David Bohm speaks about Wholeness and Fragmentation (ENGL SUBS)
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- Опубликовано: 24 сен 2024
- Excerpt from the documentary "Art Meets Science and Spirituality in a Changing Economy - From Fragmentation to Wholeness" Artists, scientists, spiritual leaders and economists gathered in Amsterdam in 1990 to explore the emerging paradigm of a holistic world view and the implications for a global economy. The five day confernce, Art Meets Science and Spirituality in a Changing Economy was inspired by the artists Joseph Beuys and Robert Filliou, and manifested by Louwrien Wijers, who called it a "mental sculpture."
Watch the entire film "Art Meets Science & Spirituality in a Changing Economy (Dalai Lama, David Bohm, Robert Rauschenberg) 1/5" here: • Art Meets Science & Sp...
You can also find a playlist with all five films from this conference here: • Playlist
David Bohm (1917-1992) was an American theoretical physicist who contributed innovative and unorthodox ideas to quantum theory, philosophy of mind, and neuropsychology. He is widely considered to be one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century.
In physics, Bohm advanced the view that the old Cartesian model of reality was limited, in the light of developments in quantum physics. He developed in detail a mathematical and physical theory of implicate and explicate order to complement it.
Bohm warned of the dangers of rampant reason and technology, advocating instead the need for genuine supportive dialogue which he claimed could broaden and unify conflicting and troublesome divisions in the social world. In this his epistemology mirrored his ontological viewpoint.
He believed that the working of the brain, at the cellular level, obeyed the mathematics of some quantum effects. Therefore he postulated that thought was distributed and non-localised in the way that quantum entities do not readily fit into our conventional model of space and time (Wikipedia).
See also the David Bohm-Playlist "David Bohm - Conversations, Seminars and Dialogues with Jiddu Krishnamurti" here: • David Bohm - A Portrai...
When the Dalai Lama fixes someone's mic so people can hear him speak more clearly, you bet your ass we need to listen to him!
Amin
9:48
Bang on..! Also you bet your ass that Dalai Lama vibes are the same as David B. suggests that wholeness is the attitude and not a place. That attitude demonstrated by Dalai Lama is what wholeness is
no one listens to dalai lama
Nice to see the love for Bohm in the comments. A few years ago, no one was watching. Now the views are increasing. I feel Bohm's ideas will come to fruition in the future. Don't know when or how but they will.
"If we can have a coherent approach to reality, then reality will respond coherently to us...." love it
Yeah, basically, the seeds to all the answers required by modern humanity are in this piece here.
Absolutely incredible philosophical and objective view of life and how we interact with the universe as human beings.
Can't say that anybody in a position to do anything about making things better is listening to this, but one can only hope the Pearls of Wisdom fall on a fertile ear somewhere that can make a difference.
Go in peace, be kind and stay positive in the face of an unknown future.
"The desire to compete is not a weakness, but a mistake."
we been sold to dream big, to become, to win, all mistakes.
Tell that to Mother Nature...
Mike Simmons, "the desire to...." Not the competition when it takes place.
Yes it's sound good
It depends. Can cooperate if it's not cooperating to defeat something else? Even if the thing you are trying to defeat is something as simple as starvation.
Competition and cooperation are like Yin and Yang. You probably can't have one without the other. They probably even need some balance. You can't be all competitive or all cooperative.
The Dalai Lama fixed David Bohm's mic... and my heart smiled.
I love this man. I have him on my ipod and listen to him speak when I walk in the mountains.
+Citizen Nobody That is fantastic.
me too! i don't have mountains close by so I listen to him while walking in the fields
I do that with Jacque Fresco. No mountains here though
I really love the kindness of david bohm. that in combination with his brilliant mind is fantastic!
Those who are in sync with the universe are only like him . They rest of things are useless.
Love how the Dalai Lama is "just the background"!
Note how at 10:51 the Dalai Lama adjusts the microphone so David can be heard more clearly. This is wholeness in action.
it seems that you and whoever gave EWE the thumbs up are both INCOHERENT
10:51 eh?
where????????????????
