Can you Heat your Shop with a $200 Water Heater? Radiant Floor Heating For My Shop | Allison Customs
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- Опубликовано: 25 дек 2021
- Radiant Floor Heating in my Shop. What parts I used and How & Why I used them. This can be an expensive project, but it doesn’t have to be and it doesn’t have to be overly complicated! Here is my system and I will try to explain why I did what I did.
Parts List:
Supply House # Description Amazon Equivalent *
3x 519602 1" GF 15/26 Cast Iron Pump Flange Pair (NPT) amzn.to/3svjwte
1x HC11-A 11" HydroClaw Expansion Tank Support Bracket amzn.to/3qnTMMr
4x BRB100-075 1" x 3/4" MIP x FIP Brass Bushing amzn.to/3soUonU
2x BRB100-050 1" x 1/2" MIP x FIP Brass Bushing amzn.to/32qGhU6
4x BVT100-NP 1" Full Port Threaded Ball Valve amzn.to/32xxjUX
4x BRT100 1" FIP Brass Tee amzn.to/3mtXrap
10x BRN100-400 1" x 4" Brass Nipple amzn.to/3qfv54W
1x B4F30 30" Stainless Steel Hose (1/2" x 1/2" FIP) amzn.to/32e27dX
1x 40532W 1/2" MIP x FIP Full Port Brass Ball Valve amzn.to/32ezw8k
5x 22223-0000LF 1" SharkBite Ball Valve amzn.to/3sqQsDb
1x U715 1" Sharkbite Disconnect Tongs amzn.to/3sCrmB4
1x VJR100 1" Spirovent Jr. Air Eliminator (Threaded) amzn.to/3msIndm
1x U714 1" Sharkbite Disconnect Clip amzn.to/3FpRTW4
1x U702 1/4" to 1" Sharkbite Deburr & Gauge Tool amzn.to/32jvgnK
2x U464LF 1" Sharkbite x 1" Sharkbite x 1" FNPT Tee amzn.to/33UL8Ob
1x D-502F Digital Hydronic Radiant Floor Thermostat amzn.to/3msL5zv
1x SP-83 3 Zone Pump Controller Switching Relay amzn.to/32xFRuY
8x U140LF 1" Sharkbite x Male Adapter amzn.to/3Jg84Y6 2x U142LF 1" Sharkbite x 3/4" Male Reducing Adapter amzn.to/3FopmjN
7x U260LF 1" x 1" SharkBite 90° Elbow amzn.to/3stcVPS
6x U374LF 1" x 1" x 1" Sharkbite Tee amzn.to/3FoIXjL
6x U020LF 1" x 1" SharkBite Coupling amzn.to/3qopYj1
2x 0121663 LFDPTG-1 3" Pressure & Temp. Gauge (0-50 psi) amzn.to/32jz1tv
3x 107-169 T-540 3/4" Brass Water Heater Drain Ball Valve amzn.to/3ppdDvq
1x 930-612001 1/2" MIP x 1/2" MIP Barstock Hex Brass Nipple amzn.to/3suYHhi
3x 52722512 UPS26-99FC, 3-Speed Pump, 1/6 HP, 115 volt amzn.to/3z1LDl2
1 - 7 Loop Manifold Radiant Floor Manifold 1/2" PEX Tubing amzn.to/3HcahlR
1- 4 Loop Manifold Radiant Floor Manifold 1/2" PEX Tubing amzn.to/3yT7Hy0
The Amazon links represent items closest to what I used in my system if not the same part number.
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We’ll done!!
As a licensed plumber and a hydronic tech there are some things I would have done differently but as has been said elsewhere here there’s a lot of different ways to do this.
Everything you’ve done here should work well and you have left lots of options for heat source changes
Couple of comments:
Don’t sweat about the long loop. 450’ is definitely not optimal but it won’t hurt anything. Basically you wasted a little pipe and one area of floor might be a bit cooler. You’ll never notice it in a shop environment.
If you have trouble keeping it warm on the coldest days you can afford to bump up your water temp a bit.
All boiler systems need a water make up system to allow for micro leaks and pressure drop from air purging. If you don’t want to continually check it manually I always install an anti freeze make up tank. They’re available from any good plumbing supplier and automatically inject a little anti freeze into the system if the pressure drops. You don’t want a water make up valve because it might slowly dilute your anti freeze. One of my customers made this mistake and froze his distribution lines. Very expensive fix!
As for the heat loss calculation. Definitely necessary in a house but an open space like your shop is very forgiving and this will work just fine!!
We’ll done sir!! Now learn to solder and save a ton of money on fittings😀
Thank you! My son in law (who is a plumber in training) saw all of the Sharkbite fittings and Cringed, but also said it all looked good.
That water heater looks brand new there’s not $200? And you’ve got a couple thousand dollars with the pumps and fittings there? Not to mention all the piping on the floor. Made it sound like this was some cheap which is not my new means for hydronic loop😮❤😂😊
Man manifolds are a couple hundred dollars each
Pretty sure a licensed plumber wouldn't refer to sweating as solder. 😁
@@AllisonCustoms I taught myself to solder in 2 days, and my joins are all leak free and look better then professionals ive seen. You can do it :) I just used youtube to learn, there is a great guy called got2learn, follow all his steps, and it's perfect. Just be sure to flux both the pipe and the fitting, he says it, but he says it fast and I didnt catch it at 1st and it didnt work well when I practiced ha
Great Job!!! Would LOVE to see a spring video on how the system preformed during the winter months
In the works!
A friend of mine used a 3 cyl diesel generator and plumbed the floor water through the engine cooling system on his floor heat. heats the floor pretty quickly, and then his gas water heater takes over to maintain... I don't recall all the technicals, but he could switch "zones" to heat the driveway when it snowed. I recall the melted runoff would re-freeze down the street a little and was rather scary to cross, but his driveway was nice and dry, and the workshop was nice and warm!
That is an interesting heat source. Probably more efficient than an electric water heater too!
@@AllisonCustoms Indeed. The engine heats the water quickly, as the generator is under a load (not sure if backfeeding the grid, or what) I just recall he had to have at least one of the zone valves open at all times, as that was the only cooling for the engine.
How about having the generator power the electric hot water heater and having the cold return to the input of the engine?
