Alan Wake 2 | Khaos & Time in the Dark Place
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Hello Everyone!
Alan Wake 2 has come and we have a load more to discuss. For the last thirteen years I have questioned if stories told can affect the past. I didn't realize until playing Alan Wake 2 that this detail would be the catalyst to explain so much of the Remedy Connected Universe.
In this video we answer this question and discuss the details of the Dark Place, Time, and how Dreams are the link. How through dreams, one becomes a Worm through Time.
Alan Wake 2 | Khaos, Time, & Dreams in the Dark Place
Please feel free to have free discussion in the comments section below.
Enjoy!
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I swear, Dean looks at every video idea he has, and always asks "but which one will let me talk about The Neverending Story?"
Lmao it is so true! I was telling Yellowbat I want to do Neverending Story in The Book Club only so I can do a two hour analysis of the full book.
It's such a damn good book.
@@GamingUniversityUoGDude fucking please that would be so awesome
I'm so glad that I subscribed to your channel! High quality analysis from channels like yours is a necessity so that extremely mind bending works of art can be appreciated by the masses. Keep up the good work!
Thank you so much! I've always felt the analysis of a story helps me to fully digest a narrative and appreciate it on another level.
Finally broke down and used the Epic store just for this game. It was so good, and I'm excited to watch your videos about it!
this ties up nicely to my theories I had thanks to all your previous videos :) I unfortunately missed the Final Draft discussion stream, I really wanted to throw a super chat and post this comment containing my timeline of events to discuss with you guys, I might as well post it now. Obviosly spoilers ahead
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Ok first off, I don't think Zane is a poet at all and there's a lot of evidence to support it. I think the Zane we meet in Alan Wake 1 is his diver character from the Tom the Poet movie. At one point the diver himself says "but I'm not the author...!" when asked by Alan why can't he tell him what he wants to know, if he is in fact Zane. He's also voiced by James McCaffrey (rest in peace), who was credited by Sam Lake himself as Zane the Diver in his instagram post about the tragic loss of his friend. Why the distiction? You only need to look at the Tom the Poet movie to find the answer. The cast resembles that of the plot of Alan Wake 1, and the poster says based on an Alan Wake novel... I think that novel is Departure. I think Tom the Poet is the companion piece of Departure just as Yoton Yo is the companion piece of Return. To add to this, there's also the 2012 blog "this house of dreams", released on the internet in tandem with the release of American Nightmare. In it, a lady called Samantha Wells (she is also mentioned in some Control documents) starts a blog about her renovation plans for an old house she purchased in Ordinary. She starts posting pictures of items she found in the house, inside a shoebox. The shoebox contains poems by Thomas Zane. Remember how in Control, Jesse always mistook Thomas Zane for a poet instead of a film maker? Well that's not because she's influenced by the story, as I originally thought, but simply because she found the poems in the shoebox back in her childhood home of Ordinary. The blog pretty much implies Samatha Wells purchased Jesse's house. I think the poems inside the shoebox are scripts Zane wrote AS his character from the Tom the Poet movie. In one of the pages posted on the blog, there's an handwritten note by Zane, saying: "remember! A diver!" while in another page, there's a poem which is VERY similar to the lyrics of Alan Wake II's Dark Twisted and Cruel song. This leads to another theory I have about Scratch, but I'll talk about it later on. Having said all that, I speculate Zane used his movie back in 1970 as a way to "vow them both to silence, deep beneath the lake" as the lyrics of The Poet and Muse song from Alan Wake 1 say. He used the movie to trap himself in the Dark Place with Barbara Jagger, just like Alice Wake used her The Dark Place photo exhibition to enter the Dark Place and rescue Alan. If we buy into the film maker Zane angle, his other movie we see in the game, Yoton Yo, gets VERY interesting. A manuscript page in Alan Wake 2 implies at some point the Koskela Bothers feel as if influenced by something, that is turning them into the characters of urban legend, the Hotari Well killers from Watery's dark past. I think Zane put them in the movie as these characters, and I also think the Koskela brothers are responsible for the urban legends about the cult spread decades before as you guys said in your stream, as that becomes possible with the powers of the Dark Place. For instance, Saga used the Dark Ocean Summoning song to bring back Alan, but he popped out days before the performance itself. I think that is how Casey and the Koskelas are featured in the movie. It being the companion piece of Return also explains why it foreshadows the ending with the "it's not a loop, it's a spiral" line. But why is that you might ask, if supposedly Scratch wrote Return instead of Alan? Well yes it might be true that Scratch and Zane collaborated at some point (as evidenced by the scene in the hotel with them dancing and drinking to The Happy Song by Poets of the Fall, which is basically Scratch's theme song from American Nightmare). Speaking of, let's get back to the blog poems and one of them being similar to Dark Twisted and Cruel in Alan Wake II. I think Scratch is somehow Zane's creation, or at least he's responsible for the Dark Presence manifesting itself that way. The way