George R.R. Martin Regrets Killing a Character Off
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- Опубликовано: 31 июл 2023
- Carmine and I discuss Dianna Gabaldon's story about how GRRM told her that he regretting killing someone off in A Song of Ice and Fire as he realized he needed the character later.
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Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. A Game of Thrones is one of the most successful television series to ever made and continues to captivate audiences all over the world. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil war among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter and the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
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It’s pretty obvious GRRM regrets killing Janos Slynt.
Why?
Because Janos Slynt had friends at court. POWERFUL FRIENDS!
True ending of ASoIaF: Bran made king.....immediately killed by Gold Cloaks as revenge for Jon's actions.
If all of Janos Slynt’s powerful friends at court arrived at the Wall to avenge him right as the Others broke through, the War for the Dawn would be over in a day.
@@GodKingReiss It's pretty well established that Allar Deem is Azor Ahai
BRO 😂😂😂😂😂
The king himself made him a lord!
If George is in a corner, because Varys killed Kevan, causing political chaos, does that mean that Varys outsmarted George. That's really meta
That is meta! 😂
Frankenstein’s monster 😂
My thought is that it has to be Aemon. He could be the point of connection between Jon and Dany, or at least serve as a way of alerting the latter to the former's presence. Plus he's got knowledge of SO much history, including whatever prophecy stuff Rhaegar might've been up to.
Been catching your recent live streams and videos. Keep up the good work.
I wonder if drinking the rum he's stored in could be a exposition stand in much like shade of the evening
I agree! I understand why people think it’s Kevin but i think his death is pretty satisfying (or at least thematically strong) and opens up a lot of possibilities (chaos in KL) but Aemon’s really only closes doors imo. His death is really anticlimactic, which may be the point, but it still means zooming out and looking at everything he did in the past 5 books it feels like he wasn’t nearly as important as he should have been. Plus as Preston spoke about GRRM has no way of walking that death back.
But what can Aemon do or say that Marwin, Bloodraven, Bran, or others can't? Narratively speaking, Aemon is dispensable
I mean Aemon could come back his corpse was stuffed in a barrel of rum on the same ship Marwin is using to head to Dany where Mocorro is also going to be
Checked his notes and realised Pycelle was supposed to be Azor Ahai
You mean Samwell?
😅
Can't wait for Tom bombadil to be the chosen one
Varys, the sterile dragon
"My lord ah awoo aha ah ahwoo"
Killing Kevan essentially makes the next two weeks extremely hard for Cersei to survive with any power intact, and would require a level of manipulation to maintain that she simply does not have. For me I imagine most paths lead to either ‘exile to a convent’ or ‘exile back to Casterly Rock’, *at best*. They could also just kill her; it depends on how quickly the religious zealotry is kicking in in the city.
That's a good point. I was worried that Kevan's and Pycelle's deaths would allow Cersei to regain power, but now that I think about it, why would Mace Tyrell, Randyll Tarly, the Sparrows, her handmaidens (babysitters), etc., let her anywhere near power? People have been trying to get Cersei to Casterly Rock since Robert died, and now Jaime isn't there to help her. I can't think of a single ally she has except the fallen Qyburn and Robert Strong.
Also thought Kevan for these reasons. Also why should Mace and Randyll bother to make Maegery have a trial now? With Kevan alive he could insist but Mace is now de facto leader of the country and has a large army at Kingslanding so he can do whatever he wants, including getting rid of the High Sparrow.
@@Phil_Burton I’d say the Tyrells removing the church from the equation is a very likely occurrence, but attempting to do so as early as Margaery’s trial may be risky. Currently the two groups have a shared goal in removing the Lannisters and taking power, and the Church’s judgement needs to have weight in order for that to work. The goal may be to play along until Cersei is truly gone, then remove the radical faction with their army (it’s all very rock-paper-scissors, in that way).
This is all assuming that nothing bad happens to pull the Tyrell armies away from Kings Landing, of course. Like the Golden Company landing in Storm’s End. Or Euron Greyjoy’s massive raiding fleets. Or Stannis’ newly Iron Bank funded army in the North. Or whatever the fuck is going on in the Riverlands. Or-
@@PineappleLiar I think the key part here is in the epilogue where Mace questions even having the trial and Randyll complains it's ridiculous they have to take the High Sparrow seriously. Anyway I can totally see how killing Kevan makes some real narrative problems for the crucial week or two that starts right after Dance ends.
So what you are saying is that it will be super easy, barely an inconvenience.
I believe GRRM said in an update from last year that he had finally finished a clutch of Cersei chapters that was giving him trouble, so that might give credence to the character being related to the Cersei story
if that is true, then good for us, it could end up being way better than he's originally planned. or not and we can be just glad George's written himself out of one of the corners he got himself into
Wasn't there sometime ago he said he regrets killing Robb Stark because he could have been a great POV character?
@@evoxghirettiI remember something similar, but I think it was never giving Robb any POV chapters before killing him. The Red Wedding is way too central to the story so I don't think he could have kept Robb alive
I'm still a believer that Grey Wind is alive and Robb warged into him. Copium is at it's highest in my presence.@@custodioMendoza55
@@custodioMendoza55I assumed killing rob meant he wasn’t the last one standing.
In the interest of fairness it should be noted that the big knock against it being Kevan is that causing political chaos in King's Landing was the literal reason Varys killed him. It would be mad if George was like "I'm gonna kill Kevan to create political chaos in KL" then a couple years later he's like "oh no !! I created political chaos in KL by killing Kevan Lannister".
It could be that was what George wanted to write but once it became time to actually write it he got stuck.
