Dragon Age Origins - Should You SPARE LOGHAIN? (Plus Awakening & Inquisition Consequences)
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- In this video, we’re going to discuss whether or not you should spare Teyrn Loghain in Dragon Age Origins. We’ll explore this question from the perspective of what is best for Ferelden. And we’ll also discover what happens during the Awakening expansion and Dragon Age Inquisition if Loghain was spared, assuming he survives the final battle.
DRAGON AGE ORIGINS - WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU BETRAY MORRIGAN TO THE TEMPLARS?
• Dragon Age Origins - W...
DRAGON AGE ORIGINS - SELLING CONNOR'S SOUL TO BANG A DEMON (MAGE EXCLUSIVE CHOICE)
• Dragon Age Origins - S...
DRAGON AGE ORIGINS - ALL COMPANIONS DIE IN THE WORST PLAYTHROUGH EVER
• Dragon Age Origins - A...
0:00 Introduction
1:12 Loghain or Alistair
1:50 What Are Loghain's Crimes?
2:45 Best Way for Loghain to Atone for His Crimes?
4:10 Why You Should Spare Loghain
5:01 What Happens If You Spare Loghain
7:19 Loghain in DAO Awakening DLC
8:45 Loghain in Dragon Age Inquisition
9:41 Conclusion 
Игры
I recon the dog dueling loghain would’ve been what’s best for ferelden
Unless Loghain keep a leftover bacon in his pocket just in case.
🤣🤣🤣
👆🏻
Loghain also poisoned arl eamon leading to the events at Redcliffe, he cut a deal with Uldred to take over the circle. Edit-If you play the Return to Ostagar dlc its revelaed that Anora is barren and unable to conceive and Eamon was suggesting that Cailan set her aside to find a lady of bearing him an heir to the Theirin bloodline. Cailan approached Empress Celene of Orlais with talks of finally bringing peace between their 2 nations with a alliance of marriage between them both, Loghain found out and was incredibly pissed off.
Anora isn’t barren, Cailan is. He’s the one that had multiple lovers and didn’t have a single child. It’s safe to assume that the issue lied with him.
@@zachrobinson6801 ...
Alistair...
I don't believe that Loghain knew of Eamon's advice to Cailan. If you take Loghain with you in the DLC and find that letter he gets angry and his reaction leads me to believe it's the first time he heard of it.
@@venlocity2 cailan is not Alistair's father, but his half-brother by king marric and a maid
@@johnnelson4411 Maric and an elf named Fiona, who later is seen in DAI 👀. So much DA lore it's hard to keep everything straight.
Even if you can understand why Loghain abandoned the army at Ostagar is that this a guy whose attempted to assassinate the grey wardens. He’s allied himself with corrupt nobles such as Rendon Howe. Attempting to kill the Arl of Redcliffe. Enslaved elves for money. Loghains attempts to excise the grey wardens would have doomed fereldan because they are needed to to kill the Archdemon. All of these crimes are unforgivable. And I don’t need him to win the game.
but only senior grey wardens know why they are needed to to kill the archdemon and outsiders think that it's a scam, a lie told by wardens just to appear more important, so they could invoke the rite of conscription
You have to take to account that while Loghain did horrible things he’s the one that’s been buying you enough time to gather an army while the Darkspawn take over the south.
Yes it’s messed up that he sold people into slavery but he needed to replace the army lost at Ostagar. And trying to assassinate your enemies and pin it on your other enemies isn’t really as evil as you think.
The Wardens haven't historically or even later on in the series been a spotless order and Duncan despite having the king's ear did indulge his foolish wish of fighting at ostagar despite him not liking the idea. It's easy to be skeptical of Loghain's intentions and actions but in his shoes he has every right to be skeptical of the Wardens and we didn't even know they were needed until the end. If he had allied with your Warden then he would have easily been labeled a hero. We all easily forgive Commander Shepard for allowing 300,000 batarians to die. Sometimes the ends do justify the means in the circumstance.
Why did Logan that? If you look at his history and how he took the decision to use assassins, you saw the pain. He is not different from others who had to make decisions. I saw it like you but after years I can understand why Logain made his decisions and I think he is more rational than Alistair for example.
@@zachrobinson6801 . He bought you enough time? Lol, it was totally the opposite, he made you waste a lot of time at least for getting the alliances with Redcliffe and the Mages, he didn't buy anything, if something he lost a lot of soldiers who might have potentially helped against the Darkspawn (and I am talking about the ones lost in the Civil War, not in Ostagar).
And whatever logic you want to use to excuse what he did to the elves, it doesn't change the fact it was wrong and an evil act against them.
He was evil in Origins for whatever reasons, even if people want to accept it or not.
"The Stolen Throne" book really gives you a different outlook on Loghan.
I'll have to check that one out!
Reading it now. He was such a badass ... but I'm in the middle of a human noble fem playthrough....he dies
While he is definitely a badass in that book, the three factors that made me not let it influence my decision is--
1. It was THIRTY years ago, by the time the game starts. And honestly, what he's done during the game should outweigh his heroism of several decades ago.
2. Most of my characters wouldn't know who he is. So on an rp level, the only ones I can see being huge fans based on his actions during the Orlesian war with Ferelden before the events of the game is maybe the human noble and the mage IF they were into history. And, well, can't see, for the noble, it outweighing his alliance with Howe (even if you can somehow try to believe Howe did that on his own, or that Loghain didn't find out about it subsequently and yet STILL made Howe the arl of Denerim AND the arl of Amaranthine and probably was setting up for the Teryn of Highever by the end).
3. And close reading OF the book, he reveals some of the character traits that aren't...so heroic. Like with Katriel, where even knowing she'd disobeyed her orders, he gets Maric to kill her JUST to demonstrate how he'd have to 'make tough decisions'. And, well, Flemeth also says flat out (and I don't think she's ever actually lied. Manipulated perhaps, but not lied) to Maric that if he kept Loghain close he 'will betray you, each time worse than the last'. I did get some impressions of Loghain, but not all of them were positive, from 'Stolen Throne.'
@@kannbrown65 well-paid my friend! You gotta post that in reddit lol
@@kannbrown65 Another book, The calling, which serves a sort prequel to Dragon Age: Awakening also gives look on Loghain's and Maric's relationship or rather how it has detoriated since. If I remember correct, Duncan muses that the way Loghain watches over Ferelden's legacy that Maric embodies makes him seem more like a jailor than Maric's brother in arms.
The Awakening part is even better if you are his son-in-law and on good terms with him. Just yakking it up like at a family BBQ.
...To get that outcome, don't you have to exile or execute Alistair?
@@Caiyde Not necessarily. If Alistair was "hardened", you can marry him to Anora and keep Loghain alive.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 If Alistair is married to Anora, then the Warden clearly isn't Loghain's son-in-law, is he
@@Caiyde Oh right, I missed the "son-in-law" part. My bad.
@@Caiyde Indeed, unthinkable, but i would like to see such dialogue.
You also missed Loghain poisoning Eamon
wasnt that arl howe?
@@powerthunfischdesdonners3086 he ordered it. I mean if you want to get technical it was Jowan.
@@PhantomX0990 huh, I must have missremembered that.
@@powerthunfischdesdonners3086 direct from the wiki, "Loghain takes drastic measures to secure Ferelden - such as allowing elves to be sold into slavery, employing the apostate Jowan to poison Arl Eamon Guerrin, soliciting the Circle mages for their allegiance in exchange for promises of greater freedoms, imprisoned and tortured prominent individuals that could become political liabilities to him, and hiring Zevran Arainai, an Antivan Crow, to assassinate the remaining Grey Wardens."
Howe was his advisor.
I could never spare Loghain. His actions are atrocious and inexcusable, even though they are understandable. You can argue that it was strategic and pragmatic to abandon Cailan and the Grey Wardens to their fate, but he was part of the reason why the army was so undermanned. He didn’t want Grey Wardens and Chevaliers from Orlais back on Fereldan soil after everything he went through in the war, and fought against Cailan’s decisions at every turn. As for the Fereldan Grey Wardens being too few, Duncan was trying his best but ran out of time. It hadn’t been that long since the Grey Wardens were allowed back in Fereldan and Duncan didn’t want to risk damaging relations after they just got back into Fereldan’s good graces. Every action Loghain took after Ostagar was that of a man on a power trip, a side affect of his betrayal to Maric and Fereldan. He cannot excuse hiring Jowan to poison Arl Eamon, which set off a chain of events that nearly destroyed Redcliffe and Eamon’s family. He cannot excuse allying with the traitorous snake Arl Rendon Howe, who killed the Couslands in an attempt to seize power. He cannot excuse hiring an assassin to kill the last of the Grey Wardens in Fereldan. He cannot excuse allowing Tevinter to kidnap and enslave Fereldan citizens for coin, no matter if the citizens were Elves. He may have been a good man and a hero who had been through too much, but everything he did made it clear he was no longer that man. His past deeds do not absolve him of his crimes, and will not convince me to abandon Alistair. Some can argue that Alistair is whiny and unreasonable if you spare Loghain but think about it for a moment. Alistair looked up to Duncan as a mentor and father figure, and his fellow Grey Wardens were like his brothers. He finally felt accepted and like he belonged after being neglected and abused his whole life, only to lose everything 6 months later. He knows that it’s pragmatic to spare Loghain, but he cannot bear dishonoring Duncan’s memory by allowing his murderer to join the organization he nearly destroyed. He has legitimate reasons to hate Loghain and not want him to live.
