People kept saying that the sonic franchise was to edgy so they made him say stuff that isn’t funny or serious and now people want that back but it will probably be a vicious cycle that will never end
i really hope that Frontiers is a step in the right direction of giving current characters more backstory. ESPECIALLY Sonic. with that mural in Sonic 3, it makes you wonder. i hope they explore that in future games!
It's interesting how the echidnas' mural of Perfect Chaos was a big influence Gerald into making the Artificial Chaos and the Chaos Drives for Project Shadow, and then by proxy, making Shadow himself.
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again. One moral I’ve noticed from the sonic series is that playing god with ill intent will always result in disaster, be it the echidna’s within both SA1 and the Archie comics, Project shadow in SA2, The metarex in Sonic X and so on.
Very true, unlike most other games that fight "Godlike" beings for the trills or challenge alone, Sonic Series always comes with a theme of the darkside of seeking Godhood.
perhaps this theme of "playing god gone wrong" is an evolution of the idea of "nature vs machine" that the classics laid down. after all, playing god is anything but natural
@@joshtato5456 I always saw the pursuit of godhood as a fundamentally "Human" desire and stories surrounding obtaining it thu artificial means a question to weather its product of Human Evolution or Cheating. The dangers of seeking it and what it means after obtaining such power. In context to the lore of the sonic series, i've always found it interesting as to what "Role" does these gateways to godhood (Power Ups?) server to the created universe.
I love how Grandma established the Echidna's civilization, culture, and religion all by herself and within a single generation of her death they already fully transitioned from total pacifists to a brutal empire of death-dealing war mongers. Like, they barely waited until her body was cold. Either the Echidnas were just waiting for her to die so they could immediately begin killing everything in sight or they were just reallyyyyyyyy gullible because that's one heck of an about-face
In ways it kind of reminds me of the Bible stories. I'm in Bible Study and have learned about how their have been kings that would follow God's lead and worship God. But then after those nice kings their sons or whoever rules after them would be the evil one taking over everything, taking away things from people, worshipping other gods, and not following God's lead maybe even thinking that they are better than God. Yet, they have to learn to accept the love of God and realize that HE is way stronger and knows what HE'S doing is better than any of them. At times God has no choice but to punish them. Chaos isn't God, lol, but the Echidnas should have known better to keep things at peace and that Chaos is far more powerful than them and could very well easily punish them.
I always found it truly interesting that a place called "Angel Island" was associated with genocide, disaster and tragedy yet in current times its usually seen as Knuckles' island paradise.
It’s interesting to see that the ramifications caused by actions of both the Ancients and the Knuckles Clan are still being felt in the present day of the Sonic series.
Echidna tribe lore is definitely interesting. It definitely resonates with real history and how civilizations would rise and fall due to hubris and greeed
That’s something iv noticed about the adventure games the main conflict is always created unintentionally by a monster who closed off their heart and did something selfish. Indirectly dooming others and the world to a horrific fate that is narrowly prevented by someone with a good heart.
I love that Sonic lore is important and mostly coherent again after over a decade. The transition from Frontiers to 3&K to Adventure and how they all come full circle (or full triangle) is just satisfying to see now.
Don’t forget that their legacy bleeds into Adventure 2 with the artificial Chaos and the theory that Shadow and Biolizard are inspired by the Sonic and Perfect Chaos murals, respectively
@@valemontgomery9401 you could kinda argue the same with the Metarex arc with how the Master Emerald is essential to the story and how Knuckles laments the Metarex killing their own kind much like his tribe.
There are some Sonic ""fans"" (the same ones who argue about Sonic's shade of blue and quill length on Twitter) that say that Sega should stop having continuity in the games because it only "complicates an already "messy" franchise" and to them I say "maybe if you stop complaining for five seconds and listen to what you're being told then maybe, just maybe your small, miniscule brain can find some semblance of enjoyment out of this series that you are a so-called "fan" of. I will admit that Sega trying to make Prime canon to the games dispite WildBrain obviously never intending it to be with all it's blatant inconsistencies is like Sega trying to jam the wrong piece into a puzzle.
I think what's cool about narratives like the Echidna Tribe's downfall is that for Sonic stories, they're at their strongest when the negative side of the past is used to highlight the hopeful and positive side of the present.
I’m pretty sure Tikal and Chaos are still with the master emerald in spirit. As we see in sonic battle, chaos can return if the Chao are threatened and in the animated short (that released with Sonic Frontiers) we see Tikal’s soul fly about and the water around the Master Emerald reacts to it.
I love how certain levels of Sonic Adventure could be part of levels from Sonic 3 & Knuckles like Ice Cap, Sand Hill being Sandopolis, and inside the Depths of Red Mountain being Lava Reef. I really love the last story of SA1 where everything comes together, Tikal shows herself after being a very helpful hint guide for you on your campaigns, she explains everything, Sonic wants to make things right for her and Chaos to live in peace for eternity, and to top it all off we get an ending artwork of Tikal, Chaos and the Chao all living in peace together🥹
I like the darker and more in depth stories, and whenever they do it there needs to me a lesson somewhere in there. Adventure 1 and 2 are great examples of that. It's also cool how they also blend nicely into Echidna lore with all the angel island stuff in adventure and how Gerald used all their iconography in 2.
The echidnas weren't "banished", they weren't pulled into the skies against their will. They *decided* to use the Master Emerald to create Angel Island, isolating themselves and the Emerald from the world to keep it safe. It was a deliberate choice of theirs. Also, they were never pacifists? They were always a group of ruffians. Tikal's grandma kept them from becoming warmongers, but they weren't pacifists.
@@cherubiccherry1619 The Sonic Adventure Navigation Guide. It's in Japanese, so a lot of people don't know the lore in it, which is rather frustrating and disappointing. I wish we got official translations. I'm relying on machine translation so there may be errors, but here's a snippet from page 148. "Pachacamac. Chief of the ancient Knuckles tribe. He was bold, brave and daring. The ancient Knuckles were just a bunch of ruffians, but he brought them together with discipline and wisdom, and quickly formed them into a powerful fighting force. The ambitions that had been suppressed by his mother were unleashed by her death, and Pachacamac set out on his path to supremacy." From this we know that the Knuckles clan were violent even before Pachacamac came to power. They were always ruffians even during the time of Tikal's grandmother. Maybe centuries ago they were peaceful, but we don't know. Another snippet from page 157, "Devastated by Chaos' attack, the Knuckles clan were weakened considerably. The surviving Knuckles tribe, using the power of the Master Emerald, levitated the area around the Emerald Altar and took up residence there, monitoring and guarding the sealed Master Emerald to ensure that such an event would never happen again. They also left inscriptions and murals in the temple to pass on the incident to future generations." Clearly stating that the Knuckles clan themselves created Angel Island and willingly isolated themselves.
I really like those kinds of lore retelling videos from you and other channels. The Echidna Tribe's story is one of the reasons why I love SA1 and S3&K so much. Those ancient ruins and the story behind them are really one of Sonic's best plot points. And I was really excited when Frontiers dropped new lore on us. But now I have many more questions, I hope one day we'll learn more about the Ancients and the Chaos Emeralds' past.
It’s times like these in which I miss old school sonic with elaborate stories and lore. This video made me so excited seeing the overall big picture. I hate how SEGA was regressing back in the 2010s and pandering to classic sonic nostalgia instead of moving forward. But after Frontiers I’m glad that they are innovating and creating exciting stories again. Let’s hope they continue to keep this trend.
Almost as if the 00s games were really bad and damaged the brand, so they'd rather try to evoke nostalgia of the time they WEREN'T a laughingstock, and were actually rivaling Mario
@@kingtiger5040 Blabla, we're going to pretend that Unleashed, Adventure games, Rush games and Storybook games weren't good games. And guess what? They're from 2000s! And before you come back with your "Sonic can't be serious". Remember all the games I quoted, and add IDW comics, Sonic X's Season 3, Frontiers, Dream Team and Riders games to the list, we'll see if you'll keep saying that Sonic can't have good serious stories.
Woah, this was pretty amazing. I almost finished Sonic 3 & Knuckles and already finished Sonic Adventure, and the lore for Knuckles' clan was pretty dark, but still had a pretty good moral. Great vid, Chaomix.
Knuckles has really grown to be one of my favorite Sonic characters, and this backstory really fuels this fascination. A clan, tainted by violence and conquest, pay the price once they attempt to play god. This story, alongside many other things, is why I really love this series.
As both a big Sonic adventure fan and somebody really into Mesoamerican history and archeology, i've constantly mused doing a big breakdown of all of the Mesoamerican influences the Echidna have in SA1 and to a lesser extent SA2 and Shadow.
