You'll get better performance if you insulate the walls of the enclosure. I can get air temps of 55-60c in my Lack enclosure with only the bed set to 120. A big 100 watt ceramic heat lamp and the bed at 160 can see temps approaching 90c. For insulation I use metallic bubble insulation sandwiched between two plexi sheets. I used to secure it to the inside of the chamber walls using foil tape, but the portions close to the heat lamp began to deform from the radiant heat. The lamps are commonly used for terrariums, for keeping pet reptiles warm. You can either buy light fixtures and wire (or get your electrician to do it for you), or you can utilize cheap clamp lamps and secure them to some Vslot extrusion using Tnuts.
At last someone understands that a heated chamber is the only real solution to warping. It's not about bed adhesion folk. It's about the residual stress and strength of the final print. There are a few heaters designed for reptile enclosures that can potentially be used for this.
Don't you have to sacrifice controlling it with g-code in this case though? I don't think that's a deal breaker for most people but it would go against his project criteria.
Been waiting for this for a while Michael and glad you're still working on it. As an engineer I really don't think 3D printers can reach their full potential unless they can print high temp materials. I bought a second Ender 3 and I'm trying to put it in an enclosure with the electronics outside. Haven't gotten far yet, but think it'll be handy when completed. Videos like yours are helpful for giving me ideas and I very much appreciate it.
@@theKashConnoisseur Have you made a heated chamber for it? I'm trying to print Acetal, it's really hard without a heated chamber and a higher temperature bed
@@theknois yep, I built a heated chamber capable of reaching into the low 120s C. Gotta respect material properties. If the plastic needs a heated chamber, gotta use a heated chamber. If you can't, use a different blend of plastic that doesn't need a heated chamber.
@@theKashConnoisseur Could you share some of your design to see how we could build a enclosure capable of reaching these temperature ? I am wondering how to protect the electronic ( bl touch ) from the heat.
@@vdiallonort The long and short of it is, I didn't really protect the BL Touch at all. I added some aluminized tape to reduce the amount of IR the probe would adsorb from my heating system, but I left it exposed to the air temps. Basically, I'd do my bed leveling without the entire chamber heated, just the bed. Then I'd bring the system up to printing temps and start a job, only using the BL Touch to zero the Z axis (using TMC 2130 drivers to detect X and Z limits). And then I'd manually adjust the first layer height to compensate for the inaccuracies of the BL Touch at high temperatures.
I'm successfully printing polycarbonate with a bed temp of only 85C and a non-heated build chamber. Grab a sheet of polycarbonbate, and cut it to size to use as your print-bed. Polycarbonate, PLA and PETG filaments stick perfectly to Polycarbonate bed, and I get no lifting. It is a cheap solution to high temp filaments and prints lifting. I just enclosed my printer with a cardboard box :) For heating the chamber, I was thinking of trying some of the products that are out there for heating lizard enclosures - mains powered, safe and designed for area heating.
Lemme guess, Polymaker PC Max or another PC +? They are co-polymers, not pure PC. If memory serves, PC Max is PC + PBT which makes it a lot easier to print, but also less heat resistant. If you don't need a bed temp over 100c and a nozzle temp over 300c, it's definitely not pure PC.
Hi Michael, thanks for all the great videos you made, keep them coming! As for the encasing idea, I built one of 12mm plywood and a sleek Ikea glass door for my CR-10s- mainly to muffle the noise and control the ABS odors. I also liked the idea of having no air drafts for a better warp control. Since my wooden box is fairly air sealed I reach chamber temperatures of 40°C just by setting the bed temperature to 85°C (which works fine for ABS and PETG so far, with super-hold hairspray I barely get the parts off the glass plate) Now, here is my concern: the cheap stepper motors have usually just a "class B" insulation. This means that the maximum core temperature (the copper coil inside) is specified for 130°C which can be reached already at 50°C ambience temperature. The "over the thumb" rule says that every 10 degree above the max core temp you slice the life of the motor in half. My current idea is to cool at least the X and the Y motors with some 40mm fans I have laying around as they get really hot. One of the reasons is that I installed damper plates against the noise, the rubber element acts as a heat break. In the long run (when I build "my perfect machine", like we all do :-) I am thinking to go to a cube core-XY where all motors are outside the print "chamber".
I built a similar one for my CR10 and you need almost 200 watts to slowly get warm. It's the acrylic that is the problem. Too much heat just leaves through it. I tried a 250w heat lamp and damaged the acrylic long before it was 30c inside. I don't like using a fan. I'm not an expert but moving air can be a printing problem too. I also don't like hair dryer type heaters either. Too much heat and unreliable motors make a fire hazard quickly. I have a 400 watt convection plate type heater is nearly 600 mm square x 17mm thick and sits vertically on the side/back. So no fan. It still takes 20min. to heat to 40c. But it heats up quickly from there. ( Its heavy). Consider safety and what-if scenarios please. Thermal switch or thermostat plus a line voltage control is what I use. (Smoke alarm and fire suppression are great ideas.) About the acrylic: It melts and will start sagging after 60-70C. I know 1st hand. Polycarbonate is good with 90C. Fire proof insulation on some walls and top will reduce your wattage needs and warm up time.
I use tevo tornado, with hotbox fabric with fireproof inside, next troùble was stepper motor became skip when hot.. any idea? I use SKR1.4turbo, it has free 3 spares fan port, is it okay if i add 4010 fan add the bottom stepper?
I have a huge rool of ceramic fibre hi temp kiln lining I might try that ceramic fibre as a way to hold heat in and it's also flame proof I'm thinking of making a enclosure with ceramic fibre walls and I dont really know what to use to actually heat it tho
Nice design. I have made a similar chamber with car insolation pads, to isolate the champer, - like Matt. It gets 60oC when I print PETG, when the chamber is fully cloased, so when I print PLA, I ruin the prints, if I forget so open the door in the front... Thanks for sharing the new development in the Marlin 2.0 fork :-)
For your next try I'd suggest searching for PTC heating elements, they can come with just the PTC cartridge or with a finned radiator. Ali Express has many. The beauty of PTC is that their resistance increased as they reach their max temp making them very safe.
