rambling abt alt culture & gatekeeping while doing makeup
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- Опубликовано: 31 авг 2020
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Are his earrings made of T bottles? Iconic.
i want them lmao
That's fucking awesome!
I saw that almost immediately.
T bottles? I’m dumb asf sorry
@@hyunjinfairy7472 testosterone bottles. the medication comes in bottles
I just don't care for labels I just dress a certain way, listen to certain music, and have certain political opinions. 🙍
I agree those molds do not compute with reality.
@@PaulA-fp3vs For real!
agreed, it’s kinda annoying how pretty much everything is labeled these days.
That’s the way to go!
I also think being alt but not a part of any specific subculture within that branch is perfectly valid too
Logan G I feel this. I’ve always leaned towards just calling myself alt, because my music taste and styles are so broad. And when it comes to style, I find myself just blending what I like which probably is what causes the subtle confusion in my head of what separates goth and punk particularly. Those two can honestly blend so well
Same like I listen to emo/punk music but I dress like a 2000’s scene kid so I don’t know what I’m doing
Do i have to dress alt to call myself alt?
@@themustardcat6328 well a lot of these subcultures are music based. If u genuinely like a lot of the music then ig you can lol Usually being alt tho is a way of life and self expression
I want to be alt but the problem is I’m a center-left (centrist), and I listen to KPop. Can I still be apart of the community or no?
update: im not a centrist anymore... you can't just pick both. a lot if centrists are closted conservatives..not knowing conservstives are actually using them as bait
I feel like younger people are very focused on fitting into a specific label and forget what subcultures are about because of this. Like I don't even use other labels than alternative and metalhead because I don't even know in what exact label I fall anymore. I used to be very emo when I was younger but I grew up and I don't really fit the label anymore so I stopped using it. I listen to rock, punk, some goth and almost all subgenres of metal. I'm not sure what I should describe my fashion style as because some days I look very punk or goth while other days I look more pastel goth. I like black and creepy stuff but I also like cute and pink stuff, I also love diy-ing fashion and accessories. Younger kids have started describing me as an 'egirl' but I don't really identify with that label because my current style started off as emo and evolved because of all the different kind of alternative things I like. The reason why most of the egirls/eboys we see today look so generic is probably because it seems like it's a trend now to be kinda edgy bc of artists like Billie Eillish but obviously they don't want to be too "edgy" or "weird" because god forbid you do something unique that you didn't see in a tiktok trend
I literally relate to everything u said. I feel like ekids r honestly just rip offs of the things that most ppl like about alt subcultures. It went from ugg boots and star bucks to nose rings and hot topic (not to shit on hot topic, but they do get a lot of egirl types and business is business so they cant be blamed)
omg I also relate to everything you said lmao, but I just go with "alt, with metalhead and emo influences" despite dressing in what would classify as "gothic" and "pastel goth" outfits lmao. But yeah, I think that just using the word "alternative" is a great all encompassing term that's also easy to understand because it isn't too specific but has a certain style that is associated with it
that's so relatable...
I would like to see " I like adventurous things and not just dark or cute things" why is everything in this community dark vs cute? You guys say the same thing 😂 over and over again. Also it isn't age thing I've seen older people try to label everything as "goth" or whatever as well. I personally don't want to be labeled anything especially from this community.
Honestly I just describe myself as “alternative”, because to me all the subcultures are pretty restrictive by their own nature. I’m a socialist, and I like the fucked up aesthetic, but I’m not a punk cuz although I like some bands, it’s not my favorite genre, and it’s not the community I hang with, same with goth, emo, and metal. I borrow style inspirations from everything from punk to e girl to nu metal, and listen to all kinds of music, mostly alt but often mainstream too. And honestly I feel so much more at ease just doing my own thing and listening to whatever I want than when I was trying to join all these subcultures. I understand specific communities like that are good for some people, but honestly I’m kinda glad that it’s kinda dying out among other alt people my age
ExtrEMO I used to be really emo and now I’ve sort of fallen out of that category but still absolutely love alt looks and culture so I just go with alternative and that’s it. My style and self is constantly changing right now but I wouldn’t consider myself sort of mainstream
Me too, i listen to many music types and i think all subcultures are pretty cool,but i don’t think i fit with a specific one
Then why is your name ‘extrEMO’ bruh
what,, what kind of communism
@@Miyoiyoiyo probably Trotskyism. tho I’m still not super familiar with all the different types, Trotskyism sounds the most reasonable and functional to me
I think also in these discussions about gatekeeping it gets completely lost that most of the time gatekeeping is extremely gendered & racialized - a HUGE aspect of most gatekeeping is that it usually involves heavy assumptions about women and/or people of color faking being into a subculture for clout (*cough*women are just in it to attract the men*cough*), and very high standards being placed on how much they have to know to prove they're REALLY into it, standards to which cishet white men are not held because they aren't immediately assumed to be fakers. And the extent to which this is a problem especially IRL is heavily dependent on subculture - I'm not a metalhead myself but know a fair amount of metalheads and almost every instance I've witnessed or heard of which involved IRL gatekeeping has been from metalheads, like you said "alt" covers such a wide variety of cultures, the issues which are most prevalent can really vary between each one.
I made a comment here before I read this one, and YES, it really fucking is like that. I was always way more comfortable around almost any other subculture than metalheads even tho I mostly listen to metal, it's insane. Probably because it's so male dominated subculture. I would never call myself a goth per instance (even tho most people would classify me as one bc of the aesthetic and looks) because I just can't get into goth music that much, it's too mellow for my taste and I need something more agressive - if you have recks I would be happy to give it a chance. The point of the story I guess is that gatekeeping online and irl are two totally different beasts and most people conflate them in conversations.
@Who Cares Let me guess, it's probably about Tool or some other ~respected by men~ band. I hate those types of people so much
Exactly!
You can't present femme and like Metal without some man asking you to prove you're really into the band. And DARE you wear a band t shirt, because you're only wearing it for the aesthetic, obviously, not because you enjoy the music or anything. And I hope you don't like a band casually, because if you don't know the story or the names of the band members or every song they've ever released, you're CLEARLY just a poser. That's it, if they see you as a woman.
Honestly, i hate these standards, a feminine person/a woman can't enjoy shit within the metal community without men gatekeeping it.
@@LiterallyScarecrow I personally did notice a lot of gatekeeping but they way you described it has almost become a stereotype, while that definitely does happen, it's not as prevalent as It may seem. Me as a female (former) Metalhead definitely had the fear of this whole "prove yourself" stuff from men, but It never happened. What definitely happens waaaay more is male Metalheads sexualizing female Metalheads or just instantly seeing them as a potential love interest etc, which is ofc very annoying as well. But the whole having to prove yourself bs happens to an extent in basically every male dominanted space (Metal community, Nerd "culture" for example regarding Comics or video games etc)
A WHOLE NEWS ARTICLE
I used to identify as a metalhead for years and was an active member in my local community, but I don't anymore because of the gatekeeping to an extreme level (shit like you're not a metalhead if you also like some metalcore or deathcore band etc, you can ONLY listen to metal - like the 10 bands they approved of and nothing else), also sexism is rampant there, I always felt like I needed to prove constantly that I'm worthy of being around them even when I know more about some topics than them. I was quizzed almost every time I wore a band shirt (I personally wouldn't ever wear a shirt of a band that I didn't like and don't know their music) etc. So I guess it's different depending on the actual subculture and the geographic region (I am from eastern Europe).
