Leaving the Lutheran Church: Post-Conversion Reflections
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- Опубликовано: 13 фев 2020
- In this video, I describe my sojourning away from a liberal Lutheran Church (ELCA), some of my reflections of my time while there, and my appreciate of Reformed theology as over against the heritage of the German Monk and Reformer.
I just started going to a LCMS church and I was amazed by how I had never heard so much Gospel in almost everything.
Amen! I also converted to Lutheranism from modern evangeliscalism.
@@Solideogloria00 me too!
Same. Grew up Southern Baptist, went to a PCA and then an ARP church. I became convinced of Lutheran Theology and am now a member of the LCMS.
yes, Luther and Calvin, Lutherans and Reformed literally started from the protestant reformation on the entire premise of faith alone and inability of man to save themselves
I'm Lutheran because I see it as the pure Gospel. I was Reformed and Presbyterian in the Puritan (Contintental Reformed afterwards) traditions for a while, and I thank God for it showing me the centrality of the Gospel. But the Sacramental truths in Scripture brought me to Lutheranism. Thank for being so irenic when it comes to different denominations. None of them are perfect (not just a throw-away line, it's really true) but some are more perfect than others. lol.
Matthew Everhard, it is very interesting hearing about your past in the Lutheran church. I too grew up in a liberal Lutheran church, though supplied with a pietistic para-church movement. I too eventually encountered reformed writings and theology. For a while I was close to becoming reformed myself. I liked the stern preaching against the flesh, and the quest for holiness. However, I found it impossible to lead the life of holiness which they envisioned. The reformed were great at preaching the law, but I found no gospel in their preaching. If they brought the gospel up at all, it was always convoluted, so that you could not be sure that it was "for me." I suppose they would rather make the elect despair than give false hope to the reprobate.
Here was the strength of the confessional Lutheran church. I found that they certainly preached law to its sternest, but they also preached gospel in its full sweetness. And with that everything changed. Worship, for example, was no longer about what I do for God, but about what he does for me. So why not allow images in the sanctuary which help portray this truth? After all, God filled the tabernacle with images of flowers and angels and clad the priests in beautiful vestments "for glory and beauty" (Exo 28:2).
Finally, I think that you have not really attempted to understand Lutheran theology. I write this because there were several errors in your portrayal. Most importantly, Lutherans do not subscribe to everything Martin Luther said or wrote, even though we do appreciate him and hold him in high regard. Lutheranism is a nickname for the churches that subscribe to the Augsburg confession, and usually several other confessional documents found in the Book of Concord.
Sakarias I attended some reformed baptist churches and my experience was like yours. Lots of focus on holiness and even some legalism. I've since become a paedobaptist and now attend a PCA church and my experience is a total 180, even though it's reformed. Lots of focus on the gospel and God's grace. I think it goes to show that each church really needs to be evaluated on its own.
Amen to all you wrote, brother. Hope Matthew go to a confessional lutheran church.
Thank you for this very informative comment. It seems to me that it is human nature to take the Faith that one grew up in for granted and never truly seek the Truth while living among what can feel like cultural and social habits, rather than true spirituality. But then as something else which "aesthetically" (i.e. emotionally) more appealing beckons, we throw ourselves into understanding the new, in a way that we never truly oblige the old.
I just read your comment here above and would like to comment on something. Having been raised Presbyterian most all my life and christened United Methodist, And I must say, that even within Presbyterian mainline denomination such as PCUSA and even The Cumberland we are a bit different than the offshoots. The mainline denominations are the PCUSA and PCA. We were always taught in our Presbyterian church that one of the founders of the reformed faith was Martin Luther as well, after all he started the reformation from the RC Church. John Knox from Scotland is the founder of the Presbyterian faith of which the Church of Scotland is the mother church. . Here is Part 1 of the Book of Confessions (PCUSA) . Presbyterians have never really been part of the holiness movement, that movement was born out of John Wesley Methodism from which the Church of the Nazarene and the Methodist faith as well as the Wesleyan Church hails from. Hope this helps which I am sending over as well. I would agree with you regarding the Lutheran Church. I do not see them as totally embracing all of Luther and his ideas not worship. Many Lutheran churches I have attended seem more connected with the Roman Catholic church out of that area of the world in German etc. Whereas Presbyterians have always had a kinship to the Church of England and Anglicans as almost siblings. As a mainline Presbyterian I would feel more akin to Anglicans than to Lutherans. Many Anglicans are reformed as well in doctrine. www.pcusa.org/site_media/media/uploads/oga/pdf/boc2016.pdf
Dear Sakarias Ingolfsson: All of Luther's understanding, of the Scriptures, is accepted by Confessional Lutherans -
LCMS/WELS/ELS/LCMC, and depending on their life changing effects on pastors and other offices in the Church,
it does hold negatively true that modern LCMS/WELS/ELS/LCMC contains many pastors and people who do not practice true Lutheran Confessions which expound, that God came in Christ to save sinners, so that a sinner can sense Christ coming to sinners and impressing upon sinners that He wants to give sinners a new life. The modern practice
of LCMS/WELS/ELS "Closed Communion," which is not the practice of God's Objective justification taught in the
Lutheran Confessions, serves as a stark example of how modern Confessional Lutheranism has failed to accept and practice the whole context of Scripture, understood and explained, in Luther's Large Catechism, about the Lord's
Supper. Luther never spoke of a "Closed Communion," for those who hear the preaching of Christ and His offering of a new life in Christ. Yet, many visitors who hear the message of Christ in LCMS/WELS/ELS, and believe that He is their only hope, are deprived and turned away, by practioners of "Closed Communion," and this is not the true practice of Lutheranism.
As a Confessional Lutheran myself, I have wondered why you would have abandoned the Lutheran Christian faith. From what you say of your early local church background, yours must be one of those liberal or lattitudinarian LCMS parishes that, due to their faulty views, seceeded at some point from the LCMS to be part of what, in a church union, formed the ELCA. Those parishes, unlike most of the LCMS, missed out on the Gospel. Real LCMS or WELS preaching INSISTS, in EVERY sermon, to present, clearly and unambiguously, Law and Gospel, never confusing or neglecting one or the other.
Definitely. My pastor (I'm at a confessional LCMS church) *always* presents the law and gospel in his preaching. I even find it in the hymns, liturgy and just normal conversation.
I’m a member of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. I’m in love with the confessions because it allows me to love God with my mind. Sorry for your poor experience with your Lutheranism. But in the end, we are all on the same team and we have a world to save.
That's false. Not the same team.
Galatians 1:8-9 KJV
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
@@Psalm-yg6yi lutherans, presbyterian, baptist, methodist, anglicans and some trinitarian pentecostal are all brothers in christ.
ELCA---Apostate.....end of story.
My mum used to be Lutheran, as my ancestry is Slovak, quite a few of us can be Lutheran but liberal Lutheran sadly. I'm Reformed with Lutheran influence, live and respect to our Lutheran brethren.
Find a law and gospel, word and sacraments, real confessional lutheran church. Yes, even inside lutheranism there are churches that don't teach confessionally lutheran.
I've observed a trend in Liberal Lutherans leaving for Conservative Reformed churches as opposed to Confessional Lutheran... I wonder why that is? I'm genuinely curious.
Thanks so much for the video Matthew. I have a very similar journey as you. I grew up in the ELCA. I had a profound conversion period n high school. I then transitioned to a generic evangelical setting for a while and was, to my great regret, "re-baptized." Then I was in the Reformed Church for a good while, which I loved very much. It was in Presbyterianism, that I first learned what grace alone meant and why infant baptism was true. However, I have recently transitioned back to Lutheranism. I will be confirmed in the Missouri Synod soon. The book that did it for me to bring me into Confessional Lutheranism was Gene Veith's book, The Spirituality of the Cross and the podcast of Dr. Jordan B. Cooper. I would also recommend reading the Augsburg Confession and the Formula of Concord, these documents were not written exclusively by Luther. The name Lutheran was given us by the Roman Catholics. God Bless you and your ministry. Soli Deo Gloria.
That's where I'm headed is LCMS
I'm about to join the Local LCMS near me I've been going for about 2 months or so now
Welcome to the LCMS, brother!
I’ve been going for 3 weeks! So far I love it! Waiting for confirmation!
Thank you for this video, Pastor Matthew. I have considered myself "Reformed" for about the past 10 years until recently discovering confessional Lutheran theology through the content of Dr. Jordan Cooper (who grew up Reformed then converted to Lutheranism). This video is one of very few resources I can find which speaks to the inverse experience or about a Reformed evaluation of Lutheran thought at all. However, I have a few notes and questions.