@@robrays9070 Absolutely. I mostly play as Tabris, Mahariel, or Cousland and romance Alistair every time. If my Warden can avenge her people/family, how can I not let Alistair get the same resolution?
It's a really fine line you walk with Loghain, it's true. His crimes are incredibly severe and nearly broke what little defense could be mounted against the Blight.
But on the other hand, he is still a proven valuable military leader, so there is merit to keeping his talents so that he may contribute to the cause. Overall, I can see both sides of the argument and can't say I disagree with either one of them. No matter the outcome, it's just a single Grey Warden doing what they can with what they have.
@@TeeAiDee if Loghain was willing to betray you once who's to say he won't do it again? He's literally proven to be unreliable when the chips are down, you cannot count on him.
If Loghain somehow died during the Joining, his death would have drawn out and painful.
If he survives, he could die a painful and drawn out death fighting the Archdemon. If Loghain is to die a painful death (as he should) there should be at least _some_ material benefit for Farelden.
Even if you *win* the Landsmeet, Alastiar loses sight of what _actually_ mattered. *Duncan would have turned in his grave.* 🤷♂️
Well, Alistair's kind of a weak-willed whiny bitch from start to finish though. He's a good friend, but not a good leader. Losing that to gain an experienced, battle-hardened, pragmatic commander in the face of a Blight is definitely not a bad deal. Risks of betrayal are a non-issue since becoming Grey Warden all but forbids Loghain any kind of escape whatsoever, and is akin to living purgatory in his eyes (plus a punishment that fits the crime if there ever was).
The fact that Alistair is ready to forfeit such an asset - while GWs ranks are so drastically depleted, and in the very middle of a Blight to top it off - just to satisfy his desire for vengeance is in itself utter betrayal. He is putting his own interests before those of the whole of Ferelden, before all the Grey Wardens stand for.
However losing him for your party to marry him to Anora (while hardened) nets you a power couple of epic efficiency with absolute legitimacy, that no teyrn or bann would dare nor want to challenge, in charge of matters of governance. She is the head that leads while he is the heart that inspires.
This way you lose nothing and put everyone where he is strongest. And if you lose nothing, the Darkspawn gains nothing, which is all that matters.
If it wasn’t for Alistair leaving after everything you’ve been through then sparing Loghain would have been a much easier decision for me since I like the character and The Stolen Throne book further cements that.
"Everything you've been through", including the parts where he questioned your leadership - the leadership he pushed onto you, by the way - whenever your decision went against his moral?
"I wouldn't normally suggest slaying a child, but...he's an abomination. I'm not sure if there's any other choice."
*Later in the camp, after I was forced to kill Connor because I didn't get the mages help.*
"You killed Connor. You killed him. A little boy. How could you do that?"
That was the moment when I've had enough of Alistair. I'd gladly trade that manchild for a veteran general any day of the week.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 Loghain was a monster, no way am I trading him for alistair.
@@randonlando418 I beg to differ, but to each their own.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 true, he's a coward. He doesn't want leadership, that's fine, but he shouldn't be critical to the one he put in charge especially if he suggested the idea. Plus, I tried everything to avoid killing the kid but the way I played limited my options to just that, but Alistair doesn't care. I still find him better than Logan though, Logain is just terrible. He's a veteran general but also a slave trader. I know the Grey Wardens have to put aside certain crimes but that is a no for me. So, he dies, usually.
I really love Loghain's storyline when you spare him, but I can never do it, because I just don't wanna lose Alistair no matter what. I'm too attached to him lol And I would definitely sacrifice Loghain over Hawke in DA:I, I cannot leave Hawke behind. As much as I try to make decisions based on what's good for the world in game, my emotional attachment to my companions is still stronger lol
Like ur an anime character with the power of friendship lmao
@@davidkamps9879 exactly 😂
Same - in fact, the only reason I become immersed in the lore and world-building is *because* of the companions; just, choosing Loghain over Alistair is backwards to how I enjoy RPGs
Wait so who do you leave in the Fade in Inquisition?
@@thebattlebard
That throwaway Warden character - can’t even remember his name, which just speaks to how easy the choice is 😅
Frankly I like how this character is treated in future games as it all comes down to the perception of events. In Origins from the Wardens view he is a villain, but talking to people in future games some people see him as a hero for keeping his troops from marching into a lost cause with some survivors from the battle clearly believing the Wardens failed and Loghain was doing what he could to save as many as he could.
Growing up is realizing Loghain was never actually the villain
@@jacobforsythe9531 He was definitely a villain. But that doesn't mean he can't be useful for fixing the mess he made of things. Good intentions doesn't absolve him.
@@jacobforsythe9531 yah he kinda is. Just because at the end of the day he claims to have good intentions doesn’t mean his deplorable actions are suddenly good.
@@jacobforsythe9531 . He IS a villain, his actions in Origins make definitely one.
@@jacobforsythe9531 He was still a villain as his actions after the battle and the king's death, he grabbed for power and started ruling with an iron fist. His excuse of pulling out of a lost cause was a plausible cover for his actual lust for power.
The only thing that keeps me from sparing loghain is that I like having Alistair as Kieron’s dad. In the comics it is revealed that The therin bloodline is important to the lore
to each their own for my canon I feel it fits better that the warden is the dad cause of the connection he and Morrigan shared and that he is the only one of the trio who can take part in kierans childhood
@@voidofastora6032 . Yeah, but not everyone plays a male Warden (mine is a female elven mage for instance).
While the decision between Alistair/Loghain as Kieran's father can be made in any playthrough.
@@SeventhheavenDK my Warden is male but I don't wanna cheat on Leliana on top what I already said. Plus it's a dwarf noble and I do the thing where you sleep with Mardy so he already has a kid.
@@SeventhheavenDK i understand you but making a choice not available to certain characters you create is very satisfying and I respect old bioware for it making each play through unique and that doesn’t make it any less of a canon choice
In my playthrough Loghain died in Inquisition. I thought it was a great end to his arc to let him have a sacrificial death only after slowly redeeming himself. My Warden was also the type to spare people almost as much as possible.
In my run Alistair became a wandering drunk but if I ever redo that Warden I’ll have Alistair hardened so he can become king instead.
Never understood why people are saying that Cailan's plan was bad. Half his plan was for Loghain to flank the enemy, which he didn't, ofcourse it'd fail. His campaign was successful thus far, it doesn't make sense to believe that he wasn't a capable strategist, even if his mind was a bit too full of epic fairy tales. There is no excuse to what Loghain did. Still, sparing him to fight the blight is a good idea and it's a shame you can't calm Alistair down and make him understand that.
The plan would fail anyway because the signal came too late. By the time the beacon was lit, most of the soldiers acting as the bait were already dead and could no longer keep the darkspawn occupied. It won't be much of a flank if the attack only came from Loghain's side.
Plus, it was Cailan's idea to place the Grey Wardens--the only people who can kill Archdemon--at the frontline.
The Loghain's death & subsequent coronation of Alistair makes the DA:I choice n the fade very simple. Straud is such a non-character that you'll always save Hawke. When it between Alistair or Hawke, it's quite tough. And when it's between Loghain & Hawke, it makes you wonder "Do I let him finally rest as a hero, or can this man do even more good? Is his redemption over?"
That is the same thought I had, picking Hawke or Alistair/Loghain is crazy hard
Unfortunately so, and I actually really like Straud, but he just doesn't get enough screen time to become established enough of a character, like all the other characters of that choice.
Meanwhile your companions: YOU DID WHAT
Loghain is a fantastic character who has some very interesting development if you spare him, both in DA:O and future games. I actually default to keeping him alive these days.
Loghain making the Fade sacrifice in DAI is such an amazing ending to his arc. I spare him in most playthroughs as long as Alistair is hardened so he can still become king.
Loghain is voiced by Simon Templeman. He will forever be Kain from the "Legacy of Kain" series. His voice is just buried in my soul so where possible I can never get rid of him.
LoK had such legendary voice actors. For me, Tony Jay's Elder God character is SO iconic and can never be replaced.
@@ulyx9804 Oh he was superb. And he has such a range in ability. There is video here on YT where he and Simon Templeman practice the lines for Defiance in different voices. So good. The voice acting is what still holds that game in my memory.
@@acousticmonkey2209Number 1 worry about a remake is obviously the recasting of those VA's. Raziel's proud voice leaning heavily into the resentment after his fall is second to none. Also, Kain's regret when he realizes who he actually stabbed after Mobius' body comes back up... God that experience will never be remade. That game needs a remaster, not a remake.
@@ulyx9804 Absolutely. The only way I would accept a remake is if they pulled the audio files over from the original games and animated around it.
And even though this is outside video games, I feel compelled to add as a Star Trek fan, that Templeman is the husband of Rosalind Chao, the woman who portrays Keiko O'Brien in Star Trek TNG and DS9. I was wowed by that when I first heard of it.
I have 3 timelines for my playthroughs of the games, in the main one, the one that I did first for each game. I play and don't follow any guides or think about how I want things to go, I just do what I would personally pick in each situation. This is the *me* timeline as I ended up making myself as the inquisitor, initially I regretted sparing Loghain as it cost me having Alistair as a party member, but as Inquisition rolled around I realized I had made the right choice as Loghain could now actually redeem himself and spare characters, specifically Hawke from dying. All because I don't do take backs on actions in my timeline, every choice is permanent.