I would use PEX rather than copper
French drain is the answer to the runoff, it runs into a 5 foot rock drain into the sandy soil beneath that we had put in last summer. I don't have neighbors so it would be a non issue with me anyway.
I was searching for some details on YT about adding a make-up injector and found your project here. Pretty wild as I made a very similar homegrown system! I fortunately can weld and solder so saved a bundle in comparison. I'm also running the old 60gal propane water heater from my house after we upgraded, which is way more efficient and we have a 1000 gallon underground propane tank. My pole barn shop houses my 5th wheel camper, my truck, and mechanics tools and lift, and my woodshop is upstairs. Love this system, and glad I DIYed the subslab insulation and running the PEX before my concrete contractor poured the monster slab. Truly, this is the best way to heat a shop IMO, and my arthritic feet are much happier on a warm floor in the winter!! Great job and it's awesome you shared this. Like you, I really had to piece the knowledge together, but having done so at a very small percentage of the cost I was quoted by contractors let me insulate the building the best way.
Yea, I am very happy I did this myself, and I’m going to learn to solder the pipe for when I make up the system for the final time. Right now it is still somewhat of a work in progress. I recently add Solar to the system and (I THINK) I have the bugs worked out of that, so now just to continue tweaking until my system is as efficient as possible with the available resources.
you explained things so well. my fathers shop has been burning wood for 20 years and i just needed the confidence to switch everything over to the electric water heater. yeah the wood is free, but constant keeping that boiler fed is a lot of work. thank you for the informative video!
Glad I could help!
The original idea was to use a waste oil boiler, unfortunately I just don’t produce the amount of oil necessary.
Check out the current situation - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
I alternate between a home built waste oil boiler and an electric water tank. It takes about 10 gallons of oil to run 24 hrs so sometimes I don't have enough. electric water tank is heating near non-stop so she spins the meter pretty hard. I have a thermostat keep it at 60. cheers
Sounds about like what I was hoping to do. But I probably only produce 50-60 gallons a year
I hope you check your wire size feeding water heater, you are way beyond their ratings. This is an awesome job my friend. Please check that wire an breaker, your pushing it 5500w elements running simultaneously. Two 4500w elements will pull around 36 amps, your wh circuit normally runs on a 30 amp breaker, already exceeded, then bump tat 5500w elements that is about 46 amps.
This is one of the reasons I didn’t explain how I did my wiring, I didn’t want people just wiring everything up on one circuit. Thanks for your concern! But fear not, each element is on it’s own circuit.
I helped a contractor install basically the same system but we installed a wind turbine that produced electricity which powered an electric water heater that heated the shop floor. The water heater and the concrete floor was the main storage system for the wind turbine system to store its heat. This system also heated a hot water coil in his house furnace to help heat the house.
I have checked a few times over the years and have yet to find a wind powered generator that will work with the amount of average wind we get.
The average hot water heater draws 18 amps at 220v. That's about 4000watts. Please let us know what wind turbine creates 4000watts.
I heat my house and my 900 SF garage with my combination boiler. I have one circ pump. I live in a northern zone and it heats both fine. By now you should have had the system long enough to realize you won't need any supplemental heat. What I love is that if you open the garage door, there's not a long recovery time. And working on the floor is nice as you're not freezing your a$$ off.
True, I love that the floor is not ice cold!
I build these setups for a living, mostly use Navien combo boilers for heat source so too few Btu's are never an issue. You did a great job for a first timer! There are many many ways to set up hydronic systems so its pretty interesting how different people solve the problems.
Thanks!
How many issues with naviens do you see with gas leaks and general disrepair?
@@x_____________5550 I would say 19 out of 20 are good, problem free. Of the 5 percent left the internal pressure sensor is the most common part failure. also units with long horizontal exhaust runs collect dirt and will cause a 110 error.
Did the same thing in my 40x60 shop. electric company estimated my first few months, then when they read the meter I had a $1200 or so electric bill. Quickly made a homemade wood boiler and that works much much better and my electric bills are under $40 a month in the winter.
Shocking how much the electric bill can go up, if you’re not prepared ahead of time.
Do you have a link or more information on homemade wood boiler?
@@flip9710 no, just made it work. Bent and welded around 60' of 7/8" x .120 ss tubing inside. Thats what I had laying around at the time. Sucks the heat right out of the wood stove.
@@flip9710 no, just made it work. Bent and welded around 60' of 7/8" x .120 ss tubing inside. Thats what I had laying around at the time. Sucks the heat right out of the wood stove.
You rock for putting this out for anyone to learn. Im building my own in the last couple years and what i found out was to slow down the water flow to increase the thermalcline. (Heat transfer). Hotter water into my floor, 208 degrees, was more efficent and faster recovery than cooler temps. I see this post is dated a little but just want to throw it out there if it wasnt mentioned before. Hope yor garage is working out great for you. I know i love mine!
Thanks for the comment! I spend a lot of time in my shop and truly love it. As for the heating, so far it’s just been expensive! I just recently finished a hydronic solar install and should have a video about the good, the bad and the ugly of that in early 2023. I’m also finding higher water temps seem to recover quicker than trying to run water temps 85 degrees or less. Still playing with it all though.
@@AllisonCustoms what would you consider expensive?
You should not use water that hot 160 - 180°F is what you want. Speed of the flow will determine how well it heats. It will take at least a week to get your building up to temp. These pumps all push water, they do NOT PULL the water. Yes, air bleeder valve should be at the very top of the system. Hearing the pumps making noise is called "cavitating" you never want the pumps to cavitate.
I had infloor heat in my farmhouse. My best buddy use to install and troubleshoot for the surrounding 3 counties. He sold wood burning furnace/outdoor wood boiler. This is what we use to heat our water.
Werzbo pumps are better than the "Grundgy" ones. And they will last longer.
Water heater needs to come on more often and run for a shorter amount of time.
You are going to Crack your concrete. Too hot.
Impressive . Thermal stores work but the numbers need to right.
Well done 👏
Thank you! It’s not perfect, but I believe it is a very good base to be able to build on to further.
@@AllisonCustoms
My project in a log cabin. 4kw of heating for panel radiators ruclips.net/user/shortsgaKeYQAM_ZM?feature=share
I love your video. ima licensed plumber in California learning hydronics and you have the best video on hydronics hands down
Thanks! Have a great day!