the Diver nonchalantly says to Alan "oh yeah don't mind him, he's Mr. Scratch. Your friends will meet him when you're gone" in Alan Wake 1 always sounded very fishy to me, and the blog poem seems to prove me kinda right. I think Scratch is the result of Zane fucking up his first writing attemps, similar to Barbara coming back "wrong". Since Alan and Zane look identical it's not a stretch to assume Scratch could get into Alan later on and assume the role he had in American Nightmare. I think his defeat in American Nightmare really happened, it was just a different manifestation of Scratch manifested for different reasons, and I think Alice and Alan reuniting in the documentary ecc could have easily happened in 2012 even in Alice only entered the Dark Place years later, as I previously implied. Back to Casey, why is he in the Yoton Yo movie? Well if you really think about it, that movie gives Alan the plot elements he needs to make the ending work, even if Zane had a somewhat malicious intent while collaborating with Scratch. And yes Scratch may have wrote Return's first draft, but in the manuscript pages we see both Scratch's original pages edited with a pen by Alan, and original Alan pages edited with a pen by Scratch, so who knows? Last thing I want to mention, the encounters between Zane and Darling in the Dark Place in the Final Draft might have some CRAZY meta implications, like you know, them collaborating (Alan's voice actor and Alan's motion capture actor) to create Alan. The body of Zane, the mind of Darling fused together. That's just insane to think about 😛
Now I would like to hear your two cents 🙂
First off, amazing video as always!
4:55 - end: Is that A Plague Tale music I hear? I'd love to see you make some videos on that series of games.
Editor here. yes it is I love the Plague Tale games and more than a few times themes from Requiem have been used in videos :)
I havent played them but it seems as though Yellowbat has. New stream sometime?
Whoa, I don't know where you learned about this lion but like low-key maybe. It could be right
Thank you for your new masterwork, Dean!
I personally have some doubts that the author can really change the past, because this is the good old grandfather paradox.
We can go back in time by playing Alan Wake and find out that Odin lost his eye in 1976 and the Finnish filmmaker doesn't exist. We wouldn't have learned this information in the first place if Return had indeed changed the past in the future. The novels will conflict.
The quantum answer to the grandfather paradox is the idea that the events of the past exist in superposition, so you really cannot change the past of your reality, but pave a new branch instead. And each manuscript, each draft, may essentially be a kind of separate world within which loops occur, because they were established by the narrative.
If we take Deaprture, for example, Zane's story is the main events' setup, so the plot twist with the Clicker refers to pre-established lore within Alan's story.
Which is why memory alteration was such a big deal in this story. Rather than the past changing the people 'remembered' a false reality. Little loophole.
Good work as always Dean! The Dark Place is quite fertile ground. But I wonder why it has to be malevolent? Why not just unconventional?
I don't think it is malevolent. It has no form at all on its own, but it's humans that shape it, and humans always contain an element of malevolence.
Same. I would argue the Dark Place is not malevolent in and of itself. It is the human mind which pollutes it. This is what I think Alice means by ascension. Once the mind is disciplined and the scars are dealt with, one can navigate it without fear. Mr. Door being a good example from what I'm guessing.
I love your content, not only do I think your analogys and explanations are so on point but you always notice little things that I mightve looked over. On hidden machines video where the three of you were talking about the final draft the zane possibly trying to overtake alan to get out of the dark place was something I didn't put together. Man is there any way I can get you on my interview/ podcast series and talk about alan wake?
Always thoughtful work coming from this channel. Nicely edited also! Thanks for your care and effort.
My absolute pleasure. I'm glad you enjoy these.
I don't know if anybody else is talking about this, but I have the theory that Waylon Door is Saga Anderson's father. It's a loose theory, but it would explain a few things.
I wonder how this will play into a possible Quantum Break sequel if Remedy ever gets those rights instead of the cheeky references they were able to slip in. As in that world the threat of the End of Time is considered fixed because events cannot actually be changed, they have and always will happen based on that universe rules
I fully believe that the End of time in QB is a fixed event and the game did nothing to prevent that. Thet prevented it from happening earlier than anticipated. But disnt stop the original event.
@@GamingUniversityUoG Hypothetical: how do you think Remedy would handle it if they actually did get Quantum Break rights? Obviously Alan Wake was 'cannon' in Quantum Break. At the time one would assume they were indeed in the same universe. If they were to regain the IP do you think they'd treat it as a separate dimension/universe/threshold/whatever? Or do you think they could somehow work it into the ingame events of AW and Control?
Gaming university can you help me please? How do you get this is the moment trophy? I dodged attacks and still can’t get it. Do you any idea why? It’s the only one I need to get
Always on point with your videos! You always have almost the same ideas and same theories as I do, and has been cool to interact with you via comments since Control.