The first time I played all three Dragon Age games I didn't stop to read all the lore or analyze all the characters (I didn't know there were books or comics to implement some character arcs) so to me Loghain was just a bad guy hungry for power and mad enough not to realize what was the real threat. Then I got the chance to read both "The Stolen Throne" and "The Calling" and really Loghain became one of my favourite characters in Dragon Age... His friendship with Maric, the relationship he had with Rowan all the sacrifices he had made to save Ferelden during the Orlesian occupation. Hell I felt bad because he chose to stay away from the woman he loved for the sake of the country. But to me what he did in Origins was too much to keep him alive, all he thought was about keeping Ferelden free from the Orlesians.
He let his best friend's son die in Ostagar because he thought that the relationships with the Orlesians, Cailan was making, were the start of a new invasion and subjugation (he said it was because of Cailan foolishness in battle but we know better). The slave trade, the relationship with Howe, the poisoning of Eamon were all traits of a madman hungry for power and not anymore the man who was the councilor to King Maric.
To me the Hero of the battle of River Dane died when Maric was not anymore king, and even allowing him the chance to redeem himself as a martyr to die with the Archdeamon was too much, and I still feel bad for killing him because I remember vividly the adventures in the books.
Yeah, leaving both of Maric's sons to die was just too cruel. Flemeth did say Loghain would betray Maric in the worst possible ways in The Stolen Throne.
I'll happily execute Loghain in most of my playthroughs no problem. Only my villianous, ruthless, and pragmatic runthroughs have him ever complete the joining.
This video pretty much sums up my thought process on the subject. Alistair's blind hatred of Loghain is a prime example of why he shouldn't be on the throne. If he can't put aside his own personal vendetta for the good of the country, then let him storm off. Anora would make the better ruler without him. Even as a human male noble, I don't pursue the option to sit beside her because she's had enough people "influencing" her life up to this point. Everyone can make their own decisions. Loghain must atone for his, and if Alistair would rather wallow in self pity as a drunk than be a Grey Warden, so be it.
Ehh, I don't think I'd seriously consider having Logain as an ally, since he betrays several of his allies and is far too shortsighted. At the Landsmeet, it makes sense to kill him because he's a dangerous adversary that needs to be neutralized quick. I'd consider it if I wanted to sacrifice him later, but the Warden doesn't know about that particular issue until after the Landsmeet. On the other hand, Alistair leaving in a huff might be worth it. :P
"But the Warden doesn't know about that particular issue until after the Landsmeet."
Exactly the point. How was Loghain supposed to know that Grey Wardens are the only ones who can kill archdemons when the Order kept that a secret even from their own recruits, during a Blight?
He's not all-knowing. He did the best he could with what he knew; and retreating from Ostagar was ultimately the right choice, given what we know later.
This was a great video. It definitely gave me new perspective 😊
I think it would be neat if it was randomized every game whether Logain survives the joining
Should you spare Loghain?
Well, I would say there are many reasons not to spare him, especially if you decide to NOT metagame in any way.
However, the real answer must be: it depends on your Warden's personality and or relationships.
For instance, my Warden (who is a female elven mage) is kind of ruthless (not in an evil way, more like Android 18 from DB), for what she knows of Loghain through all the game, she realizes he cannot be trusted, he may even betray you again, he almost destroyed Ferelden with his actions, and we still don't know by that time the real trick to kill an Archdemon.
My Warden also is in a relationship with Alistair, and he is the one who melts her icy heart, when talking with Anora my Warden realizes she doesn't want to lose him so she gives Anora the throne, executes Loghain and keeps Alistair as a Warden.
Also, he is not that good of a leader either, he showed how his paranoia for Orlais can doom Ferelden.
The cool thing is that you actually role play and follow your Warden's personality, and not that you spare or kill him for personal reasons as a player.
Edit: By the way...yes, bye Hawke in the Fade 😂 (too bad, I like him a lot too, but I like my Warden more, so she has to be happy with Alistair).
My warden (who is a male human mage) had headaches from Alistar's constant whining and after seeing Loghain's gigachad aura he recruited him without secons thought
I have started playing DA:O a while ago, and before the confrontation I was thinking that I should kill Loghain for what he has done. But before the confrontation, there were NPCs tellling my character that he was a good man, and tbh I hesitated, because it seemed that he was not as bad as we thought. Still, I let Alistair kill him, become the king and marry my character (because I don't want Alistair to be the one in the Fade in DA:I and I want to be queen lol).
But honestly speaking, even after the choice I made, I still think that Loghain deserves to be spared. I really hope that BioWare could make the option that the player can both spare Loghain and not let Alistair leave the party, instead of the 'either Loghain or Alistair' thing.
But that's the point, you have to make a choice that really matters, and that is what makes this quest so cool.
@@SeventhheavenDK True, but my point is I wish there is a more “Paragon” option. Instead of one party dying, we could have a peace between both, like how it is done in the Mass Effect series.
There is an option that keep Alistair both alive and not exiled with Loghain still alive.
You have to marry him to Anora while he is "hardened" and make sure that Alistair is not your champion to fight Loghain (or else Alistair will take things into his own hands and kill Loghain no matter what you had planned).
You then can have Alistair leave the party but stay alive and in power and have Loghain join you in the late game. Alistair will even say he isn't angry anymore with the Warden during the coronation proceedings if Loghain slays the ArchDemon and dies in the process.
It's interesting since recruiting Loghain is the most merciful and simultaneously cruelest thing you can do during Origins because of how your mercy is perceived by Alistair.
@@kraziiXIII You can't have "softened" Alistair become king if Loghain is alive. "Softened" Alistair will refuse to marry Anora, so your options are:
1. Make Alistair the sole ruler of Ferelden, in which case he will automatically execute Loghain and imprison Anora.
2. Make Anora the sole ruler, in which case she will demand either Alistair's execution or exile to prevent future uprising.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 I mispoke. I meant "hardened". My bad, I will change it.
Loghain is my favorite character across all Bioware games. I want to add a ME comparison to add some extra thoughts.
Alistair will want revenge and justice and I compare his feelings to Garrus in ME2 for his loyalty mission. The paragon move in ME2 is to not let Garrus take the kill shot because Sidonis is already paying for his decisions, which were made because he was being threatened. Imo, I think this shows death doesn't always equal justice as that view will make you cold and see things more binary. While in the case of Loghain he may not be one for regrets he will pay the rest of his life as a Gray Warden which in my mind is justice as that is still a punishment, just one that actually services the well-beings others and not just the feelings of some. Killing him imo is rather short sighted and vain, even if it's for our good bud Alistair.
I do love that this choice and all other DA choices aren't seen as "paragon" or "renegade". Good things can happen either way but you decide what was best way to get there based on your actual thoughts or what your characters thoughts are.
You maga?
100% with you there.
I agree with your analysis of Loghain. But I feel like not executing him leads to a pretty dangerous path: Just because someone is capable, his crime can be overlooked. If Loghain is not a decorated general but just another prick noble, then he should die? but since he can still contribute to Ferelden, so he should survive? Short term wise, sure, it will benefit the fight against the blight. But I fear what this action might cause long-term damage.
Most of his "crimes" actually benefitted Ferelden. The remaining few - while ending up poorly - were performed with good intention.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 sure, my point is not about his crime or his intention, just the fact that him being a general shouldn't influence his punishment. If you think what he has done doesn't deserve death, which is fine, then recruit him is OK. But if he deserve excution, which I think so, then his "future contribution" should be irrelevent.
@@jimericsun The fact that he was a skilled warrior and a veteran general _is_ the very reason why Riordan wanted to recruit him.
"The teyrn is a warrior and general of renown. Let him be of use. Let him go through the Joining."
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 That is exactly the reason I feared. A skilled warrior and a veteran general can commit crimes while others cannot.
@@jimericsun Uh, what? Did you think all those highwaymen, thugs and bandits we encountered in the game were all skilled warriors and veteran generals?
Anyone can commit crimes, given the circumstances.
I personally struggle to want to spare him, and the blessing of foresight being the primary motivation for even considering it.
From my perspective, the ends are less important than the means one chooses to reach them. I judge him based on the choices he made, and the deaths he caused. While my first reaction to knowing that his goals were noble was to judge him less harshly, I've come to realize that those who have noble goals without any sort of noble principles have the potential for greater death and destruction than the typical evil villain. A good cause can drive people to dark acts out of desperation, and Loghain seemed almost eager to cross that line from the beginning.
Even in the real world, most of the worst atrocities humans have visited upon themselves were motivated by what they saw as a noble goal.
In this case, I know he will use his 2nd chance to good effect ahead of time, but without that knowledge, I can only assume he's just one "noble goal" away from making the same bloody mistakes again. Execution should be reserved for those who have murdered and will likely murder again - not as revenge for the dead, but justice for those who live.
If I may ask, which of his actions did you find troubling?
Love your videos🙏
Let's not forget that Loghain also refused to wait for the Orlesian Wardens to reinforce their army and paid Jowan to poison Eamon, Loghain retreated from Ostagar because he knew the Redcliffe reinforcements were not coming and wanted to stop the Orlesian Wardens from crossing the borders.
It's not as if the darkspawn would wait for Orlais reinforcement to arrive. In fact, Riordan suspected they chose Ferelden precisely because they knew the country was vulnerable (minimal Grey Warden presence).