I always figured "Chaos" got his name and title by the Echidnas who survived and were left behind in the Mystic Ruins, constructing the mural in their demolished temple to warn future generations of this being they now refer to as "Chaos, the God of Destruction" and knowing their old prayers, and the power they unleashed that night, that's also how the Emeralds became known as "Chaos Emeralds" In the Japanese translation, the emeralds are never referred to as "Chaos Emeralds" until after that night. And even in Frontiers, The Ancients can be heard to referring to them as "Chaos Gems" so this detail of the lore remains intact thankfully, cause I personally believe the Emeralds' natural state to be Super Emeralds, hence their size in the past. Well actually ig their natural state is the smaller size since Frontiers shows us this, but clearly being around the Master Emerald pushes them into an ascended state, so that's neat. But yeah the Ancients referred to them correctly, it was the Echidnas who misnamed them as all being Emeralds lol
Chaomix you're storytelling and editing is amazing! I remember watching your Shadow lore video and I was like we need more of this and I'm so glad we got this vid!
I will always ADORE the fact that the ancient Echidnas are initially presented to the player as a peaceful civilization, but as you play the game, it's gradually revealed they were in fact a bunch of violent assholes who totally deserved what happened to them. That's some cool-ass shit for a 1998 "cartoon mouse wearing sneakers" platformer imo
Except the first flashback you see (if you play through Sonic's story first) is one of the last ones chronologically, with the whole place engulfed in flames Or might be THE last one, I'm not sure
I've been waiting for your input on the Echidna tribe for so long, I'm so happy you finally done it! Knuckles is my favourite character so seeing more into his background is amazing! Amazing video as always Chaomix!
Will you ever talk about the Echidna lore of Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood? Most people overlook that game due to it not being very good, but its story and lore is genuinely really interesting (and, besides a few retcons, it's generally consistent with the Sonic canon till that point, even though it's not considered canon). I haven't seen anyone talk about it here on RUclips, so it'd be great having you do it!
I was just thinking about Chronicles being canon! Both Imperator IX and Shade are echindas, and I believe Nestor is one, too, with his ancient tablets. I really feel like they should've made a sonic Chronicles 2 by now because the ending of the game says, "The End", but then when you press the a button, it says, "The End?". I feel like that should indicate another sonic rpg, but it's been so long that I don't think they'll ever make another one. I think chronicles is one of the greatest sonic games, actually, and I love the music! It suprised me when most people didn't like it.
In Sonic Chronicles, it was revealed that the Knuckles Clan were at war with the Nocturnus Clan. In an attempt to expand the Knuckles Clan's power, Pachacamac, the leader of the Knuckles Clan, attacked the Chao at the emerald altar to steal the Chaos Emeralds. However, Chaos retaliated by transforming into Perfect Chaos and wiped out the Knuckles Clan (as already shown in the Sonic Adventure flashbacks). The demise of the Knuckles Clan due to Perfect Chaos allowed the Nocturnus Clan to be temporarily unopposed, before being trapped in the Twilight Cage. Eventually, Imperator Ix, the leader of the Nocturnus Clan, came up with a plan to break out of the Twilight Cage and conquer the world.
In the Sonic Movie lore the Echidna Tribe was already power hungry from the start, and the Archie Sonic lore is a whole can of worms that I don’t wanna talk about.
I imagine that the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald are as old as the Sonic Universe, and were scattered and gathered a few times before the ancients used them.
Something that has always confused me was the mural in Hidden Palace depicting Super Sonic fighting Dr. Robotnik in space. Of course, that happens thousands of years after the mural was made, so how did they know? What was the reason for creating a mural with a Super charged Hedgehog fighting a large moustached entity over the Master Emerald. And why specifically was it a Hedgehog? Hedgehogs don't seem to have any interesting history or lore, the Echidnas do, however. If they were going to make the mural about a being with the Emerald's power fighting for the Master Emerald, surely it would've been an Echidna
Perhaps a dream? a vision? Prophecies work in mysterious ways. My assumption was that some kind of “divine vision” was given and the mural was depicting the prophecy.
@@saffie_taffie but a prophecy made 4000 years before the event transpires? From other fictional stories that feature prophecies (like Harry Potter) the prophecies are made weeks or months before it happens. A prophecy is made about Harry and Voldemort and the event spoken about happens only 2 years after the prophecy was made.
@@Ollie.H-23 There are prophecies in fiction that have been told hundreds of years prior, an example being in Percy Jackson. Heck, if you want to take irl religions and mythologies into account, many have some sort of prophecy about how the world will end, or beings that will rise one day. Even though they may have been told thousands of years ago, they are yet to happen.
We see The Master Emerald show Knuckles that pieces of it are located on the Egg Carrier. It stands to reason the Master Emerald is what gave them insight to write the prophecies, so they could be ready for future threads to the emeralds and such.
@elmemearana5483 Dogshit:Shadow the hedgehog,Secret Rings,Shuffle,06,Black Knight,Chronicles and heroes Mediocre:Unleashed and the Rush series Good:Adventure 1 and 2(Advance series also included)
@@kingtiger5040 tbh, I would classify Secret Rings and Black Knight as truly mediocre games, since they are actually good if we're talking about story. Unfortunately, I can't say the same to controls. Same thing for Heroes. As for Unleashed and Rush series, these guys really deserve to be in the good position. They have a solid gameplay that still works until this day, a simple but good story, momentum you can gain by memorizing the level's layout, and so on. Yes, both have their issues (especially in Unleashed's case with the Werehog levels), but I think the good stuff surpasses the bad.
@elmemearana5483 Unfortunately,gameplay is more important than story though Black Knight is much superior to Secret Rings in every measure(this doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy them both). Unleashed basically is 20% peak sonic gameplay and 80% werehog.The game would have been the amazing if the werehog gameplay was as polished as the daytime gameplay and Rush -according to me-has impressive gameplay but poor level design(not Sonic 4 level though)
0:24 no earlier Sonic 2 (which states an achient civilization existed on West Side Island tried to misuse the emeralds and were wiped out because of it in the JPN manual) perhaps Westside South anf Angel Island and maybe even Carnival Island were all part of the same pand mass at some point before the Knuckles Clan decided to use the emeralds in their war against the Nocturnes Clan
Just a nitpick, there is no such thing as "devolve". Evolving isn't about getting stronger, it's simply how a species changes with observation that a creature more fit for their environment will better survive.
Amazing video, I just love good Sonic lore and Adventure 1 and 2 are full of it. But you also made me enjoy Frontiers story more, I really hope update 3 fixes the biggest flaw with it!
Love these kinds of videos because the echidna clan is one of my favorite parts of the Sonic series. One thing i wish you mentioned would be Sonic Chronicles TDB and it's further expanded lore on the echidna clan. Its one of my favorites and I do wish it was mentioned in this video. One clan being almost completely wiped out by the very being they worshipped and the other remaining tribe being banished into the Twlight Cage filled with other extremely dangerous and powerful beings. Honestly makes me wish they'd return in a future game or at least mentioned again as the Nocturnus clan did also invent the Gizoids. But overall solid video, love the content man! 👌
I always liked and preferred the more serious and story-rich and full of lore Sonic games, like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, Sonic 06, the Sonic Storybook games and Sonic Unleashed. And I am happy that Sonic Team finally remembered to retry this approach with Sonic Frontiers, even to a quite lesser extent.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 I feel like the story itself wasn't that bad, it had potential, but the whole hedgehog-human love thing was super weird, and kind of repetitive. (Just my opinion)
@@YourLocalNintendo I dunno, the stupid time paradox story with knockoff Future Trunks and an evil Shadow is just too convoluted and needlessly serious for Sonic. How about the massive plothole about Elise somehow never crying? Or just the fact it was one of the main games that shifted the Sonic stories away from environmentalism and stopping Eggman into these world-ending events. Actually I don't care much for the kiss. It's easy to make fun of but Sonic is fully sentient and capable of consenting, and he doesn't exactly look like a real hedgehog so it doesn't really count as bestiality either. The bigger issue is that it seemed one-sided and she kissed him when he was unconscious.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Bro tbh I agree with most of what you just said, I just think the time paradox thing was kind of cool. Sure, it was really convoluted and needlessly complex, but I find it more fun the more confusing it is. Like decoding a puzzle, it's fun (does that make sense?) And I loved Mephiles, I think he was a great villian. I guess it kind of depends on the player. The kiss wasn't really a problem, I agree it wasn't bestiality, I just thought it was weird and unnecessary, I just wish they had more of a platonic friendship.