@@robertlowe6367 Totally plausible. I am, however, beginning to suspect the person he killed might be from further back in the story & that's why he's stuck. That one death could have had knock on effects that have left him, as he said, painted into a corner and the longer it's been since it happened, the harder it would be to untangle.
@@pieceofgosa Are you talking about Lommy greenhands?
@@RandomGuy-qg9xf anything they could impart by way of exposition could simply be found in some mysterious old book at the Citadel, or in a hidden letter written before a characters death. It cannot just be an exposition thing. I think it's more likely he accidentally killed the last heir to something/somewhere & now he really needs an heir for that thing.
@@BenJover Obviously I was talking about Nimble Dick :D
I was really shocked by Kevan’s death, and actually saddened. He was one of my favourite tertiary characters in the books because he has the Lannister name, the intelligence, but is also kind and sensitive.
It was 100% Kevan he regretted killing
He's not really kind. He did whatever messed up thing tywin told him to do and worshipped him basically. He's more neutral than anything
@@woodyhorton8537 He followed a strong leader, but wherever he could he was kind and reasonable. And we don’t have much on what cruelty Kevan actually ordered himself- to my knowledge he doesn’t seem like he ever gave a cruel order himself, he may have only spoke what his lord ordered. To me serving your lord faithfully doesn’t change your morality much.
@@JamesCourse66what if your lord/brother were the nazis and ordered kevan to exterminate a race of people. Of course it effects if your a good person or not, it doesn't matter the reason thousands are dead w/ the help of kevan. Specifically the riverlands have been warcrimed to hell
@@JamesCourse66"They will burn my lord" - Kevan after being told to set fire to the riverlands. The way he said it and the tone of that bit implies he takes some degree of satisfaction in the action imo. That being said i did like Kevan.
With Kevan dead, Cersei basically is going to go nuts trying to gain control while Tyrells and the Faith battle for power. Tommen will choose Mace as hand and it won't be that hard for GRRM. If Genna shows up it will be fascinating, because despite having some Lannister fire, she's a grieving mother with honest ambitions. I'd love to see Olenna and Genna meet.
Mace is already Hand, Kevan was Lord Regent.
To be fair, killing Kevan was one of the most unexpected things to happen at the end of book 5. George wanted to shock us and he succeeded big time. I remember reading it in 2013 and being like nice the next book will be coming soon. Oh wait...
So he might have shocked himself as well, lol
@@MiddleEarthGirl75
It was nice to have Varys come back with a bang but Kevan was taken from us too soon.
Kevan is easy to write around. Do a 2 week time skip for Gemma to arrive and say that the High Sparrow granted Tommen’s request to delay the trial 7 days after the funeral and the funeral is delayed for Gemma and other Lannisters to arrive.
She would be at the wedding though, surely ? About to get stonehearted
@@williamcobbett4943 If she hears that Kevan just died, she might go to KL. But that would kinda be out of character, because she seems to value safety over political power.
On my recent reread, I was surprised how much I liked Genna. She's so funny, and also no nonsense. And she's only in like two chapters. Would love to see her play a bigger role in the last books.
Now I'm looking forward even more to your fanfic.
I feel like it's Maester Aemon. I know his arc seems fairly complete but... His Death was awkwardly handled compared to most other characters. It's like he died cause he was old and that's what he's supposed to do? Like George didn't know what to do with him for a minute, and then later might have remembered things he could have done with him. I can't think of anyone else. Every other death seemed pretty deliberate. Aemon is the only one who seemed to have died from a lack of immediate narrative utility, that might have been a lapse. Aemon went to the Wall with Bloodraven. He might've been key to some things that only George could tie together. But it could just be Kevan.
Aemon had lived that long. Could have made it to Old town, help Sam. Could probably stay there if he didn't think he could handle the voyage back (not only long but terrible weather).
That's the exact character who first came to my mind, and it was one of the first ones Preston thought of, too. Aemon being a Targaryen who was around during the reigns of Bloodraven and all the kings that followed, as well as accompanying Bloodraven to the Wall (where the latter eventually became lord commander then lost beyond the Wall), I would imagine that Aemon's combined knowledge of history and magic is probably unmatched (maybe Marwyn has more combined knowledge). Not only that, he seemed to be having either prophetic or glass candle dreams as he was dying. I would like to hear Aemon's interpretations of a lot of the prophecies our characters ponder.
I think his body will be used in a blood magic ritual, as it is preserved in a cask of rum, and I think it is still on the Cinnamon Wind, which is on its way to Slaver's Bay. But having Aemon alive right now could open up a lot of possibilities, either at the Citadel with Sam or Slaver's Bay with Marwyn, Dany, Tyrion, etc.
@@j-rey- I also just feel like Aemon could probably confirm a lot of little details that could become important? Like he probably knows for a fact that Dark Sister was with Bloodraven so it's for sure in his cave, and he might have insight to where Blackfyre actually is, or what's up with that family line beyond a passing knowledge. He's old enough to remember a lot of important things, and somehow socially adjacent enough to possibly be informed. It'd make sense for him to have kept tabs on a lot of info that fans want to know, and characters may want to know.
But... Kevan does make a lot of sense too lol. Aemon's just the only death that feels like it could have been by accident whereas Kevan's felt very deliberate at the time. Kevan's death could be a "mistake" but that's not the same as "I accidently killed a character"
You can use Blood Raven and Bran to get into any minute valerian history and prophecy Aemon didn't tell Sam or Jon
Measter Marwyn, Quathe, probably Euron all know these secrets aswell. With all these characters able to communicate instantaneously across any distance makes that an easy fix.