I thought DarkViperAU's recent video had familiar editing even though it was different to what it normally is and having this video immediately recommended to me afterwards now I know why
damn haha
Yellowbat your editing is famous now!
The tree in the train tunnel is a reference to first theorised form of the oldest house I believe!
Oh 100%
Hi ,Are you still going to make that psychonauts video? , i really can't wait for fatherland foolies! But maybe following the game order would be better for consistency
P.S. have you considered analyzing alice :madness return or The town of light?
Yes I'm currently working on a side episode for Psychonauts before moving to the cassie / bob sections.
And I LOVE american McGee. Mentioned it once before in some video. Forgot which.
Amazing Analysis and also a great Book taste 😊
@Gaming University
You need a Discord, Dean. I swear, I'm on my second NG+ and there's so much content that Sam UNDERPLAYED - that's actually critical to the big picture - it's frankly staggering. Cynthia Weaver alone has HUGE reveals that are soft-sold and easy to glance over.
It's almost like Sam is daring us to pay more attention to what - in traditional video games - would be dismissable flavor. And, frankly, I blame you. You're making multiple 30 minute videos on the opening dream tutorial of Alan Wake I, for old god's sake. If this stuff isn't for fans like you, then - by old gods - I don't know who it's for.
Haha well we do have a discord. You can check the subject of any video. I have the links there. We lucked out and had 13 years to dissect the first game and 4 years on my end making videos. Just getting started on AW2
@@GamingUniversityUoG
Well, forgive me. I swear I've searched discord before for Gaming University and came up empty. I'll be checking the video descriptions more carefully from now on, no doubt. 😄
Thanks for all the great content. Can't wait to see what the next lecture is on!
Hey! Have you ever considered making a video about Väinämöinen and his possible portayal in Alan Wake?
A Finnish demi-god who tells stories through magical poetry and is described as the "eternal bard', who exerts order over chaos".
We know stories used to be told through oral tradition before being written down.
The Kalevala seems to have a lot of parallels with the deep Remedy Universe.
I'm actually reading the Kalevela as we speak so the answer is yes!
@@GamingUniversityUoG Hell yes! I've been trying to come up with a theory relating the two for a while now. It seems wild that more people are not talking about one of the most important and influential works on Finnish culture relating to Remedy's games. Many loose connections in my head but it is seems like Alan Wake/Thomas Zane are a Väinämöinen figure.
The theories surround the etymology of the word "Sampo" is such an interesting concept as it could represent a World pillar or World Tree much like the Oldest House. It being a kind of Vault of Plenty type device also supports this.
There is so much there!
I am so happy you are working on this :)
I can't wait!
Great video as always. One thing I'd love to hear your thoughts on: What do you think of Alan's line in the Final Draft ending where he says that the Dark Presence was "born from the remains" when Saga shot him with the bullet of light? Because this implies that Alan essentially created a massive time paradox (albeit one where no actual time travel is involved)--the influence of the Dark Presence stretches back an unknown length of time, at least to Thomas Zane, through the Anderson brothers, and beyond, to Alan's own life and story. So did Alan retroactively "cause" everything that happened before concerning the Dark Presence, including Alan's own battle with it in both games, because his own final confrontation with Scratch both created and destroyed the Dark Presence at the same time? The implications are mind-blowing.
I have a video that deals with this coming out sometime this month.
@@GamingUniversityUoG Awesome! I’m looking forward to it.
In the last few weeks I happened to watch a lot of "Who's Lila?" content.
So, I have to ask you...
1) Do you think our own Plane of Reality exists, in some way, in the Remedy-verse?
2) Do we, as players, alter and shape the Chaos of the Dark Place by watching it and experiencing it through Alan?
I am sorry for the weird questions!
I will answer the second question. I fully believe that Remedy has a meta thing where the people who play their games influence it. Dylan Faden having a dream of us playing the game and the camera in the corner of the room outright reference us. But also the fact that their audience is what allows their stories to be written. Our theories possibly looked at when writing.
Not in a meta physical way but a literary way yeah I'd say we play a role in the events.
@@GamingUniversityUoG Thank you for replying!
I watched a theory video recently (I mentioned it under the community post about the duck/d*ck Altered Video Event ) about how the Final Draft ending, in a certain sense, needed the positive response of the audience to prove that the ending of Return was not "cheap" and deserved to work.
I guess that's close to what you said!
What are your thoughts on the Barry email about Chester in Alan apartment?
My thoughts are we will likely see Barry in Control 2
It's worth mentioning too that Mr. Door describes the Dark Place as having 'many faces, and many names', that it is 'a mirror reflecting all possible realities'. The 'Family of Doors' has the ability to 'shift through these realities. Here, and elsewhere'
It sounds to me like he's describing the End of Time just as much as he's describing the Dark Place. 🤔
4:08 dean your gucci! Cuz you're definitely right, if you remember back in Quantum break there's actually another character that brought up being an older character of time.
