowing this can truly lead to a big step away from struggle and to peace.
Ok now back to forecasting!
We humans have become pretty good at predicting the weather, but we still can’t predict the stock market. Why is this?
In both instances we use very very sophisticated tools like data models and super computers.
Here’s the thing, whether you predict that it’s gonna rain or not doesn’t change whether it’s gonna rain or not.
Predicting has absolutely no impact on the weather.
But when people try to predict the stock market something very different happens. When people predict that all the prices are going to go low then people start buying and then they go high.
The same thing happens with sleep.
Predicting how you’re going to sleep causes these sometimes wild and unpredictable effects.
If you predict that you’re going to sleep well then they can either make you calm so that it does happen, OR it makes you pay more attention to sleep and then you sleep less!
If you predict that you won’t sleep that can make you frustrated so that you sleep little, OR you feel less pressured to sleep and sleep more.
As you can see, forecasting sleep creates a very unpredictable pattern so hard as it is, the best to do is trying not to predict.
Because when you’re not trying predict, then sleep comes easier and becomes (paradoxically!) more predictable.
Risheet, did this make sense?
Hi Daniel, sorry to keep troubling you. I think I asked this question but can’t find it!
I am so desperate for help.I have had three nights now without any sleep.I have been for the last few weeks befriending wakefulness and feel comfortable awake at night, but it doesn’t seem to be making any difference.When I close my eyes there is this heaviness to sleep but I can feel my brain braking and stopping me.I worried I will never be able to sleep again.Will it burn itself out? I don’t know what to do.Many thanks
Hi Abigail, don’t hesitate to ask, thats what this channel is here for!
You know, it really is tricky because the more we crave/desire/hope for sleep… the less we sleep. It’s like selling, we don’t want to buy when the salesperson is desperate, but it’s so hard for her not to be desperate if she hasn’t sold anything in days.. yet, it’s when she goes “I see that my desperation is why this is happening, and as difficult as it is, it’s when I become less attached and accept that I have no control that things will get easier” this is when things start to change…
And you know, befriending wakefulness is really just a nudge towards becoming more ok with not sleeping… when we use befriending wakefulness as a technique or tool to sleep.. well then it just becomes a sleep effort!
Abigail, when we think “what if this never ends” it’s just a sign that we have a normal brain. This is one of the most common worries, which shows that it is very natural for a brain that is trying to keep you safe and wants you to be super active in finding the solution to DO something. Thinking something is wrong, that we have a problem with our brain, our sleep switch, that we have forgotten how to sleep.. these thoughts are just signs that we are going through normal and ordinary insomnia and we have a normally functioning brain.
“I don’t know what to do” is also very insightful, because there’s nothing we can do. And when we no longer try… sleep happens by itself..
You’ll see Abigail, you’re on the path!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you.I just don’t how to become less attached.How do I get to this point? Is mindfulness the way forward?
Anytime! I think as always when we try to achieve something like becoming less attached, then it’s tricky. And when we look to mindfulness to achieve something.. then it becomes an effort…
So to me, what helps is to practice awareness without any other intent than to study yourself and the world.. be present and experience what happens inside or outside without any goal expect to be present… then things sort themselves out!
This is me too. I just can’t sleep even I’m tired for days. I’m so desperate 😭
Hang in there Rochelle, it can seem hopeless, but you know when you understand what’s happening… this leads to less fear, and when you’re less scared things get easier and easier… you’ll arrive where you want to be
No sleep anxiety last night. First time in 6 years! Was it the Keppra I took for migraines or CBTi? Daniel, what does the literature say about anti seizure medications and sleep anxiety?
Hi! Oh you know, to me this is very straightforward. Thoughts cannot be manipulated, they are just sentences in our brains, they just happen.. and thoughts produce emotions. When we are anxious is due to a certain thought or thoughts… and when we aren’t anxious it is due to the absence of such thoughts. But we cannot control thoughts!
So when we are less anxious, to keep it comes from understanding that there’s no danger of being awake, there’s nothing threatening us… and this cannot be packaged into a pill or a teaching even, it comes from someone being willing to look within and find some courage, well done 👍👍!!
Hi Daniel hope you are in good health.
I saw your lecture about wakefulness.
Like when we go to bed, at night or afternoon, we are bit tired and our eyes close a bit but then the fear( what if i dont sleep) comes in and it puts the brake.
At that point point I dont even feel coming out of bed or read something due to fatigue. Chronic insomnia in my case.
I feel like just lying on bed.
What exactly my mind set is so that sleep comes natural.
Currently I am in s situation lying on bed awake but eyes close, uncertain of the future wether I will get sleep or not. Please suggest.