@@YourLocalNintendo It's dumb because the calamity Silver's coming to prevent isn't anything interesting relating to the main characters. Mephiles should've been an evil Shadow, or it could've been in a future where Sonic turned evil or Eggman took over. Instead it's a villain we only ever see in this game. In the Android Saga, Trunks went back in time to stop robots created by one of Goku's old foes, and the final villain of the arc was created by that same man and a combination of almost all of Goku's previous villains. Toriyama could've made it a random throwaway villain but he decided to do something interesting and thematically significant with it. Like the issue isn't time travel despite a lot of problems those stories tend to have, it just doesn't use it in any interesting or creative way. Let alone the entire plotline is strapped to Elise being a worthless damsel. Not including the issue that Solaris is just another big evil monster that wanted to destroy the world, like Perfect Chaos before it or Dark Gaia after. And the fact Sonic doesn't voluntarily set it off or is even the actual Iblis Trigger at all, which could've done SOMETHING interesting for the narrative. There'd be a potential moral choice there. We don't actually really see what Silver is doing in the future or how he really got here (doesn't help that they don't even want to show who Sonic apparently had kids with), let alone how Blaze relates to this when she had a completely different backstory in Sonic Rush. The story is just too poorly thought out and was probably a product of being rushed, but honestly Sonic has never really had well-written stories. I don't see how you think Mephiles was a good villain, I don't think Sonic has ANY good villains or even good characters. People complain about character degradation, but it's not like these characters were deep or interesting to begin with, and none of them really developed or went through arcs even in their "glory days". The closest was Shadow but even then it was only halfway decently done in one game, a game filled with melodramatic writing and bad voice acting (and the insinuation some spiky rat is the "Ultimate Lifeform"). He just kinda floats around the next few games and angsts a bit. Maybe Knuckles but he gets over that in like one game. When it comes to villains the closest to interesting we get is Eggman himself, but that's solely due to the hints he became the way he is because of the government fucking him over. But that's never explored and he's not given a particularly interesting or entertaining relationship to Sonic, he had something in the original trilogy where he represents environmental destruction and Sonic is a woodland critter defending his home (which was the original reason why there's talking animals running around), but the franchise has been long past that, sadly. Sega will never delve into anyone's backstories or motivations or let them change as people because they want to keep them static and the stories simple like other mascot platformers, but then they introduce a new character or two every game that gets some sort of arc (what I meant before was that none of the core characters are particularly interesting or well-developed), and in the Dark Era especially still tried to put all this pomp and circumstance into the plot. They want to have their cake and eat it too, at least develop the other characters if you MUST keep Sonic static (and God do I hate static heroic leads). To close out on Eggman, unironically one of the best versions is the one from the Boom cartoon because at least he's a massive loser that Sonic at times barely tolerates. A very Doofenshmirtz and Perry the Platypus sorta relationship, it's not like Eggman was ever particularly threatening no matter what the games did. This doesn't include SatAm Robotnik, he was a nice mix of both and probably one of the few pieces of Sonic media with a decent story, characters actually develop, especially Sonic who has flaws and an interesting relationship with both Robotnik and Sally. I know it's the basis for the Archie comics but from all I've seen they were kinda hit and miss at times though they certainly tried more with characterization. Maybe IDW is also good, I hear mixed stuff with it and Ian Flynn is a bit too faithful to the source material so to speak though I definitely think his arm is a little twisted.
This really make Adventure 1 feel like the story's end, and Adventure 2 feel like a new beginning. How very fitting. Echidna lore scares me, though. Because of Penders...
Y'know, I'm a little curious if things could've been different here; what if the echidnas weren't wiped out? What if Knuckles wasn't the last of his kind? Hmm... In any case, this is a solid video covering this piece of Sonic lore!
I do like the idea that the ancients couldn’t sustain their water like bodies on earth so they had to devolve into the chao in order to survive. This would also explain how chaos operates notice how chaos 0 seems to only be able to be in full form for a short period as when ever we encountered him in sa1 he would always emerge and flee in a puddle it would also explain why he wasn’t able to leave the altar in the tikal flashbacks. With out the emeralds power he can’t sustain himself for a long period of time. The ancients being the chao would also explain how they can consume the energy of the chaos drives and get stronger like chaos and can’t really survive without something like chaos energy. God if they really thought of all that when writing the ancients storyline then maybe Sonic writing is starting to turn around.
I think 15:22 is an interesting point of discussion, as although we see them move on and ascend to the sky, the Sonic Frontiers Prologue shows they are both still alive and present in some capacity, even if only spiritually. Maybe Tikal's seal keeps them apart of the master emerald, but since Chaos's hatred and rage is gone they now help Knuckles protect the emerald. May be a bit of a retcon but I wouldn't mind seeing them reappear more to flesh out Knuckles's character.
We don’t know that the ancient devolved into chao, but it would explain Chaos’ fondness for them. We also don’t that a chao mutated into Chaos. It is more likely that one of the ancients became Chaos, perhaps due to not having one of those koco avatars or maybe due to closer interaction with the power of the Master Emerald, maybe an ancient precursor of the Guardians of the Master Emerald. Again, it would explain Chaos’ fondness for the chao. Also Chaos does not reside IN the Master Emerald, but rather he merges with the surrounding waters. He has only been inside the Master Emerald after Tikal imprisoned him inside it and only until the Master Emerald was broken in Sonic Adventure. It also seems like Chaos is more interested in protecting the chao, rather than the emeralds, seeing as how in SA2, Rouge clearly took the Master Emerald into the desert, before Knuckles stopped her. That’s also when Knuckles himself broke the Master Emerald and Chaos was nowhere to be found, further proving that Chaos resides on Angel Island (if the Sonic Frontiers prologue animation is to be believed).
Notice that every playable Sonic character in SA1 gets some ancient-ish power-up, Sonic gets the Ancient Light, Tails gets some badge, Knuckles gets digging claws, Amy gets a bow/hairclip etc.
I love world building in any form of media, And the fact that Sonic games from way different eras are all connected in some way like 3&k, sa1 and frontiers is just music to my ears.
Why do you have to make such good videos? Now my Sonic obsession is coming back 😭 Oh well guess it's time to install some of the games I haven't played yet 😅
you actually inspired me to do my own sonic marathon. its a short one where i play all 4 classics, both episodes of sonic 4 and both adventure games. and im starting adventure 1 soon. came out at the perfect time. i might watch this video before i play just to get caught up with the echidna tribe lore.
YES FINALLY MORE SONIC'S DARKEST LORE VIDEOS I LOVE THESE VIDEOS THEY R THE BEST. also please make the next episode of sonic's darkest lore let it be the story of solaris and princess elise
Frontiers basically recontextualizes everything from SA1. And for me as an old fan, it's all incredibly surreal. Ian Flynn pretty much opened the narrative floodgates; in terms of worldbuilding there hasn't been anything this significant in the games canon since... I wanna say Unleashed. And then the man also had the audacity to just outright connect the comic book (as well as sonic boom!?!?!) canon to the games with those few bits of dialogue from Sonic and co. mentioning Tangle and Sticks. Like wtf LOL
With all the fan characters in the fandom and people making characters based on single lines of dialog, etc. I'm surprised I've only ever seen a single person tackle making Grandma into a character.
I always wondered if they did sacrifices since they’re based off mesoamerican tribes in particular the Mayans. Tikal was an Important “capital” of the Mayans and even though their far away, pachacamac was similar just far south in Peru So I wondered if they did sacrifices and it’s my head cannon that they did
This, if executed well or okay, could be a very interesting story for Knuckles in the Idw comics. Because Knuckles has barley done anything in idw especially when compared to archie. For the most part he's a minor character at best and background character at worst. In Sonic DX, when Knuckles is shown the past of his people, he only saw the bare minimum. So a story of him learning about the dark history of his clan and how he deals with that info would be interesting for his character.
The history of the Echidna tribe and what transpired has always been one of my favorite lore when it some to the Sonic franchise, and this video perfectly explains it. Thank you so much for this
Is it just me or do the chaos emeralds in the SADX flashbacks look more like the super emeralds? I mean the fact they are bigger and on pillars surrounding the master emerald it gives off a Sonic 3 and Knuckles super emerald altar vibe. It could just be me or maybe it was a little nod to those who played Sonic 3 and Knuckles and unlocked Hyper Sonic or at the very least found the secret giant ring knuckles tried to hide.
You know, if you think about it, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are very similar to each other. In terms of gameplay, both games have a main roster of six playable characters, including Sonic, Tails and Knuckles, plus another major character in the franchise (Amy in Adventure 1, and Eggman in Adventure 2, with the other appearing as a major NPC in the other game), a new major character meant to have a recurring presence in the series (Big in Adventure 1, and Rouge in Adventure 2), and a new anti-heroic character with ties to Eggman, who's apparently killed at the climax of their side of the story (Gamma in Adventure 1, and Shadow in Adventure 2; though as later games would establish, Gamma's legacy would live on in Omega, and Shadow survived the big fall at the end of Adventure 2 at the cost of losing his memory, which he would recover from as time progressed). Both games also have the main style of 3D gameplay, plus treasure hunting stages, shooting stages, a kart racing minigame, and of course, the Chao Garden with Chao Race. The plots of both games are similar too. Both involve an expansion on the lore of one main character's ancestors (Knuckles' ancient tribe in Adventure 1, and Eggman's family in Adventure 2), and we see flashbacks of them during the game, with the actions of one individual of great authority from these times (Pachacamac in Adventure 1, and Gerald Robotnik in Adventure 2) influencing the present day conflict, and also featuring a younger relative of theirs (Tikal in Adventure 1, and Maria in Adventure 2) who wants peace, with their own influence helping the heroes during the conflict (in the form of Tikal herself appearing as a spirit in Adventure 1, and Shadow fulfilling Maria's dying wish in Adventure 2). The plots also have Eggman's forces obtaining six of the Chaos Emeralds, with the last one being held by Sonic and his pals until they lose it near the end, and involve some vicious creature with ties to the ancestors' story (Chaos in Adventure 1, and the Biolizard in Adventure 2), with the climax having Super Sonic fight to save the world from a more powerful version of these beasts (Perfect Chaos in Adventure 1, and the Finalhazard in Adventure 2).
