NEW Wildemount Echo Knight Fighter - D&D 5e Subclass Series
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- We discuss the next subclass in the series from the BRAND NEW Explorer's Guide to Wildemount source book the Echo Knight Fighter! This subclass gets some interesting abilities... find out what we think of this subclass! We are going to be going over each subclass ability then rating each subclass on Roleplay Value, Combat Value, and Overall Class Synergy. We have a very special rating system as well!
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Laura Bailey: man, could you imagine if Jester's double could hit people?
Matt Mercer: Hey......that's pretty good
Matt's brain: "WRITE THAT DOWN! WRITE THAT DOWN! "
If you've got any questions about what the echo can or can't do, just imagine it's a barrel that you can move, swap places with, and pop out of to melee attack.
The barrel doesn't hit things, you do. The barrel can't use feats, be healed, talk, wield weapons, or have racial traits. The barrel can't pass through walls, or provide flanking. It can't use skills or spells, or be targeted by spells that can't target barrels. Its not an ally, and it can't be effected by conditions.
If you stop imagining it like a person or illusion, it gets more intuitive what can be done with it, and how it works
This is very useful advice, thank you friend
If I’m restrained, I can swap places with my echo, who is immune to ALL conditions, like restrained. Instant escape.
If your echo isn't restrained when you swap you aren't restrained anyway
The writing said "at the cost of 15 feet of your movement", and "restrained" makes your movement 0, so unfortunately you cant swap places to you echo.
@@RandomVnGuy you are paying a cost to teleport, not moving . The movement used is more like a spell component at that point I would think.
@@shanedbunting no, if your speed is 0, it is 0, you can't afford 15 feet.
@@phelps6205 your echo cannot be restrained and always has 30 ft of movement of which you can pay 15.
Quick thoughts on RP for the echo.
Your future self, protecting their younger self.
a literal guardian angel/devil.
Your shadow come to life, like peter pan stile.
A lost love one remaining to protect you in spirit form.
Tacking onto that, last one maybe it's your twin.
A Jojo stile stand.
Lastly, Hard to RP but sounds super fun to me, some form of dissociative identity disorder, manifesting itself as literal alternate versions of yourself.
As you can probably see, I love the rp potential of this subclass.
I'm surprised you didnt have an alternate timeline version of yourself. Could be past, present, or future. They could be from a land much different than the one you find yourself In but wishing to aid you.
or if youre the hollow one race from the guide, maybe its your soul, separated from your body and protecting it for some reason
What I did when I made an echo knight character was the spirit or remnant personality or some such thing of my characters brother, who he killed in ritual combat and duels every night to prove his strength again. His tribe has a superstition that if he were ever to lose to his brothers shadow, he would be taken over and become his brother, rather than himself.
It could also be your imaginary friend
I've played the multi-personality. it worked out pretty well and was actually really fun to RP. Most of the time, the party thought I was a nut case but I pulled off some pretty awesome coup de grace kills so they kept me around. lol
Noob Saibot? In my D&d? It's more likely than you think.
Oooh good reference-connection.
The comment about having a high floor, low ceiling was very insightful and useful.
it took almost 30 years but someone finally came up with a version of the fighter class that i actually want to play
one question when using Echo Avatar can you speak through your Echo?
It doesn’t specify that the echo can do any actions or really anything outside of getting to “channel” your attacks through it, get opportunity attacks, or swap places with you as a bonus action. Anything outside that scope is up to DM discretion. Thanks for watching!
Nope, you can't. It acts like a familiar from the 'find familiar' spell.
But i agree. This subclass is awesome :D
@@URGE What would your ruling be on racial abilities for echoes? For example, Half-orcs' ability to survive a KO hit with 1 hp.
@@emc246 No. Echo isn't a copy of you, it even isn't a full creature I think, more like an object. It can do only what said in the description, and nothing says it can have any other of your class/race abilities.
use your sword to cut your words into your enemies.
Nobody:
Jojo fans: "So it's a stand"
Naruto fans: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA! No it's a straight up shadowclone
@WayoftheAstralSelf
Ara ara
@FalconPunch827 Good Grief
More like Jamie Madrox aka Multiple Man from X-Men. But close.
Just imagine having your party captured, only for your Echo Knight to teleport out of the cell and steal the keys from the nearby guard who fell asleep on the job. Similar to how a Hexblade can't be stripped of their weapon or locked up (assuming misty step or the like), an Echo Knight can't really be trapped anywhere.
As long as they can see what's on the other side.
You can just put your echo outside of the cell and then swap places with your echo and go find it yourself instead of guiding the echo since it can only move 30 feet until level 10 I believe
Antimagic field would work on it despite it not being a "spell" due to it being a "magically manifested object", I would also assume anti-magical shackles that produce an antimagic field 5 feet from the user would also apply here.
