Three Streams of Lutheranism in America
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- Опубликовано: 30 авг 2019
- My website: www.jordanbcooper.com
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Twitter: / justandsinner
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This video discusses three different streams of Lutheranism in America in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. I discuss the synodical conference, Samuel Schmucker, and more.
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I've been attending Missouri Synod classes and will be a member of my church this Sunday! The best decision of 2023!
I'm a member of a LCMC congregation and came across your channel while studying the book of concert in a small group. I enjoy your videos and looking forward to digging deeper into the theology of my faith. Thank you.
Thank you. You cannot imagine how much peace of mind that I received from this.
Janet Letnes Martin, author of "Cream and Bread", "They Glorified Mary, We Glorified Rice, and "Luther's Small Dictionary" said the eventual goal was the AFL-CIO. American Federation of Lutherans - Coerced Into One.
I see this changing from the confessions and adapting to American evangelical beliefs happening in the lcmc. I knew of a church that hired a non Lutheran pastor who preached “it’s a relationship not a religion and denied infant baptism”
Those types were always more on board with Pietism than anything distinctively Lutheran. Alot of them are influenced by Fundamentalism/Evangelicalism in the US.
Oh, come on, Lutherans are the OG Protestants. I'm proud of my Lutheran heritage and proud that Luther started the Protestant Reformation. You're giving up a lot if you say Calvinists are the "real Protestants".
I would point out that the Norwegian Synod was a key member of the Synodical Conference. And in later days it’s successor the Evangelical Lutheran Synod was part of it.
Useful understanding of different branches of Lutheranism in NA. A yr ago, we moved to the town where Martin Luther University College is located and are having difficulty finding a church. There are large Lutheran and Anabaptist populations in the area. Most of the Lutheran churches seem to be associated with ELCA which would be very uncomfortable for us to attend although my wife was baptised Lutheran in Finland. As best I can tell there are Missouri Synod churches but not within reasonable driving distance for Seniors. The Lutherans and Anabaptists seem to hold totally opposed theology although it would seem that there are possibilities at nearby Anabaptist churches at least to be adherents. Prior to this we had been Reformed which is different than Calvinist. Would like to understand in what sense Lutheran communion is more scramental or different than Anglican Eucharist.
In our Reformed churches we require our ministers and elders and deacons to strictly subscribe to our creeds and confessions in this case the Three Forms of Unity. This is vital. Thank you so much for your explanation of Lutheran history and theology
In South Carolina, there were many German Lutherans that came in the 1700’s and settled around Columbia. My ancestors were part of this groups. There are many Lutheran churches here to this day but unfortunately most are ELCA. A few have joined the LCMS and NALC. I’m curious as to your opinions of the NALC and what would distinguish them from other Lutheran groups.
They ordain women as bishops. -_-
@@haroldgamarra7175yep....wanna be lukewarm...gay marriage goes to far but no women pastors is too conservative....they are ELCA light...not confessional Lutherans.
This was awesome thanks!
Dear Dr. Cooper,
New ideas to me: "confessional theology" "confessional tradition". Also, what about any resources about the Lutheran concepts of Sacrimental theology. Any recommendations for intro books and videos. Thank you for your work. Learning much as a guy who grew up in Evangelical movements born in 1800s. Looking for more church w/o phobias of traditon, history, and liturgy.
Not sure if he'll respond, but maybe I can help. Here's some links that any Lutheran pastor should be able to give you (always better in person I think). These are all from the Book of Concord, otherwise called the 'Confessions of the Evangelical Church' (Evangelical was the first name for 'lutherans')
The foundational document clarifying 'luthern/evangelical' thought against what would become the tridentine Catholics
bookofconcord.org/augsburg-confession/
The handbook for every Christian (I was taught this in Sunday school and the home from, probably birth)
bookofconcord.org/small-catechism/
Then if you're a glutton for reading material you can have a look at the clarifications on disputes after Luther died
bookofconcord.org/formula-of-concord-epitome/ (short)
bookofconcord.org/formula-of-concord-solid-declaration/ (long)
I would recommend Luther’s Small Catechism with Expansions. I prefer Concordia Publishing House’s 1991 to the 2017 edition.
As a recent convert to Lutheranism... I definitely have a much to learn about what it means to be Lutheran.
Please make a video on "Why I'm not Eastern Orthodox" like you did with "Why I'm not a Roman Catholic". As someone about to swim the Tiber, so to speak, I'd be very interested! Thanks!
