I actually did know know this rule until you commented on it in this video. Wow! PHB 177: “If your Constitution modifier changes, your hit point maximum changes as well, as though you had the new modifier from 1st level.”
Absolutely! I think a lot of folks don't realize this. It's kinda buried in the PHB. But yeah, I would always consider a Feat or ASI that boosted CON if I thought my character could use more HP.
note - the echo doesn't disappear until the end of your turn if it moves outside of 30 ft, so if you move it outside of 30 ft on your turn you can still make your attack from there, it'll just disappear after that turn
Sentinel with an Echo Knight seems fun. If the echo is a manifestation of you then it should share your feats as well. This gives you battlefield control on two fronts. As a DM my way is a clever use of mechanics so long as they makes sense I allow at the table.
I read the rules as saying that the echo is destroyed if it is outside of 30 feet at the end of your turn. Not that it can’t ever go beyond 30 feet of you.
I keep looking at the races, but I keep coming back to Mountain Dwarf. +2 Strength & +2 Constitution....take ability score increase at Level 4 and you have 18s in both.
Thank you Evelynn! In my more recent builds I steered away from including the backstory of the character because my videos were getting long and folks were skipping them entirely. I do plan on writing more backstories for these character builds, so I'll probably put them on my website in written form at some point. Also, welcome to the channel! Great to have you here. :-)
i was thinking about a Simic hybrid Echo knight barbarian. This way you can abuse the Echo and Manta glide. Have your Echo move 60 feet straight up then you can glide for 120 feet. I would probably ditch Heavy armor for Medium cause teleporting is the main goal of this character.
I am looking into an Echo Knight 3/ Barbarian 2 for a campaign starting at 5th level using a Variant Human with +1 STR & +1 CON & Sentinel feat. If the Echo can't manipulate objects or set off traps, I think the utility outside of combat becomes severely limited for these characters. But I love the idea of getting locked in a prison, manifesting an echo in the hallway, and {poof} teleport to freedom.
Indeed biojay, that does sound like a fun scenario. I think the longer an Echo Knight PC is played, the more shenanigans that can be discovered. Such an amazing ability. Thank you for watching. Cheers!
Absolutely! Great point. If I was playing in a campaign long term with an Echo Knight, one of my character's goals would be to seek out armor such as this.
Wow! :O I cant wait to see you play this! The Echo Knight gives me a two man army vibe and can easily help even the numbers during encounters! Having a PC playing this and another with a Rune Knight can make quite the fearsome party! As for having the echo do things besides attacking hmmm I would prob rule it as kinda of like the Mage Hand cantrip so that as long as its not a magical item or a magical imbued item then no harm done :) I really like this one, but I am curious...what was the reason behind the pick of Earth Genasi? :P I wonder if you will make a character build in the future once Theros releases!
Awww yeah, thank you my friend. I would love to see an Echo / Rune Knight team up... heck, throw in an Eldritch Knight. An entire game of Knights! That would be awesome. Um, Earth Genasi... two reasons. One. the stats. Two... IN Explorer's Guide to Wildemount they discuss how the Genasi are a coveted recruit of the Kryn Dynasty. :) And, absolutely. You know for sure that I will make at least one Theros character, lol.
