I am now a suibscriber to your channel, this video and the other ones about gamut clipping sold me. The gamut clipping issue with Blackmagic footage almost made me ditch the camera all together. Gen5 colour science has definitely made a difference. I realised I had watched your "spaghetti sauce" video a while ago. If I had become a subscriber earlier then I wouldn't have had as many issues. Thanks for all the great information in your videos mate!
Thanks for this video! Very informative and to the point about actual visual differences between the gens. Always great to see quality content like this!
Thanks for this video and the other ones. I bought my BMPCC4k camera three months ago and I am having a hard time adjusting my workflow. Your videos about ACES and BMPCC4k have been very helpful to me. Thank you very much!
When I had to match the BMCC with the Pocket 4K in these awkward red scenarios, I had to do a transform to make the Pocket 4K Gen 1 (kind of), the push the pinks to red. It'll be nice to use Gen 5 now instead. Informative video (Y)
Thanks for sharing this. This is what I needed. I know on one of the live streams I said this issue was not taken care of, but looks like I was wrong. The thing I did was changed the color science in Premiere so maybe that's the issue. I will have to bring my shots into Davinci at some point and see if tail lights look like tail lights should.
Not sure about the context. I don't use luts at all In post, but applying in camera can help you get an idea of what the image will look like when transformed. Did this answer your question?
Nice summary Tony, perhaps one other benefit to Gen 5 i would mention is that the log curve is now constant for all ISOs across all our cameras (doesn't apply to ACES/RCM workflows either). With Gen 4 even on a single camera for those who manually grade or use LUTs as a starting point, shooting at different ISOs on the same camera would give a different amount of "base" contrast as a starting point, so copying grades across shots with different ISOs would likely mean tweaking the grade just to compensate for the ISO change, and across our different cameras even more so (granted you would likely tweak anyway but still). Also any technical LUT can only be for a single ISO and even creative LUTs are likely a compromise and will be different depending on the ISO you shoot. With Gen 5, grades and LUTs can be copied/applied to any of our cameras shot at any ISO and be a much closer match (save for metamerism differences). Sorry for the wall of text!
wait - how does that square with the shifts in DR you get from changing ISO? The whole reason ISO 800 gave another stop of DR in the highlights was because it shifted middle grey down a stop and then altered the curve up a stop to brighten the mids a stop to allow you another stop in the highlights. If what you're saying is true then you can't expect a sliding scale of DR anymore - is that true?
@@phantomluts Going from say ISO400 to ISO800 shifts middle grey UP a stop, not down. You don't gain any DR in the highlights unless you lower how much light is accumulating on the sensor, either by changing the lighting in the scene or lens aperture or integration time on the sensor (frame rate/shutter angle) - THEN you compensate for less light on the sensor by increasing your ISO to get your exposure back to where it was for the lower ISO. So you increase ISO by 1 stop but lower the amount of light on the sensor by 1 stop giving you one more stop in the highlights for the same middle grey brightness on output - the trade off is more noise since you're boosting everything up. The new log curve can hold more DR over middle grey than any of the previous Gen 4 log curves so the log curve won't be the limiting factor here, the camera DR is.
Hook GetUpTo88 yeah that’s what I meant. You turn up the ISO which digs down a stop into the shadows and brings the point on the gamma curve that was previously one stop lower than middle grey into a remapped middle grey. I explained it terribly. Anyway I still don’t understand why this new curve is better for that issue and also what about all the stuff I’ve been hearing of the gamut being severely choked and limited compared to gen4?
@@phantomluts I said the new log curve is more convenient for manual grading as its constant for each ISO/camera so copying grades/LUTs requires less tweaking to compensate for the change in contrast that happens in the older log curves that change per ISO. Gen 5 has gamut compression by default. That's exactly what Tony demonstrated nicely in this video by showing out of gamut errors with strong LEDs etc in Gen 4 reduced in Gen 5. If you would rather handle the gamut mapping yourself, you can use the XYZ or ACES AP0 colour space in Gen 5 as no gamut compression occurs for those. I may possibly add a toggle for gamut compression as well in an update.
I believe that it does save the raw tab selections if that is what you are asking. You should be able to check this with your current version of resolve.
I run the newest public release that isn't the beta, whatever the number is. Sometimes Betas will have have bugs that you don't expect. Even when I update to a new release of software I create a new project file version and upgrade that file to the new version of software just in case it breaks, that way I have an old project file available still running with the old software. I have been doing this a while and I take no chances.
@@TonyDae That makes sense and I get that. I'm working with the latest beta version, but your theory makes sense. I'll be happy when they give a software for Gen 5 in camera. Thanks for your time!
I don't really have anything to say about it since Gen5 grading is roughly the same for me as gen4 since I always use color management. They grade exactly the same due to my workflow, but people preferring manual grading will likely provide some insight.