I've always experienced the metal community to be very accepting, with some asshole gatekeepers as an exception. It's really sad to hear your experience. The only problem I face as a female metalhead is metalhead men very often try to flirt as soon as they realize I'm a female metalhead, as if my music taste is the only thing about me that they care about. Anyway, I'll hope you get to meet some better people with similar interests to you in the future
I agree, i identified as a metalhead but i mostly listen to deathcore so i just call myself alt
@@esmeeteeuw1264 Same, im finding this very weird all these comments saying how much shit they are getting. Has the alt scene/mindset changed these days or what ?
@@remi6668 Someone can definitely be considered a Metalhead when they mainly listen to metal but also metal- or deathcore. But If you mainly listen or only listen to *core*, then you're not a Metalhead because it's, as the name says, not metal but core. I know of the similarities, but that's just the definition... I don't know what people who listen to (death or metal) core call themselves tho
@Jelena This type of gatekeeping basically only happens online, so J wouldn't listen to that. Any Metalhead with common sense (which most are) would never actually think that you'd only have to listen to metal, people who say that are elitists and disliked in the community. I'm also female and also -(heavily) identified as a Metalhead, because back then I did only listen to metal, later on I was shortly sort of elitist as well (regarding core) but I realized that that mentality was bs and allowed myself to listen deathcore and mealcore too. Nowadays I don't identify as with the label as much because I don't listen to mainly metal anymore, so It feels wrong for me to claim it. If you still listen to metal, don't listen to the few elitists that are only on the internet and just be a Metalhead honestly
Tbh I think the only posers are people who call themselves goth or punk or scene or emo etc, without researching the subculture at all, like punk for example, you can’t be punk if you don’t agree with the politics and listen to the music of the subculture, because that’s literally the entire point.
I think everyone should be able to dress in any style they want and if they're not interested in other aspects of that style then you don't have to identify as that. You don't have to put yourself in a box
Exactly.
literally. i hate when people say "people only dress alt cause it's a trend" WHO CARES? if they like dressing that way then just let them be. it's not a huge deal and wearing alternative clothing isn't going to affect you.
I think the thing people don't get is that you literally don't need to wear a label. If you don't like goth music, you're not goth, but there's nothing even wrong with that. If you just like the fashion aspects, then just wear them. You don't have to call yourself goth to do so. It's so stupid.
I'm in the lolita community which is definitely more fashion focused, but we still deal with that crap too. When somebody posts their neko meido cosplay and they get told it's not lolita, they cry gatekeeping. Like, I'm all for creativity in fashion and wear whatever tf you like, but don't call it something it's not. Just because something doesn't fit in a particular category doesn't mean it's bad or you can't enjoy it. Just do what you want and don't force a label.
Hello! I don't listen to goth, emo, punk and etc.(i do plan on getting into visual kei tho), but is it really ok to wear the clothes?? I really want to dress like the ghouls on monster high, but i'm not sure what style they have, I assume it's inspired by different alt subcultures ^^
I kinda want a wardrobe full of Monster high inspired outfits, especially Draculaura! And I really don't want to offend anybody
(Sorry if I used any words wrong, english isn't my first language and I've only been researching about this stuff for 2-3 weeks)
@@kaixin9902 hi! so i kinda figured that the op wouldnt really reply (cause you commented 5 months after they posted the comment XD), and so im here to answer for you
i'm an emo girl, and what im gonna say is: of course you can still wear the clothes (why are you even asking, you wear what you wanna wear XP)! also, the idea of dressing like monster high is amazinggggggg
but uhh just an opinion: you should research bands of the genre you want to dress like, because most part of the alternative subcultures involve music (and have music as their core, for example, emo with emocore, goth with...well....goth, punk with punk music, blablabla)
the style monster high has....well..........i'm not certain of it, or rather, i dont think its really EXACT, because it does have some goth and kind of subtle (?) emo elements so yeah.
Here's an idea on how to base your whole wardrobe in monster high clothes: Plaid skirts, shirts and dresses, dark colored ties, boots, dark colored heels, maybe fishnet gloves or, those cute striped gloves? some black scrunchies for your hair maybe? and hair extentions? idk, my guess is that you should get a wardrobe based on the certain monster high ghouls you would like to take inspo on, such as draculaura as you said you want to get a wardrobe basically especially on draculaura
just dont forget you only live once so live your life to your likings ^___^
The ALT Online Community seems to have a very big obsession with labels and getting every label right, and if someone gets it wrong or doesn't care for the labels, they get angry and really hostile for no reason instead of just explaining and what not.
I don't pay attention to the music I listen to, however I know it's what's considered metal, screamo, rock n roll or grunge, Crim3s type music but I don't really acknowledge or care to learn about the bands themselves so I couldn't tell you half of what I listened to.
Tiktok specifically is obsessed with "you can't be alt if you don't know about it!" as if everyone spends every waking moment paying attention and caring about these things. I just think that overall the ALT community online is really aggro young teens who struggle to properly understand and convey their feelings
I saw a comment saying that I’m not allowed to dress alternatively if I don’t fit into the culture. So now I’m just confused on what to wear
Yeah, the alt teens online are a bit much sometimes. Especially about the having to know everything about the bands you listen to. I try to avoid any artists that are actively horrible, but I cant Google search literally every band I listen to for controversies.. that's just so much
@@chaoticsimmer3263 do whatever tf u want
@@wwhuuva I’ll try 😅
@@chaoticsimmer3263 you got this!
Ok I am goth, I love the music, I am grave deep into the politics and ideals, and I love the different styles in clothes. However, I get judged by some of my goth friends because I make indie music...Im excluded from what I identify with because I listen to/and make different music. Thats the toxic gatekeeping I think we should be worrying about c:
Gothic Soulflower (an Elder Goth) said that you only need to listen to one Goth band to be Goth because then you’ll start listening to other bands and expanding from there. You don’t have to limit yourself to one genre of music though. Goths can listen to other music genres and still be Goth (as long as they still also listen to Goth)
@@asddfasdqwe7389 is this a joke or?
i agree, you're allowed to like more than one thing
This... I listen to so many genres. Literally can jump from death metal or punk rock to soft lo-fi music. I feel bad for people who think you can only like one thing.
@@asddfasdqwe7389 no
my friend: i’m alt bc i’m on alt tiktok
me: you literally dress y2k, aka what is currently popular. you aren’t alt and THAT IS OKAY.
honestly like it’s ok not to be « alt » especially cause the idea of alt is watered down to wearing a crop top and baggy jeans. Like alt is the trend now imo so it feels like it’s not even alternative anymore cause it’s becoming the norm.