I built a powdercoating oven once out of 1x1 steel square tube, double walled with sheet metal and insulated with fiber glass. The inside temperatures would reach over 450 degrees F. The temperature was controlled with an SSR and cheap amazon control unit. The heat came from used oven elements....... Worked like a charm.
Loving the MCM top Michael! Another great video buddy! Thank you for continuing to put so much effort in to make these so informative and so satisfying to watch. All I ever hear our customers talk about is how your videos convinced them to buy a printer or take on a new project! Keep it up buddy! Thank you for all of your hard work, inspiring the community to go further! 😁
Maybe make it more airtight by adding some accordeon sealing to the moving gantry? Anyways you could also use the heating bed to heat the chamber, make the chamber heating action a fan blowing on the bed. Properly insulating the chamber is a big plus to not needing a huge amount of power. Your little heater is powerful enough , assuming the peak energy loss at desired temperature is lower than its output, which is the whole point of proper insulation. I have done the exact opposite once by using a relatively small peltier element to cool down a rather big chamber to -40°C. In both cases it just takes a while, so the bigger heater is mainly to speed things up
If you added a second layer of bristles that weren't as long as the first ones that come down, say, halfway, you should be able to cover up that little triangle where the extruder motor is moving, and this will create a much better seal.
Suggestion: Grind the twist drill with cutting edges that are inline with the centerline of the drill. That will remove the hole material with a scraping action instead of trying to lift a chip that causes the drill to grab. Add a small amount of water on drill and material for cooling. Have drilled plastic using this method for years. When modifying drills like this they will be dedicated to plastic use.
i love your videos. Regarding ABS and a heated build chamber: I print ABS and ASA routinely and I do not have a chamber heater. In fact, I generally vent temperature to keep it below 50C. I use PEI sanded with 600 wet/dry. The stick is so good that I use alcohol to help it release. Bed temp is 90C (reported) and the printer is a Raise3D N2.
Personal i would have used an open top box under the printer (similar to what you did in the upper part. so that the printer sits on top of the heat source. with with the heaters mounted inside then a separate power source, but wire the temp controls to you mainboard, to control when the heaters comes on and off. Heat rises so you shouldn't need any fans to circulate the heat.
I’d be interested to see how much heat your losing through the bristle system you designed but also through the side panels as you didn’t appear to seal them in any way. Another possible solution would be to replace the bristles with bellow covers like we use in industrial machines, these can be easily cut to size and are available in lightweight versions so wouldn’t add any noticed drag to the Y axis. I’d seriously look at sealing the panels and door if possible as the more heat you can keep in the enclosure the better, you’d more than likely be able to run a lower powered heater too.
The main issue here is termal insulation. 1) Aluminum frame touches the outside air as well as heated air, so (being a good heat conductor) it acts like a radiator. 2) Acryl is not a good insulator. It can help to keep the air inside, but not to keep it warm. 3) Brushes are ok, but you probably want a fiew layers of those. (or a foldable rail cover) Built my chaimber with wood, some 20mm foam-like insulator sheets(not sure about an english word for it) and a foam gun to close the gaps. Requires no additional heating other than heated bed and the nozzle radiator. In fact it needs cooling for keeping the PTFE tube alive.
When is the future installment comming as talked about in this video with your build chamber heater and high temp plastics. I would love to hear more about it, atleased give a update and thoughts video on where you are going with it.
If you haven't try a high wattage silicone AC heat bed. Keenovo makes a bunch. You can stick it onto a large heatsink if you want to get the heating effect you desire.
NASA has a guide on how to print engineering grade filaments using "off the shelf" components. It might be neat to see what they are doing to heat the chamber up.
I'm struggling to find this, can you offer any specific search terms or even a link? Thanks Edit: disregard that I found it :D ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170000214.pdf
That heat gun for heating the enclosure looks like the only prommising enclosure heater. The silicone mat might do it but atleased with the hot air gun you can make the air hot and flow to ventilate it outside for those nasty fumes.
Ceramic heat lamps work well, and NASA modified a Lulzbot to print PEEK and PEI using an array of 50w halogen lamps controlled via firmware. They even wrote a nice little paper detailing the work that went into the setup.
Hello Teaching Tech, Kay3D released a new true coreXY conversion kit for ender 5 plus. with it the design of an air tight enclosure is straight forward. with this kit, an actively AC heated enclosure to about 60 degree and a direct drive extruder + AC heated bed it is possible to build the ultimate ABS speed demon for large prints for about 1100 usd. I think it will be an interesting video and I seriously considering purchasing this machine with the kit
I like your door latch. Solves a problem I will hit shortly with my Hypercube Evo. Heating the enclosure is an interesting challenge. I've been printing ABS for almost seven years on nothing more than passive heating. I'll have to see what happens with the larger enclosure on my HEVO. (build volume will be 300x300x500)
I basically used this concept for my ender 5 plus for the last 6 months. Its been great, but there is one big issue that may not have been caught before uploading this video. With this design the nylon brushes can cause print failures. To prevent this some brush "plows" need to be installed on the x gantry. Without these, the brushes can get caught in the belt and pulled into the motors causing layer shifting.
The fan from the heater may be blowing air over your print. I put my cr10 in a cardboard box, disabled the part fan and print and at 250 with a 95 bed. My enclosure gets 75-90f depending on ambient temp. I'm getting good results but the bed takes 15 minutes at least to get to 95.
I'm working on enclosing my printer to passively warm it, but I'm not going to use any extrusions and just join them with 3D printed joints on the corners. It will be large enough to hold 4 spools of filament to keep warm/dry. I'm going to apply thermal film to the plexiglass to help keep in the juices. The printer is a Replicator Dual clone.
awesome idea with modifying a hot airgun... some of the one from solder rework stations might be perfect, hehe you could even make it ducted to each corner with little restrictors to even out the air flow from each outlet :)
I went a similar route you did the first go round. 2-50w nozzle elements,heat sinks and a fan, only got about a 10c boost.scrapped that idea an put a 1200w space heater element ran from an external P.I.D control, the thing barely has to run to keep up.