Exactly, ive always loved that. And im sure they were aware of it, as the climax of the game happens literally at the ME altar, as well as "Madness" being basically the second part to "Danger!" track from SA1, and it is the only SA1 track that gets such a heavy reference in 2. Its like poetry, it rhymes etc etc
There’s just something I didn't understand If Chaos and Tikal moved on the "afterlife" then why did we see Tikal in her glowing form in the Knuckles prologue?
Chaos and Tikal did not go to the afterlife, as implied the image you get at the end they instead both go back to Angel Island. (Both even making a small cameo on Angel Island in Frontiers Divergence) Chaos even helps out and is playable in Sonic Battle and if Ian is to be believed is responsible for holding the oceans in place in Sonic Unleashed. Chaos' continued presence also helps explain why Knuckles OK with just leaving the ME unguarded when he goes off to help Sonic.
@@maryafantalia4357 No it wasn't, you can clearly see both Tikal (in orb form) and Chaos (in puddle form, as water doesn't ripple that way naturally) after the flash back around the 1:08 mark in modern day.
comments and corrections most of these are taken from the Sonic Adventure Navigation Guide 3:12 the phantom ruby in mania is shown to be able to detransform classic Sonic from super sonic. 3:16 The ancients did not seek refuge. From the cutscenes its shown that due to the Emeralds reacting to the Master Emerald they were unable to fully control the ship and had to land on earth. 3:33 Its unlikely that the Ancients created sky sanctuary. Not only is the color and architecture different from Both The Starfall Island and the structures of the Knuckles Clan, but in the Knuckles prologue he points out that the Portal from the Ancients is actually older than sky sanctuary. Likely meaning it came significantly before. And seeing as it was not connected to the structure from what we can see, its unlikely to have been made by those that made Sky Sanctuary. Sky Sanctuary's creators are still unclear and aside from the Knuckles tribe frontiers dosent do enough to prove who else its connected to. I will edit this post once more info is revealed 3:29 the Ancients settled on the Starfall Islands first, not the mystic ruins. From a flashback we know that the Ancients settled on the Starfall Islands an a subset went to the Master Emerald while the rest stayed to fight off the end with the Titans and seemingly died out. Piecing together Eggman and Sage comments we can surmise that its due to the environmental conditions/ climate on the island in the wake of The End's attack. 3:54 the reason we know that the chao are connected to the Ancients is due to Eggman's audio log, Egg Memo#11 where sage confirms a connection between the chao and the ancients via chaos, who we know from previous entiries, is a mutated variant of a chao. the chao are infact, the anthesis of the Koco. Where the chao represent the physical essence of the Ancients, being their mutated body, while the Koco represent the psychological/ spiritual essence, retaining the memory of the ancients and their personality and will. They are opposites in many ways as well. The chao are soft while to Koco are hard. The chao organic, the koco artificial cus they were originally toys/ token the Ancients once held that seemed to gain their sentience after the fact. The koco the past while the chao show advacement and continuous evolution. The chao being the living, the descendants of the ones that escaped to the mystic ruins, while the koco are the dead, their very existence a shadow of the lives the ancients once lived and gain closure via death with the help of Sonic and friends. They are equals and opposites. 4:24 we dont know if chaos ever sealed himself within the master emerald. The explanation for his long life is that hes a mutated chaos chao and chaos chao in game are immortal, likely meaning that chais is biologically immortal as well. Theres no indication hes ever sealed himself in the Master Emerald prior to the chaos event 3000yrs ago. 4:31 the only indication that chaos was worshiped are in two cases. As the guardian God of the chao by the chao, and as a God if Destruction, seemingly after the chaos event where he wiped out the tribe. He is only depicted as perfect chaos in the Echidna Shrine (the big temple) and its after the chaos incident meant to depict him as dangerous and a warning to their descendants about what happened in the past according to the Sonic Adventure Navigation Guide 4:50 Tikal's grandma dosent seem to have been the first leader as the Sonic Adventure Navigatio guide says that she was part of a more politically moderate faction. So a system of government was seemingly already established, she was just the leader. The prayer Tikal recites was a poem she inherited from her grandmother that was part of the ledgends of the chaos emeralds. So the knuckles already had a preexisting history we dont know of. The poem itself was said to have been handed down to the knuckles 5:02 they werent pacifists. The guide describes the echidnas as a mere band of ruffians before Pachacamac took over. The echidna tribe was already a fighting force, just not a very big one. Even Tikal herself is called a proud warrior of the knuckles, with her only disadvantage being her short reach 5:12 the knuckles tribe seems to know very little about the chao. The knuckles also didnt look after the chao, tikal was the only one that was close to the chao and chaos cus she went there without alterior motives 5:17 they did not worship chaos and were not guardians. the only members of the knuckles tribes that we know if thatbwere guardians were the survivors of the chaos incident on Angel island that gave themselves the role of guardian to protect the master emerald 5:33 they were not privy to the emeralds secrets. they only had ledgends and they did not know how to use its power, nor did they understand the Master Emerald or its role. At one point they may have understood since the poem was inherited, but both tikal and Pachacamac did not understandm Tikal only understood when chaos showed her the Master Emerald 7:05 they wouldnt have called them neighbors. even before pachacamac gained power the time of the knuckles was already a time of local warlords fighting 8:07 he wasnt even in the master emerald in the clip you showed. 8:37 mentioned this already. he wasnt their god 10:22 we know some of the knuckles tribe were not on Angel island cus they most likely made the tablets that eggman found explaining details about perfect chaos in the mystic ruins as well as the existence of the mural in the knuckles shrine
For crying out loud , they never said they created the Chaos Emeralds. They could just as easily be from the same planet , and got ejected to another planet. Because the Master Emerald could neutralize all forms of chaotic energy. As for why and how things happened , open ended writing is good for sequels.
Should Sonic stories be as dark as the lore of the ancient Echidna tribe? Or do you think they should only be much more light hearted?
Yes
Yes actually maybe
Idk
A mix of both
Either a mix both or dark
I feel like the echidna tribe lore is genuinely amazing. More darker stories would be amazing because this story teaches one not to be greedy
Sadly I feel like these are tales which will never be told, thanks to one man's meddling with things...
I hope that the next game has a darker story, but a kinda hidden one, so it's still kid friendly !
People kept saying that the sonic franchise was to edgy so they made him say stuff that isn’t funny or serious and now people want that back but it will probably be a vicious cycle that will never end
Yeah
with the sonic resurgence i feel a lot of unfinished lore is finally getting completed like it should be 👍✨
Knuckles and Shadow honestly have the best lore and backstory of any character and it’s good to see the Echidna tribe being discussed
I'd argue they're the only ones with an effective backstory lol
i really hope that Frontiers is a step in the right direction of giving current characters more backstory. ESPECIALLY Sonic. with that mural in Sonic 3, it makes you wonder. i hope they explore that in future games!
Silver and Blaze have the potential to have as good of a lore as those two but SEGA seemingly doesn't wanna do anything cool with them.
It's interesting how the echidnas' mural of Perfect Chaos was a big influence Gerald into making the Artificial Chaos and the Chaos Drives for Project Shadow, and then by proxy, making Shadow himself.
@@sirkjohno0129 yup. Just like I said
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again. One moral I’ve noticed from the sonic series is that playing god with ill intent will always result in disaster, be it the echidna’s within both SA1 and the Archie comics, Project shadow in SA2, The metarex in Sonic X and so on.
Very true, unlike most other games that fight "Godlike" beings for the trills or challenge alone, Sonic Series always comes with a theme of the darkside of seeking Godhood.
Or the people of Soleanna in Sonic 06
Or even Dr Eggman in Sonic Unleashed
perhaps this theme of "playing god gone wrong" is an evolution of the idea of "nature vs machine" that the classics laid down. after all, playing god is anything but natural
@@joshtato5456 I always saw the pursuit of godhood as a fundamentally "Human" desire and stories surrounding obtaining it thu artificial means a question to weather its product of Human Evolution or Cheating. The dangers of seeking it and what it means after obtaining such power. In context to the lore of the sonic series, i've always found it interesting as to what "Role" does these gateways to godhood (Power Ups?) server to the created universe.