First, I don't think the "theology of one man" is a fair assessment of Lutheran Theology. I believe the name "Lutheran" was a diminutive, as Luther and his contemporaries called themselves "Evangelicals." The title was applied from the outside and just stuck, but I think many Confessional Lutherans would have a similar view of Luther that Calvinists have toward Calvin.
Second, I do think Lutheran sacrementology is a hurdle for Reformed or broadly-evangelical folk (as it was for myself). However, the mysteriousness of these issues I don't think need be a hurdle, and instead should point to God's sovereignty and our own finite understanding. The mystery appealed to in the Lord's Supper is likened to the mystery of the incarnation of Christ himself. Thus any rationalization of the impossibility of a physical presence of Christ in the Supper would appeal to logic that would undo the incarnation itself if applied consistently. On the other hand, Baptismal Regeneration is viewed in support to Sola Fide, such that Baptism is the means or mechanism by which faith is imparted from the Holy Spirit to the individual, so it facilitates the generation of faith instead of replacing it.
Lastly, (and this point has the primary concern I have for transitioning theological traditions), part of the reason any mystery appealed to within Lutheran thought is untenable to Reformed folk is due to the difference in the application of human reason (ie the Ministerial versus the Magisterial use of reason). For example, Lutherans object to the title "Consubstantiation" to describe the Supper because it appeals to the same Aristotelian logic that Catholics use to determine their doctrine of the Supper (transubstantian). Lutherans thereby object and refer to the "Real Presence" because allowing human reason to explain the Sacrament would be a violation of Sola Scriptura. Likewise, the Reformed denial of Christ being physically present is seen to Lutheran thought as another form of utilizing human reason over and against the Word.
In regard to Ministerial versus Magisterial use of reason, I have had incredible difficulty seeing the Reformed perspective as anything other than a Magisterial use of reason, which compromises Sola Scriptura and I think leads to other logical complications in Christian thought (which express themselves in various ways throughout American Evangelicalism). Thus, the Lutheran Ministerial use of reason appears not only more Biblically faithful, but more logically consistent and humble. So my question would be this: Do you accept the categories of Magisterial or Ministerial? And why would mystery in certain areas of doctrine be problematic? Thank you.
Oh, yes. The Pentecostals can preach hell fire, bro! God bless you. I love these type of Everhard reflections.
As a WELS Lutheran that is the son of a pastor, I just wanted to comment on the Lord's Supper. Since, the WELS takes the Bible literally, especially when God is being literal, we then must be literal in our interpretation whether it makes sense to us us with our reason or not. Belief is independent of our understanding (Proverbs 3:5). Whenever Jesus discusses the Lord's supper, He says "This is my body" (Luke 22:19, Mark 14:22). Jesus said "is". You could argue that Jesus meant "represents" but Jesus said "is". Similarly, in Mark 14:24 He said "This is my blood" and in Luke 22:20 He said "This cup that is poured out for you IS the new covenant in my blood." Does the Bible in anyway say that Jesus took a knife and scalped Himself to pass around pieces of His flesh or bleed into a cup? Jesus was being literal and has shown in one occasion to turn one substance into another (Wedding at Cana John 2:1-11). We don't have to understand it, but I would argue we have to believe it.
I'm PCA but attended a Lutheran Missouri Synod church in Council Bluffs, Iowa during the COVID-19 lockdown. They were the only church that refused to stop services due to COVID-19. I didn't take their communion but it was nice to be among believers.
Pastor Matt I enjoy your videos, I currently attend a PCA church and have been taking classes at reformed bible with the intention of furthering my education in seminary education. As I have been reading on the early church fathers and on the historical church I found myself asking even more questions about the validity of doctrines of Grace and covenant theology as a whole. This is a very new development for me. Here’s a few points of thought.
1. Icons - orthodox views them as aid to not only enhance worship but to serve as windows to heaven in their liturgy. Not the object itself but the truth or message it conveys. St. JOHN OF Damascus defended this (7th ecumenical council). Now Lutherans from what I can tell have appreciation for the arts and serve as aids and reminders of biblical truths. Like they say pictures do speak a thousand words. And all truth is Gods truth. Anyways I think we shouldnt look at this things in a negative light for the reason of creating separation from RC, not saying that’s your position.
2. Baptism - perhaps it is effectual immediately for the participant. Why couldn’t or shouldn’t it be? We are saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. Salvation is not a one time event/profession that we do but what God is has done, is doing, and will be done completely when we are called home. His grace is effectual through receiving baptism as an infant, or in faith as an adult, through His word, the church and the sacraments.
I think if we just let the text speak perhaps we can see how he does call all people to him to receive Him freely, not that all do. Salvation is all His doing through our one and only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is all done through by the various means of graces to receive Him. Of course the gospel needs to be preached of repentance, faith and Holy Living. Now salvation is a process from start to finish that we can’t merit but we participate in it because God has given us the ability to do so by the power of the Holy Spirit working in us. Like wise the ability to refuse and be further hardened like pharaoh and all the other unbelievers. There’s much more to be said but everything I’m saying is about 2 days old so I’ll just cut it short. I will also add this isn’t a matter of Arminianism vs Calvinism. Rather I believe this is the historical church position (Augustine included)
But can’t we just say some things are better just to be left a mystery because we really can’t know everything unless we come up with a new theological system to answer all the questions. Ex. Why can’t the Lords Supper be the “body and blood”. Lutherans took the orthodox view and said its a mystery. Luther told Zwingli explain the mystery of God of the incarnation Jesus being the God-Man. IDK. I appreciate your channel, you cost me some money in books haha
One other note: Josiah Trenham who was taught by (RC Sproul, Gerstner, Frame) converted from PCA to orthodox. He is interesting and wrote a book Rock and Sand, I yet to read it. I’m not convinced of orthodoxy but Jordan B Cooper (Lutheran) has my attention and has me rethinking my approach to scripture. God bless brother.
I was a Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Presbyterian (PCA) and by the grace of God I'm a Confessional Lutheran ( LC-MS).
Jesus was an observant Jewish teacher, who practiced Judaism.
I have been on the fence about my Lutheran Church lately. We have had a lot of sexual crimes at the church over the years and many of the people there seems to be very cold to people and very mean in many cases. I hear "back handed" compliments a lot there and also I worry about the validity of my particular church. I sort of feel like leaving it many times but at the same time I want to fix it as well. What to do?
Does your Church profess to believe the Bible as the infallible Word of God? Do they confront and address sin, requiring repentance? If not, you would do well to find a Lutheran Church that does those things. They are out there.
@@vickibrain8959 they vaguely do
Confessional Lutheran is the way to go.
Amen!
Wisconsin Synod or bust.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
ELCA seems like Lutheranism only by name.
Sorry, my husband was raised a Lutheran. He will never darken the door of a Lutheran church again. Marti Luther did niy truly leave the Catholic church. There are also other things we discovered . As we read Gods Word closer, we came to see Lutheranism as false
@@rockymountainhomestead6824 I'm Swedish Baptist and Lutherans in Sweden water things down. They think can interpret the bible they say things like 'oh it was Paul who said that' or 'the bible was written by man' that's as close as it get's to apostasy. Paul warned us 2 Timothy 4. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
If the ELCA preached the bible, they'd be too convicted of not doing what the bible says. ELCA is not biblical. Im in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church and it's Law and Gospel. Good stuff. Thanks for sharing your story.
The ELCA is part of the Lutheran Communion/ Lutheran World Federation that represents 90% of all worldwide Lutherans. The smaller American Synods [LCMS, etc] are somewhat outside the greater Lutheran Communion of Apostolic Succession/ weekly Mass/ ritualistic worship. These small American synods still do not have bishops
charles happold no we don’t have bishops and are not a part of the Lutheran world federation but we do have rituals historical liturgy and weekly divine service (mass).
@@ninoaaron2116 Yes, you are correct about the historic Mass celebrated in Missouri Synod parishes but the Wisconsin Synod builds beautiful churches yet some don't even celebrate a weekly Eucharist. Here are examples of the difference between the LCMS and ELCA in the funeral of pastors:
ruclips.net/video/2JQNi0BDn3U/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/0r7NdGYTU68/видео.html
@@charleshappold4637 The ELCA is ultra- liberal. The LCMS is not a small synod nor on the fringes. Nice try mate.
What IS the kingdom?
Could you do a video on dispensationalism? Peter ruckman. Etc. just curious of your thoughts
I would point out for those uninformed that the ELCA is not truly Lutheran, as Luther himself would condemn their stances on a great many things. Better examples would be the conservative wing of the LC-MS, the WELS, ELS, and ELDoNA synods.