Where are you swimming from?
@@prayunceasingly2029 Non-Denominational Calvinism.
@@drewmann856
I'm a former Calvinist too
@@prayunceasingly2029 Yeah, Calvinism makes God an arbitrary tyrant. I always tell people, seminary ruined me. Once you learn Church History, read the Father's, and then go to a modern Protestant Church or read modern Protestant literature, it's just like "wait, we're doing this wrong". Like how did a whole strain of Christianity (Calvinism) come to disbelieve in Baptismal Regeneration, when that's one of a very few issues that the early Church is entirely consistent on? I've come to the conclusion that I can take Confessional Lutheranism and Anglo-Catholicism seriously, but every other form of Protestantism just has no business even existing. No one ever believed anything approaching Calvinism, but we suddenly figured it out in the 16th century. That's ridiculous. Orthodoxy just makes the most sense to me, and seems to be much more stable than any other Church. If it were 1940, I'd probably pull a C.S. Lewis and just be an Anglo-Catholic, but very few of those types of Churches even exist anymore.
@@drewmann856
Interesting! Personally I feel like a dependence on church liturgy and tradition could possibly become a wrong emphasis. As it is the first love for God that must take pre eminence within believers. My conviction about faith is that tradition isn't absolutely essential, yet orthodox doctrine is quite important, and most importantly a love for God is absolutely essential. Calvinism makes God into a tyrant I agree. If God is already damning people to hell Satan doesn't need to do anything, as some are already predestined to reject God by God's own decree. That's a messed up perspective.
Was educated and confirmed Lutheran,
K thru university. Lost my faith around 20; went from there to an affair with Marxism, existentialism, a kind of American Buddhist - Heideggerian, Beckett Nothingness; organized Unions, worked construction and ended in Hollywood films (small speaking roles)
Now, I'm back at a Mo. Synod church in St. Louis... here's the kicker, 64 - looking back, church or no...in my heart and soul I was always Lutheran, thru and thru. I started realizing this when I read Henry Miller's:
THE ROSY CRUCIFIXION trilogy, and was flabbergasted at how bloody Lutheran the thing read to me. What am I saying?
The Lord works in mysterious ways?
Yes. Perhaps that's it.
Thanks. Great to know. God's peace be with you
What's the difference between Anglican and Lutheran sacramentology?
It seems to be that going on all about these differences and why there should be many boats in the ocean and why these boats should defend themselves from and against each other flys in contrast to John 17 where Jesus says
20 “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21 “so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
What about ethnic loyalties eg Swedish, Finnish and Norwegian groups?
I just wondered if they were Lutheran first and then their country group or the other way around.
Think it was more about their language group
Ok. Thank you.
I went to two different Lutheran churches in the last two weeks, one "modern" and one "traditional", but neither one "read the Lutheran confessions" during the service, so I'm not sure what you're referring to with that. Is that actually standard practice? There was a general "confession and absolution" that was part of the traditional service and it went thus (copied from my service program):
P: He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
C: I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."
P: "Because he loves me," says the Lord, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
C: He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him."
(silence for reflection on God's Word and for self-examination)
P: Come before God, your refuge and your fortress, for he is loving and forgiving, and he alone has prepared your salvation.
C: Heavenly Father, though you have called us to be your holy nation, we have not lived as citizens of a holy nation. We stumble in the face of temptation, and sin against you in thought, word, and deed by what we have done and by what we have left undone. Forgive us, Lord, for the sake of your Son, who suffered temptation and won for us the victory by suffering and dying in our place. Help us to arise from our sin as he arose from the dead, and to be renewed in holy living to your glory. Amen.
P: Almighty God, our refuge and fortress, hears your confession and has mercy on us for the sake of his Son Jesus. Upon this your confession, I, as a called servant of the Word, can announce the grace of God to all of you, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I can announce that your sins are forgiven in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
C: Amen. Thanks be to God.
It seems to be in the same spirit and intent as the official Lutheran confession (to me anyway), but it isn't what is written in the Lutheran Service Book or Luther's Small Catechism. The modern service had some version of general confession and absolution as well, though it was shorter and didn't have the same "call and response" format. Neither one offered either of the two sacraments during service either (maybe they are done upon request only, such as the case for personal confession, or perhaps only on some service days, I don't know). These were both LCMS churches, and I was at the traditional service for Reformation Sunday, which one would think would place special emphasis on Luther himself, though apart from a selected quote or two and an acknowledgement that we were celebrating the day he posted his 95 Theses, he was otherwise not mentioned. Any thoughts on this?