Glad it’s not over complicated.
I use a second water heater to preheat the water that goes into the main water tank seems to work pretty good
Nice idea! Thanks.
Just found your channel and this is so cool. I am interested in what you have here. Im going to go back watch more videos now. Great work you have here. Looks like you have a lot of great content I need to watch. Thank you for sharing this.
Awesome! Thank you!
The original idea was to use a waste oil boiler, unfortunately I just don’t produce the amount of oil necessary.
Check out the current situation - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
Thank you for such an in depth video!
My pleasure!
I was lucky as a Kid that we had a heated floor in our small shop in ND. My Dad just kept the thermostat at 38deg F. That was enough to keep the concrete from sucking away your heat out of your feet or when you had to lay under a car. We had a wood burning stove to raise the temp up for working conditions. The floor heater ran on heating oil. We had to dress in long johns and coveralls for the weather anyway so walking into a 38deg shop when its -15 and 25 mph winds outside felt great!
Even at 60 degrees, mine definitely fells great when coming in from outside.
I was able to find a used oil boiler. I also had concerns when the pump was running. The local electrical supply house had 120 Volt indicator let's, that I drilled, and installed into the pump junction box, then tied into the hot, and neutral connections for the pump motor. A quick glance tells me when pump is running! Super easy!
Great idea!
15 years now oil fired aero hot water tank, 30 percent glycol mix 900 square ft winters down to minus 30
Just came across this video on your shop heating and I must say Mate, just down on the farm type so awesome. Designing the heating system with what you had to work with turned out spot on Mate. As a old retired electrical engineer tech here, hats off to you Mate & will done. 🇨🇦🤝🇺🇸👍👍👍💯%
Awesome, thank you!
Check here for current setup - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
seems to work. i dont have water in my wood shop. have coal wood burner. going to try to heat with electric water tank. i did build a boiler system with a gas boiler for my mechanics garage. built a boiler room 150' away with coal-wood & a gas boiler so yes you have given me a good starting point. i have till October 2023 to get working. thank you for ur time
Thanks for watching! I hope you are able to create a more efficient version, but I do like the fact that mine doesn’t require monitoring.
Very good information. Thanks for sharing...
Good job. Force purges with city pressure works the best , did I see an auto fill.. should work excellent 👌
Thank you!
Still working on an auto fill system.
Well done video despite the length. I do want to mention that any similar project needs to start with a heat loss calculation so you can properly size not only the pipes, but the boiler or water heater. Once you know how many BTUS are needed the rest is easier.
Absolutely! I tried to link as many sources for the information as I could in the description.
Man, there is a lot to that. If I ever get to build my shop, I absolutely want radiant floor heat.
It can certainly seem daunting, but I like it when you lay down on the floor to get under a car and it’s warm!
Since you got the heater used, make sure to pull the anode out of the top and inspect it's condition. When that anode disappears the tanks starts rusting out. Don't know if you live in an earthquake area, but if you do, strap the tank to the wall well and switch to flexible connecting hoses. You should have dielectric unions on the tanks, and pumps. Though these closed systems don't seem to corrode as much as open water systems.
I used the same pump on my system and in the end I wish I had purchased a stainless steel model. I used a tankless water heater for the much higher btu output (heating my whole house) which has an inlet screen. The pump rusts and is continually plugging up the inlet. Hopefully your antifreeze helps minimize that. If you didn't use O2 barrier pex oxygen will diffuse thru the plastic and corrode the pump.
In another thread you talked about installing solar water heating. Skip that and just put in more solar PV panels. They cost far less and if you make too much it is far more usable. You can dump the extra power to your water heater or a secondary one, or any other electric loads. I would take the money saved and get a heat pump based water heater. It should pay for itself within a year or two in electricity savings
I don’t have any PV and am not currently considering them due to cost (nearly four times the cost of hydronic) and space constraints (more than 10 times the area required)
I do like the idea of a heat pump, they are just expensive and at least not yet into the budget.
@@AllisonCustoms Are you saying you have found solar water heaters cheaper that PV panels? Or that keeping your current system is cheaper than converting to solar and some other heating method. The latter I agree is cheaper up front. Whether you get PV panels or not, I think your ROI on a heat pump unit will be pretty fast. Electric heat is expensive, even at your pretty low rates.
So can you give us a little update on how this is working? I would be very interested in the costs of your monthly billing? How large is your shop and is it insulated well? Did you by chance put down foam when you poured your concrete? Would do this again?
The shop is 3800 square feet and roughly 72,000 cubic feet - it has R-40 stem walls below frost depth, R-19 walls and ceiling.
I’m working through a solar system now and should have a video soon(ish).
Here is what last season ended up like.
Shop Radiant Floor Heat - How Much did using an Electric Water Heater Actually Cost?
ruclips.net/video/5jO3bHkLhJE/видео.html
I have a much smaller shop 40X38 all walls are r19 and the roof is r19 X2. I keep it about 55 degrees, I drive my truck out in the morning and back inside in the evening on workdays and on and off weekends in North Dakota. So a Double size garage door is opened basically 2X a day for about a minute each time to let the cold in. A very rough estimate is $100-130 a month to heat mine (nov-feb, less for the month or two before and after that I keep it heated). I base that on what my bill was before I put it in and what it is now. I have used it for 9 years now. To plume in natural gas lines and a furnace, I can heat it for about 15-19 years and break even. on just the price to get it all done and I did the water heater myself. In the long run ( if I stay above ground for more than 15-19 years) it will cost me more, but I feel it was worth it. I suspect when I get down the road another 10 years I may not be puttering around my shop anyways. Great video wish it was around many years ago when I did mine, there were pretty much none on RUclips back then.
I’m kinda in the same boat, if I wasn’t making money out there, I wouldn’t be heating it at all. Just work/play when I want to and on warmish days. The grandkids are taking up more of our time now, so I’m out there less every year already. That may change again as I retire, then I may want that gas boiler again.
Nice neat job, well done, I am a power engineer the only change I would suggest raising the pressure relief to 30 psi operatin pressure could easily reach 15 psi. Just to save potential mess.