And Loghain only retreated because it was too late to charge in. By the time the signal came, most of the king force and the Grey Wardens would have been dead already. There weren't enough men to keep the horde occupied for the flanking charge to succeed.
Loghain would be risking _thousands_ of fresh soldiers, just to save _hundreds_ who might be too injured to fight another battle.
Besides, victory at Ostagar would ultimately amounts to nothing because the archdemon was absence. Even if they managed to kill every darkspawn at Ostagar - and I doubt they could - what then? *The Blight would still continue* and ten thousands or so casualties means _nothing_ to the darkspawn - not when *the Fifth Blight horde was so great it surpassed any of the previous Blights (Codex entry: Stalata Negat.* This is a grave news, considering the First Blight alone had enough darkspawn to wage war against all of Thedas for 190 years.
Hey Dan, love your videos! I really like watching your videos where you explore rare choices in Mass Effect and Dragon Age. I have a suggestion regarding your Dragon Age Origins videos. Since the player character is unvoiced, the only way to tell what dialogue options you are selecting is by looking at what option you select on the bottom, but the text is absolutely TINY. It makes it nearly impossible for me to watch these videos on my phone because I can't read the text at the bottom. For future Dragon Age Origins videos, would you consider using a mod that lets you change the size of the text, so you can make that text bigger? I've used a mod on Nexus called "FtG UI Mod - More Readable Fonts and UI" and it works pretty well.
For my “canon” playthrough my warden was a dwarven noble who murdered his brother due to Bhelan’s manipulations rather than framed for it. After regretting it almost immediately he viewed his joining of the wardens as a way to attone for his actions and took a very pragmatic approach to his role after Ostagar, bringing peace to the elves and werewolves, saving the mages alomg with recovering the anvil to create new golems and even crowning Bhelan king (with some degree of family loyalty admittedly) despite what he did to me.
When it came time to decide Loghain’s fate I spared him (with Alistair becoming king with Anora) as I had been in his shoes before to a degree and offered him the same chance I had as well as for his skill as a general would benefit the wardens as they rebuilt. He survived the battle with my warden undergoing the ritual and slaying the archdemon personally.
In inquisition my inquisitor had him stay behind in the fade dying a hero whilst helping save the country he despised the most.
I'm surprised you would support Bhelen while playing as a Dwarf Noble. That was quite pragmatic.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 It was a combination of family loyalty, a desire to have my son in the royal family to some degree and an idea that "If he can pull off something that conniving to get 2 rivals to eliminate themselves then maybe he can actually get something done around here."
I can't say my character even held a grudge against Bhelan more of a grudging respect and a realisation that at the end of the day it was my own pride and arrogance that blinded me to his scheming (my warden really was a prick before his exile).
@@darman12able I agree, if you can look past any personal hatred, Bhelen is pretty much better than Harrowmont in almost every way:
1) He encourages more trade and cooperation with the surface, unlike Harrowmont who wish to isolate the dwarves despite fighting a losing battle against darkspawn.
2) He gives job to the casteless; Harrowmont would sooner ignore the slum until a plague breaks out.
3) He's young and ruthless, able to keep the others in check; while Harrowmont is old and naive, he might just die anytime - that is, if someone didn't stab him in the back first.
4) He spares no expense in building a statue to honor you; unlike Harrowmont who was accused of cutting cost.
5) He refuses to give you up when you went missing; whereas Harrowmont did not hesitate to declare you dead.
I wish more people could be half as pragmatic as you and deduce the reason behind Loghain's actions. Sadly, most people only saw that he was a traitor who betrayed his king and country.
That's a True Pragmatist warden damn
I'm REALLLLY anticipating/hope for a video "Hawk or Alistair/Loghain"
I always want to make a world state where Loghain lives so I have him in the fade in DAI, but I always end up killing him at the lands meet because I always forget about the slavery thing.
Edit: Also because in my current worldstate, I had my Cousland marry Anora, do the dark ritual, basically making Kieran the heir to Fereldan since Anora never has a kid. Wanted to have Alistair in DAI as a Warden, and that meant Loghain had to die.
You've convinced me Dan I'll give the guy a chance. Incidentally that's a good idea you've come up with, how to setup that scenario where Alistair and Anora marry and Loghain lives.
I decided my warden was dead set on killing Loghain purely because of the elf slavery. She’s a Dalish warrior who wants to do everything she can to free her people and bring them out of poverty. She can understand the abandonment of Calin’s army but not slavery. I love role playing as someone with a strict moral code that doesn’t necessarily follow their companion’s moral code, makes for interesting dialogue choices.
I know it's an old vid but now that I just stumbled upon it I gotta comment.
Yes, of course you should spare Loghain, if not for redemption, then because he's an absolute asset. You have the wiki, you can read all the terrible stuff he's been through.
an interesting fact we have to keep in mind is that many of Loghains crimes were orchestrated by howe Anora even alludes to this
that doesn't absolve him however but I think he should survive the events of DAO
Not really? Torturing the nobles was probably on Howe, but the rest were under Loghain's command - or at least with his knowledge.
Still doesn't change the fact that he was drive by patriotism, and not greed.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 exactly he’s not like howe
Loghain’s arc ends well with him sacrificing himself against the archdemon, I think
From my understanding, Ostagar is not Cailan's fault alone. Pretty much everyone underestimated the number of dark spawns. And Loghain also wanted a decisive victory before any Orleanian troops can arrive.
An amazing thing about this game's story is that everyone is limited by their own perspective and tries to do what they think is the best.
The Grey Wardens were also at fault.
They had ONE job, and *they forgot - or neglected - to share that darkspawn can tunnel past defences through underground.* Did it never occur to them that the hole under the Tower of Ishal was _probably_ dug by the darkspawn?
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 How would the Wardens know there WAS a hole under the tower of Ishal? Just a note. It was Loghain's men who were 'scouting' the Tower of Ishal. In fact, posted a guard there when you first arrive to make sure nobody else goes in. That the darkspawn live underground and tunnel is hardly a warden secret.
And, indeed, the lower chambers were likely swarming with darkspawn when they surveyed them (if the darkspawn DUG the tunnel, there's no reason they'd not have surfaced through it, darkspawn are NOT secretive, even when led by the Archdemon).
Which makes it seem like Loghain's men saw the hole, on his orders, secured the area AROUND the tower (preventing all entry), didn't let anyone know about the darkspawn right in the area the wardens were supposed to use to light the beacon.
@@kannbrown65 Why wouldn't they know, when our Warden could learn about the hole not 5 minutes after arriving at Ostagar?
And may I remind you that *Grey Wardens can sense the darkspawn. They would know if there were darkspawn in the tower when Loghain's men surveyed it.*
And wrong again, darkspawn CAN be secretive, with or without the archdemon.
They tricked your Warden into believing Redcliffe was the target when the horde was marching to Denerim. They also caught the Wardens off-guard in the beginning of Dragon Age Awakening.
Made me start playing this game and good timing too. Didn't have a good gaming rig till later on so I ended up playing it on the ps3 and boy what a difference does it make
First play I had no idea Loghain could have such an arc across the series. Next play I went with it and now it is my preferred canon. He is the sacrifice instead of Hawke in Inquisition, and that just feels so correct to me. Also, if you have him do the ritual with Morrigan DAO and she brings her son to Skyhold you can even sneak up on a dialogue between Loghain and her in the garden where is he asking something like 'so that is the child'.
Inquisition did Loghaine dirty man that looks awful
Finally i have found a channel that saves me from replaying entire series of games :D
I think having Jowan poison Arl Eamon is a pretty big deal as well.
The way (unhardened) Alistair acted during the whole becoming king and especially Loghain affair made me flip from liking him to disliking him alot, making him the only party member I did not like, including even Loghain. He was just incredibly short-sighted unreasonable and put his own feelings about what's best for everybody else, including going against even what Duncan would have wanted aswell. I felt like executing him myself for all that.
This is what I did on my first (and so far only) play through, so I guess I've missed a lot of Alistair content!
The older I get the more I understand Loghain and his actions. Ever since that first time I allowed him to live and we became besties, was the time he became my fave😅😂
I should play DA Inquisition...
One awsome thing you can do is save the DLC Return to Ostagar for the end, and go with Loghain to there. His dialogs are very interesting.
I've done it before, there's an achievement for it (which I haven't unlocked yet on the Steam version), but I normally make Alister & Anora rule together. Got this game with all DLC on Steam for $10, great price
Great video Dan! My game doesn't look as good as yours even on the highest graphical settings, do you use any mod? If so can you tell?
You missed some big ones Dan. He struck a deal with the rebellious malafacarum leading to the fall of the tower with all that death. Also he poisoned Eamon making him partially responsible for the chaos in Radcliffe.
Having any character voiced by Simon Templeman in my party is enough for me.
Loghain is easily one of if the both most compelling characters in all of dragon age.
I understand your reasoning and it reminds me of the dilemma choosing Bhelen (modern, open to the surface, but a ruthless murderer) or Harrowmont (honorable but old-fashioned and failing as a king). Esp. as I read the novel "The Stolen Throne" and know Loghain's backstory, I completely understand the motivation of his actions. I have sympathy for the man, I really do. Yet, he has gone too far with his treason and treachery. Sometimes decisions must not be pragmatic but symbolic.
Losing Alistair is a very high price for gaining an experienced general for the Wardens. And I'm not ready to pay this price more than once (achievement hunting). I'd rather create a world state in Dragon Age Keep with Loghain alive to watch him die another time.