Seeing as though Dex is the super-stat of 5E, it seems to make more sense (in the long run) to make the EK a Dex fighter rather than a traditional strength fighter. In line with the 7th level ability Echo Avatar, taking the Keen Mind feat at level 4 seems to be solid here. While the buff to INT might not be per sé useful (other than maybe making your INT a 10 if it's a 9), what is useful is the photographic memory aspect of it. This can make your echo an ideal scout that you can use over and over again until you fully scout out a BBEG's dungeon. Then, when it's taken in conjunction with the Keen Mind feat (and prof. in Cartographer's Tools if you have it), you can then literally draw up a perfect map of a given dungeon/area from relative safety, as well as coordinate a battleplan with your team to defeat the dungeon while risking minimal losses. It should also be mentioned that while Dex fighters might not do as much raw damage as a traditional Strength based fighter, they do get access to both ranged and finesse weapons which makes them dangerous either at range or up close. Finally, in terms of going the full 20, the focus on Dex allows the PC to multiclass dip into Rogue, if desired. While taking 2 levels in Rogue isn't necessarily advisable (since Cunning Action competes with Manifest Echo), taking 1 level gives you some of the Rogue's skill set at the cost of an extra attack at level 20; namely, one skill from the Rogue class's skill list (that you don't already have), thieves' tools prof., Skill Expertise (Stealth) and Thieves' Cant. This can make you an effective back-up Rogue at the very worst, and at best, an effective evasion specialist and a de facto infiltrator. If I were using a variant human with this build, I'd could see going 3 levels of Rogue on the top end in order to pick up either the Scout, Swashbuckler, or Soulknife subclass. (Probably the Soulknife for its abilities.) But I wouldn't pick up more than 3 levels going this route. If I were any other race other than variant human, I'd probably only pick up 1 level from Rogue.
Lots to unpack here. All of it is good, of course. I really dig your take on this class. Especially the idea of multiclassing and the Cartographer's Tool. Sounds like a fun character to play for sure. And, I do have to agree. It really does seem like DEX is a super stat of 5E. STR really doesn't even come close with regards to diversity in skills and uses. Thank you for chiming in Simon!
@@WallyDM, no problem. I've noticed that, when it comes to martial combat, Dex is the Superstat. But when it comes to spellcasting and interacting with the world, Charisma seems to be the superstat, with Int. and Wis. competing for table scraps. It's kind of hard to really do a solid Cleric/Druid multiclass unless you're a druid of Melikki, or of some similar variant, where you're allowed and encouraged to wear metal armor... Unless the DM is chill re. druids using metal armor in their world (at which point, go for it). Sure, Circle of the Moon Druid is great for wild-shape tanking, but you only have so many wildshapes at the end of the day. On the other hand, the Wizard/Artificer is also a bit hard to pull off since most Wizards will need to go at least 3 levels in Artificer in order to gain access to solid armor proficiencies, which can be problematic depending on how many Wizard levels you're actually going. (Depending on your Wiz. school, both your capstone and your ASI's could be affected.)
Sorry to monopolize the comments. As a DM, I would allow an Echo Knight to manipulate things with an Echo Avatar. Maybe utilize the rules for Unseen Servant in this regard. You left out a *lot* of possibilities for using an Echo Avatar for exploration. You could have them check for traps, for example. If they have material substance enough to attack and manipulate objects then this should be reasonable.
Ah, monopolize away! I love answering. :) Unseen Servant... great idea on this! Also, yeah, wow... traps is another great use... there are a ton of possibilities for sure... if the DM allows us, of course, lol.
I would so use the echo as a scout, see where the enemy is then decide how to act. Or.... are you able to manifest it the other side of a locked door?...... Maybe if that door had a window....
Don't forget the Echo Avatar could be used to get to high places. it's classed as an object not a creature (Flight), (think of it as conjured phantom sword that fights with you). Echo Knight leaves alot for DM discretion.
Great question Dave... I wasn't sure, so I did some digging. Found this answer online and I like it. I would go by this: "An Echo knight lets you attack from either your space or your echo’s, not both. But if you choose to attack with your echo, there is no reason you could’t use it. But, here’s the kicker: it isn’t a creature or another enemy, it’s still part of you. So you can’t gain the ability to use Sneak Attack for free with it just because you and the echo are within 5’ of the enemy." Hope this helps!
@Alan Schaub I would like to do at least one of them, for sure. I was leaning towards the Chronurgist, but either one could work. Which one do you like better?
Wally D.M. I think the Chronurgist has been subclass features and would be more fun to play for me, personally. The Graviturgist has some powerful spells, though.
