J. Krishnamurti & David Bohm - Brockwood Park 1980 - The Ending of Time - Conversation 13
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2024
- J. Krishnamurti & David Bohm - Brockwood Park 1980 - 13: The ending of psychological knowledge
Summary:
Why are our minds always operating in a certain direction?
What shall I do, as a human being, realising that knowledge is naturally, inevitably forming a groove in which I live? How am I to break it down?
Pure observation, which is actually listening, is that pure observation love?
When I ask you to tell me what to do, I am back in the field of knowledge.
We have tried everything -- fasting, every kind of thing to get rid of the 'me' with all its knowledge, with all its illusions. One tries to identify with something else, which is the same. A serious man has done all this and comes back to the fundamental question: what will make this wall totally disappear?
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David Bohm was such a thoughtful interlocutor. He was one of the few, with Alan Anderson, who seemed to have a grasp of the dialogue with Krishnamurti. A gift.
My favorite series of dialogues are still those with Krishnamurti and Dr Alan Anderson. Right before my very eyes, I could see Anderson being transformed by those dialogues. Fortunately I had a dear friend who owned that series and we had many dialogues, too. Those were the beginning of awakening intelligence for which so much gratitude is still felt even after 30 years. So glad to see that K was included in Infinite Potential, the new film about David Bohm.
A gift we all have, waiting to be realized...
Yes , also another Jesuit priest. I felt all of them in various ways were on same footing.
But David Bohm is the one who unearthed.the treasure from K.
He knew how to listen.
These 15 conversations contain such profound inquiry. Our survival depends on these kinds of dialogues… we must keep questioning
Dr. Bohm is like an ambassador for us normal human beings trying to capture what K is saying and bringing it down to earth.
Dr David Bohm is not a regular human being. He was a scientist as Einstein, same level
Exactly!
haha, yes...
He has such a gentleness about him
David was a lovely lovely man. I was on admin staff at Brockwood Park and often met David. I respected him immensely, but couldn't get over the feeling that he only had a body to carry his brain from place to place. 😅
@denisesullivan9079 this even transpires in the Videos watching his gesturing. I read that he struggled with depression in part and I see a link there. He fully followed K, questioned and clarified, but maybe he hesitated to let his full being 'realising'. A barrier to sensual perception may have been unsurmountable. Not just talking about him, but the phenomenon as such.
Having the passion to go deep, yet something staying reserved, shying away.
1. Knowledge is memories, prejudices, opinions, judgments. Hence knowledge is 'me'
2. Wall of knowledge can be broken through love, perception and insight
3. Use knowledge only when required. Then you have freedom
4. Listening with complete attention will help.
5. No movement of thought, no pyschological time and hence complete emptiness
I have seen and benefited from many of K's videos. This one is specifically precious to me . Because I see for the first time K communicating in such an open way with someone. It is mainly thanks to the quality of David Boum's apptitude of listening.Thank you so much for maintaing this treasure ! 🙏
Does anyone else find the moments of silence deeper then the words at times? I'm so blessed I found you J, late in life but never too late! The videos where he is talking outside with all the birds singing during the silences are so beautiful and I can not describe how they make me feel. Thank you JK
It showing your quiet inner self behind thought...to be drawn to the silent path is to begin walking it
So beautiful 🙏
Listening to this conversation is a rare privilege. Thank you.
True
I struggle to attain the meditative state often. At those times I play the conversation of these 2 men on the headphone. Meditation just happens just by the frequency and modulation of their voices.
If I may... Knowledge is a recording of what thought has done so far down the aeons. Thought then acts on that knowledge thinking it is separate from it. It is like a dog chasing it's own tail and failing to realise it's part of it. So when I hear K speak... He is thought (K) trying to tell thought (me) to stop chasing its own tail. It's crazy stuff but that's what the observer is the observed really means.
This is not a conversation ,its a beautiful music from the implicate order
Listening to him completely already starts breaking the wall.key is listening not just hearing
Trust me you think so, it’s far from there, may be you’re in good mood right now.
I finally see what a great man David Bohm was, in how he connected with K. These talks are a true gift to humanity.
We are unable to see the fact that the seer is the past, memories and prejudices from which we fantasize a future which is nothing but a reevaluation of the past. That entire activity consumes energy. Present moment doesn’t need anything from that, is empty and whole at once and never dissipate energy. Present moment is the source of everything but can’t be analyzed and presented as anything. Just living from moment to moment with awareness can give insight. In order to understand that we have to listen carefully to each moment even when nothing apparently happens. That attention is intelligence and gives meaning to life.