Maybe go for a seriously larger Expansion Vessel thats properly 'Air Charged' inspecting the Air Charge on same and charging same when the System has Zero hydronic pressure on the Underflow Circuits ... maybe even set up your own bespoke ISOLATION system so you can Drain and relieve pressure of that Expansion Vessel on that side of the system without having to drain down or depressurise and underfloor circuits... reckon itwould even come in handy WHENEVER an Expansion Vessel goes South...
Thanks, I’ll look into that.
Raise the temp in the tank to around 140F to start and add a mixing valve to temper the water to 110-120 going to the floor. You won’t need the timer on the pumps anymore. Wrap the tank in insulation and all exposed pipe to reduce heat loss. Good luck…
Thanks for the tips! I’ve played with the temp and have been looking at adding a balance valve as you suggest. Thanks for the comments.
@@AllisonCustoms He is correct, You need a mixing valve and 120 degree water going out to the floor.
What is the logic of heating and then cooling the water?
Yes, you can get another 5 degrees of heat that is being lost to a corner of the shop, if you insulate the outside of the hot water tank. It all depends on where you want to put your heating money. Hot water tanks are not insulated very well at all. Pumps will get noisier fi you have piping on the outlet that is too large for the size of the pump body and the outlet nipple ID. Stay within the manufacturers out flow sizing table for this.
Why insulate the tank if the tank is inside the space you are heating? And why mix in cold water rather than turning down the heater’s thermostat?
Great video 👍 Have you thought about hooking that up to a outdoor wood boiler?
I considered it, but I really don’t have the space for it and the wood supply. Also, I really want a hands off heating system. Also been looking at a waste oil boiler.
I find this very interesting as I have a garage roughly 90x30 ish. Cement block construction with cement floor, wood ceilings 10ft.
Not insulated, and yes this is the problem.
I have installed a large wood hot air furnace, and yes I can keep it comfortable in there if enough wood is being put though the furnace, even with the drafts that are a nuisance, when the wind is blowing, which is nearly 90% of the time in winter. Coldest it gets on average around here is -10ish C, which is 15 F.
The house on the other hand has a combo oil/wood boiler. which I use wood only when near or below freezing. The difference in heating the air in the garage and keeping the water hot in the house system, is like night and day. I would almost guess that if the hot air system was in the house, it could possibly take 4 times the amount of wood to heat the house, and I will add without much success on regulating it.
I know your system is a no mess system, so to speak. Many people do not like the bother or the mess of wood. But as a go to on the colder days/weeks of the winter, I can see where 3 cords of wood could pretty much heat your garage for the entire winter, with very little output from the electric hot water.
I know if I was to build another house/garage I would still have the combo system, but would have it between the garage and house, in its own section, heating both. I have had many different heating sources in many different houses, and I can tell you by far the best so far is hot water heat. The wood combo is a savior as oil becomes more expensive. The added bonus of the wood boiler is, it does not take much if any more wood to heat the house if the temps go down to extremes. To an extent, of coarse if very cold for an extended period it does require a bit more, but very efficient.
I definitely like the in floor heat, I think if it was possible (cost no object kinda thing) I would just run a new gas line to the shop and switch to a natural gas boiler. unfortunately there is about $25k worth of driveway that would have to be removed just to get access to put in the line, let alone the cost of the line and a plumber to do the install and tie in.
@@AllisonCustoms Get a bid from a Directional Boring company. They can bore a gas line under the concrete.
Great project. Heated shop in the cold months are a nice addition.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching, it’s a work in progress but I definitely like it better than a freezing cold shop.
Check here for current setup - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
If you have enough load you can up the wattage of the elements in the tank, also you should upgrade the drain valve in heater tank to a brass boiler drain valve.
I upgraded to 5500w elements which helped a lot. What does a boiler drain valve do/provide?
@@AllisonCustoms With a second 30amp circuit you could rewire the bottom element to operate independently (simultaneously) with the top element. That would take your original 4.5kw water heater to an 11kw. :) But if you didn't wire for nearly 60 amps (either two independent 30amp circuits are a single 60amp) that's dangerous.
I find most water heaters have a garbage drain valve that restricts flow and fails with little use. That said, if you aren't having a problem with it, I'd leave it alone but be prepared to replace it (I use a 3/4 ball valve) if you do open it - it may not close tight ever again.
@@Sylvan_dB I’ll check the valve at the end of the winter, and that is probably a good idea to change out to a ball valve. I did retire so that both elements work independently.
The hardest part right now is finding two 30 amp breakers - “supply chain issues”
😀
@@AllisonCustoms You can tell when a guy did not watch the whole video
Wattage does not go up with load
Personally I use Pex and ProPress fittings. I know people poopoo SharkBite fittings but I've never had a leak in the 5 years I've used SharkBites (have maybe 20 throughout my house). In your case, its probably beneficial considering your planning to expand your system in the future. Anyway, looks good and thanks for making this vid and sharing.
I agree. I have just ordered my solar system and I will now be able to dismantle parts of the original system to add my new heat source. Video coming soon!
Sharkbites are known to leak
Not allowed inside a closed wall in Michigan codes.
Compression rings are the way to go. They will expand during a freeze but shrink after a thaw. No leaks!
I think new code does allow for them inside walls, but I’m not sure I trust them that much yet. But using them with the idea of future changes is an easy decision.
You might want to think about adding dielectric unions between the copper and hot water tank, you're trying to keep from having electrolysis occur on the unistrut between the copper and the unistrut. This will completely isolate the possibility of having an electrolysis occur
Thanks!
Aren't those brass fittings and Sharkbite fittings a dielectric union?
Antifreeze is good at preventing corrosion.
A mixing valve while being an added cost would save your tank from the damage that repeated expansion and contraction causes which is directly a result of wide fluctuations in the water temperature. My tanks have all failed due to cracks forming in the glass lining near the opening for an element or the hot outflow. In larger boiler systems the welds actually fail in the boiler tubes if the water temperature changes too quickly.
I think that is in the plan with the solar system.
@@AllisonCustoms - add in hydraulic separators too.
You have to have excessive btus to spare in order to make a mixing valve work.
@@rj.parker Not so, one would set the supply loop temperature differential so that it is maintained within a prescribed tolerance thereby reducing damaging expansion and contraction fluctuations in the heat source. The heating loop is brought up in temperature slower which is not an issue for a large thermal mass such as a concrete slab. This essentially works by controlling the amount of return water re-entering the supply loop until the heating loop is up to temperature or the demand for heat is turned off. The idea that one needs to pulse hot fluid through the heating loop to even out or balance the distribution of heat is incorrect. The continuous circulation created by the pump in the heating loop will ensure the temperature is within a few degrees when a mixing valve is in place.
