Xav 😢what can I say at least you tried mate, can’t knock you for that, you hopefully have stopped others from doing the same. You know what it makes sense that the moss had kept the roots wet right throughout the winter and spring time. As others and you say maybe with a greenhouse things may have been different. I had planned to air layer on Large privet but the tree is not looking too healthy at the moment so not a good idea, air layers should only be undertaken on healthy stock. All the best Xav look forward to your next cock up, 🫣oops sorry I meant your next successful video.
Thanks for the support Joe. In truth, I could have stuck to my usual method but I was so curious about how insistent Peter Chanw as on this approach. It clearly works with his set-up...but not inn mjy cold and dark greenhouse frame :(
This video will save future trees. I'm not a huge fan of sphagnum moss. I have always had trouble getting the sphagnum moss out without taking fine roots with it and I have trouble keeping it in the correct moisture range. Too often it either dries out or stays too wet to keep the new roots healthy. I know others have gotten good results, but I usually ended up taking the L when I used moss for my air layers. I now mostly just air layer on vertical branches and trunks that allow me to use a sliced and taped plastic pot filled with bonsai soil as the medium for the new roots to emerge into, and I only use sphagnum moss in my air layers for two things: as a drain screen at the bottom of my pot where it surrounds the existing trunk/branch, and as a surface cover to reduce the risk of my air layer drying out. It requires regular watering, but I've only had one failure since making the switch.
If it works for you then definitely do not change things. As I've said to others I did this to try and see if this method would work for me. It didnt! I shall continue to air layer in sphagnum but get them into normal soil once seperated. Cheers
Just to be clear. Sphagnum for the airlayer itself is an essential method for me. It is 'post separation' where the experiment to keep them in sphagnum took place. That is the bit I wont repeat.
I think the sphagnum works for Peter because he uses the containers with holes on the sides so i suppose the sphagnum dries out faster. It doesn't work with regular pots.
That is also a good point. His greenhouses are also about 10 times bigger than mine and have a lot of airflow around them. Oh well - at least i gave it a go :)
I’ve used sphagnum moss for years in my orchids. That medium must be lightly in place. It retains Uber amounts of moisture, so if left outdoors and in consistent rainy days it will rot roots. Overtime as well this medium becomes extremely acidic which will also kill roots. I wouldn’t say a complete waste of effort, I’d try not keeping it as long in that moss, maybe 5-6 months and then into proper soil 🤷♀️
That is definitely an interesting point about becoming acidic. I definitely had it in the wrong environment over winter and it retained far too much moisture as a result. Thanks for replying :)
Thanks Xavier. Also following Peter Chan's advice, this summer, I left lots of sphagnum around the roots of my first air layers. I don't want to disturb them now (Oct) so I think I'll put them in the shed over the winter to stop them getting wet. Fingers crossed.
I have no doubt it works as he says it does BUT I just don't have the same greenhouse systerm and conditions for it to work. Just too cold and damp. Let me know how yours get on - I would be very interested :)
This happened to me too, on rooted cuttings. I cannot balance the water to air perfectly day to day for its needs. Now I just bury all my new cuttings and sick trees in my shaded cold compost pile. As long as the tree isn't too far past dormancy, they usually do well.
Really wasn't expecting that! 😮 I was planning on using a lot of sphagnum for my collected trees this winter but after this: No way! Thank you for making this experiment Xavier.
The video you mentioned where the guy (Jerome) lops off Japanese maple branches and screws them into a pot was made by "We are the Bonsai Supply" and title is something like "Maple Forest from Cuttings" They live in Georgia, U.S. I messaged him about it 2 months ago and he said "One tree died but the rest are coming out of dormancy and he will have a follow up on it soon." But still no update yet.