Great Conversation to listen. I have a point , Freedom from the knowledge lies in the explanations. In otherwords, the struggle of understanding the knowledge ends with explanations. Once explained, anything is refered as knowledge as the compulsion of finding quick answers tend to fit them in the contexts without explaining till a problem arises. One has to be out of any compulsion to be in the blissful state that is being for the explanations but awaiting explanations. Self explains innately anything in the void of compulsions. Self struggles with knowledge till the void of compulstions.
Wow, what a gift of conversation. Thanks from the bottom of my heart Krishnamurti and Bohm.
I'm so happy so see sooo many people like this and are aware 🙏
Thank you so much for this great video.
so one must act from freedom and use knowledge rather than act from knowledge and call it freedom
..wait a minute...to act on that imperative, which is knowledge, would negate the freedom... wouldn't it ?
Very interesting take ..
Very well said
K. is asking David Bohm, if he can enter that space of freedom or pure attention, to have communication with him, at this dialogue K asked him directly. But many times he has asked him and others to enter that space indirectly, and unfortunately they were not able to break that wall of knowledge; K always was careful not to be personal with Bohm or with others. Speaking from that space of freedom was K's challenge to his listeners, but unfortunately not many people did; as far as K. was concerned or witnessed no one did.
True..
Well said thanks!
Every time I listen to David Bohm, I learn something new...
Indeed
Of course if he was not we would doomed
Ghe meraviglia ascoltare due AMABILI esseri umani in un dialogo tanto utile e prezioso a chi Sa ASCOLTARE ..NON MI STANCO MAI DI ASCOLTARLI E PARTECIPARE AL LORO DIALOGO ....GRAZIEEEEEEEEEEE DI CUORE ❤❤❤
Self understanding is deeply indicated.
Silence is wisdom itself. If misery loves company then happiness loves solitude.
K really sharing what he's struggling with here, great talk
''when the mind turns inwards towards its source of light - 'objective knowledge' (i.e. the unqualified 'objective inference') ceases and the Self (verb') shines forth as 'the heart'' - Ramana Maharshi
Of course of course... That's why I come here... I am burning for that... ❤️
"From the emptiness, there is communication. In this way, one can still use the word, which is knowledge, but in complete freedom. That is to say, real, free communication - which is love, intelligence - occurs when one speaks about the irrelevance of psychological knowledge."
Since psychological knowledge is nothing more than the self, true communication, which is capable of ending the psychological suffering of humanity, occurs when the self does not speak, but is spoken about, is relativized. In other words, love appears when we can "laugh" at ourselves, at our own image or self.
Krishnamurti is right: in the end, it is easier than it seems :-).
💐❤️ Listening is the challenge of this 3D world.
Very well put
Very well put
Agreed.
Ojalá pueda algún día conseguir que mi cerebro tenga esa compasión y amor que habla tanto krisnamurti. Mientras tanto estaré muy atento.pero se hace muy duro.
We are fragmented (the memory, thougts), we hear (nearly) only with fragments that what suits us. But with the right word or the right picture - The insight is there!
My observations
1. We would be able to overcome the grip of knowledge and break down this strong wall...when we realise that it’s not important to overcome the grip of knowledge and break down this strong wall.
2. Knowledge is like a lactating breast, the more you nurse from it, the more it provides of itself for you...to nurse from.
they are discussing that we don't break down the wall of knowledge but listen so purely, so intently, that we are open - free - unbounded... from the entire system. This has made me feel it's time to go off-line.
Solid conversation. I learned something today.
Now unlearn it. Dig in yourself, watch yourself as you are. Thanks
Intensely listening... thank you
David Bohm had a few opportunites to really question J. Krishnamurti and he did not do it. For example, why does K talk about the 'ordinary man' and not 'me'? Bohm does not ask him, though Krishnamurti does this constantly, 'imagines himself' as the 'serious ordinary man'. Why this type of displacement/role play? Bohm never asks. Why does Krishnamurti say, at 47:59 'when somebody who is beyond the wall, who has gone beyond"? And why, at that point, does Bohm NOT say: "Sir, are you asserting, or implying, that you yourself have gone beyond the wall"? There are many other times in the dialogue when Krishnamurti makes the same implication, but Bohm never challenges him. That reluctance of Bohm to ask very obvious questions, in my opinion, is the reality of the dialogue, which is more important than the content of their discussion.