Keeping him for future content is 100% the correct decision. That said I couldn’t bring myself to do it until my like 4th play through. Keeping him and making Alister king is the best decision for the timeline.
Do you plan to mak videos about DA awakening? thanks for the good vidoes.
Loghain also poisoned Arl Eamon and convinced Uldred to try and take over the Circle, likely to get rid of Templars, who are mostly loyal to Chantry in Orlais.. These two crimes lead to two more huge catastrophes.. Wouldn't call them minor :D In fact, selling Alienage elves to slavery is smaller crime than both of these..
To spare or to kill Loghain was one of the hardest decisions for me. The other hardest decision was to spare or to kill the Architect
I always keep Loghain around to sacrifice for Hawke, because it was Loghain's fault Hawke had to flee Lothering, thereby setting Hawke on the road that culminates with him ending up facing down the Nightmare. Having Loghain sacrifice himself to save a Ferelden refugee just feels right.
When it came time to kill or spare Loghain in my first playthrough, it ultimately boiled down to me really, REALLY not wanting to kill him. I mean, yeah, he had to pay for his crimes but I wasn't a fan of just offing him on the spot either.
I also had every intention to romance Alistair during the same playthrough so yeah, him leaving was a kick in the teeth. Though honestly, seeing that Loghain ends up doing some good with the second chance the player gives him... yeah, I don't think I'd change a thing in retrospect except maybe trying to steer Al more towards marrying Anora.
*I wish they had toned down Loghain's evil actions a bit more* by letting it be Howe who does all the super evil things behind his back, taking advantage of his lack political of savvy, so his most major crime is just Ostagar, which most likely was the correct decision military-wise. Would have made him alot more interesting as a character in just Origins alone. Finding out more about his backstory would have helped alot too. He had the *potential to be an excellent tragic antagonist,* rather than looking cartoonishly evil for most of the time and then only scratching the surface a little and turning around partially at the very end. Just imagine his backstory for hatred for the Orlesians being similarly well established over the course of Origins as Fenris' hatred for mages is in DA2 and then also finding out that alot of the very evil crimes you thought he had done being actually Howe and him having good reasons for Ostagar aswell.
*There's an important detail about Loghain's betrayal of Cailan aswell that doesn't get mentioned alot:* Loghain, a very skilled strategist, was certain that they couldn't defeat the darkspawn there no matter what and would have only lost their entire army instead, resulting in a military disaster for Ferelden. That's why he tried to talk Cailan out of it the entire time, but when that failed he cut his losses and sacrificed Cailan, who was basically like a son to him and would have preferred to not kill him, in order to do what he thought was best for Ferelden, which is to not leave it without an army during the blight.
Right or wrong, Loghain at the very least thinks he had no other choice than to betray Cailan for Ferelden and if he had had a choice, he would have kept Cailan alive aswell.
i let Loghain live so that i can sacrifice him in DA:I. couldn't handle choosing between hawke and alistair. Excited to see how things will turn in dreadwolf with the choices i made in game where all the previous protags alive just to see what they are doing past their stories.
What annoys me is the 10 character save limit on dragon age origins, I listed permutations base on class,weapon,race, origin, and gender. I probably wouldn't be able to try them all but could definitely play through more than ten. Dragon age keep also has a limit of 10 world states I think.
"Should you SPARE LOGHAIN?"
Me: No. Never. Ever. EVER. F*** that guy.
Honestly I have long since considered sparing Loghain in one of my playthroughs where I decide to jointly marry with Anora as a human noble, but there are crimes he has committed that have been brushed over in this video.
Loghain did allow the Denerim elves to be sold into slavery, but he also hired a blood mage to get rid of his biggest threat, which, by itself is simple politics, but this indirectly led to him slaughtering the innocents of Redcliffe.
He was also indirectly responsible for the slaughter of the Circle, as he said he would free them all if they simply worked with him, which very likely was a lie considering we've seen how difficult it is to give mages any rights within this series. Even a mage warden can't manage to scrap up any rights for their magi brethren after saving the damned world!
I love him as a character, he is extremely well written, but he has done quite a lot to harm to Ferelden and it's people.
1) *He didn't have much choice; he needed the fund to equip the army.* Either Loghain sacrifice one alienage to give Ferelden a chance to survive...or he stick to ideals and risk losing the nation to the darkspawn.
*Some would argue that he had himself to blame for starting the Civil War, but that was not his fault.* When Loghain declared himself the regent, he had the support of the Queen, many nobles and most citizens. It was legitimate. The ones who started the war were those who opposed this majority decision.
*They refused to follow the veteran general, while the country was at war.*
2) *The tragedy in Redcliffe was caused by several people, not just Loghain.* His poisoning of Eamon through Jowan wouldn't even be possible if it weren't for Isolde's (and - quite possibly - Eamon's) ploy to hide Connor magical talent. And Loghain didn't slaughter the villagers; that was on Connor and the demon.
3) *The one who claimed Loghain would give freedom to mages was Uldred - and he wasn't someone we can trust.*
Investigations revealed that Uldred had been quietly encouraging his fellow Libertarians to break away from the Chantry and introducing blood magic to those he deemed useful to his ambitions. To deflect suspicions, he often betrayed these mages by revealing them to the authority (Dragon Age- World of Thedas Volume 2 page 111).
@@brahmantyoihsan5938
Loghain could have left the control over to Anora, whom of which the entire nation knew was ACTUALLY running the country during Cailan's rule, Loghain especially. He never had to declare himself as regent to begin with and simply became counsel for Anora during the war. Doing this probably would have led to MUCH less backlash from the nobility.
Also the keyword in my phrasing is that Loghain had /indirectly/ caused the tragedies of the Circle and Redcliffe. Just like Teagan had told Isolde as she tried to blame it all on Jowan, they both are equally to blame for the tragedy, and Jowan was merely a proxy for Loghain.
Uldred also was confirmed to be working for Loghain, it's canon that he easily would have managed to convince the Circle to ally with Loghain if Wynne simply didn't survive and live to tell the Circle the truth. While Loghain was seeking to use Uldred for his magic against the war, Uldred was also attempting to use Loghain to abolish the Circle and free all mages. If Loghain was never open to working with the idea of him, Uldred wouldn't have advocated for allying with him, Wynne wouldn't have had to expose Uldred, and Uldred wouldn't have attacked alongside his allies which led to the Circle falling apart. The event COULD have happened at a later time, but the trigger of it happening to begin with was Loghain.
@@thegoddessofluck4031
1) *He declared himself a regent, not a king; world of difference.* A regent authority is only temporary, and they were appointed because the current ruler is indisposed or incapable of handling the current situation.
Anora could handle day-to-day ruling well enough, but Ferelden was at war with the darkspawn and she had no experience in warfare. That's why he declared himself regent - so he could make all the strategic decisions swiftly without waiting for Anora's approval. Anora herself certainly did not object to this, as you can see in the cutscene following the Wardens departure from Flemeth's hut.
2) *By that reasoning, we could blame many more individuals or groups who were "indirectly" responsible for Redcliffe incident,* and that includes:
-Uldred, for introducing Jowan to blood magic.
-Irving, for being tricked by Uldred.
-Lily, for telling Jowan of the plan to make him tranquil.
-Mage Warden, for helping Jowan destroy his phylactery.
-Gregoir and the Templars, for failing to stop Jowan's escape.
-The Chantry, for perverting Andraste's words and ostracizing the mages.
-The Seekers of Truth, for breaking their promise to Inquisitor Ameridan not to abuse the Rite of Tranquility and for sharing the method to the Circle.
Wow, so many people and groups were "indirectly" responsible for Redcliffe incident. Involuntary manslaughter charges for everyone! - if that was even a thing in Thedas.
But I think we can agree that *if Loghain should be charged for "indirectly" causing Redcliffe incident, then those people should be charged too - in proportion to their respective part, of course.*
3) Uldred confirmed to be working with Loghain? How so? Because he advocated for him?
*The testimony of one man - who was proven to be a liar - was hardly reliable and couldn't serve as an evidence.* You need to present something more concrete than that.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 Saying that Uldred wasn't working for Loghain because he's a liar is a very far stretch considering Loghain is also a liar who starts out the game's plot by lying and saying the Grey Wardens murdered their King.
Also Loghain specifically had hired Jowan to do this task. Sending an assassin to kill someone and that assassination leads to a series of events that led to almost an entire village of people getting slaughtered is a way bigger role than any of the other groups of people you mentioned.
I have upfront said this: I like Loghain as a character, I also believe he's a VERY WELL written character as well, so I'm not very sure at the amount of stretches you're pulling to try to clear Loghain of so much guilt than even the man himself was ready to die for doing.
@@thegoddessofluck4031 1) *What I take issue with is* not the fact that Uldred was a liar (though it did lower his credibility) but rather *your claim which was build solely on one man testimony.* There's no evidence to prove that Loghain was working with Uldred. For all we know, Uldred could be making one-sided claims about Loghain promise to free the mages; or he might even be telling the truth. *We may never know, because there's not enough evidence.*
2) Do you think Uldred introducing blood magic to Jowan did not "lead to a series of events" where he escaped and felt desperate enough to poison Eamon?
Do you think the Chantry's strict rules did not "lead to a series of events" where Uldred joined the Libertarians and conspired to break away from the Circle?
Do you think Cailan's insistence to fight on the frontline did not "lead to a series of events" where Loghain was forced to abandon him to preserve the army and poison Eamon to prevent him from dividing the country?