It is chaos, a swirling realm of potential where reality is based on observation, where effect can proceed cause, where your world shifts as you do... As long as you are the focal point the vortex spins around. Darling is caught up in Alan's reality... The reality that was caused by Alan.
4:50 So, that's why we can access to the collective unconscious and we share the same Archetypes. One history was told at the beginning/end of time and are all drinking from it. Harry Potter's cauldron / memory poll? That's why it's a spiral not a loop? Stories affecting each other and changing after the previous event happened. It's not like 12 Monkeys where you are trap eating your snake tail, it's growing an changing like an financial interest compounding
u are doing a great job spotting jungian psychology about chaos and the collective unconscious in all remedy games,i would like to dig deeper into that myself since im doing some academic research about it.
also, the plague tale song in the background was a neat touch, xd.
its wild to me that your vids have not shown up in my feed. I only remembered you because a hidden machine vid popped up randomly
Khaos? Didn't you mean Ronnie? You know, Ronnie Soak
I had to look this up. Honestly I've never read that author before.
@@GamingUniversityUoG for real?? Well, prepare to laugh your soul out -if- when you introduce yourself to the Discworld series. Sir Pratchett was a genius. I'd recommend either _Hogfather,_ _Maskerade_ or _Thief of Time,_ for instance.
Oooh Dean vid? Yes please!
Haha you're welcome!
@@GamingUniversityUoG Appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to make such insightful, and quality vids!
last time I was this early, I ran into myself on a previous spiral
I hope you posted for a spiderman meme when you bumped into yourself
The only opportunity they missed is scratch. It could be much better with much more screentime, not to mention the build-up tho.
I'm still missing OG Scrarch from American Nightmare. That version was so much more fun.
@@GamingUniversityUoG actually I like the new Twin Peaks Season 3 inspired Scratch he is so badass, maybe without demonic voice it could be better
I know this has little to do with this video but I think this may be a good place to leave this as there are so many remedy theorists here. I was watching someone go through the first game again even though I have played so many times it a scene got me thinking. In Alan wake 1 you show up at the dam and Cynthia asks you prove you are a friend, even though now we know you look just like her beloved Tom Zane she even is walking with you later and mentions how handsome he was and never once mentions you look like him you are handsome like him, nothing like that. I think leads to the fact that this Zane is just a facsimile that Alan created and that’s why you look alike.
I posted a comment to Dean that kinda ties into this idea, there' s a Zane poem found in the This house of dreams blog from 2012 released along with American Nightmare that is stickingly similar to the lyrics of Dark Twisted and Cruel in Alan Wake II. I think Scratch is somehow Zane's creation, or at least he's responsible for the Dark Presence manifesting itself that way. The way the Diver nonchalantly says to Alan "oh yeah don't mind him, he's Mr. Scratch. Your friends will meet him when you're gone" in Alan Wake 1 always sounded very fishy to me, and the blog poem seems to prove me kinda right. I think Scratch is the result of Zane fucking up his first writing attemps, similar to Barbara coming back "wrong". Since Alan and Zane look identical it's not a stretch to assume Scratch could get into Alan later on and assume the role he had in American Nightmare. I think his defeat in American Nightmare really happened, it was just a different manifestation of Scratch manifested for different reasons, and I think Alice and Alan reuniting in the documentary ecc could have easily happened in 2012 even in Alice only entered the Dark Place years later, thanks to its powers. Maybe Cynthia knew about Scratch too? :o also, spoilers if you haven't beaten the final draft:
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Darling and Zane together in Darling's messages in ng+ could have CRAZY meta implications, think about it, Alan's voice actor and Alan's motion capture actor working together to write.... Alan Wake. Remedy is just on another level guys lmfao
Yeah I am highly suspicious of 'Zane' since he began appearing as Alan. It comes out of left field and contradicts previous canon. Which leads me to believe it was a change and not how it originally was.
7:35 Wes Craven's New Nightmare
Stay tuned on that note. Nightmare 7 may show up in a future video. If you saw my discussion on Hidden Machine's Podcast you may know.
@@GamingUniversityUoG Yes. I listed to it yesterday.
Why Chaos with a K though?
It comes from the greek word that is spelled with a K
Because I'm a nut for Greek Mythology and classically it is spelled with a K.
On a side note my HS chemistry teacher had us spell it as Khemistry for a similar reason lol.
Love your vids ✌️ can’t wait for the dlc
Thanks a bunch!
After listening to so many hours of your livestreams it was a shock to hear your video-content-tone again 😂
Haha back to the old grind. Yeah a lot of people had a similar reaction when I first did the live streams and they heard my normal speaking voice
Good job on this video Dean!
Thank you buddy!