Counterspell and dispel magic do not work because by the RAW the magic must be a spell with a level to be dispelled or countered. A dm could change this by saying that the echo knight is a level 3 magic summon...etc. because you get this at level three...Yada Yada, but that seems cheap to counter the entire point of a character with one spell, and I would deem that unwise.
With that said, it would be a perfect item to make a harder challenge for your players with those shackles. Prevents the easy " I teleport." Option in favor of a puzzle for them to solve.
It also would mean beholders are an extra possible challenge for later for the echo knight.
This is essentially how my DM introduced my character into the campaign I joined this year! She had my character appear to be captured by cultists, the party were about to try and rescue my character when I teleported out XD I had been gathering info on them. Such a fun subclass!
A tricker cleric and echo knight multi-class could be really fun
True dude
Dude, totally had the same idea. All these clones and echoes to confuse anyone wanting to attack
I can imagine your echo taking the hit for your characters love interest and maybe showing some way of affection with their dying breath, assuming your echo past selves have more free will when you rp them.
An echo has no free will, it isn't even a creature, it is a magical object that the echo knight can manipulate and do certain things through, for example: The echo never attacks you (the echo knight) is the one who attacks you can just choose to attack from your space or the echo's
@@thefracturedbutwhole5475 - It’s all up to flavour at that point tho. In my game, my echo is the soul of my character’s dead twin brother.
@@jesuschristonabike8878 i used to be pretty hard on rules, if it said it's an object then that's what it was.
but that is a lame way to play, having it be the soul of your dead twin is a lot cooler than a "Grey image", I have an idea for a Reborn Echo Knight character whose Echo's are more like fractured memories he can't recall, instead of an alternate version of him appearing it's the shadow of a memory of him dancing with a woman, drinking with a friend, crying over a grave etc...
Mine is essentially the embodiment of my character’s rage and depression after being revived from death. She’s heavily tied to one of our campaign’s many “bosses” so to speak, so that fueled this manifestation. We had a whole session of her essentially getting used to the ability and coming to terms with her weakness. As well as the party essentially getting used to an emotionless copy of my character hanging around pretty much indefinitely.
Also, once we hit lv.7, the DM did allow my echo the ability to speak, although very limited. Kind of like undercommon. Doesn’t make gameplay any different other than being able to (poorly) deliver messages while using Echo Avatar which in itself is pretty niche and better done by my familiar in our campaign
But overall this subclass is EXTREMELY fun to play and RP
A good multiclass option is Ancestral Guardian Barbarian. Barbarian pairs well with Fighter already. Now you can say that you summon shadows to protect allies in addition to having more attacks.
Exactly what i was thinking. Also for RP as well.
I imagine rogue would pair well with it too since i assume sneak attack would apply if u attack someone from behind with ur echo
I get where they're coming from with the rp score but I think they also overlooked the unique flavor of the subclass in general.
"Hey, umm... so has anyone else noticed Gasher's been hanging out with a weird ghost-version of himself lately?"
"Oh, yeah, it simultaneously satisfies his 2 greatest loves in life: tandem biking and not showering."
With the Sentinel feat if you have your echo in an enemy's face, you can make an opportunity attack and stop their movement from range.
On the critique of the you *can't* do more damage, I'd argue that you *can* do more damage, nothing restricts you from having your Echo flank with you or be near the target so you actually burst that target with.. A lot of attacks. Also love the flavour.
Matt Mercer said that it wouldn’t count for flanking because “it is a feature not a creature.” Your DM can allow it anyways if they choose to do so. Also, you don’t get additional attacks as your echo (outside the ability that gives 1 extra attack a couple times a day channeled through the echo), you can just choose to take your attacks from your position or the echo’s position. Definitely gives you some combat utility and a really cool subclass! Thanks for watching!
Flanking is also an optional rule in the DMG, that is also not that well balanced.
Now you're onto something when you say it can do more damage, it's just that it's not quite what you think. If you really want to get the most bang for your buck, you're gonna need Haste, and a healthy amount of Constitution. Like, 16 Con is the minimum.
Now here's the backbone of this strategy: the Unleash Incarnation feature is only limited to your Con modifier. There's no limit on how many times you can use it in a round. So, if you can take three Attack Actions, you can use this feature three times on your turn.
So, at 5th level, a spellcaster gets access to Haste. Also at 5th level, you (the Echo Knight) have one Action Surge and Extra Attack. Normally, a Hasted Fighter can squeeze out 5 attacks, because this gives them 3 Attack actions, with Extra Attacks coming in to give you 2 more attacks. If you can attack as a bonus action somehow, this goes up to 6 attacks.
Echo Fighters, though? Thanks to the fact they get 3 Attack Actions, they can use Unleash Incarnation 3 times. At LVL 5, the damage output increases to a range of 8-9 attacks you can make in a round.
Now there is the drawback that once you exhausted your uses of the feature, you're gonna need to wait a while until you can do it again.