Looks like my mind is enjoying seeing me in trouble and it is finding ways to not let me sleep.
Earlier I used to go for sleep and sleep happens, the moment I try to think about it , its vanished.
I know it has to do something with my brain and beleifs, but where exactly wrong I am going?
I cant even say that I dont hav a sleep drive. My sleep drive is at its peak but my thoughts, fear and beleifs are putting brakes.
Please help me to cure this mind misunderstandings.
Hi Manpreet,
You know the understanding you have that there’s no problem with sleep drive, that insomnia is a type of fear… this is the “cure”.
When there’s no more mystery, then the brain naturally stops problem solving… and things become more peaceful.
What maintains the struggle is problem solving. When you’re wondering what you’re doing wrong, that’s problem solving. When you analyze how you feel or what happened any given night, this is problem solving.
Now another aspect is kindness. When you feel like just lying in bed, that’s fine! It’s when we criticize ourselves for lying in bed or feeling discouraged or tired that there can be some trouble.
So we can meet problem solving with awareness, and discomfort with kindness, and then things become easier.
So you mean my brain is totally ok?
But I do try to let go and it still just keeps awake.
Like it is not even troubling me but also no even sleeping.
What should i do?
I am kind to myself I dont criticize but I got tired when no sleep and that gives depression
Hi Manpreet,
Nothing here is medical advice (!) but I will definitely share the experiences you share here and thoughts are typical for a normal brain trying to get rid of a perceived threat, a “fake” threat if you will.
Now here are two things that came to mind as I was reading this. Firstly, a certain word can teach us much.
The word “still” is special because in itself, it teaches us so much that is very helpful.
When we use “still” we are waiting for something to happen as a result of something we have done or something we are doing. It can be “I’m still waking up every hour even when I’m befriending wakefulness” or “I still feel anxious even if I acknowledge my emotions”.
It shows us that we have some effort, some trying, some attempt at having control… which is always what leads to some trouble when it comes to sleep and our inner landscape!
Now when you know this, you can take advantage by pausing when you notice yourself using the word “still”. You can take note of what it is you’re trying to change and by what means. And this is all.
Awareness in itself is all needed. Objective awareness without self criticism. “Aha, I see what my brain is up to!”. And when you simply become aware, the effort fades by itself.
Secondly, it can really help to look at why we feel discouraged or depressed. In this case, the brain is actually onto something very true and helpful…
When we feel discouraged, it is a signal from the brain that what we are doing isn’t working. It is similar to frustration but almost like a step further. When we are frustrated we are still sort of eager to try more, but when we are discouraged or disheartened we almost feel like giving up.
And this is very important because in this case, the message you were getting from the brain is actually a very sound one.
When we try and try and try and try and we still don’t see what we want to see, that probably means we should stop trying. This is the message from the brain when we feel discouraged or disheartened.
So what is it that we have tried to do?
It is controlling sleep or controlling our thoughts or emotions.
Maybe you have wondered why you are still feeling anxious, maybe you have wondered why you’re still not having stable and predictable sleep. This is evidence that you have been trying to control things that become more slippery the more we try to control them. And when you feel discouraged, this is the brain signaling that it wants you to abandon what you’ve been trying.
Most of the time when we have trouble sleeping, it is because the brain thinks it is dangerous to be awake and we have to educate it because it’s confused!
But in this case, the brain is very wise and it is onto something very very helpful and important. Feeling discouraged and disheartened is a signal that it’s time to let go of the attempts at control that have been there.
This is the way I see things, seeing this I think is the way to peace…
Hi Daniel, sometimes I get hypnic jerks even when I don't feel sleeping pressure at all......... Like when I want to take a nap for 20min....Is this because my brain is programmed like that? Thank you!!!! Filip
Hi Flip!
This jerks happen to everyone, even for naps! It’s just a normal “turbulence” that happens when we transition from wake to sleep. Now the brain can be programmed to look out for jerks and interpret them as unwanted or unusual, but it of course can be reprogrammed to think of them as normal 😊
Thank you Daniel!
Anytime!! Thanks for all the support 😊
Coach daniel im not taking any sleep aid, medication or any supplement that claims 2 make sleep.
Hi there!
I think this definitely can help because there’s less confusion!
Hi coach daniel I have few doubts..
1. Like you told that we need to listen to our mind so that it should not bombard with new thoughts. Even if it does keep listening(fair enough). But our mind is saying "hey ,, yo are not sleeping,, you need to sleep, your health will damage"... so being wake or wakefulness wont be in contradiction to what our mind is saying? Dont you think mind will backfire if we dont listen?