Hey there, great question! Thank you for asking it. While always open to DM Interpretation, I would say that No, the echo does not help with regards to Flanking. The Echo is neither an ally or a creature. It is an ability. But... just to be on the safe side, I searched the internet and found Mathew Mercer's response to a tweet stating that the Echo does not trigger Flanking. Hope this helps! Mar 17, 2020 Twitter Question: would an echo knight's echo provide flanking advantage? Matthew Mercer @matthewmercer: As the echo is technically not an “ally”, but a feature, it would not grant a flanking bonus, should you use the rule
If I use Echo Avatar can I still use a bonus action to switch places with my Echo? Like if I’m over encumbered could I send my Echo home and teleport into its space?
That would be amazing if we could Jinx! But unfortunately, we cannot. Jeremy Crawford has officially stated that the Echo Avatar ability can only be used to scout with. Here is the link to his twitter: twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242199682534608896 Hope this helps!
Wally D.M. That’s fair, it’s be pretty wild if you could just teleport up to 1000 feet every 10 minutes starting at 7th level. That being said they really should have had it in the book.
Ah, yep. Absolutely. 10 is a +0... I think I considered having a 12 CHA at one point, but changed my mind. Resulting in the +1 modifier not being adjusted. Great catch on this. I hope you enjoyed the video! :)
Ah, yep. Absolutely. 10 is a +0... I think I considered having a 12 CHA at one point, but changed my mind. Resulting in the +1 modifier not being adjusted. Great catch on this. I hope you enjoyed the video! :)
"if your dm allows" is the laziest answer to any dnd question. yeah. you can do ANYTHING you dm allows....can you be a halfling carrying a gargantuan greatsword? if your dm allows..... can you wish for a million wishes? if your dm allows.... can you have a spaceship and hunt down and kill the gods? if your dm allows..... i hate it when people like mercer are asked "what does this rule as written mean? does it mean this or that? because it's not entirely clear" and they refuse to give a straight answer. of course ANYTHING can be overridden by the dm.....but that wasnt the question. it was about rules as written. and those should be clear and unequivocal.
Hi Joe! The Echo Knight is not in the Players Handbook. It is in the new D&D Book: Explorer's Guide to Wildemount. I don't know much about Roll20, but it will probably be a separate package.
Wally D.M. I have still finishing watching the video. Does this build include the Sentinel feat? It seems like that could be really good on an Echo Knight!
@@alanschaub147 The Sentinel Feat would be really good! I left that up for the viewers to decide. I went the boring route and cranked up CON to 20 and STR to 18, but I would not hesitate pulling the trigger on a feat at one point. There are so many good feats that go with this subclass, for sure!
I actually did know know this rule until you commented on it in this video. Wow!
PHB 177:
“If your Constitution modifier changes, your hit point maximum changes as well, as though you had the new modifier from 1st level.”
Absolutely! I think a lot of folks don't realize this. It's kinda buried in the PHB. But yeah, I would always consider a Feat or ASI that boosted CON if I thought my character could use more HP.
note - the echo doesn't disappear until the end of your turn if it moves outside of 30 ft, so if you move it outside of 30 ft on your turn you can still make your attack from there, it'll just disappear after that turn
Ah, great point R F K. This tactic could definitely come in handy. Thank you for mentioning this. Cheers!
Sentinel with an Echo Knight seems fun. If the echo is a manifestation of you then it should share your feats as well. This gives you battlefield control on two fronts.
As a DM my way is a clever use of mechanics so long as they makes sense I allow at the table.
Great takes on this! And absolutely, the Sentinel feat would be super cool. I almost picked it over the ASI.
I read the rules as saying that the echo is destroyed if it is outside of 30 feet at the end of your turn. Not that it can’t ever go beyond 30 feet of you.