It's more likely Kevan as a domino that makes all the other fall around him especially in a naritively and geographically tight a spot as kings landing
Or someone in Mereen but no one super important died...Quentin shhh you didn't do anything important besides free the dragons. Though your story was beautiful.
@@zachthecool4321 I mean if you're trying to convey something to the readers you could use those characters, but they're not connected to the larger cast right now. Bran's "dead" and Bloodraven's been "dead" for years as far as anyone in Westeros knows. We don't know how easy it will be for Bran to link up with the rest of the cast. The characters relationship with each other isn't the same as the characters relationship with the reader.
The character almost has to be Aemon. He could easily have had some Summerhall knowledge that would be hard to give to other characters. He's also the last character that could bring forth any Targaryen secret knowledge passed down only to family members, since Viserys was orphaned so young (and would probably be reluctant to share anything with his sister anyways). His death is also quite random, not serving any grand purpose in the narrative, it would be quite easy to regret letting go of the character so soon, as his death could have been postponed without much of an issue.
Pretty easy to do with hidden journals at the wall written while he was there.
@@sicksock435446or letters he sent to the citadel , or confessed to the citadel years ago that they’ve kept in their secret vaults all this time. Sam could find that or have maesters reveal it to him.
This feels like a fan answer more than a George answer, as in, we would have loved to learn all of Aemon's secrets, but that's not really how George writes. He's more likely to reveal bits and pieces, and he can quite easily still do that in any number of ways - Sam recounting something he once said, hidden papers, time traveling Bran or someone else sending things in dreams. I feel like the answer has to be based on something the person can do rather than something they knew, which is why I lean toward Kevan, since he was in a position of power in a pivotal place and time in the story.
@@TheDelinear Fair enough. I mean if its up to George then he'll have 5 different characters bring it up independently over the course of 500000 words. XD
My friend and I have a joke where we randomly ask "Do you know the story of the tournament at Harrenhall in the year of the false spring?" Due to the number of times it's discussed/referenced in the books.
But Aemon was literally getting his brain invaded by Marwyn and the Sphinx, so I feel like if we’re just talking about Aemon’s knowledge then we don’t really have an issue here, we can get that from a number of places. None of these deaths seem like big hurdles to me
Genna has that feeling because she's the one Lannister who doesn't have some ulterior motive and isn't always plotting or planning. She's the ONE fully open & truthful Lannister that just says what it is, period. That's why you have that feeling about her.
Genna has what feeling? Genna is still alive, if that's what you mean (i.e. that her death is what is frustrating George).
@@j-rey-the feeling of having genuine familial interactions. And she is planning, but she's upfront about her objective being to secure the future and standing of her remaining progeny, preferably in lands less potentially fraught than Riverrun for their holder.
Uh...what about Daven or Kevan?
I think it has to be a recent death to be able to delay winds. If it's a character who died in the earlier books , George would have had 20 years to find a solution. And IMHO it's the most recent major death in the story:Kevan.
He was the last person able to hold Cersei back from going full Mad Queen. The cross bow is an easy way to frame Tyrion, confirming Cersei's paranoia and sending her down the path of madness too early in the story. Perhaps George may have meant for Cersei to have a slower descent in Winds
Edit: I also remember a few Blog posts where George talked about Cersei chapters giving him headaches. So it seems to line up pretty well.
this is very plausible
It cannot be a main character in a plot, because those deaths are embedded in the story structure. Yes, Kevan's death triggers Cersei's madness, but it's reversible. If it happens too early, GRRM can simply shorten Cersei's chapters, stretch them out so they're less notables, thus making the other plots catch up.
@JMTgpro also, it's not like a switch thats being flipped. It would still plausably be a slow decent, even if the direct tigger already happened.
@@JMTgpro I wouldn't say "cannot," but I agree that it is very likely not a character that died in a pivotal plot beat, in this case, Kevan and Pycelle at the end of act 2. There are probably ways that Cersei can be controlled still. She is never left unattended, Mace Tyrell is still hand, Randall Tarly is now on the small council, and the Sparrows still have a vice grip on the city.
@@JMTgpro he doesn't have a story structure. He's a gardener, remember ?
Chad Summerchild regrets nothing
This is known
@@chadsummerchild1120peter griffin
CSC did nothing wrong!
Giggity
QUEEN IN THE NORTH!
So since she is this close to George it puts more validity behind what she said about the show ending:
“What happened is that his show caught up with him, and he then met with the showrunners and he told them what he was planning to do in that book, so that they could then write accordingly,” Gabaldon explained.
“Only they didn’t write accordingly, they took his stuff, and distorted it and wrote their own ending, which wasn’t at all what he had in mind but used all the elements that he told them.”
If I had to guess it would be Oberyn Martell. He seems to be connected to every major story plot (from Dani, to Jon Con, to Kings landing, to Old Town to the Riverlands to the Wall) but he died without connecting a single dot or resolving a single plot point. Which means George now has to introduce another character who can connect all those dots for him without it feeling forced or opening plot holes.
Not to forget how important the sand snakes will be in the next book.
Literally who my first thought was. He could easily have intro’d The Sand Snakes without killing Oberyn. And think of all the knowledge that was lost that could be shared by Oberyn since he traveled the world.
I think his death was a big catalyst for other events. And its a very George thing to introduce an instant fan favourite and then kill them off in an anti-climax.
He was my first guess, too.
Also my first thought. His demise was so quick and sudden without even exploring more deeply his character and giving him a chance to have some bigger impact on the story.
If he’s really agonising about getting Genna or Daven to court to serve as regent, then I’d honestly just recommend him to let her borrow the jetpack for a while.
It’d be strange if she turned up as early as Cersei III, but at this point, I’ll take a few inconsistencies over nothing lol.
