Tbh I never quite liked his whiny personality, and S&S is a worse tank than DW or Two-Handed warrior. Losing Alistair doesn't cost you much in term of gameplay, and I would trade him for Loghain any day of the week.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 Loghain is a better tank than Alistair, much better at drawing aggro and staying alive. My only issue with him is that he's so aggressive that he'll run well out of your range for healing or anything else if he spots an enemy in the distance. He's completely bonkers. XD
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 S&S worse tank then DW or 2h warrior? No. S&S, if built correctly, could tank a lot of attacks. Dual wield is best as an off hand/reserve tank, and 2H just sucks as a tank. This has been argued and proven that S&S tank warrior has the highest defense because you shouldn’t be investing into the Str stat except for what you need. The rest goes into Dex and not taking damage is always better than taking damage. Full investment into S&S tree, enough Str for your armor of choice whether it be Juggernaut armor set (probably the best choice), Effort or Will of the Divine (if you do desire to use but why?) with Shield of the Legion (No DLC), Warden Commander set (texture bugged for consoles while porting into Awakening), Cailan armor set, or super massive dragon plate armor set for that sweet sweet fire resistance (also another solid choice because +5 defense and I believe tied with both Cailan armor set and Juggernaut set as the best choice) and the only thing that could fulfill the role of tank better (although up for debate) is a Dex/Cun dual wield duelist rogue. Once you have whatever Str you need, dump every single point you get into Dex and laugh as anything short of a grab or magic won’t be able to kill you as S&S warrior. Alistair is almost built properly for early game tanking, his stats are thankfully easy enough to correct and Champion/Templar spec is actually good. Only drawback is that Champion/Reaver is better on the count that you can increase the damage you do over time, self heal as long as there’s dead bodies (shouldn’t have to rely on it but some encounters are just annoying enough that you might actually need it if you can use it), and any mages attacks/grabs (as long as it doesn’t kill you) become your UNO reverse card in terms of damage. However the one specialization you need as a warrior tank of any kind is Champion. Absolutely have to have it because of the Rally buff. Also defense > health which in turn means Dex > Con and since you need Dex for both S&S and dual wield warriors, those two are just better than 2h warriors.
@@TheGeoCheese I beg to differ. Even with the best shield (Bulwark of True King) and Shield Defense modal, a S&S warrior can only have 22 extra defense over a 2H warrior with similar stats. Defense doesn't do crap against spells, and you're still vulnerable to grab/stun/knockdown. You could activate Shield Wall to gain knockdown immunity, but then you'd lose 15 Defense, bringing the difference down from 22 to 7. 2H warriors can knockdown enemy much more often than S&S (Pommel Strike 10s CD vs Shield Bash 20s CD); they are immune to stun and knockdown with Indomitable (whereas S&S must activate Shield Wall instead of Shield Defense), and they have 50% chance to stun enemy with critical hits. DW warrior is even more broken since they can equip 3 Paralyze Rune on each daggers, activate Momentum and Double Strike, then attack normally. The sheer frequency of their auto-attack allows them to reapply Paralyze status immediately and disable even the most powerful enemies like Cauthrien and the Archdemon. Combine this with poisons + Flaming/Frost Weapon, and you'll also get a character with the strongest DPS in the game.
Loghain: "Which fate is worse, I wonder. To live as a slave or die without hope in the Alienage?" My Warden: "As someone who fought for freedom against Orlais, you of all people should know the answer to that question."
Purely in terms of dialogue, DAO is the best job Bioware has ever done. I never felt like I couldn't say what my character wanted to and many times I was surprised at how much they'd pre-empted.
who ever was in bioware that came up with this idea and whoever approve it desrves an award becuz being ble to get him as a party member where you can hear from the horses mouth as to why he did it and what made him hate the orlesians and his past and makes him one of my fav characters, and the last thing he says when hes volunteering for killling the archdemon is one of the most brilliant and genuine human moments ive ever seen in a game
I may be really late but loghain truly believed that what he was doing was best for the kingdom, he may have gone over the deep end a bit but think, all of what he was doing could have worked, he was just a terrible man
@@victoriasharpe1661 After sort of negotiating with the Warden over who should kill the archdemon, saying that the Warden shouldn't be the one to die as they led them to the victory against the archdemon and his own joining was a death sentence anyway so it's fitting he should die killing the archdemon, he begs the warden "please, I've done...so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right."