😢 oh my, I really wasn't expecting that... Good job it's not the start of your journey, or that could have made you quit (definitely would have me) thanks for sharing Xavier. Good to know what not to do myself amuch appreciated 🙏🏼 take care
„Brand new baby roots“ - like the expression, Xavier. 🤗😘 Sorry it didn’t work as intended. Again something learned. Meanwhile in Salzburg: Good morning after nightshift. Had a good one. Wish you all a pleasant Sunday. 🙋♀️ Cheers
I needed quite a bit of cheering up tonight, and clicking on your video, and the music you overlay it with, should have been a dead give away of the outcome of your experiment. It didn't cheer me up, but it was informative. Looking forward to your next video. Maybe you need a koi pond??? Or just visit Jason's. It's so calming.
I'm sorry for not cheering you up. It has actually still been a very helpful result for me and in truth all those airlayers - apart from the olives are doing ok.
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat I do have to admit that I sent the message before the end of the video, and was pleasantly surprised. And the music changed, but still no koi fish.
So potting air layers on into more sphagnum didn't go too well. Sphagnum is brilliant for fostering initial root growth but I pot on into coir compost with added grit without disturbing the initial root ball - seems to work. Clearly yours got too wet and didn't have enough sustenance. I'm guessing Peter Chan feeds them quite a bit.
Hi David. His entire environmental set-up makes the real difference with large airy greenhouses etc. It was a one-off experiment that I'm glad I tried but will now go back to my traditional system. Which is pretty well what you seem to use. Thanks for watching.
I think you're over watering.... Slightly dry but damp has always given the best results I've seen. Try to leave some time after cutting from the "mother" to get a little growth on be fore winter also seems to help. Good luck , great video.
Well, let me chime in here and shed some light on a few things. First of all ive seen the videos of Peter chan putting his air layers in sphagnum moss but if i recall didnt he also use some compost as well? Ok so lets talk horticulture for a minute. Sphagnum moss has no nutients or minerals to sustain a tree, so just slapping a new air layer in just sphagnum moss does nothing to help it grow. The sphagnum was just there to keep the area moist so roots can grow. Once the air layer is removed from the parent tree it has no way of getting its nutrients and minerals which is why air layers should get planted in a nutrient rich soil with mycorhizzae to increase uptake to the new tree. Sphagnum being a neutral medium just kept you roots wet which is why you had bad results. Next time put your air layers in lava/pumice and something like perlite or pine bark to catch fertilizer or just use loam so the tree has the nutrients it needs to start a better root system.
Thanks - put like that it is pretty obvious he must be adding something else to his airlayers post separation. I certainly didnt pick up on it. In truth, this was a one off to see if I could replicate his results. i will be going back to my normal tried and tested methods this year. Cheers
Thanks Andrew. I agree - it was a shock to have lost all the roots but I am glad I can leave that to Peter Chan and go back to my tried and tested method.
Just this year I've been looking for sphagnum alternatives. Now experimenting with coco bark/peat. (In the tropics.) So thanks for this timely experimentation. You got a sub 👍
Cheers - Just to clarify that the sphagnum worked well for the airlayer itself which I showed in a previous video. The issue occured when i decided to keep it in the sphagnum over the winter to encourage greater root production. It was based on Peter Chan of Heron's method. Never again for me :)
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat Thanks. I am also curious about the how and why of Peter's success, because when we use sphagnum for airlayer, it's very difficult to safely remove the moss from the new roots before planting. This leaves us fighting root rot for some time. (NB I've had no such issues with coco peat and bark *so far*.) Peter's experience may indeed be bc of those fine green houses at Heron's.
@@bibnida7945 That's been one of my big problems, too. I solved it by using bonsai soil - which for me is mostly pumice and coarse DE - as the rooting medium. I'd imagine that bark would do the trick, too.
i have a bonsai in pure sphagnum due to root bound and couldn't repot because im in winter. What is working well for me is the fact that its in a greenhouse for control temp. Alongside live fresh sphagnum moss not brown dead moss. It looks like it was way too wet this whole time and being outside in the weather would not of helped. For my watering i would say 900ml every 7-9 days. Wanting it damp but not wet. If you were to put a fertilizer in it, must be organic and do less than half the recommendation. I agree I believe it would be good for Peter to do a video as I feel he believes it wont add much value but there is a lot of unanswered questions. Dont give up an keep up trying new things! Hope this helps..