Could the problem be that Genna needs to be in Jamie's story aswell? So Genna has to be in the Riverlands and Kingslanding at the same time. He might have intended for her to wrap up her part in Jamie's story before Kevan dying, and then he forgot that.
Exactly. I mean Yoren rode from the Inn at the Crossroads to Kings Landing, in no time flat, to tell Ned about Catelyn abducting Tyrion. He admits to having nearly killed his horse in doing so, but god damn, we have set a precedence that people can cross the Riverlands briskly when they set their minds to it.
I also feel like Kevan's death has as much of an ambiguity out as Quentyns or Jons. We don't witness Kevan dying, we don't witness any other POV mourning over his corpse. He takes a quarrel in the ribs and starts gurgling up blood. The little kids approach him with knives, but we don't know what follows. Maybe they botch the job and the cuts aren't fatal. Maybe a guardsman bursts in to the room just as Kevan loses consciousness and the epilogue ends. He could easily wake up grievously wounded and plays whatever part GRRM needs him to before succumbing to his wounds at the point where his death once again serves the purposes of the story George is trying to tell.
Theories aside, it was overall a pretty stupid move by Varys to have the little birds go stabby stabby with their knives. Both Pycelle and Kevan dying by crossbow bolt sends much more shockwaves through the court at Kings Landing and especially Cersei, as they will immediately think it was Tyrion hiding in the walls that whacked Kevan and Pycelle.
@@BasicPrinciplesGTA Prologues and epilogues always feature characters that die though.
It's possible that there's a character in WINDS that George has been planning on killing for a while (maybe Victarion). But once that character is dead, it brings a lot of issues. So he doesn't want to undo that decision because the death serves a narrative purpose.
I saw someone else mention Beric Dondarrion in this comment section, and I think that is a very interesting take. Having someone capable of the kiss, and with the knowledge and experience of being undead, would be invaluable to several main characters, e.g. Jon and Mel at the Wall, Dany, or maybe even Bran/Bloodraven.
Edit: I see some people mentioning Stoneheart as a possible replacement for Beric, but Stoneheart is completely enmeshed in the Riverlands, Frey, and Red Wedding 2.0 storylines. There is almost no way that she would be able to serve any significant role in the story at the Wall unless she borrowed Littlefinger's jetpack.
But Beric would be really easy to bring back. There's already missing members of the bwob that he could be leading and rumours and uncertainty about his death/survival are all around.
@@jonttopiaI’m not sure it is with Thoros saying he gave his breath to resurrect Catelyn. That seems to indicate he just dropped dead. For him to come back it seems like Thoros would be the one. Unless they’re inferring his body wouldn’t be breaking down now that his flame is extinguished. Just feels a little tough to me. I’ve always been of the mind it was a Beric like johnr3123 said regarding his experiences w being a fire wight that isn’t obsessed with revenge.
Stoneheart could give kiss of life to Jon to bring him back
@@Runningdeeringthey also say several times that it’s getting harder and harder to resurrect Beric for him and for Thoros. I think if Beric had one or two more deaths, he would’ve taken his own life.
I honestly think Lady stoneheart won’t last long in the winds of winter. Jamie and Brienne were last seen together and I doubt brienne would bring Jaime to his death. If I had to guess, they’re gonna work together to somehow take on the brotherhood without banners
GRRM REGRETS IT ALL
Lemongate is real
Shoulda stuck with the trippy ass sci fi stories.
@@willisveryniceyeah, honestly, probably should have. Personally, even though we don't talk about it, because the drop off for the show was so much worse, there has been a dip in quality from the first three books, at least in my opinion
He regrets the millions upon millions of dollars
@@aegonii8471 🤣 nice call
What about Jon Snow? Having him be secret royalty is hard when he's zombified
It has to be someone who has not been needed much in other circumstances but needs to be here for a specific plot point.
Arts Oakheart?
Genna as the regent.... Much as I like this idea I had always had this impression that she would die pretty soon after she was introduced. I mean, she was so nice and interesting character, but off to be killed.
I also had the impression that Jaime will die pretty soon. There is certain feeling of his path coming to an end, especially when he muses how he managed to end the conflict at Riverrun without fighting Tullys. He also goes to Harrenhal and hears all the stories and rumours that are being said about Brienne and him like you can see the tale of his life being told. I could totally see him dying in his next chapter.
What are the chances GRRM is talking about a character he killed off early in Winds of Winter and the reason he is having trouble is because he realized he will have to rewrite a good chunk of Winds of Winter?
My bet would be Victarion
In that case it most surely is Barristan
Oh no!!! We will never get the book then 😂
@@everethwilkins7076
Yep.
@@everethwilkins7076 Damn. What a waste if that is the case. If he ended up killing Barry but not Vic that is such a disappointment, will honestly be bummed if that is the case. Barristan is such an asset to Dany and will be her greatest guiding force once in Westeros, the man who has living memory of Aegon V and those good days. If he dies, all she will have is a bitter and utterly insane Tyrion as her Hand.
Genna better live by the end of the novels, she is such a great character.
lol We barely know her lol
@@bonbonvegabon and? Her time in scene was pure gold and what we know of her is great. More time in scene doesn't always means better, is more about the right time.
I always thought it was Arys Oakheart, since he said he regretted writing that chapter as well
9:22 you could make the argument for Lancel Lannishter. He is Kevan's direct heir and he is in KL. Having someone who is a Lannister but tied to the HS and the Warriors Sons as regent would be interesting
Yeah I think Lancel will be regent. Mace will be affronted and want to be regent. Mace may then call Genna to come , so that they can both work to overpower Lancel. Lancel is loyal to the faith, so he’s a danger to both Cersei and Margery.