I live in LA,CA ,we dont need to heating shop here, sometimes it is hot weather in Feb. here save money, save time!
I like your winters for sure, but the CA (Sunshine) Tax is a killer!
Nice video for a DIYer install of this system. As a plumber my only recommendation is to replace the steel unistrut with wood. That or install brass insulative pieces between any place where copper is touching steel. When copper is attached directly to steel you get electrolysis. That over time will cause the copper to wear away causing failures at the copper/steel junctions. I hope this information helps. Have a blessed day and thank you for the video.
Jason B
Thanks for the recommendation! I didn’t realize that a the steel strut could do that. Be Blessed!
@@AllisonCustoms You can coat the connection with liquid electrical tape.
Good idea!
In colder climates we use either a 50/50 glycol mix or an antifreeze type coolant. No Steam created and the 50/50 mix tends to hold heat better than straight water. This also prevents freezing.
Thanks for the info.
Straight water has much better heat transfer than a glycol mix. A glycol mix is less efficient and should only be used when absolutely necessary.
True, but the freezing conditions here do make it a requirement- for me.
Very bright guy.
Thank you!
I have this same set up and also it works well I’m in northern Canada it can be expensive to run in the cold
As power is high in the north…
That just makes it worse.
It’s expensive here, but very functional!
I use one of them thermostat plugs (kt3100) and im fairly certain you can switch from Celsius to Fahrenheit by holding mode button for a few seconds
I bought a second one and you are right, the newer one does switch.
Here on the west coast all water heaters need a earth quake strap around the water heater to the wall. Looks good.
Probably a very good idea!
Brilliant!
Thanks!
Wow, you certainly did your homework on your project. I like most people who are watching this video am a DIY guy so this was very informative. I helped my father in-law replace the heaters in his garage which was done in 2001 but he never put the antifreeze in it so helped him and learned much through hands on. We live 30 miles south of the Canadian border in NE Washington and Idaho border so the temp drops well into the -25 to -35 due to our elevation(3000ft above the valley). My home doesn't have the floor heating, its a modular home with a 4ft crawl space. I'm wondering if I could put this system in my flooring. If you know of videos on how this is accomplished please send me a link. Thank you for a well documented, interesting and most of all Not boring video. NE Washington State
Glad this video was helpful, I don’t really know of videos about installing the pex in a already existing home. My thinking is if there is a crawl space then it can be done.
The original idea was to use a waste oil boiler, unfortunately I just don’t produce the amount of oil necessary.
Check out the current situation - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
Do you have your crawlspace insulated? Vapor/plastic barrier, up in the joists, etc..?
I’m on a slab
You can send hot water to fan coils in your home (or radiators). Check for video on "hydronic heating" if you would like to explore the idea.
did u analyze propane as an option? Great job and comments thanks
Thanks for the question. I did look at propane, and it would definitely be less than electric, but I really don’t have a good location to have a tank (either above ground or below). Nothing would be properly accessible.
Looks Great to me !
Thanks! A work in progress!
Check here for current setup - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
Great explaination; would be interested to know the running costs, or even the cost per Kwh in your next of the woods.
I also do this for a living, only ever seen a few electric element tanks as the heat source, just too expensive to run.
Cheers from Oz.
Expensive compared to natural gas, if it's available, but not so much more compared to the price of heating oil or propane, once you balance for actual useful BTUs. Possible an air-water heat pump feeding a heat exchanger loop into the tank could save money down the road
Currently our electric is .1001 cents per kWh. During January and February which tend to be our coldest months of the year, I was seeing about 18 hours a day of run time. This is really not efficient enough to be a long term solution, I have a hydronic solar system ready to be ordered for next winter.
JK brown is spot on. Although solar with storage tank will be extremely efficient IMO, I do have a heat pump water heater I used for my radiant system, made by Rheem. I use it for warming the floor, standard heatvpump for actual air conditioning. To be honest. It bearly keeps up in heat pump only mode set at 120F, 70F for floor temp. Heat exchange done with a Taco Xpump block. Basically it's a heat exchanger with 2 pumps built in with controller, nice neat package. At 9.7c/kWh, cost about $13/month extra from our average $5/month water heating needs. For his size floor and heating exclusively, maybe a pool heat pump would be better. Same cost as my dhw HP, but high btus overall. Interesting to see his solar setup in the future!
Any thoughts on using a tankless electric water heater? since the return temp of the anti-freeze is pretty high (compared to domestic water source), the temperature rise wouldn't be that great. And also as the floor slowly warms up, the return temp of will also rise, which then means, the outgoing temp be warmer as well. I'm thinking of do this to avoid my huge gas bill which is around $300/month in the winter.
@@CrapTennis Electric tankless uses huge amps to achieve results. Usually 125 amps of 240 vac or 30,000 watts. His electric resistance water heater started out at 4500 watts and was way undersized. Then he paralleled two 4500 elements to achieve 9000 watts. Still not quite enough so he changed to two 5500 watt elements in parallel for 11,000 watts. Nothing magic, with straight electric heat you get 3.41 btus per watt. Expensive to run. A better solution is a heat pump water heater if electric is your only choice. They still have electric resistance to supplement the refrigerant based heat pump but the heat pump can get over 10 btus per watt. So it can be 1/3 the cost to run.
I had a RE client who converted a lot of studio apartments to a very similar system. The tenants paid the electricity...and he dismantled the old steam building boiler. Ultimately he admitted that it cost about $1 an hour to operate. (Chicago rates) The do take a LOT of electricity.
True, not cheap to run.
Lot of work you did, looks well laid out. Now that you are done, look at Taco X pump block, about 10% of the plumbing and 2000% less complex. Sure, you know your system bc you installed it, but an HVAC tech or plumber may not have the ability to understand what is going on. I used Tacos pump block and wow, easy peasy.
I’ll take a look at it, thanks for the tip!
I admire you're determination. I assume you live in Canada. I'm in Ontario.