@@burgscratch6301 That's what I was lowkey thinking excluding the haste, to boost the attacks into 5-6, with haste it becomes even more awesome. Added in the play tactic for when I get to play one :3
@@RoronoaLeftyZoro I know right? With the Echo Knight getting this many attacks at LVL 5, I can't imagine the look on a DMs face once their Echo Knight gets more attacks. x3
👌
I could imagine a scenario where the echo was a seperate entity and one point , and as a roleplay oppurtunity the echo attemps to fight you for control
oooh, how about a Warlock multiclass where the echo is your warlock patron manifesting itself?
shadow of mordor anyone?
XD
Playing an Echo Knight right now, and the options are so great. There are a lot of flavor options as far as RP, for an example my fighter just always has his out, it trails him and when people ask he just says, "Oh, that? That's my shadow" (southern drawl) as for combat I am still only third level but once I was bloodied I switched spots with my Echo (effectively disengaging as a bonus action) and continued to attack through the echo while stay out of melee range of the Bugbear.
I definitely do more damage with my battlemaster duelist, but so far I really enjoy the utility and flavor of an Echo Knight
so basically, The Echo Knight at level 7 gives you a 1000ft of scouting. Which includes flight from the 3rd level feature.
And if its safe u can teleport the 1000 feet and start again
Additional Combat Stuff: It pairs really well with Kobolds effectively removing Sunlight Sensitivity as it can work to trigger Pack Tactics. With Sentinel you can trigger it through your Echo as well :D
Additional RP: At night, this thing would just look like a shadowy figure, if used right you can use it to bait a trap.
Additional Point: Confirmed by Mercer, there is no limit to the amount of Echos you can summon. The only restriction til you get to Level 18 is one at a time.
Hope this helps someone :D
The Echo counts as an object, not a creature, so it can't trigger flanking or pack tactics.
But on the other hand, it doesn't trigger opportunity attacks and can't be targeted by some spells.
I be like Solo leveling before each fight : "Arise my echo"
I did that as a necromancer and the DM gave me the cape and all to use. If you min max necro it is insane and the dm for the sake of the party and their sanity will kill your character.
If it wasn't for the 30 feet thing, I could've seen myself pulling the scene for the new Terminator movie. The one where they're on a bridge and the exoskeleton and it's "skin" on the opposite side walking towards them
I do love the Echo Knight concept, but I feel like it doesn't really explains well what they can do out of combat. Can we just make them walk 30 ft. ahead of us to set off traps, open potentially trapped doors, that kind of stuff? Can they communicate verbally, like, to NPCs? The book doesn't say anything about their potential out-of-combat uses...
Jeremy Crawford will probably clarify a lot of this in the future, but I would think that it doesn’t really have any impact in the surrounding world outside being a conduit for your attacks. Up to DM discretion. Rule of cool usually works best ;) thanks for watching!
Yes it does, the echo is an object not a creature, does the trap specifically say a creature must activate it, if not, the echo is unaffected, otherwise it occupies its space so traps that only need to have something interact with them, like trip wires and pressure plates etc... Would be set off, it also can't open doors because it is an object, they also can not speak because they are an object, think of the echo like a cardboard cut out of you, it looks like you but it is still cardboard cut out.
The Fractured But Whole
:/ That doesn’t feel quite right. Maybe it’s because I’m projecting Stands onto how Echoes work, but I feel like they are A) under your control B) animated arcane doppelgängers. While I wouldn’t go so far as saying that they can perform the help action or pick a lock (unless you were possessing them maybe), if you can move them around and have them perform attacks with various weapons, something like opening a door should be possible.
I do wish that there was some clarification for things like if they can talk (both as normal and as an avatar), if they can carry/push things (what about if I strap a backpack to them, do the straps just fall through? Though they can’t be grappled or restrained so I guess that are sort of incorporeal), can you and your echo wield different weapons (such as you wielding a bow or net or shield while the Echo wields a Heavy melee weapon, or is it merely like a “portal” through which your attacks are transferred through), if I can target the Echo with certain spells (like can I use Thaumaturgy to make its eyes glow), etc?
@@thefracturedbutwhole5475 my character is a simic hybrid and was mostly aquatic so I gave him a endless decanter of water and said the when he summoned his echo it would rise from the decanter. So this is also a good example
Mine is essentially the embodiment of my character’s rage and depression after being revived from death. She’s heavily tied to one of our campaign’s many “bosses” so to speak, so that fueled this manifestation. We had a whole session of her essentially getting used to the ability and coming to terms with her weakness. As well as the party essentially getting used to an emotionless copy of my character hanging around pretty much indefinitely.