The Hand is appointed, not inherited. Lancel as Hand wouldn't make much sense.
@@wizardsummoner9124 Regent not Hand
@@aaronwilson8632 Either way, it doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be family. Mace can be Regent.
One theory I saw on Reddit was that the character GRRM regretted killing was Pycelle, because he was present at the birth of Prince Aegon, and could thus be could be able to prove or disprove Young Griff’s identity via some sort of birthmark, or the lack of one.
Not that I expect anyone would listen to him, but it could have been one of the little clues GRRM used to plant suspicion about Griff
It doesn't matter if Young Griff is Aegon or not, the people will believe him, and that's all that matters. People believe what they want to believe. Otto Hightower said something very important about Aegon II in the last episode of HotD: "He has the conqueror's name, he has the conqueror's sword, he wears the conqueror's crown." I suspect all three of these will also apply to (f)Aegon VI: he obviously has the name, Blackfyre is probably in that chest that Illyrio sends with him and Tyrion and the rest on the Shy Maid, and Aegon's crown has gone suspiciously missing in Dorne at some point in history. Perfect moment for it to show up again (and for Dorne to tie itself to the new king through this).
Wouldnt Lancel taking his fathers place as Regent make more sense? Especially since the Faith have the power in KL and they would want the one Lannister involved in the Faith running things.
I think it's definitely Maester Aemon, he's old enough and interested in prophecy enough to have a lot of knowledge and conclusions that are unknown to everyone else
First name that came to my mind was Lysa. No real reason why but it's one of the few that you definitely can't put back in the bottle.
Cersei's trial won't end up happening imo The High Sparrow will instead attempt to install Lancel in the Rock, and won't want his name sullied as star witness against the queen
My guess is it’s Darean. I think there’s information that Darean was suppose to bring back to a resurrected John at the wall, but with Aemon dead and Sam in Oldtown, he doesn’t have a way to do that.
I think GRRM was talking about Jon Snow.
I know not many people agree with my opinion but I think that Jons death means that he will no longer be a POV character (similar to Cat after she was resurrected).
My immediate thought was some Frey. It can't be someone that's too important for the major plot, like Tywin or Ned. Their deaths have such an obvious effect on the story that it would be ridicolously stupid by George to not think it through. It has to be some character that at first doesn't seem very important so you can kill them without thinking too much about it, but they are part of some complex system where you realize they are necessary once you start digging in it. None of the Frey characters are really big parts of the plot, so I can see George killing them without thinking, but the Frey succession is really complicated and I believe Frey succession/civil war will be a big part of winds. I can't think of what dead Frey it would be though, Merret and Little Walder are too far down the list of succession to matter. Maybe Jinglebell?
I agree, "accidentally" killing off a character sounds like it would be a relatively minor character where the consequences aren't immediately obvious. My thought was that it could have been someone at the Red Wedding, that now suddenly has an effect on the entire Northern plotline. The Frey situation is a good option too.
I was going to say Jinglebell as a joke answer to this video 😆, but you actually made good points about the Frey civil war. It would be a pretty interesting story to see the Freys fighting over control of Jinglebell's regency if he is in fact the next in line at some point. That makes it less about succession and more about power, as you don't need to be the HEIR to control the Twins, you need to control JINGLEBELL to control the Twins.
@@j-rey- it would kinda parallel KL and winterfell aswell. As the struggle for power there is who can control Tommen and fArya
could it of been a character he had killed at the very start of his winds of winter manuscript, and realised later that that character was essential. Sure its reversable as hes still writing it but perhaps it was so much of a problem to him because it was a major important death early on in the book so he was forced to go back rewriting not only that death, but also all of the POVs that that death would of effected.
Little Walder, mayhaps.
*heh*
The issue w/ Kevan's death from a political point of view I feel like is by design.
I personally think the wildcard that's going to help out Cersei is actually Aegon. In his journey of wanting to become a righteous king, he might disagree with the way Cersei's being treated (potentially against JonCon's strategic wishes).
Or he may announce his presence otherwise at Storm's End, drawing enough attention to delay Cersei's trial.
Cersei on the other hand may warm up to new opportunities. Wasn't she drawn to Rhaegar's looks when she was younger, looking forward to potentially getting married to him?
She also saw those similar features of physique in Auran Waters, right? Maybe the imagery of a younger version of Rhaegar will excite her enough to inspire new kinds of impulsivity for her character, potentially thinking she has a chance to be wed to Aegon.
Maybe that's how the "Cersei x Golden Company" from the tv show happens.
If the dead character really is someone George "needs", then it has to be exclusive to either a plot thread or the development of another character.
If it's a main character, I was wondering if it's just Catelyn, & he doesn't like where he is with her now; frustrated with the limitations of her state.
Could also be any of the other witnesses to Robb's will, & he doesn't like the state the remaining survivors are in.
We need to bare in mind, there might be a difference between which deaths he left ambiguously, & which ones are just ambiguous to us, but irreversible to him.
With that in mind, it could also be recent-historical characters, like Ashara Dayne.
Aegon/Cersei would be such a wild twist, I kinda love it.
I like it how Varys uses "the evil voice", a common poirot troupe when the murderer have been found out and explains his motive.
Nice Mitchell and Webb reference.
indeed :D@@williamcobbett4943
@@williamcobbett4943 And he suddenly looks sexier!