No, New Mexico USA😀
My boss and I built a shop for a guy three years ago now it was 80 foot wide by 150 foot long truck shop he use geothermal for heat he drilled 20 wells And we had to go back last year to fix a panel that they put the forklift through but I asked him how much it cost him per month to heat the shop. He told me $65 a month to heat that big shop. So if you can do geothermal that would be the way to go.
I’ve looked into it a few times. In my case I just don’t have the room to drill holes or do a shallow long trench. But I agree if someone has space that would be a great way to heat and potentially cool a shop.
How did you decide which parts to do threaded and which to do copper + sharkbite?
I wanted to do as many sharkbite fittings as possible, but when running a one part after another that would likely never need replacing (ie. valves), I chose to go the cheaper route of using threaded fittings.
Thanks for the question.
Jeff
thought you did a nice job of setting up the system. Since you have 7 inches of concrete you are of course going to need to run and run and run the water heater. one thing I did not hear you talk about was how much insulation you put under your slab.
Good point, I certainly should have mentioned it. I used a fairly expensive thin(ish) R10 under the slab and the perimeter of my shop has an R30 ICBs.
@@AllisonCustoms perfect!
Too many think that’s optional, but the downward loss can be huge!
I agree insulation is critical. I used 2" Styrofoam in my basement floor and it works great. I did not use any in my shop floor, basically because I did not take the time to research how it would affect the load capacities. I am heating both with a 180K BTU outdoor wood furnace. But the shop floor never warmed up even after running it all day. I installed a water to air heat exchanger in the shop, and now I can feel a difference in a few minutes.
Would it work if you turned the pump flow down to match the recovery rate of the Hot Water Heater for the desired water temperature? The whole thing could be controlled by 1 or more line voltage thermostats.
I’m really not sure. I think that could work, of course that would force the water heater to run full time. Of course that may not be changing anything.
1/2" PEX fittings have only about 3/8" passages. You could go over your floor with an infra red temp indicatior.
True
It's been a while since worked with radiant heat. In 1971 I worked for International Harvestor and we were having problems with tractors overheating in temperatures of 110 to 120 F. We had less trouble when we put nothing but water and water pump lubricant in the radiators. I later learned the design spec was for operation to 107 degrees F or less.
If you still running the water heater at 125 F I don't think anyone is at risk of getting scalded on your floor. So running the temperature of the water heater up to at least 140 F and raising the lower pump off and pump on the temperature of your pump controller should increase your thermal efficiency by increasing the temperature differential between the fluid and the floor and hopefully reducing the time the water heater runs per degree of heat in your shop.
There are only a few things I remember from college The first day of Irrigation Class Professor Dudley Barefoot worked out examples showing why we couldn't afford to run inefficient equipment. While in principle it is true in the case of a boiler for your garage it doesn't lead to ruin as quickly as it can farming on a 4% return humongous debt.
I have changes planned to improve the efficiency, but it was nice to have a heated shop this winter.
the current thinking is to feed water no hotter than 80-85° into the slab to begin with if you can help it. So the rate of flow of the pump then becomes important to get the BTUs into the slab that match the heat loss.
You sure did a great job on this video, I just am so concerned about the electric bill. Solar would be nice, but we all know that winter when we need the heat the most, is the season we get the least out of solar…
I’m working through a solar system now and should have a video soon(ish). Here is what last season ended up like.
Shop Radiant Floor Heat - How Much did using an Electric Water Heater Actually Cost?
ruclips.net/video/5jO3bHkLhJE/видео.html
You could add a heat pump water heater to the system to reduce the electric bill quite a bit, but the pump itself could be somewhat pricey. I would leave the water heater and have it set to run and maintain a minimum coolant temp for the very coldest parts of the year where the heat pump may struggle. If I remember correctly A heat pump uses about 1/3 or 1/4 the amount of electricity to produce the same amount of heat as a resistive heater such as a water heater, and heating a shop that size it wouldn't take long to get your money back from the heat pump.
Thank you for putting this content together. I would just let the Water heater run continuously when heat is demanded vs. start stop. You want the watts of heat produced in the Concrete not the water heater. As the water sits in the water heater warming up, heat losses go into the air. Hotter the water in the water heater = greater losses. As long as the water temp coming out of the water heater is greater than the concrete, let it flow. The entire system would run less time.
You are right! And that is the way the system runs today. Had to learn it on my own though😀
Check here for current setup - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
I haven't read all the post. Be sure and change the relief valve on the heater to a 30 psi relief. If the stat on the tank where to fail, and stay on.....and they can. The relief would protect your in floor tubing, by not sending 210 degree glycol into it. Relief valves are 150 psi or 210 degrees. Also you lose 30 percent of your btu's to glycol because of poor heat transfer, but if you are afraid of long power outages, wise choice.
Yea, we loose power out here WAY to often. Not typically for more than 3-4 hours, but occasionally overnight. Our lowest temp on record is -20F, but typically we don’t drop much below -10F at night and then warm back up into the 30’s during the day.
Great video if not sure about hot water tank should of check magnesium rods up on top of tank.
Thanks for the tip! I plan to pull and replace those at the end of this season just as a precaution- but you’re right I should have done that before putting it in use to begin with.
Just came across your video, your supply co. Should of sold you a copper press tool , not so sure the antifreeze will work well w all those shark bite fittings. No pipe dope hope used used leak lock or a paste teflon tape. As. Previous mentioned. Heat Loss is the first place to start.
Thanks for the tip!
I just started reading about that type of fitting. As I finalize the system and it moves to its final resting place I’m going to look into those more.
The expansion tank looks to be in the wrong position, do you have a check valve from the fill water supply from the house so you don’t contaminate the hose drinking water with antifreeze ?
There is no water supply to the shop. This is a closed system, but I am looking to add an auto fill unit at some point.
HW tanks are frequently used to heat home additions. A cheap way to go, but they are a kludge, and fail early especially when used where the duty cycle is high (like the northeast).
The original idea was to use a waste oil boiler for heat, turns out I don’t produce anywhere near enough waste oil.
Nice ! 👍
Thank you!
My question is before you installed the pipe did you install insulation on the ground then the pipe then concrete cause if not you have a huge amount of heat loss cause the ground is going to take the majority of the heat before the slab will
Yes, there is insulation under the slab and the foundation perimeter. You are right, without the insulation most of the heat put into the slab would be drawn away into the ground.