Would it be considered disrespectful if I just like their fashion but I don't identify as alt? I don't think I identify as alt(wether it's lolita, goth, or any other subcultures of it), but I really like their fashion and I'm eager to change my style of clothing to it. But I don't want to be disrespectful or to be called a poser.
@@arunnalunaru it wouldn't be considered disrespectful, as long as you don't identify with a subculture that doesn't align with your views! The problem comes when people who have non-alternative ideals claim to be alt because they enjoy the fashion sense. You can, of course, enjoy the fashion and dress to fit the aesthetic without having the views, unless, as I said before, you claim to be a part of a subculture that doesn't fit your views. You aren't a poser for dressing in a way that makes you feel comfortable or in a way that you enjoy! I will add that, in the future if you want to "join" a subculture, please make sure to do some research on the subculture and its views before identifying with it. I hope this helps! (If I got anything in this statement wrong, feel free to correct me, or just add your thoughts onto it!) :)
@@hxr_ Ah, I see Isee. Thank you sm for answering, it really helped! Hope you have a good day :D
@@mel_ty9500 Alt isn't the norm you just watch too much tiktok. Go outside.
Im not an e-kid, but I have seen some community in their group. Most e-kids listen to lil peep for example. I do think its alt, just because it doesnt fit the norm, but I do see what youre getting at.
I feel like the e-aesthetic is 99.9% a cop-out for preps who want to be punk or goth but dont want to commit to a music genre or ideology.
Wait what about the ones who actually listen to the music?
@@zvezdavan i honestly dont understand this whole alt or not alt thing. people should be able to just dress how they dress, and listen to whatever the hell they want to listen to. i dress extremely "alt" / "grunge" aesthetic and ill even listen to the typical alt and grunge music, but at times ill go days without listening to it and ill just listen to bubblegum kpop,
@@81boph being alt doesn’t mean only liking alt things lol
@@81boph it doesnt really matter on what you like or "look" alt it's more then that it includes political ideals, style of music and history you also dont have to just listen to alternative music I'm goth/punk that listens to goth/punk but also like you I listen to kpop and likes pastel colors~
@@81boph it's about the subculture, about the music. Not about style. When people are trying to be goth, you first have to know about the music and the culture. Not just kinda dress goth and call yourself goth. It's hella offensive to the people who live as goths.
watching this made me wonder if you could talk about actual gatekeeping a bit more? like how some people are like "this band isn't punk enough". i feel like it'd be an interesting topic.
From what I've seen it's goths mostly who say that the bands aren't really goth, and it's punks who say you're not really punk unless you do x y or z. I'm not entirely sure how to describe it, but it seems like goths seem to discount the bands more while punks seem to discount the individual more. I could be wrong but I've been in both spaces and that's just something I noticed that seemed weird to me.
Like I've seen goths who say "the cure/ joy division/ sisters of mercy aren't really goth", but I haven't really seen the same thing with punks and, say, the ramones.
@@jequirity1 this is why i'm glad to be in the "youth" groups of emos n scenes. music is a part of the subculture, but they dont go around micro labeling every band as this and that. scene kids dont even care abt the music (it's more of a lifestyle group anyways)
Omg yes because I was just reading articles about how "if you listen to bands like these, you aren't punk you're a poseur" and it only pissed me off. Being punk isn't even all about music- it's mainly about the mentality and political views.
In my experience, the whole world of alternative subcultures has been even more restrictive and judgemental than the “normal” culture. I feel so much pressure to fit into a specific subculture but I never really feel like I fit in well enough. I also constantly change in my style and interests
just be yourself! the whole point of being alternative is to not conform to the mainstream. Don't try to label yourself and just wear what you want!
i feel like i see similar issues in the y2k aesthetic community where some people think liking fashion and taking inspiration from an era means acting bigoted like you’re from that era where being problematic for attention was popular.
Dude, idk what you mean by being bigoted for attention was popular?
@@angelacasein7059Google Paris Hilton lol
As an 80s goth it is quite annoying when you're trying to educate someone and they insist they're goth meanwhile they don't enjoy the music or care about the subculture.
I was called a fake alt cuz I take inspiration from East Asian alt fashion and I was told I look "not alt" enough or too "basic". The reason why I took inspiration from East Asian Alt fashion is because I am big into East Asian Culture and my parents are strict about alt fashion. Take Ashton (don't mean to put you on a spot but I think you look badass but my parents would be judgemental about your style) for example, they would freak out if I looked like that so I decide to wear something less dramatic as Ashton's style and then work my way on the style to my liking. I still listen to alt bands but if I feel like not listening to bands such as korn or Sisters of Mercy then I go for Asian music that is considered like pop rock such as Man With a Mission, Babymetal, Dreamcatcher, Diablo, ONE OK ROCK, BTS (their old music gives like the edgy don't care vibes), Day6 and others. Plus alt fashion is diverse and people shouldn't limit themselves or others to a particular style.
I take inspo from japanese alternative styles as well [decora/harajuku punk/etc..]! There is no correct way to be "alternative". Don't listen to assholes who try to invalidate you. Only you know who you are, and as long as you feel that you are an authentic alternative person, what they say does not matter!
I'm sorry, but I cringed so hard when I read that. I feel so sorry for you!
East asia isn't the same as the west, obviously. East asia has it's own subcultures. If I were you I would never call my style alternative, I would instead identify with the east asian subcultures and fashion styles.
This comes from someone who listens to visual kei music and dress up in that style. I call my style visual or V-kei. I wouldn't ever call my style alternative because to me alternative is often times so tacky and cheap looking(no offense, but that is what I think about this "alt-style")
You can call yourself visual too, it is a broad term and you don't have to look crazy to call yourself visual. Just be visual enough to be different from regular people. Also the music is anything from rock to pop, to death metal, to nu metal, melodic metal etc.
Go ahead and listen to a visual kei band and become a member of this movement, you are very welcome here and also you will never be called "fake alt" or a poser either, because you will be different.
you dont have to look punk to be punk. all you have to do is like & listen to punk music and align with punk ideals.
the "if youve never made a zine" made me choke
hey can u do a video on goth/punk music coz im not sure what my music is clasifyed as. could u also mabye do one explaining the different alt cultures ?
If you're trying to identify genres I would recommend everynoise.com. Search an artist and it will tell you genres they fit under. If you click on a genre it will give you other artists in that genre, which is why i like using it to find new music.
If you want music, some good goth bands to start with would be Joy Division, Bauhaus, and the Sisters of Mercy. As for punk, the Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, and Bad Religion are good starter bands (and the Suicidal Tendencies, but they’re just as metal as they are punk)
Punks are angry about the corrupt system and want equality through lack of hierarchy. They are focused on social issues that affect the world. Goth is like punk but sad instead of angry and includes a spiritual element, rather than being strictly secular like punk. Punk bands I enjoy include Crass, Dead Kennedys, Oi Polloi, The Oppressed, and Aus-Rotten. Goth bands that I recommend are Witching Hour, Children On Stun, The Wake, Rosetta Stone, The Mission, The Merry Thoughts, Red Lordy Yellow Lorry, and Burning Gates.