That is helpefuland very positive. I think sometmes it is easy to watch professionals and be unaware that they're methods also rely on other knowledge or conditions that they forget to talk about. I am lucky that I was able to explore this aspect without losing costly trees. As it is, only the olive and one maple didnt survive. the rest seem ery happy now :)
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat It was a great exercise and content to share! i am surprised the big Maple did so well considering the lack of roots. Keep up the great work
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat this is the best video from the most expert guy about that. Very long, i know. ruclips.net/video/tPGpGImFpqM/видео.html OTH, you have seen Tony Tickle bag techniq, and also Tonys bonsai clear bag for yamadori, and it's nothing different from that.
I've been able to root olives into literally anything. I took an interesting 10 inch thick olive branch that a landscaper had just pruned and was going to toss into the wood chipper, and being away for the weekend, all I had to put it in was a little bucket and some gravel from alongside the road. When I got home, because of my tendency to procrastinate after getting home from a holiday, I just left it in the bucket and drilled some holes on the sides around the bottom. It rooted just fine.
That is definitely the case and I think it was in the back of my mind when I tried this method. The roots that were poking through in January were rotten by march :(
Iv been watching Heron videos and am just in the middle of 4 air layerings for the first time. This years cold weather has slowed things down as I’m coming up to around 8 weeks and not seeing any sign of roots in the bag yet. Your video was informative as I hopefully near harvest time.The end of last year and start of this year was so wet. Fingers crossed I see some roots soon 👍🏻
I wonder if the roots wouldn’t have grown much over the winter and trying to remove all the moss before the growing season started has knocked off the few roots that may have been there. Never seen Peter trying to remove all the moss and try to put it a small bonsai pot. Think they at most would need potting on into a bigger pot with bonsai compost and only remove a little of the moss. I’m no expert mind. Patience is the hardest part to master regarding bonsai 🤔
@@stephenmason5827 You are probably right but the aim of that experiment was to see if I got more root growth like Peter did. I actually lost most of the roots leavimng them in the moss. My conditions are just not the same as his in the end. Fun to try but not something I would do again :)
@@stephenmason5827 I jus put on a very late airlayer yesterday but I feel confident it will produce roots by September. Good luck with yours Stephen :)
How frustrating. 🫣 The hornbeam is such a good shape for a mame or such. It was such a hard winter here in Wales, so assuming with you? I've yet to try an air layer. Have my eye on my cherry and twisted hazel. Greenwood did a comparison of methods recently and also put the moss roots straight into media. Trial and error I guess.
To be fair - that was a one off experiment. I normally go straight into a growing medium once the air layer has taken. Get that Cherry layered next spring :)
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Xav 😢what can I say at least you tried mate, can’t knock you for that, you hopefully have stopped others from doing the same. You know what it makes sense that the moss had kept the roots wet right throughout the winter and spring time. As others and you say maybe with a greenhouse things may have been different. I had planned to air layer on Large privet but the tree is not looking too healthy at the moment so not a good idea, air layers should only be undertaken on healthy stock. All the best Xav look forward to your next cock up, 🫣oops sorry I meant your next successful video.
Thanks for the support Joe. In truth, I could have stuck to my usual method but I was so curious about how insistent Peter Chanw as on this approach. It clearly works with his set-up...but not inn mjy cold and dark greenhouse frame :(
Thanks fo doing this experiment Xav. Although it didn;t work out, at least you are not short of trees to work on mate
And as you know - I am struggling to have enough trees in the nursery :)
I think Heron's green house 'climate' makes the difference between Peter Chan's results and yours.
Definitely :)
This video will save future trees. I'm not a huge fan of sphagnum moss. I have always had trouble getting the sphagnum moss out without taking fine roots with it and I have trouble keeping it in the correct moisture range. Too often it either dries out or stays too wet to keep the new roots healthy. I know others have gotten good results, but I usually ended up taking the L when I used moss for my air layers. I now mostly just air layer on vertical branches and trunks that allow me to use a sliced and taped plastic pot filled with bonsai soil as the medium for the new roots to emerge into, and I only use sphagnum moss in my air layers for two things: as a drain screen at the bottom of my pot where it surrounds the existing trunk/branch, and as a surface cover to reduce the risk of my air layer drying out. It requires regular watering, but I've only had one failure since making the switch.