Also, once we hit lv.7, the DM did allow my echo the ability to speak, although very limited. Kind of like undercommon. Doesn’t make gameplay any different other than being able to (poorly) deliver messages while using Echo Avatar which in itself is pretty niche and better done by my familiar in our campaign
But that’s also something my GM and everyone else sort of homebrewed/house ruled for us as well as object interactions. It made no sense that this thing can deck you in the face for free but can’t grab a pebble off the ground or twist a doorknob. It still can’t use magic items or swing weapons because balance, but just picking up and moving things around is totally fine and valid imo. Basically just making it a weaponized Unseen Servant. Plus, this also makes the opposing Echo Knight NPC (and my character’s rival) that much more interesting.
But overall this subclass is EXTREMELY fun to play and RP
Sounds pretty cool to me. I'd like to see what one plays like. What if you did a Echo Knight / Trickster Cleric? Oh! Or what about Polearm Master with your Echo?
I secretly hoping Jester from critical dips 3 for echo knight just to see this.
@@arandomcheese that would be awesome, but can you imagine the wild things that Jester would do as lvl 20 cleric, like divine intervention?
@@rodrigocampos2465 Totally. I see a lot dicks suddenly growing out of walls.
@@arandomcheese I don't know anything about Jester from Critical Roll, but I support any character who wants to make dicks grow out of walls.
My one party member used this, and we used the teleport swop a lot to spy on enemies without triggering initiative.
You could role play your Echo Knight as a wraith Knight and the Echos are like wraith copies of said Wraith Knight.
Or have it flavored Street Fighter Alpha 3's Vism style.
Or extra flavor, give em the Hollow One Supernatural Gift. BOOM the Echos are Hollows made from fragments of your former life.
Currently running a Warforged Echo Knight/Assassin. Ranged build. I am enjoying it immensely.
What's cool is you guys gave it a 4.5 without even considering archery. I use mine to hide behind a tree or large stone and then pop out to see the battlefield and get my attacks. Then take cover again. You can do this all you want from a great point of attack. Yes any class can do this, but the power of being able to keep a character out that can soak up hits while not costing you anything but a bonus action is tremendous. If someone manages to get to you you can create your echo 15 feet behind it so you don't have disadvantages on the attacks. Or you can teleport away without provoking opportunity attacks. This is the best fighter class. Easily.
I love this class multi-classed with the ancestral guardian Barbarian. A Barb with potentially 6 attacks in one turn at level 9, all reckless, AND you can impose disadvantage on any creature on the battlefield on anyone other than you... such great utility and damage.
Even better: your echo can move in ANY direction and isn't hindered by difficult terrain so you could make it fly up or over a gap to hit a flying creature.
Also, since it's not a creature, it is immune to certain AOE spells since those only Target creatures.
With the Rp value, i think it should be higher by the whole nature of WHAT the echo is, now I think this is more for the DM to decide and then have the player(s) have to react to, how the echo works mechanically, is its a potential you from another timeline that never was, so it could be from just before when you decided to go left instead of right and now this other you found this nice shiny sword.... OR there is a nice shiny sword sticking through its abdomen OR this other you actually DID pick a card from the deck of many things and then you have a demon echo trying to fight it, OR this other you had just confessed its love to another party member and had been turned down and is very sad and keeps looking daggers at this other party member and refuses to protect him/her or at least resists a bit
I really want to play this class in a homebrew setting, reflavoring it as a tribal desert warrior who summons sand soldiers. (kind of similar to Azir from League of Legends) I love the game mechanics! The alternate timeline and potentiality lore doesn't appeal to me at all though.
It didn't appear to me either. The teleportation part is definitely the coolest.
You know what, this subclass when multiclass into rogue, is perfect for Zed. The echo is basically his Living Shadow, extending his attack range and all that jazz.
Not to mention the echo would also allows you to land Sneak Attack reliably on enemies every round.
I had the same exact idea.
I love this I'm totally doing a Echo Knight/Druid of the Moon Tiefling with Glaslia and Rakshasa halfbreed (Homebrew Chatacter). Using the Echo gained from a RP processing of hellish dream training to obtain the use. Use Echo knight to level 8 obtain sentinel, savage attacker, and charger, then multiclass to Druid Circle of the Moon straight on to level 10 with 2 gained feats of mage slayer and war caster, when back to Echo Knight for the remaining amount maybe. Doing a globe troughting homebrew to get there which should be crazy fun.
I play an echo knight in one of my Campaigns and in the game my PC woke up chained to the floor in a cage I manifested an echo out of the cage then body swapped 👌👌
I want to make a hill dwarf barbarian path of ancentral guardians and take a 3 level dip into echo knight - and flavour the echo as my ancestors joining in the fight.
Any Monk + Echo Knight = Chaos on the battlefield. I'll just give a single example. The DM has set up 2 casters or ranged attacker in the enemy backfield that are each 20ft apart from each other. Got an Echo Monk? No problem, just send yourself after one and you Echo after the other and Stunning Strike both of them! Granted this isn't something you'd be able to pull off right away, you'd have to be at least 5 Monk / 3 Echo for that particular combination of abilities to come on line but it's still awesome. Then start adding in feats like Mobile or Sentinel and some of the extra class/subclass features depending on how you are leveling your character and things can get pretty wild.