A VORON is a amazing 3d printer but so little people will build one because of how high end the materials are for it and overall cost. The Hypercube and Piper 2 are pretty popular because they are a fair bit cheaper mostly because they are not using linear rails. Also the newer style DIY infinity Y axis printers are gaining in popularity with a endless Y axis like the White knight and Piper Infinity. I can imagain quing a entire project in 1 STL file and hitting print then comming back in 3 days to have ALL the parts required for the project AMAZING!.
Just a few thoughts: using an aluminium frame is not the best choice, because aluminium is good heat conductor. That part is actually working like a cooling radiator. Acryllic is not so much, but the surace area is huge, and without insulation and heat reflection its also a kind of week point. I really like how it looks like, but imho a more simple and much cheaper design could achive an inside temperature that you might even want to move all the electronic parts outside from the chamber, and replace the plastic parts as well for something that can stand high temperature. Actually this part seems more tricky to me rather than how can i build an insulated box which can hold like 80-110 °C
You might consider insulating some of the sides that you don't need to see through so you can avoid losing all of the heat coming off the heaters and the bed. You might also consider a separate power source for the chamber heater, so that you can run multiples. I haven't been 3D printing in a while, but the two I have are too small for things I want to do so I have been seriously considering the ender 5 plus. My concern was difficulty with enclosing it, but you've helped me with that. I don't really have a way to cut components though - have you considered making and selling a kit?
Idea. How about the heater units in cheap food dehydrators. They typically heat to around 70c. You may be able to tap into the heaters own thermister, thus powering the unit from mains while controlling the heat via Marlin. It's an idea I've been meaning to try myself when I get to build a chamber my highly modified cr10 (MKS 1.4, 24V, Hemera, braced...). Great content by the way.
I tried your bristles idea; my Plus did not like. It could probably be better done with that trapezoid attached to the extrusion. As an alternative, I recommend using a sheet of silicone as a curtain, if your belt decides to eat bristles.
I know this was a while ago but you dodged a bullet with that heater, it came with the moai 200 and the temperature variations it caused by its wide ranging lower and upper values caused a load of problems with the prints… that and it had to be replaced twice!
Going with hairdryer or heatgun might not be a good idea, as those have inside heating elements that can get red glowing hot and cause a fire or something, also it will be noisy, You probably just need to use some mains heater cartridges of power like 500W and some bigger heatsink like someting used on older AMD CPUs.
I wonder if instead of the bristles if you could have used an accordion like system. similar to window ac units. obviously a different material since I am sure those aren't meant for 1000's of cycles and such. just a thought. awesome video. might do something of the like for my ender 5 plus. mostly to keep my son from playing with it since currently he is too young to understand he shouldn't
First, I would like to wholeheartedly thank for all your efforts and dedicated time offered to so many of us who are struggling and new to this craft. I recently got an Ender3 would yu recommend a case around if we are only going to use PLA? and is it possible to build a case like you have on the Ender5? thanks a lot for all your sharing and caring!
Ender 3 doesn't require an enclosure for PLA. Only really for ABS but to print that on the Ender 3 it needs many upgrades. People do however make LACK enclosures as seen on thingiverse using Ikea furniture so there's nothing stopping you making one in that design around the entire printer with extrusions instead.
Any issues with the bristles getting caught in that idler bearing on the left side? Seemed while you were moving it manually, the bristles wanted to go straight into the space between your belt and your idler.
I keep seeing these videos and wonder if you could vent an old hair dryer/heat gun into the enclosure and utilise a control circuit of sorts to control a thermostat switch.
Are the stepper motors okay to work in those temperatures? My steppers get really hot when working in my enclosure, but have only got the enclosure up to 50c so far ( still a work in progress )
All of the steppers are outside of the enclosure with this set up. Z is kind of at the bottom but the bottom is not sealed. I may add a heatsink if it's getting hot.
NASA 's solution for this is to have a special enclosure surrounding the motors, and they force air through it to keep the motors cool while printing stuff like PEEK.
R values are similar but the service temperature is much higher. Consider a higher r value material for the top and any side that you don't want to see through. I thought of grid ceiling tiles as a decent choice. Be safe.
They usually don't get hot enough for a real heated chamber. Perhaps one could be modified to ignore it's thermal switching stuff, but at that point it'd work like a weak hair dryer. So it'd probably be more effective to use an actual hairdryer.
I believe that. I have a food dehydrator that I printed walls for to dry filament. I put a temperature sensor at the bottom and it reads ~65C when cranked up to max. But that is a smaller area to heat for sure.
I think a heating lamp inside the chamber would be perdect. You can easily control with a thermostat, zero noise, and its even gives an awesome red glow.
I wish there was a SK-Go HT version, with a small build volume (Prusa Mini build plates?). Fully enclosed with heated chamber, capable of printing engineering filaments.
I’m using the official creality enclosure bag. It’s like a tent. But it has the mylar insulation built into it. I am just using the heat from the Ender bed no extra heater. No problems with ABS. Maybe you are loosing too much heat through that brush top and sides? I’m interested to see your hairdryer idea in action though
That heater experiment was rather predictable, the Ender 5 already has a 220W heated bed - if it can't keep the chamber hot enough, a tiny heater made from a 40W hotend heater cartridge won't be able to do diddly squat. Instead of a hairdryer, you should take a look at personal space heaters - they are tiny, cheap and around 200-400 watts, and also designed to run for longer times.