"I want to lose nothing else" hits hard. My man watched his dog die, then was forced to watch as his mother was raped and killed, then saw his father die in battle, then lost the woman he loved to his best friend, proceeded to lose said best friend, watched his wife die, had to sacrifice the life of his best friend's son because of said son's stupidity AND THEN was betrayed by his own daughter.
"To command an army, you have to be close enough to your men to know what you're risking, and still think of them as tools that might need to be thrown away." This line is what made me fall in love with this character. It's a perspective I haven't found in any other RPG before or since and actually made me feel a form of responsibility for the armies I called to aid me in the final battle in Denerim. And also "I'd recommend a sharp knife in the kidneys next time. Less impressive, but it gets the job done." Just for how much it made me laugh.
@@ohauss This is advice given to the Warden on how to lead the armies we have assembled before the final battle, not an attempt to justify his actions at Ostagar. Those are far weaker. It's meant in a general sense that can apply to any army in any battle. And even if he didn't live up to his own advice, that doesn't make the advice itself any less good.
@@trolldrool If u kept Logain in Inquisition and if u chose Hawke to stay in the fade he'll tell he/she that their a good leader and a good army and use them well
@@ohauss With the information he had at the time and his history and what Cailan was doing, his actions makes all kinds of sense. He didn't see Ostagar as winnable, and tried to save what he could of Fereldan himself. With his strategist mind, I can concede that if he saw no way for them to win, he was probably right. He was wrong about the rest, but on that point, I won't argue the point. He knows war better than I do.
dreman999 I do happen to agree with Loghain about Cailan though, and he was right about the Wardens in a fashion. Cailan's fascination with the Wardens' legend and his childish desire for a battle like those in the tales were his undoing, and caused him to grossly overestimate the impact that the Warden recruits could've had on the battle. There was no victory to be had at Ostagar, but Cailan was too naive to see this. Loghain was not, and made the right call.
+ClaraJ Nor will I the fact that debate exists about him and so many differing opinions alone makes him one of the most interesting people in the DA universe - say what you like about him he's definitely interesting.
I recently did a Surana run where I spared him, and he's definitely worth it. He's an interesting and complex character, not just some mustache-twirling villain ike Howe. Giving him a heroic death felt good. He's Shakespeare material.
Howe was also a pure evil villain to the end, just remembering his last words make me shiver, it was dramatic and over the top, but Loghain...He has a cold shell, but there is a tiny heart underneath those layers..
"He was my friend. If he had wanted to invade the Fade, I would have led the charge!". Years of playing this game and it's still the little details that make me appreciate the construction of the characters...
It’s like in Skyrim when Galmar tells Ulfric that he’d follow him into the depths of oblivion. Characters like that are why loyalty is a huge thing for me
Wow, I had no idea that Loghain was such a complexed character. I always saw him as a traitor to the king whenever I played Origins. My world save for Inquisition has him dead, but I may have to create another world state where he is still alive. He actually seems like a honorable man who put his country and men first and is tortured by the consequences of his command decisions. The more I learn about him, the more I like him.
I find it hard to believe Loghain is tortured by his actions when 90% of his dialogue is spent on saying that he was absolutely right in his decisions and the only real problem was not succeeding at it.
That's my one problem is that the game really doesn't explore Loghain's character much at all before you have to make the decision whether to kill or spare him.
You should check out prequel novels "The Stolen Throne" and "The Calling." The first one is about Maric's rebellion against Orlesian occupation, and the other is about events that happened during Maric's reign. These novels really fleshed out Loghain. There's a reason why, before your PC was bestowed the title at the end of DAO, Loghain was the Hero of Ferelden.
I wish there was a way to have Alistair as well as Loghain in your party. I don’t want to stab Alistair in the back by sparing his father figure’s killer (especially after I got a chance to defeat Howe) but I also don’t want to miss out on such a well written character with rich content
A bit late but originally they planned for you to be able to have both since there is cut banter between the two partially in return to oastar, I know I did not address your point sorry
@@aerialmacaroon6312 Nothing to apologize for my friend! I know what you talking about and I wonder I they cut this, I would’ve preferred this over having to choose between content and loyalty. But maybe that was the point.