I am a Lutheran (ELS), and I would define a Lutheran as somebody who takes "Thus saith the Lord" seriously.
Spare us your decidedly unChristian pronouncements. It is like someone from a little U.S. state declaring that they are the center of Americanism.
@@charleshappold4637 I'm sorry but your greatly mistaken. When you claim to be something but ignore everything that Lutheran means then that's only lutheran by name and not creed.
@@juggler8524 You betray any sense of godliness and Christian character. So 90% of world-wide Lutherans [LWF] are not "Lutheran". Hilarious and pathetic.
@charles
How can you say you associate with something that ignores the very foundation that it was built on. That being the scriptures and them being our infallible guide for faith. Making God fit our culture is only setting up an idol in the one true God's place. You say my words are a betrayal of godliness but ignore the source we're promised to find true godliness. This is not a game of numbers this is about our lives and the life of Christ crucified us and for our sins. The grass withers the flowers fade but the word of the Lord endures forever.
Well, if 90% of Lutherans are liberal, then it really is true that the road to hell is wide. Don't try to pull that "Oh we have big numbers" BS here. So does Rome, and most of them are headed to hell.
Your elca merger is literally 32 years old, and is the result of 3 Lutheran synods merging. The LCMS, one of the last standing beacons of true Lutheranism in America, has been around for over 170 years. Just because you have big numbers doesn't make you the true heir of Lutheranism. Don't even call yourself Lutherans.
While I may have a different theoloigical perspective than you, I appreciate your candor and enthusiasm for Christ and your videos are very informative. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing!
I was in the ELCA for 11 years. I left because of the liberal theology which has become even more extreme in the past few years. I joined a confessional LCMS conservative body which does proclaim the Gospel and is nothing like the ELCA. I was in a class while at the ELCA where the Pastor stated that Satan just represented sin, but was not real. I knew I was hearing heresy. The LCMS is pro-life, and supports traditional marriage--It has a totally separate doctrine from the ELCA. Sadly, the mainline denominations have mostly left the traditional teachings of the like the Episcopal, Presbyterian USA, Methodist churches. They are mainly secular renegades who hold to the form of a religion, without actually believing the foundational principles of the faith. Thankfully, there are 'remnants' which have remained faithful - the conservative Anglican, LCMS and Wisconsin synods, Presbyterian /American, Wesleyan. I know the Reformed churches eschew anything that reminds them of Catholicism, but I appreciate the beauty, holiness of art in the church. Our Lord is the ultimate Creator and the beauty and art are gifts from Him. I didn't grow up in a church going family. it was a Mo. Synod neighbor who took me to church with her as a child where I was exposed to the Lutheran Church. Lutherans never claimed the name 'Lutheran' for themselves and Luther is viewed as a flawed, imperfect human being who God used for a special purpose. As to Luther's rantings against the Jews, I will never comprehend that. I love Israel and pray for her salvation. The LCMS has ministry to the Jewish people which was established in 1996 by Steve Cohen-www.appleofhiseye.org to as they say 'address the challenges of sharing the gospel with the lost sheep of Israel and all others who need the Gospel.'
Good for you in joining what we considered the bastion of liberalism where I grew up allowing for divorced people to be married in their churches and playing cards in their basements, but also in other moments being so judgmental that a deceased Korean Vet (KIA) was lifted over the fence of his home congregation because the elders and pastor did not know if he had died in a state of grace while serving our country!!!!
Another great video. Thank you for sharing you faith journey
It’s so sad how many uninformed non-believers or non-denoms think the ELCA is the only representation of Lutheranism. Heresy pure and simple. When anyone says Lutheran church you really need to specify the Synod. Lutheran was a pejorative name given by Roman Catholics, Luther did not like or want it, he wanted it called Evangelical but unfortunately the name stuck. Details are important.
Lutheranism is not the theology of one man. There were many theologians responsible for crafting the augsburg confession for example. There were many theologians in the years following the initial Lutheran reformation that built upon the previous generation and there have continued to be multiple theologians down to our present day teaching Lutheran theology. Just like you said that Calvinism is a nickname for reformed theology, Lutheranism is the nickname given to what is called the conservative reformation that entails subscription to the book of Concord and all its theology. So no it's not at a theology of the one man Martin Luther any more than reformed theology is a theology of the one man John Calvin.
Just wanted to correct your misunderstanding, thanks for the video.
Wasn't Samuel Rutherford one of the Westminster guys?
MATTHEW, SO MUCH OF MY STORY IS IDENTICAL TO YOURS. Thank you for sharing!!! I permanently left the Lutheran Church in the small town in Minnesota where I grew up in 1984. This church changed from Missouri Synod to the ELCA in 1987. For my spiritual journey, leaving the Lutheran Church was the best thing I ever did. You are right Matthew! They DON'T preach a message of repentance and salvation! However, my biggest gripe with the Lutheran Church is their false belief that infant baptism is the ONLY thing necessary to save you. They take 1 Peter 3:21 and run with it to the hilt as the only proof they need to claim that baptism is some kind of "magic potion" saves a person from hell even if that person decides to deliberately and purposely live a life in sin for the rest of his/her life. I know that to be true. I USED TO BELIEVE THAT, I USED TO LIVE THAT WAY, AND I WAS LIVING IN DEEP SIN WHEN I WAS PERMANENTLY CONVERTED. The Lutheran Church takes I Peter 3:21, runs with it, and that one verse confirms their belief that infant baptism is what saves a person without ever considering the rest of the verse: "NOT as a removal of dirt (sin) from the body, as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." And yet, these Lutheran Churches falsely claim that it is baptism that cleanses an infant from sin!!! Sorry, but that IS NOT the purpose of water baptism!!! Water baptism is an act of obedience to God through Christ's redemption on the cross, and following the EXACT example (total immersion) of how Jesus Christ was baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan River. Yes, I found true salvation, but it certainly was not in the Lutheran Church. So many people in the Lutheran Church (especially the ELCA) are SO DECEIVED that baptism is what save them without ever realizing the danger their soul is in. I was "scripturally" baptized by immersion in June 1985 as it is the very same mode that Christ himself was baptized, and NOT this phony fraudulent mode of baptism by a sprinkling or pouring of water on an infant's head of which an example IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. Also, with all of those reading this, I want to share a terrific website that discloses many of the falsehoods, doctrines, and warped theology within the ELCA, and the sinful and disgusting things that this denomination has come to believe in. You truly will be shocked. It is www.exposingtheelca.com. PLEASE CHECK OUT THIS EXCELLENT WEBSITE WHEN YOU HAVE A MOMENT. When a church denomination like the ELCA changes their values to match the current culture, they are no longer following the Bible. THEY ARE FOLLOWING THE LOST. And ELCA pastor Nadia Bolz-Weber is the worst! A sick heretic who is misleading her flock and leading them astray.
Exactly why I left ELCA. I am now a Conservative Mennonite, where the gospel is preached and theWord of God is the basis for everything we do and believe.
@@ruthgoebel723 Thank you Ruth!
Umm... I'm not sure ELCA is even Christianity anymore.
I'm LCMS, infant baptism doesn't save. Baptism is only effectual if you believe , if you are already saved. They don't teach that that's all you need for salvation. They don't even teach that it's necessary for salvation .
People die without baptism. Babies, and adults who didn't get the chance.
You were taught incorrectly.
When you comment on ELCA beliefs, remember that they do not hold to the Lutheran Confessions or, more importantly, the Bible. The ELCA should not be termed as "The Lutheran Church" as it is in your comment.
Thanks for taking the time to address this important topic, though!
@@Xx.bygracethrufaith I wholeheartedly agree. Thanks for your comment.
I had a very similar experience in Lutheranism... I don’t recall a strict teaching of Hell or God’s justice against sin. But as you said, my church was filled with kind men. After my conversion (which occurred by means outside of the church) I was brought to a counselor closely associated to my church that discouraged me from the sort of teachings that the Lord used to regenerate me; namely that of Paul Washer. I’m now a 1689 Reformed Baptist.
Real Nice, God used Paul Washer to get me AWAY from the Reformed!
They don't preach about Hell because the assumption in Lutheranism is that everybody in the Church is saved by virtue of their baptism. Lutheranism is not about emotionalism or frightening people all the time.
I grew up in the ELCA. Have been attending a WELS congregation which has worked but am gravitating to PCA Presbyterian. Everything you said is spot on how I feel.