Bohm and K have shared a very lot of conversations together and to me it's obvious that Boehm realises that K is speaking from deep insight and therefore In this talk after many other talks in the past here is not concerned about K's status of "enlightenment" but to really describe the problem as best as words can do so an insight in the viewer could happen. If you're looking for people questioning Ks status of deep insight you can watch some other videos of Dr. Shainberg. But the peak of Ks dialogue are the ones with Alan Anderson and Dr Boehm
How do you mean: in the last line ?
K has mentioned in this series a few times that he has gone beyond the wall that’s why he says there’s more than just space and emptiness
16:18 how to end psychological knowledge
31:38 pure observation
I’m blown away that people give a thumbs down to this.... surely they must be extremely defensive people living in fear and constant competition and comparison. I just don’t get it... why even waste their energy unless they are purposefully trying to feel better about themselves for whatever reason.
K. was announced as the greatest thinker of 20th century. This conversation has a good topic, but two unprepared, lost talks about things they do not understand and no solution is given. There is solution.
Btw. See the 1981 conversation with three scientists. Part one: sad, pathetic. Really shameful.
The word Ved means knowledge the word anta means end hence Vedanta... The end of knowledge. The word Sunyata means emptiness, silence. The word Davanda means conflict or duality. If knowledge doesn't end we will live in conflict. The basis for conflict and contradiction is this knowledge. Mathematics means not to have the contradiction. The mathematical order comes into being when there is no more conflict and contradiction. These are all Sanskrit words. To us here in the West knowledge is the supreme. The philosophy of Vedanta teaches you that a time must come when knowledge must end if you want to enter Sunyata, silence, and emptiness. This silence and space have nothing to do with the body and the brain. A very few end knowledge and talk from freedom.
Vedanta doesn't mean end of Knowledge.. it means the last portion of Vedas, Upanishads..
How do you come to silence? Knowledge must end. Ved means knowledge and anta means the end.
@@hse13166 it indeed means the "end of knowledge".
If I may...
Knowledge is a recording of what thought has done so far down the aeons. Thought then acts on that knowledge thinking it is separate from it. It is like a dog chasing it's own tail and failing to realise it's part of it.
So when I hear K speak... He is thought (K) trying to tell thought (me) to stop chasing its own tail. It's crazy stuff but that's what the observer is the observed really means.
grandiosidade de palestra...
a porta foi aberta,grato...
29:00 - "I think it's simple..."
34:22 - "It's enormously difficult to be free of knowledge"
It's simple for them in context of who they are aware
It's difficult for them who are not aware
When you point out some thing please try to understand in what context k is saying..
It’s simple to listen not simple to discard accumulated knowledge
You know it's same in physical scientific theories also. They say later theories are simple & elegant compared to former ones.
But if one goes in details of it , later theories are actually more complicated than former ones.
Example could be theory of gravity (Newton vs Einstein).
Here he is saying that we have detected the problem which is psychological knowledge is interfering with perception.
So solution is OBVIOUS and SIMPLE that is to Have quality of attention which can prevent IT.
But to bring about such attention is DIFFICULT.
Therefore i think there is no contradiction.
1600. I love it. So true!
Well the answer is: hook your mind into an external objective machine that controls your thoughts. It may not be possible today, but it will become one day, so that way you will be "free" under the control of pure reason that is objective.
"Is pure observation love? I think it is. "
yes it is but most people don't understand love
Love and freedom go hand and hand :)
It is.
As an aside: How do we free ourselves from all this destructive knowledge? - An artist working away repeatedly comes to a point when he has to and does indeed let go of it and does something that goes against anything he thought he wanted to achieve BUT only through that does his work achieve any significance (if it ever does) and "works out". There are only moments of this but least... As a result the artist tends do be even more surprised by what he did then anyone looking at the finished work.
Great Q! If we can find the answer, we too would be talking with this world. I am not being facetious but that acc to me IS the biggest challenge in these teachings. How to quiet our minds and observe fully? That is the Q.
Need to be true 'Seekers' who are serious about the quest. A mix of honesty, fearlessness, compassion, and reflection is a start ... IMHO.
Ami personalmente me parece que estas charlas son ,una maravilla y que el doctor bohm.le saca todo jugo a krisnamurti, ojalá los hubiera tenido en estos tiempos para disfrutarlos.
it feels cute when K asked "when do we meet again ?"
David is still talking. K is saying ..listen diligently...mind will go blank..no thinking...no knowledge...wall is broken but David is still talking.
