In 8th grade, the kid behind me stabbed me in the back with a pencil. I yelled at him. I was the one who got in trouble because I disturbed the class by yelling (in anger/pain). The teacher told me to sit outside and "cool off". Outside. In Alaska. In winter. No. Next it was "go to the office". Fine, that's warmer and you (teacher) are useless. Wait, wait, wait. No one comes to admonish me, so they send me to the next class. Turns out to be my 3rd time being late to class. "Go to the office." Took the Vice Principal a few minutes to figure out why I was there. Called my parents. I was in trouble ... for something. All the adults agreed, after hearing the whole story-and actually believing me-that I needed to be punished ... for something. So, 2 days of in-school suspension. Had to go sit in an unused office for 2 days ... for something. Turns out the "something" was the adults needing to feel power and in-charge. That's it. All (most) of the adults in my life at the time demanded respect, but rarely did anything worthy of receiving it. I ended up going to an "alternative" high school and, while still tough (rarely) was such a good place for me.
Very relatable. They really love to punish kids and put them in their place even when it's totally uncalled for. I can't see how they think that's a recipe for respect.
Holy moly this is so amazing. “For something”… You really articulated well that constant feeling (I have always had) of “everyone seems to be running on some sort of script, but I can see you’re missing this, and this, and all of that over there, and these things, and you’re wrong about xyz, and why are you punishing the wrong person and is anyone going to listen to me???” but somehow we’re the ones who are always wrong. And then there are the adults who listen, agree with you, yet still join in with “othering” you, because it’s what everyone else is doing. For something. Wow. I bet many of us FELT your frustration in that moment while reading it. I also now tell any and all “elders” who even begin to try the whole “respect me” nonsense with me… “Respect is earned, not obligated, and I don’t know you, and you’re being rude, so…. no. Be nice, and I will *treat you* with respect, but whether I respect you remains to be seen.” They don’t like it. And I’m 50+.
I wonder how many others can relate to you as strongly? I also experienced frequent punishments for disruption and tatteling because the kid next to me would punch me in the arm and kick my legs as hard as he could, yet I was the one sent out of class and eventually hidden away alone in a corner with a box around my desk. Might as well have said dunce. Still in my mind this feels as if I were being punished for standing up for myself or needing help or intervention somehow.. I felt as if everyone hated me for existing.
I definitely prefer the autistic version: ‘persistent drive for autonomy’. I feel like calling it pathological demand avoidance is so gross! It’s totally neurotypical people’s way of pathologising valid critiques of how our systems oppress us. I think it makes totally sense for us to be horrified that we don’t get choices in life and that we have to waste our time being beaten down by institutions like school and our jobs. In my opinion they created the PDA model to further strip away our autonomy, because now when we freak out about how something is unjust or doesn’t make sense it’ll be seen as a symptom, rather than a valid problem! Great video as always, so thankful for your channel and the time and effort you put into your videos Edit: loool the ‘compliance’ thing is making me laugh. Literally me and my partner were just talking the other day about how triggering the word ‘compliance’ is
i think “persistent drive for autonomy” has genuinely been the main driving force for how I approached life from childhood. I’ve always had an almost obsessive level of wanting independence and autonomy from a very young age.
I kind of like 'pathological demand avoidance' because it's so transparent-'this is someone who doesn't do what I want, and I believe that not doing what I want is a pathology'. It's more insulting to neurotypicals than to anyone else, since it is so obviously authoritarian, egotistical, and pathologizing.
That first article enrages me to my core. The amount of false intentions the writer of the article puts on innocent overwhelmed children just infuriates me.
I’m a black women resonating with PDA autism after exploring it in therapy with a mix of ADHD. Not going to generalize the entire black community but more often than not, mental health issues are not discussed or accurately recognized. My parents were both social workers so that helped but still had their pitfalls. Some of what you stated about your mom resonated with my own mother too, especially the questioning what I’m wearing when I just wanted to express myself how I wanted to express myself at times. I’ve noticed that mental health isn’t as brushed under the rug and more accepted with my white women friends. Whereas black women sometimes don’t have the luxury of mental health disorders, we are just generalized as angry, modern, crazy… not allowing to have trauma until we go to therapy and allowed to have that space. Literally only there so it’s a gem to find black women who openly talk about this on social media.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I’d imagine the ‘angry black woman’ stereotype doesn’t help either. Another senseless concept to be rightfully enraged about.
Damn, as someone else who struggles big time with PDA, I can’t imagine how much racialization as a black woman particularly could play a big role in the experience of PDA and people’s reactions to make it that much harder to deal with. Hope you’re doing okay.
There is something I can't put my finger on with mental health in general, that it's a "luxury" for the luckiest of people, so from a lot of communities the prevailing wisdom is press f to ignore. Who cares what the rich and powerful are up to? We gotta eat. It's hard finding that you are sorta in the situation where you either spend money on food or medicine but you can't afford both, so how do you handle that mentally, by telling yourself a story I guess that really you're not that hungry or that you've been feeling better anyway. Love you, hope you don't have too much trouble with medicals, honestly I'd be hesitant with a white doctor unless you really like them.
Exactly. I’m glad there’s info reaching people, but it feels like another case of non-white experiences/struggles going unheard/erased. It started out with only autistic white boys…it would really help break the stereotype if we had better, diverse representation.
Then make a channel and videos! What's the difference? The difference is the people you're watching decided to make videos and/or stream. So what's stopping you?
@@its.Lora.an interesting response to a comment on a video about PDA. Not going to lie. This honestly comes off as bossy and forward to say in general IMO.
The 1/5 quality work makes absolute sense to me, school rules can often times be arbitrarily made that it drives me up the friggin wall. I remember learning that my emotions weren't allowed in school and the last time I authentically responded to something that brought me joy, I was so excited to do an art project I started panting; I also love dogs obsessively, always have. I was sent to time out in the hallway. In fourth grade. I was mortified. Mind you this is the same school that covered an amab classmates desk with paper because he drew on everything.
32:00 actually is really relatable. I used to constantly wear shorts, my mum used to constantly tell me “It’s cold outside, why are you wearing shorts?” And even though I knew I’d be freezing all day, I choose not to change because her simply saying that somehow irked me enough to feel like I needed to prove myself.
I think this really ties into that strong sense of fairness. Unearned authority to override another equal person's equal right to agency is inherently unfair. Thanks for talking about this. Around 12:07 onwards through to the end really resonated with me.
I just found this on socials today….”sometimes people mean respect to mean treating someone like a person. And sometimes they mean it like treating them as an authority. For some, they say if you don’t respect me I won’t respect you. But what they mean is, if you don’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person. And that is not ok”
Today on it turns out that yes, there’s a kind of human where it’s like. No. That’s objectively evil why can’t you tell other humans are human and why doesn’t it delight you to bits. Tf is wrong with you. Scary but also grow up??? Haha I’m real
@@DeJaVuNous people expecting it to be polite to put up with that when it’s like Ohh buddy this is why there are revolutions, we’re both people Dehumanization even in the etymology of the word acknowledges its subject as human. Like Pls
I think there's a relationship between the two (PDA & a sense of fairness). Personally, I'm kind of 'over' fairness (and think moral impulses of this kind have net negative effects), but I still deal with demand avoidance. (When I was younger, though-fairness & hypocrisy were very important issues to me.)
[A reply to a now-deleted comment] I don't agree that that's what authority should mean (being coercive), but agree that earned trust in another is absolutely vital to being able to happily defer to another. @@justicetrooper
I remember being very aware of having PDA (without knowing why) as a child and teen and constantly telling my parent to not ask me to do certain things "I was about to do it but you asked me and now I don't want to", "if you stopped asking me I would do it, please stop asking me to do it" but I don't think they ever understood and trust that I would do the things by myself so they kept asking. It is so interesting and illuminating to be able to look back on those kind of things with context now. Thank you again for your videos, they are incredibly useful and impactful! ❤
The internalized PDA more than makes sense to me, maybe I could help? **TW self harm, ED** For me, my upbringing was abusive and overbearing, and I was forced to comply or be met with rage, so I could only express my frustration alone. I started to cut as the only way to get the violent tendencies out, and I definitely learned to yell at myself for being useless or lazy, as well as developing other control tactics like anorexia. When your outside world is hostile to the point where you even hinting at your unhappiness could be catastrophic, you can only try to control yourself. It creates a super fucked-up mask.
9:24 WOW I’ve never heard anyone else verbalize this concept outside of my family! My daughter has been this way from birth! She doesn’t see age/authority everyone is just another human and her thoughts and values are equal with everyone else’s…even at 4 & 5 years old. Her kindergarten teacher had a difficult time with understanding this..& I literally explained it to the teacher.
Girl I FEEL you with finding mainly children-geared articles and studies, the internet is sorely lacking adult ASD information. Comparatively speaking of course. I’ve even been tempted to make my own channel too. What you’re doing for yourself and your viewers is so important to the community, thank you so much for sharing your insight and personal stories with us ❤️
I'm unsure if I have PDA, but especially all these rules about respect have always riled me up. I love to follow rules but when the rules don't make sense im immediately put off, why can't i rest myself the way i want if i still listen as good as everyone else? why should i respect a teacher, someone i don't know and have never truly met. Why should i use your second name while you use my first? And I have always and still do these things but out of terror. I'm very sensitive so even the lightest wrong tone or no makes me cry and my experiences with teachers and trying to explain myself or advocate for myself have ended badly.
I think part of the PDA is not seeing most of the benefits for working within a social hierarchy while still having all of the pressure. If other people appreciate my work or enjoy my company, if they aren't SUPER explicit about it, I won't know they feel that way, and even if they are explicit I probably wouldn't believe them. The positive reinforcement feedback rarely has any effect; you can't just pat me on the back, say "good job", and expect me to feel anything if actions don't back it up. On the other hand, responsibility creates more opportunities for other people to judge you negatively, and the penalties often do tend to be real, although sometimes we get the emotional attacks as a bonus. You don't get a promotion, you get a bad grade or review, friends stop inviting you out, etc. If I'm not objectively outworking my coworkers, being overly nice and caring with friends (way more so than they are with me), etc., I will get punished for it, and it is quite draining and tricky to put forth that much effort without promising more than I can handle, and other people asking me to do extra stuff on top of that can push me over the edge. I definitely feel the need to obsessively control what I'm responsible for, for fear of very real consequences compared to negligible benefits.
I feel you. I've recently stopped offering or even agreeing to do any of the extra stuff expected of me at work because I'm always expected to take it on but then always get complained at because "so and so cheated at trivia!" "we didn't get the food we wanted!" "this activity SUCKED!" etc. I'm a supervisor, not a party planner, but I'm expected to act like the parent of 80+ overgrown toddlers who don't like what I offer, refuse to respond when I ask for suggestions, and still insist that I pour my time, money, and energy into SOMETHING that they're just going to whinge about. 😑
The article at the beginning of the video states how "children with PDA" are socially manipulative people, as if its not done to get out of impossible situations created by others acting ableist
On the topic of internalize/freeze/fawn I think of it as a situation in which someone feels that "bracing for impact" is the reliable response rather than trying to fight or get away from the physiologically threatening situation when faced with it.
Wow, very good description. When there’s no room for fight or flight in the brain’s threat response (almost all of the time with PDA in our society), all there is is that awful, grating feeling of “bracing for impact” internalizing / freezing / fawning. With constant demands and expectations for behavior, the threat response feeling ends up ever-present, and life becomes that much harder to navigate.
You are amazing. I just want to say that. As gen X I went through much of the same things back in the 80’s and since then in the workplace and as time passes and I watch how gen Z is **tearing it all down** and finally speaking truths without being shut down, and finally demanding changes, the more excited I get. I’m so fucking proud of your generation. Everything you said felt like it came from my own soul screaming into the void for decades, and you’re so fantastic in how you so smoothly articulate it. You inspire me. Seriously. Also want to say that if you have a team, or put together a team, to expand what you’re doing, I’d be honored to work for/with you, because your messages, and HOW you express them, need to keep growing and I would love, for-f-ing-once, to get to work with someone whose mind “gets it”.
Literally shouted “F*CKING YES!” to what you said about if you’re blaming and scapegoating a child, look at your own behavior, and if you want a child to be compliant and engaged, engage with that child. I don’t have children, I was convinced I’d bring a new generation of broken, messed-up kids into the world because I always felt like a broken, messed-up kid, even well into adulthood. It’s so refreshing to see us as a society finally inching away from that “respect your elders unquestioningly” crap.
Your commentary on kids and parenting is pretty accurate, for real. Kids learn by modeling. You show them, with your own behavior, and that is how they actually learn. From what you do. Positive parenting education talks a lot about modeling.