I am attending a WELS and the pastor is very conservative and Gospel orientated. I am Reformed in theology and my pastor knows. We discuss our differences in a respectful and loving way. I can honestly say I am very happy attending that WELS Church.
I am a Lutheran and belong to a very conservative Lutheran church. However, I would always tell someone that they must feel a connection with God and their faith in Him and if their current church or faith is not providing that, then change to what does. God is not taking attendance at any particular church. The Bible does not say that you need to be Lutheran to be saved!
What are your thoughts on LCMS?
Thank you for sharing. I grew up similar with the Lutheran church and left. I appreciate what you said about many things and it's helped me with a few decisions on some things. Good videos!
Find a law and gospel, word and sacraments, real confessional lutheran church. Yes, even inside lutheranism there are churches that don't teach confessionally lutheran.
Hey pastor Matt if you have a chance there is a teaching going around about everyone being saved even if they have not recieved Jesus as their Lord and Savior. My grandmother is involved in this teaching. It is bad doctrine. Her church is in Colorado called "fathers house" by Mike Miller. Its weird. He is vague when he preaches. If you look it up could you tell me what you think ? Thanks pastor:)
I grew up ELCA Lutheran, as well! :) Wonderful video.
Looks like a good set of books on your shelf. Take us on a tour of those books😇
A Baptist missionary told me that she was bitter toward the PCUSA church she grew up in for sometime after her conversion accusing it of liberalism. She said later in fuller reflection she said she honestly was never taught any "wrong theology" in that particular church. Instead she concluded that it had never taught her that she had to personally receive it. In her retirement now she attends a PCA congregation and calls herself a Methobapterian.
Fascinating, just searching into testimonies like yours, and other denominations to have foresight, with more preparation in soulwinning, sharing the gospel 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 3:16, 6:47, telling people about Jesus. I'm a Baptist Christian, and hold firm to free grace theology, when I ask people do they know if they're going to heaven when they die, the responses are all over the place. God wants us to know: 1 John 5:13. Thanks for shedding light on your heritage, culture, and how God moved on you. Let us pray for revival. God bless.
I grew up in a Pentecostal/evangelical church and still consider myself charismatic. Became a Lutheran pastor but find myself leaning toward Reformed Baptist and conservative Lutheran theology. There's no perfect church or theology but we all have pieces of the truth.
Are you still a Lutheran pastor? What about Reformed-Baptist theology (London Baptist?) draws you in to it?
Genuine question, My family is transitioning from a holiness tradition of Weslyanism, to LCMS. I am a preachers kid, granted that was mom, so I enjoyed your insights. Why Presbyterial faith.
One thing I've learned from my own experience of searching for the right church is how important it is to thoroughly research the doctrines. It's easy to be influenced by the seemingly rational arguments put forth by the popular or charismatic proponents of the individual faiths. But then when you take a deep dive into what that faith believes, you find there are things that are unacceptable. I've also learned that there is no perfect church. One must decide which things are minor differences and which things are major non negotiable differences.
That's because jesus didn't want you in a church.
Christians and church are living oxymorons.
It was the Catholics who named "Lutheranism" as it was their practice to name heresies after their leaders (Hussites, Calvinists, Lutherans, etc.)
The Lutherans do not subscribe to consubstantiation. That is another outside term given to them. Unlike "Lutheran," the Lutherans reject the doctrine of consubstantiation. The Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox use a similar approach and take literally, "This is my blood" and "This is my body." They argue that Jesus did not say "This is a symbol of my blood" so they reject the idea that the elements symbolic.. Unlike the Roman Catholics, their doctrine does not attempt to explain a transformation. They defer to "the man upstairs" on that one.
The complaint that churches don't preach the gospel is a common one. There was an article recently that found the gospel was largely missing from sermons at the largest churches in America. I hear Catholics complain that Pope Francis does not preach the gospel. I now measure a pastor much he preaches the gospel. "Prosperity gospel," "Self Help as gospel," and SJW are among the greatest heresies passed off as Christianity today.
Finally, I echo what several others here have said. If you're in the PCA now, it is no wonder that you jumped of the ELCA ship. I have to wonder what course you might have taken if you started as a confessional Lutheran. A video topic you might want to consider is why you are not a confessional Lutheran. Why you are not in the ELCA is self-explanatory when you say you are in the PCA.
Happy Father's Day all!
Attended my former ELCA church today. New young pastor. Very woke, pro-alphabet soup sexual, very anti-Martin Lutheran doctrine. Everything around the church including the vestments were rainbow and pro-unity. Saw fear in his eyes when I shook his hand. Glad I did not vote for him. Only went to show support for a young man at his confirmation. My friends that are still attending have been there all through the changes and just fail to see anything wrong. Satan has a strong foothold there. Proverbial boiling frog sheeple. Never going back.
I’d love to see a rap off between Hans Fiene and Pastor Matt 👏🏼🎤
I had the same experience growing up in the LCMS. Grew up going every week, got confirmed and everything. Wasn’t till after college that I actually heard the full gospel. I’ve met a hand full of others at church’s around me that had the same experience too.
Thx for sharing. Good stuff.
Interesting. I grew up the opposite of you in that I was raised in the liberal PCUSA (however I first heard the gospel during my confirmation classes in that church, because, well, they kind of have to lay it out for you then lol). I slowly embraced Calvinism for several years after that, until I was introduced to the Lutheran confessions. And I have to say what others have said here, the Lutheran confessions are definitely not just the works of Martin Luther. We also did not choose the name "Lutheran" for ourselves. I also agree with what others have said here in saying that you really are comparing apples and oranges when you're comparing the ELCA with conservative Reformed churches. That's why I never compare my knowledge of the liberal PCUSA with conservative Lutheran theology, conversely. I am 99% sure you would hear the gospel at any LCMS church you chose anywhere in the world. I know there are conservative churches on both sides, though. Once I learned the Lutheran confessions, I can't go back to Reformed. The Lutherans are more in line with what the church has always taught through the centuries, and I do have a tendency to think it is the best representation of the church catholic. Glad you eventually heard the gospel though!
Bethany I was raised in the United Presbyterian Church which is now PCUSA. I have not a clue what you are talking about .The PCUSA and PCA and Cumberland not sure about the other bodies are probably more of a Confessional Church than Lutheranism. So perhaps your church was offbeat in a way, but make no mistake, there are plenty of offbeat Lutheran churches. Jesus never practiced nor admonished closed communion" that is not even scriptural. On top of that, their consubstantiation doctrine in Communion is off. I would be more in tune with what a Roman Catholic believes than a Lutheran. And like many Lutherans on here that were raised in it, have a long history in their family like Matt, I would take heed. Its not really based a lot of Martin Luthers teaching. You are better off in a Presbyterian, Reformed or Anglican/ Episcopal that a Lutheran, and most certainly Missouri Synod, which is really off the path in my opinion. But I needed to correct you in your comment about Lutheran being more right on scripturally and more confessional, that is wrong! I am sure you heard Matts testimony, he comes from a long line ( history ) of Lutherans.
@@josee18 I’m aware there are crazy liberal Lutherans too. I was referring to comparing conservative Lutherans to other liberal versions of other denominations. It’s apples and oranges, say, to compare the LCMS to the PCUSA as a whole. You might have a decent congregation within that communion, but overall they are very liberal. And it would also be apples and oranges if you compared PCA to ELCA. You can’t compare liberals to conservatives. That’s all I was saying.
Anyhow, this is no longer relevant to me personally, since I became a Catholic 8 months ago. God bless!
Alleluia and Amen 🙏🏻. I tried Catholicism but I got perplexed by my inability to look past the indulgences, intercessions, purgatory, rosary and much more.
@@BibleLovingLutheran Lol I became Catholic almost a year ago, so a lot has happened since I posted this 😄
@@bethanyann1060 what happened?
We share a VERY similar story. I grew up ELCA as well, was baptized and went through confirmation, etc. Even similar stories about Pentecostal and non-denominational involvement. I've got that same green ELCA hymn book that you have on your shelf. Thanks for sharing.
Find a law and gospel, word and sacraments, real confessional lutheran church. Yes, even inside lutheranism there are churches that don't teach confessionally lutheran.