*Each one of these triggers "lead to a series of events."* You said that Loghain's role was way bigger than the others, but I disagree because - just like everyone else - he was driven by circumstances. The one who had the biggest role was the demon - or Connor for letting it possess him. They were "directly" responsible for the deaths in Redcliffe.
3) *The fact that Loghain was willing to die for what he did does NOT mean people weren't exaggerating his crimes.* The severity of a crime was largely determined by the intention behind it. This is how we separate things like voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter: both crimes resulted in death, but they have different punishment.
Do you believe Alistair was right to demand Loghain's death in tantrum, knowing full well Duncan - the man he tried to avenge - wouldn't approve of this?
"I am sorry, but a Grey Warden's duties take precedence even over vengeance."
*(Duncan in Human Noble prologue)*
The most difficult apsect in this decision for me is that Alistair is one of my the most favourite characters in Dragon Age Origins and I feel like betraying him with this final decision with Loghain.
Top, jogo esse jogo desde 2014, e nunca decidi perdoar o Loghain. Sei de todos os outros fins e escolhas, mas esse me deu um ponto de vista ao qual eu concordo, mt foda como sempre.
Seriously...every time you make a "choice" in bioware games(apart from DA origins) the only thing that changes in that, that person is being replaced by someone else while things are happening the exact same way.......
Excellent video!! While I don’t do it in every playthrough, my canon worldstate is a mage who spares Loghain after breaking up with Alistair.
Re: the slavery thing, I don’t think it makes sense for his character at all. He’s selling ferelden citizens into slavery…because they’re poor elves? When he was the poor farmer who created the Night Elves and is one of the few people early game who treats an elf/mage/dwarf warden with the full respect a Cousland gets. Idk I could talk about Loghain all day
Nice video big Dan. I still prefer to kill loghain because I cannot forgive his crimes. I do not want to lose a loyal friend like Alstair.
So loyal, he would abandon you and the Grey Wardens out of tantrum?
I saved Loghain once. Alistair married off to Anora (King and Queen) And turned Morrigan down - Loghain was sacrificed to the Archdemon. That is the only way he's temporarily spared.
my first (and my cannon) playthrough allistair became the wandering drunk. he was my bro and i love him, but i stand by it bc its his own fault for being a baby over what i felt was a very cut and dry decision for the good of everyone lol
he was more than welcome to keep being a grey warden right along with us, but he made his choice
How could I forgive what Logain did, he betrayed the king, he sent Arl Eamon to poison him knowing that without Eamon the grey guards would be powerless against him, he did many other things, how could I forgive all that? In my games he will always be dead, I could not choose otherwise.
My own opinion before watching the video is that one of the best outcomes is Alister ending up as a drunk, and Loghain killing the Archdemon and dying. That way you're not doing a dubious ritual, and both you and Alister survives. Alister might hate you for it, but he is still alive to hate you.
interesting idea, I think I will do that on my next playthrough of the game though being sure Alistair survives and rule with Anora.
Personally my favorite outcome is to make the Warden marry Alistair so she becomes Queen of Ferelden and Grey Warden Commander, just love the ring of those titles together lol
He betrayed his King, his sentence is death.
I personally always spare him in Origins and sacrifice him in Inquisition. At that point he's an old man, and I believe that in his ultimate act, his memory is solidified. He may have made a lot of enemies in his life, but he died a hero.
My toxic trait is that I believe he deserved to die like a hero, and not a paranoid general he seemed to be in the Origins
Also, how would it be seen putting a half elven King on a throne? All showings and mentions of Alistair suggest he never had a kid, but neither does Aura. Either Aura is barren or the mention by Alistair that having children as a Warden are rare to start with. It is sad that they never wrote any means that he has a kid outside of conceiving one with Morrigan. It is why I ended up deciding to put Alistair on the throne alone due to being sure there is an heir to the throne out there. As we see it is likely that kid even if Morrigan doesn't want it is destined to become King of Feraldan. Which given the half elven part of Alistair would be interesting in the boy.
So the reason I admit I am reluctant to spare Loghain isn't because I don't think he deserves redemption. But because I am afraid of Alistair becoming a wandering drunk.
Can we extend to the other dragon age games too?
He's something of a scientist himself
On the top of my mind, one memorable big bad guy becoming a friend is in Chrono Trigger, an old but awesome jrpg.
From the beginning, you mainly battle Magnus, a powerful sorcerer that want to summon a creature that will end the world.
When you finally confront him, he has a lot of similarities to Loghain. He thought he was the only one good enough to handle the job to kill said monster and he was trying to summon him before he got powerful enough to destroy the world. While you eventually fail to thwart his attempt, he also fails at killing the beast and he realize he's out of his league. You can then either kill him for his transgressions or take him in your party despite your party beef against him.
With time he doesn't become super friendly, but his intentions are in the right place. He's s very dedicated and powerful party member that joins very late in game.
Some of the best vilains known in storytelling are the ones that have good intentions, but twisted means due to circumstances.
Magus
@@SeventhheavenDK i knew it was one or the other, i took a chance and failed 😅
After reading The Stolen Throne, it's far easier for me not to look at Loghain as a villian and spare him
Do you remember when Bioware used to give us these games with such detailed options? Like holy shit. I hope that is the same case with the upcoming ME4 and DA4
In DA:I, loghain admits to betraying the wardens
Big Dan "how many games let you be bestis with the main antagonist" (loghain) archdemon "and what am I chopped liver?"
Dan are you aware that you can get alistar as king with Loghain as a warden?
Did they ever patch the ending where if you choose to marry Anora and keep Alistair alive you'll actually be recognized as the king-consort and then the import to awakening will finally recognize that?
1:17 If I spare Loghaine then Allister will leave my party, and I don't want that to happen because he's wearing some of my best gear and he won't give it back before he leaves.
I was already planning to spare him anyway, on my current playthrough, cuz I've only spared him on the xbox and I want the achievement on origin too 🤣
This was an amazing look into possible ways his story could play out.
In a sense you can give Loghain a sort of "Zuko Style " redemption ark 😆
it ain't similar to zuko, zuko was always good at heart and never did any of the evil stuff that loghain did
@@sawjjiw loghain had noble intentions as well and just did what he thought was best.. same as zuko. The difference being loghain wasn't being told to do what he did
@@elusivegaming3968 noble intentions won't excuse slavery, killing couslands, leaving the king to die when you could've defeated the darkspawn horde with the element of surprise, it won't excuse trying to make a bad name for a good cause like the gray wardens, imprisoning your daughter, lying to the whole ferelden, loghain is to the blame for the death of lothering, he also poisoned eamon the arl of redcliff, the man was a monster
Loghain is a prime example of the morally ambiguous setting Bioware crafted for Dragon Age. Logain was a patriot, but he did a lot of nasty stuff to bring an unruly country in line. He fled Ostagar because he knew the fight was doomed, a decision that was made easier given the fact he didn't seem to like his son-in-law all that much.
His counterpart, Eamon is made to be a more noble man, but my opinion of him lowered once I understood he insisted Alistair be made king because he merely wanted the Theirin bloodline to continue to rule.
The decision to spare Loghain , as Dan says, can be seen through a logical lens or an emotional. Notice how Alistair's response to the mere thought of sparing him and making him a Warden is a purely emotional one. He's letting his anger and attachment to the late Duncan justify having him executed. In other words, he's making it personal. Riordan, on the other hand, as a more senior Warden takes the logical choice and actually encourages Loghain taking up the Joining (knowing it could kill him), putting aside whatever feelings he may have harbored at that point. He understands the archdemon is the true threat and sees Loghain as an asset that can lead the armies. Honestly, at that point Riordan should've pulled rank and ordered Alistair to be silent.
I'm also of the opinion that Duncan would've acted just like Riordan. I mean, the Warden is basically a criminal in 3 out of the six origins.
I would never be Logan's friend. In my story I was going to spare him though not because I wanted to but because we were at the landmeet and had alot of eyes on us I felt that it would do us good to try to do damage control from all the lies he told about us to get people seeing us in a better light. But Alistair was like forget that and beheaded him anyways 🙄 boyfriends, but shockingly nothing bad came from us beheading him in front on his daughter you know the queen 🤔
I could not disagree more.
First, you leave out some important information regarding what happens at Ostagar: Everything that happens there was a direct result of Loghain's plan. Cailan's biggest mistake was listening to Loghain. Duncan had requested reinforcements from the Orlesian Grey Wardens. From Return to Ostagar, we know that King Cailan had been in touch with Empress Celene to send Orlesian troops. Bann Tegan was preparing his army to send in support. Tegan's army would never have arrived, but Loghain doesn't know that. Loghain counseled Cailan not to wait. Yes, Cailan was overconfident, but going to battle with an understaffed Gray Warden contingent and an undersized army was Loghain's idea. The army was underprepared and undersized because Loghain planned it that way.
The tactics used in the battle - split the army in half, wait for the darkspawn to be drawn in, use the other half to flank in a pincer movement - this was Loghain's plan, a plan that had him standing back at a safe distance while King Cailan and Duncan, both of whom were in Loghain's way politically, were on the battlefield. His excuse - the signal came too late, so it was too late to send in his troops - is a bare-faced lie. Either he could see the battle clearly enough to make this decision without needing the signal - in which case he chose not to send in reinforcements at the right time - or he couldn't see the battlefield clearly (we can't see in the cutscene), and had already decided before the battle to hold back his troops.