If you fill from the bottom it helps push all the air to the vent at the top and it won't trap nearly as much air in the system to have to bleed out later
Good idea!
What kind and model is the temperature controller was that you used
D-502F Digital Hydronic Radiant Floor Thermostat - amzn.to/3msL5zv
Wanted to get one of those timers you were using to get the system up to temp. I don't see it in your parts list. Could you share a link or the brand/part number for that?
Sorry. Thanks for letting me know it was missing.
here you go:
amzn.to/3JMIHx9
I have considered doing hot water floors yet I think I might just opt for heating cables. I am still doing research about them. I would like direct solar option. With around 3000 square feet I am guessing a 10 to 30 kwh solar array would be more than enough? Using used panels at .25 cents per watts shipped. With aditional parts and the wire we are looking at around 12.5 for the cost. One thing that can be done as well is using those same panels to run the cooling in the summer time. EG4 makes a direct connect 2 ton mini split for around 1700 dollars. Like I said I still need to find the right wire and how it would all be connected and ran. While most of these in foor heat systems require 120 or 220v. I do not want to add inverters, batteries and or other things on to the load. Though there is this well type inverter that can can run 100% batteryless or with the grid. I also think there is a battery-less all in one inverter as well. Which could be an option as I really only need and want to provide additional heat to work with the EG4 mini splits which I think I am going to install.
Interesting concept, I’ve never heard of this type of heating before. Do you have any links or suggested web sites for information?
Running both heating elements and upgrading them to 5500 watt, did you have to upgrade to a 50amp breaker or has the 30 amp held up?
Two 30 amp, each element is on their own.
Not to be harsh, so just an FYI....
All 3 of your pumps are installed 'reverse flow'. In most hydronic systems you want the pump intake at the bottom and the discharge at the top as this will naturally allow any air entrained to migrate vertically through the pumps, mitigating the potential to airlock a pump and potentially burn it up(probably why they are noisy). And always remember to vent any accumulated air from the motors(loosen screw in the center of the motor until only liquid comes out and no air).
Also, I usually pull the internal check valves out of the pump(if they are supplied with them) if your system flow design does not require them. This lowers the frictional coefficient through the pump, increasing flow or allowing the use of a lower speed to save power.
Your hydronic flow layout could have been laid out much better, but hay, your just learning. On the bright side, you put your deaeration valve at the top of your system which is correct.
Thanks for the input, I hadn’t thought about but orientation (other than what the manufacturer says not to do). I went and looked at my home system and sure enough they are mounted vertically with the outlet up. I see what you are saying about the air migration. I am planning to move some components as my shop continues to get built out and I will definitely take your design ideas into account. Thanks for the feedback!
So quick question, (I’m sure long answer) - if I go out and turn the pumps around (reversing the flow) that would A) help the pumps - air migration? B) would that change anything else in the system?
Over all looks nice for diy, not a fan of shark bites though for permanent work. I heard you say you are using 30 gallons of antifreeze, I’m gonna assume Sierra or like. Just a heads up antifreeze is not good on steel or iron or rubber gaskets, so your circs if iron will take a hit, the gaskets and seals will too and the w/h tank. I saw you intend to replace the heat source possibly with solar soon, so all that should not be an issue.
Love to hear back on how it’s doing after a bit!
I’m planning an update video for the end of the season. Thanks for the info.
@@AllisonCustoms looking forward to it, you obviously care about the details, so it will be cool to see what you come up with!
I'd add a second timer/relay(kt3100).. because those things are only good for a few thousand cycles of load cutting.. having two in line set to different temps will create a backup.. since it won't be cutting the load unlike the primary one.
Good tip! Thanks.
What is square footage of your slab? What was the coldest temp of your slab before hooking up this system? Is your plan to add solar water heater to this system and run that when it’s sunny and switch back to electric at night? How are you thinking of switching between the two?
Currently I’m heating about 3000 sqft of slab. I will be using solar and a 2 coil, 800ish liter storage tank. This will let me use the the same solar for both the shop during the winter and also my swimming pool during the late spring and early fall.
Great work Sir for a non professional. Couple things if I may interject
NR 1 - change your expansion vessel location - current location is prone to blocking . Use one of the outlets for filling your system to connect the vessel.
Nr 2 - I would advise to use a mixing valves just before your UFH manifold- generally speaking you don't want the water to be hotter than 45 Degrees C.
Nr 3 - use air heat source pump in conjunction with your water tank (use the water tank as a battery- as we call them buffer tank), Im pretty sure your electric bill will be significantly lower. Air source pump take 1 KW produce 4 Kw in return all good up to - 25 degrees C, and produce 45 degrees C all day long.
Thanks for the recommendations! Where would you suggest moving the expansion tank to? Higher up the wall? Thanks.
@@AllisonCustoms You can leave the expansion vessel in the same location , however it is not recommended to connect it to the bottom or air, dirt separator. I would use one of the ports you used for filling your system to connect the vessel.
Ok, so just move the connection point. I see - the separator could be causing a clog over time. Got, thanks!
Maybe add 2 more water heaters and defiantly fix the dielectric issue. I went with a big shop heater on propane. But rarely drops below 30 F here. Running all night is expensive i would imagine. 60 degrees is fine if you keep busy. But good job,, anyone that does there own work is doing good.
Thanks! It has been expensive, but it was life changing to have heat in the shop all winter. Never going back to the cold! Just gotta make it more affordable!
I feel like so many people overthink this stuff. A tube heater would accomplish the same thing and would be comparable in energy consumption. The only time I feel this would be better is if you have a massively large shop. I mean like industrial sized.
Thanks for watching!
The original idea was to use a waste oil boiler, unfortunately I just don’t produce the amount of oil necessary.
Check out the current situation - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
is this a regular electric water heater? if yes it us its 4 -5 times less efficient than heat pump water heater or heat pump heating. unless is extremely freezing outside
It is, I’ve recently been looking into a hybrid version for that reason.
The original idea was to use a waste oil boiler, unfortunately I just don’t produce the amount of oil necessary.
Check out the current situation - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
Just wanted to know Why not two mini splits and insulation. Would that be a more efficient system.just asking.
I’m not really sure, it could be. I really wanted the radiant floor, because now when I lay on the floor in the middle of winter, it’s nice and warm.