I would house rule that the echo is indistinguishable from you so then enemy never knows witch one your are if you manage to come out of hiding or you and an echo change place while hiding to confuse the enemy that would be amazing
This is rad! Why am I just now hearing if this?!?!
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@@URGE way ahead of you guys. I've already got a new character made with this subclass, though I did multi class a bit. Excited to see how that works out.
this seems like one of the great pairings one could do with rogue/fighter, as the espionage potential aspect of the echo seems really cool with stealth and perhaps an arcane trickster
great video guys :)
Need to be a 7th lvl Echo fighter to get the long range needed though :/
Keep your echo at the max range of 30ft on each turn, when needed, move your Echo 30ft out of range on your turn, swap places for -15ft and your bonus action, then dash for a total distance of 90ft of movement.
Just had a deliciously fun idea. Either shield master or Martial adept feat. Shield-master; shove it five feet into your shadow and then next turn shove it again. Martial adept shove it 15 feet and then another 15 feet.
Hmm...I could see this being great fun to play. The base fighter class can sometimes be a bit stale, so adding this on gives a little more utility, a few more options and a huge amount of rp fun times.
Warforged echo fighter and the echo version is a hologram or something idk ^_^
Ain't no jail, can hold my echo in.
Basically Noob Saibot from MK. I can dig it.
Love the videos. I just got back into dnd and your videos are great. Btw, love the UK hat!
After 4 months of playing this class. Can confirm, BROKEN. If built right and poisons are used the damage potential is just.....unfair.....
Currently playing a echo knight love it
I can see the value and potential in this class. However, I personally don't understand the hype surrounding this class. Many people are gushing and saying that this is the best fighter class EVER, but now that I finally learned about it I'm honestly underwhelmed. Again, I can see the value in it but nothing really makes me go WOW.
I play a Kobold Echo knight and pack tactics is INSANE with the echo
Omg if you multiclassed echo knight with trickery cleric! You could have the echo out then use mirropr image on the echo and summon the invoke duplicity!!
The 3 mirror images would help keep the echo alive then having illusion duplicate within 5ft of target would give both of you advantage on attacks!
the thing I didn't hear you bring up is that you can flank a target with your own echo. Effectively increasing damage!
You can't, it is not a creature, it counts as an object, it does not trigger flanking.
A rogue Echo knight. Use the Echo to grapple or manifest it behind a target to get flanking meaning advantage, and sneak attack
None of it would work. Echo can't grapple, and it is not a creature, just the effect of the ability, so it won't give nor flanking advantage, nor "ally within 5ft" Sneak attack condition.
Kinda curious if it would work with polearm master and sentinel. Make a wall standing 10ft apart from your echo.
This is what Matt Mercer said about sentinel and pole arm master:”Sentinel WOULD function, as you are still the source of the opp attack. Polearm Master would not, as that feature of the Echo specifies moving AWAY from you.” Thanks for watching!
URGE TV Aw man, of Only we could use polearm master and tunnel fighter for double the controlled area!
This is so cool
What nobody talks about is the rp value of instantly teleporting 15 feet through a jail cell. 15 feet through a glass window, 15 feet in a forest from behind one tree to another and potentially having your echo be a distraction as it can move on your turn (out of combat can work too) and if you really wanna cheese it you can teleport from rooftop to rooftop or from the ground to the top of a 15 foot ladder, you can also make another rp bonus of instead of dodging an attack you simply teleport to your echo, and not to mention that this ability is FREE and takes about (correct me if Im wrong) a second to do since a turn is about 6 seconds long, meaning in an rp context.....you can in theory teleport 15 feet in the air every second as a Echo Knight as a bonus action....the description says Unoccupied space so that's how I take it. Now yes maybe the Dm wont allow this fighter cantrip of a subclass feat be a free teleport that suddenly makes you feel like you drank a whole case of redbull and got you 30 pairs of wings(yes, pairs) but the rest of what I said is within the rules of the ability as it is 15 feet unoccupied of what you can SEE within 15 feet of you, one more thing.....you cannot get opportunity attacked when you teleport to your echo and even if it were by the Dm that you were basically being attacked at that moment it is magically swapped and the thing is the hit would have to deal with the Echo AC and and new position. This is my overall breakdown of that one specific ability in terms of how it would function in a day to day game. Thank you for reading.
Combat is not all about damage sheesh... combat is a 5 for this one.... the fighter already has a lot of damage..and this gives an extra attack from your echo, so when you have two can they both attack and can you teleport to both?
So a Peter Pan shadow that’s ACTUALLY helpful? I love it. That’d be kinda funny to RP. The player is irresponsible and tries to avoid the consequences only to have his literal shadow go “no no no, we are FIXING this. We are NOT betraying them”. Or perhaps it’s like a Persona of your confident side that’s chaotic vs your meek lawful side.