This is my problem with jobs, I struggle SO much with work. Why am I doing something I HATE, something that's literally damaging to my mental and physical health so I can barely survive? I've been employed AND literally starving, not able to afford rent, or pay for my meds/doctors bills and the solution is work more? What so I can have more meltdowns and hurt myself more than I already am? I've worked SO hard to get where I am with my mental health, and I value that, but am terrified of how bad I can get. I just wanna be self employed, but I don't even know where to start and I have responsibilities to think about. Sorry rant, I get really worked up about this
Irene, your videos have been more helpful to me than any therapy sessions I've ever been to. I don't have the language to express how truly grateful I am for your videos, you have helped me so much to articulate my struggles with autism and understand what I'm feeling and why. Your videos bring me to tears at some points, I feel such a weight off my chest knowing I am not the problem and there are many people like me who know this pain. Thank you from the bottom of my heart please never stop making content
Excited to hear your thoughts on this, Irene! I often explain what it’s like having PDA by telling someone to imagine that to get *anything* done, even things I want to do, it’s like forcing myself to put my hand on a hot stove burner - at every turn, my brain goes into survival mode and screams, “DON’T TOUCH THAT!” Finding out about PDA is actually the first time I considered I might be autistic. I only heard about PDA autism because I lived in the UK at the time, and it is much more widely recognised there as a “subtype” or profile of the autism spectrum. For some reason, it’s not really known in the USA. Now that I am back stateside, it sometimes feels extra isolating to know how much PDA affects *every* aspect of my life in a way that others (even allistic neurodivergent people) don’t understand at all. And to be honest, I often feel like I’m so different from other autistic people that I don’t “belong” in that category either. I’ve come a long way with self love and acceptance, but it is very isolating. Every day, I feel like I have to gaslight and bribe myself in order to do anything. I wouldn’t change who I am for anything, but I would also never wish this type of pathological avoidance, internal fatigue / burnout, and social invisibility on even my worst enemy.
The example you gave especially the “DON’T TOUCH THAT,” - YOU’LL BE HURT, YOU’LL GET CAUGHT, YOU’RE WRONG YOU’RE ALWAYS WRONG Like that is so viscerally Real for me I haven’t processed it yet. She resonates
I think I can clarify on that social media video where the person says that "things become her fault." take the example from the previous video with the "change of plans" scenario and assume the person is not as self aware or less able to cope with the disregulation. The train of thought doesn't go to "hey hubby I'm activated and I need to problem solve this with you" The train of thought goes "why am I like this? I know this isn't a big deal. I just said something so mean. No one should have to deal with me, this isn't acceptable" And then after the episode happens you try to fix it as if you can stop the response by changing something else in your life. For example your response might be "I'm so sorry I shut down like that, you were making good plans. I just feel so overwhelmed, it must be that I'm taking on too much, I should probably work less/cancel plans/go to therapy/exercise more (insert any number of self improvement solutions)" So instead of trying to create communication strategies or co regulation which requires relational healing with another person, you work a never ending cycle of trying to take responsibility for your faults in isolation.
This is very relatable & I'm pretty sure that's where they were coming from... My process ends up going like : Because YOU'RE the one responding "wrong", it's "YOUR fault" & you need to fix it because the world & the people in it shouldn't have to accommodate you by default because no one is special, so if YOU don't do anything about it, you're The Problem™.
50:55 What this lady said was SPOT ON. For me, I've both experienced the internalizer version and the externalizer version multiple times. As a child or a younger adolescent age I was mainly an externalizer, but obviously with countless negative reactions to that my unconscious response was to repress and then internalize that PDA reaction. This is how the dynamic works for me: If someone triggers my PDA (in a more casual setting), I recognize those emotions and then try to go with a logical approach = setting boundaries, reasoning, explaining my stance, listening to their stance etc. If the logical approach is not received well or respected I go into the *externalized* version of PDA = saying hurtful things, being snarky, shouting, violent behaviour. Then after the major conflict, I'm still in my PDA state but, I go into the *internalized* version = start to shutdown, become non-verbal, start blaming myself, being ashamed of the hurtful things I said, and, endless crying. I've also noticed that whenever I'm in an extremely vulnerable state - (I'm an age regressor, so I sometimes regress to the age of 7-9) I'm more prone to internalized PDA. Also sorry that this is quite long :)
I may be autistic, but I am also A Goddamn Hater™ deep down inside and everything I've learned (from tiktok against my will) about PDA makes me think I probably have it, so consequently, I will not be watching this video out of spite against the universe! However, I love your channel so take my comment for ✨engagement✨
I've heard someone describe PDA autism as "an anxiety driven need for autonomy" and girl did that resinate. I spent soo much time feeling like a was just being difficult and stewing in self hatred for not being able to do anything, even things I really wanted to do, when they started to feel like a reality in the very near future. Like I just WANTED to be a proplem - nope, it's just the autism.
THIS!! Described me perfectly as a child, though I eventually realised that I could comply without buying into the game. People used to say that I'm an all or nothing kind of person, but really I was just a child who demanded consistency.
Understanding PDA has been helpful especially helping to raise my stepdaughter on the spectrum. Teaching her to take care of herself and learn basic chores is a very long process. For context - it took her to age 7 for her to wipe her own bum without adult help and now at age 10 is learning to get her own cup of water, put away her dishes, etc. We have been patient as she will still tell us “I want milk” and we remind her where the cups are and the milk. She will expressively tell us sometimes how she dislikes getting her own glass of milk while she is doing it. The last tik tok video was super helpful because she also doesn’t like to be alone and wants one of us to be with her always unless she is playing with someone on her iPad. Now I understand it’s for regulation as we always thought it was due to her anxiety. Maybe it’s both. Thanks for sharing the links!
as soon as i heard persistent drive for autonomy it made so much more sense to me. i hate pathological demand avoidance, it makes it sound like a conscious choice and just doesn’t sit right with me. persistent drive for autonomy is much more accurate in my opinion!
The first name vs last name is more to do with status to signify someone is in a work role. It could also be a child adult thing since even when parents come in to schools or interact with children usually you say the last name. Saying an adults first name is more of a familial or friend status. I guess you probably know this but the adults didn't explain it well.
the situation you talked about where you just walked out of the class is honestly so admirable, similar things happened to me in school and I would just freeze for the rest of the class. To be honest I still maintained the freeze response even in situations where I know or presume nobody is going to humiliate or hurt me if I disagree to rules haha. Nowadays I'm so quiet it makes people uncomfortable and I'm not sure how to change that. Adolescence was hard though specially with gender dysphoria and everyone saying that I should dress or behave a certain way otherwise they would treat me badly, etc. Some rules in this world just make no sense. (just a disclaimer: I'm not sure if I have PDA or autism for that matter, I just suspect it, but I definitely relate to both experiences)
This puts a lot of my life in perspective. I externalized until I learned it was safer to internalize and people please. But because I was scapegoating myself like the abusive people around me did, I started dissociating more until I felt like the ghost of a robot moving through life without knowing anything about myself. I didn't start healing until I met my husband, who has a lot of traits like mine. It allowed me to see that I wasn't as weird as I believed. Unfortunately, it took me a long time to figure out how to not be codependent and clingy. Self-love discovery is one of my special interests but even with them, if I put too much burden on myself to do them, I do nothing or switch to another special interest, as the dissociated parts of me learned different skills that helped me cope in one time or another. Thank you for your video. I loved the way you read parts of the articles and shared your thoughts. I also love how open you were, while recognizing when you needed to step back from a topic due to emotions coming up.
Wow this is so profound and you really elevated my perspective with your additional comment here. Scapegoating myself because everyone else was. Wow, everything you said was so relatable! 😇
I avoid places like I only cook if no one else is the kitchen and other household chores. I think dyspraxia could be apart of it and I would make mistakes and get yeld at as if I did it on purpose. Any criticism makes me want to just leave.
i definitely despise having other people in the kitchen when i'm cooking. and I lived for over a decade with 2 people who refused to accept this issue, or literally any of my neurodivergence. it was unhealthy to say the least.
This is actually so relatable, there used to be a mirror that pointed towards the kitchen, and I’d constantly check that before ever entering the kitchen, to make sure “the coast is clear”. And I’d literally be so annoyed when the time where I’m hungry somehow is also when someone else is in there. I’ve gotten used to starving myself all day and waiting till midnight just to avoid people.
My mom liked screaming criticism at me when I was doing chores. I would refuse to do them when she was criticizing me. So she said I was lazy. But I wasn't lazy because I would do my chores fine when she wasn't home to yell at me.
I am absolutely an internalizer! I’m not sure if this is the same as that one creator, but I can fully relate to feeling as if it’s my fault in a convoluted way. Since I was to avoid demands and also conflict, I will people please and try to anticipate everything on my own terms before it’s asked of me. Then when there are demands asked of me I get that anger or “activation” but it’s worsened by the fact that I have failed to anticipate those demands. So it really does feel like something that is my fault after building this pattern for years. I’ve been working on dealing with this, but hadn’t actually put the pieces together 100% until this video!
I’m just gonna say, I love people like you. I’m sorry for how hard you had it, being so different from all the other kids. I ,definitely, am appreciative of your adult self because you still retained the qualities that make you awesome and real.
This is so interesting. I definitely relate to the “internalized” response to PDA so I found it really interesting when you said you couldn’t conceptualize it because immediately I had an “aha!” moment 😂 Basically I would (and still do sometimes) feel the emotional disregulation and I would shut down because in my head I believed it was something wrong with me. I am a bad kid. Why could other kids just so easily go along with demands while I got so mad and frustrated? I didn’t blame the authority figures I would blame myself for reacting the way I did. Almost like I hated my brain and body for feeling threatened. I can probably also attribute it to my upbringing. Instead of neglect, I would receive physical consequences for “not complying” so an external reaction on my part would escalate things to very physically unsafe levels. Also, my parents were very good at convincing me that the way I thought made me a bad child especially by using religion against me. As a child growing up in a strict evangelical church you might be able to defy the adults in your life but when you’re constantly being threatened with eternal damnation, you begin to ask yourself “Am I really such a bad child?”. Thankfully, I deconstructed a lot of that. At 30 years old now I still feel the emotional disregulation and anger, but I don’t blame myself or feel “broken, guilty, and wrong” and can handle things a lot more healthily with my partner.
I clicked with it as well! I'm glad to hear you've been able to process a lot of it and understand that none of it was your fault. And I have similarities in my childhood as well, like if I tried to defend myself, I was met with verbal abuse. I took the "lawyer" attitude and tried multiple tactics to defend myself, like yelling back, consoling the parent, having logical arguments or running away from the situation. In the end I noticed that nothing worked nor made it better. So I just shut down, sat there while it all happened and dissociated. And during all of it I blamed myself like "how could I had behaved so it wouldn't have happened?" and also blamed myself for feeling anger/frustration. So even later in other relationships I would be a huge people-pleaser, thinking that my emotional responses were overly dramatic and unjustified. It kinda fucks you up, when you still have a strong sense of justice and autonomy, but don't allow yourself to act upon on it (at least not until you reach that final meltdown phase).
holy mother of god -- im just sitting here with my jaw fucking dropped at my painfully deep resonance with most every word she is uttering much love to all us
Agree about the literature aspect being written about autistic children but the thing is it’s not even written for the children. It’s written for the allistic parents/caregivers by allistic!! So as an autistic adult the language doesn’t really make sense because the language they use from an outsiders perspective is different from the internal experience. It makes the adult autistic experience quite isolating at times because these articles don’t accurately reflect me. One word in particular that annoys me is “obsessive” in particular with behaviours or “compulsions”. Yes there is a small amount of myself that does struggle with extremely graphic intrusive thoughts but honestly most of what they describe as “obsessive” feels logical. Anything that I do I do because it feels logical. It makes sense to me to have a “strict” routine but from an outsiders pov it seems “obsessive” what that isn’t how it FEELS!!!!! Trust me when I say anything that I do seems rational to me 99% of the time and then these allistic are describing me like I’m being controlled by some supervillain or something!?
Growing up I would always respond to any request from my family with a solid NO and a smile, and then get up and do it. They think it's just a part of my ~sarcastic personality~ but it was definitely something I used to cope with the fight or flight response. Especially since I couldn't respond that way to my teachers or my boss, being able to be like "NO 😝" to my family felt so good.