Ive done this I used pparts from a 240v space heater off banggood, admittedly I used a 300w PTC model, but could only pump out air heated air upto 75oC, so Ill be watching to see what works on top of that
I could only maintain temps around 70-73oC max with a 500w 240V bed attached to 6.3mm 350x350mm alu plate running 120oC at same time though I haddnt insulated the chamber yet, but if the heated air cant get to 95oC prob not going to work. also I bought a spectacle frame heater to try and that was worse than the PTC space heater parts
@@TeachingTech I was also thinking you would need something over 300W for that size chamber and leakage, so maybe 500W controlled might give you enough headroom. I also think you need a short length inside brush on the gantry to block that Vee that opens up when it passes the cover brush.
1000watts it is...how about a strip heater with fins in a box with ssr question is how to ramp the heat percentage load so you don’t use what you don’t need out of 1000w, power related 80% duty only is ideally the case, I am guessing around 6.5 amps on a 120v circuit
I cringed a bit when you showed off your hotend heater. That thing needs a local thermistor watching it. The one you put up top would not know if the chamber heater went into meltdown. In my industry, large wire-wrap resistors are connected across mains (typ 120V) to help keep outdoor equipment enclosures dry. Those things can get blistering hot. The design is a hollow cylinder and some even have fins cast around them.
I just realized... do you have custom fixtures on the ends of the x gantry, where it interfaces with the belts, pulleys, and the motor? They look different from what I have on mine, and I'm wondering what purpose they serve
Love the build. My question is, are you going to do a review on the Ender 5 Plus? Can the "Plus" be enclosed also? Thanks for your video's an your time.
Thanks for the video. Where should I connect the extruder fan when adding a chamber heater? In part 2 of this series the extruder fan is connected to HE1. Here the chamber heater gets connected to HE1.
Sorry for butting in with a somewhat unrelated note, but I respect your knowledge and opinion. I have been following your channel and used a lot of the info for my Ender 3, but now I'm about to buy a new printed to up my game a bit. My choice is between the Ender 5 Plus and the CR 10 V2, and I just can't make up my mind. Would you have any thoughts on that problem?
Great work as always! BUT, Would a Peltier board work? You could install it halfway through the chamber and electronics, cooling one side, heating the other
I had a couple on hand but the rated voltage was wrong and my research told me they wouldn't have the power (although probably better than what I achieved here).
Glad the Ender 5 is still getting upgraded! Do you have a link or some contact info for the guy Matt that sent you the pics of his chambered printer with the nylon top that confirmed your idea? I am really interested in how he's mounted the power and logic box on the side there. Not a lot of videos or information from people having moved brains out of the bottom box, and half of that again for those that have kept the box but re-positioned it outside the frame.
Have you set up the mains silicone bed yet? I have a 500w 11v mains with heat sinks on it that will reach 250c, but need to distribute the heat into enclosure. Really hoping you have a follow up on this.
I run a number of XYZ Davinci's (modified). They get to 50-58c which is hot enough even for large items. 100c would seem too high for internally mounted steppers?????
forgive my ignorance... but if you are doing ABS do you not want a completely sealed chamber due to the formaldehyde release... and the bed typicial needs heating to the glass temperature for most filaments so surely you already have the correct temperature heat source heating the chamber? EDIT: As for the stepper motors getting to hot... why not water cool them?
The bed will be at temp, the nozzle is at temp, but in between the part will be cooler. The shrinkage deforms the part. Unfortunately the heated bed doesn't heat the whole chamber.
@@TeachingTech But as we all know heat rises, so your brushed top let's all the heat escape as it has too many air gaps. If you use another heat source below that will also escape the same way unless you use a completely sealable chamber.
Glad to see the M141 heated chamber support work we implemented being used by the community!
You'll get better performance if you insulate the walls of the enclosure. I can get air temps of 55-60c in my Lack enclosure with only the bed set to 120. A big 100 watt ceramic heat lamp and the bed at 160 can see temps approaching 90c. For insulation I use metallic bubble insulation sandwiched between two plexi sheets. I used to secure it to the inside of the chamber walls using foil tape, but the portions close to the heat lamp began to deform from the radiant heat. The lamps are commonly used for terrariums, for keeping pet reptiles warm. You can either buy light fixtures and wire (or get your electrician to do it for you), or you can utilize cheap clamp lamps and secure them to some Vslot extrusion using Tnuts.
At last someone understands that a heated chamber is the only real solution to warping. It's not about bed adhesion folk. It's about the residual stress and strength of the final print. There are a few heaters designed for reptile enclosures that can potentially be used for this.
Don't you have to sacrifice controlling it with g-code in this case though? I don't think that's a deal breaker for most people but it would go against his project criteria.
Been waiting for this for a while Michael and glad you're still working on it. As an engineer I really don't think 3D printers can reach their full potential unless they can print high temp materials. I bought a second Ender 3 and I'm trying to put it in an enclosure with the electronics outside. Haven't gotten far yet, but think it'll be handy when completed. Videos like yours are helpful for giving me ideas and I very much appreciate it.
I got my Ender 3 printing PC and small items in Ultem 1010 PEI. If you are getting stuck or just have questions, drop me a line.
@@theKashConnoisseur Have you made a heated chamber for it? I'm trying to print Acetal, it's really hard without a heated chamber and a higher temperature bed
@@theknois yep, I built a heated chamber capable of reaching into the low 120s C. Gotta respect material properties. If the plastic needs a heated chamber, gotta use a heated chamber. If you can't, use a different blend of plastic that doesn't need a heated chamber.
@@theKashConnoisseur Could you share some of your design to see how we could build a enclosure capable of reaching these temperature ? I am wondering how to protect the electronic ( bl touch ) from the heat.
@@vdiallonort The long and short of it is, I didn't really protect the BL Touch at all. I added some aluminized tape to reduce the amount of IR the probe would adsorb from my heating system, but I left it exposed to the air temps. Basically, I'd do my bed leveling without the entire chamber heated, just the bed. Then I'd bring the system up to printing temps and start a job, only using the BL Touch to zero the Z axis (using TMC 2130 drivers to detect X and Z limits). And then I'd manually adjust the first layer height to compensate for the inaccuracies of the BL Touch at high temperatures.