Echos can make opportunity attacks. Pole arm master/sentinel here i come. If the dm allows for unearthed arcana grabbing tunnel fighter fighting style and I'm in heaven.
This is what Matt Mercer said about sentinel and pole arm master:”Sentinel WOULD function, as you are still the source of the opp attack. Polearm Master would not, as that feature of the Echo specifies moving AWAY from you.” Thanks for watching!
Fun video. Good review. And.. GO CATS!
This sounds like it would be awesome to play
so it’s the same type of stand as star platinum...
Playing a Tank with an Archer Echo would be fun. Then just have the Sentinel feat.
So I've not seen anyone get excited by this fact. The echo can attack up to 5 times, so if you use an action surge at level 20. You would have two echoes that can attack 5 times each plus your 8 attacks. That's 18 attacks and it isn't limited to only once per attack as per the verbiage.
On top of that your Echos are you I don't see any ruling that feats do not apply to the Echoes. So though some abusive mechanics would be using a polearm with the Echo. Tunnel fighter UA feat, and Sentinel. Easily done by level 5 with variant human.
I think you’re misunderstanding the Echo ability. It says “When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space OR the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.” That would mean that you don’t get extra attacks from your echoes, you just get to choose if your attacks come from your location or the echo location. For example, you have 4 attacks and you stand next to a goblin and your echo is next to a wolf. You could hit the goblin with 3 attacks and the echo hits the wolf for 1 for a total of 4 attacks or a different option is you hit goblin 2 times and echo hits wolf 2 times etc. Hope that makes sense and thanks for watching!
@@URGE URGE TV Thanks for the reply! I followed the part about manifest echo I was specifically talking about the Unleashed Incarnation feature. "Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo's position." Meaning an extra attack per usage of that feature. If you have 20 CON you would be able to use this 5 times. After re-reading legion of one I was mistaken it specifically states INSTEAD of the other echo. By my math though it still means you could action surge at level 11 and attack 6 times and then have your echo attack 5 times using the unleashed incarnation feature totaling 11 in attacks in a single turn.
@@xandermichael836 Having multiple attacks doesn't mean you have multiple actions. When you have multiattack, you're still only using one action per turn. So even though you can make 3 attacks during a normal turn at level 11, you're still only using one action. Unleash incarnation only adds one additional echo attack per action. At level 11 you're getting 4 attacks total per action, and with an action surge, you're getting 8.
@@lisalefevre3 I must not have explained this properly or something.
Per turn
You can attack 4 times as a level 20 fighter
With action surge you can use another attack action allowing 4 additional attacks
With the class feature your echo can attack up to 5 times if your CON is 20.
Therefore you as a player can attack 13 times in one turn.
(I originally thought it was 18 because I thought each echo got this option at level 18, but it's an either or kind of attack they slip the word in the middle of the sentence)
Finally I can be Virgil
I've seen a lot of people mention that you can flank with your echo; this is unfortunately not true as the echo is an object and not a creature. HOWEVER this isn't necessarily a bad thing either since you can take advantage of this if you multi class into swashbuckler. The echo will not interfere with rackish audacity. Also, if you are a fighter using a shield with the protector fighting style, could you use your shield to impose disadvantage on attacks against your echo since its wording states "target" and not creature or ally?
Would this make kobold one of the strongest races ever? Assuming our precious DMS allow use a pair of sunglasses?
what? how would it be one of the strongest races?
Super! Smash! Brothers!!
Does the echo have any vertical movement?. Meaning can you place it on top of a wall and then teleport on top of the wall? If it does have vertical movement can you use the teleportation to fly in a way
It has no movement speed, it only states you can move it, so it has no limitations to being on the ground, make you echo fly my boy. (This was confirmed by Jeremy Crawford)
Technically you could get to the top of a 60' ft wall with the teleport if you did it in two turns.
You guys said it gave no bonus damage, dosnt it give you an extra attack as a bonus action a few times pr day? An extra attack pr round is a bonus :)
You can opportunity attack from the echo.
This mixed with rouge = most excellent cat burglar
And can the echos get sneak attacks?
Ok so maybe *this* is the class for a displacer beast character.
Echo Knight, way of the astral self monk, shadow sorcerer multiclass? He's got to have Mage Hand for rp obviously or I'd skip the caster levels. He's so strong racially I don't have to double down so hard on offense and shadow sorcerer has some highly flavorful stuff.
could you start the turn with a long bow or something, create an echo, and change weapon, so you'd have an echo with a ranged weapon to cover ranged options and you yourself cover melee options?
As far as I understood, no, the Echo does have items, it just "teleports" your attack to his position, so it just copies what you are currently using basically, but who knows, maybe the DM would allow for the echo to be a copy of you instead of just an energy, and he could do things independently from you like using different weapons.