@@joshtato5456that is true
I love how Grandma established the Echidna's civilization, culture, and religion all by herself and within a single generation of her death they already fully transitioned from total pacifists to a brutal empire of death-dealing war mongers. Like, they barely waited until her body was cold. Either the Echidnas were just waiting for her to die so they could immediately begin killing everything in sight or they were just reallyyyyyyyy gullible because that's one heck of an about-face
Or at least Pachacamac was; there's not really much word on how the other echidnas feel (except for Tikal ofc) since they're just generic NPCs
@F1areon you can talk to the NPC echidnas in the past Mystic Ruins adventure field whenever you travel there
I know, but other than that they're all just kinda... there. They just say the same messages and that's really about it. @@sirkjohno0129
In ways it kind of reminds me of the Bible stories.
I'm in Bible Study and have learned about how their have been kings that would follow God's lead and worship God.
But then after those nice kings their sons or whoever rules after them would be the evil one taking over everything, taking away things from people, worshipping other gods, and not following God's lead maybe even thinking that they are better than God.
Yet, they have to learn to accept the love of God and realize that HE is way stronger and knows what HE'S doing is better than any of them.
At times God has no choice but to punish them.
Chaos isn't God, lol, but the Echidnas should have known better to keep things at peace and that Chaos is far more powerful than them and could very well easily punish them.
I'm guessing that's going to be retconned in the future
I always found it truly interesting that a place called "Angel Island" was associated with genocide, disaster and tragedy yet in current times its usually seen as Knuckles' island paradise.
Yeah
I mean, no taxes
@@demiraykodal468No mcdonald's
@@davin6957 NOOOOOO
It’s interesting to see that the ramifications caused by actions of both the Ancients and the Knuckles Clan are still being felt in the present day of the Sonic series.
Echidna tribe lore is definitely interesting. It definitely resonates with real history and how civilizations would rise and fall due to hubris and greeed
That’s honestly the scariest part
That’s something iv noticed about the adventure games the main conflict is always created unintentionally by a monster who closed off their heart and did something selfish. Indirectly dooming others and the world to a horrific fate that is narrowly prevented by someone with a good heart.
I love that Sonic lore is important and mostly coherent again after over a decade. The transition from Frontiers to 3&K to Adventure and how they all come full circle (or full triangle) is just satisfying to see now.
Don’t forget that their legacy bleeds into Adventure 2 with the artificial Chaos and the theory that Shadow and Biolizard are inspired by the Sonic and Perfect Chaos murals, respectively
Agreed
@@valemontgomery9401 you could kinda argue the same with the Metarex arc with how the Master Emerald is essential to the story and how Knuckles laments the Metarex killing their own kind much like his tribe.
There are some Sonic ""fans"" (the same ones who argue about Sonic's shade of blue and quill length on Twitter) that say that Sega should stop having continuity in the games because it only "complicates an already "messy" franchise" and to them I say "maybe if you stop complaining for five seconds and listen to what you're being told then maybe, just maybe your small, miniscule brain can find some semblance of enjoyment out of this series that you are a so-called "fan" of.
I will admit that Sega trying to make Prime canon to the games dispite WildBrain obviously never intending it to be with all it's blatant inconsistencies is like Sega trying to jam the wrong piece into a puzzle.
@@vegetafan9922 Sonic can have lore, Frontiers did a great job of that, but making shows like Prime canon is stupid and makes zero sense
I think what's cool about narratives like the Echidna Tribe's downfall is that for Sonic stories, they're at their strongest when the negative side of the past is used to highlight the hopeful and positive side of the present.
I’m pretty sure Tikal and Chaos are still with the master emerald in spirit. As we see in sonic battle, chaos can return if the Chao are threatened and in the animated short (that released with Sonic Frontiers) we see Tikal’s soul fly about and the water around the Master Emerald reacts to it.
Impossible if chaos was in the master emerald he would show up when it shattered in sonic adventure 2.
I love how certain levels of Sonic Adventure could be part of levels from Sonic 3 & Knuckles like Ice Cap, Sand Hill being Sandopolis, and inside the Depths of Red Mountain being Lava Reef.
I really love the last story of SA1 where everything comes together, Tikal shows herself after being a very helpful hint guide for you on your campaigns, she explains everything, Sonic wants to make things right for her and Chaos to live in peace for eternity, and to top it all off we get an ending artwork of Tikal, Chaos and the Chao all living in peace together🥹
I like the darker and more in depth stories, and whenever they do it there needs to me a lesson somewhere in there. Adventure 1 and 2 are great examples of that.
It's also cool how they also blend nicely into Echidna lore with all the angel island stuff in adventure and how Gerald used all their iconography in 2.
The echidnas weren't "banished", they weren't pulled into the skies against their will. They *decided* to use the Master Emerald to create Angel Island, isolating themselves and the Emerald from the world to keep it safe. It was a deliberate choice of theirs.
Also, they were never pacifists? They were always a group of ruffians. Tikal's grandma kept them from becoming warmongers, but they weren't pacifists.
I feel like I see so many conflicting takes. Anyone got sources?
@@cherubiccherry1619 The Sonic Adventure Navigation Guide. It's in Japanese, so a lot of people don't know the lore in it, which is rather frustrating and disappointing. I wish we got official translations.
I'm relying on machine translation so there may be errors, but here's a snippet from page 148. "Pachacamac. Chief of the ancient Knuckles tribe. He was bold, brave and daring. The ancient Knuckles were just a bunch of ruffians, but he brought them together with discipline and wisdom, and quickly formed them into a powerful fighting force. The ambitions that had been suppressed by his mother were unleashed by her death, and Pachacamac set out on his path to supremacy."
From this we know that the Knuckles clan were violent even before Pachacamac came to power. They were always ruffians even during the time of Tikal's grandmother. Maybe centuries ago they were peaceful, but we don't know.
Another snippet from page 157, "Devastated by Chaos' attack, the Knuckles clan were weakened considerably. The surviving Knuckles tribe, using the power of the Master Emerald, levitated the area around the Emerald Altar and took up residence there, monitoring and guarding the sealed Master Emerald to ensure that such an event would never happen again. They also left inscriptions and murals in the temple to pass on the incident to future generations."
Clearly stating that the Knuckles clan themselves created Angel Island and willingly isolated themselves.
@@aaphant I'm pretty sure this going off of lore added after adventure 1 came out.
I really like those kinds of lore retelling videos from you and other channels. The Echidna Tribe's story is one of the reasons why I love SA1 and S3&K so much. Those ancient ruins and the story behind them are really one of Sonic's best plot points. And I was really excited when Frontiers dropped new lore on us. But now I have many more questions, I hope one day we'll learn more about the Ancients and the Chaos Emeralds' past.
Echidna tribe dark souls game would go crazy
It’s times like these in which I miss old school sonic with elaborate stories and lore. This video made me so excited seeing the overall big picture. I hate how SEGA was regressing back in the 2010s and pandering to classic sonic nostalgia instead of moving forward. But after Frontiers I’m glad that they are innovating and creating exciting stories again. Let’s hope they continue to keep this trend.
Yet the best sonic games were in the 2010s(Colors,Generations and Mania) with the best of the 2000s being only slightly better than Lost World
Almost as if the 00s games were really bad and damaged the brand, so they'd rather try to evoke nostalgia of the time they WEREN'T a laughingstock, and were actually rivaling Mario
@@kingtiger5040 Blabla, we're going to pretend that Unleashed, Adventure games, Rush games and Storybook games weren't good games. And guess what? They're from 2000s!
And before you come back with your "Sonic can't be serious". Remember all the games I quoted, and add IDW comics, Sonic X's Season 3, Frontiers, Dream Team and Riders games to the list, we'll see if you'll keep saying that Sonic can't have good serious stories.
this is exactly why we need an SA1 remake. Imagine these cutscenes without the technical limitations
The echidna tribe was such an interesting topic. Sonic X was likely my introduction to it from the snippets they show during the Adventure arc.
I for one love the darker lore the Sonic franchise has. It doesn't have to be lighthearted all the time!
Woah, this was pretty amazing.
I almost finished Sonic 3 & Knuckles and already finished Sonic Adventure, and the lore for Knuckles' clan was pretty dark, but still had a pretty good moral. Great vid, Chaomix.
Knuckles has really grown to be one of my favorite Sonic characters, and this backstory really fuels this fascination. A clan, tainted by violence and conquest, pay the price once they attempt to play god. This story, alongside many other things, is why I really love this series.
As both a big Sonic adventure fan and somebody really into Mesoamerican history and archeology, i've constantly mused doing a big breakdown of all of the Mesoamerican influences the Echidna have in SA1 and to a lesser extent SA2 and Shadow.
I always figured "Chaos" got his name and title by the Echidnas who survived and were left behind in the Mystic Ruins, constructing the mural in their demolished temple to warn future generations of this being they now refer to as "Chaos, the God of Destruction" and knowing their old prayers, and the power they unleashed that night, that's also how the Emeralds became known as "Chaos Emeralds"
In the Japanese translation, the emeralds are never referred to as "Chaos Emeralds" until after that night. And even in Frontiers, The Ancients can be heard to referring to them as "Chaos Gems" so this detail of the lore remains intact thankfully, cause I personally believe the Emeralds' natural state to be Super Emeralds, hence their size in the past. Well actually ig their natural state is the smaller size since Frontiers shows us this, but clearly being around the Master Emerald pushes them into an ascended state, so that's neat. But yeah the Ancients referred to them correctly, it was the Echidnas who misnamed them as all being Emeralds lol
Chaomix you're storytelling and editing is amazing! I remember watching your Shadow lore video and I was like we need more of this and I'm so glad we got this vid!
