New Pursue a Lead/Devise a Stratagem reads to me as "when in doubt, let it apply." Which already was the rule at my tables - investigator needed the mechanical buff - but its nice to see that Paizo is on the same page.
I think a funny alteration to "That's Odd" that would satisfy _some_ GMs would be to rename it "Oh, One More Thing..." and theme it after Columbo. Have it only activate when the player is about to LEAVE the area instead of right after they enter, so that way it gives the party a chance to find the clues on their own but not worry about missing things!
@@SamuelTheShifter it would also be easier to evaluate it's value. With that's odd you can't be sure if you would be able to find the clues on your own, because it always procs. But your version will only have an effect if you miss something, and depending on the amount of value it gives, you can easily decide if it's worth that class feat.
The relaxing of Pursue a Lead and Devise a Stratagem was a brutal power up, doubling up on its place of the biggest know-it-all in the game. The point you make at the end about a "hitting the enemy when it is most vulnerable" is basically the "Just as Planned" feat. ;)
As someone newer GMing for an investigator, I like the new Pursue a Lead a lot. The old version felt too limiting and my player was frequently struggling to come up with a good lead and was pretty much just ignoring the feat. Now I can collaborate with them and we can work together to find something that makes sense!
@@Money4Nuthing As in the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye, a faction that deals with strange goings on like the Dominion of the Black or the Whispering Way
The "Pointed question" isn't just diplomacy "Feint". It is diplomacy "Feint" that works for ranged strikes and it further justifies having free DaS for the enemy because you are interrogating them at the same time. But it also has the disadvantage of being auditory, linguistic, and mental, so most of the fights won't utilize it unless you can speak with animals and such.
I as a GM actually like the Pursue a Lead change. It makes it much easier to drag the Investigator PC along a plot that I want them to follow, and the inevitable Devise a Stratagem question isn't an issue if you just already know whether anyone there actually has anything to do with the mystery. Edit: I also find it funny that an Investigator can potentially deal more damage with a bomb than a bomber Alchemist by using Strategic Strike, and get their Intelligence on the strike roll as well to potentially also hit higher strike numbers with a bomb than an Alchemist can, and potentially not even use up the bomb if the strike roll was bad because they can just do something else.
A lot more damage, but that was already the case - Investigator dipping Alchemist Archetype is a far more effective bomber than Alchemist (was anyway; will need to see after the remaster).
@@KindredBrujah New bomber is better because they get unlimited bombs (6 per encounter that regen 2 for every 10 minutes on exploration mode) + can choose just about any damage type at will, so better versatility
@@vehemetipolygoniae2197 Yeah, I saw the change with downtime vial regeneration. That's a clever change which helps Alchemist a lot. Of course, the Investigator can just use a different weapon if they run out of bombs, and still deal more damage than the Alchemist, so there's that. Sounds a lot more balanced than it used to be, though.
I'll be honest: when I read the effects of Surgical Shock I immediately thought of Hokuto no Ken - "the fist of the north star" to the english speakers: a pressure point attack that messes up the opponent big time.
I think the class is better but there are definitely things that could’ve used attention that didn’t get it. Interrogator got some cool combat options, but why didn’t Empiricist?
Pointed Question's changes are absolutely huge for ranged characters. I have an Interrogator investigator in one of my games who's already focused on ranged and has very high Diplomacy, so I'm extremely happy about this.
The changes while not as flashy as what some other classes got actually feel great to me. Opening up the action economy really drastically expands possibility, and you get free actions so often now against multiple targets, it really feels awesome to play.
Skill Stratagem is fine, but I would have preferred if they came up with a use for low DaS rolls instead of just ignoring them. Maybe if there was a Defensive Stratagem where the creature attacks you then you can spend a reaction to replace their roll with your DaS roll. You can then make Skill Stratagem a feat, perfect for those middle of the road rolls. Also, maybe just get rid of the "you can't attempt to Strike" part. I see where they were going with it, but it just feels bad. Honestly, kinda let down by the Investigator remaster. It's a great class in concept, but it's very wordy with a number of abilities that only function in overly specific situations, and I was kinda hoping they would be able to trim the fat and make it more streamlined. I'm sure a lot of people will love it, but it just misses the mark for me.