Could it possibly be jamie? I just wonder if george feels like theres no way to logically write him out of lady stonehearts grip without killing him. In general Im wondering if he wrote a character into a corner so much that theres no other way but to kill them off.
he could use thoros to resurrect him
@@921Ether oh yeah you're right.. its been a while :)
I think we should think about this less from a logistical standpoint like "there must be a Lannister in KL". I'd guess it it's rather someone who could have driven the story/motives of a pov character forward.
That said I don't have a good idea who it could be yet...
WAIT, WAIT, I GOT THE SOLUTION. Kevan was killed late in the book and it was a Kevan point of view, so It Was All A Dream. He dreamed Varys killed him. He wakes up and Wow what a terrible dream.......That being said I think it is Maester Aemon .
One of the things I "love" about Cersei's as a character is that on the surface at first, we're sort of inclined to root for her in a weird way from a feminist angle. She's the overlooked daughter who wants to follow in her father's footsteps as a political player, but now she's taking control on her own. But, besides being an awful person, she's also, like, awful at politics. Tywin is a bad role model on many levels, even as a politician, but even then she took only the wrong lessons from him. She's a blunt instrument even when she thinks she's being subtle, and she gets outplayed by people like the Tyrells and her own father because she doesn't really know what she's doing. She's petty, spiteful, and impatient. She knows only how to win enemies and alienate friends. Her solution to everything is to kill people. She only "won" against Ned and Robert because Ned was even worse at politics and Robert was too soused. Even then, she just kind of got lucky. To see her interact with Genna, who in many ways has the exact same background, but who seems much, much smarter, frankly, would just be fascinating.
Killing people isn't her solution to EVERYTHING. Sometimes she seduces them into her bed, as with the Kettleblacks & Lancel
@@michaelwoolley7034 ...in order to get to kill people for her.
What about Berric Dondarrion? He died for real when he passed his spark into Lady Stoneheart.
FANTASTIC answer. I can't believe I didn't think about that. I was always kinda confused why the Brotherhood split into two factions. We just hear that Beric gave Cat the kiss, and the next thing we know, half the Brotherhood is a bunch of angry revenants and the other half are MIA. Having someone with knowledge and experience with resurrection would be mindblowing for most characters in the story, and he could be useful at the Wall, for example.
I like this
Killing Aerys was a mistake
It could also be from a Feast for Crows, remember, because that book happens at the same time as Dance.
I think the real reason the winds of winder has been so delayed is that he was going to wrap it up EXACTLY like the show, saw the backlash and has been in a panic to change the ending ever since to pretend that wasnt how he was ending it
it's obviously ned, well gotta rewrite the series.
the publisher will probably be on board because they can finally release something.
a new (old) book that's a sweet win-win for them.
right now remakes are the big thing anyway, right?
finally the era of book remakes begins.
no tbh i think it may very well be quentin or loras.
not because they are dead but because george does not understand his own writting anymore.
he has said a few times that often he can't remember he wrote something or why he wrote a certain plot.
i have that myself sometimes and george is both old and has six billion plots so it's not easy to always remember what you wanted to do with them.
another guess is shay, as he told sibel he wished he hadn't killed her and he might now feel like he owe's her something.
and because of that feeling he does not know what to do.
the guy that took davos' place above white harbor
the right answer
You're all wrong. It's Ser Twenty of House Goodmen.
Just have some sort of stipulation where the grand maester must be present for Cersei's trial. Then Genna has time to arrive while the citadel sends a new maester.
I heard in an interview long ago that George regretted killing Robb before giving him any POV chapters. I’m certain he intended for Robb to die, but apparently he wanted us to gain more insight into the character before that happened.
Really? He's a teenage boy who grew up at Winterfell under the Starks. We have two comparaboe POVs in Jon and Theon and from almost everyone around him except Rick on. I seriously doubt there's any valuable insight to be had... George just loves writing.
@@uosdwis-r-dewoh14 Robb is the antithesis of Jon and Theon. Robb was the prodigy firstborn who was good at everything. Jon and Theon have massive inferority complexes that manifest themselves in different ways. Robb was handed everything from his birthright to his army, whereas Jon needed to work from the ground-up to acquire any real power. I think it's fair to say that Robb, while definitely comparable, would have a different perspective on the world.
Ummm. GRRM NEVER wraps things up. I have read most of his written works and Preston has read them all. Not a single one has a clean ending. They are all unfinished.
lol, I'm reminded of a quote from Dune:
Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife - chopping off what's incomplete and saying: 'Now, it's complete because it's ended here. ' - from "Collected Sayings of Maud'Dib'' by the Princess Irulan.
Justice for Robb :(
Maybe Ryman? He might have some specific idea in mind for how stuff plays out in the Riverlands, and Ryman's survival (at least for now) could've facilitated that? Or if its a character whose been dead a while, maybe Oberyn? The Dornish story makes very little sense, so Oberyn's survival could've influenced how things play out? idk...
I was really surprised they didn't mention Oberyn
I think Oberyn's a good call too. He could have been useful for so much more than one great fight and ghastly death scene.
I think it’s Robb Stark. GRRM has said before that he regrets not giving Robb his own POV chapters. And now GRRM is stuck trying to get North ruler fixed in a believable way. And the North needs to be fixed if Westros is to survive winter with Others, in a believable way.
It makes sense that it's Kevin as he shows up at the trial in the show. Pycell(sp) is killed by the little birds instead.
My tip is big - Jon Snow. Like in the show what was so awful is resurrected Jon was exactly the same as pre-dead Jon. Shouldn't he undergo a transformation more like Lady Stoneheart? That of course wouldn't work with his proposed character arc. For me, that's always been a HUGE problem for GRRM to resolve.