@@Hawaiian_Pizza_Enjoyer if I had to guess they chose this option to make us feel like we failed someone kinda like the virmire moment in mass effect though there are better ways they could have done that
He's an amazing character. And voiced by one effing great actor, Simon Templeman. Even if Loghain wasn't so well written, his voice alone would be enough to make him awesome. XD
Having read The Stolen Throne makes you hate Loghain even more cause he spends the whole book fighting tyranny and oppression and then in origins becomes a Tyrant himself
***** She also said to Maric about Loghain "keep him close and he'll betray you every time worse than the last" - she knew Flemeth. I think Loghain is the best character in DA in some ways because he is so nuanced.
+Assassin Cactus I think it's Oblivion but there is one video game that begins with Nietsche quote "Take care when fighting monsters that you do not become a monster yourself. When you look into the Abyss the Abyss looks into you." I think that's writ large for Loghain. Sadly he's a man of his time who didn't understand what the true threat was this time until it was almost too late. Although I'm still not convinced that Cailen marrying Celene would have been a good idea at least he stopped that one.
It never made any sense. It's the product of self-delusion. He believes he's the big savior who knows everything there is to know and can do everything there is to do. In doing that, he pretty much threw away Ferelden to whoever wanted to take it, rather than protect it.
a lot of these villain characters are written poorly to where they are simply given evil things to do, but there is no fundamental or inherent reason in their psychology or philosophy as to why they would do them, therefore they always fall by the wayside. it's very easy to start sympathizing for the villain if the villain is written poorly, and more than that, is the stereotypical "hwait straight mail" (who's not a man with the brain of a child like alistair).
@@ohauss It does make sense, that however doesn't make it right. It only does not make sense to you because you already have the knowledge of WHY Grey Wardens are SPECIFICALLY needed, to kill the soul of the Archdemon and prevent it from transferring to another darkspawn. As an in-universe character Loghain did not know the necessity of Grey Wardens. As far as a regular person knows they are just great at killing darkspawn with the buff from the taint. "How are they any different from other great warrior groups?" would be the thought of people like Loghain. While there is no doubt a sense of self-delusion on his part, his doubt of the Grey Warden's necessity was borne out of in-universe explanation. Drinking darkspawn blood is only told to recruits, and it basically turns Grey Wardens to pseudo darkspawn that has the ability to kill the Archdemon. His doubt was fine, he was wrong of course, but his doubt made sense.
You understand his character more if you read Stolen Throne. I saw him much different after reading that book. He is still a villain in DA:O for the things he does like poisoning an arl, selling elves into slavery. I see him more of a guy who believes he is trying to save ferelden but ends up doing more harm. He decides to retreat and this decision might be justified as Solas had explained that he really was concerned about the loss of men. Loghain is a patriot who believes that ferelden must be protected at all costs. He saw the king as someone who was throwing the kingdom away with his decisions. Eamon also was influential as the king's uncle and was trying to get the king to marry Celine of Orlais. Then there is sending forces to Orlais which Loghain doesn't want as he doesn't trust them to leave ferelden after the blight. He didn't believe there was a blight as did many others not believe so I am not faulting him on that. His poising of Eamon was to delay him than to kill him so that Eamon couldn't influence the king while at ostagar. This gives Loghain influence and he wins the early fights against darkspawn which makes the king more confident. The king is delusional himself and wants to be part of legends where he rides into battle with wardens to be a hero. I have seen many people makes some accusations about Loghain with no proof and that don't fit his character. Claims of him wanting to be king and that he was purposely trying to lose make no sense. The king thing is not true. We see one of his men refer to him as king at the gate of orzammar but this is more likely to make him more important that he can be let into the city to negotiate with the king of Orzammar. He fails as there is no king there and isn't allowed in. Loghain never claims the throne and keeps his daughter as a figurehead. He does take power though, as regent so the title wouldn't change much. He goes against ferelden traditions where the bannorn decide on things and he pretty much turns the kingdom into a dictatorship by saying the banns must swear loyalty to him. So he ends up causing a civil war as many banns refuse and rebel. The claim of wanting to lose makes no sense as he is a patriot and didn't want his country to fall. He had problems with the king's decisions and made terrible choices but he was behind the early victories at ostagar. Some people think he dug the tunnel to let darkspawn in but this makes no sense as I would require much equipment and his men only guarded the area until they were killed as you see many dead bodies in the tower. He wouldn't waste men and Solas had said he wanted to save his men so this claim already fails. Just because a guy does bad things, doesn't mean that he is responsible for every bad thing in the game. All the things he does bad in the game, there is evidence for it. So we know the bad stuff he does and you can use them against him in the landsmeet. Loghain was someone who believed he was the one to save ferelden but he was what weakened it. He was a hero who lived long enough to become a villain and is either executed as a traitor or forced to serve the wardens for th rest of his life while still being seen as a traitor. He is also sent to Orlais during Awakening to take orders from orlesians lol. He appears in Inquisition and seems to be dedicated to wardens and making up for what he's done.