I know in my games, the empiricists eye feat would actually get used a lot. Heightened Invisibility is a pretty common spell for me to have casters toss out at that point, so most enemies that get it will just do 2 actions of hurty stuff and one action to sneak. It's situational, but like, you'll see use in almost any fight with a caster in my games. Also worth noting that I do make my player take the point out action; at most, they can alert allies that someone is hiding if they want to do the talking is a free action thing. Surgical shock is crazy; fort targeting stupified is an incredible caster killer!
Sure, in some games some feats just prevail over others. Its hard to account for the wide amount of styles of gas. In my games I tend not to overuse things like invisibility on my players, to each their own
@theebadluckgamer oh, I absolutely agree. If I presented the feat without context of dm style/setting, I would say the exact same things you did; the feat is good (I still wouldn't say great because like, you can just cast Revealing Lights or Dispel, and most of the times thats what my players do) at *my* table, but I imagine not so much at most tables.
1 of my favorite builds is Investigator w/ a caster arch then into Eldritch Archer. Picking what spell to strike with after your attack roll is awesome. Before the remaster, it was tricky to get before 10th level. Now it works from 6th on. We use free arch's, but the build can be done without free arch's.
Generally speaking, i would just be ruling for the most part that if you investigator is pursuing normal play and campaign goals, just give him the free action. If you are ambushing an investigator or if they are side tracking and not focused on campaign goals, dont give them the free action.
Investigator is a class I want to love but even in remaster just doesn't quite click with me on paper. Maybe I'd enjoy it more if I actually gave it a shot.
It's buffed overall but weirdly different forms of clunk and jank, and I wish they just made it so it's always a free action if the target is within 30 feet or something (could give that melee / thrown build a huge consistency buff that way). Yeah it still feels like more Feats could use a rework to be less table/GM dependent even now. Also would've been nice for more substantial subclass changes or additions. The class is pretty lacking in damage types, so a spooky occult detective could've been a cool trope to work with, as well as a scrappy ruffian like investigator.
Is there something stopping people from using Pointed Question essentially as a Recall Knowledge? Like, could the question be something like "Are you especially weak to something?" Also, does the target answer you immediately? Because under Lie, it says it takes a full round to Lie, so is this normal rule ignored, and the target can attempt to lie essentially as a free action? Either way, I love these changes, I've been thinking about doing a Charisma-focused Investigator for a while, and these changes seem really good for a character like that.
The one way I can see this work is if you go full interview questions and ask, "*What* is your greatest weakness?" However, that feels a little like cheesing it. On the other hand, it's just as annoying in-game as it is in an interview.
Thank you very much for giving us this video. A bit sad that there were not many important changes to Investigator. Person of interest seems to be the most significant one. Is the investigator dedication the same? I am seriously considering switching my Alchemical Science Investigator to a Alchemist with Investigator dedication.
First you can have multiple fortune effects for the same roll, you just have to choose which one applies. Just as Planned affects d20 roll of DaS, while DaS itself affects the next Strike. So every action is still affected by a single fortune effect.
I am not sure how Just as Planned is supposed to work. Devise a Stratagem already has the fortune trait so it is conflicting with Just as Planned's fortune trait.
Versatile Vials under the Alchemist class says you can regain 2 vials for every 10 minutes you spend in exploration. Would an Alchemical Sciences Investigator not be able to do this? Being able to regenerate them out of combat would certainly make using them as bombs a more viable option.
Finally! Been waiting on this one. Things are looking up for my little kobold. Hope they did good work on the Poisoner archetype and make him even more viable.
I also would love to know what happened to poisoner now. There are a lot of interesting feats in alchemist that could improve the dedication. Could you share what changed in poisoner @thewordywarlock7159 ?
Anytime i hear that some ability isn't much useful on a ttrpg bc it's situational i think it's a gm problem. If a player selected that ability that means it's the gm job to create the opportunity for it to be used. It's not a video game that you must pick the optimal abilities to win the game but it's a story created together.
Connect the Dots: I fail to see how spending two of our own actions to give a small bonus (circumstance bonus at that, so it may not even apply) to an ally is in any way good action economy, let alone spending a level 6 feat for the privilege. It's not "A Home in Any Port" bad, but it's pretty bad.