Lmaooooooo I always did the same thing but I never realized it was anything beyond me being goofy... But I also DID always respond that way to my teachers/babysitters/pretty much anyone in any position ever. While I may have been a charming & amusing nightmare, I was often a nightmare nonetheless. 🙃
Sometimes I say to myself, “ get off of the Internet, stop being on TikTok“ and then I see a video like this that is so healing to me to be able to be a part of this conversation. To feel validated and NORMAL, even if it’s too late, even if it was my entire childhood, just being able to see a woman of color, explaining things in a way that makes sense, and I love that this video is us learning together. Most videos just show a portion of information as if it is everything available, and I like that this was an introduction into the topic. this comment didn’t necessarily have great grammar, but I hope that’s OK because it’s hard to see the keyboard through tears of relief.
Compliance is literally the most horrible word, it turns my stomach! And school systems in general, it was so awful for most of my time in school, I struggled with nonsensical rules, and bad hypocritical rude teachers.. I don’t have a diagnosis and never until about a month ago have I ever thought I might be autistic - but on my therapy sessions my therapist pointed out that I sound like one with potential PDA autism. So many things you talk about I can relate to and those examples you mention, sometimes I’m literally laughing out loud saying “omg me too” - but I’m not sure still whether I’m actually autistic. I find it hard to conceptualise symptoms on the spectrum and only heard/read stories so far from people “much more autistic” than I think mayself to be, which makes me question if I’m at all and feel like a fraud😢 confusing.. Thank you for your great videos, they’re making me feel so much better😊
It's hard to explain the nightmare of high-masking PDA even to other autistic people. The incredible violence of just being in the world, learning that even your own needs and desires are threats, let alone what everyone else needs from you (much of which will end up being scams). Forcing yourself to comply because you're already masking, dissociating the very idea of purpose from your sense of self because it's all just something you will be made to do. Hearing about PDA was the first thing that made me really consider that I might be autistic, because the ways I mask are very unusual. That's about it as far as having something positive to say, I've been struggling trying to approach unmasking because my coping strategies have mostly been denial and dissociation. Y'know, avoidance. of demands. to a *pathological* degree.
Yeahhhhhhh, I've been considering the potential I have more than ADHD for a little bit, since a recent burnout... And now, watching this video, it's feeling far too salient for me to ignore.
What makes pda different from regular demand avoidance (which everyone has sometimes) is that the need for autonomy consistently overrides other basic survival instincts like going to the bathroom and sleep and eating. It’s not conscious either- it’s not simply avoiding something because you don’t want to comply (logical reasoning), it’s an inrefutable NEED to avoid because your body and mind is CONVINCED you’ll DIE if you do it, causing your nervous system to immediately activate into fight flight freeze and fawn- no time for thoughts in between. if demands don’t create a trauma response in you - You probably don’t have Pathological demand avoidance 😅
I relate so much to your teacher story. In COLLEGE they started this policy where your attendance affects your grade and like .. that doesnt make sense at all.
Oh my god. I’m taking a class this semester where an adjunct professor graded on WHETHER OR NOT YOU SPOKE IN CLASS (1-2 points depending). It made me so angry and just because I knew I was being graded on it, most of the time, I didn’t say a word. I have the lowest participation score in the class. Just knowing I HAD to speak for a grade was it for me. So incredibly frustrating 😅
@@brisbreathing that's some bullshit. It's things like this that make me think F it, I'll get some accommodations just so I don't have to follow dumb rules.
The 'leveling' model feels, to me, like it's superficially plausible but misses the real mechanism. For instance, if someone does something that irritates me, I think I just need to be irritated for a while, and have that be OK. That can easily become or lead to some form of retaliatory act that fits the 'leveling' model. An expression of irritation becomes a retaliatory act when both parties perceive it as such. However, I don't actually care if we're 'even'-more than that, I do not want relative social status to be salient and am likely to be more irritated if it becomes salient. The dynamic I experience is more like this: I'm irritated; I express that in some way; the other person perceives that as hostility directed at them personally; they get defensive; I see their reaction and back-form a model of my own intent based on it. I perceive my own action as personal hostility toward them _because_ they perceive it that way. Furthermore, if they understand personal hostility in terms of relative social status, _now_ it's about social status. My expression of emotion gains all these other meanings based on what I see reflected back from people around me. If, on the other hand, what I see reflected back is, "yeah, you're irritated, that's OK", it gains none of those meanings, the emotion simply dissipates.
In erinrackham's tik-tok, she seems to be ambivalent on this point-she describes her own impulses in terms of 'leveling', but her other comments seem more consistent with a model in which the emotional reaction doesn't inherently have any target, goal, or meaning.
When you asked what it would look like to have a parent to be there for you and help you regulate in those moments, a channel on RUclips called The Gentle Life immediately came to mind. Watching videos and shorts from @thegentlelife is a roller coaster of emotions because I can feel simultaneously happy and thankful that those kids are being well taken care of by such gentle parents who keep trying their best to learn more and better accommodate their children's needs while, at the same time, also feeling my entire childhood trauma rearing its head as I feel absolutely distraught by what I had to go through as a little girl and mourn the loss of this alternate life I could have had but never did.
I have been to those autisim conferences and it was all about kid's with autism me beimg diagnosed as an adult found it very hard yo relate love you're videos irene you aresuch a genuine intelligent woman
on internalizing PDA: its been such a revolutionary discovery but what people have mostly assumed is "shyness" is more like a deep resistance and resentment of other peoples demands and treatment of me
Yeah, most of my childhood meltdowns happened when people where trying to push me too hard to do something...when i got stuck in the NO zone things went very badly. Nowadays either i push myself hard to do something or i wont do anything at all. I will just float around...and when im pushing myself to do something i always want to do something else. Even if something else was what i didnt want to do before 😂. Omg
Undiagnosed autistic diagnosed w CPTSD and borderline traits. PDA feels very familiar. My legal guardians were in their late 60s early 70s when they adopted me and I was very much abused and neglected. I tried to get emancipated in highschool to no avail.
As a person who is pda autistic, I feel that much of the research, articles, and surrounding information about it is only written from an outside, neurotypical perspective. Even autistic people that aren't pda often seem to miss it too. For me it's not just "needing control over the situation." Any external concept that conflicts with the action that I'm currently doing is registered as a threat, and it's not possible for me to not be affected by demands negatively and intensely. The name "Pathological Demand Avoidance" is extremely dehumanizing.
44:23 This is how I experience PDA. I definitely respond with fawn/freeze, and I am currently trying to find another psychologist for re-assessment, because I am diagnosed with a personality disorder and bipolar, but I don’t feel I have either, especially based on the treatments and treatment outcomes. Personality/mood disorder treatments do not work for PDA/Autism, ADHD, CPTSD, or a physical pathology.
Ok. Example for a PDA internalizer: Being defiant in my childhood home got me beaten with a leather belt by a 200 lb man, so I learned to study the people who had any type of hand over my autonomy. I never trust any of them, but I have to study them well enough so I can trust them to be who they are. At that point I can do my best to manipulate situations in my favor. At the very least, doing this allows me to feel some power in my interactions with these people.
And theres definitely a reason why there are less people of color saying anything about autism;. more than likely it gets ignored and they don't receive care for any neurological or mental deficiencies which is something that needs to change. People of color are often overlooked and ignored in those aspects.
Irene, thank you so much for sharing this exploration. I (50 F she/we) am in limbo between my intake and evaluation for autism. I believe that I am PDA. I identify more with the demand anxiety than the need to be in control. You found videos that included the passive type. I hadn't seen that yet. I've always known that I am passive and avoidant. It's only in the past few years, thanks mostly to RUclips, that I have really started to understand myself.
I can really relate to this! But one thing i learned with age is that, while procrastinating things are generaly bad and someting i really need to fight more or less constantly because it is a destructive thing, questioning social hiearacies and be capable of think independent is on the other side incredibly important and someting i still do encurage. (English is not my native language...)
Wanted to show an example for me ahout being an internalizer: Boss tells me to do something that i dont agree with. ... I say ok great (fawning bc nervous system is activated and feeling hateful, yhis perosn is wrong. So maybe conciously itritated with them, but not conciously knowing that its bc of PDA ) So then i will just literally not do it. Or i will do it in a different way than they asked and just sort of justify to myself and them that that is what they asked for. Before knowing about PDA most of thia would be unconcious. I would also have trouble actually accomplishing the doing of the thing that i didnt want to do, and probably in the meantime telling myself like 'wtf, why cant you do this, its just one tiny thing'.... Which maybe was what the perosn was talking about about internalizing and making it your fault.... Sorry for typos for some reason i cant type well on youtube comments.
I totally do that as well. Yep, get right on that, proceed to not even begin to do it. Another way I cobbled control was beating my boss to a task. So when he told me to do it, I could say, already did it. Best part of my day, so much dopamine lol
I was like this as a young child. My parents would have to carry me kicking and screaming to go somewhere I didn’t want to go, I had to be taken to the hospital and pinned down and injected because I wouldn’t take my medicine etc. But by around school age, I became like depressed/shy/fawn response. By like 17 it turned into still depressed lol but outgoing and freeze response when I was faced with something I didn’t want to do. I’ve been in a depression like all year and I’m looking like moving into my car within the next week and it’s below freezing and I’m scared of the cold but still seems like my preferred option 😂 I just want to be on my own so I can heal away from the demands of others ❤
All of this. I homeschooled seven children in a patriarchal church and there was a Demand from someone at all times. I had to literally run away in the end.
The part where you said how you can study for a test and pass completely forget all of the knowledge immediately after passing holy shit you just as grabbed my whole life’s conundrum! I’ve learned how to tell time on a clock at least 12 times in my life, and I forget how every single time bc I can tell the time on my phone at all times what’s the point😅
Learning more and more about PDA opens my eyes to so many things about myself and my daughter. I've so often been accused of giving my daughter too much power and over explaining things but her and I are both PDA autistic and this is how we work. I can't tell her "you have to wear your helmet just because you do", because it sounds like bs even to me. I explain the safety reasons behind rules, and she still constantly asks me "why do moms make the rules" and there's this part of me that's like ***i don't!**. The rules that are for safety are there for safety, i don't decide that, for the most part physics and biology do. And she makes the rules for her own body because it's her body, i also don't decide that. So like. Authority doesn't make sense to me either in most cases, collaborative or mutual efforts are generally better. This mode of thought is so hard for people around me to understand and i don't know any better way to explain it. It was nice to see you explore this topic authentically much the same way i feel many of your audience like myself experience learning about PDA.
I definitely do not relate to this but I think my sister definitely does. This was really helpful in understanding her thought process better, which I can hopefully help to explain to my mom
Thank you so much for this. Of all the channels about living while autistic, I have never felt as seen as I do when watching your content. I’m going to have my family watch this with one with me. Separately, PDA research mostly comes from the UK. The U.S. dominant discourse in mental health doesn’t recognize PDA as anything. Of the 20+ therapists and doctors I’ve had and the mental health faculty I work with in my job, none of them were familiar with or even recognized the term. It’s really unfortunate. My hope is that as more autistic folks go into the mental health field that will change.
As always, ms. irene you illuminate, inform, and clarify on many vital subjects. I'm appreciative and grateful for your courage, your sincerety, and simply your existence. Thank you.
Oh wow, this was so informative! At first the description didn't seem like anything applicable to me, but after a while I saw a lot of similarities to how I react or feel in certain situations. I don't have autism, but I have adhd. So even if I don't have this, I have an intense aversion to being told what to do, especially if I was already going to do it. I have felt the fight or flight, and have literally left work after panicking when I was told to go to a different department to train (being forced makes me feel so trapped). My nervous system is definitely activated, and even when my husband says something that I take as "what I should do" I react very defensively, many times in a way that takes him completely off guard. Over time I think about it, and once I process it I realize he has good intentions and what he said was a valid point.
I'm lucky to live in a culture where student-teacher interactions aren't that formal I have a tendency to treat teachers like any other person and have had many spontaneous casual conversations that probably wouldn't fly in many places
As a mixed person of colour, I have diagnosed ADHD since 13, I'm 27 now and am planning to arrange my "Bother" assessment because I'm really struggling with school. I cry on the way every time and I'm only in my first semester.. I know you are interested in hearing from maybe people like me, being an adult too. Erin Rackman really hit it on the head for me with her observation of PDA in adulthood & in partnerhood.
There’s so much I could say, but ultimately I just want to say thank you for this channel. It’s hard to find people who understand how to present content with balance. You show us your findings with research and anecdotal experience, but also do so through the lense of empathy and education. It’s imperative for people like you to exist in the world. Thank you.