I know it’s months later but the r/goth subreddit is a good place to ask for bands ! The discord is very welcoming as well! :) It has a tons of links to explore the music!
@@miriamreinhardt8939 goth isnt about sadness it’s just about post punk music, which can be sad, but i’ve heard happy or angry goth songs as well
I love how Ashton and I are always on the same wavelength. From the T bottle earrings to the alt community discourse.
I can't stand seeing people get called a gatekeeper because they say "you can't be a punk nazi" 😂 like it just doesn't make sense
Honestly I feel like some gates NEED to be kept in order to preserve the meaning of countercultures. This especially happened with grunge. Grunge used to be an amalgamation of heavy metal, punk rock, and alternative music. It had an aesthetic that was easily accessible to working class people, and there was so much variety in sound among grunge bands. There was genuinely something for everyone who wanted to be a part of a counterculture that rejected consumerism, misogyny, authoritarianism, and the vilification of addicts and other vulnerable communities.
NOWADAYS, the term grunge has been almost completely overtaken by modern indie, pastel, depressioncore aesthetics and it’s so difficult to find communities of people who love ACTUAL grunge music, and share the values that come with the music and the era. It’s been pastel-ified and forced to appeal to the general consumers, and now companies get to profit off of insincere and inadequate contributions to a subculture that would scoff at flimsy pastel flannels selling for $40 🙃.
So yeah if telling e-boys and e-girls that Lil Peep and Billie Eilish aren’t grunge, and that they shouldn’t adopt claim to that term, is gatekeeping...I’m a proud gatekeeper.
Well said. Also thats news to me Billie Ellish is "grunge" wooooooooooooooooot ?!
@@AstartesPanda ikr- i havent heard anyone call billie grunge, does that happen?
@@AstartesPanda some of those kids even consider themselves goth for listening to billie eilish lol
I was just thinking about this topic! It bothers me that a lot of younger people who are just discovering this stuff are so eager to try and force themselves (and sometimes others) to fit a very specific label. That's... definitely not what countercultures are about. I think a lot of people, at least recently, become interested because of the aesthetics and then don't do any further research into what it's actually about. That might also be why I see so many people saying "alt" as if that refers to a specific group or idea. It's cool that there's interest, I just wish people were digging a little deeper!
The sunlight in your hair makes you look so ethereal 😍
I really love the fashion that comes with alt subcultures, and I mean *all* of it, but I see so much saying you can't dress like a certain subculture if you're not part of it and you can't be part of say, the punk scene if you don't like punk music. I don't particularly like punk music or a lot of music that's associated with the common alt subcultures so I just feel like I wouldn't fit in regardless of what I did.
I just want to wear clothes I like and I know that this is probably irrational but I feel like I'd get shunned whatever I did. Guess I'll stick to a t-shirt and jeans for now,,,
Edit: There's also the whole stigma I feel like I would get from "normal" people in my area. I already get that by being LGBT+ so I really don't know if I have the guts to take on more.
That's okay! You just have to realize that if you like wearing goth inspired clothes for example, you wouldn't be considered goth, but "darkly inclined". You could also say "i dont like punk music, but i like punk style and punk politics".
In my opinion, you can like what you like as long as you dont claim to belong to a specific subculture that you dont belong to, like ashton explained in his video.
Also, chances are that by dressing that way you'll maybe start to like the music more (i know it sounds weird but thats kinda how i got from being into metal to being into punk music lol).
So yeah, just do what you want to do as long as you dont claim to be part of a group you arent part of.
@@julezirgendwas6865 Ironically enough I've actually grown to really like a lot of punk-ish music in the time between that comment and now, just like you said!
Thanks for the affirming words though, I've read a lot more into a bunch of subcultures and become a lot more comfy in my little spot I've made myself :>
@@julezirgendwas6865 Finally a rational comment from someone who knows what they're talking about
A thing I have seen happen (in the goth subculture specifically) is people having differently strict definitions on what qualifies as goth music. Like is industrial goth? Is EBM goth? Are some parts of Darkwave goth? These seem to be things people online disagree on. And I've definitely seen people online quizzing people on goth music to make sure they're "goth enough" to enter their discord server for example. That is gatekeeping. They don't just ask people if they listen to goth music, they're asking people for a specific list of bands they like and if those bands are perceived as too mainstream they start quizzing those people on goth music related knowledge. Made me leave pretty quickly.
Also I'm so sick of this discussion dominating online goth spaces. r/goth has gotten so fucking toxic cause all they talk about is what and who qualifies as goth and who doesn't, it's getting on my nerves. I've never seen that sort of thing in industrial subculture for example, which I'm also a part of. Yes, people in industrial subculture understand that it's a music-based subculture and stuff, but they don't feel the need to talk about it all the fucking time! I mean come on people, if r/industrialmusic can be like that then r/goth can too.
I'm not really active on reddit so I can't comment on the toxicity that's on there. But, why is it wrong when people say that industrial isn't goth? Why do people consider it to be goth music in the first place, when it predates goth and even has different origins? I mean, I get that a lot of goth like it, but thats also the case with metal and people dont see metal as goth music. No hate btw, this is a genuine question
@@littlerivet7678 I actually agree that industrial isn't goth. This was just listing a bunch of these discussions. Not implying which side I agree or disagree with for any of them.
This is probably already in the video but just a quick reminder that there's nothing wrong with dressing "alternative" and not being in a subculture and also that actual alternative people telling them their subculture is more than just fashion is not gatekeeping :)
So I'm a little older than you but I recently had a conversation with my husband about stuff like this. Back when I was in high school (about 15 yrs ago), subcultures like punk, goth, etc., were never "popular" and you would never see a person in those groups in the "popular" crowd. Now, though, components of the aesthetics of different subcultures have become popular in mainstream fashion (I believe partially thru TikTok) and now you see a lot of people dressing with "Alt"-inspired style but not following the other tenets of the subculture, for example punk, like the politics or the music. Like, I used to be able to approach a person dressed as a punk and be pretty certain of their politics and be comfortable around them, but now I can't be certain. Now that there is some mainstream commodification of that, you can't be sure. So in some way, I think there needs to be "gatekeeping" of subcultures because you have watering down and bastardization of the culture of those scenes to the point where the communities no longer have the meanings they once did.
well said!!!!
very true, though idk to what extent that gatekeeping may really be effective - once again capitalism and its tendancies to transform everything into something to sell
i personally feel like ekids' fashion is too clean-looking to appeal to me. it's reminiscent of early 2000's disney films trying to portray alt people.
and i agree with the points you made in this video. it's called a sub/counter culture for a reason- there's culture. which includes the genre of music.