I will always ADORE the fact that the ancient Echidnas are initially presented to the player as a peaceful civilization, but as you play the game, it's gradually revealed they were in fact a bunch of violent assholes who totally deserved what happened to them. That's some cool-ass shit for a 1998 "cartoon mouse wearing sneakers" platformer imo
Except the first flashback you see (if you play through Sonic's story first) is one of the last ones chronologically, with the whole place engulfed in flames
Or might be THE last one, I'm not sure
This "Sonic's Darkest Lore" series is the new Sonic Bible. Like seriously, how do you explain Sonic lore so good?
I've been waiting for your input on the Echidna tribe for so long, I'm so happy you finally done it! Knuckles is my favourite character so seeing more into his background is amazing! Amazing video as always Chaomix!
angel island is probably one of the most important places ever with the darkest and deepest lore in the entire series
Will you ever talk about the Echidna lore of Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood? Most people overlook that game due to it not being very good, but its story and lore is genuinely really interesting (and, besides a few retcons, it's generally consistent with the Sonic canon till that point, even though it's not considered canon). I haven't seen anyone talk about it here on RUclips, so it'd be great having you do it!
I was just thinking about Chronicles being canon! Both Imperator IX and Shade are echindas, and I believe Nestor is one, too, with his ancient tablets. I really feel like they should've made a sonic Chronicles 2 by now because the ending of the game says, "The End", but then when you press the a button, it says, "The End?". I feel like that should indicate another sonic rpg, but it's been so long that I don't think they'll ever make another one. I think chronicles is one of the greatest sonic games, actually, and I love the music! It suprised me when most people didn't like it.
In Sonic Chronicles, it was revealed that the Knuckles Clan were at war with the Nocturnus Clan.
In an attempt to expand the Knuckles Clan's power, Pachacamac, the leader of the Knuckles Clan, attacked the Chao at the emerald altar to steal the Chaos Emeralds. However, Chaos retaliated by transforming into Perfect Chaos and wiped out the Knuckles Clan (as already shown in the Sonic Adventure flashbacks).
The demise of the Knuckles Clan due to Perfect Chaos allowed the Nocturnus Clan to be temporarily unopposed, before being trapped in the Twilight Cage. Eventually, Imperator Ix, the leader of the Nocturnus Clan, came up with a plan to break out of the Twilight Cage and conquer the world.
In the Sonic Movie lore the Echidna Tribe was already power hungry from the start, and the Archie Sonic lore is a whole can of worms that I don’t wanna talk about.
It’s a ritual to watch Chaomix videos while I eat
I imagine that the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald are as old as the Sonic Universe, and were scattered and gathered a few times before the ancients used them.
Something that has always confused me was the mural in Hidden Palace depicting Super Sonic fighting Dr. Robotnik in space. Of course, that happens thousands of years after the mural was made, so how did they know? What was the reason for creating a mural with a Super charged Hedgehog fighting a large moustached entity over the Master Emerald. And why specifically was it a Hedgehog? Hedgehogs don't seem to have any interesting history or lore, the Echidnas do, however. If they were going to make the mural about a being with the Emerald's power fighting for the Master Emerald, surely it would've been an Echidna
Interesting point there
Perhaps a dream? a vision? Prophecies work in mysterious ways. My assumption was that some kind of “divine vision” was given and the mural was depicting the prophecy.
@@saffie_taffie but a prophecy made 4000 years before the event transpires? From other fictional stories that feature prophecies (like Harry Potter) the prophecies are made weeks or months before it happens. A prophecy is made about Harry and Voldemort and the event spoken about happens only 2 years after the prophecy was made.
@@Ollie.H-23 There are prophecies in fiction that have been told hundreds of years prior, an example being in Percy Jackson. Heck, if you want to take irl religions and mythologies into account, many have some sort of prophecy about how the world will end, or beings that will rise one day. Even though they may have been told thousands of years ago, they are yet to happen.
We see The Master Emerald show Knuckles that pieces of it are located on the Egg Carrier. It stands to reason the Master Emerald is what gave them insight to write the prophecies, so they could be ready for future threads to the emeralds and such.
When one video proves how much better the games' stories were in the 90's and 2000's
Sadly,a large majority of those games were utter dogshit with 2 being mediocre/okay and 2 being legitimately good
@@kingtiger5040okay? Name examples, then.
@elmemearana5483 Dogshit:Shadow the hedgehog,Secret Rings,Shuffle,06,Black Knight,Chronicles and heroes
Mediocre:Unleashed and the Rush series
Good:Adventure 1 and 2(Advance series also included)
@@kingtiger5040 tbh, I would classify Secret Rings and Black Knight as truly mediocre games, since they are actually good if we're talking about story. Unfortunately, I can't say the same to controls. Same thing for Heroes.
As for Unleashed and Rush series, these guys really deserve to be in the good position. They have a solid gameplay that still works until this day, a simple but good story, momentum you can gain by memorizing the level's layout, and so on. Yes, both have their issues (especially in Unleashed's case with the Werehog levels), but I think the good stuff surpasses the bad.
@elmemearana5483 Unfortunately,gameplay is more important than story though Black Knight is much superior to Secret Rings in every measure(this doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy them both).
Unleashed basically is 20% peak sonic gameplay and 80% werehog.The game would have been the amazing if the werehog gameplay was as polished as the daytime gameplay and Rush -according to me-has impressive gameplay but poor level design(not Sonic 4 level though)
0:24 no earlier Sonic 2 (which states an achient civilization existed on West Side Island tried to misuse the emeralds and were wiped out because of it in the JPN manual) perhaps Westside South anf Angel Island and maybe even Carnival Island were all part of the same pand mass at some point before the Knuckles Clan decided to use the emeralds in their war against the Nocturnes Clan
Just a nitpick, there is no such thing as "devolve". Evolving isn't about getting stronger, it's simply how a species changes with observation that a creature more fit for their environment will better survive.
Eggmans depiction of evil tails is honestly really cool
Amazing video, I just love good Sonic lore and Adventure 1 and 2 are full of it. But you also made me enjoy Frontiers story more, I really hope update 3 fixes the biggest flaw with it!
Dang this is some the best lore I've heard in the Sonic Franchise
I love Sonic history.
Especially in the adventure games.
Love these kinds of videos because the echidna clan is one of my favorite parts of the Sonic series. One thing i wish you mentioned would be Sonic Chronicles TDB and it's further expanded lore on the echidna clan. Its one of my favorites and I do wish it was mentioned in this video. One clan being almost completely wiped out by the very being they worshipped and the other remaining tribe being banished into the Twlight Cage filled with other extremely dangerous and powerful beings. Honestly makes me wish they'd return in a future game or at least mentioned again as the Nocturnus clan did also invent the Gizoids. But overall solid video, love the content man! 👌
I always liked and preferred the more serious and story-rich and full of lore Sonic games, like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, Sonic 06, the Sonic Storybook games and Sonic Unleashed. And I am happy that Sonic Team finally remembered to retry this approach with Sonic Frontiers, even to a quite lesser extent.
06 had an awful story though
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 I feel like the story itself wasn't that bad, it had potential, but the whole hedgehog-human love thing was super weird, and kind of repetitive. (Just my opinion)
@@YourLocalNintendo I dunno, the stupid time paradox story with knockoff Future Trunks and an evil Shadow is just too convoluted and needlessly serious for Sonic. How about the massive plothole about Elise somehow never crying? Or just the fact it was one of the main games that shifted the Sonic stories away from environmentalism and stopping Eggman into these world-ending events.
Actually I don't care much for the kiss. It's easy to make fun of but Sonic is fully sentient and capable of consenting, and he doesn't exactly look like a real hedgehog so it doesn't really count as bestiality either. The bigger issue is that it seemed one-sided and she kissed him when he was unconscious.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Bro tbh I agree with most of what you just said, I just think the time paradox thing was kind of cool. Sure, it was really convoluted and needlessly complex, but I find it more fun the more confusing it is. Like decoding a puzzle, it's fun (does that make sense?) And I loved Mephiles, I think he was a great villian. I guess it kind of depends on the player. The kiss wasn't really a problem, I agree it wasn't bestiality, I just thought it was weird and unnecessary, I just wish they had more of a platonic friendship.
@@YourLocalNintendo It's dumb because the calamity Silver's coming to prevent isn't anything interesting relating to the main characters. Mephiles should've been an evil Shadow, or it could've been in a future where Sonic turned evil or Eggman took over. Instead it's a villain we only ever see in this game. In the Android Saga, Trunks went back in time to stop robots created by one of Goku's old foes, and the final villain of the arc was created by that same man and a combination of almost all of Goku's previous villains. Toriyama could've made it a random throwaway villain but he decided to do something interesting and thematically significant with it. Like the issue isn't time travel despite a lot of problems those stories tend to have, it just doesn't use it in any interesting or creative way. Let alone the entire plotline is strapped to Elise being a worthless damsel.