I went looking, thanks for wasting my TIME
EWE are both INCOHERENT in your message!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
duhhhhhhhhhhhh EWE meant 9:51?
and it is the sheep who will claim every word in the bible is the word of god yet look how one simple message gets screwed up from you to me?
David Bohm was one of the greatest minds this world has ever seen. He grasps the most essential concepts about life and rhe ineffable
Always impressed by David Bohm's work. Have to admit I have to listen or read him several time before I can really grasp many of his concepts.
Thanks for posting...
This is wonderful . He is the first scientist I found who thinks about the future of Mankind . He is really different from all the other scientist . He gives the answer to all the questions asked to him very clearly . I think others scientist must learn from him.
Thanks.
Geez you are stupid as fuck and throws shit out of your mouth daily fosure
@@ZkaLy6 What made you to say that?
@@yanry7152 I don't know bro perhaps because the way this dude have written like worshiping David perhaps it triggered my hate I don't know
Far from the first and far from the last. But he is so coherent and clear to understand, compared to similar if not greater minds... ( I get where the others get at it, they try to bring up metaphors and ways to navigate thinking to allow them to lead to the right way to think-- however such people want Quick Answers and likely won't believe the cold dried out facts if you give it to them straight....
So it's a disaster, people who tend to love power in politics will seek Any Ends and coercion to get it, and thus strengthen the tragedy of the commons...
Idk if there's a solution honestly... Maybe Watts's thinking that "the fool in his folly becomes wise" is the only true way...
Already I've failed in convincing perhaps the biggest activist of saving Florida's nature coast that we don't want absolute good- instead we need to break bread and make compromises with the corrupt enemies- otherwise we will kill the world over just plain thought and absolute good Depends on absolute evil and vice versa... (Just as regulated hunting on a state level saved the American alligator species-- NOT outright banning gator hunting, that just creates a black market and Huge Demand (tho alligators had already been basically wiped extinct and then rebounded long before being labelled as an "endangered species"
@3:09- Do you think the desire to compete is a weakness? It's not a weakness, it's a mistake.
That answer he gave made my week!
Can you cooperate if it's not cooperating to defeat something else? Even if the thing you are trying to defeat is something as simple as starvation.
Competition and cooperation are like Yin and Yang. You probably can't have one without the other. They probably even need some balance. You can't be all competitive or all cooperative.
3:09..do you think the desire to compete is a weakness? "it's not a weakness it's a mistake"
so the first thing we have to do is look at our whole way of thinking....have a dialogue in which we listen deeply to the views of other people without resistance...suspended as it were without carrying them out and without suppressing them...
6:15...you have this movement and I call this the implicate or enfolded order which unfolds into the explicate order....
7:05....consciousness is really our most immediate experience of this implicate order...
8:00...if science takes a fragmentary world view it will have a profound effect on consciousness....
9:22...if we can have a coherent approach to reality then reality will have a coherent response to us...
9:50...
10:45...consciousness is an internal relationship to the whole, we take in the whole....whatever we have taken in determines basically what we are...
Exactly
A true hero. I wish I could have met him in person. He will be famous. A total genius .
me too.... but by his standards we have formed an internal relationship with him jus by reading his works and therefore have met him.... Bohm has given me hope in times of despair...
wow I just read your response. I love it. true. He is alive, and his ideas are diffusing :) I am embedding him in my Masters thesis.
Drew innerearth ; I read the holographic universe by Michael Talbot back in 1991, I was still in school then, it left a big mark & I've studied cosmology, quantum physics and all manner of theoretical ideas since. if you want to know more i strongly recommend material by Roger penrose and David hameroff (spelling!) you should find them as interesting as bohm.