I don’t know a lot about the history of punk/goth culture, but I would be interested to hear your takes on the erasure of blackness within those cultures. The film A Band Called Death delves into how punk evolved and was created by 3 black men but from an outsider’s perspective, punk seems very centered on whiteness. Obviously you aren’t black but you have such well thought on discussions about these topics on your channel so I would be interested in hearing your takes on the matter.
I think a lot of the issue here comes down to how folks chose to participate in their chosen sub-group. I for example am very into the fashion side of things so when I hear folks say "you gotta like goth music to be goth" I'm left lost on what constitutes "like". for example would I turn off goth music if it was playing? no I like it, but do I know the names of any goth bands or seek the music out to any degree? no not particularly, most of my go to music is not goth. so now I'm left in a place were if I use the label goth I may get criticized for misusing it cus i'm not sufficiently "into" the music despite the fact that I chose to participate via fashion more then music. if goth (or other subcultures) want to be JUST music subcultures then that's fine but I and others like me who are more into the fashion or politics side of a subgroup then need our own label.
this is also made more complicated by the existence of non-alternative folks needing/wanting to label my "alternative-ness" but not having much knowledge on labels, so I will be called goth and punk just due to appearances no-matter what I call myself. I would compare this issue to the issue LGBT folks face, I may use the labels omnisexual and a demiboy as much as I want but randos will just call me gay when they see two masculine presenting humans together (or straight if one of us presents/is fem).
also when I explain my "alternative-ness" to a stranger I can't just jump in with whatever detailed micro-label the community comes up with for folks like me, just as I can't open with "i'm a omnisexual demiboy" to a uneducated stranger as they would have no context on the meaning of those words. IRL I normally have to simplify my labels to facilitate understanding then add detail later, say start with BI then work to omni, so even with a alternative culture micro-label I am once again forced to use goth or punk as a jumping off point to describe myself raising the question, "why can't I use those labels as umbrella terms, like BI is for MSPEC folk?"
I hope this helps explain the difficulty I (and I assume others like me) have with the current system of alternative culture labels and hope we (as a group) can figure something out that works.
Goth music is the backbone of the goth subculture. You can't really take that away. Keep in mind that there are multiple genres that can be considered goth music and they're all pretty different. Some examples would be coldwave, post-punk, industrial, EBM, synthpop, new romantic, and deathrock. Just because you don't like siouxsie, bauhaus, and joy division doesn't necessarily mean you don't like any goth music. The term for only being into the fashion or dark media would be "darkly-inclined". That doesn't mean you have no place in alternative subcultures though, we really don't need to be so fixated on finding a specific label to fit in to.
Fashion or clothes don't make you part of a subculture at all, sorry. It's like the least important aspect of subcultures, even to such an extent that you actually don't have to "look" goth or punk to be It. Music, sometimes politics (depends on what subculture), other ideologies, love for certain medias or typical hobbies are waaaaaaaaay more important.
Look up visual kei, that is a fashionbased movement/subculture. The music can be anything from pop to punk to metal to electronic. The fashion styles within that movement is crazy, it looks like stereotypical goth sometimes, sometimes stereotypical punk, sometimes anime character and sometimes even almost "normal" but more fashionable.
If you just find one band you like, or an artist(may it be either the music or the looks) you are able to call yourself visual or V-kei!
Don't call yourself goth if you don't actually listen to it, or punk if you don't listen to that either.
I think Goth is more than just music. It's my appreciation for that which is considered weird, sad, and/or creepy. It's the way I dress and accessorize, some of which is DIY. It's the media that I consume. It's the vocabulary I use. It's the home decor, and Goth dolls that I've made. I think that to be Goth without those other things is in a way lacking an important part of the subculture. And I dare anyone to try and keep me out just because I can't name an Alien Sex Fiend album.
i love how calm ur videos are
i love watching your videos while i draw. your voice helps me concentrate and i’m also being educated!
I sometimes think that the Internet was a blessing for the mainstream and a curse for countercultures... 🤔 This strange atmosphere online didn't exist before the social media specifically. I was your age in the 90's, we didn't have these problems. Glad you mentioned Alien Sex Fiend, it already was old 30 years ago but cool music never ages 🤩. Ignore the machine! 👩🏾🎤
I agree. While the internet gave us access to new stuff (which is great) it also started this toxic obsession with labels! I wish I could just take a plane full of darklings under the age of 21 to Mera Luna or Wave Gotik Treffen and have them experience what it means to be apart of a counter culture first hand. Things are much more organic (and a lot more fun) in real life and I just wish there were more events for those under 21. The internet is great but it's created a kind of "Goth Culture" of it's own that gives off a false (and often toxic) impression of how things are in real life.
E-kids-- "i was bored one day" the aesthetic
and i oop
Im honestly just tired of ppl saying theyre quirky cause they dyed their hair at home😪
ive been scene for 8 years now, i have my own alt server on discord- and this shit upsets me so much. it really sucks to see scene in the state its in today, people have turned it into basically just kandi, rainbow eyestrain checkerboard, invader zim, and music that isnt even scene..and im at a loss at what to do because i cant even keep it out of my server.
ah yes... "scenecore". tumblr/tiktok just stole our aesthetics and made it a trend. even as a "newer" alt group we have so much more complexity than that. its annoying asf
i can’t wait to watch this omg
oooohh is that a spirit level necklace? that’s so cool!!! they look so so so stimmy :D
Most of the people who are complaining about gatekeeping arent really alternative anyways, they just like the aesthetic because its popular now.
I remember this one thing that happened to me, I'm not a metal head but one of my favourite bands is Rammstein, I was wearing their shirt and this one time I was at a thrift shop convention in my town and this one guy (one of the creators of the convention) was literally following me everywhere I went just to ask me questions like "do you even know the band? When were you born? Oh so you weren't alive when the band was created?" so yeah it was creepy, my point is that irl gatekeeping is definitely a thing, but as you said people definitely shouldn't use the terms loosely.. my question is tho, can I identify myself as "alt" if I listen to punk/metal/ rock'n'roll/etc genres of music and have many ideologies? Basically, loves it all but can't pick one?
alt is an umbrella term so if you like a variety of music from alt cultures, then yea
e-kids r aesthetic communities like cottagecore and scenecore n stuff based on the look (check 'why is cottagecore so gay' (a video here on yt, tge girl on the thumbnail has sky blue hair), i think it's the same situ8ion)
"scenecore" is not a community. it's just the aesthetic of the general scene subculture which has music, ideologies, fashion, lingo, and movements. tumblr/tiktok stole our aesthetics and made it a hashtag, and we didn't really have a choice in the matter
Rowan Elllis is the YTer you meant that made the video about cottagecore :) (just leaving this here in case people are looking for her video)
anytime I finish a video and do something else I forget how amazing your voice is and then I start you video and I can't, I love your voice
The thing that frustrates me is people are like you need to learn more about it but give you absolutely no where to start to get into it, and all people are told is you can’t. It would be nice if they were given somewhere to start at least.