What was his motivation? One possibility is that he genuinely thought this was the best way to defeat the darkspawn, in which case he's badly incompetent, and should not be trusted to lead a scout troop, let alone an army. Or he saw Cailan and Duncan as being in his way politically, and he planned to get them killed. Given that Arl Howe was allied with him, the more reasonable conclusion is, in my opinion, that the attack on the Couslands was part of a coup orchestrated by Loghain and Howe, Teryn Cousland being a strong rival for Loghain's plan to take control of the country.
It isn't just that he got Duncan killed, though that is a big part of it. It's that he got Duncan, all of the other Grey Wardens, King Cailan, and all of Ferelden's troops (except, conveniently, those he personally commanded) killed. And because of this, the darkspawn horde that likely could have been stopped with twice the Grey Wardens and an army more than twice the size, overran not Just Ostagar, but Lothering as well, meaning the lives of all those innocents were his fault.
Either this was a coup - which I think is the conclusion that best fits the evidence - or Loghain was badly incompetent as a military leader. I don't believe the latter - he demonstrates too much savvy. He's a traitor who got Cailan, Duncan, the Ferelden Grey Wardens, most of Ferelden troops, and, in a cascade effect, the entire village of Lothering (and likely many others) killed. Did he believe Ferelden would be better under his command? Certainly. Does this matter? No. No matter what the motivation, his actions were evil.
My first time, and every time through, I kill him myself or have Alistair do it. When Inquisition came out, on second and subsequent playthroughs, I created a custom world state that had him still alive so I could feed him to the fear monster, because choosing between Alistair and Hawke was gutwrenching. Hawke or Loghain, on the other hand, was easy.
Loghain was evil. Having a somewhat relatable motivation doesn't change this. A person can be evil and care about his family, love his country, be personable and charming. No person is all one thing.
I like a good redemption story. The thing is, not every person who's done wrong deserves redemption. There are lines that, once you cross them, you can't come back; there isn't enough good you can put back into the world to balance the scales. Mass murder is one of them.
To quote the great philosopher Garrus Vakarian: "I'm all for second chances. Not so sure on third ones." By the time Loghain is proposed as a member of the Wardens, his on what, fifth or sixth? Choosing to do the right thing after you've lost completely isn't really choosing good, it's simple pragmatism.
Contrast Loghain with Sten. Sten killed an innocent family in a fit of rage. When he is caught, he admits he was in the wrong and subjects himself for judgment. His redemption arc is deserved. Blackwall does the same - admits to having been wrong, and submits himself for judgment. His redemption arc is deserved.
That said, I'm glad Loghain was written well enough that an argument in his favor, though I disagree with it, can be made. I like that he's written well enough to be likable during the endgame section, though to quote Red from Into the Woods, "Nice is different than good." Outside of Shakespeare, no villain thinks of himself as the bad guy; they all think they're the hero of the story. One of the wonderful things about Origins is how it's possible to see that Loghain believes this. I think he's wrong, that he's evil, but evil can be charming and likable, and sometimes useful, and that can be attractive.
Dang. Now I'm tempted to start a new playthrough. I've never had Wynne duel Loghain.
It goes further. Loghain and Howe are the reason only 2 of 6 armies made it to the battle. Eamon- poisoned by Loghain. Howe...well, that's obvious. Couslands, half of them killed by Howe, the other half, along with Denerim's troops, 'killed by bandits' on a scouting mission they were sent on by Loghain (who proceeds to give Denerim to HOWE despite, outside of one version of the City Elf origin, the Arl's SON was still alive to inherit).
And the Tower of Ishal was being 'secured' by Loghain's men before you are sent there to light the beacon, and yet is overrun by darkspawn when you get there, through a huge HOLE in the FLOOR. (Hard for his men to have missed that.)
This both delayed (and could well have prevented) the beacon's lighting AND means that darkspawn are coming at Cailan both from the front AND the rear, ensuring that even if the other troops had been there, and Loghain felt he had to join in, Cailan and his troops would probably have been slaughtered anyway.
@@kannbrown65 I'd like to add that Loghain was constantly changing the orders of the scouts, so they could'nt really find out about the strengh and the size of the darkspawn horde. Either he was an idiot or he wanted to let Cailan belive they could defeat the darkspawn in one single battle. One could say he warned him not to be on the frontlines, Loghain had no problem with it in the end. In addition to that when you ask the guard before the tower, there were no lower chambers when he was there when Loghain's men began to bring the tower under their controll.
The problem with this argument is that it paints Loghain as incompetent and if he was then you would need to explain how he became the hero of riverdane. Especially if you read Stolen Throne which is a book he features. He is shown to have great military knowledge and experience so this contradicts the idea that he was incompetent.
The early darkspawn battles were won because of Loghain which the king takes credit for, Duncan even mentions this. Cailen was overconfident.
A coup? I have seen this claim and not a single person has been able to provide proof which would be in the game. Cousland was betrayed by Howe alone. Howe was always bitter about things and believed he deserved more. The Elstans used to rule highever and were cousins to Howes but captain of the guard who was a Cousland took over and became the rulers. There was resentment. Plus Cousland had hanged Tendon Howes father for supporting Orlais.
Howe took advantage of the blight as Couslands were going to Ostagar so he made an excuse that his men were delayed so he could take the castle while the Cousland men marched south. This claim that Loghain was involved has zero evidence and is based on conspiracy and speculation, rather than facts.
Loghain has nothing to do with highever and the things he has something to do with, there is evidence for it. We know he was involved with Eamon poisoning and made promises to Uldred if they supported him after Ostagar. We know he sold slaves, We know he sent an assassin and denounced wardens as traitors. The thing is that we have proof for all these things and witnesses but yet zero for claims about a coup.
Loghain is not a good person, however I prefer to judge him on things he actually did and not things nobody has evidence of him doing.
Loghain wasn't intending to lose the battle or the king but the King has a mind of his own and wanted to play hero. Loghain objected to this but Cailen reminded him who is king.
The tower of ishal accusation that Loghain is behind the hole is another thing people are unable to provide proof for.
Some people believe Loghain had the hole dug but where is the equipment and why wouldn't anyone else have noticed? As this would be noisy and taken a long time to do.
It makes no sense for him to want darkspawn to overrun them. Why do you think he has men stationed there? To defend it. It's likely the hole was discovered but kept quiet as to not cause panic. When the darkspawn came through the hole they killed the men defending it and we know because when we go there, we see the bodies. The ogre at the top is eating them. Loghain wouldn't waste men for no reason.
He has no reason for wanting his own countrymen dead either.
I will say the accusations without evidence tend to come from people who didn't read the lore or the novels so they don't understand Loghain. Loghain is a patriot and is loyal to ferelden. He does what he thinks is right to protect ferelden at all costs. But as we see in the game, his decisions cause more harm, he believes he is saving ferelden but is destroying it. This is a much better explanation of his character and fits his background than the one you are making up. He is being called incompetent but at the same time he is also responsible for all these things. It reminds me of an author calling Putin incompetent and unimpressive but she also says he is responsible for all the things Russia does.
When you are explaining a villain, don't claim they're incompetent and don't claim they're geniuses. Loghain isn't incompetent or this mastermind where he is able to influence all politics.
"He is bad so he is responsible for this bad thing" isn't proof. We don't need to make stuff up to show how bad he was. We have enough proof of actual bad things he did to show he was bad.
If Loghain wanted the king dead, then all he had to do was encouraged the king to fight on the front lines and we see in the game that he is against this and didn't like Cailen playing hero. Cailen was not some saint either and was delusional that he would go down in history as some great hero.
Again for the tower, Loghain says he has a few men stationed there to light the beacon but it was Cailen who chose for 2 wardens to go there and Loghain then agrees to it.
Solas mentions that he had been dreaming in the fade and saw two sides which he says is true because from the wardens perspective Loghain was a traitor but he was also trying to save what men were left. We see some characters in the 3rd game who see him as a hero.
Another thing that's not taken into consideration is that darkspawn couldn't be predicted. Earlier battles fought against them were not the main force and they never understood how many darkspawn the main battle at ostagar had which was actually the main force. I would everyone underestimated the size of the horde and that includes the grey wardens who were making a poor decision to put themselves on the front lines. Luckily Cailen sent 2 to help with the beacon or else they all will get killed.
Is Loghain the bad guy? Definitely. However he is being blamed for stuff he didn't do and no evidence of it has come up. We play the game and we gather evidence for the things he has done to use against him.
Does he deserve to live? No, he had did many terrible things. I can criticise this character without adding in things he didn't do just to make him look evil, I think he is already evil enough and once you start selling people into slavery, you're already evil.
As I said, his intentions were to save ferelden but his actions harmed it. Good intentions doesn't make you good. Good intentions doesn't mean good actions either.
Howe himself was evil and was in it for himself, he already took the arling of denerim before Loghain arrived.
Howe had control over Amaranthine, Highever and Denerim which made him a useful ally for Loghain as there was nobody more powerful. Howe was also stealing from the treasury without Loghain's knowledge. Showing that he was always in it for himself. Many people misunderstood him as an agent of Loghain rather than someone who had his own ambitions and was in control of his own choices. Even the hiring of the Antivan Crows was his decision and Loghain was surprised but agreed to it. As he needed the wardens gone.