I'm successfully printing polycarbonate with a bed temp of only 85C and a non-heated build chamber. Grab a sheet of polycarbonbate, and cut it to size to use as your print-bed. Polycarbonate, PLA and PETG filaments stick perfectly to Polycarbonate bed, and I get no lifting. It is a cheap solution to high temp filaments and prints lifting. I just enclosed my printer with a cardboard box :) For heating the chamber, I was thinking of trying some of the products that are out there for heating lizard enclosures - mains powered, safe and designed for area heating.
Great idea for the heater. Just pick a UL listed model with an over-temp protection device.
Lemme guess, Polymaker PC Max or another PC +? They are co-polymers, not pure PC. If memory serves, PC Max is PC + PBT which makes it a lot easier to print, but also less heat resistant. If you don't need a bed temp over 100c and a nozzle temp over 300c, it's definitely not pure PC.
@@theKashConnoisseur Pure PC prints fine with a bed temp at 85C, but only if the bed itself is polycarbonate. The Nozzle temp is 310C
Hi Michael, thanks for all the great videos you made, keep them coming!
As for the encasing idea, I built one of 12mm plywood and a sleek Ikea glass door for my CR-10s- mainly to muffle the noise and control the ABS odors. I also liked the idea of having no air drafts for a better warp control.
Since my wooden box is fairly air sealed I reach chamber temperatures of 40°C just by setting the bed temperature to 85°C (which works fine for ABS and PETG so far, with super-hold hairspray I barely get the parts off the glass plate)
Now, here is my concern: the cheap stepper motors have usually just a "class B" insulation. This means that the maximum core temperature (the copper coil inside) is specified for 130°C which can be reached already at 50°C ambience temperature. The "over the thumb" rule says that every 10 degree above the max core temp you slice the life of the motor in half.
My current idea is to cool at least the X and the Y motors with some 40mm fans I have laying around as they get really hot. One of the reasons is that I installed damper plates against the noise, the rubber element acts as a heat break. In the long run (when I build "my perfect machine", like we all do :-) I am thinking to go to a cube core-XY where all motors are outside the print "chamber".
Mighty Printer Mods
I built a similar one for my CR10 and you need almost 200 watts to slowly get warm. It's the acrylic that is the problem. Too much heat just leaves through it. I tried a 250w heat lamp and damaged the acrylic long before it was 30c inside. I don't like using a fan. I'm not an expert but moving air can be a printing problem too. I also don't like hair dryer type heaters either. Too much heat and unreliable motors make a fire hazard quickly. I have a 400 watt convection plate type heater is nearly 600 mm square x 17mm thick and sits vertically on the side/back. So no fan. It still takes 20min. to heat to 40c. But it heats up quickly from there. ( Its heavy). Consider safety and what-if scenarios please. Thermal switch or thermostat plus a line voltage control is what I use. (Smoke alarm and fire suppression are great ideas.) About the acrylic: It melts and will start sagging after 60-70C. I know 1st hand. Polycarbonate is good with 90C. Fire proof insulation on some walls and top will reduce your wattage needs and warm up time.
Great post, thank you.
@@TeachingTech have you considered glass for the walls instead of acrylic? Might be able to handle the higher temps better.
I noticed that and will apply thermal film to see how much it will help.
I use tevo tornado, with hotbox fabric with fireproof inside, next troùble was stepper motor became skip when hot.. any idea?
I use SKR1.4turbo, it has free 3 spares fan port, is it okay if i add 4010 fan add the bottom stepper?
I have a huge rool of ceramic fibre hi temp kiln lining I might try that ceramic fibre as a way to hold heat in and it's also flame proof I'm thinking of making a enclosure with ceramic fibre walls and I dont really know what to use to actually heat it tho
Nice design.
I have made a similar chamber with car insolation pads, to isolate the champer, - like Matt. It gets 60oC when I print PETG, when the chamber is fully cloased, so when I print PLA, I ruin the prints, if I forget so open the door in the front...
Thanks for sharing the new development in the Marlin 2.0 fork :-)
Is it ok for the motors to run in those temps? im running a similar setup.
For your next try I'd suggest searching for PTC heating elements, they can come with just the PTC cartridge or with a finned radiator. Ali Express has many. The beauty of PTC is that their resistance increased as they reach their max temp making them very safe.
Thanks I will look them up.
A quick google tells me you are spot on. I've ordered a 500W one that will fit inside the chamber where I have the existing heater. Fingers crossed.
@@TeachingTech
Glad you found something, PTC's are pretty easy to work with so it should not be a problem.
I built a powdercoating oven once out of 1x1 steel square tube, double walled with sheet metal and insulated with fiber glass. The inside temperatures would reach over 450 degrees F. The temperature was controlled with an SSR and cheap amazon control unit. The heat came from used oven elements....... Worked like a charm.
Loving the MCM top Michael! Another great video buddy! Thank you for continuing to put so much effort in to make these so informative and so satisfying to watch. All I ever hear our customers talk about is how your videos convinced them to buy a printer or take on a new project! Keep it up buddy! Thank you for all of your hard work, inspiring the community to go further! 😁
i know this is old as hell but i smiled when i saw you wearing a mighty car mods shirt. That shit made my day.
Using a step drill bit with a straight flute will help making holes in thin materials easier.
Maybe make it more airtight by adding some accordeon sealing to the moving gantry?
Anyways you could also use the heating bed to heat the chamber, make the chamber heating action a fan blowing on the bed. Properly insulating the chamber is a big plus to not needing a huge amount of power. Your little heater is powerful enough , assuming the peak energy loss at desired temperature is lower than its output, which is the whole point of proper insulation. I have done the exact opposite once by using a relatively small peltier element to cool down a rather big chamber to -40°C. In both cases it just takes a while, so the bigger heater is mainly to speed things up
If you added a second layer of bristles that weren't as long as the first ones that come down, say, halfway, you should be able to cover up that little triangle where the extruder motor is moving, and this will create a much better seal.