I agree. At the end of all this work, it’s an electric resistance heater with a hydronic distribution system. Although the heat is nice, the bills are going to be huge.
IMO the answer is comfort. If he wants efficiency and comfort, I would go with an air to water heat pump and PV to feed the radiant.
Did you ever think about buying a second hot water heater and running in tandem or building a hot water solar panel, there are good ideas online. Thank you.
I have thought of so many options, the best would be to run NG to the building.
As for solar:
Hydronic Solar Heating for the Shop
ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
Thanks for commenting and watching!
Suggestion: ask arround to your local HVAC companies for a used 100-150 gallon non functioning waterheater. It's use is to store the heat medium used to actually supply the floor when piped inline
Thanks for watching!
The original idea was to use a waste oil boiler, unfortunately I just don’t produce the amount of oil necessary.
Check out the current situation - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
A system with a reservoir tank makes it easier to purge air and to take samples to monitor your glycol levels.
Thanks, I keep making small changes getting everything better with time.
Check here for current setup - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
outside of the cost of the water heater and the pex in the floor, can you tell me what the cost of the system was for you to build it? I really want to design one so I can add hot water from a wood fired furnace to run a smaller section of the house and garage. My DAKA wood burning furnace add on had plenty of black pipe that I can wrap a large coil of copper tubing around and feed a baseboard radiator system for my unheated rec room.
A list of everything I used is in the description, with part numbers. I purchased from Supply House and used them again this year for another project. Pricing has really changed a lot in the last year, so I would suggest looking around to verify you get the best price you can.
When you're running ethylene-glycol-and-water mix thru the pumps, what is the minimum temperature that the liquid can be at?
My mix is for -20 F That is the coldest temp on record for my area.
@@AllisonCustoms Thanks for your prompt reply. I asked the question because the technical literature on the UPS-99FC states that the minimum liquid temp is 35.6F/2C, presumably because this is slightly above the freezing point of pure water. Of course, an EG-water mix freezes well below this temp, but Grumdfos does not consider this fact when setting the min liquid temp.
Nice install!
How many sq ft is your shop?
3800 plus the balcony
@@AllisonCustoms
That’s cool. My shop is 48x66 and I’m planning on using a 80 gallon Marathon water heater, so I should be fine. Thanks for the great video! I look forward to watching more of your videos!
A BTU is a BTU. The water heater will create approximately 15,500 BTU per hour. Whether you run the pump constantly with a lower temp or on/off with a higher temp, the BTUs going into the floor are exactly the same. Amazing how many people can't grasp this concept. Good thing you saved $1000 on the water heater so you could spend $3,000 on extra crap you don't need. Great job.
The original idea was to use a waste oil boiler, unfortunately I just don’t produce the amount of oil necessary.
Check out the current situation - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
People will pay good money fore this work and it is very professional
Thank you!
When you upgrade the tank go with a 50 gal and wrap the current tank to help it hold heat.
Thanks for the suggestion, I ended up using a 108 gallon tank. Video on all of that coming soon.
frickin professional snobs
No comment
@@AllisonCustoms indeed
Grundfos are great pumps
I agree!
is it a 120 volt or 220 water heater-maybe i missed it,what size wire did you run to that beast...couldn't you save some money running lp unit? its either 25 or 50 amps your drawing ..no?
It’s 220v and each element draws 5500 watts and each element is on its own circuit.
how many BTUs is the hot water heater? you might consider an on demand tankless water heater; that will give you 12 gpm @ 120F.
It is currently running two 5500 watt elements on 220v, so approximately 37,500 btu - not nearly enough. The water heater works, just not an efficient method.
I should have a new video out early 2023 discussing my new solar system and the highs and lows of hydronic solar.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
Hi there you've done a good job from what I've seen but the only difference I did was take your hot water line and split it so half goes into the floor and the other half goes right back into the hot water tank that way your tank water will always stay warm and you will use less electricity to heat the water. that's the only different thing that I did and it works great. Just my 2 cents worth. good job though.
Interesting, what temp are you running your water heater at?
Actually I was using a small boiler but on my new shop it will be like yours with a hot water tank. I will split the outline with the hot water and feed half back into the tank , it just helps the mix of lower temp water reach the hotter point faster and it shouldn’t matter what temp you’re at, it works great, Mike
i would have really used soft copper piping for in-floor heating. yes, it costs more. but you are not going to have very good thermal transfer from the pex. on top of all that, just due to the length and diameter of tubing you are probably basically just swapping the water in the floor rather than "dumping the tank" you just have too little heated water for the body of water that is in the floor. so do this, try letting the heater heat up. Run the pump for a few min(3 or 4) but more frequently (with more heated mass already in tank will help quickly heat the rest)
Interesting and certainly an expensive design! I wouldn’t even hazard a guess at the cost and I’m not sure what would happen over time to copper embedded in concrete.
You don't want copper coper imbedded in concrete as it will start galvanic corrosion on the copper from the lime in the concrete and then the floor will be useless in about 5-10yrs when pinholes start
pressure tank is to trap air in it with fluid entering from the bottom
I’m working on a few changes.
Check out the current situation - ruclips.net/video/_mR7S4N28oY/видео.html
Hoping my btu requirement for my 40x60 shop will be less, like for a shop half it's size since I built it with a five foot deep insulated foundation wall. We'll see
Where do live that a 5’ deep wall was needed? That is DEEP - we had a place in the mountains a few years ago that needed a 4’ deep foundation and I thought that was a BA hole. Anyway, good luck and if you have it available, skip all this extra stuff and run a natural gas line. It is absolutely the cheapest energy source, including installing enough solar to do the job.
10 degree delta is actually optimal for in floor but your heat exchange theory is generally correct
Thanks for the comment. I’m still playing with the system and I’ve added a new piece this season. As I work out the details, I’ll be posting another video.
No problem my man...Love these videos. I'm a hydronics nerd lol. So with the slab you have a high mass heat emitter so it's gonna throw heat amazing as opposed to say fin tube where you're running 180 degree water through a low mass heat emitter where you want that 20 degree Delta T so your getting adequate space conditioning.
Towards the end of the season it was working pretty good, now I just need a better controller for all of the variables going on.
with that set up I hope you have a 50 amp breaker with 6 ga wire to unit
8 ga and two 30 amp breakers- one for each element