Ah, yes... you are correct! This makes our Echo even better. Glad you pointed this out. :)
I keep looking at the races, but I keep coming back to Mountain Dwarf. +2 Strength & +2 Constitution....take ability score increase at Level 4 and you have 18s in both.
Oh nice, I forget that the Mountain Dwarf gets the +2 in both of those stats. Great choice!
really cool that it had a story along with a cool build
Also nonbinary character! props
Thank you Evelynn! In my more recent builds I steered away from including the backstory of the character because my videos were getting long and folks were skipping them entirely. I do plan on writing more backstories for these character builds, so I'll probably put them on my website in written form at some point. Also, welcome to the channel! Great to have you here. :-)
Ah, thank you! :-)
i was thinking about a Simic hybrid Echo knight barbarian. This way you can abuse the Echo and Manta glide. Have your Echo move 60 feet straight up then you can glide for 120 feet. I would probably ditch Heavy armor for Medium cause teleporting is the main goal of this character.
Ooooh the Simic. Now that is interesting. I dig it!
I am looking into an Echo Knight 3/ Barbarian 2 for a campaign starting at 5th level using a Variant Human with +1 STR & +1 CON & Sentinel feat. If the Echo can't manipulate objects or set off traps, I think the utility outside of combat becomes severely limited for these characters. But I love the idea of getting locked in a prison, manifesting an echo in the hallway, and {poof} teleport to freedom.
Indeed biojay, that does sound like a fun scenario. I think the longer an Echo Knight PC is played, the more shenanigans that can be discovered. Such an amazing ability. Thank you for watching. Cheers!
Some mithral armour would really help you there as it would get rid of the disadvantage on stealth.
Absolutely! Great point. If I was playing in a campaign long term with an Echo Knight, one of my character's goals would be to seek out armor such as this.
Wow! :O I cant wait to see you play this!
The Echo Knight gives me a two man army vibe and can easily help even the numbers during encounters! Having a PC playing this and another with a Rune Knight can make quite the fearsome party!
As for having the echo do things besides attacking hmmm I would prob rule it as kinda of like the Mage Hand cantrip so that as long as its not a magical item or a magical imbued item then no harm done :)
I really like this one, but I am curious...what was the reason behind the pick of Earth Genasi? :P
I wonder if you will make a character build in the future once Theros releases!
Awww yeah, thank you my friend. I would love to see an Echo / Rune Knight team up... heck, throw in an Eldritch Knight. An entire game of Knights! That would be awesome. Um, Earth Genasi... two reasons. One. the stats. Two... IN Explorer's Guide to Wildemount they discuss how the Genasi are a coveted recruit of the Kryn Dynasty. :)
And, absolutely. You know for sure that I will make at least one Theros character, lol.
Seeing as though Dex is the super-stat of 5E, it seems to make more sense (in the long run) to make the EK a Dex fighter rather than a traditional strength fighter.
In line with the 7th level ability Echo Avatar, taking the Keen Mind feat at level 4 seems to be solid here. While the buff to INT might not be per sé useful (other than maybe making your INT a 10 if it's a 9), what is useful is the photographic memory aspect of it. This can make your echo an ideal scout that you can use over and over again until you fully scout out a BBEG's dungeon. Then, when it's taken in conjunction with the Keen Mind feat (and prof. in Cartographer's Tools if you have it), you can then literally draw up a perfect map of a given dungeon/area from relative safety, as well as coordinate a battleplan with your team to defeat the dungeon while risking minimal losses.
It should also be mentioned that while Dex fighters might not do as much raw damage as a traditional Strength based fighter, they do get access to both ranged and finesse weapons which makes them dangerous either at range or up close.
Finally, in terms of going the full 20, the focus on Dex allows the PC to multiclass dip into Rogue, if desired. While taking 2 levels in Rogue isn't necessarily advisable (since Cunning Action competes with Manifest Echo), taking 1 level gives you some of the Rogue's skill set at the cost of an extra attack at level 20; namely, one skill from the Rogue class's skill list (that you don't already have), thieves' tools prof., Skill Expertise (Stealth) and Thieves' Cant. This can make you an effective back-up Rogue at the very worst, and at best, an effective evasion specialist and a de facto infiltrator.