2. Even if we make wakefulness our friend which I dont know how since reading a book at 2: AM straight will make me more nervous because we are not used to it. Earlier we use to sleep well. So do you mean wakefulness will ultimately lead to sleep?
3. Like I meet almost 100 people daily and I not even a single person suffering from it. Does that mean we are mentally sick? Why this thought came in our mind... do we have a destructive mind who thought this thing while 90% dont even think about it?
4. In one of your lectures, you told we need to delegate sleep, but earlier we never used to even think about delegation, we were so confident that we never thought about it and were sleeping perfectly. Dont you think it is responsibility of our mind and body to take care of sleep? Then why our brain is confused with the error safety signal, dont you think it should take care automatically?
5. You told dont look for outcome, enjoy wakefulness and sleep will happen... does this really happen and do you have clients who ultimately healed with wakefulness?
Thanks coach, I am sorry I asked too much. Feel free to reply whenever you have time.
Hi Richa!
That’s are really great questions, and I’d love to answer. If you could either post them one at a time here in the comments or send them all at once to open class that will be perfect 👍
www.thesleepcoachschool.com/have-questions
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 posted in open class. Thanks coach.
Perfect will reply next week or the following at the very latest!!
Which course is Andreas referring to? Thanks
Hi Ismael, he was part of the Insomnia immunity program that we have here at the school. I think that’s the one!
Is there a way I can get in contact with him?
Hi! He checks the comments so you can post questions here 👍
Hi Daniel, I was wondering if there is a way I can email you? Thank you! :)
Hi! I don’t do any coaching outside of the programs but you can post any questions here 👍
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 I just wanted to say thank you for helping me so much on the BedTyme app. I feel like I am really at a good place now and I wanted to express my appreciation :)
Oh got it! Sorry I just make that assumption, and it didn’t click that you’re that Stephanie 😊! Here! daniel@thesleepcoachschool.com
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you so much!
It takes time 4 d i dont care method
Because i still care f i sleep or not. Hope that one day i wont care f i sleep or not.
My insomnia started in may 2020 3 nights zero sleep. Last zero sleep 1 night june 2021.
The headaches, lowerback and neck pain, twiching,palpitation. B4 i feel dizzy, chest pain, too much fear, worry,anger, sadness.
Hi Dingding,
Check out episode 346, I think it can help much!
And also, I get this question a lot about how you can stop caring so much. It can be confusing because people who sleep well after having had insomnia often say that it happened because they “stopped caring” so much.
Reality is that they still care!
All human beings say they want to sleep well if you ask them.
When people say that they “stopped caring”, they actually just mean that they became less attached.
Instead of craving for sleep, begging for it, hoping to get it, negotiating for it, they became just a bit more ok with being awake.
When they started to think in terms of “I want to sleep well, but if I don’t sleep that much tonight, that’s ok”.
When you know this, then “stop caring” doesn’t sound as impossible. It’s nothing of the sort! It is just little steps toward okness with being awake a bit more than you would like. That’s all!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 This is really that-extra-bit-helpful explanation of 'not caring' Daniel -thank you. I think a lot of us think it literally means not caring that we sleep at least reasonably well & feel ok in our lives -which can seem an impossible ask.
When I have my good experiences from changing my relationship to the fear this is exactly how I feel: a releasing of fear, which naturally brings with it a sense of acceptance but more importantly a renewed sense of ownership & confidence about myself & my life. With this good empowered feeling comes lessening of the attachment to 'will I sleep?'... and is naturally replaced by a...'whatever, I'll be ok and it'll work its way through' -because I don't care -because I've claimed back my me-state from fear, as my main place of dwelling. I also notice the physical feelings of sleep deprivation lessen. It's as if all the cells are going forward again. There was nothing to worry about after all & we can now relax & recover.
The tricky bit for me now is not later in the day obsessing about 'holding on to this realization/feeling' or 'how I managed to do that exactly and how to do it again exactly'. This completely defeats the point and undoes the good work. (work not ideal word of course). Hardest of all is if insomnia has kicked in and I feel quickly in the midst of it...then I'm grappling for your message but it doesn't feel so real or that I can grasp it, or almost that I am not worthy to grasp it.This condition certainly brings up all our deepest damaging self-beliefs :-/
I don't expect you to reply Daniel as I know you are busier than ever, just some thoughts and hope they are helpful to someone because when we decide to live anyway -maybe not literally going to work there & then if you feel REALLY appalling -but a general decision to press forward without fear whilst realistically knowing it'll be back to 'test us' here & there, you become less attached, more the 'friend to wakefulness' as a bi-product of this and the more you can do this the more it becomes our default setting in the bigger picture, down the line 🌤