The problem is though that his ideas aren't entirely original, they keep coming back up in philosophy yet being ignored because people deem them too "unintuitive" even though they solve pretty much all the major philosophical "paradoxes." The reason the Dalai Lama is next to him is because Buddhist philosophy had argued against reducing nature to separable things for thousands of years. This viewpoint made its way into materialist philosophy in the 1800s largely starting with Friedrich Engels and his book _Dialectics of Nature_ which not only expresses very similar ideas to Bohm on purely materialist grounds, but we know Bohm was heavily influenced by it. Today we still have physicists arguing this point of view like Carlo Rovelli. Yet, they too remain the more "fringe" opinion. There seems to be a perpetual cycle of holism resurfacing continually because it's clearly correct and resolves philosophical paradoxes and leads to a consistent worldview, and it disappearing again because nobody listens.
@@amihartz Yes, I see your point very clearly! Did you study holism? How did you come about knowing that?
I had a dream that I was told to write down the word Bio Fragmentation and it led me here 🤔💥
At last. Someone able to communicate and join the dots thus resonating with everyone of us. May all beings benefit 🙏🏼
Thank you for posting and to David Bhom for his wisdom, very inspiring!
As the video continues he s trying his best not to alienate his audience. He understands their mindset and their Ego.
This is such an interesting video.
When the chair says certain phrases like "new consciousness " and " can we think our way through things" I can see this is the problem, To think isn't to know. The more you think about it the more you move away from the solution. The solution comes in moments of silence and the willingness to let go of thoughts and then to allow the real intelligence to flow.
"The Earth is one household"
Highly respect for this guy. True gem.
I needed this video today, with so much emtpy material owing published each second .
this is a really big, COHERENT video. Amazing man.
Just brilliant!
Sin duda el físico mas importante de los últimos 40 años. Revolucionario que muy pocos se atreven a considerarlo, platicando con Mario Bunge, el cual fue su alumno de post doctorado, me dijo que su relación con el término cuando Bohm se convirtió a la 'mistica'... En fin, muy pocos se atreven a combinar cosas como las que planteo Bohm !!!
8:16
I love the smirk on the Dalai Lama has when Bohm speaks. He knows his boy is cooking up 😅😅
Bohm pointed out the duality of thoughts in our way of approaching the human problems. On one side thought itself create the problems and then try to overcome it by witnessing as separate problem.
What we have taken in from the whole conciousness determines who we are.....
What a humble and peaceful individual
This all makes good clear sense and I love the Dalai Lama's intent towards David Bohm.
Society has always been run by greedy corporations using divide and rule and seperateness and competition. Now's the time for the tables to turn.
Thank you David Bohm ❤️
I love bohm. But... We need to recognize the genius in ourselves. Internally what bohm speaks some of these feelings we feel them but disregard them as "invaluable" then it comes from someone with a mighty title and its gold! No good, we must see the genius in ourselves first and foremost then recognize it in others. However there is nothing wrong with learning from others.
Beautifully put. Funny how we need the confirmation from someone like this to validate what we already know. Awe, humans are so cute and complex all at once aren't we.
Very well said. This is something I felt like I've always sort of known too. It makes me wonder if a child instinctually would without all the division and conformity that comes from modern life.
Eye opening, mind blowing explanation by David Bohm.
Absolutely wonderful. Thank you for the upload.
Such a beautiful interview man.
At present, when it is most needed, we do not see debates speaking with this sincerity about humanity. Only debates about politics, art, science... Nothing that addresses the totality.
By the way, Bohm relates consciousness to the implicate order. Recall that in the dialogues with Krishnamurti, consciousness is inferred to be knowledge, thought. Therefore, consciousness, as fragmentation, would represent the explicate order (although both orders are the same mind or totality dividing and reunifying itself, in a constant flow).
The reference to the hunter-gatherer human being is very accurate. Thought was not crystallized, the observer had not dissociated from the observed, therefore, "thought occupied its place". With hardly any names, concepts, abstract entities, space-time (memory) was of minimal relevance, so that traveling long distances in search of food, for example, was not a big job. The problem-solution duality of thought began to crystallize with the emergence of civilization.
Fragmentation is the illusion. In self realisation there is only oneness.
What a beautiful mind and man
Great man!!!