If I were using a variant human with this build, I'd could see going 3 levels of Rogue on the top end in order to pick up either the Scout, Swashbuckler, or Soulknife subclass. (Probably the Soulknife for its abilities.) But I wouldn't pick up more than 3 levels going this route. If I were any other race other than variant human, I'd probably only pick up 1 level from Rogue.
Lots to unpack here. All of it is good, of course. I really dig your take on this class. Especially the idea of multiclassing and the Cartographer's Tool. Sounds like a fun character to play for sure. And, I do have to agree. It really does seem like DEX is a super stat of 5E. STR really doesn't even come close with regards to diversity in skills and uses. Thank you for chiming in Simon!
@@WallyDM, no problem.
I've noticed that, when it comes to martial combat, Dex is the Superstat. But when it comes to spellcasting and interacting with the world, Charisma seems to be the superstat, with Int. and Wis. competing for table scraps.
It's kind of hard to really do a solid Cleric/Druid multiclass unless you're a druid of Melikki, or of some similar variant, where you're allowed and encouraged to wear metal armor... Unless the DM is chill re. druids using metal armor in their world (at which point, go for it). Sure, Circle of the Moon Druid is great for wild-shape tanking, but you only have so many wildshapes at the end of the day.
On the other hand, the Wizard/Artificer is also a bit hard to pull off since most Wizards will need to go at least 3 levels in Artificer in order to gain access to solid armor proficiencies, which can be problematic depending on how many Wizard levels you're actually going. (Depending on your Wiz. school, both your capstone and your ASI's could be affected.)
This was super helpful; thank you!
Glad I could help! :)
I would allow it to interact with things kinda like mage hand. The rule of cool applies here.
For sure! I can only imagine how many cool actions with the echo that the players will come up with.
My first thought with it was multi class rogue-arcane trickster because rogue and because mage hand
Sorry to monopolize the comments. As a DM, I would allow an Echo Knight to manipulate things with an Echo Avatar. Maybe utilize the rules for Unseen Servant in this regard.
You left out a *lot* of possibilities for using an Echo Avatar for exploration. You could have them check for traps, for example. If they have material substance enough to attack and manipulate objects then this should be reasonable.
Ah, monopolize away! I love answering. :) Unseen Servant... great idea on this! Also, yeah, wow... traps is another great use... there are a ton of possibilities for sure... if the DM allows us, of course, lol.
I would so use the echo as a scout, see where the enemy is then decide how to act. Or.... are you able to manifest it the other side of a locked door?...... Maybe if that door had a window....
@@dmstretch6634 Ooooh... that is an interesting thought... Hmm.
Don't forget the Echo Avatar could be used to get to high places. it's classed as an object not a creature (Flight), (think of it as conjured phantom sword that fights with you). Echo Knight leaves alot for DM discretion.
If I was a rogue that multiclassed into echo knight, would my echos be able to sneak attack?
Great question Dave... I wasn't sure, so I did some digging. Found this answer online and I like it. I would go by this:
"An Echo knight lets you attack from either your space or your echo’s, not both. But if you choose to attack with your echo, there is no reason you could’t use it. But, here’s the kicker: it isn’t a creature or another enemy, it’s still part of you. So you can’t gain the ability to use Sneak Attack for free with it just because you and the echo are within 5’ of the enemy."
Hope this helps!
An Echo can only attack.
It cant interact with things.
It does occupy a space but it cant flip a lever or twist a knob.
It can, however, kick a door.
Wally: Will you be doing a video on a build for the Chronurgist and the Graviturgist?
@Alan Schaub I would like to do at least one of them, for sure. I was leaning towards the Chronurgist, but either one could work. Which one do you like better?