Caraling to avoid being directed definitely resonates (being the creator of play and activities). I can also relate, resoundingly, to opposing authority figures by the logic of an unaligned and imbalanced hierarchy of power authority figures relinquished because they unfulfilled their roles: also got in trouble a lot for choices based on this thinking. Your observation that it is about logic is actually IT 🤩. Simply assuming rules don't apply or ignoring them in different contexts too. It helps to know the physiological responses are concrete..its not simply choices...🙌 needing to make my own mistakes ....this entire video😍
Thank you so much for this video. It was like you explained my personal life. I'm an undiagnosed woman but I'm 100% in on the spectrum. As a child I did not respect authority. I was constantly in trouble at school and even with my grandmother. I told her as long as she does not respect me I won't respect her either no matter the age. I was 7 maybe. I still, to this day, cannot accept that I need to do so many things I hate doing, just to earn the basic right to exist in this society. I learned to mask pretty well - I can come across all "normal" on a good day but im always aware I'm just acting which always makes me feel like the foreign object no matter what setting im in. I like my work but the real work for me is the acting. The obeying when I want to disagree. The little breaks to unmask come without me consenting to it, its tiring. Thank you so much.
6:24 I legit decided what career path I wanted in 5th grade and my motivation for school wasn’t grades. I just wanted to not get in trouble or have conflict at home.
This is a generalization what im about to say. The US education system is rooted back in earlier times, to make obedient workers, not to properly educate them or encourage them to be their best. There are a lot of problems with how US does education because it is based on outdated things (world is very different than 100-200 years ago). It is also not inclusive of all cultures. Just think how much is taught to just memorize facts and opinions, not to critically think. Not to be well rounded. Not to be who they are. These are just few examples of course, there are a lot more. A lot in society needs to evolve and get better, neurodiverse people are pointing it out.
I think I’ve seen the same thing, how our education system was built to produce factory workers. I think it’s about time our school systems experienced some changes
23:00 OKAY BUT GOOD!!!! Like holy shit, I don't personally think I have a streak on "non-compliance" myself despite heavily relating to every single thing said in this video, like I freak the fuck out when I don't understand something it doesn't seem Fair. But like, I literally cannot imagine a better response full of so much self-respect than just knowing how bullshit that situation was, getting up and Leaving. I probably would have burst out in tears, which is still Something, but still wow no like I clapped I'm so glad you did that genuinely.
This is one of the reasons I flunked out of high school. Between PDA, forgetting some of my homework and also working long hours while still in school I didn't do so well. All that plus Bipolar and divorce... One day I was sent to the office to talk to my counselor. It was a short visit because he put his hand on my thigh while talking to me. I was afraid to tell anyone. I was born in our near the Bay Area, in Vallejo. I still have trouble with boundaries and I'm 59. When I was in the Navy I got in trouble all the time because I didn't know my place the way my fellow sailors did. My wife seems to have studied a little about Autism because even though we only recently accepted it in me she's very good at asking me to do things in advance and not suddenly. I usually internalize but it builds up and comes out eventually. Thanks so much for doing this video. I saw other videos on this but now I can actually understand it.
I’ve seen so many PDA videos around after my own specialist diagnosed me with this profile last year that I am now PDAing further learning about PDA. What a life.
I feel conflicted with the PDA profile because I very much relate the experiences or situations I feel very unethical about. However, for some reason I still crave routine and schedule from others as I don’t trust myself. It just that if I feel that your morals are off, I start to experience the PDA profile.
3:54 OMG that definition literally describes my life! I experience crippling panic attacks and have strong physiological reactions! It has impact my heart and now I take beta blockers to prevent future heart damage!
This is one thing I'm very grateful with my mom. She always treated me with respect and whenever she asked me to do something she was always willing to explain the why behind it and if I still felt reluctant about it she was able to regulate me most of the times like "I know it doesn't make sense, but unfortunately it has to be done". I got frustrated sometimes yes, but her ability to treat me as a person capable of understanding (as every child should be treated) really helped. Of course I struggled the most in school but I was grateful to have her to back me up.
I've always been aware that when someone makes any sort of suggestion to me my first response is "No. Don't tell me what to do." Then a few days later I'm able to think it through and consider it as a reasonable suggestion. But I can't accept any suggestions at the time, it always takes me a few days to warm up to anything even if it's actually a really good suggestion (even if it's something I was actually thinking of myself). I've only recently accepted that I'm autistic so PDA autism is completely new to me.
I really feel you on all your points. It's how I felt all my life, too, except I'm the internalized version of PDA. Instead of daring to challenge authority, I just imploded in on myself. My entire life revolves around avoidance, because that's how I avoid demands from others, since conflict and confrontation feel so visceral to me. I wish I could reboot my life and challenge all the authoritarian tyrants in my life and defeat them with logic. SallyCat wrote a good run-down of the internalized version that I really relate to. I think the reason PDA or demand avoidance feels like a nervous system disorder is because demands get registered as a threat to the system, ie like trauma. If you face demands that first of all, don't make sense ("I'm the teacher, so you have to do what I say") when we as autistic people tend to place logic very highly, and second, don't match your capabilities due to autism, and third, have ridiculous consequences if you don't comply (and you may be extra sensitive to negative input due to autism), they will most definitely register as threats, especially because you feel like no matter what you're trapped. The people making the demands disregard your worth as a person, dismiss your arguments and altogether gaslight you, so it naturally becomes a primal feeling to protect your autonomy. Having a whole different OS than the general population would make PDA appear very early, because our experiences in general just don't match that of other people, in every way - which is why I think you can't just pinpoint to one event in your life. It's like CPTSD, it's multiple small 'insignificant' events, but significant enough to get lodged into your amygdala. In that sense, PDA makes a lot of sense as a protective response. I think for me being so intimidated by others turned a lot of my PDA inwards, because it only ever felt safe to rebel against myself - with the consequences that it's nearly impossible for me to actually do any of the things I really want (drawing, writing, reading, gaming, other projects, ie SPECIAL INTERESTS... and ofc regular chores especially), and it's just so frustrating. I can only do things I haven't set myself up to do at all, like watching endless videos on autism XD. Way to keep depression going, lol! I try to reframe things I want to do as 'wants' and I ask myself 'what do I want to do' instead of what should I do, but if there's still just a small 'I SHOULD do this' in the back of my mind, I get blocked. I absolutely hate it and just want it to go away, sigh. If only my mind would stop compensating for my lack of standing up for myself outwardly by standing up against myself on every little thing..
I absolutely love your content and share with many people. My experience growing up was one in which standing up for my values resulted in targeted abuse towards myself and siblings. It took me into my thirty’s before I could really begin to trust people again. I thought something was wrong with me until I was diagnosed and began therapy. I just couldn’t imagine what would have been waiting at home if I had walked out of that classroom….. something to consider when you imagine how someone may come to believe there is something wrong with them.
I watched this with my wife and we both noticed PDA signs in ourselves. We also recognized, that school played a big part in how demands affect us. Just by the fact that we got bombarded with demands, especially when the demands are usually too difficult and overwhelming.
Just somebody calling me triggers it, because most people have the expectation that you will pick up the phone. Same with text messages, just because you sent me a text means i have to take the time to respond now? That's why it takes me weeks sometimes, like fuck you we will make contact when i'm ready.
For the actual PDA - where you WANT to do the thing but because someone else said to it's like Nope. Not doing it. When I was eight, my grandma told me probably one of the most powerful things I needed to know - Refusing to do something because someone told you to is Still letting them control you. Thanks to her telling me that, I am able, in those moments, to take that step back and evaluate which thing _I_ actually _want_ to do. Not just how did them asking make me feel in that moment. Doesn't always work with anything - but I suspect it's gotten me a lot further than I ever expected before I learned PDA was a thing.
I feel like a lot of later diagnosed people on the spectrum that I know share that their parents are 'eggshell , narcissistic, immature' parents. And I wonder how many of those parents are also on the spectrum. Because the more I learn about my autism the more I think my mom is autistic and had a hard time identifying my 'differences'.
I can resonate with this form of autism a little bit. When I was a kid I remember my dad trying to teach me how to ride a bike so much but because he was telling me to ride a bike I just didn't do it. Recently my dad told me that when I was little he got me a scooter also. He said that it looked like I fell off the scooter on purpose just so I wouldn't have to learn how to do it.
Word!! I couldn’t figure out the rules and felt like I was constantly at a loss of what to do. I couldn’t depend on anyone to guide me, and nearly every adult was just a spiteful hypocrite. It was always about convenience with adults, and I never felt like I was being raised/allowed to be a child. There wasn’t any consistency to what I learned (worked for my peers or others) whenever it came to me. It was like playing a game in which nothing I did mattered because I was glitched and it always ended in a loss/low score/no gains…then I was forced to move onto the next level with little to no help/no buffs/items. I don’t know if I have PDA Autism, but I related to the internalized one. I might of gone from externalizer to internalizer. I definitely socialized and was in need of attention (safe/healthy kind) but ended up trying to cope without it most of the time. Super relate to being abandoned/neglected and punishment. A lot of lecture about being grateful for what I even got though the difference in treatment was apparent. Nobody made sure I was okay, but someone definitely made sure I wasn’t when I was fine/happy/normal. I’ve seen the last tiktok and was unsure without proper context/examples/memories, but PDA Autism is really starting to resonate with me (especially from the internalized experience). Thanks for sharing and sending digital air hugs for child you up to adult you ❤️
Just want to mention an extremely good video I saw about this, and the reason I didn't watch this video I'm commenting on. First, why i didn't watch this video. I have dealt with SO MUCH bullshit related to people not understanding why I was less than 100% enthusiastic about doing something that it is an extreme trigger for me. I cannot sit through a reading of the technical definitions of PDA as the way it is defined misses so far off the mark as to be (in my case) actively destructive to understanding the way I function and why. I find it triggering to the point that i'f i'm not careful I can find myslfe looking off the edge of a cliff wondering if it wouldn't just be better to let go than keep going. That being said, I truly love your content, and deeply appreciate your ability to so clearly express yourself and things that I have been unable to put into words. After watching your video about Ego Death, I put you on the level with austistamatic in depth of appreciation and a go to for when I feel it would be constructive to share a video to help someone understand. There is no higher regard I could have for your content, and I hope this conveys the respect and appreciation I have for you and my referencing this video is not received as intending to in any way take away from that. If it is, please let me know and give me the opportunity to address it. This is the video that hit me like a ton of bricks when I saw it, and if the two of you were ever to have a conversation together it would be a dream come true. autistamatic - When NO Doesn't Mean NO - PDA & Autism PDA Part 1 (Pathological Demand Avoidance) ruclips.net/video/A-oS-BChBvU/видео.html
I’m so glad I’m not the only one upset with the lack of resources and studies for autistic adults. I’ve tried finding a therapist in my area that has experience or is somewhat able to help treat a late diagnosed autistic adhd adult and there isn’t one. I’ve reached out so many times only to be told that they only treat children and adolescents. It’s like even therapists and social workers who are supposed to help people dont accommodate adults with autism.
My inners are crying every time you have deep insight, as you you describe your experiences it's like you were there, only you have a voice, as 45 single mother & still wondering why am I so different let alone worried because my kids going through it too. Humble thank yous for the love of the collective.
Just because someone “tells me to do something “has never been a good enough reason for me to actually do something. I have always needed to see the reason why it would be worth doing, in order to make it happen. The section on compliance really hit hard.
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In 8th grade, the kid behind me stabbed me in the back with a pencil. I yelled at him. I was the one who got in trouble because I disturbed the class by yelling (in anger/pain). The teacher told me to sit outside and "cool off". Outside. In Alaska. In winter. No. Next it was "go to the office". Fine, that's warmer and you (teacher) are useless. Wait, wait, wait. No one comes to admonish me, so they send me to the next class. Turns out to be my 3rd time being late to class. "Go to the office." Took the Vice Principal a few minutes to figure out why I was there. Called my parents. I was in trouble ... for something. All the adults agreed, after hearing the whole story-and actually believing me-that I needed to be punished ... for something. So, 2 days of in-school suspension. Had to go sit in an unused office for 2 days ... for something.
Turns out the "something" was the adults needing to feel power and in-charge. That's it.
All (most) of the adults in my life at the time demanded respect, but rarely did anything worthy of receiving it. I ended up going to an "alternative" high school and, while still tough (rarely) was such a good place for me.
Very relatable. They really love to punish kids and put them in their place even when it's totally uncalled for. I can't see how they think that's a recipe for respect.
Holy moly this is so amazing. “For something”… You really articulated well that constant feeling (I have always had) of “everyone seems to be running on some sort of script, but I can see you’re missing this, and this, and all of that over there, and these things, and you’re wrong about xyz, and why are you punishing the wrong person and is anyone going to listen to me???” but somehow we’re the ones who are always wrong. And then there are the adults who listen, agree with you, yet still join in with “othering” you, because it’s what everyone else is doing. For something. Wow. I bet many of us FELT your frustration in that moment while reading it.