Not including the issue that Solaris is just another big evil monster that wanted to destroy the world, like Perfect Chaos before it or Dark Gaia after. And the fact Sonic doesn't voluntarily set it off or is even the actual Iblis Trigger at all, which could've done SOMETHING interesting for the narrative. There'd be a potential moral choice there. We don't actually really see what Silver is doing in the future or how he really got here (doesn't help that they don't even want to show who Sonic apparently had kids with), let alone how Blaze relates to this when she had a completely different backstory in Sonic Rush. The story is just too poorly thought out and was probably a product of being rushed, but honestly Sonic has never really had well-written stories.
I don't see how you think Mephiles was a good villain, I don't think Sonic has ANY good villains or even good characters. People complain about character degradation, but it's not like these characters were deep or interesting to begin with, and none of them really developed or went through arcs even in their "glory days". The closest was Shadow but even then it was only halfway decently done in one game, a game filled with melodramatic writing and bad voice acting (and the insinuation some spiky rat is the "Ultimate Lifeform"). He just kinda floats around the next few games and angsts a bit. Maybe Knuckles but he gets over that in like one game. When it comes to villains the closest to interesting we get is Eggman himself, but that's solely due to the hints he became the way he is because of the government fucking him over. But that's never explored and he's not given a particularly interesting or entertaining relationship to Sonic, he had something in the original trilogy where he represents environmental destruction and Sonic is a woodland critter defending his home (which was the original reason why there's talking animals running around), but the franchise has been long past that, sadly. Sega will never delve into anyone's backstories or motivations or let them change as people because they want to keep them static and the stories simple like other mascot platformers, but then they introduce a new character or two every game that gets some sort of arc (what I meant before was that none of the core characters are particularly interesting or well-developed), and in the Dark Era especially still tried to put all this pomp and circumstance into the plot. They want to have their cake and eat it too, at least develop the other characters if you MUST keep Sonic static (and God do I hate static heroic leads).
To close out on Eggman, unironically one of the best versions is the one from the Boom cartoon because at least he's a massive loser that Sonic at times barely tolerates. A very Doofenshmirtz and Perry the Platypus sorta relationship, it's not like Eggman was ever particularly threatening no matter what the games did. This doesn't include SatAm Robotnik, he was a nice mix of both and probably one of the few pieces of Sonic media with a decent story, characters actually develop, especially Sonic who has flaws and an interesting relationship with both Robotnik and Sally. I know it's the basis for the Archie comics but from all I've seen they were kinda hit and miss at times though they certainly tried more with characterization. Maybe IDW is also good, I hear mixed stuff with it and Ian Flynn is a bit too faithful to the source material so to speak though I definitely think his arm is a little twisted.
i love these history-focused lore videos of sonic! id love some more mephillis, so maybe a video about him could be cool!
This really make Adventure 1 feel like the story's end, and Adventure 2 feel like a new beginning.
How very fitting.
Echidna lore scares me, though. Because of Penders...
Y'know, I'm a little curious if things could've been different here; what if the echidnas weren't wiped out? What if Knuckles wasn't the last of his kind? Hmm...
In any case, this is a solid video covering this piece of Sonic lore!
I do like the idea that the ancients couldn’t sustain their water like bodies on earth so they had to devolve into the chao in order to survive. This would also explain how chaos operates notice how chaos 0 seems to only be able to be in full form for a short period as when ever we encountered him in sa1 he would always emerge and flee in a puddle it would also explain why he wasn’t able to leave the altar in the tikal flashbacks. With out the emeralds power he can’t sustain himself for a long period of time. The ancients being the chao would also explain how they can consume the energy of the chaos drives and get stronger like chaos and can’t really survive without something like chaos energy. God if they really thought of all that when writing the ancients storyline then maybe Sonic writing is starting to turn around.
I think 15:22 is an interesting point of discussion, as although we see them move on and ascend to the sky, the Sonic Frontiers Prologue shows they are both still alive and present in some capacity, even if only spiritually. Maybe Tikal's seal keeps them apart of the master emerald, but since Chaos's hatred and rage is gone they now help Knuckles protect the emerald. May be a bit of a retcon but I wouldn't mind seeing them reappear more to flesh out Knuckles's character.
We don’t know that the ancient devolved into chao, but it would explain Chaos’ fondness for them. We also don’t that a chao mutated into Chaos. It is more likely that one of the ancients became Chaos, perhaps due to not having one of those koco avatars or maybe due to closer interaction with the power of the Master Emerald, maybe an ancient precursor of the Guardians of the Master Emerald. Again, it would explain Chaos’ fondness for the chao. Also Chaos does not reside IN the Master Emerald, but rather he merges with the surrounding waters. He has only been inside the Master Emerald after Tikal imprisoned him inside it and only until the Master Emerald was broken in Sonic Adventure. It also seems like Chaos is more interested in protecting the chao, rather than the emeralds, seeing as how in SA2, Rouge clearly took the Master Emerald into the desert, before Knuckles stopped her. That’s also when Knuckles himself broke the Master Emerald and Chaos was nowhere to be found, further proving that Chaos resides on Angel Island (if the Sonic Frontiers prologue animation is to be believed).
Notice that every playable Sonic character in SA1 gets some ancient-ish power-up, Sonic gets the Ancient Light, Tails gets some badge, Knuckles gets digging claws, Amy gets a bow/hairclip etc.
It was really cool for frontiers to make its story serve to give this kind of background to such a classical part of sonic lore
I am absolutely loving this kind of content. Keep it up dude! 👍
I love world building in any form of media, And the fact that Sonic games from way different eras are all connected in some way like 3&k, sa1 and frontiers is just music to my ears.
I really love these lore videos that you do they’re very interesting and I would honestly like to see more of you discussing about stuff like this.
More to come!
@@chaomixyay!
@@chaomix hurrah
Why do you have to make such good videos? Now my Sonic obsession is coming back 😭
Oh well guess it's time to install some of the games I haven't played yet 😅
you actually inspired me to do my own sonic marathon. its a short one where i play all 4 classics, both episodes of sonic 4 and both adventure games. and im starting adventure 1 soon. came out at the perfect time. i might watch this video before i play just to get caught up with the echidna tribe lore.
This sure was interesting to watch about the knuckles tribe
YES FINALLY MORE SONIC'S DARKEST LORE VIDEOS I LOVE THESE VIDEOS THEY R THE BEST.
also please make the next episode of sonic's darkest lore let it be the story of solaris and princess elise
Too bad Ken Penders prevents this topic from being explored further. It has so many possibilities for the series to explore.
thanks for this awesome content. I love the more lore based videos of yours!
7:04 I guess this how the war between them and Nocturnes clan started
Frontiers basically recontextualizes everything from SA1. And for me as an old fan, it's all incredibly surreal. Ian Flynn pretty much opened the narrative floodgates; in terms of worldbuilding there hasn't been anything this significant in the games canon since... I wanna say Unleashed. And then the man also had the audacity to just outright connect the comic book (as well as sonic boom!?!?!) canon to the games with those few bits of dialogue from Sonic and co. mentioning Tangle and Sticks. Like wtf LOL
this was super well done. very
interesting
Damn this hole goes incredibly deep.
With all the fan characters in the fandom and people making characters based on single lines of dialog, etc. I'm surprised I've only ever seen a single person tackle making Grandma into a character.
Chaomix, the teaser thumbnail is way better than the current thumbnail
A knuckles game where you travel back in time or someone shit learning more about the echidna tribe would be nuts
I always wondered if they did sacrifices since they’re based off mesoamerican tribes in particular the Mayans.
Tikal was an Important “capital” of the Mayans and even though their far away, pachacamac was similar just far south in Peru
So I wondered if they did sacrifices and it’s my head cannon that they did
This, if executed well or okay, could be a very interesting story for Knuckles in the Idw comics. Because Knuckles has barley done anything in idw especially when compared to archie. For the most part he's a minor character at best and background character at worst. In Sonic DX, when Knuckles is shown the past of his people, he only saw the bare minimum. So a story of him learning about the dark history of his clan and how he deals with that info would be interesting for his character.
God I love Sonic lore, it’s so cool. It’s why I love the world, the characters, and the stories
The history of the Echidna tribe and what transpired has always been one of my favorite lore when it some to the Sonic franchise, and this video perfectly explains it. Thank you so much for this
Is it just me or do the chaos emeralds in the SADX flashbacks look more like the super emeralds? I mean the fact they are bigger and on pillars surrounding the master emerald it gives off a Sonic 3 and Knuckles super emerald altar vibe. It could just be me or maybe it was a little nod to those who played Sonic 3 and Knuckles and unlocked Hyper Sonic or at the very least found the secret giant ring knuckles tried to hide.