For thin PC or acrylic a step drill is perfect.
Yeah was gonna say that as well. If you don't have a step drill, start with a 2 or 3mm drill bit and work your way up
I rushed it and I paid the price.
@@TeachingTech Another thing is to drill it with a board underneath.
Suggestion:
Grind the twist drill with cutting edges that are inline with the centerline of the drill.
That will remove the hole material with a scraping action instead of trying
to lift a chip that causes the drill to grab. Add a small amount of water on drill
and material for cooling. Have drilled plastic using this method for years. When modifying
drills like this they will be dedicated to plastic use.
i love your videos. Regarding ABS and a heated build chamber: I print ABS and ASA routinely and I do not have a chamber heater. In fact, I generally vent temperature to keep it below 50C. I use PEI sanded with 600 wet/dry. The stick is so good that I use alcohol to help it release. Bed temp is 90C (reported) and the printer is a Raise3D N2.
Personal i would have used an open top box under the printer (similar to what you did in the upper part. so that the printer sits on top of the heat source. with with the heaters mounted inside then a separate power source, but wire the temp controls to you mainboard, to control when the heaters comes on and off. Heat rises so you shouldn't need any fans to circulate the heat.
I’d be interested to see how much heat your losing through the bristle system you designed but also through the side panels as you didn’t appear to seal them in any way. Another possible solution would be to replace the bristles with bellow covers like we use in industrial machines, these can be easily cut to size and are available in lightweight versions so wouldn’t add any noticed drag to the Y axis. I’d seriously look at sealing the panels and door if possible as the more heat you can keep in the enclosure the better, you’d more than likely be able to run a lower powered heater too.
The main issue here is termal insulation.
1) Aluminum frame touches the outside air as well as heated air, so (being a good heat conductor) it acts like a radiator.
2) Acryl is not a good insulator. It can help to keep the air inside, but not to keep it warm.
3) Brushes are ok, but you probably want a fiew layers of those. (or a foldable rail cover)
Built my chaimber with wood, some 20mm foam-like insulator sheets(not sure about an english word for it) and a foam gun to close the gaps. Requires no additional heating other than heated bed and the nozzle radiator. In fact it needs cooling for keeping the PTFE tube alive.
Which temperature you get inside the chamber?
@@theknois 50 celsius inside when its 6 outside.
When is the future installment comming as talked about in this video with your build chamber heater and high temp plastics. I would love to hear more about it, atleased give a update and thoughts video on where you are going with it.
If you haven't try a high wattage silicone AC heat bed. Keenovo makes a bunch. You can stick it onto a large heatsink if you want to get the heating effect you desire.
A full Klipper explanation would be fantastic
NASA has a guide on how to print engineering grade filaments using "off the shelf" components. It might be neat to see what they are doing to heat the chamber up.
Thanks great suggestion.
I'm struggling to find this, can you offer any specific search terms or even a link? Thanks
Edit: disregard that I found it :D ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170000214.pdf
yeay, new video! *HAPPY*
That heat gun for heating the enclosure looks like the only prommising enclosure heater. The silicone mat might do it but atleased with the hot air gun you can make the air hot and flow to ventilate it outside for those nasty fumes.
Ceramic heat lamps work well, and NASA modified a Lulzbot to print PEEK and PEI using an array of 50w halogen lamps controlled via firmware. They even wrote a nice little paper detailing the work that went into the setup.
i guess a bellow setup instead of the bristle will work better (and safer)
Seriously great info! I love the detail. You live nothing out. Thanks.
Hello Teaching Tech,
Kay3D released a new true coreXY conversion kit for ender 5 plus.
with it the design of an air tight enclosure is straight forward.
with this kit, an actively AC heated enclosure to about 60 degree and a direct drive extruder + AC heated bed it is possible to build the ultimate ABS speed demon for large prints for about 1100 usd.
I think it will be an interesting video and I seriously considering purchasing this machine with the kit
Excellent design. Well done,
I love the fact that I’m wearing the same shirt right now.
I like your door latch. Solves a problem I will hit shortly with my Hypercube Evo.
Heating the enclosure is an interesting challenge. I've been printing ABS for almost seven years on nothing more than passive heating. I'll have to see what happens with the larger enclosure on my HEVO. (build volume will be 300x300x500)
I basically used this concept for my ender 5 plus for the last 6 months. Its been great, but there is one big issue that may not have been caught before uploading this video. With this design the nylon brushes can cause print failures. To prevent this some brush "plows" need to be installed on the x gantry. Without these, the brushes can get caught in the belt and pulled into the motors causing layer shifting.
The purple colour of the edges would suggest your clear plastic walls are not acrylic (PMMA) but polycarbonate or something similar
This is true, they are mix of left overs. Easier to just say acrylic for those following along.
@@TeachingTech of course.
The fan from the heater may be blowing air over your print. I put my cr10 in a cardboard box, disabled the part fan and print and at 250 with a 95 bed. My enclosure gets 75-90f depending on ambient temp. I'm getting good results but the bed takes 15 minutes at least to get to 95.
Can you please do Ender 5 plus modifications
For heating the chamber try a few reptile heat bulbs.
I'm working on enclosing my printer to passively warm it, but I'm not going to use any extrusions and just join them with 3D printed joints on the corners. It will be large enough to hold 4 spools of filament to keep warm/dry. I'm going to apply thermal film to the plexiglass to help keep in the juices. The printer is a Replicator Dual clone.
2:05 - I would have been cursing up a storm XD
awesome idea with modifying a hot airgun... some of the one from solder rework stations might be perfect, hehe you could even make it ducted to each corner with little restrictors to even out the air flow from each outlet :)
I went a similar route you did the first go round. 2-50w nozzle elements,heat sinks and a fan, only got about a 10c boost.scrapped that idea an put a 1200w space heater element ran from an external P.I.D control, the thing barely has to run to keep up.
Finally. I have been waiting for this for some time. Thanks Michael. As always great upload. Any chance you plan to build a VORON???