I just realized that when you have it set to ACES in the Project Settings instead of through nodes like you did, Gen 4 and Gen 5 make zero difference at all. That's usually how I use ACES by setting my whole project to it.
@@TonyDae Captain Hook from BMD actually replied to me saying it was because when you do it through the Color Management tab, it automatically uses AP0 instead of AP1.
If there is no difference between gen4 and gen5 when using the ACES color management options and there are no issues with gamut then that means they changed how it works. I could not use the color management option previously because of the gamut issues you saw here when using bmpcc4k and ACES
Brief, clear and precise explanation as always, many thanks for sharing what you learned with us
I am now a suibscriber to your channel, this video and the other ones about gamut clipping sold me. The gamut clipping issue with Blackmagic footage almost made me ditch the camera all together. Gen5 colour science has definitely made a difference. I realised I had watched your "spaghetti sauce" video a while ago. If I had become a subscriber earlier then I wouldn't have had as many issues. Thanks for all the great information in your videos mate!
Its a really great information to the gen 5 users ..subscribed waiting for more good information Thank You ,Tony..
Thanks for this video! Very informative and to the point about actual visual differences between the gens. Always great to see quality content like this!
Thanks for this video and the other ones.
I bought my BMPCC4k camera three months ago and I am having a hard time adjusting my workflow. Your videos about ACES and BMPCC4k have been very helpful to me.
Thank you very much!
Really appreciate this video. extremely informative and clear.
When I had to match the BMCC with the Pocket 4K in these awkward red scenarios, I had to do a transform to make the Pocket 4K Gen 1 (kind of), the push the pinks to red. It'll be nice to use Gen 5 now instead. Informative video (Y)
Really great comparison thanks.
This is a fantastic evaluation!
The gen 5 with colored lights is better and should end up being easier to work with. Thanks Tony!
Great detailed info, thanks!
very educative, thanks
When i open resolve i cant change it to gen 5 its greyed out
It is only available in the public beta.
@@TonyDae hope they make it available soon
Thanks for sharing this. This is what I needed. I know on one of the live streams I said this issue was not taken care of, but looks like I was wrong. The thing I did was changed the color science in Premiere so maybe that's the issue. I will have to bring my shots into Davinci at some point and see if tail lights look like tail lights should.
#TonyDaeAllDay you should've been a lawyer bro. You know how to shutdown debates in a heartbeat! 🔥🔥🔥
I'm told this pretty often lol
@@TonyDae not from me LOLOL
Exceptions to every rule Longrider
@@TonyDae lol you only win about 40% of the debates with me kid hehe
I don't debate to win, I debate to find the truth!
Also, who's judging the win ratio? You? My opponent?? :P XD
hello Tony... is it preferable to apply GEN 5 LUTs directly to my image in-camera ?
Not sure about the context. I don't use luts at all In post, but applying in camera can help you get an idea of what the image will look like when transformed. Did this answer your question?
Are greens affected from this version? I had the impression that the greens in the footage of the pocket cameras tend to look yellow.
They look the same. Slight yellow tinge and look more normal green in ACES conversion.
@@TonyDae greens are only good on the URSA cameras.
Nice summary Tony, perhaps one other benefit to Gen 5 i would mention is that the log curve is now constant for all ISOs across all our cameras (doesn't apply to ACES/RCM workflows either). With Gen 4 even on a single camera for those who manually grade or use LUTs as a starting point, shooting at different ISOs on the same camera would give a different amount of "base" contrast as a starting point, so copying grades across shots with different ISOs would likely mean tweaking the grade just to compensate for the ISO change, and across our different cameras even more so (granted you would likely tweak anyway but still). Also any technical LUT can only be for a single ISO and even creative LUTs are likely a compromise and will be different depending on the ISO you shoot. With Gen 5, grades and LUTs can be copied/applied to any of our cameras shot at any ISO and be a much closer match (save for metamerism differences). Sorry for the wall of text!
I didn't even explore what happens with iso changes. Perhaps that's for a different video! Thank you!
wait - how does that square with the shifts in DR you get from changing ISO? The whole reason ISO 800 gave another stop of DR in the highlights was because it shifted middle grey down a stop and then altered the curve up a stop to brighten the mids a stop to allow you another stop in the highlights. If what you're saying is true then you can't expect a sliding scale of DR anymore - is that true?
@@phantomluts Going from say ISO400 to ISO800 shifts middle grey UP a stop, not down. You don't gain any DR in the highlights unless you lower how much light is accumulating on the sensor, either by changing the lighting in the scene or lens aperture or integration time on the sensor (frame rate/shutter angle) - THEN you compensate for less light on the sensor by increasing your ISO to get your exposure back to where it was for the lower ISO. So you increase ISO by 1 stop but lower the amount of light on the sensor by 1 stop giving you one more stop in the highlights for the same middle grey brightness on output - the trade off is more noise since you're boosting everything up. The new log curve can hold more DR over middle grey than any of the previous Gen 4 log curves so the log curve won't be the limiting factor here, the camera DR is.