I like Alistair but keeping Loghain was a no-brainer for me on my first-ever DA:O playthrough, even without reading any character-developing books beforehand. Once I got to talk to Loghain, it was very refreshing to hear his side. He'd have been a lot different with proper guidance (and not having to deal with Cailan). I didn't even get to see Drunk Alistair in my first DA2 playthrough, which is a shame. I'd rather he be a rambling drunk than a hateful King.
Just a shame you gotta make him marry Anora. I mean, Alistair eventually adapts to being king, but leashing the guy to a woman who doesn't love him is just overkill.
becoming his fried is amazing because i love his face when warming up for wanden it is like " i really like this person. how could it be possible". And in awaking you can tell " i have lot friends who triend to kill me"
Easily the most complex, layered and fascinating character of the series so far (Though Solas has potential). The fact that Loghain is the character people are still debating over seven years later confirms just how brilliant a character he is. He is wrong, he is right, he has tragedy, he has hubris and yet the kind of heartbreaking self-hatred that a trauma survivor like him would have. Nvm his survivor's guilt. Is DAI cameo only established that further, giving him an extremely beautiful redemption arc. I don't give a damn about Alistair's whining, I always recruit Loghain and confirm Anora as queen. The fact that Alistair abandons all of Ferelden to the archdemon over not getting his blood lust sated is the real betrayal in this story to me.
Choosing between a person who's too boring that he just has the interest of doing the right thing every step of the way vs a person who fucked up so bad that he waged a civil war in the midst of a blight betrayed the king poisoned an arl and only started to regret his action after being spared his life. Ah but let's not forget: - If I'm a Cousland, the edgy guy sided with an arl that murdered my entire family - If I'm a mage, the edgy guy supported Uldred who was turning mages into abominations - If I'm an elf, the edgy guy supported slave trade on my people Ahh but Loghain "complex" so i'll kill the good one instead
Ray Tran Yeah, abandoning everyone to the Blight because you didn't get your revenge is doing the right thing every step of the way......you know what, there's missing the point and then there's you. Spare me your gibberish and don't put words in my mouth, thanks.
Ray Tran You apparently fail to grasp the hypocrisy of Alistair's selfishness in that case. Consider yourself blocked. I have no time for children acting up.
Ray Tran Yo, just coming in to point out what happened with Uldred at the Tower wasn't Loghain's fault. Loghain said: "If you help fight the Darkspawn and support me in the Civil War, I will recognize Fereldan's Circle as independent." It was Uldred who started dabbling in blood magic, summoning demons, tearing open the Veil, and allowed himself to become possessed by a Pride Demon. How could Loghain have seen any of that coming? It's not like he is an experienced mage or well informed in Circle Politics. Many of Loghain's crimes are simply due to him giving advisors and supporters like Howe and Uldred too much leeway. But they were the only allies he had, and to lose them was to lose the throne.
I couldn't help but laugh that Loghain is the senior most Warden of Orlais in Inquisition after the quest line. Literally became a better person by becoming everything he hated lol
In my game I made Alistair King and married him to Anora the two of them are good balance of political savvy and kindness. Loghain is a better Warden than Alistair because he's willing to do what's necessary to win and I like that about Loghain.