@@phelps6205 I've read the features now, and it states specifically that the manifestation makes a melee attack, so even if you are rocking a bow it can't do a ranged attack.
I believe the melee attack requirement is for when the echo does an opportunity attack. Regular attacks can be ranged.
great i love your videos, after this can you cover the UA subclasses
The plan for now is to cover all the official subclasses first then move on to the UA subclasses. Thanks for watching!
So we added stands to D&D? A lot of the spells are very stand like too.
Omg Matt Mercer created leblanc from LoL as a fighter haha
More like zed lol
Not awful but honestly its versatility is limited, and is good in pretty niche RP scenarios. It's super utility based, id still argue EK is the fighter subclass that allows for some all rounding in general and let's fighters be more than "i hit things" class.
So can your echo use your attacks while you are invisible?
Kind of a gray area it seems, but it is worded as
“When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack” And Invisibility says “The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell.” Up to DM on that one, or just have your caster use greater invisibility ;) thanks for watching!
@@URGE what about if you're just hidden? Maybe a Goblin fighter?
Also can you use the level 7 ability to go 1000ft away from you and then Teleport and switch places? If not, what's the maximum you can do on your turn with your movement? Seems like if you had a 45ft speed you could move 30ft then Teleport 30ft?
We thought about the teleport to switch places with the Avatar as well and I think they may not have meant for that to be possible though it seems (as it is written) to be able to use the teleport. Normally It does only take 15 movement and the use of your bonus action to teleport, so if you had a race or feat that gave additional movement speed it would allow you to move further. Also, it says the echo disappears at the End of your turn, so you could move 15 and teleport (then at the end of your turn it would go away if you were more than 30 feat away). With it being new, I’m guessing these clarifications will be made soon. Until then, it’s up to DM discretion.
@@URGE given that it doesn't say 'in combat' as it does for the Tabaxi's Feline Agility you could use it out of combat to zip around like a Shadow Monk but in any light and at level 3 so a dip into Fighter becomes appealing for a variety of other classes.
If you are 30 feet from your echo, you could swap places and then move 15 feet to move 45 feet total, but you'll lose your echo intentionally.
If you were already 30 ft. from your echo and then moved it an additional 30 before telepirting and moving 15 ft you effectively mov 75 ft.
So I think this is up to DM discretion could you in theory some in your echo at the other side of a hostile creature as a bonus action and then roll to hit with the flanking rule if your DM allows it
And also thanks to auto correct, could your echo perform the health action, so you give yourself advantage anyways?
Can the echo be used as a more advanced mage hand such as lifting objects and interacting with environment?
And... Is it incorporeal? Can you just mentally move it past a wall or door and then switch places with it? It's an image... That suggests an illusion?
It seems to have some physicality to it so I’d probably say it wouldn’t be able to pass through objects, but with it just being released yesterday I’m sure they will clarify a lot of these questions.
doubt it. it occupies it's space, so that suggests not being able to move through solid objects
I don't think so, but it *is* immune to all conditions. This means it can get through barriers that paralyze, petrify, or restrain people.
Also, you can summon it within 15ft of you. I haven't seen the exact wording to know if it forbids it, but if it doesn't you can just summon it on the other side of the wall and switch places with it. No incorporeality needed.
*Note: As it is immune to all conditions, it is also immune to being invisible. Do not attempt to turn it invisible when sneaking, just unsummon it.
@@normal6483 you can't summon it on the other side of a wall, because you need to see the space where you summon it to.
now in case of a door.. if you cann look through the keyhole, that might be a thing
In my opinion, this subclass is actually TOO powerful until about level 10. I'll explain: the Sentinel feat alone makes your fighter's reach a major control zone. Giving this to an EK is crazy strong, because the enemies have little chance to make it through your self-imposed phalanx zone, and nothing dictates that you have to put the echo on the same ground level as you, so even flyers get the grill. Heaven forbid that fighter also gets Polearm Mastery, which causes the fighter to dominate the battlefield entirely. ONE EK plus one Druid or Wizard creates a control meatgrinder that few equal-level creatures can threaten. Next, any EK with the Charger feat can ALWAYS find an angle to run that 10 ft. from, and a Great Weapon Master with that feat can be swinging a +15 damage bonus (at disadvantage, sure, but the echo can always slam into the back of the target the EK is facing down, or an ally is facing down to effectively negate the -5 with advantage). If you're playing an archery fighting style, the enemies can hardly ever take cover from your shots, especially if you manifest the echo with a high-ground battlefield advantage. Then, you can just hide or run around all day, letting your echo take every single potshot while you do whatever. If it gets shot down, you just make another. Lather, rinse, repeat. Lastly, and maybe most importantly as to why I don't allow it at my table is the immunity to all conditions that the echo is bestowed. A VAST majority of enemies in D&D are threatening not for the damage they deal per se, but for the dangerous conditions they inflict, like poison, petrification, exhaustion, et al. An EK never has to worry about those Gorgons, never frets about poisonous Scorpions, never bats a lash about fighting a Mummy. Seriously! Make ANY other fighter immune to all conditions, even if it's a feature they can engage a limited number of times per day, and you have a very strong fighter subclass. Protection style EKs can always defend the frontline AND the backline, and that's absolutely ridiculous. All of that is just what you can do from level 3. From level 7, you have an effective familiar scout with the ability to teleport swap you into its space. That's stupidly strong, and all the EK needs is stealth or invisibility to be a more valid scout than a Scout. Not cool. Shadow Martyr wastes an enemy's attack completely, and every Prot fighter on earth wishes they were that cool. The Parry maneuver doesn't even negate a whole attack so easily (sure, you can Parry 4 times to the 1 SM use). Reclaim Potential is stupefying on a class that already has Second Wind. Go ahead, DMs, throw everything you've got at this fighter. You're going to HAVE to, and then the party will wonder why every fight looks like "murder the man with the ball" while your EK has the ball. I don't think I need to explain why having two echoes is not better. They unbalance the game heavily, I'm convinced they weren't playtested by anyone who played a fighter in 5e before, and I refuse to allow them at my table unless we're playing at starter level 10 or so.