Same thing happened at the tower of Babel.
I think the ethnic identity of Lutheranism in the US is a detriment at times, because people perceive it as an ethnic religion. It does give a certain richness or beauty lacking in other traditions, like celebrating a feast day of St. Lucy or something like that (popular in Sweden and among some Swedish Americans), but it does come with downsides. This is similar to what happens in the Eastern Orthodox landscape in the US.
Touche. I don't like this comment, but it's true so I 👍🏾ed it.
An American Lutheran theologian once quipped, "All the real Lutherans are dead." In a way he wasn't wrong. If we are honest with ourselves, we don't have anything in America that is a clone of the 16th century golden era. We like to use the term confessional, but we have the various American twists on that. But we don't have the same Lex Orandi Lex Credendi.
Thank you for a very non-biased approach to Lutheranism in America. I came from a church that was NLC - Norwegian Lutheran Church of America which became the ALC - American Lutheran Church which 'merged' into the ELCA. Each merger was truly watering down our faith. I also am an organist and have been shocked at the blatant disintegration of the entire worship experience which I loved when I was a child. With each merge came more restrictions, more 'rules' which were totally in opposition to giving a coherent and meaningful worship experience. I experienced for the first time 'censorship', which really grated against everything that I have known. Organists - regardless of denomination - have had a long history of working with each religion/synod in regard to their confession, and belief. I have substituted at almost all of the major flavors of religion and I would never usurp what their core belief system was by inserting my Lutheranism. By a long history I am speaking of centuries of where we were autonomous and self-governing. All of that was taken away from us including the loss of our National Institutions such as the American Guild of Organists and the Royal Canadian College of Organists for support which had the Supreme Court of the United States stipulate what they can and cannot do as far as our positions. Then, the Synod of the ELCA had a bright idea of reigning in all musicians and controlling them and what they could or could not do. Since there no longer was an organization to support us properly - I lost, even though I fought a good fight til the end.
I guess Im asking randomly but does anybody know of a trick to log back into an instagram account..?
I stupidly lost the password. I love any tricks you can give me
@Cain Matthew instablaster =)
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@Cain Matthew no problem :)
You call the WELS and the LC-MS confessional. Only the WELS is. For a church body to be confessional they must not tolerate deviations from the Word of God but hold to their confession. During the time of DrFranz Pieper the LC+MS was confessional. It is different today. In the LC-MS lots of different doctrines are tolerated. The WELS, the CLC, the LCR, the Eldona are confessional, the LC-MS is conservative and the ELCA is liberal.
Are Lutherans forced to do any type of rosary prayers? I wouldn't feel comfortable doing any type of prayers like that due to the fact of where the Roman Catholic's picked up the idea from? I heard a Lutheran Pastor talking about rosary type prayers using a rosary.
That is not biblical. Lutherans pray as Jesus taught his disciples to do, praying to God directly and asking things in Jesus name. No devices or intermediaries needed.
Have you never been in a Lutheran Church? No they don't pray the rosary
No.
Adiaphora
@@Dilley_G45 many Lutheran Christians pray to the Saints. It's not dogma... it's adiaphora. Ave Maria gratia plena.
There is some of Lutheran Church history you still need to read up on for example, the “Wauwatosa Gospel” is I believe a two or three volume series surrounding the theology of August Pieper and John P. Koehler. The history is very interesting and if you were to google John Phillip Koehler you could read a lot about his contributions to the Lutheran gospel. I am a recipient of the Gospel work he did and passed down to pastor Hans W. Koch in the Wauwautosa seminary back in the early 20s. Also his role in the controversy regarding the Beitz paper which was written to accuse the Wisconsin synod of it’s lack of disciplinary actions surrounding a thievery case in those days. Which resulted in many pastors being ousted and forming the loosely formed Protes’tant Lutheran Church of which I am a member.
Thanks for the info! It's something I know a little about, but would certainly love to learn more.
well if you are catholic you wold certantly reject Trent because true catholics aren't RCC but lutherans
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ONE, FOUNDED BY THE LORD IN THE YEAR 33 AD, THE SAME CHURCH WHO GAVE THE WORLD THE BIBLE IN 382 AD, THEN DAMASUS I ,POPE NUMBER 37 SINCE PETER
@@davido3026 you need to whach another video of Jordan B Cooper I think it is called like this "Is RCC founded by Jesus" he will explain your misakes
Boom!! Mic drop...