The fact that Strategic Strike remains a d6 and insight coffee still exists is baffling. Completely agree on the lack of good metastrikes within the class. The fact that Investigator is almost always better off archetyping to get Spellcasting, Spellstrikes, feats like Archer's Aim or even simple Quick Draw to pull out fatal weapon on a lucky DaS roll, instead of spending feats within a class is criminal. DaS is my single favorite PF2e mechanic yet I still hate Investigator class ...
Surgical Shock's failure result is... mildly alleviating at best. You just incurred the MAP by using the feat, and now it offsets that by +1 if you make anymore attacks before the end of your turn. Not your next turn. This turn.
Not sure where you're getting that idea from, when you ask the Pointed Question, the target attempts to Lie to you, which determines if you believe the lie or not.
There's something about the remastered Investigator that just doesn't hit it for me. I feel like they didn't really fix the core issues plaguing the class and instead just added more stuff to it. It still looks MAD-as-hell with how one of the subclasses play to its strengths. Skill stratagems making it where you CANT attack in a round is just... why? You'd already have worse damage and accuracy than any other martial in the game. Strategic Athlete is still bad. Takedown Expert is still bad. Two feats that just seem so cool flavor wise but pointless mechanically (yes I know there are like 3 niche cases where Takedown Expert is good, I've come up with one of them). Idk I don't want to come off as too upset over this but they really wasted an opportunity to help fix one of the most unnecessarily complicated and least popular classes in the game and didn't really do much with it. Monk was a class in a far better place than Investigator and it got so much cooler stuff that played well to its strengths. Same with Rogue, Barbarian and even Swashbuckler to an extent. A few of the new feats seem neat, Eliminate Red Hearing, Exploit Blunder and Surgical Shock but it all seems like a band-aid.
Eliminate Red Herrings is completely busted with all the other Recall Knowledge stuff you're doing as Investigator. It's equivalent to Unmistakable Lore but for _all skills._ Paired with Dubious Knowledge, you literally always gain _some_ info when you RK. Eat your heart out, Diverse Lore Thaumaturge.
@@commenter1430 Thaumaturge is still probably better, regrettably. Thaumaturge gets a lot more extra stuff on successes and even failures. Investigator has roughly equal chances to get successes (rolling on the Specific Lore table, but with a notably lower score in most scenarios) but then few ways to really take advantage of it.
New Pursue a Lead/Devise a Stratagem reads to me as "when in doubt, let it apply." Which already was the rule at my tables - investigator needed the mechanical buff - but its nice to see that Paizo is on the same page.
I run it this way at my table as well and it has been fine.
I think a funny alteration to "That's Odd" that would satisfy _some_ GMs would be to rename it "Oh, One More Thing..." and theme it after Columbo. Have it only activate when the player is about to LEAVE the area instead of right after they enter, so that way it gives the party a chance to find the clues on their own but not worry about missing things!
Thanks for that great idea! I will steal that for my games - really makes it much easier for everyone (including the GM!) involved
@@SamuelTheShifter it would also be easier to evaluate it's value. With that's odd you can't be sure if you would be able to find the clues on your own, because it always procs. But your version will only have an effect if you miss something, and depending on the amount of value it gives, you can easily decide if it's worth that class feat.
Just One More Thing is already an investigator feat.
@@kizikucalegon8673 Damn! Oh well, the name wasn't the important part anyways, plus it's good to know that Paizo already put in a Columbo reference XD
The relaxing of Pursue a Lead and Devise a Stratagem was a brutal power up, doubling up on its place of the biggest know-it-all in the game.
The point you make at the end about a "hitting the enemy when it is most vulnerable" is basically the "Just as Planned" feat. ;)
As someone newer GMing for an investigator, I like the new Pursue a Lead a lot. The old version felt too limiting and my player was frequently struggling to come up with a good lead and was pretty much just ignoring the feat. Now I can collaborate with them and we can work together to find something that makes sense!
Love the changes, but I will not rest until Paizo publishes a Paranormal Methodology Investigator to exorcise me.
Divine Mysteries is giving us a Palatine Detective archetype for investigator!