Ya I wanna get into that alternative culture and learn about it could you help me get started in learning because like they just say lol learn and disappear
a good start is checking out local bands in the scene; go to all sorts of shows, see what you like, keep going to see bands that you like and interacting with other folks in the scene. learn how to make patches, trade with other folks who make patches, submit to or start your own zine, etc. you can learn a lot about it just by listening to other folks in the subculture
There's a bit more diversity within the gothic communities here because the music didn't actually start the subculture. Literature did in the 18th and 19th centuries. Even the Addam's Family started prior to the music scene and shows what we now consider as "Gothic aesthetics" and other hallmarks of the subculture. (The 1930s is when the Addam's Family comic started.)
I think you need to learn the difference between Goth and darkly inclined. When it comes to Goth it most certainly did start with the music
@@jimpickens4067 Gothic literature existed before the music and coined the term, including the aesthetics.
Nice name, btw.
I love your earrings 🤩
Ashton has Sokka hair now
omg your haircut is the most beautiful thing ive ever seen
i dont really have a specific aesthetic / subculture i kind of just dress whatever i feel like and listen to whatever music i happen to like and i consider myself alternative. would that be sensible as theres no other labels i particularly fit
ur mullet is getting so lonnnnnnng im so jealous u look amazing
I don't even like the thought of putting myself into a subcategory because I take so much inspiration from other genres, if someone was to ask me what my subgenre was and I HAD to tell them, it would probably be punkrock, but even that doesn't feel right.
i love so many aesthetics, i don't really fit into any. i change my style based on the day and i love a lot of music genres. i tried to fit into one but now i'm happy to just float from one to another
Thank you this has been super helpful !!
Nothing to do with this vid but I LOVE YOUR EARRINGS! Omg I have just a row of empty T bottles that idk what to do with and that is so creative. :)
ive got called a gatekeeper on an 'alt tiktok/glitchcore playlist' for saying "quick reminder that none of the songs on this are alt and its literally just indie w extra steps" and ppl were SO MAD ITS ACTUALLY HILLARIOUS "wahh ur gatekeeping for saying hatsune miku isnt alt :(((" like girl.. you wouldnt last a second at a punk gig
the way hatsune miku is alt, but otherwise it checks out
@@lalalala-nz5tz ok yeah true
i absolutely hate when people say that to be goth (or any other subculture that relies on music) u can only listen to goth music. like no ? u can listen to other genres as long as u listen to ur subcultures music stuff mostly.😐😐
Thank you so much for making this video even if it’s 6 months old I was actually trying to do my own research on the alt community because I wanted to be apart of it for so long like since I was 11 and I even listen to songs that where apart of the alt community without knowing they were alt at the age of 7 or 8 maybe even 6 but I wanted to officially be apart of it and now I fully understand some parts of it! Thank you so much!!!
This was a very nice video to watch and you seem like a very smart person. I enjoyed your video alot 😊
I've been trying to understand atl for a while and this was very helpful thanks.
My favourite false accusation of gatekeeping was a comment saying that gatekeeping was bad bc goths "shouldn't have to listen to heavy metal 24/7 and the music isn't important" which is my favourite bc like,,, if u dont even know which genre the goth scene is formed around u CLEARLY arent the authority that should dictate who is goth
the way u danced around mentioning tiktok was so funny hdhfbanndjana
I never knew my music taste was rock untill i looked at the genera of my songs I thought it was all pop
I generally listen to scene and emo music but I have my own style. I love scene but I also love kawaii alternative stuff so I kind of mish-mash them together into a creepy-cute scene vibe lol.
That's okay! Being alternative is about being DIFFERENT! You can listen to whatever music you like from My Chemical Romance to BLACKPINK to anything at all and dress how you want to.
I don't know, I think it's Peak Punk to be a punk that refuses to listen to punk music because they don't want to be told what to do.
We need you on Cemetery Confessions, that would make my day! :D
that’s rly sweet thank you omg
You're welcome. :) I'm really glad to have found your channel. Always happy to see other Anarchogoths.
I'm feeling acknowledged as someone who wears lolita (several substyles but not gothic lolita) and other J-Fashion and watches you haha. I love seeing people from different alt cultures supporting each other. A punk recently told me they like my pastel J-fashion outfit and it made me so happy because they looked so cool themself. It's not a style I'm personally interested in wearing but I love seeing it on other people and it's just nice to see people and be able to assume instantly that they have good politics.
In the lolita community I've seen more people talk about supposed gatekeeping that they heard about than any actual gatekeeping. It's mostly like you said, defining the core of what makes up lolita is not gatekeeping. There are ofc some mean people online but no one is pulling that shit irl from what I can tell. I've been worried before that I'll get judged if I don't wear one of the more expensive brands, but the truth is that it's not about that, it's about coordination and creativity. Those people who only see people who wear the big brands as legitimate lolitas are in the minority and need to check their classism, but yeah, irl people are more chill than worried newcomers assume.
love this look! my university is currently doing most stuff online and for first-years some work groups physically starting next week (im in the netherlands, corona is. not the way it is in the usa (it's still not great but it's being handled))
I love your trad goth makeup
ayyy I’m early, love you and your videos 🖤
I know this video is old but it’s so common in the Lolita community for people to ask if they can call themselves a Lolita if they don’t wear Lolita fashion. Like uh no bestie. That’s the whole point. We do have the term Lolitas at heart for Lolitas who are saving up to buy a dress and are involved in the community. Otherwise you can just say you like Lolita fashion.
I feel like emo mightve been overlooked
So the way I see it is that every subculture has three main pillars and without at least two, you are automatically NOT in that subculture. To me, the most important aspects are art, aesthetic, and ideas. But to be clear, you have to some what align with all of the pillars. So for example, you can still identify as punk if you don't entirely "look" punk but you still have the same views and music taste. This can be with any combination. BUT IN THE CONTRARY, you absolutely cannot be conservative and be in any alt subculture (btw I see "alt" as an umbrella term).
"Alt" is a lot more difficult to define, but in my eyes alt just means you're generally left/liberal/anti-conservative, you listen to "alt" music, and your style wouldn't be classified as mainstream. I feel like too many people miss the original meaning of alt, which is just "alternative to mainstream". That can mean so many things. Alt isn't a subculture, alt isn't something you can pin point and gatekeep, it's so general and vague it defeats the purpose of the word when you gatekeep too much.
Also, I believe that many words like goth, punk, emo, and scene that represent subcultures can also represent fashion style just like it represents music genres. You can dress goth without necessarily being goth. It's she's punk vs. she's A punk if you know what I mean? So to a certain extent fashion deriving from subcultures can be independent just like the music and views can be, but fashion is so heavily gatekept in comparison to other aspects. If you watch an alt lookbook you're going to see an onslaught of "you're not a REAL ______ just because you dress like it" comments. Honestly, I don't think this is fair. Let the style name apply.
THANK. YOU. and my hot take is just liking goth music doesn't make you "goth"..... you just like a genre of music. A culture by definition requires multiple defining traits of a group. not just one.