More like dondarion as well. Where they're fixated on finishing the last thing they were doing when they died. So Jon would be hell-bent to attack winterfell so will be obsessed to raise an (undead) army to attack
@@alexmars1511 The difference is that Jon's mind is now in Ghost. It makes his resurrection scenario a bit different, and it's likely Bran will have to get involved.
@@jacobenke7936 Do you think Bran can warg dead things? Is Bran Cold hands, his own monster? Will Bran just borrow Jon for a bit?
I think you're definitely right about Kevan being the one. As well as the fact that I don't think we'll ever get A Dream of Spring, but if George wrote Winds and Dream with the same pacing and density as A Storm of Swords I think you could end it in two. Seriously, Storm is one of the best books I've ever read. So much happens and it doesn't feel like you lose any of the details or world building the other books have. It's brilliantly paced. And if the last two books read like that it could definitely wrap things up in a satisfying way. But if they read like Feast or Dance there's no way.
Sitting here yelling Jon Snow at my phone
He's not permanently dead.
@@blacksuite1 Exactly George is written into a corner of finding a way to resurrect him
Well... stop doing that. It's obviously not Jon as there is an easy way to undo his death. It has to be a death that would be really difficult, or impossible, to take back. Kevan Lannister is the most obvious choice.
@@pieceofgosaThere's not much reason to resurrect Jon yet. He's not special enough for Melisandre.
Aemon can be a force of unity/mutually beneficial communication between the 2 invading targaryens and with Jon
10:10 Little Walder Frey is the Prince That Was Promised.
There is also the pretty big problem, that Genna... well... is a woman. She just can't ride into Kingslanding in a shining armor and take over the counsel, like Tywin did, because this is still the sexist world of Westeros,
And as a reader, it will be really weird, because this sort of random character, that we met once, is in charge in Kingslanding all of a sudden and takes over the small council? Will all the other players just accept that? Kevan had the authority, competence and gender to take over, Genna is missing two of those things.
Carmine with that flawless transition at the start of the video lol
:D
The character is CLEARLY Allar Deem.
Allar Deem never offered a word of complaint.
It’s got to be a PoV character in order for this to make sense. My money is on Kevan
While Kevan might be the mistaken death he was on a PoV because he's about to die. All the pro and epilogue's have new PoV's and all end in death.
I'm not sure who the dead character could be but knowing Kevan's only had his chapter because it's purpose is to kill him makes me skeptical.
What about Maester Pycelle? He probably has a lot of knowledge of Roberts Rebellion. I'm still betting we didn't learned everything about that. From the beginning on we were told that Ned and Robert were the good guys, and Aerys the bad one. But Lady Dustling storys of Brandon makes me think that we don't know the full story.
Hmm. Any idea on what that could be? That would change our view of the rebellion?
I think the main counter to that is that there are a lot of other characters who could also talk about the rebellion, like Varys and Howland. Like Pycell is a good source, but is he essential ?
@@bryceeaston9663 Pycelle could have been the person to recognize if Aegon is fake.
@@reinsaxony4623Especially considering that he would have delivered baby Aegon and would have knowledge of any birthmarks that could identify him.
@@reinsaxony4623 Yeah, that makes sense if a very specific set of characters need that information.
Are there any Lannister Bannermen in King's Landing that would be of a high enough status to act as regent until a member of the family arrives?
Hey Preston I appreciate your content!
I think it may be a Character related to danys half of the world.
Like the poor Sea Captain.
George has expressed difficulty with that area of the story before no?
I actually think it's possible for Kevan to be saved, however it requieres someone checking up on the grandmaester or some of Kevan's own loyalists to show up fast enough to save him from the little birds, which is somewhat unlikely since Varys would guard against that very option, or, even more intriguing, that there's a faceless man amongst the little birds, whose client benefits from Kevan being alive for the time being, and so would attack the others, saving Kevan. But all of that is fanfic work without much basis in the story as I recall it.
Alternatively, instead of a Lannister in charge of Kings Landing as regent, it could be one of the Lannister Loyalists that are already well respected and competent, I'd wager Addam Marbrand, former member of the Gold cloaks, recognised knight and proven commander and leader. Also, as the heir to House Marbrand he is theoretically closely related to the Lannisters because Tytos Lannister's wife was a Marbrand, so he had some traction there too.
Another option is Darlessa Lannister (nee Marbrand), who was married to Tygett, and is thus the aunt of Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion, which could bring her some seniority over them. A widower for several years, Darlessa would have taken charge of Tygett's possessions and holdings (which would be of unknown size, but since he partook in tourneys and was known for his martial prowess Tygett were likely loaded from that, Kevan said Tytos saw to all of his kid's inherritance, and Tygett "tried to be his own man, but couldn't compare to Tywin" which doesn't mean he's a failure, just not as succesful and likely had a minor lordship) which highlights her competence. Additionally, Darlessa would likely already be enroute to King's Landing to look for her missing son Tyrek, or voyaging to Hayford in the Crownlands, as the girl her son Tyrek was married to, Ermesande Hayford, is just a babe, and thus can't rule her own lands (which are likely quite rich, since Tyrek got married to her in the first place) aso Darlessa would rule them as regent in her place (This is not mentioned in the Jaime chapter where he visits Hayford, so it's a really flimsy reason).
However, Darlessa hasn't appeared in the books at all, so would be an entirely new character to introduce as the regent.
Aside from them there's a truckload of loyal lords to take up the reigns, Lord Brax, Lord Prester or Lord Crakehall would be top candidates in my mind.
I thought GRRM confirmed that Pycele's death was premature in an old So Spake Martin.
When?
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobinHi Preston. Love you videos. Can you please do another Jon Connington chapter with The Tyrell Army?