@@thewordywarlock7159 idk what a Palatine is, but fuck yeah sounds cool
@@Money4Nuthing As in the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye, a faction that deals with strange goings on like the Dominion of the Black or the Whispering Way
The "Pointed question" isn't just diplomacy "Feint". It is diplomacy "Feint" that works for ranged strikes and it further justifies having free DaS for the enemy because you are interrogating them at the same time. But it also has the disadvantage of being auditory, linguistic, and mental, so most of the fights won't utilize it unless you can speak with animals and such.
Gnomevestigator stocks rising with animal elocutionist
DaS?
@@FirstLast-wk3kcDevise a Strategem
@@brentchance1589 oh right, okay
@@thewordywarlock7159 I already have a Gnomevestigator Interrogator who specializes in ranged combat. I'm eating GOOD.
i wish empiricist's eye allowed you to point out any enemy as well, making it so you could gain the benefits weather they are undetected or not.
I as a GM actually like the Pursue a Lead change. It makes it much easier to drag the Investigator PC along a plot that I want them to follow, and the inevitable Devise a Stratagem question isn't an issue if you just already know whether anyone there actually has anything to do with the mystery.
Edit: I also find it funny that an Investigator can potentially deal more damage with a bomb than a bomber Alchemist by using Strategic Strike, and get their Intelligence on the strike roll as well to potentially also hit higher strike numbers with a bomb than an Alchemist can, and potentially not even use up the bomb if the strike roll was bad because they can just do something else.
A lot more damage, but that was already the case - Investigator dipping Alchemist Archetype is a far more effective bomber than Alchemist (was anyway; will need to see after the remaster).
@@KindredBrujah
New bomber is better because they get unlimited bombs (6 per encounter that regen 2 for every 10 minutes on exploration mode) + can choose just about any damage type at will, so better versatility
@@vehemetipolygoniae2197 Yeah, I saw the change with downtime vial regeneration. That's a clever change which helps Alchemist a lot. Of course, the Investigator can just use a different weapon if they run out of bombs, and still deal more damage than the Alchemist, so there's that. Sounds a lot more balanced than it used to be, though.
@@KindredBrujah
Yep i suppose, but then again, what the alchemist lacks in direct damage, they make up for in utility and versatility
I'll be honest: when I read the effects of Surgical Shock I immediately thought of Hokuto no Ken - "the fist of the north star" to the english speakers: a pressure point attack that messes up the opponent big time.
Surgical strike doesn't make the target _explode._ That's what monk's Quivering Palm ki spell is for.
I think the class is better but there are definitely things that could’ve used attention that didn’t get it. Interrogator got some cool combat options, but why didn’t Empiricist?
Pointed Question's changes are absolutely huge for ranged characters. I have an Interrogator investigator in one of my games who's already focused on ranged and has very high Diplomacy, so I'm extremely happy about this.
The changes while not as flashy as what some other classes got actually feel great to me. Opening up the action economy really drastically expands possibility, and you get free actions so often now against multiple targets, it really feels awesome to play.
Skill Stratagem is fine, but I would have preferred if they came up with a use for low DaS rolls instead of just ignoring them. Maybe if there was a Defensive Stratagem where the creature attacks you then you can spend a reaction to replace their roll with your DaS roll. You can then make Skill Stratagem a feat, perfect for those middle of the road rolls. Also, maybe just get rid of the "you can't attempt to Strike" part. I see where they were going with it, but it just feels bad.
Honestly, kinda let down by the Investigator remaster. It's a great class in concept, but it's very wordy with a number of abilities that only function in overly specific situations, and I was kinda hoping they would be able to trim the fat and make it more streamlined. I'm sure a lot of people will love it, but it just misses the mark for me.
As a GM, I *love* investigators especially for That's Odd and Red Herring. They're such a good tool for me to feed the PCs information.
I think the cool part about surgical shock is that it doesn’t seem to go on cooldown if you fail the check.
I know in my games, the empiricists eye feat would actually get used a lot. Heightened Invisibility is a pretty common spell for me to have casters toss out at that point, so most enemies that get it will just do 2 actions of hurty stuff and one action to sneak. It's situational, but like, you'll see use in almost any fight with a caster in my games. Also worth noting that I do make my player take the point out action; at most, they can alert allies that someone is hiding if they want to do the talking is a free action thing.