I’m a Lutheran, thanks for your views though. My experience has been positive and Gospel centered
To be fair, you didn’t leave the Lutheran church if you left the ELCA. It is neither Lutheran nor church. Had you been a member of the LCMS, WELS, or ELS, then that would be a different discussion
I grew up in the ALC with its roots in the ELC and further back the United Norwegian Lutheran Church. We had a "good" heritage of pietism and a high dosage especially with the older generation of Haugeanism. I heard the Law and the Gospel in that church and also saw elements of "Pharisaical " Christianity and lording it over those who did not have an "experience" like that which was being espoused by the "pillars" of the church. I had an experience like you speak of at one of our camps and at some level was freed by it, but never felt a self pride in it over those of my classmates who did not have that experience. It led me though in wanting to be a pastor in the ALC...and later one of the first classes graduating from an ELCA seminary. I see a LCMS "colleague" below connect with all the perhaps negatives you lift up about the ELCA and claiming they preserve the true old conservative Lutheranism that apparently would have set you straight!...in our area of the world growing up though we considered the LCMS to be the liberal ones for good and bad. But I won't get any further into what he declared. Your descriptions of our faults of course as you say are limited...and that is ok. When we signed agreements with the Reformed bodies some 25 years ago, I too had a caricature of their history, their faults, their theology, their preaching, their movement into the world. I am glad you found a place where you are...but as you say several times, you are upon us looking from outside in. So blessings in your ministry and brother, I rejoice in the gifts and the history God in Christ has led you to!!!!!
I also grew up Lutheran. I also did not hear the gospel (or like you, my heart wasn’t ready) Sadly, I did not learn the stories from the Bible either. I went to a lot of bible studies, but most often the pastor would end up talking about himself. At the time I had nothing to compare & thought he was quite interesting, BUT even during the service, we heard more about him then Christ. That ego ended up getting him in trouble. My parents were disillusioned and stopped going to church completely. I kept praying for guidance and found a Christian church where I heard the gospel & it changed my life.
I appreciate your video!
It's interesting when I hear about others leaving the Lutheran church as I myself did. There was no learning and growing environment present and the result was I drifted out. Like Pastor Everhard said here, maybe it was me. I'd like to look back and reflect on that. Now for the past year, I've been studying Reformed theology and I'm finding out I have some decisions to make.
Andy Heller I was very pleasantly surprised when I started going to a non denominational Christian church. The pastor (Greg Laurie) would teach on specific parts of the Bible. He was fantastic at making it relatable.? My husband who was raised in a Mormon home, did not want to “do church” One day he came with me & the pastor was teaching from Daniel. He made Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego sound like they were surfer dudes. My husband enjoyed it so much he continued to attend with me. (He also loved that he didn’t have to wear a suit!!) A few years later he accepted Christ!
@@ginamiller6754 I've heard of Greg Laurie. In 2009 I went to a Nazarene church for five years and it was really good. The pastor was genuine and true. I really grew with the Lord and served Him by adult bible study teacher and fill-in pastor. In 2015 the pastor retired and the new one made many changes that were not good. I left as a result. In 2017 I was introduced to RC Sproul and Reformed theology of which I didn't know anything about. It's been a learning experience.
I'm glad you and your husband can attend that church.
Your pastor seems to have been somewhat egotistical. Did your parish report him to the bishop?
charles happold we moved, but heard he had an affair, got caught misappropriating funds & was at least suspended. Sad when egos get in the way. Looking back, now after working as an RN for many years, I suspect their was a diagnosis that got missed.
I was raised ELCA Lutheran, I don't ever plan on leaving because I was preached the gospel. I can see why someone who wasn't preached the gospel would leave though.
ELCA isn't lutheran.
Thank you for this. I left a Sydney Lutheran church earlier this year, mainly because of what I perceive to be a progressivism that is increasingly becoming more prominent. For instance, our synod meeting in February (around the time that I left) moved substantially in the direction of women’s ordination and I was told by influential, longtime insiders within our church that this was just the tip of the iceberg. So, I’m re-exploring Reformed theology, which I had left years earlier, owing to my dissatisfaction with non-confessional Neo-Calvinism that I took to be representative of Reformed theology. I even read Calvin through this lens. So I’m trying to re-work some of those misunderstandings, though in surveying some of the confessions, I have stronger affinities for the Continental Reformed. I can definitely approve of the Belgic Confession, on say the article concerning the Lord’s Supper; I also like the Heidelberg Catechism. I’d probably need some guidance going through the Westminster, because I’ve been tainted by a distaste for the London Baptist Confession, which seems to have a similar intellectual temper to the Westminster.
Join a Missouri synod church.
Your issue is with Lutheranism primarily and perhaps progressive Christianity that is more inclusive than Bible-Belt believers. Lutherans don't make a decision for God. We are receivers of His Mercy. Nothing we can do deserves Heaven but it is in the Body and Blood of Christ in the Mass and holy Baptism/ holy Absolution, the very Word of God that we are forgiven.
I left the Lutheran Church after being a 40 year member. I went to a different religion that is more "controvercial" but I am much happier now. My church was an ELA Lutheran Church and I felt like it had changed so much in the past 2 decates. Every Sunday, I felt like I was going to church to watch the news and barely anything about God. It broke my heart to leave because it is where my mother and late father got married, where I was baptized, where my son was baptized (my daughter was in California because we were stationed there at the time). My heart is still sad when I think about it, but I think it was because I was used to it and it ended up being almost a part of me.
Thank you for your testimony , I too got a gospel conversion through the preaching of a Pentecostal preacher. After being a Charismatic I became Calvinistic for many years and last 15 years been an Independent Lutheran. The antinomianism you see in Lutheranism is really stemming from Waltherianism's universal objective justification doctrine in USA. This is not Luther's and Book of Concord teaching on justification. The sacraments is actually founded on JBFA but that is another story.
I too have a similar background being brought up in an ALC church that later became ELCA. I looked hard at Reformed Theology while living in Akron OH in 90’s. I saw Alister Begg where they practice closed communion based upon whether you are baptized or rebaptized into a particular congregation. And I listened too a lot of RC Sproul. I did this while being a member of an LCMS church at Fairlawn. Eventually, went I felt a the urge to answer the call to ministry I went to Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne where I really became Lutheran then a Pastor. I would have to agree and disagree with some of your opinions. First, you are right in saying there is no Gospel in the ELCA and their law is worldly morality. I say this as someone who left the a church body. Their morality comes from a charismatic enthusiast view of where the “Spirit” is leading them. If you are a Christian you do not belong there. This does not mean the catechisms and ecumenical creeds you learned are not a true exposition or confession of Scripture as you appreciated. 2nd, I disagree with your opinion that all Lutheran theology hangs on Luther. Like the Westminster confessions the 1580 Book of Concord is our official confession. It is what us Pastors subscribe too. And Luther is a great contributor to this through by his catechisms large and small and the Smalcald Articles. Luther’s Works are not included if you are concerned about latent anti-semitism. But there are other authors as well like Martin Chemnitz and Phil Melanchthon who notably wrote the Augsburg Confession and it’s Apology. The BOC contains the unaltered AC. Third, So you can’t be in a church named after a person so you’ll go with a name for Elder? Or based upon a church polity? The name Luther was given to the first Protestants by the Roman Church. Luther reported that he didn’t want a church body named after him but after his death it just stuck. It’s a label and unfortunately Church of Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ was taken… Granted we have awful names for our church bodies. But there are still debates. I vote to rebrand to Orthodox Evangelical Christian Catholic Church, but what a mouthful… Fourth, the objection “we do not want the curse of Luther’s so called antisemitism” is a great argument of those who lack the historical context and are ignorant to the false attribution Hitler made who was clearly Anti-Christian as Lutheran Pastors were put in jail for protesting him. Now Luther never had anyone put to death over a difference in belief but Calvin did. He burnt a Unitarian to the stake in Geneva. And the witch burning Dutch reformed in America made it their mission to wipe Lutherans off the map in New England. It was not until the English took over that there was some measure of tolerance (and perhaps there is your out). You cannot find a legacy of hate and intolerance in Lutherans in fact we are probably tolerant to a fault and we have our history to back this up. The ELCA went to great lengths to own the sin in a reparative manner to reformed Jews for Luther’s sins. 5th the ALC and then the ELCA is ignorant of CFW Walther’s Distinction between Law and Gospel. This actually clarifies things in preaching and why you will hear the Gospel and Law preached in confessional Lutheran church bodies. 6th the greatest obstacle for you as a Reformed Christian to return to the confessional Lutheran church is the sacraments. Reformed do not like things they cannot explain. The scripture however despite our need to understand, uses the term mysteries to Sacraments. I mean if we say we believe the Word of God we have to accept this. “Estin” transliterated Greek for is only means is and not symbol and “in remembrance” means to do it frequently and not remember an event you did not attend. The act is actually a preaching of Christ death 1 Cor. 11:26 to those who receive it for the forgiveness of sin. This is why I rejected Reformed theology. Baptism and the Lord’s supper are not orders for us to do they are institutions of Christ that do what they say they do by His authority to objectively and tangibly forgive sin. Peter says Baptism now saves you. Like the ark saved Noah. It is a tangible work of God. It is Gospel. I am not going to argue with Peter the Apostle about this. Baptism is a gift and babies can receive gifts. 7th I had an ex-PCA pastor as a seminary class mate. He said, he just could no longer preach that Jesus only died for the elect and not the World. Again the scripture in John 3 Jesus says otherwise. In turning a sacrament into ordinances you do repentance without a real absolution what was Christ intended for Gospel, Calvin has turned into law. Perhaps you will reconsider a return to Lutheran Christianity because it is orthodox. But I will warn you, and it is a frustration for me, the church has many tares among the wheat.