There are a few non-mains whose deaths {and lives} were pretty important. And difficult to rewrite any other way after getting so far in. For example- I can't help but to think of Franz Ferdinand when I think of Quentyn Martell's death. It was so quiet, so far away, so banal...to spark a hugeazz war. Oberyn's son's death changes EVERYTHING for the Martells. He kinda has to die.
Aemonn - needs to explain Dragon Dreams to the reader?
Back are we and
This story is from a few years ago, and if I recall correctly, George gave an update at some point where he said he'd finished a cluster of Cersei chapters that had been troubling him. So he may have already solved this problem.
My guess is Kevan. Maybe George needed someone like him that was close to Tywin and Joanna. There could be secrets to reveal that relied on someone who was around in the past like Kevan to help connect the dots.
One does not simply have regrets...
HE REGRETS KILLING JON
Been a minute; love to see it.
He killed most main characters in the first book. I think that's why he has that feeling to him.
You fools, it’s so obvious. After several rereads the answers is clearly Mycah the butcher’s boy. Read Haereg.
I live in the delusion where Dance actually was the end of Ice and Fire. Jon dies, Dany is re-enslaved, Aegon lands/conquers, and everything else ends up not mattering.
It's Kevan. George said a couple years ago that he was having problems with Cersei chapters.
Isn’t the whole point of the Lannister family that they are so fucked as a unit, mostly due to Tywin, that they’re incapable of treating each other as anything other than extensions of the concept of House Lannister that Tywin believed in more fervently than anything?
Even then, I still do think the underlying reality that they are family shines through. I think to ACOK and how Cersei and Tyron started dancing with each other after hearing Stannis was sailing against Renly not them, or when he tried to comfort her in the same book, she just replies “not you.” Or Kevan extolling Tywin’s virtues to Tyrion in his prison cell because whatever else he was, he was still his big brother. Genna, and the two younger brothers, clearly didn’t believe in that concept as much as Tywin so they have much closer connections with Tyrion and Jaime than their father so that’s why Genna is much warmer with Jaime in their scene. I think if Tyg and Gerion were still around, we’d have even more of those scenes still.
About QUENTYN:
Remember that a portion of Winds is cutoff material of Dance, I believe up to a third. if on that third Quentin was confirmed dead and developed around that, it might not be a so minor change
Ned Stark. He could have switched-off with Daario so that Daario could be Euron full-time.
“Just revive him bro”- D&D
Would't be awsome if George came out and said "The chareceter I was talking about is "time". "I´ve killed so much time, and I regreted because now I wont have enough to finish the story."
Going back very very far, but could it be Viserys? Unambiguous death, and can speak of a lot of the past that others can't?
Doubt it, Barristan Selmy could do that.
It's probably Kevan or Aemon.
Without Kevan, King's Landing is pretty much a free-for-all (i.e. there is no one competent left to help rule).
Without Aemon, a lot of Targaryen history goes, and he died pretty unnecessarily.
@@dante6985or pycelle, he probably delivered Aegon and him more than the others had a very pointless death that really wasn’t needed
@@testcase6997 Interesting thought. I mean... I personally couldn't think of anything leaving Pycelle would be "key" and I didn't think of delivering Aegon, BUT that would be a very specific set of circumstances.
(I.e. the Aegon he delivered could have had black hair, like Rhaenys, and Faegon has Targaryen platinum blonde, so he helps "invalidate" his claim).
@@dante6985 that plus pycelle died in Kevan’s epilogue as an afterthought almost
facts I never saw him as an unreliable narrator out of the simple fact we never get a pov from him and the ones who discredit him one was a spy the other a sellout. It honestly we saw him at the ned of his life we never build
PJ IS BACK FOMOS
I feel like by the time Winds is released; Spring will already be mostly finished. I'm not sure he can write it any other way now. I was yelling Kevan at the screen until you guys finally said his name heh...there are 2 more who could be the oopsiedeath. Like Oberyn, for a "3". But as for Gemma-I think it more likely her husband will be named with open understanding that it is his wife who is the real voice there. If at all. I really want her to survive as her perspective is so much more interesting to me than almost any other. I think there's a good chance that someone religious/absurdish will be next up to die as Hand. I'm fronting a hopeful friendship between Gemma and Queen of Thorns, myself. There's just no real way those two won't feel like soul-sisters.
It could absolutely be Quentyn - "The prince was three days dying" - and that is a Ser Barriston chapter so not likely to be mistaken, then add to that Selmy's internal debate between using fire or beetles to clean the bones before sending them back to Dorne and you pretty much confirm it's Quentyns corpse - so not sure how you can say it is reversible. Even his companions know he is dead and they would not abandon him unless they were sure. Stannis is also an unmentioned option, though his "death" was only conveyed in a letter from Ramsey so certainly no proof of verity there and it could be easily reversed by Martin later on explaining away the message as typical Ramsey lies. There is only one character who unquestionably perished but around whom the entire story hinged - Nimble Dick Crabb!
You clearly haven't seen one of Preston's most famous videos.
He wrote himself into a corner with the frey pie that was promised prophecy
Maybe Jon Con? With the introduction of gray scale the Aegon conquest has a time frame now that can potentially put grrm in a corner
He killed Jon, might regret that
Imagine Stannis become Tommen's regent because he is his "uncle" by Lannisters' standards
Leftfield option: Craster.
There's knowledge of The Others and a relationship with them that has been lost.
Equally Jeor Mormont, clearly had some deeper knowledge of The Others and of Crasters relationship that is lost.
I think Kevan is the most logical answer, but i think it'd also be really funny if it was like- idk Robar Royce or Jacelyn Bywater. these seemingly minor characters actually held the keys to the iron throne somehow