Absolutely. Great human
I love where he laughs a bit in between answers...I totally laughed with him :)
Geh
All in all is all we are
I might have to steal that one 😅😊
Brilliant talk by a brilliant man!
consciousness, where does it originate? "i don't think it originates in time"...blessings to all
I hate people writing quotes of the video into the comment section.
But this is just a bookmark for me:
Science replaced religion as new world view and therefore if science takes a fragmentary world view, it will have a profound effect on consciousness.
Next level interpretations
He understood so much but seemed so very very unhappy. That helps me understand beyond or separate from what he talks about.
dalai lama just chilling in the background. lol
Everything contains everything 😊🌈👍
Brilliant 👏👏👏👏
What sungless is dalai lama wearing?
A sensitive intelligent man.
10:28 Sarah Bohm?
Once we all raise to a higher consciousness such as David or should I say "catch up" the people of this planet will cognize the true meaning of what he speaks of. There is no way to explain a different reality to a 3D reality.
Instant communication with Krishnamurti.......like hearing GaGa for first time...revelation!
Respect!
The way he gives of a little chuckle after each profound statement lol....
“The earth is one household, really.” (1:50). ECOLOGY < Gk. “oikos” (dwelling, home) +. “logia” (word, study of). Exactly right to point out the fallacy of thinking of “environment” as something separate from ourselves. Bohm’s thinking seems very kindred with that of, say, the 0:33 anthropologist Mary Catherine Bateson regarding cybernetics-thinking about systems rather than isolated fragments. (See ruclips.net/video/nXQraugWbjQ/видео.html).
Increase in knowledge
THANKS
Who said "waves create erosion"? @12:26
There's something in the 3rd eye of the Dalai Lama on 0:04
haha
Very good.
Who are the two guys on the right side of the moderator?
The economist Stanislav Menshikov and the artist Robert Rauschenberg. The 50-minute discussion under this title: "Art Meets Science & Spirituality in a Changing Economy (Dalai Lama, David Bohm, ...)"
@@Peacefulness1 ahh, thanks
Ajjaaj I'm not against any religion at all (altho perhaps I should) but what a punch when he said "I don't think there is such thing as first sin at all" ahha
Dalai Lama lookin sharp with those sunnies
Man can of course change that which he created. Though it will only be with a different type of value system and thinking. If the dollar or it's equivalent is GOD (the purity and connection of the universe), how can that worship of money and it's adjoining value of mindless greed produce anything but what we have on earth now?
I am that I am
The desire to compete is not a weakness, it is the divine formula.
God loves violence.
I know you. We've known each other for centuries.
7:51
when his highness the Dalai Lama nods when you talk, you know you're on the good path
Getting some major Hegelian vibes from Dr. Bohm
The order creates anarchy and anarchy creates order says the Russian expert. Not much of an order, if it 'creates' anarchy
Apne AAP se baghna hi Maine sikha
6:22
Dalai lama is so funny
What I can hear is a man saying what non-white people have being talking about for thousands of years. The idea we are in everything is Ancient Egyptian and is documented in their texts.
It seems we all have a purpose in this world.
At first you give a lot of attention these 'experts' and authorities on consciousness and truth...then you realize there are no such things, each one of us is a microcosm of the cosmos...there is no center, no heirarchy in life...in the universe...just life.
I find your notion very interesting. And I think I have come across your comments elsewhere in some other video. Maybe in some Linda Moulton video. Actually, I have a lot to discuss with people like you. But for now, let's just begin with a Hi!! :-)
@@robrobinhembram305 Umm.. Hi
hi, i'm not a native speaker. Can anybody simply summarize what he says about the problem of ecology? why does it end up creating the problem while trying to solve it?
Sir, if i may to resume an answer to your question, it seem Doctor Bohm believed those problems are based on Human conscious. to solve those problems the consciousness must totally change.
I tried just to use some simple words to reply to your question.
Best Regards.
He means how can human beings solve a problem outside when they have created from the inside. For instance how can we think by changing society we are changing ourselves, we must change ourselves to change society. That's what I get from it.
sinkiy Quite Right Sir, Quite Right. That is what He said.