Do Lutherans believe we "receive forgiveness through the sacraments"? I thought I had read that about the Lutheran denomination, but I did not know that there are different subdivisions of Lutheranism. Can you confirm or deny whether they teach that?
No. Sacraments are the means of grace, how God delivers His grace to us. Baptism is what works forgiveness.
-Yours truly and in Christ
an orthodox Lutheran
Se Lk 3:3 , Jn 3:5 , Rm 6:3-5 , Ti 3:5-7 ,1Pt 3:21-22.
We receive forgiveness from God, who works through the Sacraments to deliver it.
All Lutherans believe the same about the sacraments. All Lutherans essentially agree about everything since we adhere to the Augsburg Confession. The ELCA parishes are required to celebrate the Eucharist weekly but allow those who do not understand or profess the Real Presence of Christ in the Mass to take communion with us. How can we interfere with the salvation of others merely due to pious self-righteousness and narrow dogmatism?
@@charleshappold4637 I was simply trying to detirmine what Lutherans believe in that regard.
Having grown up in the ALC (which became the ELCA), I can relate to your journey well. I also left liberal lutheranism and found evangelicalism, particularly conservative flavors of presbyterianism, to be much more centered on the Word of God. It didn't stop there though. The more I studied, the more I was disturbed by reformed thought. In particular, was the schismatic tendency that the reformed tradition has intrinsically, a tendency that has resulted in thousands of "gospels" being preached all over the world. Thanks to a faithful Lutheran chaplain, who I met while stationed in Germany, I was given the opportunity to re-examine Lutheranism and what it is on a confessional basis (the Lutheran Confessions have been around since 1578) and I was shown how the ELCA (and really every other liberal tendency that creeps into "lutheran" congregations is terribly unfaithful to Confessional Lutheranism as it has been defined now for over 450 years. Congregations that hold to the inerrancy of scripture would do well to re-examine the Lutheran Confessions. I could go on about this, but the bottom line is that, historically, the vast number of divisions in the church are really due to the heterodox affiliations between Zwingli, Calvin, and Arminius. Confessional Lutheranism is a breath of God-fearing fresh air in this context. Unfortunately, everyone that thinks they are "Lutheran" or that they were once Lutheran, are usually ignorant of the Lutheran distinctions, despite having grown up in a church which had a "Lutheran" sign out front.
Matthew, Thank you for posting! I grew up in a Lutheran church too but was saved elsewhere. I was blessed to have loving Lutherans help me draw nearer to God. Lutherans I know still look out for each other. However, like you said baptism does not wash away our sins- only believing in Christ and His finished work does that. This is a big deal because Paul talked to the Galatians about preaching “another gospel.” Baptism is mandated by Christ yet is not part of justification. It’s interesting how Paul had an issue with adding one requirement to the gospel yet Luther brought two sacraments over from being Catholic. Thank you for speaking on these things. Biblical traditions over man made traditions!
Matthew Everhard, thank you for sharing your testimony about how you first heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that after hearing the Gospel message, from the Pentecostal preacher, you received that Christ died on the cross and shed His blood for us to save us from condemnation - He that believeth on
him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only Son of God (John 3: 18).
I want you to know, Matthew and others in these comments, that I was raised in the American Lutheran Church, but I had to leave shortly before 1988, when the ALC became the ELCA. The ELCA subscription to a false hermeneutic, called Historical Criticism, was undermining the authority of the Scriptures. Historic Criticism contains a variety of ways (Liberal) that the Scriptures could be interpreted, but the required hermeneutic for Biblical interpretation has always been one, and this is Historic Grammatical Hermeneutic (Conservative). Historical Grammatical Hermeneutic was used to
create the Old NIV Study Notes especially for lay Christians. I began hearing a clearer Gospel message by taking invites, from other Christians, to a variety of Churches, like Inter-denominational, Non-denominational Crusades, or anywhere that there was an altar call to say the Sinner's prayer.
Many times did I take part in the Sinner's prayer, until I felt more "For sure" of my eternal salvation, even in the Mainline Protestant denominations, where the sinner's prayer is the Order of Confession and Forgiveness, after singing a hymn. The Presbyterians, Lutheran, Episcopalians, and Methodists, all
follow the Biblical structure for worship and prayer: Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, and Supplication. Now, I continue to commit to Christ in the
practice of homebound devotion, prayer, and Bible study, and by listening to Christian messages from trusted people online. The following youtube
reference, ruclips.net/video/rFQaA8--2uo/видео.html, is just one example of who I listen too, but beforehand, I have a program of Christian
hymns and spiritual songs.
Matt - I really appreciate these spiritual journey videos. Great job!
Some thoughts from an Anglican friend of Lutheranism:
-Lutheran theology and preaching is centered on the juxtaposition of Law and Gospel. Lutheran preaching should always include Law and Gospel, with the emphasis on Gospel.
-Lutheranism’s relationship to Luther is roughly the same as Calvinism’s relationship to Calvin: inspired by but not beholden to. The Book of Concord, to which all confessional Lutherans subscribe, is very much the product of multiple theologians, not only (or even primarily) Luther. Lutheran theology continued to develop long after Luther died-cf. Lutheran Scholasticism.
-“Lutheran” was a disparaging label applied by Rome during the Reformation to self-described “evangelicals.” In Europe today, Lutheran churches are called “Evangelical.” In the modern era, Lutherans are the original evangelicals.
-The Greek term for the Latin word “sacrament” is “mysterion.” In the Orthodox churches, the sacraments are referred to as “the mysteries.” Like Orthodoxy, Lutheranism affirms a “ministerial” use of human reason but is wary of what it sees as Calvinism’s “magisterial” use of reason. After all, it was Rome’s magisterial use of reason that dogmatized transubstantiation. Lutheranism is comfortable with some mystery, most especially when it comes to the sacraments. (This applies as well to the Lutheran view on predestination in contrast to the Reformed view: some things are not clear to us, and in such cases we should not try to systematize.)
In sum, the Lutheran reformation was about the recovery of the apostolic faith, submitting to Scripture as the sole infallible rule of that faith, but not casting aside the early Church’s witness and practice. It would see certain Reformed views, including iconoclasm and the nature of sacraments, as a development away from authentic apostolic witness.
P.S. While there are surely many faithful Lutherans still within the ELCA, the ELCA as an organization is now Lutheran in name only. If you’re looking for a faithful Lutheran church, look to LCMS, WELS, NALC, etc. And if you want to better understand Lutheranism, check out Dr. Jordan B. Cooper’s channel “Just and Sinner.”
I don't subscribe to any denomination, myself. But if I did, I too would lean towards conservative Presbyterian, as well! I love how they teach directly from the Bible and they keep the teaching of scripture within the context of it being stated in the time it was written.
I grew up Lutheran as well. Travelled through the “Born Again” movement in the ‘70-‘80s, and came to Catholicism (my mother’s religion) in ‘84. I love hearing people’s faith journeys. Thanks, once again, for your excellent content.
Really? We don't see roman catholics as saved.
WasLostButNowAmFound who is “we”? Your comment is judgmental and insulting. And Mr Everhart’s good videos are certainly not the place for debate.
@@carolynfiore3216 judgmental no. Its just what our beliefs are. Go look it up in the Westminster confessions.
I went to a non-denominational Sunday school. Later switched to LCMS church (we were already Lutheran). When I moved to a new city, I started attending ELCIC which was down the road from me. After about a year, I discovered a LCC church on the other side of town and started attending there. I will never go back to ELCIC/ELCA.
I am loosly reformed (continuationist Baptist) but I just need to say that the case could be made that Reformed theology is more in line with Calvin than Lutheranism is with Luther.