You know, if you think about it, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are very similar to each other. In terms of gameplay, both games have a main roster of six playable characters, including Sonic, Tails and Knuckles, plus another major character in the franchise (Amy in Adventure 1, and Eggman in Adventure 2, with the other appearing as a major NPC in the other game), a new major character meant to have a recurring presence in the series (Big in Adventure 1, and Rouge in Adventure 2), and a new anti-heroic character with ties to Eggman, who's apparently killed at the climax of their side of the story (Gamma in Adventure 1, and Shadow in Adventure 2; though as later games would establish, Gamma's legacy would live on in Omega, and Shadow survived the big fall at the end of Adventure 2 at the cost of losing his memory, which he would recover from as time progressed). Both games also have the main style of 3D gameplay, plus treasure hunting stages, shooting stages, a kart racing minigame, and of course, the Chao Garden with Chao Race. The plots of both games are similar too. Both involve an expansion on the lore of one main character's ancestors (Knuckles' ancient tribe in Adventure 1, and Eggman's family in Adventure 2), and we see flashbacks of them during the game, with the actions of one individual of great authority from these times (Pachacamac in Adventure 1, and Gerald Robotnik in Adventure 2) influencing the present day conflict, and also featuring a younger relative of theirs (Tikal in Adventure 1, and Maria in Adventure 2) who wants peace, with their own influence helping the heroes during the conflict (in the form of Tikal herself appearing as a spirit in Adventure 1, and Shadow fulfilling Maria's dying wish in Adventure 2). The plots also have Eggman's forces obtaining six of the Chaos Emeralds, with the last one being held by Sonic and his pals until they lose it near the end, and involve some vicious creature with ties to the ancestors' story (Chaos in Adventure 1, and the Biolizard in Adventure 2), with the climax having Super Sonic fight to save the world from a more powerful version of these beasts (Perfect Chaos in Adventure 1, and the Finalhazard in Adventure 2).
Exactly, ive always loved that. And im sure they were aware of it, as the climax of the game happens literally at the ME altar, as well as "Madness" being basically the second part to "Danger!" track from SA1, and it is the only SA1 track that gets such a heavy reference in 2. Its like poetry, it rhymes etc etc
B-b-b *BLOOD* but the children Choamix *THE CHILDREN!!!*
Yes! This is the kind of Sonic story that I've always loved.
Frontiers feels like a sequel to SA1.
1:02 The tonal shift in music in this part was just hilarious
gotta stay silly sometimes
Makes me wonder, how do the dark Gaia and the light Gaia emerald shrines fit into this?
Amazing video, man!
Yippee new Chaomix video
Awesome content Chaomix!
There’s just something I didn't understand
If Chaos and Tikal moved on the "afterlife" then why did we see Tikal in her glowing form in the Knuckles prologue?
Because they actually didn't, heck Chaos even helps out in Sonic Battle.
Back when Sega cared about Knuckles backstory ☺
Love it when Chaomix breaks out the dramatic narrator voice.
Love your thumbnails. They are one of my favorite sonic fan artworks
Ayyy a new chaomix video also u sound so serious in the intro
Keep up the great work and videos chaomix
i've been waiting for this...for so long...
This video was very well edited gj
Chaos and Tikal did not go to the afterlife, as implied the image you get at the end they instead both go back to Angel Island. (Both even making a small cameo on Angel Island in Frontiers Divergence) Chaos even helps out and is playable in Sonic Battle and if Ian is to be believed is responsible for holding the oceans in place in Sonic Unleashed. Chaos' continued presence also helps explain why Knuckles OK with just leaving the ME unguarded when he goes off to help Sonic.
Um... For Divergence it was just a flashback.
@@maryafantalia4357
No it wasn't, you can clearly see both Tikal (in orb form) and Chaos (in puddle form, as water doesn't ripple that way naturally) after the flash back around the 1:08 mark in modern day.
comments and corrections
most of these are taken from the Sonic Adventure Navigation Guide
3:12 the phantom ruby in mania is shown to be able to detransform classic Sonic from super sonic.
3:16 The ancients did not seek refuge. From the cutscenes its shown that due to the Emeralds reacting to the Master Emerald they were unable to fully control the ship and had to land on earth.
3:33 Its unlikely that the Ancients created sky sanctuary. Not only is the color and architecture different from Both The Starfall Island and the structures of the Knuckles Clan, but in the Knuckles prologue he points out that the Portal from the Ancients is actually older than sky sanctuary. Likely meaning it came significantly before.
And seeing as it was not connected to the structure from what we can see, its unlikely to have been made by those that made Sky Sanctuary.
Sky Sanctuary's creators are still unclear and aside from the Knuckles tribe frontiers dosent do enough to prove who else its connected to. I will edit this post once more info is revealed
3:29 the Ancients settled on the Starfall Islands first, not the mystic ruins. From a flashback we know that the Ancients settled on the Starfall Islands an a subset went to the Master Emerald while the rest stayed to fight off the end with the Titans and seemingly died out. Piecing together Eggman and Sage comments we can surmise that its due to the environmental conditions/ climate on the island in the wake of The End's attack.
3:54 the reason we know that the chao are connected to the Ancients is due to Eggman's audio log, Egg Memo#11 where sage confirms a connection between the chao and the ancients via chaos, who we know from previous entiries, is a mutated variant of a chao.
the chao are infact, the anthesis of the Koco. Where the chao represent the physical essence of the Ancients, being their mutated body, while the Koco represent the psychological/ spiritual essence, retaining the memory of the ancients and their personality and will.
They are opposites in many ways as well. The chao are soft while to Koco are hard. The chao organic, the koco artificial cus they were originally toys/ token the Ancients once held that seemed to gain their sentience after the fact. The koco the past while the chao show advacement and continuous evolution. The chao being the living, the descendants of the ones that escaped to the mystic ruins, while the koco are the dead, their very existence a shadow of the lives the ancients once lived and gain closure via death with the help of Sonic and friends.
They are equals and opposites.
4:24 we dont know if chaos ever sealed himself within the master emerald. The explanation for his long life is that hes a mutated chaos chao and chaos chao in game are immortal, likely meaning that chais is biologically immortal as well.
Theres no indication hes ever sealed himself in the Master Emerald prior to the chaos event 3000yrs ago.
4:31 the only indication that chaos was worshiped are in two cases. As the guardian God of the chao by the chao, and as a God if Destruction, seemingly after the chaos event where he wiped out the tribe.
He is only depicted as perfect chaos in the Echidna Shrine (the big temple) and its after the chaos incident meant to depict him as dangerous and a warning to their descendants about what happened in the past according to the Sonic Adventure Navigation Guide
4:50 Tikal's grandma dosent seem to have been the first leader as the Sonic Adventure Navigatio guide says that she was part of a more politically moderate faction. So a system of government was seemingly already established, she was just the leader. The prayer Tikal recites was a poem she inherited from her grandmother that was part of the ledgends of the chaos emeralds. So the knuckles already had a preexisting history we dont know of. The poem itself was said to have been handed down to the knuckles
5:02 they werent pacifists. The guide describes the echidnas as a mere band of ruffians before Pachacamac took over. The echidna tribe was already a fighting force, just not a very big one. Even Tikal herself is called a proud warrior of the knuckles, with her only disadvantage being her short reach
5:12 the knuckles tribe seems to know very little about the chao. The knuckles also didnt look after the chao, tikal was the only one that was close to the chao and chaos cus she went there without alterior motives
5:17 they did not worship chaos and were not guardians. the only members of the knuckles tribes that we know if thatbwere guardians were the survivors of the chaos incident
on Angel island that gave themselves the role of guardian to protect the master emerald
5:33 they were not privy to the emeralds secrets. they only had ledgends and they did not know how to use its power, nor did they understand the Master Emerald or its role.
At one point they may have understood since the poem was inherited, but both tikal and Pachacamac did not understandm Tikal only understood when chaos showed her the Master Emerald
7:05 they wouldnt have called them neighbors. even before pachacamac gained power the time of the knuckles was already a time of local warlords fighting
8:07 he wasnt even in the master emerald in the clip you showed.
8:37 mentioned this already. he wasnt their god
10:22 we know some of the knuckles tribe were not on Angel island cus they most likely made the tablets that eggman found explaining details about perfect chaos in the mystic ruins as well as the existence of the mural in the knuckles shrine
This video seems to have a lot of misinformation thanks for correcting it
It's really cool to learn about these sonic facts in these videos
This is super well researched~ Awesome video!!
Always love watching video documentaries
Gotta love seeing a nice Chaomix post
hey playa, saw ur post on twitter so im here and watching with my eyeballs
Can’t wait for more great content!
For crying out loud , they never said they created the Chaos Emeralds.
They could just as easily be from the same planet , and got ejected to another planet.
Because the Master Emerald could neutralize all forms of chaotic energy.
As for why and how things happened , open ended writing is good for sequels.
Beautifully spoken. Excellent use of footage
Epic vid chaomix