Surgical shock is crazy; fort targeting stupified is an incredible caster killer!
Sure, in some games some feats just prevail over others. Its hard to account for the wide amount of styles of gas. In my games I tend not to overuse things like invisibility on my players, to each their own
@theebadluckgamer oh, I absolutely agree. If I presented the feat without context of dm style/setting, I would say the exact same things you did; the feat is good (I still wouldn't say great because like, you can just cast Revealing Lights or Dispel, and most of the times thats what my players do) at *my* table, but I imagine not so much at most tables.
I was kinda hoping that d8s would be the new standard for the precision damage. Still gotta have coffee breaks between fights lmao
1 of my favorite builds is Investigator w/ a caster arch then into Eldritch Archer. Picking what spell to strike with after your attack roll is awesome. Before the remaster, it was tricky to get before 10th level. Now it works from 6th on. We use free arch's, but the build can be done without free arch's.
Devise a Strategem used before Connect the Dots seems like a really good use of the Skill Strategem if you roll poorly.
Generally speaking, i would just be ruling for the most part that if you investigator is pursuing normal play and campaign goals, just give him the free action. If you are ambushing an investigator or if they are side tracking and not focused on campaign goals, dont give them the free action.
Investigator is a class I want to love but even in remaster just doesn't quite click with me on paper. Maybe I'd enjoy it more if I actually gave it a shot.
It's buffed overall but weirdly different forms of clunk and jank, and I wish they just made it so it's always a free action if the target is within 30 feet or something (could give that melee / thrown build a huge consistency buff that way). Yeah it still feels like more Feats could use a rework to be less table/GM dependent even now.
Also would've been nice for more substantial subclass changes or additions. The class is pretty lacking in damage types, so a spooky occult detective could've been a cool trope to work with, as well as a scrappy ruffian like investigator.
We're getting the Palatine Detective archetype come divine mysteries!
@@thewordywarlock7159 oh that's fire
Is there something stopping people from using Pointed Question essentially as a Recall Knowledge? Like, could the question be something like "Are you especially weak to something?" Also, does the target answer you immediately? Because under Lie, it says it takes a full round to Lie, so is this normal rule ignored, and the target can attempt to lie essentially as a free action?
Either way, I love these changes, I've been thinking about doing a Charisma-focused Investigator for a while, and these changes seem really good for a character like that.
I mean you can ask them something like that but all you will get is the knowledge of whether they have a weakness or not not what that weakness is
The one way I can see this work is if you go full interview questions and ask, "*What* is your greatest weakness?"
However, that feels a little like cheesing it. On the other hand, it's just as annoying in-game as it is in an interview.
Please cover general and skill feats next. I have not seen any one else do that yet.
Thank you very much for giving us this video. A bit sad that there were not many important changes to Investigator. Person of interest seems to be the most significant one.
Is the investigator dedication the same? I am seriously considering switching my Alchemical Science Investigator to a Alchemist with Investigator dedication.
Ahh, yes. I will now ask my allies to close their eyes for a second so that I can use Empiricist's Eye.
A combo chain with Person of Interest, Defensive Stratagem, and Suspect of Opportunity seems possible for reactionary defense.
The big issue Just as Planned is Rules as Written it cannot work because it is a fortune effect attempting to effect another fortune effect.
First you can have multiple fortune effects for the same roll, you just have to choose which one applies. Just as Planned affects d20 roll of DaS, while DaS itself affects the next Strike. So every action is still affected by a single fortune effect.
I'm about to find my first game and I came up with outlines for character that's investigator...
Suspect of Opportunity didn't get a nerf---it got powercrept by something better. A bit misleading to call it a nerf, I think.
I am not sure how Just as Planned is supposed to work. Devise a Stratagem already has the fortune trait so it is conflicting with Just as Planned's fortune trait.
Devise a Stratagem affects the Strike action, Just as Planned affects the Devise a Stratagem action.
I'd love to see you cover spells after Monk.
I think Investigator is definitely better in the remaster, despite not getting everything I wanted.