Some Luther is rejected or nuanced greatly by preceding Lutherans. Melanchthon would have been most responsible for the Augsburg confession which is the confession of the Lutheran faith
Not sure what you mean by crystalized. LCMS preaches the gospel, gives the sacraments instituted by Christ, and is apostolic in nature. Anything beyond that is created by man.
I grew up in a orthodox church and understand what you went through. Where the waters don't flow they become stale .
As an outsider - confessional Lutherans hold their confessions over luther as a particular theologian. Look into martin chemnitz or Melancthon. Beza had debates with reformed and protestants. I think in germany they were called gospelers
Interesting points about Lutheranism. I never thought of them as frozen in time stuck to the doctrines on Luther but my knowledge is somewhat limited about them. I agree that Luther seemed to have gone a little nuts at the end of his life. Seems from what I was told he was favorable of the Jews some 20 years earlier before he wrote against them.
By the way I am curious as to what Bible you have next to you under the photo of the old car?
It's a shame we lost your great mind because you were in the most liberal branch of Lutheranism. I'd encourage you to read the Book of Concord (the complete Lutheran confessions) to see what you're missing out on.
1. "Lutheran" was actually a derogatory name thrust upon us by the Roman Catholics during the reformation. Originally they called themselves evangelicals. In alot of more conservative circles we refer to ourselves as Augsburg Catholics. Luther was not alone in the development of the theology. Philip Melancthon wrote most of the confessions with his help.
2. The sacraments. Indeed Lutherans do like to get hung up on the way the Lord's Supper should be labeled (consubstantion or not) but ultimately yes, we believe it is the literal flesh and blood of Christ. Just as the trinity is a divine mystery beyond human understanding, so too is the Lord's Supper. This is of course taken purely from scripture when the night before His death, Christ in the institution says "this IS my body and this IS my blood." No, not a symbol not a metaphor, the one who spoke all creation into existence stated that the Lord's Supper is His literal flesh and blood.
3. The image of Christ is to be celebrated. God came as both fully God and fully man to be seen by us that we may witness His sacrifice for us and record it for all peoples of the Earth. A church should have at the very least a crucifix, as a cross without Christ is meaningless and also Christ without the cross has little importance.
4. Reformation "stagnation." Basic church history shows that the Roman Catholic church was THE church through the many centuries after Christ, at least in the western world. The corruption of man, in our sinfulness, crept into the church, its practices, and theology. Martin Luther wasn't trying to start a new church, he was obviously trying to reform the one church to get rid of the non biblical beliefs and corruption. He did. The double edged sword of the reformation was that other now big name theologians DID want to start a new church. So as it stands with conservative, confessional, orthodox Lutherans, we are the one catholic (universal) church.
3FirstNames Lutherans aren’t *the* one Catholic and apostolic church. They are members *of* the one catholic and apostolic church, along with every other church that preaches the true Gospel. The church, being Catholic, transcends many denominational differences.
Perfect response to the video @3FirstNames. Yes, Augsburg Catholics would be a much better name than Lutheran.
Amen. Only the catechisms and Smalcald Articles are Luthers work in the Lutheran Confessions, although Melanchthons works have Luther looming in the background. The reformational truths of these men were not their own theology but of scripture, and they also drew upon other great theologians in history as testimonies to the scripture: St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Athanasius, St. John Chrysostom, St. Prosper of Aquatain, St. Bernard etc.
AFAIK, in a moment of weakness, Luther was almost willing to extend fellowship to Zwingli despite one disagreement on the last of 14 articles, which regarded the Lords Supper. However Melanchthon reminded him to remain strong. Roman Catholics would take them far less seriously had they compromised by communing with, what they considered to be, a sectarian body that denied the literal meaning of the words of Christ instituting the new testament.
So, Lutheranism is based on one man, Luther, but Calvinism is not based on Calvin. 😅😅😅 Have you ever heard of Augsburg Confession? Of Formula of Concord? ( Luther was even deceased at the time of FoC.) But never mind, you have a beard, that is enough.
Wow! I have been a WELS Lutheran all my life. I am 74 and I have never been exposed to some of the issues you have brought. 1. Confessional Lutheran absolutely believe that the Bible is the enerrant (don't know how to spell check) . The Bible is to be followed first and foremost -taught that all my life. The ELCA have not believed nor taught that for at least 50 years now and that is why the are not Lutheran in doctrine or faith, they misuse the term Lutheran. They are a social issue group now. 2. I have seen statues of Jesus in either giving a blessing or hangs raise as sending into heaven. And the older church have stain beautiful stain glass window but never any icons. Where was that. 3. All protestant churches can thank Luther for what he started. Knowing his story, you would know that he was a young man driven with guilt and bad feels about his sins and found no peace with a fearful Lord until he studied the Bible on his own, found truth and God, s love there and then protest against wrong teaching of the Catholic Church. He started from scratch. 4. And he so disliked any one calling themselves Lutheran that he forbade followers to do so. He taught we are Christ followers only. But the Catholic Church continued with the name as an insult. 5. The books of Concord are the confessional books of the Lutheran faith and contain 6 -8 different documents stating what confessional Lutheran's believe and ELCA have not held to those confessions for along time. 6. I have heard gospel and law ever time I go to church and I am very very sorry that many of you have been deceived and have not heard this all your years. But the Lord works even through debates like this. Enough!!! May the bless and keep us all until we get to see Jesus face to face.
No...Luther did NOT start from scratch. He recovered the Gospel overshadowed by the RC church...a Gospel that was always there throughout church history.
Its so interesting that you went from liberal Lutheranism to conservative Presbyterianism and Jordan Cooper went from the semi-liberal EPC to conservative Lutheranism.
Grew up Lutheran
Spiritual
Non religious now
A big reason is the God 💖 I know
Isn't one of Damnation
But of relationship
And transformation
The potter and the clay continues
What really attracted me to lcms is the ways in which the liturgies are like Catholic. Actually I’ve never met a Lutheran that used or liked “ consubstantiation”, but prefer the term “real presence”, it does have a mysterious feel to it, I think trying to exactly defining how Christ is present is kind of like explaining the nature of God. It’s like beyond finite man. The other thing I like about Lutherans is they don’t concentrate on hellfire and the like but emphasize God’s Grace. As far as icons go, I have several in my home and when I look at a crucifix, I’m reminded of God’s love for me and how far He is willing to go to reconcile us to Him. I have never prayed to or bowed down to any icon. They’re just reminders.
Don't you think that when people didn't have books and cannot afford to have one in the early years of Christianity that the images and icons of Jesus, the narratives depicted in the iconography, etc. helped remind them of the story of Jesus in the same way as you read the Bible? The images was an instrument - not a distraction - to help remind them of the basic teachings of Christianity. We think and interpret history as modern Christians where we have the luxury of owning the Sacred Scriptures for every individual, yet we fail to put the early historical facts in its proper context.
Speaking about statues or images, these were not prohibited by God. In fact, if you read past the 10 Commandments narrative, God instructed Moses to fashion an image of two Cherubims on each end of the Ark of the Covenant - and together with the Ark it was placed in the Holy of Holies! Again, context is important.
That is quite a good first point, which I have never heard before.
Read Corinthians about baptism. Lutherans doctrine on baptism is precisely Sola Fide.
This is very good wisdom I am currently looking for a new church and a sect of Christianity that that I am no not as familiar with and I have been to many different denominations and have been considering considering going to lutheran. My faith always is with Christ
I was Lutheran and to me they avoided hell l, they made MY OPION God all warm fuzzy loving not saying that he’s a hater but they didn’t preach he’ll and the other end if the spectrum. MY OPION
You answered your own question when you mentioned the Lutheran confessions. The confessions are most certainly not all written by Luther! Far from it!
I see some pictures of your loved ones over your shoulder on your bookshelf. Looking at them probably reminds you of your love for them and maybe when you look at them you say a little prayer, or think about your relationship and how you have weathered some storms together.
That is the purpose of Catholic ‘icons’. They are used merely as reminders of the people represented in them. We don’t worship icons, we really don’t. They enhance and inspire our spiritual life in the same way the pictures on your bookshelf remind you of people who have enhanced and inspired you in your life.
The greatest commandment is love. If icons and images of people and nature help us love more, I don’t see any harm in them. I might put a stone in my pocket that my 3 year old gave me and think of him when I touch it. I might wear the ring my parents gave me and think of them when I gaze at it or touch it. These things are ok, they are symbols of our love.
That’s my two cents.
I grew up Lutheran before the split in the 80s. We went the Presbyterian church in the for about 10 years, they’ve had their split too. I went back to the Lutheran church after going to a non denominational church. I would not got to ELCA In the LCMS, all the churches I’ve been to preach the gospel.