LOL Book of Concord! [spell checker]
In researching the Lutheran sacraments, there are no scriptures given to back them up. Why is that?
I've been listening to more of Dr. Cooper's videos and podcasts, and there are many places he shares Scriptures the Church has understood to confirm the sacraments. In this video he was not concerned primarily with that question. If you look up his videos on the Lord's Supper and Baptismal Regeneration, I'm sure you will see the biblical basis for them.
And just personally, as I've been learning, I've been finding those sacraments to be so helpful for me to fix my eyes on the cross and God's love for us in Christ. Hope this helps!
See Wolfmueller for proof texts.
Start looking for videos by Bryan Wolfmueller and Jonathan Fisk. The sacraments are all over the Scripture.
I guess I am a pietist. Great!
Where in the Bible does it say that Christians are supposed to have closed communion? Where does the Bible state you need to prevent a person from taking communion? Sola Scripura
No one is prevented from taking communion. They just have to learn the basic tenets of that church and then profess they believe in and agree to uphold those tenants. Communion is a serious thing.
@@theodosios2615Yes, now where in the Bible does it say to prevent people from taking the Lord's Supper unless they say they believe your pastor holds the keys to heaven. Closed communion based on anything other than a brother living in sin, is in contradiction to the Bible.
Pastor, How many times should Jesus Christ be divided? Is anyone among Lutheran Shepherds capable of working according to the command in Mathew 28 20 without skipping it and claiming only 18 and 19? Ordinary believers need teachers who can show how the teachings of Jesus Christ can be put into practice instead of just preaching Gospel in scholarly way only?
ELCA: "There was an attempt"
I'm glad that Pieper expressed his belief in the firmament and his reservations of Copernican enthusiasm.
He reminded us to keep out-of-step with earthly wisdom. He's much better than your mincing steps and your lukewarm explanations.
Man's science is shifting sand. The Word of our God stands forever.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements? Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
-- Job 38:4-7
🙄
of course, according to their explanations, they came from Germany... where the true gospel was invented...
Nice if you'd explained how Lutherans DO term the Lord's Supper phenomenon if you will, rather than being all apophatic about it NOT being one of consubstantiation. Please don't become one of THOSE scholars.
@David Ortiz well that sure was random
German-Irish gang represent
...AND BOTH SAY "TO BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"...!!!!!
Yes....Catholic means universal....not Roman Catholic....the Creed is older than the split of 1054
Do you understand what Ben Winter said? It's a lower case "c".
@@Dilley_G45 it means Catholic.
Orthodox Christians are Catholics...."Orthodox Catholics".
@@Dilley_G45 ...it doesn't mean "general".
Protestants stop being dishonest.
There was One "Catholic" Church at the time.
@@thekingslady1 you prove my point....catholic means general...Im not dishonest and you need to learn foreign languages
This is an ideological version of Lutheran history in the United States dressed up as an academic presentation. It is sad the "confessional Lutheranism" has devolved into judgments of theological correctness. So polarizing and so far from the Gospel.
I cant understand what this guy really believes.He keeps shifting his tone and talking real fast and mumbling.ALC,LCA and Missouri synod got together and wrote the green hymnal.Then the Alc and LCA merged, and stopped preaching Christ CrucifiedThe LCMS has now split up, even after the Seminex debacle.Why waste my time? The Orthodox is the only hope
Just finish the video haha
Wow, quite the hipster with that styled hair, glasses and beard. Is that part of why you left the Reformed side? They were down on your hipsterness?
How disgusting are you. Maybe he doesn't like the scholastic proto-rationalist theology of reformed churches.
@@eduds6 Not as much as you for defending him, missing the point and misidentifying Reformed theology.
@@rorshakks This is just rude. Hes a good scholar, all his videos are really well researched and he seems like a nice guy. I dont understand why you would insult him?
Lutheranism is almost the definition of Protestantism, along with the Reformed. I totally disagree with you!
Reformed is a deviation from Lutheranism...they added Calvinism and that's the problem
Luther was Nestorian.
He literally affirmed calling mary the mother of god/Theotokos, so what are you on about?
@@kidflersh7807 To believe in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement is Nestorian. That position requires Jesus to be two different people because otherwise the Trinity is split via the Father damning the Son.
Thanks. Great to know. God's peace be with you