Hook GetUpTo88 yeah that’s what I meant. You turn up the ISO which digs down a stop into the shadows and brings the point on the gamma curve that was previously one stop lower than middle grey into a remapped middle grey. I explained it terribly.
Anyway I still don’t understand why this new curve is better for that issue and also what about all the stuff I’ve been hearing of the gamut being severely choked and limited compared to gen4?
@@phantomluts I said the new log curve is more convenient for manual grading as its constant for each ISO/camera so copying grades/LUTs requires less tweaking to compensate for the change in contrast that happens in the older log curves that change per ISO.
Gen 5 has gamut compression by default. That's exactly what Tony demonstrated nicely in this video by showing out of gamut errors with strong LEDs etc in Gen 4 reduced in Gen 5. If you would rather handle the gamut mapping yourself, you can use the XYZ or ACES AP0 colour space in Gen 5 as no gamut compression occurs for those. I may possibly add a toggle for gamut compression as well in an update.
great job!!! thanks a lot.
Hello, I am newbie in DaVinci and Blackmagic. Do I understand correctly that gen5 is only Ursa12K’s exclusive? Or It works on the pocket 4/6K too?
This video uses pocket 4k braw in the examples.
Its color interpretation of RAW clips from any camera with BRAW
Thank you guys!
You are correct PRIVATE. Gen5 would bake into prores and only needs to be selectable in post with braw
I’m using ACES CC with BRAW.. but colour science is greyed out... how do you access Gen 5?
You need to download and install the recent beta.
Hi when using aces do you play with color wheels or just color correct and not grade?
It depends on what I am working on. Most of the time all I need to do is correct footage. Other times I will use LMT's.
Does the ACES selection and all that, get saved in a power grade for future apply?
I believe that it does save the raw tab selections if that is what you are asking. You should be able to check this with your current version of resolve.
Great video
So you would install the beta only to delete for a non beta version for serious projects?
I would never do serious projects in a beta version of a program. Too risky.
@@TonyDae Okay because I was considering it. Never ran into a problem using beta versions. What version of resolve are you running by the way?
I run the newest public release that isn't the beta, whatever the number is. Sometimes Betas will have have bugs that you don't expect. Even when I update to a new release of software I create a new project file version and upgrade that file to the new version of software just in case it breaks, that way I have an old project file available still running with the old software. I have been doing this a while and I take no chances.
@@TonyDae That makes sense and I get that. I'm working with the latest beta version, but your theory makes sense. I'll be happy when they give a software for Gen 5 in camera. Thanks for your time!
okay, I downloaded the latest version and the color science part remains greyed out. What doing iam wrong?
Gen 5 only available in Beta right now, not in the general/stable release.
@@TonyDae ah, thanks for clarifing. The advertisement on BMDs Website made me feel like its just available right now.
Great, when is Gen 5 going to be in the non- beta resolve?
It out now in the new camera updates
Wonderful... You're the man!
I learned so much from you, sir.
Hey Tony! Could you share a tutorial for “BMD gen5”!!! Thank you very much!
I don't really have anything to say about it since Gen5 grading is roughly the same for me as gen4 since I always use color management. They grade exactly the same due to my workflow, but people preferring manual grading will likely provide some insight.
Thanks
I just realized that when you have it set to ACES in the Project Settings instead of through nodes like you did, Gen 4 and Gen 5 make zero difference at all. That's usually how I use ACES by setting my whole project to it.
Gen 5 color space isn't selectable for CST nodes or RCM so I think they just haven't set it up for standard color management methods yet.
@@TonyDae Captain Hook from BMD actually replied to me saying it was because when you do it through the Color Management tab, it automatically uses AP0 instead of AP1.
If there is no difference between gen4 and gen5 when using the ACES color management options and there are no issues with gamut then that means they changed how it works. I could not use the color management option previously because of the gamut issues you saw here when using bmpcc4k and ACES
I applaud blackmagic!
does gen 5 mean no more converting to arri log c?
If you prefer gen5, then you won't need to convert to logC
OMG the sibblance ... aaarrrgggh
;)
Very interesting though
yay, thats cool
what to do with my bmpcc?update ?
You dont have to do anything with camera and there isn't an update available yet. This is only in the public beta.
90% of my clients know zilch about colors and stuff !! Half of what you describe will not be noticed by the average client !
They would likely notice colors out of gamut though in those horrible situations I'm sure even if they say nothing about it.