Perhaps next year but no promises.
A VORON is a amazing 3d printer but so little people will build one because of how high end the materials are for it and overall cost. The Hypercube and Piper 2 are pretty popular because they are a fair bit cheaper mostly because they are not using linear rails.
Also the newer style DIY infinity Y axis printers are gaining in popularity with a endless Y axis like the White knight and Piper Infinity. I can imagain quing a entire project in 1 STL file and hitting print then comming back in 3 days to have ALL the parts required for the project AMAZING!.
Just a few thoughts: using an aluminium frame is not the best choice, because aluminium is good heat conductor. That part is actually working like a cooling radiator. Acryllic is not so much, but the surace area is huge, and without insulation and heat reflection its also a kind of week point. I really like how it looks like, but imho a more simple and much cheaper design could achive an inside temperature that you might even want to move all the electronic parts outside from the chamber, and replace the plastic parts as well for something that can stand high temperature. Actually this part seems more tricky to me rather than how can i build an insulated box which can hold like 80-110 °C
Nifty little hack/fix :) Experimenting like this is always fun :)
Thanks, I was waiting for this!
You might consider insulating some of the sides that you don't need to see through so you can avoid losing all of the heat coming off the heaters and the bed. You might also consider a separate power source for the chamber heater, so that you can run multiples.
I haven't been 3D printing in a while, but the two I have are too small for things I want to do so I have been seriously considering the ender 5 plus. My concern was difficulty with enclosing it, but you've helped me with that. I don't really have a way to cut components though - have you considered making and selling a kit?
Idea. How about the heater units in cheap food dehydrators. They typically heat to around 70c. You may be able to tap into the heaters own thermister, thus powering the unit from mains while controlling the heat via Marlin. It's an idea I've been meaning to try myself when I get to build a chamber my highly modified cr10 (MKS 1.4, 24V, Hemera, braced...). Great content by the way.
I use passive chamber and not have any problems to print large ABS parts, frame of printer inside chamber so hot that I can't touch it.
Nice project! Don’t forget to include ASA in your testing. Useful for prints exposed to UV
I would think that installing some high temp insulation foam and sealing the edges of the acrylic would b e a worthwhile investment.
Great video series. Also great MCM shirt.
I tried your bristles idea; my Plus did not like. It could probably be better done with that trapezoid attached to the extrusion. As an alternative, I recommend using a sheet of silicone as a curtain, if your belt decides to eat bristles.
I know this was a while ago but you dodged a bullet with that heater, it came with the moai 200 and the temperature variations it caused by its wide ranging lower and upper values caused a load of problems with the prints… that and it had to be replaced twice!
Nice shirt mate!
Dril forward with a 3 mm dril than drill backwards to not crack the acrylic
Going with hairdryer or heatgun might not be a good idea, as those have inside heating elements that can get red glowing hot and cause a fire or something, also it will be noisy,
You probably just need to use some mains heater cartridges of power like 500W and some bigger heatsink like someting used on older AMD CPUs.
No hair dryer please or we will be reading about it in the news
You could probably use an old AMD CPU as the heater 😉
try a spade bit for drilling through acrylic mate, otherwise she'll crack out to some degree every time
I wonder if instead of the bristles if you could have used an accordion like system. similar to window ac units. obviously a different material since I am sure those aren't meant for 1000's of cycles and such. just a thought. awesome video. might do something of the like for my ender 5 plus. mostly to keep my son from playing with it since currently he is too young to understand he shouldn't
Nice work! Have you had any issues with bristles getting caught in your belt/pullies?
Not yet but I will be making some covers like the example shown by Matt.
Heat in the build chamber along with motors in it will permanently damage the magnets in the stepper motors.
First, I would like to wholeheartedly thank for all your efforts and dedicated time offered to so many of us who are struggling and new to this craft. I recently got an Ender3 would yu recommend a case around if we are only going to use PLA? and is it possible to build a case like you have on the Ender5? thanks a lot for all your sharing and caring!
Ender 3 doesn't require an enclosure for PLA. Only really for ABS but to print that on the Ender 3 it needs many upgrades.
People do however make LACK enclosures as seen on thingiverse using Ikea furniture so there's nothing stopping you making one in that design around the entire printer with extrusions instead.
Any issues with the bristles getting caught in that idler bearing on the left side? Seemed while you were moving it manually, the bristles wanted to go straight into the space between your belt and your idler.
Looks good
I keep seeing these videos and wonder if you could vent an old hair dryer/heat gun into the enclosure and utilise a control circuit of sorts to control a thermostat switch.
Good stuff mr laws!!
Another great video.
Thanks a lot, Michael Laws
Are the stepper motors okay to work in those temperatures? My steppers get really hot when working in my enclosure, but have only got the enclosure up to 50c so far ( still a work in progress )
All of the steppers are outside of the enclosure with this set up. Z is kind of at the bottom but the bottom is not sealed. I may add a heatsink if it's getting hot.
NASA 's solution for this is to have a special enclosure surrounding the motors, and they force air through it to keep the motors cool while printing stuff like PEEK.
Wow that's very cool.
Could Polycarbonate make for better sidewalls then acrylic? Should be available under the trade name of Lexan.
R values are similar but the service temperature is much higher. Consider a higher r value material for the top and any side that you don't want to see through. I thought of grid ceiling tiles as a decent choice. Be safe.
Great video! I too wonder what can be used to heat a chamber... A guy at MRRF this year used a food dehydrator. Maybe that is something to consider!
They usually don't get hot enough for a real heated chamber. Perhaps one could be modified to ignore it's thermal switching stuff, but at that point it'd work like a weak hair dryer. So it'd probably be more effective to use an actual hairdryer.
I believe that. I have a food dehydrator that I printed walls for to dry filament. I put a temperature sensor at the bottom and it reads ~65C when cranked up to max. But that is a smaller area to heat for sure.
I think a heating lamp inside the chamber would be perdect. You can easily control with a thermostat, zero noise, and its even gives an awesome red glow.