Nobody but the wardens were taking the blight seriously whig is why you spend the game recruiting allies. Some just believed it was a huge army of darkspawn and Howe says even if it's not a blight, it's still a big problem. Loghain is taking charge because he believes that he alone can save ferelden. That is why he is so determined but he fails to see the damage he is doing to the country he loves.
He is more of a complex villain than the black and white villain most portray him as because they didn't understand his character. He isn't doing bad things for the sake of being bad, he does them because he thinks he is saving ferelden. Solas is another villain who also has good intentions and his actions are causing harm but we will have to wait for the next game.
Loghain too was in a similar situation in Stolen Throne where he was the bait and the arl was going to abandon Loghain as a sacrifice.
"Where is the damned reinforcement? he thought, striking out at new enemies as they pressed forward. Even as he asked the question he knew the answer. They weren’t coming. It didn’t make sense for them to come. In fact, if he was in the Arl’s shoes right now, he wouldn’t come, either."
“Loghain is expecting us to reinforce him.” “He is expendable.” The Arl said the word with unease, but said it even so. Rowan stepped away from her father, frowning deeply. What he said wasn’t entirely a surprise, and yet still she felt disappointed. “We gave our word,” she protested. “He gave us the plan that is giving you your chance, and you’re going to abandon him?” “The part he is playing in his own plan,” her father sighed, “is that of the sacrificial lamb. Perhaps he didn’t realize it, but there it is.” He took hold of her gauntleted hand firmly, looking her straight in the eyes. “It’s a good plan. We must not waste it"
At ostagar Cailen is the one in this position while Loghain is in Arl Rendorn's (father of Rowan, Eamon, Teagan) position. He chose to retreat and save the remaining men. Loghain was saved because Rowan disobeyed orders.
“We might have been away by then,” the Arl snapped. Then he looked at Loghain and softened somewhat. “But . . . it is good that you live, lad. And your plan did succeed.” From Loghain, he turned toward Maric, frowning. “I would be happier, however, if our condition were not so poor. We have lost a great number of men and much equipment. Moving forward will be difficult.”
While Rowan saved Loghain they still lost many men and supplies but the plan worked. The situation was worse at ostagar as it was darkspawn and not orlesians. The reinforcements needed were too far away in Orlais. Even if they had redcliffe there, they were not going to win Ostagar was a lost cause. It was chosen as a base because of its defensive history. The king shouldn't have put himself in danger and was too into the belief that he would become a hero.
I roleplay different characters, I usually execute him for his crimes. I had a couple saves where he lives to see what happens and we saw that in inquisition. He is not needed as there is a new hero in ferelden. Grey wardens aren't missing out by not having him either. Inquisition choice you can sacrifice Shroud instead of Hawke and that's easier choice as Shroud doesn't have much character development.
@@SorceressWitch I'm not going to argue small points; I presented my argument on those already. I will, however, respond to some broader things.
First, I didn't invent anything. I drew conclusions based on the evidence as presented to the player in the game. I cited evidence, my line of reasoning, and my conclusions based on that. At no point did I make anything up.
Second, I specifically say, more than once, that I don't think Loghain is incompetent. I present that as one of two possible explanations and then dismiss it in favor of treason as the more reasonable explanation.
Third, my conclusions are based entirely on evidence from the game and a little bit of Inquisition (see below). I haven't read the books and don't care to. Charles Dickens wrote in one of his introductions to Little Dorrit that he wasn't going to discuss the story because everything he wanted to say in the story was already in the story. If it requires an external explanation, that is a flaw in the storytelling. The only story elements I care about are those that exist within the games themselves.
In DA: Inquisition, Solas reports getting two impressions, one of Loghain as a hero, and one of Loghain as a sneering villain. This is obviously a metatextual reference to the divide between those who see Loghain as a villain and as a tragic antihero. That said, when the cutscene plays, we see him literally sneering as Cailan, Duncan, and the army are destroyed. He literally sneers.
I always spare Loghain. I liked Alistair as a character up until the first time I played through the Landsmeet and he flipped out and threw a giant temper tantrum. He's almost as bad as Cailan in the end- "Joining the Wardens is an honor". There's a blight going on and he'd rather have his selfish way than do what's best for everyone. The senior Warden present wanted Loghain to join. I don't doubt if *Duncan* had some way of giving input he'd have wanted Loghain to join. More Wardens means more chances to end the blight since they're the only ones who can kill an archdemon. But no, let's throw that away for pure vengeance for one man, who had already started hearing the Calling and was going to have to go off and die in battle in the Deep Roads if the darkspawn didn't kill him during the blight anyway. (For the record, I liked Duncan a lot, but facts are facts.)
If Loghain had died in the duel it would be one thing, but I'm not about to execute the man right in front of his daughter.
I always let Alistair go off and be a drunk in Kirkwall since that's what he wants. Him running off like that just shows how little committment he had to the Wardens and what Duncan would have wanted. I don't like who he ended up being at all, I don't understand why most people like him as much as they do.
Alistair also had the gall to complain about your decision if you choose to kill Connor or sacrifice Isolde. And this was AFTER he pushed the burden of leadership onto you.
It's easy for him to say "joining the Warden is an honor" when he never had to make the hard choice that comes with it.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 that too! Now that you mention it, he complains any time you make a decision to gain power (theoretically to defeat the blight) that he sees as wrong, like defiling the sacred ashes or some of the other stuff. It actually makes it even worse that his line in the sand isn't "you defiled the sacred ashes", "you killed a child abomonation/sacrificed his mother to save him", "you let that magister use those elven slaves' life force to make you stronger". No, it's "I didn't get my way." I've let him get his way one time because I try to get all endings, and the best thing that came of it was letting him die in the Fade and Sera's subsequent remark, something like, "We lost Allistair. Lot of tears, there", presumably because of how many people irrationally think he's awesome.
You are forgetting that Alistair looked up to Duncan as a mentor and father figure, and his fellow Grey Wardens were like his brothers. He was neglected and abused his whole life until the day Duncan recruited him. He was happy and finally felt like he belonged only to lose everything 6 months later. He knows that it’s pragmatic to spare Loghain but he cannot bear dishonoring Duncan’s memory by letting his murderer join the organization he nearly destroyed. That’s why he takes sparing Loghain as a betrayal. As for your other complaints. Alistair was content to follow because it had been beaten into him from day 1 that leadership was not meant for him, and before the Blight he had never been given the opportunity to take on leadership roles. It’s not something he’s used to and he doesn’t desire power, so that’s why he wasn’t comfortable with the idea of being the one to take charge of ending the Blight despite being the Senior Warden. But that doesn’t mean he can’t voice his opinion or displeasure if he feels like the wrong decision was made. In Redcliffe he said killing the abomination is usually the only way to get rid of the demon, but he didn’t relish the idea of killing a child. And why should he approve of killing Connor, or sacrificing Isolde? Connor is his cousin and a child, and no one likes seeing a child die if there’s a way to save them. And despite the way Isolde treated him he didn’t want to see her die either because he cares about Eamon, and he knows Eamon would be devastated to wake up and find either Connor or Isolde dead. That’s why the best outcome is to save Redcliffe and save both Connor and Isolde by asking the Circle of Magi to help. In Haven why should he approve of the idea of poisoning the Ashes of Andraste? He’s Andrastian though he’s not overly religious, and the Ashes are sacred. Plus the Ashes was the only thing that would save Eamon. And why should he approve of you sparing the Magister and letting him use blood magic on you by sacrificing the remaining Elves? Did you forget that he trained as a Templar despite not completing his training? He hates blood magic, and he hates killing innocents as a means to an end.
@@sophiacousland3452 Except Duncan himself would have spared Loghain without a second thought. He said, and I quote, "I am sorry, but a Grey Warden's duties take precedence even over vengeance." *(Human Noble Prologue)*
It was Alistair who dishonored Duncan's memory by throwing away all responsibilities in favor of revenge.
It's easy to pursue to the ideal outcome when you know how things will turn out, but what if you never had the gift of hindsight? In my first playthrough, I chose to side with the Templars, thus making it impossible to get the mages' help to resolve Redcliffe issue. I only had two options available to me:
Option A - Kill Connor to save everyone.
Option B - Sacrifice Isolde and risk the mage we're sending into the Fade for a _chance_ to save Connor.
The second option is not even worth considering as there was no guarantee that our Mage would succeed. Worst case scenario, we lose all three lives instead of just one - maybe more if the demon acted out again. Even if I do obtain the mages' help, I would still choose to kill Connor to ensure the threat ends.
This is why I sympathized with Loghain: he didn't have the blessing of hindsight, yet he still tried to make the best decision with what he had. Antagonizing the Wardens turned out to be a fatal mistake, of course, but *Loghain had no way of knowing that a Grey Warden is needed to kill the Archdemon - not when the Wardens kept secret from their own recruits.*
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 In the beginning, yes I agree that he was doing his best with the limited knowledge he had and the circumstances he was in. But after Ostagar every action he took was vile and inexcusable. There is no defense for what he did and his past glory doesn’t exonerate him of his crimes. He hired Jowan to poison Eamon, sided with the snake Howe, sold Fereldan citizens to Tevinter Slavers for coin, and tried to have the remaining Grey Wardens killed numerous times.
I would spare him, but my issue is that you cannot still keep Alistair in your party. And for the future games I wish to make Kieran the son of his. It will probably have no great consequence, but I still think it would be an interesting scenario, to have the Old God child to be also a possible heir of Ferelden and the blood of Calenhad .