I also now tell any and all “elders” who even begin to try the whole “respect me” nonsense with me… “Respect is earned, not obligated, and I don’t know you, and you’re being rude, so…. no. Be nice, and I will *treat you* with respect, but whether I respect you remains to be seen.” They don’t like it. And I’m 50+.
I wonder how many others can relate to you as strongly? I also experienced frequent punishments for disruption and tatteling because the kid next to me would punch me in the arm and kick my legs as hard as he could, yet I was the one sent out of class and eventually hidden away alone in a corner with a box around my desk. Might as well have said dunce. Still in my mind this feels as if I were being punished for standing up for myself or needing help or intervention somehow.. I felt as if everyone hated me for existing.
I definitely prefer the autistic version: ‘persistent drive for autonomy’. I feel like calling it pathological demand avoidance is so gross! It’s totally neurotypical people’s way of pathologising valid critiques of how our systems oppress us. I think it makes totally sense for us to be horrified that we don’t get choices in life and that we have to waste our time being beaten down by institutions like school and our jobs. In my opinion they created the PDA model to further strip away our autonomy, because now when we freak out about how something is unjust or doesn’t make sense it’ll be seen as a symptom, rather than a valid problem! Great video as always, so thankful for your channel and the time and effort you put into your videos
Edit: loool the ‘compliance’ thing is making me laugh. Literally me and my partner were just talking the other day about how triggering the word ‘compliance’ is
“Persistent drive for autonomy” is a core tenet of my spirituality I’m
Pathalogical demand compliance 😂😭
i think “persistent drive for autonomy” has genuinely been the main driving force for how I approached life from childhood. I’ve always had an almost obsessive level of wanting independence and autonomy from a very young age.
You wrote the comment I wanted to say, and I guess you will get all the likes ❤
I kind of like 'pathological demand avoidance' because it's so transparent-'this is someone who doesn't do what I want, and I believe that not doing what I want is a pathology'. It's more insulting to neurotypicals than to anyone else, since it is so obviously authoritarian, egotistical, and pathologizing.
The thing about these things in school: you're right about them. You are not the problem. The school rules are.
That first article enrages me to my core. The amount of false intentions the writer of the article puts on innocent overwhelmed children just infuriates me.
I’m a black women resonating with PDA autism after exploring it in therapy with a mix of ADHD. Not going to generalize the entire black community but more often than not, mental health issues are not discussed or accurately recognized. My parents were both social workers so that helped but still had their pitfalls. Some of what you stated about your mom resonated with my own mother too, especially the questioning what I’m wearing when I just wanted to express myself how I wanted to express myself at times. I’ve noticed that mental health isn’t as brushed under the rug and more accepted with my white women friends. Whereas black women sometimes don’t have the luxury of mental health disorders, we are just generalized as angry, modern, crazy… not allowing to have trauma until we go to therapy and allowed to have that space. Literally only there so it’s a gem to find black women who openly talk about this on social media.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I’d imagine the ‘angry black woman’ stereotype doesn’t help either. Another senseless concept to be rightfully enraged about.
Damn, as someone else who struggles big time with PDA, I can’t imagine how much racialization as a black woman particularly could play a big role in the experience of PDA and people’s reactions to make it that much harder to deal with. Hope you’re doing okay.
There is something I can't put my finger on with mental health in general, that it's a "luxury" for the luckiest of people, so from a lot of communities the prevailing wisdom is press f to ignore. Who cares what the rich and powerful are up to? We gotta eat. It's hard finding that you are sorta in the situation where you either spend money on food or medicine but you can't afford both, so how do you handle that mentally, by telling yourself a story I guess that really you're not that hungry or that you've been feeling better anyway. Love you, hope you don't have too much trouble with medicals, honestly I'd be hesitant with a white doctor unless you really like them.
I feel the same way towards not being enough autistic POC. It makes it really hard to feel seen, when there’s barely anyone who looks like me
Exactly. I’m glad there’s info reaching people, but it feels like another case of non-white experiences/struggles going unheard/erased. It started out with only autistic white boys…it would really help break the stereotype if we had better, diverse representation.
Then make a channel and videos! What's the difference? The difference is the people you're watching decided to make videos and/or stream. So what's stopping you?
Any PDA freezers and fawners here?
@@its.Lora.an interesting response to a comment on a video about PDA. Not going to lie. This honestly comes off as bossy and forward to say in general IMO.
@@its.Lora.Not everyone is cut out to be a RUclipsr. Even if they might want to be one.
The 1/5 quality work makes absolute sense to me, school rules can often times be arbitrarily made that it drives me up the friggin wall.
I remember learning that my emotions weren't allowed in school and the last time I authentically responded to something that brought me joy, I was so excited to do an art project I started panting; I also love dogs obsessively, always have. I was sent to time out in the hallway. In fourth grade. I was mortified. Mind you this is the same school that covered an amab classmates desk with paper because he drew on everything.
32:00 actually is really relatable. I used to constantly wear shorts, my mum used to constantly tell me “It’s cold outside, why are you wearing shorts?” And even though I knew I’d be freezing all day, I choose not to change because her simply saying that somehow irked me enough to feel like I needed to prove myself.
Similar experience here! 🥶😅😅
I think this really ties into that strong sense of fairness. Unearned authority to override another equal person's equal right to agency is inherently unfair. Thanks for talking about this. Around 12:07 onwards through to the end really resonated with me.
I just found this on socials today….”sometimes people mean respect to mean treating someone like a person. And sometimes they mean it like treating them as an authority. For some, they say if you don’t respect me I won’t respect you. But what they mean is, if you don’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person. And that is not ok”
Today on it turns out that yes, there’s a kind of human where it’s like. No. That’s objectively evil why can’t you tell other humans are human and why doesn’t it delight you to bits. Tf is wrong with you. Scary but also grow up???
Haha I’m real
@@DeJaVuNous people expecting it to be polite to put up with that when it’s like Ohh buddy this is why there are revolutions, we’re both people
Dehumanization even in the etymology of the word acknowledges its subject as human. Like Pls
I think there's a relationship between the two (PDA & a sense of fairness). Personally, I'm kind of 'over' fairness (and think moral impulses of this kind have net negative effects), but I still deal with demand avoidance.
(When I was younger, though-fairness & hypocrisy were very important issues to me.)
[A reply to a now-deleted comment] I don't agree that that's what authority should mean (being coercive), but agree that earned trust in another is absolutely vital to being able to happily defer to another. @@justicetrooper
I remember being very aware of having PDA (without knowing why) as a child and teen and constantly telling my parent to not ask me to do certain things "I was about to do it but you asked me and now I don't want to", "if you stopped asking me I would do it, please stop asking me to do it" but I don't think they ever understood and trust that I would do the things by myself so they kept asking.
It is so interesting and illuminating to be able to look back on those kind of things with context now.
Thank you again for your videos, they are incredibly useful and impactful! ❤
The internalized PDA more than makes sense to me, maybe I could help? **TW self harm, ED** For me, my upbringing was abusive and overbearing, and I was forced to comply or be met with rage, so I could only express my frustration alone. I started to cut as the only way to get the violent tendencies out, and I definitely learned to yell at myself for being useless or lazy, as well as developing other control tactics like anorexia. When your outside world is hostile to the point where you even hinting at your unhappiness could be catastrophic, you can only try to control yourself. It creates a super fucked-up mask.
9:24 WOW I’ve never heard anyone else verbalize this concept outside of my family! My daughter has been this way from birth! She doesn’t see age/authority everyone is just another human and her thoughts and values are equal with everyone else’s…even at 4 & 5 years old. Her kindergarten teacher had a difficult time with understanding this..& I literally explained it to the teacher.
Girl I FEEL you with finding mainly children-geared articles and studies, the internet is sorely lacking adult ASD information. Comparatively speaking of course. I’ve even been tempted to make my own channel too. What you’re doing for yourself and your viewers is so important to the community, thank you so much for sharing your insight and personal stories with us ❤️
I'm unsure if I have PDA, but especially all these rules about respect have always riled me up. I love to follow rules but when the rules don't make sense im immediately put off, why can't i rest myself the way i want if i still listen as good as everyone else? why should i respect a teacher, someone i don't know and have never truly met. Why should i use your second name while you use my first? And I have always and still do these things but out of terror. I'm very sensitive so even the lightest wrong tone or no makes me cry and my experiences with teachers and trying to explain myself or advocate for myself have ended badly.
I think part of the PDA is not seeing most of the benefits for working within a social hierarchy while still having all of the pressure. If other people appreciate my work or enjoy my company, if they aren't SUPER explicit about it, I won't know they feel that way, and even if they are explicit I probably wouldn't believe them. The positive reinforcement feedback rarely has any effect; you can't just pat me on the back, say "good job", and expect me to feel anything if actions don't back it up. On the other hand, responsibility creates more opportunities for other people to judge you negatively, and the penalties often do tend to be real, although sometimes we get the emotional attacks as a bonus. You don't get a promotion, you get a bad grade or review, friends stop inviting you out, etc. If I'm not objectively outworking my coworkers, being overly nice and caring with friends (way more so than they are with me), etc., I will get punished for it, and it is quite draining and tricky to put forth that much effort without promising more than I can handle, and other people asking me to do extra stuff on top of that can push me over the edge. I definitely feel the need to obsessively control what I'm responsible for, for fear of very real consequences compared to negligible benefits.
You expressed my struggle so well. I feel the same. My heart sank a bit reading your text. But thank you. This so is so real.
hi yes yes yesy eysyesyeysyeys UGH
I feel you. I've recently stopped offering or even agreeing to do any of the extra stuff expected of me at work because I'm always expected to take it on but then always get complained at because "so and so cheated at trivia!" "we didn't get the food we wanted!" "this activity SUCKED!" etc. I'm a supervisor, not a party planner, but I'm expected to act like the parent of 80+ overgrown toddlers who don't like what I offer, refuse to respond when I ask for suggestions, and still insist that I pour my time, money, and energy into SOMETHING that they're just going to whinge about. 😑
The article at the beginning of the video states how "children with PDA" are socially manipulative people, as if its not done to get out of impossible situations created by others acting ableist
On the topic of internalize/freeze/fawn I think of it as a situation in which someone feels that "bracing for impact" is the reliable response rather than trying to fight or get away from the physiologically threatening situation when faced with it.
If you grabbed my shoulder and spun me around right now it would be just the png of the this is fine dog
Thank you for that observation. I have trouble finding words for my internal experience, but this resonates with me.
Indeed! I also think of it as “the resolve to endure” since there are no other options.
Sounds right to me.
Wow, very good description. When there’s no room for fight or flight in the brain’s threat response (almost all of the time with PDA in our society), all there is is that awful, grating feeling of “bracing for impact” internalizing / freezing / fawning. With constant demands and expectations for behavior, the threat response feeling ends up ever-present, and life becomes that much harder to navigate.
You are amazing. I just want to say that. As gen X I went through much of the same things back in the 80’s and since then in the workplace and as time passes and I watch how gen Z is **tearing it all down** and finally speaking truths without being shut down, and finally demanding changes, the more excited I get. I’m so fucking proud of your generation. Everything you said felt like it came from my own soul screaming into the void for decades, and you’re so fantastic in how you so smoothly articulate it. You inspire me. Seriously. Also want to say that if you have a team, or put together a team, to expand what you’re doing, I’d be honored to work for/with you, because your messages, and HOW you express them, need to keep growing and I would love, for-f-ing-once, to get to work with someone whose mind “gets it”.
Literally shouted “F*CKING YES!” to what you said about if you’re blaming and scapegoating a child, look at your own behavior, and if you want a child to be compliant and engaged, engage with that child. I don’t have children, I was convinced I’d bring a new generation of broken, messed-up kids into the world because I always felt like a broken, messed-up kid, even well into adulthood. It’s so refreshing to see us as a society finally inching away from that “respect your elders unquestioningly” crap.
I'm someone who needs discipline or structure to be able to function but at the same time I find myself going against the rules I set for myself.
It’s such a struggle
Your commentary on kids and parenting is pretty accurate, for real. Kids learn by modeling. You show them, with your own behavior, and that is how they actually learn. From what you do. Positive parenting education talks a lot about modeling.
Absolutely. The notion that all kids are just supposed to read adults and automatically understand nuance or whatever is just, ugh.