I wish there was a SK-Go HT version, with a small build volume (Prusa Mini build plates?). Fully enclosed with heated chamber, capable of printing engineering filaments.
Maybe you can try to use a hot air gun from a rework station? They're pretty compact
I just purchased a cheapy full size one, I wish I had seen this first. Great suggestion.
@@TeachingTech aw man, well I hope you can get it to work, looking forward for your next video
I’m using the official creality enclosure bag. It’s like a tent. But it has the mylar insulation built into it. I am just using the heat from the Ender bed no extra heater. No problems with ABS. Maybe you are loosing too much heat through that brush top and sides? I’m interested to see your hairdryer idea in action though
Those brushes will create an awful amount of static electricity and if your printer is not grounded it can damage the mainboard.
Partly agree. The friction need to be between non conductive materials.
That heater experiment was rather predictable, the Ender 5 already has a 220W heated bed - if it can't keep the chamber hot enough, a tiny heater made from a 40W hotend heater cartridge won't be able to do diddly squat.
Instead of a hairdryer, you should take a look at personal space heaters - they are tiny, cheap and around 200-400 watts, and also designed to run for longer times.
Ive done this I used pparts from a 240v space heater off banggood, admittedly I used a 300w PTC model, but could only pump out air heated air upto 75oC, so Ill be watching to see what works on top of that
I could only maintain temps around 70-73oC max with a 500w 240V bed attached to 6.3mm 350x350mm alu plate running 120oC at same time though I haddnt insulated the chamber yet, but if the heated air cant get to 95oC prob not going to work.
also I bought a spectacle frame heater to try and that was worse than the PTC space heater parts
Great suggestions. I think I'm just going to go heat gun via SSR. Got a really cheap one already.
@@TeachingTech I was also thinking you would need something over 300W for that size chamber and leakage, so maybe 500W controlled might give you enough headroom.
I also think you need a short length inside brush on the gantry to block that Vee that opens up when it passes the cover brush.
1000watts it is...how about a strip heater with fins in a box with ssr question is how to ramp the heat percentage load so you don’t use what you don’t need out of 1000w, power related 80% duty only is ideally the case, I am guessing around 6.5 amps on a 120v circuit
Great job
I cringed a bit when you showed off your hotend heater. That thing needs a local thermistor watching it. The one you put up top would not know if the chamber heater went into meltdown.
In my industry, large wire-wrap resistors are connected across mains (typ 120V) to help keep outdoor equipment enclosures dry. Those things can get blistering hot. The design is a hollow cylinder and some even have fins cast around them.
I just realized... do you have custom fixtures on the ends of the x gantry, where it interfaces with the belts, pulleys, and the motor? They look different from what I have on mine, and I'm wondering what purpose they serve
and did the belt catch the brush meanwhile?
I have heard that this printer is not good for a heated chamber since the belts can melt from the heat.
Did anyone consider trying one or two of those portable spiral hot plates . Used for cooking . They will boil water . Which is supposed to be 100c .
What’s the max chamber temp before you need to start finding cooling solutions (ex liquid cooling) for the steppers and hotend?
steppers are save up to 90/95 degrees, i usually stay on max 80/85 degrees with not crazy speeds
do you think it could be upgraded with dual Z rods and steppers? those supports seem more like a band-aid than a fix
Love the build. My question is, are you going to do a review on the Ender 5 Plus? Can the "Plus" be enclosed also? Thanks for your video's an your time.
Maybe the hair drayer with solid relay work bettler for chamber heater.
Thanks for the video. Where should I connect the extruder fan when adding a chamber heater? In part 2 of this series the extruder fan is connected to HE1. Here the chamber heater gets connected to HE1.
V-slot is like adult Erector Set material
Sorry for butting in with a somewhat unrelated note, but I respect your knowledge and opinion.
I have been following your channel and used a lot of the info for my Ender 3, but now I'm about to buy a new printed to up my game a bit. My choice is between the Ender 5 Plus and the CR 10 V2, and I just can't make up my mind. Would you have any thoughts on that problem?
How to handle protection threshold as the temperature of the chamber will reach very slowly.
I really like your videos! Can you make playlists for the different printers?
Great work as always! BUT, Would a Peltier board work? You could install it halfway through the chamber and electronics, cooling one side, heating the other
I had a couple on hand but the rated voltage was wrong and my research told me they wouldn't have the power (although probably better than what I achieved here).
My main concern would be condensation.
Do you have a link for the brushes?
Glad the Ender 5 is still getting upgraded!
Do you have a link or some contact info for the guy Matt that sent you the pics of his chambered printer with the nylon top that confirmed your idea? I am really interested in how he's mounted the power and logic box on the side there. Not a lot of videos or information from people having moved brains out of the bottom box, and half of that again for those that have kept the box but re-positioned it outside the frame.
Have you set up the mains silicone bed yet? I have a 500w 11v mains with heat sinks on it that will reach 250c, but need to distribute the heat into enclosure. Really hoping you have a follow up on this.
Looking to apply a lot of this to the ender 5 plus
I run a number of XYZ Davinci's (modified). They get to 50-58c which is hot enough even for large items. 100c would seem too high for internally mounted steppers?????
Melted my hotend. The cooling fan became jammed by spooling.
forgive my ignorance... but if you are doing ABS do you not want a completely sealed chamber due to the formaldehyde release... and the bed typicial needs heating to the glass temperature for most filaments so surely you already have the correct temperature heat source heating the chamber?
EDIT: As for the stepper motors getting to hot... why not water cool them?
The bed will be at temp, the nozzle is at temp, but in between the part will be cooler. The shrinkage deforms the part. Unfortunately the heated bed doesn't heat the whole chamber.
@@TeachingTech But as we all know heat rises, so your brushed top let's all the heat escape as it has too many air gaps. If you use another heat source below that will also escape the same way unless you use a completely sealable chamber.
Heaps of ceramic heater for cars you can buy on ebay.