If it works for you then definitely do not change things. As I've said to others I did this to try and see if this method would work for me. It didnt! I shall continue to air layer in sphagnum but get them into normal soil once seperated. Cheers
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat The key is to see what works in one's own yard with one's own resources. Experiments like this are sometimes necessary.
Just when I’m starting to get okay with shagnum … I watch this. I think mostly the point of difficulty to remove is the best one. What a chore!😊
Just to be clear. Sphagnum for the airlayer itself is an essential method for me. It is 'post separation' where the experiment to keep them in sphagnum took place. That is the bit I wont repeat.
I think the sphagnum works for Peter because he uses the containers with holes on the sides so i suppose the sphagnum dries out faster. It doesn't work with regular pots.
That is also a good point. His greenhouses are also about 10 times bigger than mine and have a lot of airflow around them. Oh well - at least i gave it a go :)
I’ve found that all sphagnum works better using pond baskets. Doesn’t stay soggy as long after watering.
That's a very good popint - thanks for highlighting it :)
I’ve used sphagnum moss for years in my orchids. That medium must be lightly in place. It retains Uber amounts of moisture, so if left outdoors and in consistent rainy days it will rot roots. Overtime as well this medium becomes extremely acidic which will also kill roots. I wouldn’t say a complete waste of effort, I’d try not keeping it as long in that moss, maybe 5-6 months and then into proper soil 🤷♀️
That is definitely an interesting point about becoming acidic. I definitely had it in the wrong environment over winter and it retained far too much moisture as a result. Thanks for replying :)
Thanks Xavier. Also following Peter Chan's advice, this summer, I left lots of sphagnum around the roots of my first air layers. I don't want to disturb them now (Oct) so I think I'll put them in the shed over the winter to stop them getting wet. Fingers crossed.
I have no doubt it works as he says it does BUT I just don't have the same greenhouse systerm and conditions for it to work. Just too cold and damp. Let me know how yours get on - I would be very interested :)
This happened to me too, on rooted cuttings. I cannot balance the water to air perfectly day to day for its needs. Now I just bury all my new cuttings and sick trees in my shaded cold compost pile. As long as the tree isn't too far past dormancy, they usually do well.
Funny you should say that - in the early days that is exactly what I would do :)
Really wasn't expecting that! 😮 I was planning on using a lot of sphagnum for my collected trees this winter but after this: No way! Thank you for making this experiment Xavier.
The process does work for Peter Chan but in my conditions they just stayed too wet over a very cold winter...good roots turned to mush by Spring :(
The video you mentioned where the guy (Jerome) lops off Japanese maple branches and screws them into a pot was made by "We are the Bonsai Supply" and title is something like "Maple Forest from Cuttings" They live in Georgia, U.S.
I messaged him about it 2 months ago and he said "One tree died but the rest are coming out of dormancy and he will have a follow up on it soon."
But still no update yet.
Thanks for that. I have been trying to chase up a result on that. All the best😁
😢 oh my, I really wasn't expecting that... Good job it's not the start of your journey, or that could have made you quit (definitely would have me) thanks for sharing Xavier. Good to know what not to do myself amuch appreciated 🙏🏼 take care
Cheers Rob. i was so curious about Peter Chan's results with sphagnum that I had to give it a try :)
„Brand new baby roots“ - like the expression, Xavier. 🤗😘 Sorry it didn’t work as intended. Again something learned. Meanwhile in Salzburg: Good morning after nightshift. Had a good one. Wish you all a pleasant Sunday. 🙋♀️ Cheers
Thanks martina - at least i could leave the sphagnum to heron's and og back to my usual wintering method :)
I needed quite a bit of cheering up tonight, and clicking on your video, and the music you overlay it with, should have been a dead give away of the outcome of your experiment. It didn't cheer me up, but it was informative. Looking forward to your next video. Maybe you need a koi pond??? Or just visit Jason's. It's so calming.