This is my problem with jobs, I struggle SO much with work. Why am I doing something I HATE, something that's literally damaging to my mental and physical health so I can barely survive? I've been employed AND literally starving, not able to afford rent, or pay for my meds/doctors bills and the solution is work more? What so I can have more meltdowns and hurt myself more than I already am? I've worked SO hard to get where I am with my mental health, and I value that, but am terrified of how bad I can get. I just wanna be self employed, but I don't even know where to start and I have responsibilities to think about. Sorry rant, I get really worked up about this
Irene, your videos have been more helpful to me than any therapy sessions I've ever been to. I don't have the language to express how truly grateful I am for your videos, you have helped me so much to articulate my struggles with autism and understand what I'm feeling and why. Your videos bring me to tears at some points, I feel such a weight off my chest knowing I am not the problem and there are many people like me who know this pain. Thank you from the bottom of my heart please never stop making content
Omg this!!!!!!! So true these help so much with verbalizing for me too
Excited to hear your thoughts on this, Irene! I often explain what it’s like having PDA by telling someone to imagine that to get *anything* done, even things I want to do, it’s like forcing myself to put my hand on a hot stove burner - at every turn, my brain goes into survival mode and screams, “DON’T TOUCH THAT!”
Finding out about PDA is actually the first time I considered I might be autistic. I only heard about PDA autism because I lived in the UK at the time, and it is much more widely recognised there as a “subtype” or profile of the autism spectrum. For some reason, it’s not really known in the USA.
Now that I am back stateside, it sometimes feels extra isolating to know how much PDA affects *every* aspect of my life in a way that others (even allistic neurodivergent people) don’t understand at all. And to be honest, I often feel like I’m so different from other autistic people that I don’t “belong” in that category either. I’ve come a long way with self love and acceptance, but it is very isolating. Every day, I feel like I have to gaslight and bribe myself in order to do anything. I wouldn’t change who I am for anything, but I would also never wish this type of pathological avoidance, internal fatigue / burnout, and social invisibility on even my worst enemy.
The example you gave especially the “DON’T TOUCH THAT,” - YOU’LL BE HURT, YOU’LL GET CAUGHT, YOU’RE WRONG YOU’RE ALWAYS WRONG
Like that is so viscerally Real for me I haven’t processed it yet. She resonates
I think I can clarify on that social media video where the person says that "things become her fault." take the example from the previous video with the "change of plans" scenario and assume the person is not as self aware or less able to cope with the disregulation. The train of thought doesn't go to "hey hubby I'm activated and I need to problem solve this with you" The train of thought goes "why am I like this? I know this isn't a big deal. I just said something so mean. No one should have to deal with me, this isn't acceptable" And then after the episode happens you try to fix it as if you can stop the response by changing something else in your life. For example your response might be "I'm so sorry I shut down like that, you were making good plans. I just feel so overwhelmed, it must be that I'm taking on too much, I should probably work less/cancel plans/go to therapy/exercise more (insert any number of self improvement solutions)"
So instead of trying to create communication strategies or co regulation which requires relational healing with another person, you work a never ending cycle of trying to take responsibility for your faults in isolation.
This is very relatable & I'm pretty sure that's where they were coming from... My process ends up going like : Because YOU'RE the one responding "wrong", it's "YOUR fault" & you need to fix it because the world & the people in it shouldn't have to accommodate you by default because no one is special, so if YOU don't do anything about it, you're The Problem™.
50:55 What this lady said was SPOT ON.
For me, I've both experienced the internalizer version and the externalizer version multiple times.
As a child or a younger adolescent age I was mainly an externalizer, but obviously with countless negative reactions to that my unconscious response was to repress and then internalize that PDA reaction.
This is how the dynamic works for me:
If someone triggers my PDA (in a more casual setting), I recognize those emotions and then try to go with a logical approach = setting boundaries, reasoning, explaining my stance, listening to their stance etc.
If the logical approach is not received well or respected I go into the *externalized* version of PDA = saying hurtful things, being snarky, shouting, violent behaviour.
Then after the major conflict, I'm still in my PDA state but, I go into the *internalized* version = start to shutdown, become non-verbal, start blaming myself, being ashamed of the hurtful things I said, and, endless crying.
I've also noticed that whenever I'm in an extremely vulnerable state - (I'm an age regressor, so I sometimes regress to the age of 7-9) I'm more prone to internalized PDA.
Also sorry that this is quite long :)
I may be autistic, but I am also A Goddamn Hater™ deep down inside and everything I've learned (from tiktok against my will) about PDA makes me think I probably have it, so consequently, I will not be watching this video out of spite against the universe! However, I love your channel so take my comment for ✨engagement✨
I've heard someone describe PDA autism as "an anxiety driven need for autonomy" and girl did that resinate. I spent soo much time feeling like a was just being difficult and stewing in self hatred for not being able to do anything, even things I really wanted to do, when they started to feel like a reality in the very near future. Like I just WANTED to be a proplem - nope, it's just the autism.
THIS!! Described me perfectly as a child, though I eventually realised that I could comply without buying into the game. People used to say that I'm an all or nothing kind of person, but really I was just a child who demanded consistency.
Understanding PDA has been helpful especially helping to raise my stepdaughter on the spectrum. Teaching her to take care of herself and learn basic chores is a very long process. For context - it took her to age 7 for her to wipe her own bum without adult help and now at age 10 is learning to get her own cup of water, put away her dishes, etc. We have been patient as she will still tell us “I want milk” and we remind her where the cups are and the milk. She will expressively tell us sometimes how she dislikes getting her own glass of milk while she is doing it. The last tik tok video was super helpful because she also doesn’t like to be alone and wants one of us to be with her always unless she is playing with someone on her iPad. Now I understand it’s for regulation as we always thought it was due to her anxiety. Maybe it’s both. Thanks for sharing the links!
as soon as i heard persistent drive for autonomy it made so much more sense to me. i hate pathological demand avoidance, it makes it sound like a conscious choice and just doesn’t sit right with me. persistent drive for autonomy is much more accurate in my opinion!
The first name vs last name is more to do with status to signify someone is in a work role. It could also be a child adult thing since even when parents come in to schools or interact with children usually you say the last name. Saying an adults first name is more of a familial or friend status. I guess you probably know this but the adults didn't explain it well.
@@jclyntoledo could you explain this a little more please?
the situation you talked about where you just walked out of the class is honestly so admirable, similar things happened to me in school and I would just freeze for the rest of the class. To be honest I still maintained the freeze response even in situations where I know or presume nobody is going to humiliate or hurt me if I disagree to rules haha. Nowadays I'm so quiet it makes people uncomfortable and I'm not sure how to change that. Adolescence was hard though specially with gender dysphoria and everyone saying that I should dress or behave a certain way otherwise they would treat me badly, etc. Some rules in this world just make no sense. (just a disclaimer: I'm not sure if I have PDA or autism for that matter, I just suspect it, but I definitely relate to both experiences)
This puts a lot of my life in perspective. I externalized until I learned it was safer to internalize and people please. But because I was scapegoating myself like the abusive people around me did, I started dissociating more until I felt like the ghost of a robot moving through life without knowing anything about myself. I didn't start healing until I met my husband, who has a lot of traits like mine. It allowed me to see that I wasn't as weird as I believed. Unfortunately, it took me a long time to figure out how to not be codependent and clingy. Self-love discovery is one of my special interests but even with them, if I put too much burden on myself to do them, I do nothing or switch to another special interest, as the dissociated parts of me learned different skills that helped me cope in one time or another.
Thank you for your video. I loved the way you read parts of the articles and shared your thoughts. I also love how open you were, while recognizing when you needed to step back from a topic due to emotions coming up.
Wow this is so profound and you really elevated my perspective with your additional comment here. Scapegoating myself because everyone else was. Wow, everything you said was so relatable! 😇
I avoid places like I only cook if no one else is the kitchen and other household chores. I think dyspraxia could be apart of it and I would make mistakes and get yeld at as if I did it on purpose. Any criticism makes me want to just leave.
i definitely despise having other people in the kitchen when i'm cooking. and I lived for over a decade with 2 people who refused to accept this issue, or literally any of my neurodivergence. it was unhealthy to say the least.
Eating in front of my family in restaurants: yeah sure
Eating in front of my family at home: NO NO NO N O
This is actually so relatable, there used to be a mirror that pointed towards the kitchen, and I’d constantly check that before ever entering the kitchen, to make sure “the coast is clear”. And I’d literally be so annoyed when the time where I’m hungry somehow is also when someone else is in there. I’ve gotten used to starving myself all day and waiting till midnight just to avoid people.
My mom liked screaming criticism at me when I was doing chores. I would refuse to do them when she was criticizing me. So she said I was lazy. But I wasn't lazy because I would do my chores fine when she wasn't home to yell at me.
@@jn1211Me too, makes me feel enraged and panicky
I am absolutely an internalizer! I’m not sure if this is the same as that one creator, but I can fully relate to feeling as if it’s my fault in a convoluted way. Since I was to avoid demands and also conflict, I will people please and try to anticipate everything on my own terms before it’s asked of me. Then when there are demands asked of me I get that anger or “activation” but it’s worsened by the fact that I have failed to anticipate those demands. So it really does feel like something that is my fault after building this pattern for years.
I’ve been working on dealing with this, but hadn’t actually put the pieces together 100% until this video!
I’m just gonna say, I love people like you. I’m sorry for how hard you had it, being so different from all the other kids. I ,definitely, am appreciative of your adult self because you still retained the qualities that make you awesome and real.
This is so interesting. I definitely relate to the “internalized” response to PDA so I found it really interesting when you said you couldn’t conceptualize it because immediately I had an “aha!” moment 😂 Basically I would (and still do sometimes) feel the emotional disregulation and I would shut down because in my head I believed it was something wrong with me. I am a bad kid. Why could other kids just so easily go along with demands while I got so mad and frustrated? I didn’t blame the authority figures I would blame myself for reacting the way I did. Almost like I hated my brain and body for feeling threatened. I can probably also attribute it to my upbringing. Instead of neglect, I would receive physical consequences for “not complying” so an external reaction on my part would escalate things to very physically unsafe levels. Also, my parents were very good at convincing me that the way I thought made me a bad child especially by using religion against me. As a child growing up in a strict evangelical church you might be able to defy the adults in your life but when you’re constantly being threatened with eternal damnation, you begin to ask yourself “Am I really such a bad child?”. Thankfully, I deconstructed a lot of that. At 30 years old now I still feel the emotional disregulation and anger, but I don’t blame myself or feel “broken, guilty, and wrong” and can handle things a lot more healthily with my partner.
I clicked with it as well! I'm glad to hear you've been able to process a lot of it and understand that none of it was your fault. And I have similarities in my childhood as well, like if I tried to defend myself, I was met with verbal abuse. I took the "lawyer" attitude and tried multiple tactics to defend myself, like yelling back, consoling the parent, having logical arguments or running away from the situation. In the end I noticed that nothing worked nor made it better. So I just shut down, sat there while it all happened and dissociated. And during all of it I blamed myself like "how could I had behaved so it wouldn't have happened?" and also blamed myself for feeling anger/frustration. So even later in other relationships I would be a huge people-pleaser, thinking that my emotional responses were overly dramatic and unjustified. It kinda fucks you up, when you still have a strong sense of justice and autonomy, but don't allow yourself to act upon on it (at least not until you reach that final meltdown phase).
holy mother of god -- im just sitting here with my jaw fucking dropped at my painfully deep resonance with most every word she is uttering
much love to all us
Agree about the literature aspect being written about autistic children but the thing is it’s not even written for the children. It’s written for the allistic parents/caregivers by allistic!! So as an autistic adult the language doesn’t really make sense because the language they use from an outsiders perspective is different from the internal experience. It makes the adult autistic experience quite isolating at times because these articles don’t accurately reflect me. One word in particular that annoys me is “obsessive” in particular with behaviours or “compulsions”. Yes there is a small amount of myself that does struggle with extremely graphic intrusive thoughts but honestly most of what they describe as “obsessive” feels logical. Anything that I do I do because it feels logical. It makes sense to me to have a “strict” routine but from an outsiders pov it seems “obsessive” what that isn’t how it FEELS!!!!! Trust me when I say anything that I do seems rational to me 99% of the time and then these allistic are describing me like I’m being controlled by some supervillain or something!?
Growing up I would always respond to any request from my family with a solid NO and a smile, and then get up and do it. They think it's just a part of my ~sarcastic personality~ but it was definitely something I used to cope with the fight or flight response. Especially since I couldn't respond that way to my teachers or my boss, being able to be like "NO 😝" to my family felt so good.