Agreed! I think it's so hurtful to have these comments said to you, especially if you're still learning about all of the different parts of a subculture. The style is still a part of it!
god he seems like a cool person to be friends with 👉👈
I really enjoyed this video! It was so informative for me as someone who is an outsider to alt sub cultures/counter cultures but is interested in participating in them. I'm inspired by certain music and fashion that comes from specific cultures so I like to learn as much as I can so that I can fully understand the ins and outs and what their all about. I've had this interest for a very long time but I've been hesitant bc 1) I didn't know a lot and I didn't grow up/was exposed to alt subcultures and 2) social anxiety and the fear of asking the wrong questions online, as I have no one irl to ask. Ppl on the internet can be really vicious!
I'm wondering about the topic of conservatives and punks. When ppl in the punk scene say that a person can't be conservative and punk, are they referring to social conservatives or fiscal conservatives? I'm assuming its social conservatives as the ideologies and core values clash but I thought I'd ask just to make sure. Another question I have is about the topic of a person having to at least like goth music in order to identify as goth. This does make sense to me bc it is a culture that is built around the music. Obviously a person that identifies as goth doesn't have to like every single song in the genre bc everyone has their preferences. But I'm wondering if there is a line. Does goth music have to be their favourite or one of their favourites to be considered goth? What if a person only likes a handful of songs from the genre?
I'm sorry if my comment is a bit long to read, I was just really curious. 😅 I've seen questions like this pop up often and I've had my own questions for a very long time and I felt like I could get some answers here. I'm also open to hearing anyone else's input on the topic.
Thanks for reading this!
i just hate labels in any aspect, call me what u want but im still going to do what i want and wear what i want and like what i want im gonna believe in what i want to like.. im just gonna block u if ur just gonna talk down to me.
Me trying to focus on the video:
Me stairing at ashtons makeup cuz it’s pretty ^^
I really enjoyed listening to your views on this topic! My boyfriend is punk, I dabble in lolita, and I’ve recently discovered kinderwhore. There isn’t a lot of info on it as a style (other than inspo from courtney love & riot grrl) bc it’s a new ish subculture so I’ve just been looking up a lot of general videos on alternative fashion and subcultures and the dialogue in this video was very helpful!! Thanks :)
I like the way you define subcultures by two out of three. I consider myself punk and I've felt like I don't belong because I don't have a patched jacket haha but I do like punk music and agree with all the politics. I've made zines, though hehe
One of the best things I've ever experienced was one time a couple months ago where I was walking on the Moors and a cyclist approached me and stopped and I was just like oh cool so THIS is how I die and he was just like !!!!! Dude!!! I love ur shirt, I've loved the mission since the 80s and we had a whole conversation about gigs and how we hoped to see them again next year and it was my FAVOURITE (especially bc this guy was in his late 40s and I am an 18yo trans guy that got age checked at a 12 last year and I HAVE noticed that age group can be kinda infantalising and protective over those darn young people pretending to be goths for clicks and views)
I have a hard time differentiating a lot of music genres in general so it’s sent me into a bit of a hole LOL but I’m 70% confident in calling my taste punk :/ maybe metal too honestly not sure
Holy heck I love you
I’ve been interested in gothic and sweet Lolita for 2 years and about 4 months ago I found out about alt and I like it a lot and this video was very helpful! Thank you (I’m 12)
i just feel overwhelmed and confused because i have been trying to figure out who i am but every move i make it seems like everyone has something to say, weather it be about my music or clothing or whatever...i mean i am very picky with music and have a wide pallet, i like indie pop and rock, alternative rock, hard rock, R&B and more. i wish i had a community to help me and a specific label but i just don’t rn...and i know that’s okay but people call me “edgy” and i don’t hate it but then people on the internet come and say “you like this???? well then your not alt!!”and i just keep doubting myself because of it. i like a very limited amount of bands because i haven’t had too much exposure to different music genres in general...my music taste goes from MCR, TØP, and some others but i also am a HUGE billie eilish stan and i love frank ocean and HER etc, i like girl in red and king princess, idek i like a lot but i want to expand more and i feel like i keep getting judged for being a 15 year old who doesn’t know everything about subcultures, i just want a queer punk person to help guide me lol
i just wanted to ask - to anyone who still may read this, i guess - why we do not apply a sort of spectrum logic to these cultures. because obviously, you can be more or less part of the culture, be very close to its ideal when you present a lot of its core aspects - politics, music, aesthetic - and sometimes, relate to ppl listening to the music without actually liking the aesthetic, for instance
it probably comes from the way we see this alternative cultures - as communities; just like you can enter a party, it's like some ppl expect to have a membership card (in the form of a bunch of people affirming they are part of the community) whereas actually, it's more like a movement of aggregate people who at some point joined others and influenced each other to finally share some characteristics - once again, politics, music, aesthetic. i think (it really just is that, my own thoughts) it should be hammered that you see what you like, and from that, you talk to ppl, and eventually, you may end up in some circles that may be defined as gothic, etc - and not want to join it and shape your own personality around it? it sometimes feel like peer acceptance and judgement are far too important (which is quite logic especially when we're younger)
anyway that's what i was thinking about while you were talking, rather enlighting video btw
i also have seen a trend of people saying they're "alt" but theyre really not alt, theyre just what they think is alt which is a watered down tiktok version. I also see those same people bullying or making fun of people who are ACTUALLY ALT!!! Which like wtf, how can you call yourself alt and then turn around and bully someone who looks different than you and is actually way more alt. Like im not saying its a pissing contest on how "alt" you are i've just noticed it becoming a trend. People who used to be vsco when it was popular are now claiming to be "alt" because it's popular, they aren't being counterculture they're following trends. And what makes me so sad is that I'm actually growing into my punk/goth identity and people think im a poser, my dad was literally a punk rocker for 20+ years. I guess thats just my rant but idk. Is this gatekeeping or is it valid??
can you be alternative but not fit in a specific subculture?
Yup, I’m kinda in that area myself, namely because I like aspects of many different subcultures,
This is all very really really weird to me, whats with this obsession with labels. And needing to be accepted into a group. Gotta understand the alt/nerd/geek community is made up of a bunch of outcasts getting shit every day by the normies for liking anime, metal, geeky shit etc etc. Pretty much all of these bullied groups had that in common. Its the most accepting an diverse community ive ever been apart of. Rock clubs and bars no shit ever kicked off, no fights no nothing, everyone is bumping into each other and no fights breaking out. Knew plenty of lgbt etc in these places after the gay bars had shut they'd sometimes finish the night off in the rock club coz no one gave a shit. Even the random "normies" that would go in for a "laugh" at our expense would often stay longer and have a good time head banging with the metal heads. Or having a good old dance to Linkin Park coz that was one of those bands that everyone liked crawling or In the End :P I think the issue is that the fashion has been high jacked by the "normies" same with geek culture. The same kinda assholes who once would give them endless amounts of shit are now into. Or at least very surface level piss puddle levels of shallow knowledge. Which is not an issue if they are genuinely just getting into a thing, alt, geek etc. I think Foamy said it best "Im so sick of people reeping the benefits of a subculture without experiencing the consequences of the life style" Its just trendy now for the youth dress up like they are alt. Like you say you cant be Goth and not listen to the music. Ya jus a poser its not GaTeKeEpInG to be pointing out facts.