Perhaps he aims to bring it to us
0:47 - What keeps the mind from true comprehension?
25:36 - Ability to listen
33:09 - Realization and knowledge *
I feel the answer to the last question would be 'no, it isn't' ... But I also feel I don't understand the question. But if I get it, I would say that nothing can take root into that 'emptiness', which in a sense would be the 'now'. And that the source of all psychological movement really is 'thought'.
Bingo!
It's hard for me to find the next video continued from this one. Can you please send it to me? Thank you
Here's the next video: ruclips.net/video/Ivs6o7M45Es/видео.html And the whole series: ruclips.net/p/PL1n30s-LKus4MyNuceRoFAes5teZS_guW
People hear but do not listen 😊❤️👏
"The capacity to Listen is far more important than any of .... " ...
I am so sorry that he had to live that kind of life. What has he got, as a person? Round and round ... but that's ok; as he says, "As a person, I don't exist."
"..he had to live that kind of life" - what kind and why sorry ?
@@sadhwani83 Sorry, I've just found your reply. However, would you like to have the kind of life as K had? Why?
a porta foi aberta a humanidade...
In this video...JK has been trying to get Bohm to a point where he would remain and see the "Whole"of it. But being a scientist, he wouldn't fully commit. That itself is the problem of the mankind.
But I agree, if there was a mind who had a hefty grasp of Jks teaching...that would be David Bohm!
You only have to ask religious folk (no hate here) if their god came down and said you have it all wrong, you should live without boundaries, stop your dogmatic ways, traditions, throw away a few books, perhaps, would you denounce your religion and start to live differently?
🙏💥💚
'i am' that wall.that wall is blocking me to listen.
💕💕🙏💕💕
I think I've heard Krishnamurti say that all religious approach are nonsense? I'm not a religious person myself, but some of the practice like Buddhist monks do is i guess to clear and calm the mind so its ready to se the illusion and go beyond?
Your first statement about K is correct. If you continue listening to his talks you will understand that monks of any kind including the Buddhists are fooling themselves. Calming the mind through any method or technique will keep the mind's momentum going and create an illusion where the mind tells itself that it has been tamed.
Is being free of psychological knowledge freedom from knowledge of personhood/personality, from the I, the me?
🙏🙏🙏
By the way guys I know most of you understand this stuff I just thought I would help those who don’t and my ego might slip through every now and then and I hope you’ll forgive me for that thanks
🎉😊
Mas que interesante, es increíble como si verdaderamente tu cerebro esta prestando atención a esto, es como un iman que produce energía, simplemente increíble.
Rdr 0
15:30 who would listen
28:15 nothing can be done
43:10 identification
"why don't we see it" - cuz we are sick
be free - don't identify with anything. Listen to them talking again and the best interview with Bohm
What do you think of Ludwig Wittgenstein?
So, what does the understanding of the observed and the observed movement means?
Could it be that if we are able to become the observer (mind) by generating a mutation in our brains that actually make us PERCEIVE ourself (observed) like out of our actual bodies. In a place where there is not thing such as time or mater in movement.
Could that place be the MIND itself? or the beginning of meditation?
No because we can be the observer of our mind while it produces thought and the thought is a thing. Thought then produces emotion. We can then be aware of our emotion. We can choose to change our mind or our emotion or to merely recognise our emotion in the moment. So we are not our mind or our emotion or our body for that matter. We are the loving space in which all those things are contained.
@@JW-rw8fq so beautifully said!
@16:40 that’s my story folks.
Strange now how most quantum biology physics are jumping on board like they just found out about it the very same physics that denied and destroyed him
But knowledge is what makes everything possible. Internet is the creation of knowledge. Why do JK think knowledge is insignificant?
He is talking about psychological knowledge, the internet is based on technological knowledge.
Somebody, give K some water
Grazie ❤❤❤
What is psychological knowledge?
It's what makes you into what you are
50:21
So Knowledge that these men are dead and this is a recording is knowledge we want to allow to dissolve okay.
RIP
Poor man ...
32:45 persepsi murni
persepsi, welas asih, kecerdasan bukan terpisah....itu satu
33:55 bagaimana cara mendapatkanya kembali? itu pengetahuan dtng lagi
45:55 me me me....selalu sama
47:45 cara?
Did he ever have talks with Alan Watts ?
Yes, ofcourse. I saw in a video where K said Alan Watts pushed him to write a book along with Mary Lutuens. Also in some Alan Watts videos i heard him quoting K.
🇺🇳36:41
🙏🏻