Lmaooooooo I always did the same thing but I never realized it was anything beyond me being goofy... But I also DID always respond that way to my teachers/babysitters/pretty much anyone in any position ever. While I may have been a charming & amusing nightmare, I was often a nightmare nonetheless. 🙃
Sometimes I say to myself, “ get off of the Internet, stop being on TikTok“ and then I see a video like this that is so healing to me to be able to be a part of this conversation. To feel validated and NORMAL, even if it’s too late, even if it was my entire childhood, just being able to see a woman of color, explaining things in a way that makes sense, and I love that this video is us learning together. Most videos just show a portion of information as if it is everything available, and I like that this was an introduction into the topic. this comment didn’t necessarily have great grammar, but I hope that’s OK because it’s hard to see the keyboard through tears of relief.
Compliance is literally the most horrible word, it turns my stomach! And school systems in general, it was so awful for most of my time in school, I struggled with nonsensical rules, and bad hypocritical rude teachers..
I don’t have a diagnosis and never until about a month ago have I ever thought I might be autistic - but on my therapy sessions my therapist pointed out that I sound like one with potential PDA autism. So many things you talk about I can relate to and those examples you mention, sometimes I’m literally laughing out loud saying “omg me too” - but I’m not sure still whether I’m actually autistic. I find it hard to conceptualise symptoms on the spectrum and only heard/read stories so far from people “much more autistic” than I think mayself to be, which makes me question if I’m at all and feel like a fraud😢 confusing..
Thank you for your great videos, they’re making me feel so much better😊
It's hard to explain the nightmare of high-masking PDA even to other autistic people. The incredible violence of just being in the world, learning that even your own needs and desires are threats, let alone what everyone else needs from you (much of which will end up being scams). Forcing yourself to comply because you're already masking, dissociating the very idea of purpose from your sense of self because it's all just something you will be made to do.
Hearing about PDA was the first thing that made me really consider that I might be autistic, because the ways I mask are very unusual. That's about it as far as having something positive to say, I've been struggling trying to approach unmasking because my coping strategies have mostly been denial and dissociation.
Y'know, avoidance.
of demands.
to a *pathological* degree.
Yeahhhhhhh, I've been considering the potential I have more than ADHD for a little bit, since a recent burnout... And now, watching this video, it's feeling far too salient for me to ignore.
What makes pda different from regular demand avoidance (which everyone has sometimes) is that the need for autonomy consistently overrides other basic survival instincts like going to the bathroom and sleep and eating. It’s not conscious either- it’s not simply avoiding something because you don’t want to comply (logical reasoning), it’s an inrefutable NEED to avoid because your body and mind is CONVINCED you’ll DIE if you do it, causing your nervous system to immediately activate into fight flight freeze and fawn- no time for thoughts in between. if demands don’t create a trauma response in you - You probably don’t have Pathological demand avoidance 😅
I relate so much to your teacher story. In COLLEGE they started this policy where your attendance affects your grade and like .. that doesnt make sense at all.
Oh my god. I’m taking a class this semester where an adjunct professor graded on WHETHER OR NOT YOU SPOKE IN CLASS (1-2 points depending). It made me so angry and just because I knew I was being graded on it, most of the time, I didn’t say a word. I have the lowest participation score in the class. Just knowing I HAD to speak for a grade was it for me. So incredibly frustrating 😅
@@brisbreathing that's some bullshit. It's things like this that make me think F it, I'll get some accommodations just so I don't have to follow dumb rules.
Agreed. I didn't even try because I feel like that wouldn't have done anything unfortunately
The 'leveling' model feels, to me, like it's superficially plausible but misses the real mechanism.
For instance, if someone does something that irritates me, I think I just need to be irritated for a while, and have that be OK. That can easily become or lead to some form of retaliatory act that fits the 'leveling' model. An expression of irritation becomes a retaliatory act when both parties perceive it as such. However, I don't actually care if we're 'even'-more than that, I do not want relative social status to be salient and am likely to be more irritated if it becomes salient.
The dynamic I experience is more like this: I'm irritated; I express that in some way; the other person perceives that as hostility directed at them personally; they get defensive; I see their reaction and back-form a model of my own intent based on it. I perceive my own action as personal hostility toward them _because_ they perceive it that way. Furthermore, if they understand personal hostility in terms of relative social status, _now_ it's about social status. My expression of emotion gains all these other meanings based on what I see reflected back from people around me. If, on the other hand, what I see reflected back is, "yeah, you're irritated, that's OK", it gains none of those meanings, the emotion simply dissipates.
In erinrackham's tik-tok, she seems to be ambivalent on this point-she describes her own impulses in terms of 'leveling', but her other comments seem more consistent with a model in which the emotional reaction doesn't inherently have any target, goal, or meaning.
When you asked what it would look like to have a parent to be there for you and help you regulate in those moments, a channel on RUclips called The Gentle Life immediately came to mind. Watching videos and shorts from @thegentlelife is a roller coaster of emotions because I can feel simultaneously happy and thankful that those kids are being well taken care of by such gentle parents who keep trying their best to learn more and better accommodate their children's needs while, at the same time, also feeling my entire childhood trauma rearing its head as I feel absolutely distraught by what I had to go through as a little girl and mourn the loss of this alternate life I could have had but never did.
I have been to those autisim conferences and it was all about kid's with autism me beimg diagnosed as an adult found it very hard yo relate love you're videos irene you aresuch a genuine intelligent woman
Most of this video I was just internally screaming, I cannot believe how much I related to most of your experience.
on internalizing PDA: its been such a revolutionary discovery but what people have mostly assumed is "shyness" is more like a deep resistance and resentment of other peoples demands and treatment of me
Yeah, most of my childhood meltdowns happened when people where trying to push me too hard to do something...when i got stuck in the NO zone things went very badly. Nowadays either i push myself hard to do something or i wont do anything at all. I will just float around...and when im pushing myself to do something i always want to do something else. Even if something else was what i didnt want to do before 😂. Omg
Undiagnosed autistic diagnosed w CPTSD and borderline traits. PDA feels very familiar. My legal guardians were in their late 60s early 70s when they adopted me and I was very much abused and neglected. I tried to get emancipated in highschool to no avail.
As a person who is pda autistic, I feel that much of the research, articles, and surrounding information about it is only written from an outside, neurotypical perspective. Even autistic people that aren't pda often seem to miss it too. For me it's not just "needing control over the situation." Any external concept that conflicts with the action that I'm currently doing is registered as a threat, and it's not possible for me to not be affected by demands negatively and intensely. The name "Pathological Demand Avoidance" is extremely dehumanizing.
44:23 This is how I experience PDA. I definitely respond with fawn/freeze, and I am currently trying to find another psychologist for re-assessment, because I am diagnosed with a personality disorder and bipolar, but I don’t feel I have either, especially based on the treatments and treatment outcomes. Personality/mood disorder treatments do not work for PDA/Autism, ADHD, CPTSD, or a physical pathology.
Ok. Example for a PDA internalizer: Being defiant in my childhood home got me beaten with a leather belt by a 200 lb man, so I learned to study the people who had any type of hand over my autonomy. I never trust any of them, but I have to study them well enough so I can trust them to be who they are. At that point I can do my best to manipulate situations in my favor. At the very least, doing this allows me to feel some power in my interactions with these people.
And theres definitely a reason why there are less people of color saying anything about autism;. more than likely it gets ignored and they don't receive care for any neurological or mental deficiencies which is something that needs to change. People of color are often overlooked and ignored in those aspects.
Irene, thank you so much for sharing this exploration. I (50 F she/we) am in limbo between my intake and evaluation for autism. I believe that I am PDA. I identify more with the demand anxiety than the need to be in control. You found videos that included the passive type. I hadn't seen that yet. I've always known that I am passive and avoidant. It's only in the past few years, thanks mostly to RUclips, that I have really started to understand myself.
I can really relate to this! But one thing i learned with age is that, while procrastinating things are generaly bad and someting i really need to fight more or less constantly because it is a destructive thing, questioning social hiearacies and be capable of think independent is on the other side incredibly important and someting i still do encurage. (English is not my native language...)
Wanted to show an example for me ahout being an internalizer:
Boss tells me to do something that i dont agree with. ...
I say ok great (fawning bc nervous system is activated and feeling hateful, yhis perosn is wrong. So maybe conciously itritated with them, but not conciously knowing that its bc of PDA )
So then i will just literally not do it.
Or i will do it in a different way than they asked and just sort of justify to myself and them that that is what they asked for.
Before knowing about PDA most of thia would be unconcious. I would also have trouble actually accomplishing the doing of the thing that i didnt want to do, and probably in the meantime telling myself like 'wtf, why cant you do this, its just one tiny thing'.... Which maybe was what the perosn was talking about about internalizing and making it your fault....
Sorry for typos for some reason i cant type well on youtube comments.
I totally do that as well. Yep, get right on that, proceed to not even begin to do it.
Another way I cobbled control was beating my boss to a task. So when he told me to do it, I could say, already did it. Best part of my day, so much dopamine lol
I was like this as a young child. My parents would have to carry me kicking and screaming to go somewhere I didn’t want to go, I had to be taken to the hospital and pinned down and injected because I wouldn’t take my medicine etc. But by around school age, I became like depressed/shy/fawn response. By like 17 it turned into still depressed lol but outgoing and freeze response when I was faced with something I didn’t want to do. I’ve been in a depression like all year and I’m looking like moving into my car within the next week and it’s below freezing and I’m scared of the cold but still seems like my preferred option 😂 I just want to be on my own so I can heal away from the demands of others ❤
All of this. I homeschooled seven children in a patriarchal church and there was a Demand from someone at all times. I had to literally run away in the end.
@@herewegokids7 gotta do what you gotta do bestie 😂 sending love and light💓
The part where you said how you can study for a test and pass completely forget all of the knowledge immediately after passing holy shit you just as grabbed my whole life’s conundrum! I’ve learned how to tell time on a clock at least 12 times in my life, and I forget how every single time bc
I can tell the time on my phone at all times what’s the point😅
Learning more and more about PDA opens my eyes to so many things about myself and my daughter. I've so often been accused of giving my daughter too much power and over explaining things but her and I are both PDA autistic and this is how we work. I can't tell her "you have to wear your helmet just because you do", because it sounds like bs even to me. I explain the safety reasons behind rules, and she still constantly asks me "why do moms make the rules" and there's this part of me that's like ***i don't!**. The rules that are for safety are there for safety, i don't decide that, for the most part physics and biology do. And she makes the rules for her own body because it's her body, i also don't decide that. So like. Authority doesn't make sense to me either in most cases, collaborative or mutual efforts are generally better. This mode of thought is so hard for people around me to understand and i don't know any better way to explain it.
It was nice to see you explore this topic authentically much the same way i feel many of your audience like myself experience learning about PDA.
I definitely do not relate to this but I think my sister definitely does. This was really helpful in understanding her thought process better, which I can hopefully help to explain to my mom
Damnnnn so proud of kid you for walking out, albeit it was overwhelming and painful. Wish I did that more as a kid
Thank you so much for this. Of all the channels about living while autistic, I have never felt as seen as I do when watching your content. I’m going to have my family watch this with one with me.
Separately, PDA research mostly comes from the UK. The U.S. dominant discourse in mental health doesn’t recognize PDA as anything. Of the 20+ therapists and doctors I’ve had and the mental health faculty I work with in my job, none of them were familiar with or even recognized the term. It’s really unfortunate. My hope is that as more autistic folks go into the mental health field that will change.
As always, ms. irene you illuminate, inform, and clarify on many vital subjects. I'm appreciative and grateful for your courage, your sincerety, and simply your existence. Thank you.
Oh wow, this was so informative! At first the description didn't seem like anything applicable to me, but after a while I saw a lot of similarities to how I react or feel in certain situations. I don't have autism, but I have adhd. So even if I don't have this, I have an intense aversion to being told what to do, especially if I was already going to do it. I have felt the fight or flight, and have literally left work after panicking when I was told to go to a different department to train (being forced makes me feel so trapped). My nervous system is definitely activated, and even when my husband says something that I take as "what I should do" I react very defensively, many times in a way that takes him completely off guard. Over time I think about it, and once I process it I realize he has good intentions and what he said was a valid point.
I'm lucky to live in a culture where student-teacher interactions aren't that formal
I have a tendency to treat teachers like any other person and have had many spontaneous casual conversations that probably wouldn't fly in many places
I'm 57 and this resonated so much that I was laughing. Everything you say about authority and adults is spot on. Unfortunately
“girl sit up straight” “sir I have scoliosis” would have been amazing though
As a mixed person of colour, I have diagnosed ADHD since 13, I'm 27 now and am planning to arrange my "Bother" assessment because I'm really struggling with school. I cry on the way every time and I'm only in my first semester.. I know you are interested in hearing from maybe people like me, being an adult too. Erin Rackman really hit it on the head for me with her observation of PDA in adulthood & in partnerhood.