The Problem is inside. the problem is "Me" and His Solutions.
One must first to solve that problem, then from there attack to our problems.
It Seem It is Really The Only issue. Best Regards.
Are you persian? Your name is persian Koroush the great!! hah
sinkiy Good non value general Culture :-) i was born and grow up in iran. But i don't belong to any nation with all their stupid nonsenses three Colors tissue. and as you know, the name i haven't choose. call me as you want. :-)
Best Regards.
David_¿es el puro hebreo la autoridad en tierra? El lugar teniente ,quién espera en infinita compasión, es el espíritu crucificado en el vegetal. es la promesa de redimir también de la mente desordenada a todo el genero humano.
The Dalai Lama should learn English with David Bohm
welcome to the rabbit hole enter at your own risk
Yes thought makes all the problems and then tries to solve them with more thought, an endless web ensues, we are caught... for now :-)
Likewise societies, by nature, create the problem by cultivating the (1) Ego (the only way that societies can maintain cohesion) and which divorces us gradually from our own nature as living beings. Then, the dysfunction that ensues due to that creation of ego (identification with the thoughts of who we are, instead of the energy body/soul), they claim will be solved by the idol of (2) Progress.
Progress, however, is just an outgrowth of the ego and continues us further down the path of disharmony with nature.... like a dog caught in endless loops, chasing it's own tail ;-)
The only way out is a return to identification with the energy body, the soul. The energetic field that surrounds us, our attitude, emotion, aura or our soul that contains all memory of significant moments from our past, connections with those who were dear to us; this is what we can begin to identify with and thereby change the world from the bottom up, organically, as they say :-)
Look them they don't try to understand what Mr bhom try to say
Unfortunately David Bohm is hardly understood by the party behind the table. Admitted, if you do not grasp the concept of the enfolded (or intricate) order it makes it hard to follow these lucid thoughts..
Greed anger and delusion?
It seems to me that competition is simply biologically ingrained - I am 'wired' to seek the best mate, etc. in order to enhance the chances of my genes successfully continuing. This unconscious drive manifests itself differently in different circumstances - a muscleman with great eyesight (i.e. a talented hunter/provider) was likely very attractive to females of the hunter-gatherer time, whereas a bespectacled and spindle-armed physician is rarely single and lonely today. Everyone operates this way, and that is, I think, largely why we are doomed, so to speak. I wish this issue had been addressed by Dr. Bohm, here, as well as his written work.
Hey John..
Who's the "wirer"?
Origins have to be discussed. After all, everything here is Causal......right? OR wrong?
That very premise of creatures being aware of their genes continuing or not is an abstraction not rooted in the daily bio-automata of eating shitting fucking...
Attributing the "continuation of genes" as a deliberate act rather than an unconscious/automatic drive is pure humanoid projection... not even many humans act that out
Einstein's protégé, David Bohm.... When Einstein was trying to discover the theory of everything, and couldn't do it, he said, "If anybody can do it, Bohm can." That's a pretty strong endorsement from the greatest scientist in history. Unfortunately, Bohm's speaking skills do not match his brilliance in physics; but he is absolutely worth listening to, nevertheless.
Best thing about dr bohm is thaat he is great listener
Look at his dialogue with j KrishnaMurti
You may never know he is a physicist because he never split his knowledge on other but rather just listen
sorry i thought i seen einstein and greatest scientist in history instead of nikola tesla
Why is the Dalai Lama grinning all the time?
Cause he really is understanding what Bhom is saying.
I do believe if “God” were talking to “Man” he may speak in the words of David Bohm. Were that mankind may heed these words more now than in the 90s we may yet get to coherence.
He seems to be parroting jk
I think David understood these things for himself... not sure if he is parroting
He SEEMS to be parroting jk but the REALITY is that jk parroted him!
You do have a point. He is using JK words indeed.
I think that parroting os a far too demeaning term. The man has the right to repeat JK words because he understood the meaning of it, and not the superficiality of them letters.