I'm sorry for not cheering you up. It has actually still been a very helpful result for me and in truth all those airlayers - apart from the olives are doing ok.
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat I do have to admit that I sent the message before the end of the video, and was pleasantly surprised. And the music changed, but still no koi fish.
@@maryweber4176 No room for Koi in my bathtub :)
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat do you have a laundry tub?
@@maryweber4176 I do but that is occupied by my Great White Shark :)
Can't wait to see this, I'll be back later..hope your week end is going well..
Yeah - finally started getting into the jap maple pruning!
Great video Xavier. There looking good 👍
Cheers Andy - apart from the ones that lost all their roots of course :(
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat haha I didn’t think you’d want me to mention that 😂
So potting air layers on into more sphagnum didn't go too well. Sphagnum is brilliant for fostering initial root growth but I pot on into coir compost with added grit without disturbing the initial root ball - seems to work. Clearly yours got too wet and didn't have enough sustenance. I'm guessing Peter Chan feeds them quite a bit.
Hi David. His entire environmental set-up makes the real difference with large airy greenhouses etc. It was a one-off experiment that I'm glad I tried but will now go back to my traditional system. Which is pretty well what you seem to use. Thanks for watching.
I think you're over watering.... Slightly dry but damp has always given the best results I've seen. Try to leave some time after cutting from the
"mother" to get a little growth on be fore winter also seems to help. Good luck , great video.
Cheers for the advicce dale - will definitely be reducing the amount of watering this year :)
Well, let me chime in here and shed some light on a few things. First of all ive seen the videos of Peter chan putting his air layers in sphagnum moss but if i recall didnt he also use some compost as well?
Ok so lets talk horticulture for a minute. Sphagnum moss has no nutients or minerals to sustain a tree, so just slapping a new air layer in just sphagnum moss does nothing to help it grow. The sphagnum was just there to keep the area moist so roots can grow. Once the air layer is removed from the parent tree it has no way of getting its nutrients and minerals which is why air layers should get planted in a nutrient rich soil with mycorhizzae to increase uptake to the new tree. Sphagnum being a neutral medium just kept you roots wet which is why you had bad results.
Next time put your air layers in lava/pumice and something like perlite or pine bark to catch fertilizer or just use loam so the tree has the nutrients it needs to start a better root system.
Thanks - put like that it is pretty obvious he must be adding something else to his airlayers post separation. I certainly didnt pick up on it. In truth, this was a one off to see if I could replicate his results. i will be going back to my normal tried and tested methods this year. Cheers
Despite of you deeming the experiment a failure, you have several nice new trees to work on.
Got to them just in time,
Thanks Andrew. I agree - it was a shock to have lost all the roots but I am glad I can leave that to Peter Chan and go back to my tried and tested method.
Just this year I've been looking for sphagnum alternatives. Now experimenting with coco bark/peat. (In the tropics.) So thanks for this timely experimentation. You got a sub 👍
Cheers - Just to clarify that the sphagnum worked well for the airlayer itself which I showed in a previous video. The issue occured when i decided to keep it in the sphagnum over the winter to encourage greater root production. It was based on Peter Chan of Heron's method. Never again for me :)
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat Thanks. I am also curious about the how and why of Peter's success, because when we use sphagnum for airlayer, it's very difficult to safely remove the moss from the new roots before planting. This leaves us fighting root rot for some time. (NB I've had no such issues with coco peat and bark *so far*.) Peter's experience may indeed be bc of those fine green houses at Heron's.
@AI Creations David Easterbrook, yes. Good vids.
@@bibnida7945 Oh well - definitley a one off experiment for me :)
@@bibnida7945 That's been one of my big problems, too. I solved it by using bonsai soil - which for me is mostly pumice and coarse DE - as the rooting medium. I'd imagine that bark would do the trick, too.
i have a bonsai in pure sphagnum due to root bound and couldn't repot because im in winter. What is working well for me is the fact that its in a greenhouse for control temp. Alongside live fresh sphagnum moss not brown dead moss. It looks like it was way too wet this whole time and being outside in the weather would not of helped. For my watering i would say 900ml every 7-9 days. Wanting it damp but not wet. If you were to put a fertilizer in it, must be organic and do less than half the recommendation.