My least favourite sighting of gatekeeping is an intro post by someone in a local punk group that was just a selfie like hi, I love punk music and I wanna make friends that are also punks! That got dogpiled by DOZENS of older punks calling her a poser, or that she couldn't be punk bc of how she was dressed in ONE photo, or comments saying like "I bet she doesnt like REAL punk, she prolly just listens to green day". Like pls get a grip?? Aside from the fact it was pretty blatantly mostly from a place of sexism,,, that's just how u kill scenes real fast, and if the person was genuinely not into punk music or wasnt a leftist,,, best way forward is to give music recs and talk to them about the history, the politics ect
I thought his earrings were small saltshakers- turns out they’re apparently T bottles! That’s so cool
Wow you look cooler than usual in this video
hey dude, i'm trying to listen to more goth music and if you have any playlists i would love if you could drop a link! i've loveeddd bands you've mentioned before!!
I get told im not an emo kid most the time because i never really have the money to explore the fashion and get clothes to dress the way i want, but my music taste is DEFINITELY emo but obviously thats not the first impression of me.. (im also kind of a metalhead lmaooo)
"Fun being isolated for 2 weeks"
Oh the nieve ignorance
I have a Question...
If i listen to mostly Alt japanese music and hardly any english alt music does that make me alt?? I can listen to some msi and yung blud but i'm not too sure??? (BTW my political views are similar to alt people :) )
kind of a late comment but if u listen to alt music i think u can say ur definitely part of alt culture !
i feel like it would b weird if being alt was restricted by country, and japan creates a lot of alt music and fashion
i dont think singing in a different language really changes the genre of music haha
the light on ur hair looked like a weird ghost fire at first glance lmao
dig the earrings
Goths who say "you have to like the music" are gatekeeping. Why? They're completely ignoring the fact that there's a been a HUGE ongoing debate on what constitutes as "Goth music" for the past 30 or more years. It's not fair to say you have to like "The Music" when no one, not even 80s Goths, can come up with a definitive list of approved Goth bands that everyone agrees on. For example, you mention Industrial being Goth music and I know several Goths who'd vehemently disagree with you.
It's one thing to say, "I think these bands are Goth" or "This is how I define Goth" and realize that's an opinion. It's another thing to try and pretend your opinion is a fact and then use that opinion to deny or grant people access to the Goth subculture. Only a massive narcissist could believe that they have the power to exclude people from an entire subculture. It's just horrible and doesn't contribute to a subculture thriving.
The internet gives people the ability to draw these arbitrary lines where the scene begins and ends, overthink, and navel gaze. Whereas in real life, there are no lines and no one really gives a damn what you listen to. If there were lines they'd be shattered in several places because people in counter cultures don't like being put into boxes. At clubs and festivals no one really is all that picky when it comes to music and is just enjoying themselves.
“A lot of people who weren't there don't seem to understand. The term "Goth" wasn't really used at the onset because there wasn't this overarching need to classify ourselves as such. We were "ourselves", the people we hung out with were "our friends", and the people who we didn't hang out with was "everybody else". It was just "the club" or "the club that doesn't play shit music", not "the Goth club". In the mid-80's to mid-90's being Goth wasn't about the music only. It was the sensibilities and moods conveyed in the lyrics of the music we were hearing. So, the concept of Goth was a bit more encompassing to what I guess is considered now.” - theOttoman2010 on Reddit
"In fact, in the Lady of the Manners experience, the only musical thing that every Goth can agree on is that bands such as Joy Division, Bauhaus, The Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees, etc. were the ones who were around at the beginning. After that, everyone’s definition of Goth music is intensely personal, which is as it should be." -- Jillian Venters of Gothic Charm School
i mean yeah, goth is an amorphous umbrella genre. but at the end of the day it’s a music based subculture, and if you don’t enjoy /any/ of the music, you aren’t goth. I’m not trying to say that music is goth and what isn’t. I’m just saying that the music is an essential part of it.
@@graveyardpansy "but at the end of the day it’s a music based subculture, and if you don’t enjoy /any/ of the music, you aren’t goth."
But in order for this to be true there first must be a universally agreed upon list of Goth bands. And, there isn't.
The "music based subculture" ideal is shared by many but I see things a bit differently. In sociology, cultures are defined as being made up of many elements (i.e. values, beliefs, norms, symbols, and etc) that create a lifestyle for various people. To me, there isn't a basis for the culture as each element is of equal importance. So, you can like other elements of the subculture and still be apart of it even if "the music" isn't to your liking. Is it good to know about? Sure. But there's a difference between knowing and liking.
"Finally, the Lady of the Manners wants to remind you (and all the other Snarklings who are reading this) of something very important: you don’t have to like all the Goth things to be a Goth. The Lady of the Manners has had to reassure so many people of this lately! You don’t have to like Goth music, you don’t have to like horror movies, you don’t have to dress head-to-toe in spooky finery, you don’t have to dye your hair or have tattoos, you don’t have to wear makeup, you don’t have to go to goth clubs … THERE IS NO CHECKLIST. If you’re calling yourself a Goth, that means there’s something about the dark and lush subculture that calls to you."- Jillian Venters
For some Goths, music may not be a big deal to them. But that doesn't mean they aren't a part of the subculture. People go to Goth clubs all the time only to socialize or see their friends.
That's not gatekeeping. It may be possible for someone to be considered goth but preferring other non-mainstream music, because goth is way more than just music. The only thing that is not acceptable is only dressing like goths (or any other subculture) and nothing else, but then claiming to be part of It. Fashion does not make a goth.
Isn't the goth subculture partly built off of gothic literature/novels?? Genuine question (I know this comment is super old but still, I'd like to know)
@@-ix-3152 Yes, you are correct! In the 90s, magazines like Carpe Noctem and As If always featured poetry and short stories written by people in the subculture as well as interviews by Gothic authors. Poppy Z. Brite, Storm Constantine (who recently passed away), Neil Gaiman, Caitlin R. Kiernan, and Tanith Lee were VERY popular amongst Goths in the 90s. Gypsy 83 reference this during the scene in the Goth club when the group of elitists bully Clive because he doesn't know who Poppy Z Brite is.
Siouxsie and the Banshees originally called themselves "Gothic" because they took a lot of influence from Edgar Allan Poe.
"We'd actually described Join Hands as "gothic" at the time of its release, but journalists hadn't picked up on it. Certainly, at that time we were reading a lot of Edgar Allan Poe and writers like that. A song like "Premature Burial" from that album is certainly gothic in its proper sense.” - Steve Severin