Idk if u know but he was the one seeking to understand what JK brought up after his wife read a JKs book.
So, at least it seems to, that he understood what JK had to teach, and to me, he is a much better teacher, in the sense that the way he speaks make much clear to grasp the same ideias that JK taught.
Funny thing is that I manage to grasp what JK meant after hours and hours of listening only when I listened David Bohm explaining the same thing (To know my self or experience the experiencer or observe the observer which are not separated from each other hahaah as if it is any external object)
I'm not smart enough for this
Sure you are; they just haven't broken it down to other levels. There a lots of ways to make something understandable, they're just speaking at their own level. I'm not criticizing them for it but don't let it make you think you're not smart enough.
The wisdom is astute. But wven as he is talking about the competitive " mistake " in society that creates benefactors and sufferers I see not one single female on the panel and only a couple in the audience. ..as long as you leave out half the population from these gatherings you will not have a wholeness which we all deserve.
Afteral he does say we need to have a complete dialogue
His thoughts regarding wholeness and harmony were wildly inclusive for the year 1990 and I'm not aware of any feminist economic voices operating in the realm of spirituality or quantum mechanics from that era who wielded public influence at the level of Bohm or the Dalai Lama who would round out the panel at that moment in time. Though I'm rather certain his genderless message would have been entirely compatible and strengthened by such a panel.
To my knowledge, Bohm has never described the implicate order from which consciousness arises as gendered in either polarity, instead, more unified and harmonized. That would imply fragmentation, the very thing he is speaking about overcoming.
Now it seems to be the opposite. We have masses of idiots (male and female) talking endlessly and frantically about NOTHING from their OWN EGOS & IDEOLOGIES. Everywhere. They never listened to what people like Bohm actually said - which he actually demonstrated scientifically. All down to the human ego.
Disappointed to see someone who discovered an important aspect of quantum mechanics trying to make it the answer to everything. He doesn't understand that his little hammer isn't suited to every nail. Bohm says some surprisingly banal things about the organisation of society. It's as if he thinks we, like the unthinking particles, can always find the optimal answer by tuning in to the "will of the universe" If we even had the ability to do such a thing, there would be no politics at all. BUT WE DON'T!
Hi. I do not think you can use the word banal in relation to anything David Bohm said, and have an understanding of what this most humble of men uncovered while he was with us.
Meh, he's too influenced by the Rousseauian idea idea that society ("oppressive" social structures in the lingo of the Left) is to blame for human problems, to be wholly reliable. But some good ideas and formulations nonetheless.
All issues related to "motion in space" are in fact "tangent" to the issue of "Truth" or "Reality" itself. Tangent means "to touch"; tangent is also implicated in "motion" as an infinity of connected "leading edges" of any motion. These ideas instill the false sense that Material is fundamental, yet this not only has been 100% disproved by experiment & observation (Pauling), but a model to explain motion w/o reducing to "tangents" exists too (Langan), yet lacks Physical formalization. In reality no two physical things touch and transmit force; science has come to the opposite conclusion to that presumption upon which it was founded.
Hey man, i follow your comments everywhere on CTMU and i am a follower of it, i'm writing a blog post in an attempt to explain it, would you care to review it? It's on r/CTMU Thanks. Us syntactic operators must stick together to help the coming revolution!
Power brokers love to deal in incoherence, any mention of coherence constitutes a threat. The modern thrust of Academia shows how the rabble of incoherent nonsense has overtaken reasonable discourse, and not just in obvious cases like radical feminism or deconstructivism and such, but in the drain-spiral that modern physics and biology have become. The institution feeds off power and money, and conspiracy or not, promotes incoherence and intolerance over progress as a means to furthering its consolidation of power & control. No different than European medieval religious institutions.
Power has always corrupted its holders. The pen always mightier than the sword. Your comment is 5 years old yet still relevant to the current situation in the world. Truth transcends time it seems, and we are doomed to repeat our history.
@@josiahz21 Increasingly so, as the power is ever more concentrated with the technocrats.