I agree I believe it would be good for Peter to do a video as I feel he believes it wont add much value but there is a lot of unanswered questions.
Dont give up an keep up trying new things! Hope this helps..
That is helpefuland very positive. I think sometmes it is easy to watch professionals and be unaware that they're methods also rely on other knowledge or conditions that they forget to talk about.
I am lucky that I was able to explore this aspect without losing costly trees. As it is, only the olive and one maple didnt survive. the rest seem ery happy now :)
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat It was a great exercise and content to share! i am surprised the big Maple did so well considering the lack of roots.
Keep up the great work
Olives root very easy into bags. There are many videos in spanish for that
Thanks for that - any chance you can send me a link please?
@@XaviersBonsaiRetreat this is the best video from the most expert guy about that. Very long, i know. ruclips.net/video/tPGpGImFpqM/видео.html
OTH, you have seen Tony Tickle bag techniq, and also Tonys bonsai clear bag for yamadori, and it's nothing different from that.
@@bonsaikastur Thanks. I got you - I've done the black bag myself. I understand now :)
I've been able to root olives into literally anything. I took an interesting 10 inch thick olive branch that a landscaper had just pruned and was going to toss into the wood chipper, and being away for the weekend, all I had to put it in was a little bucket and some gravel from alongside the road. When I got home, because of my tendency to procrastinate after getting home from a holiday, I just left it in the bucket and drilled some holes on the sides around the bottom. It rooted just fine.
@@DrunkBonsai But what was in your glass at the time :)
Could you whizz the dried Sphagnum in a blender before using, so that there aren't long strands? Might make the repotting easier to come apart.
I'm not sure my daughter would be happy with me using the blender - but defniitely an idea :)
Wow likes
Thanks for the encouragement. Do you have any bonsai yourself?
Sticks in pots 😔 Not at all what I was expecting from the sphagnum trick.
They looked so good when I removed the airlayers last autumn too :)
It never hurts... to.... uh... try... Well ok then.... Now we know!
Yup - now we know :(
I think Heron´s techniques only work if you have a huge greenhouse...
Grts
Kennet
That is definitely the case and I think it was in the back of my mind when I tried this method. The roots that were poking through in January were rotten by march :(
Over watered !!
So true - it has taken me quite a few years to work out how little water is required. The journey of learning continues for me :)
Iv been watching Heron videos and am just in the middle of 4 air layerings for the first time. This years cold weather has slowed things down as I’m coming up to around 8 weeks and not seeing any sign of roots in the bag yet. Your video was informative as I hopefully near harvest time.The end of last year and start of this year was so wet. Fingers crossed I see some roots soon 👍🏻
I wonder if the roots wouldn’t have grown much over the winter and trying to remove all the moss before the growing season started has knocked off the few roots that may have been there. Never seen Peter trying to remove all the moss and try to put it a small bonsai pot. Think they at most would need potting on into a bigger pot with bonsai compost and only remove a little of the moss. I’m no expert mind. Patience is the hardest part to master regarding bonsai 🤔
@@stephenmason5827 You are probably right but the aim of that experiment was to see if I got more root growth like Peter did. I actually lost most of the roots leavimng them in the moss. My conditions are just not the same as his in the end. Fun to try but not something I would do again :)
@@stephenmason5827 I jus put on a very late airlayer yesterday but I feel confident it will produce roots by September. Good luck with yours Stephen :)
How frustrating. 🫣
The hornbeam is such a good shape for a mame or such. It was such a hard winter here in Wales, so assuming with you?
I've yet to try an air layer. Have my eye on my cherry and twisted hazel. Greenwood did a comparison of methods recently and also put the moss roots straight into media.
Trial and error I guess.
To be fair - that was a one off experiment. I normally go straight into a growing medium once the air layer has taken. Get that Cherry layered next spring :)