I might get a lot of backlash for saying this but I prefer him to Alistair for many reasons. If we put aside the fact that he is a far more interesting and complex character than Alistair, there is also something I have learned from experience. Weak-minded people are not good for themselves or others, no matter how golden their heart is. Their naivety and lack of ability to make difficult decisions when the blade is to the bone would not end well for them or those around them. And I'm sorry to say this but Alistair doesn't possess the strongest of characters. Kindness does not equal weakness and it's not because of it that he is generally a weak person. Loghain meanwhile is far from evil and sacrificed everything to protect an ideal. Yes, he did awful things but I believe in second chances and redemption, and he deserves both. I'd take Loghain over Alistair as an ally any day, from both strategic and personal point of view.
I thought he was inexcusable but my perspective changed after realizing that he didn't knew Grey Wardens are needed to properly kill an archdemon, even we and Alistair didn't knew until Riordan told us. The dots are connecting, if only the Wardens are not so secretive things wouldn't have been this messy.
Then you're smarter than most. A lot of people forget that Duncan never took a minute to share Ultimate Sacrifice secret with Alistair; even though the latter had been a Warden for six months at the start of the game.
In some ways, Wardens were their own worst enemy. By keeping critical pieces of information, how they knew it was a true blight and why only Warden can kill the Archdemon, as closely guarded secrets, even to their own junior members, they make it difficult for others to trust them, especially someone cynical and stubborn like Loghain, who had no reason to take their words at face value, from wardens from Orlais of all places.
@@charlesw5919 Not even a single consideration. They knew Orlais and Ferelden are like cats and dogs, yet they still made the decision to transfer Wardens from Orlais, of all places. Why not get the Wardens from Antiva or Free Marches?
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 Exactly. You would think a Thedas-wide organization like the Grey Wardens would have some understanding of diplomacy and politics, but no, for this critical mission, let's send Wardens from Orlais to Ferelden, a country that was brutally occupied by Orlais just a generation ago...
@@charlesw5919 it's human nature. The wardens give up their old lives and don't interfere in politics, it probably never occured to whoever in the wardens making the decision that such a thing would be inadvisable.
So Loghain hates Orlais. Fair. Absolutely fair. They invaded his country and he's been fighting them his whole life. But he's perfectly fine with shipping hundreds (he pulled dozens out of his ass as I'm sure every city in Ferelden was shipping them) of elves and a few humans no doubt to fucking TEVINTER? In what topsy turvy world is he living in that Orlais is the root of all evil and TEVINTER is a-okay? Also anyone else start laughing when he said "So what he was my king. Death doesn't end that" Yeah. I'm sure Maric's real proud of you. And Cailan was your king too foolish or not.
Tevinter didn't invade Fereldan, ruin his life, and murder hundreds if not thousands of innocent people. Tevinter also wasn't directly on the border with a bunch of armed Chevaliers. As Loghain puts it, the elves would have most likely died anyways. No one would bother to defend the Alienage in a Darkspawn attack. Plus, they needed the money for troops.
Abetting slavery. Live as a slave or die to the blight. The slaves would get passage out of Ferelden at the very least, there wasn't an easy choice there. We have to get past the slavery thing.
I love how Loghain doesn't mind that you hate him, in fact he wants you to insult him in one part and he just embraces the haters. Wish my other members were like that.
I really don’t think Simon Templeman gets nearly enough credit for Loghain. The voice makes the character in many ways, and he did an absolutely phenomenal job adding depth to an already complicated and many-layered man. The writing and dialogue he was given for Loghain was amazing, and Templeman sure didn’t disappoint.
I love hearing Loghain's side. He's flawed, and ruthless and brutal but not evil. He's a soldier with all the insights and flaws I imagine living in a state of constant war would give to a man. He was so blinded by his beliefs about Ferelden and resent of Orlais that he was at some point, not thinking exactly clearly. Dragon Age has some beats in common with A Song of Ice and Fire so, I see Loghain as this Stannis Baratheon type guy, seemingly uncaring but caring so much about his ideas of duty that he fucks up. It all makes him so human. The fact that he's voiced by Simon Templeton is of course, the cherry on top of the cake.