Versatile Vials under the Alchemist class says you can regain 2 vials for every 10 minutes you spend in exploration. Would an Alchemical Sciences Investigator not be able to do this? Being able to regenerate them out of combat would certainly make using them as bombs a more viable option.
Finally! Been waiting on this one. Things are looking up for my little kobold. Hope they did good work on the Poisoner archetype and make him even more viable.
They did, poisoner got the buffs to toxicologist, and even got unique buffs that make _blowguns_ viable
I also would love to know what happened to poisoner now. There are a lot of interesting feats in alchemist that could improve the dedication. Could you share what changed in poisoner @thewordywarlock7159 ?
oof, Surgical Shock has an attack trait. That +1 on failure only offsets a bit of the MAP.
Anytime i hear that some ability isn't much useful on a ttrpg bc it's situational i think it's a gm problem. If a player selected that ability that means it's the gm job to create the opportunity for it to be used. It's not a video game that you must pick the optimal abilities to win the game but it's a story created together.
Connect the Dots: I fail to see how spending two of our own actions to give a small bonus (circumstance bonus at that, so it may not even apply) to an ally is in any way good action economy, let alone spending a level 6 feat for the privilege. It's not "A Home in Any Port" bad, but it's pretty bad.
and you can just... aid for an ally anyway for the same bonus and better action economy
The fact that Strategic Strike remains a d6 and insight coffee still exists is baffling. Completely agree on the lack of good metastrikes within the class. The fact that Investigator is almost always better off archetyping to get Spellcasting, Spellstrikes, feats like Archer's Aim or even simple Quick Draw to pull out fatal weapon on a lucky DaS roll, instead of spending feats within a class is criminal. DaS is my single favorite PF2e mechanic yet I still hate Investigator class ...
Surgical Shock's failure result is... mildly alleviating at best. You just incurred the MAP by using the feat, and now it offsets that by +1 if you make anymore attacks before the end of your turn. Not your next turn. This turn.
They're likely using an agile weapon though, means its only a -3 penalty. Not terrible given the upsides
I dont understand pointed question, to see if it's not telling the truth i have to spend another action?
Not sure where you're getting that idea from, when you ask the Pointed Question, the target attempts to Lie to you, which determines if you believe the lie or not.
Oh yeah. It's all coming together.
There's something about the remastered Investigator that just doesn't hit it for me. I feel like they didn't really fix the core issues plaguing the class and instead just added more stuff to it. It still looks MAD-as-hell with how one of the subclasses play to its strengths. Skill stratagems making it where you CANT attack in a round is just... why? You'd already have worse damage and accuracy than any other martial in the game. Strategic Athlete is still bad. Takedown Expert is still bad. Two feats that just seem so cool flavor wise but pointless mechanically (yes I know there are like 3 niche cases where Takedown Expert is good, I've come up with one of them). Idk I don't want to come off as too upset over this but they really wasted an opportunity to help fix one of the most unnecessarily complicated and least popular classes in the game and didn't really do much with it.
Monk was a class in a far better place than Investigator and it got so much cooler stuff that played well to its strengths. Same with Rogue, Barbarian and even Swashbuckler to an extent. A few of the new feats seem neat, Eliminate Red Hearing, Exploit Blunder and Surgical Shock but it all seems like a band-aid.
Eliminate Red Herrings is completely busted with all the other Recall Knowledge stuff you're doing as Investigator. It's equivalent to Unmistakable Lore but for _all skills._ Paired with Dubious Knowledge, you literally always gain _some_ info when you RK. Eat your heart out, Diverse Lore Thaumaturge.
Yeah eliminate red herrings is actually really good. Good stuff mentioning it’s combo with Dubious Knowledge.
Makes sense that investigator should be the best recall knowledge class xD
@@commenter1430 Thaumaturge is still probably better, regrettably. Thaumaturge gets a lot more extra stuff on successes and even failures. Investigator has roughly equal chances to get successes (rolling on the Specific Lore table, but with a notably lower score in most scenarios) but then few ways to really take advantage of it.
I love you content...but you clearly hate me...when are we getting the Summoner Video 😂😂😂
? Summoner isn't in Player Core 2, there probably won't be any changes till around November