My mother grew up in Massillon Ohio. We are also of Germanic blood. She converted to Mormonism and I just left the Mormon church after 37 years and became born again when I heard the gospel preached. My Mom said she chose Mormonism because they had more answers than the Lutheran church.
Pastor Matt, always like your vids. This one really resonates with me as I have been on my own serious spiritual journey. Will try not to go into all the details, but I have had questions and a deep thirst that was never satisfied since I was in high school, and I am 64 now. My path has been a LOT different than yours though in many ways. I will just say that after decades of being a self declared "card carrying" Protestant, and having membership in various churches, including Pentecostal, I converted to the Orthodox faith about 3 years ago. I did a lot of head scratching and really pinned my poor priest to the wall as I interrogated him about all that strange stuff that would make you uncomfortable, I am sure and that I had EXTREME concerns about. My concerns were about Mary and "WHAT'S UP WITH THE ICONS?" After thorough questioning, I realized that I had found a home I had been searching for since 1971! What a shock. Keep the vids coming, by the way. Love them!
What about WELS?
I would love to see you and Jordan Cooper have a discussion. 😁
Very interesting thanks. Interestingly in my interactions with LCMS pastors it seems to me that Luther was probably much closer to Calvin than the church that bears his name. I like some aspects of their worship in LCMS but the baptismal regeneration and general sacramentalism are a major concern to me also.
Thank you for the honest way you presented your thoughts. You seem like an interesting man who is open to the truth and that is rare and admirable. I would suggest that you are correct. You do not have a deep understanding of classical Lutheran theology. A couple examples. The term "Lutherans" was a derogatory term given to those who were trying to reform the incredible corruption in the Catholic Church under Pope Leo. Luther HATED it when it was adopted as a sign of defiance against Rome. Later in life when he realized he could not.stop it, he used to pray that perhaps the word would be used by God to point to Christ in all things.
Most of the confessional doctrines of the German Lutherans were not written by Luther although like Calvin, he had a great influence on them.
As for classical Lutheran theology being " frozen", from Luther's time through the 20th century there have been so many incredible scholars who have contributed so very much to the understanding of what Luther was trying to do. The ELCA sadly has nothing in common with the Rwformation and I agree seems to have made the Gospel secondary to Social Justice and liberalism. In the end, Lutherans who adhere to the Augsburg Confessions follow Christ, not Luther or any other man.
God bless your service, to Christ for God's Glory!
Also, Lutherans ascribe to the creeds of the ancient church, not the Westminster.
By the way, Scripture never guarantees a thorough explanation of everything. The Sacraments are a mystery.....the word "mysterion" is used in the NT for this. I invite you to study it further. Nice video.
I’m an Anglican and don’t entirely agree with you however thank you for a clear presentation. I am close to the Lutheran position.
Hey Adrian I just read your post. No disrespect, however if you are Anglican you would have more ties to Reformed and Presbyterian than Lutheranism. Check your history. Anglicans/ Episcopal are Catholic- Reformed and Evangelical. So that said, I am not sure I would agree. The Reformed/ Presbyterian Church its part of the Church of Scotland which is Presbyterian. Check history and doctrines. All my best.
@@josee18 thanks. I am no fan of Presbyterianism - it no longer exists as a separate denomination and historically it’s politics lead to the Civil War and all the destruction. Anglicanism should have been Orthodoxy for the English and I have long thought that the Synod of Whitby was a huge mistake. I’m a fan of Richard Baxter who called himself Reformed Catholick. Baxter’s expression ‘Mere Christian’ is a good one. Denominationalism in the West is disastrous.
Baxter was a general Presbyterian, which was controversial, during the Commonwealth and Restoration era. John Owen was the leading light of that era.
I would say the enemies of Presbyterianism lead to civil war.
One minister you may find engaging is John Flavel, of the same era. He was in Dartmouth.
I recommend The Mystery of Providence.
@@davegibbs6423 IN ALL MY YEARS of being PRESBYTERIAN from the mainline denomination and knowing all the sub denominations within Presbyerianism..I have NEVER heard of a GENERAL PRESBYTERIAN there was no denomination of the such. YOU MAY be confusing the Baptist denomination ..There are General Baptists..not General Presbyterians..wrong denomination and beliefs..sorry. I am a mainline Presbyterian. Baptiszed as a child Methodist and Confirmed in the United Presbyterian Church which is PCUSA now.
@@josee18 my usage. Baxter ended up believing in general salvation not particular, which was why he ended up controversial.
I am a recently-hired pianist at a small conservative (Missouri Synod) Lutheran Church. I had been a Southern Baptist all my life (still with membership there). I like the congregational participation in the Lutheran worship. Maybe it’s simply the same Baptist pastor I’ve sat under for 22 years, and I say “sat under” because other than standing for a few hymns and one or two prayers, you SIT for 45 minutes under a sermon that has a lot of filler and fluff to stretch it out that long; I was dissatisfied and discouraged. I felt like my Christian life had become climbing a greased pole, always falling short. Consequent to our sitting silently for 45 minutes (our pastor doesn’t elicit ‘Amens’ but likes them, though, frustratingly, doesn’t pause long enough to hear any) I think our Baptist pastor sees his flock as pew-warmers and judges them by how active they are in church activities. He knows little of their spiritual day-to-day lives. Also, our pastor (the Baptist, not Lutheran) is inordinately influenced by John MacArthur, who teaches a “saving faith,” a difficult, nebulous bilateral -contract faith where you promise obedience, good works for Christ’s saving you. This is NOT the Gospel I heard in the 1960’s in the robust Baptist churches. The Baptists (Southern) are now undergoing a crisis as Jimmy Carter and Beth Moore have alleged sexism and racism, but in my case I’m seeing the Lord’s Supper being warned of as capable of killing you without a right heart, and immersion baptism as a simple ‘dunking’ unless you understand all the theological implications of what you are doing. These precious lone two Ordinances seem less than celebratory in my Baptist church. I don’t agree with the entire Lutheran doctrine, and I’m disappointed at their lack of outreach to visitors and unbelievers. I can resolve in my personal efforts to witness of Jesus, and of Paul’s Gospel. For now, I love the beauty, order, liturgy, creeds (I thrill to “I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, born of a virgin...”) - and I didn’t know Lutherans sang Baptist hymns! ; ) Also, with my agreeing to it, I wear a small clipped microphone as I sing as I play - there’s no worship leader, well, I suppose I am! I have liberty to choose my own preludes and music to play during Communion.
You are too harshly judging Martin Luther with modern context and beliefs. Martin Luther was very sympathetic to Jews at first and was for converting them. But after he found out what Jewish teachers taught about Jesus being boiled in excrement in hell as well as financial suffering of many German peasants by some Jews, he began to dislike of them. It was after years of dealing with them that the hatred kept growing. While what he said was harsh even back then, but we should understand that people of Christendom took heresy as detrimental back then.. perhaps current generations should think about these things. We need to remember that people believed in blessing from God for the nation/kingdom back then...
Interesting take. I was raised Reformed and converted to Lutheran Christianity. Luther had many faults, Zwingli had many more. Zwingli didn’t totally understand faith through grace.
One of my ancestors was a member of Baughman-Everhard church in Wayne county OH. It was a union congregation with both Lutheran and Reformed parishioners. Maybe Everhard was related to your ancestors.
I gave the Missouri Synod a chance in two different cities but it didn't work for me, still have love for them.
Could you comment on the Corona Virus?
Try the WELS
Try ELS, ELDoNa, AALC, or try another LCMS Church.
Coronavirus is a good example of how Lutherans cannot deal with anything today. What IS the kingdom of Christ, anyway?
You'd make a great LCMS pastor
Our believes aren't in our DNA, or heritage. Especially Christianity. Especially. Messages from the ELCA was actually what brought me back to God. A conservative Presbyterian church was the last church I truly ever attended 20 years ago. It was the one church that finally broke the camel's back and made me decide that if that was Christianity, I did not want to have any part of it. Images help me focus in my worship, instead of distract from it. Funny how God calls us in different ways isn't it. A psychologist could posit that the man in this video might have at various points, confuses his emotions with his theology.
Didn't hear the gospel? Impossible! Why? The creeds are PURE gospel. The law is to do or not to do. The gospel are all the things God does for us. In confirmation are you saying the Pastor taught only law passages and excluded the Gospel passages? As the old dictum goes: Congregations can turn a mediocre pastor into a great pastor by the quality of their hearing.