Loghain's dialogue is well written. Unfortunately, it doesn't match his actions at all. The "Loghain did nothing wrong" crowd (and evidently Bioware's writers) ignore that the reckless battle plan at Ostagar *was Loghain's idea* which Cailan followed to the letter. The game's abundantly clear that Loghain intended for Cailan to be killed so he couldn't divorce Anora. I'm all for complex, ambiguous villains but this isn't that; it's a thin veneer covering a cookie-cutter betrayal/revenge plot. P.S. To pre-empt any "Cailan charged out of position like an idiot" arguments, if the game made any attempt to depict realistic combat or tactics, I'd be willing to consider it. Unfortunately, the whole game is so packed with Hollywood fantasy clichés that that sort of argument doesn't fly. You might as well ask "why do the archers only shoot once?", "why aren't the soldiers wearing helmets?", "why are they using fire arrows?", "why didn't they capitalise on the momentum from the dogs?", "why is there no front line?". There *is* no reason; it's pure rule of drama (+ ignorance).
True. But the letters you recover afterwards from Ostagar suggest that perhaps, whether paranoia or agenda, Cailan had very dubious intentions for Fereldan which would satisfy Loghain's terrible prejudice towards Orlais. Also, Loghain did tell Cailan he shouldn't be on the front lines, and if I remember correctly, there was an alternative in waiting for reinforcements from Redcliffe.
Cailan was a child playing at war, for a very long time he kept talking of glory and all that stuff so Loghain, seeing that the King was no longer listening to reason (by his opinion), simply went and had the King and the majority of this major supporters killed so he could wage that war properly with full control.
@@chromiumgrivoise True, the former's a motivation but it's not a justification (i.e. something real-world fans should be using to defend him). I forgot about the reinforcements from Redcliffe (though it wasn't Loghain who suggested that) but they're defending a position and it's not their choice when the enemy attacks. They could abandon Ostagar but that means letting the Darkspawn overrun southern Fereldan.
Loghain did some awful things, to be sure, but he was doing them for the right reasons--he honestly thought that it was in Ferelden's best interests. King Cailan really was a complete fool, as the Warden's brief time with him makes pretty clear, and it's hard to blame Loghain for thinking he could improve on Cailan's leadership. His methods were pretty ugly and his anti-Warden philosophy put Ferelden in danger as well (since only Wardens can kill archdemons), but he's definitely a complex and compelling character. One of the many things I like about this game is that despite the clear good-vs-evil struggle against the darkspawn, there are numerous sub-conflicts that are more gray in nature. Loghain, and Bhelan in the dwarven subplot, are great examples of that.
Loghain had no way of knowing that a Grey Warden is needed to kill an Archdemon - not when the Wardens kept secrets even from their own recruits. Alistair didn't know about the Ultimate Sacrifice, and he had been a Warden for six _months_ at the start of the game. And his suspicion was justified because the Wardens tried to kill Ferelden King _twice_ despite their supposed neutrality: when Sophia Dryden rebelled against King Arland, and when Genevieve brought Maric along on their expedition to the Deep Roads.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 Exactly. One can't take his dislike of the Grey Wardens out of the greater context of the expanded story. From the Wardens' design on the Ferelden throne 200 years prior to DAO to events in "The Calling," Loghain had absolutely no reason to taken the Warrens' words at face value, from a historical perspective as well as personal experience.
Loghain isn't as one dimensional with the dialogue here. Also after reading Dragon Age: Stolen Throne you see how Loghain became the man he was and is even more tragic.
This fucking game has to boast one of the best representations of a diverse, three-dimensional cast of characters ever penned in video game history. Lore and expert handling of its themes aside, the game could be carried entirely on the agency you have in interacting with these people, and the way they banter and respond to each other. Loghain especially! Most games would write him as a two-bit villain, meant to serve as the big bad for the majority of the game, and antagonize them until they eventually kill him, and that would be that. Most people will come out of Ostagar emotionally or ethically opposed to him--and even if you agree with his logic, he'll still try to hinder your progress up until the resolution at the Landsmeet--and then you can not only let him live, but have him JOIN you. They give you the chance to ally yourself with this man who's done nothing but make your life a living hell, and in doing so, you're forced to acknowledge that he didn't just do what he did out of spite, anger, or some other flat, villainous notion. He did what he did because he's a military strategist, first and foremost, trying to keep his country unified and prepared to face the Darkspawn during the Blight, several local crises, and political upheaval with no outside help. And that upheaval may have been his fault, but it was to oust a king who romanticized the idea of battle, when he's a general that's fought himself, and having watched so many people die, doesn't want to endanger any more than necessary. Hence his betrayal at Ostagar. When you pick up him up, he admits that you do a better job, that you've somehow held on and rallied people together. And depending on how you've gotten where you have, he's either a foil and a reminder that those tough decisions you've both made aren't always easy ones; that, or he's just another sinner, just like you. His character is logically consistent, he has flaws and prejudices, he makes sense, and even if you don't agree with him, you can understand where he's coming from. And the game GAVE you that chance--a chance not many games would even consider--to turn someone made out to be a monster into something so remarkably human. The writing's so FUCKING GOOD SOWUNDJNSDNALNAINPSDNIKONDLIKMOLANDJO
The warden is surprisingly kind in their insults and threats, I'd of butchered him with my words. Go for the daughter, rub his military failures in his face, worse of all tell him he is no better than. The Orlesians for casting aside Ferreldan lives. I'd of made his blood boil.