I'm european (mostly britain, germanic), then indigenous central americas and several others. I am soup
There’s so much I could say, but ultimately I just want to say thank you for this channel. It’s hard to find people who understand how to present content with balance. You show us your findings with research and anecdotal experience, but also do so through the lense of empathy and education. It’s imperative for people like you to exist in the world. Thank you.
-Let’s learn about PDA
-Nope, I don’t think I will
(Hahaha I kid, I’ll gladly listen to it while painting my house)
Caraling to avoid being directed definitely resonates (being the creator of play and activities). I can also relate, resoundingly, to opposing authority figures by the logic of an unaligned and imbalanced hierarchy of power authority figures relinquished because they unfulfilled their roles: also got in trouble a lot for choices based on this thinking. Your observation that it is about logic is actually IT 🤩. Simply assuming rules don't apply or ignoring them in different contexts too. It helps to know the physiological responses are concrete..its not simply choices...🙌 needing to make my own mistakes ....this entire video😍
Thank you so much for this video. It was like you explained my personal life. I'm an undiagnosed woman but I'm 100% in on the spectrum. As a child I did not respect authority. I was constantly in trouble at school and even with my grandmother. I told her as long as she does not respect me I won't respect her either no matter the age. I was 7 maybe. I still, to this day, cannot accept that I need to do so many things I hate doing, just to earn the basic right to exist in this society. I learned to mask pretty well - I can come across all "normal" on a good day but im always aware I'm just acting which always makes me feel like the foreign object no matter what setting im in. I like my work but the real work for me is the acting. The obeying when I want to disagree. The little breaks to unmask come without me consenting to it, its tiring. Thank you so much.
6:24 I legit decided what career path I wanted in 5th grade and my motivation for school wasn’t grades. I just wanted to not get in trouble or have conflict at home.
This is a generalization what im about to say. The US education system is rooted back in earlier times, to make obedient workers, not to properly educate them or encourage them to be their best. There are a lot of problems with how US does education because it is based on outdated things (world is very different than 100-200 years ago). It is also not inclusive of all cultures. Just think how much is taught to just memorize facts and opinions, not to critically think. Not to be well rounded. Not to be who they are. These are just few examples of course, there are a lot more. A lot in society needs to evolve and get better, neurodiverse people are pointing it out.
I think I’ve seen the same thing, how our education system was built to produce factory workers. I think it’s about time our school systems experienced some changes
23:00 OKAY BUT GOOD!!!! Like holy shit, I don't personally think I have a streak on "non-compliance" myself despite heavily relating to every single thing said in this video, like I freak the fuck out when I don't understand something it doesn't seem Fair. But like, I literally cannot imagine a better response full of so much self-respect than just knowing how bullshit that situation was, getting up and Leaving. I probably would have burst out in tears, which is still Something, but still wow no like I clapped I'm so glad you did that genuinely.
This is one of the reasons I flunked out of high school. Between PDA, forgetting some of my homework and also working long hours while still in school I didn't do so well. All that plus Bipolar and divorce... One day I was sent to the office to talk to my counselor. It was a short visit because he put his hand on my thigh while talking to me. I was afraid to tell anyone. I was born in our near the Bay Area, in Vallejo. I still have trouble with boundaries and I'm 59. When I was in the Navy I got in trouble all the time because I didn't know my place the way my fellow sailors did.
My wife seems to have studied a little about Autism because even though we only recently accepted it in me she's very good at asking me to do things in advance and not suddenly. I usually internalize but it builds up and comes out eventually. Thanks so much for doing this video. I saw other videos on this but now I can actually understand it.
I’ve seen so many PDA videos around after my own specialist diagnosed me with this profile last year that I am now PDAing further learning about PDA. What a life.
I feel conflicted with the PDA profile because I very much relate the experiences or situations I feel very unethical about. However, for some reason I still crave routine and schedule from others as I don’t trust myself. It just that if I feel that your morals are off, I start to experience the PDA profile.
3:54 OMG that definition literally describes my life! I experience crippling panic attacks and have strong physiological reactions! It has impact my heart and now I take beta blockers to prevent future heart damage!
My little brother was diagnosed with this a few years ago, it’s great to see that it’s being more recognised within the autistic community more
This is one thing I'm very grateful with my mom. She always treated me with respect and whenever she asked me to do something she was always willing to explain the why behind it and if I still felt reluctant about it she was able to regulate me most of the times like "I know it doesn't make sense, but unfortunately it has to be done". I got frustrated sometimes yes, but her ability to treat me as a person capable of understanding (as every child should be treated) really helped. Of course I struggled the most in school but I was grateful to have her to back me up.
17:34 i love how you stand up for the kids,I really respect that,and I think the same way 🤗🤗🤗❤❤❤❤
I've always been aware that when someone makes any sort of suggestion to me my first response is "No. Don't tell me what to do." Then a few days later I'm able to think it through and consider it as a reasonable suggestion. But I can't accept any suggestions at the time, it always takes me a few days to warm up to anything even if it's actually a really good suggestion (even if it's something I was actually thinking of myself).
I've only recently accepted that I'm autistic so PDA autism is completely new to me.
I really feel you on all your points. It's how I felt all my life, too, except I'm the internalized version of PDA. Instead of daring to challenge authority, I just imploded in on myself. My entire life revolves around avoidance, because that's how I avoid demands from others, since conflict and confrontation feel so visceral to me. I wish I could reboot my life and challenge all the authoritarian tyrants in my life and defeat them with logic. SallyCat wrote a good run-down of the internalized version that I really relate to.
I think the reason PDA or demand avoidance feels like a nervous system disorder is because demands get registered as a threat to the system, ie like trauma. If you face demands that first of all, don't make sense ("I'm the teacher, so you have to do what I say") when we as autistic people tend to place logic very highly, and second, don't match your capabilities due to autism, and third, have ridiculous consequences if you don't comply (and you may be extra sensitive to negative input due to autism), they will most definitely register as threats, especially because you feel like no matter what you're trapped. The people making the demands disregard your worth as a person, dismiss your arguments and altogether gaslight you, so it naturally becomes a primal feeling to protect your autonomy. Having a whole different OS than the general population would make PDA appear very early, because our experiences in general just don't match that of other people, in every way - which is why I think you can't just pinpoint to one event in your life. It's like CPTSD, it's multiple small 'insignificant' events, but significant enough to get lodged into your amygdala. In that sense, PDA makes a lot of sense as a protective response.
I think for me being so intimidated by others turned a lot of my PDA inwards, because it only ever felt safe to rebel against myself - with the consequences that it's nearly impossible for me to actually do any of the things I really want (drawing, writing, reading, gaming, other projects, ie SPECIAL INTERESTS... and ofc regular chores especially), and it's just so frustrating. I can only do things I haven't set myself up to do at all, like watching endless videos on autism XD. Way to keep depression going, lol! I try to reframe things I want to do as 'wants' and I ask myself 'what do I want to do' instead of what should I do, but if there's still just a small 'I SHOULD do this' in the back of my mind, I get blocked. I absolutely hate it and just want it to go away, sigh. If only my mind would stop compensating for my lack of standing up for myself outwardly by standing up against myself on every little thing..
I absolutely love your content and share with many people. My experience growing up was one in which standing up for my values resulted in targeted abuse towards myself and siblings. It took me into my thirty’s before I could really begin to trust people again. I thought something was wrong with me until I was diagnosed and began therapy. I just couldn’t imagine what would have been waiting at home if I had walked out of that classroom….. something to consider when you imagine how someone may come to believe there is something wrong with them.
I watched this with my wife and we both noticed PDA signs in ourselves.
We also recognized, that school played a big part in how demands affect us. Just by the fact that we got bombarded with demands, especially when the demands are usually too difficult and overwhelming.
Just somebody calling me triggers it, because most people have the expectation that you will pick up the phone. Same with text messages, just because you sent me a text means i have to take the time to respond now? That's why it takes me weeks sometimes, like fuck you we will make contact when i'm ready.
For the actual PDA - where you WANT to do the thing but because someone else said to it's like Nope. Not doing it. When I was eight, my grandma told me probably one of the most powerful things I needed to know - Refusing to do something because someone told you to is Still letting them control you.
Thanks to her telling me that, I am able, in those moments, to take that step back and evaluate which thing _I_ actually _want_ to do. Not just how did them asking make me feel in that moment. Doesn't always work with anything - but I suspect it's gotten me a lot further than I ever expected before I learned PDA was a thing.
I feel like a lot of later diagnosed people on the spectrum that I know share that their parents are 'eggshell , narcissistic, immature' parents. And I wonder how many of those parents are also on the spectrum. Because the more I learn about my autism the more I think my mom is autistic and had a hard time identifying my 'differences'.
I can resonate with this form of autism a little bit. When I was a kid I remember my dad trying to teach me how to ride a bike so much but because he was telling me to ride a bike I just didn't do it. Recently my dad told me that when I was little he got me a scooter also. He said that it looked like I fell off the scooter on purpose just so I wouldn't have to learn how to do it.
Word!! I couldn’t figure out the rules and felt like I was constantly at a loss of what to do. I couldn’t depend on anyone to guide me, and nearly every adult was just a spiteful hypocrite. It was always about convenience with adults, and I never felt like I was being raised/allowed to be a child. There wasn’t any consistency to what I learned (worked for my peers or others) whenever it came to me. It was like playing a game in which nothing I did mattered because I was glitched and it always ended in a loss/low score/no gains…then I was forced to move onto the next level with little to no help/no buffs/items.
I don’t know if I have PDA Autism, but I related to the internalized one. I might of gone from externalizer to internalizer. I definitely socialized and was in need of attention (safe/healthy kind) but ended up trying to cope without it most of the time. Super relate to being abandoned/neglected and punishment. A lot of lecture about being grateful for what I even got though the difference in treatment was apparent. Nobody made sure I was okay, but someone definitely made sure I wasn’t when I was fine/happy/normal.
I’ve seen the last tiktok and was unsure without proper context/examples/memories, but PDA Autism is really starting to resonate with me (especially from the internalized experience).
Thanks for sharing and sending digital air hugs for child you up to adult you ❤️
Just want to mention an extremely good video I saw about this, and the reason I didn't watch this video I'm commenting on. First, why i didn't watch this video. I have dealt with SO MUCH bullshit related to people not understanding why I was less than 100% enthusiastic about doing something that it is an extreme trigger for me. I cannot sit through a reading of the technical definitions of PDA as the way it is defined misses so far off the mark as to be (in my case) actively destructive to understanding the way I function and why. I find it triggering to the point that i'f i'm not careful I can find myslfe looking off the edge of a cliff wondering if it wouldn't just be better to let go than keep going.
That being said, I truly love your content, and deeply appreciate your ability to so clearly express yourself and things that I have been unable to put into words. After watching your video about Ego Death, I put you on the level with austistamatic in depth of appreciation and a go to for when I feel it would be constructive to share a video to help someone understand. There is no higher regard I could have for your content, and I hope this conveys the respect and appreciation I have for you and my referencing this video is not received as intending to in any way take away from that. If it is, please let me know and give me the opportunity to address it.
This is the video that hit me like a ton of bricks when I saw it, and if the two of you were ever to have a conversation together it would be a dream come true.
autistamatic - When NO Doesn't Mean NO - PDA & Autism PDA Part 1 (Pathological Demand Avoidance)
ruclips.net/video/A-oS-BChBvU/видео.html
I’m so glad I’m not the only one upset with the lack of resources and studies for autistic adults. I’ve tried finding a therapist in my area that has experience or is somewhat able to help treat a late diagnosed autistic adhd adult and there isn’t one. I’ve reached out so many times only to be told that they only treat children and adolescents. It’s like even therapists and social workers who are supposed to help people dont accommodate adults with autism.
My inners are crying every time you have deep insight, as you you describe your experiences it's like you were there, only you have a voice, as 45 single mother & still wondering why am I so different let alone worried because my kids going through it too. Humble thank yous for the love of the collective.
My pda was met with traumatizing punishment that forced me to comply. I also hate that word compliance
Just because someone “tells me to do something “has never been a good enough reason for me to actually do something. I have always needed to see the reason why it would be worth doing, in order to make it happen. The section on compliance really hit hard.
I’m so glad to see more videos about this! My daughter has been diagnosed and I’m seeing a lot of similarities between my own life!