Wally D.M. I think the Chronurgist has been subclass features and would be more fun to play for me, personally. The Graviturgist has some powerful spells, though.
Do you think the echo could flank?
I would allow the echo to interact with objects as per the 7th lv trait
Hey there, great question! Thank you for asking it. While always open to DM Interpretation, I would say that No, the echo does not help with regards to Flanking. The Echo is neither an ally or a creature. It is an ability.
But... just to be on the safe side, I searched the internet and found Mathew Mercer's response to a tweet stating that the Echo does not trigger Flanking. Hope this helps!
Mar 17, 2020
Twitter Question: would an echo knight's echo provide flanking advantage?
Matthew Mercer @matthewmercer:
As the echo is technically not an “ally”, but a feature, it would not grant a flanking bonus, should you use the rule
If I use Echo Avatar can I still use a bonus action to switch places with my Echo? Like if I’m over encumbered could I send my Echo home and teleport into its space?
That would be amazing if we could Jinx! But unfortunately, we cannot. Jeremy Crawford has officially stated that the Echo Avatar ability can only be used to scout with. Here is the link to his twitter: twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242199682534608896
Hope this helps!
Wally D.M. That’s fair, it’s be pretty wild if you could just teleport up to 1000 feet every 10 minutes starting at 7th level. That being said they really should have had it in the book.
Docedahedron.... a 12 sided 3D shape with each side in the shape of a pentagram?....
A pentagram is a 5 pointed star lmfao :P
Pentagon maybe? lol
lmao... yep... Pentagon. I must have been drinking too much! Haha!
@@WallyDM Lol
Sorry for being late but can the echo fighter perform cerrain actions as you would like being able to speak?
Is echo night a spell itself? Is it a class/race? Or is it not usable?
Echo Knight is a fighter subclass in Explorer's Guide to Wildemount
Checking out that Cha stat. Isn't a 10 a +0 for modifier?
I came to the comments section specifically for this reason
Ah, yep. Absolutely. 10 is a +0... I think I considered having a 12 CHA at one point, but changed my mind. Resulting in the +1 modifier not being adjusted. Great catch on this. I hope you enjoyed the video! :)
Ah, yep. Absolutely. 10 is a +0... I think I considered having a 12 CHA at one point, but changed my mind. Resulting in the +1 modifier not being adjusted. Great catch on this. I hope you enjoyed the video! :)
"if your dm allows" is the laziest answer to any dnd question.
yeah. you can do ANYTHING you dm allows....can you be a halfling carrying a gargantuan greatsword? if your dm allows.....
can you wish for a million wishes? if your dm allows....
can you have a spaceship and hunt down and kill the gods? if your dm allows.....
i hate it when people like mercer are asked "what does this rule as written mean? does it mean this or that? because it's not entirely clear" and they refuse to give a straight answer. of course ANYTHING can be overridden by the dm.....but that wasnt the question. it was about rules as written. and those should be clear and unequivocal.
Where did you get the player handbook with the Echo knight information. I bought the module on Roll20 and can't for the life of me fine it. :(
Hi Joe! The Echo Knight is not in the Players Handbook. It is in the new D&D Book: Explorer's Guide to Wildemount. I don't know much about Roll20, but it will probably be a separate package.
Am I first?
You are! Congrats. :)
Wally D.M. I have still finishing watching the video. Does this build include the Sentinel feat? It seems like that could be really good on an Echo Knight!
@@alanschaub147 The Sentinel Feat would be really good! I left that up for the viewers to decide. I went the boring route and cranked up CON to 20 and STR to 18, but I would not hesitate pulling the trigger on a feat at one point. There are so many good feats that go with this subclass, for sure!
@@FlyingAxblade_D20 That's awesome! Recognition well deserved! And... still a bummer what happened to Flying Axblade. :(
@@FlyingAxblade_D20 I have not seen The Vixens. I'll have to check it out