Lots of said features won't work. Echo can do only things said in the description, no other effects, such as Protection fighting style, won't work. Only things that are tied to your attack will work, such as Sentinel's reducing movement to 0 (but not attack the attacking enemy). Also, the Echo isn't a creature, so it won't give you a flanking bonus even if you are playing with this rule.
Also, I doubt you can attack enemies you don't see even if Echo can see them, and Echo can be summoned only in 30 ft from you, so it won't be much change to how monsters can reach you.
Link's Shadow. Nuff said.
I don’t know if you guys were aware, but echos can technically fly.
How would this Fighter subclass interact with the Sentinel feat?
This is what Matt Mercer said about sentinel and pole arm master:”Sentinel WOULD function, as you are still the source of the opp attack. Polearm Master would not, as that feature of the Echo specifies moving AWAY from you.” Thanks for watching!
I'm playing an echo knight in my current campaign and this helps clear up some confusion that we had
Hmm ... can the echo influence the flanking rule? Giving advantage?
Hmmm does this mean that if you're working with your echo on one side and you on the other, it counts as flanking?
It does not. It functions similarly to something like spiritual weapon and not as a creature so similar rules apply. Thanks for watching!
Try echo fighter/swashbuckler multiclass
So how does ranged combat work? Do you lose a shot arrow or do I summon them out of thin air?
Wouldn't the echo be good for checking for traps?
I don’t think i caught it, but is the echo limited only to melee attacks? I can just imagine a firing squad of longbows.
This is how it is worded: “
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.” So, you could do that, but remember you have to end your turn within 30 feet or it goes away so you really aren’t changing what you could hit if you just fired all the arrows from your position unless your echo could see into another room or something... thanks for watching!
@@URGE So doing a Gloom Stalker dip could make things interesting, and confusing for your enemies :D
@@URGE Maybe not with a longbow, but an extra 30ft of range on a hand crossbow would not be insignificant, especially if you haven't taken Sharpshooter (yet).
@@URGE what about with the 7th lvl ability, which makes you see through the echo's eyes and change the range limit from 30ft to 1000ft, could that be used to make the echo a sniper that fights from 60ft in the air?
If the echo disappears at the end of your turn you simply use your bonus action on your next turn to recreate it. You're not limited to how many times you can create one.
Wonder. If your a 6 level Sheppard Druid. And summon your exho. Would it get the boost from the druid ability?
I would say no because the Shepherd ability specifically says fey and beast summons which your echo would not be. DM can of course override :) thanks for watching!
@@URGE well, not so fast. You are a druid. So wildshape into a beast. And then summon your echo. ..... but yea. DM call really. Had the same idea for a artillerist druid ... summon the turret. And boosted by the druid ability.
@@URGE tho. A swarmkeeper ranger/shepherd druid would be a mean combo.
It’s like sasuke when he gets the rinnegan, just swap places
With shadow martyr, can you throw the echo in front of yourself?
As written, I would say no. The reason being it says “an attack directed at ANOTHER creature” and not “A creature.” Hope that makes sense. You can always ask your DM on their ruling, but usually this wording doesn’t allow you to target yourself. Thanks for watching!
Echo fighter lvl x + Rogue lvl 1 = self sneak attack setup?
The echo doesn’t count as a creature. It functions similarly to something like the Spiritual Weapon spell. Thanks for watching!
Yo are you a UK fan or do you live in kentucky?
Does it create a flanked condition?
Would this work well combined with rogue to swap with your echo that is behind cover and regain sneak attack?
So could you mix this with monk