Lol even though i genuinely like Loghain as a companion im totally inclined to agree. i really wish there were a few real below the belt retorts. Heres what i wouldve gone with: "A monster? No, i dont think youre a monster. Monsters are generally intimidating and hard to beat" "I wonder what Maric would have to say if he saw you abandon his son like that." "Yeah i think i've got a few more titles for you; how about "worst dad of the year"?" "Yeah about that whole Alienage thing....you know who else treats elves like commodities? Orlesians." "Oh, casual racism is a good look on you. Very Orlesian." and for the Cousland boys who marry Anora specifically. "I guess now im marrying your daughter i should call you dad. Just so you know, im gonna be thinking about that fight at the landsmeet everytime i do my marital duties. i thought you should know, dad."
@@RopeDrink I agree. I feel like he's the kind of person who is his own worst judge and arch enemy. I am like that, and I know for a certain that _nothing_ coming from without can hurt me more and tear me down more harshly, than I already do in my own head.
If it were me, I'd go for the three things he cared most in his life: Anora, Maric and Ferelden. "With half the kingdom soon to be blighted in the next few months, Orlais wouldn't want to have anything to do with Ferelden ever again and you will once again prove yourself without equal at toppling a _nation._ *King Maric would have been proud."* Or... "It is a shame that Queen Anora has yet to give you a grandchild, but please rest assured--once she becomes a Broodmother, she will give birth to thousands of darkspawn. *Congratulations, my lord. You will become a grandfather."*
I just finished reading "DA: The Stolen Throne" and after seeing this I suppose I can convince Alistair to remain on the throne and give Loghain a shot, he wasn't that bad in the book.
Wait wait wait.. When Alistair was born, Rowan had already been dead for quite some time if i'm not mistaken.. So how could Alistair be a constant reminder to Rowan of Marics actions? She's dead by this time isn't she?
It was the legacy of the Queen that was the issue. Don't forget, the whole myth surrounding "Maric the Great" was a creation of Loghain and Queen Rowan to shore up support for Maric's reign. Part of that myth is the "unrivaled love" between the king and the queen. Openly acknowledging the king's bastard son would not only tarnish this myth but also embarrass the Queen's memory. Considering Loghain was the one who was actually in love with Rowan all along, he would've died first before allowing that.
15:30 but wouldn’t Eamon, as a conservative man, be against his mage-son inheriting a title since that is against tradition too? Then again, he supports Alistair’s claim even though he is a Warden so I guess blood is thicker than “disqualifying social restrictions”
It may be a case of Connor is his only heir. Same as with Alistair being the only living heir of the Therin bloodline, being a bastard Eamon would pick someone else if there was another Therin living but Alistair was the only option. Same as Connor is Eamon's only child. If it wasn't revealed maybe he would've kept it secret, that's certainly what Loghain believes and he has known Eamon a long time.
Agent Z46 That’s a very good point. Personally, I think Eamon really wasn’t aware, seeing the desperate lengths Isolde went to because how certain she was that Eamon would do the right thing.
+thomas brady I do. Because there is nothing wrong with me laughing. If you are not okay with someone doing something, you don't support them or let them do it (depending on the level of what it is they're trying to do). Real life or not. Laughing is not enabling them to do or not to do something. Is just a laugh, don't read too much into it. ps: For the record, I agree with you, I laugh because like Dan Cook said "is funny because is so true". Is also sad, but I take what helps, not what hurts. Least I wanna become like Loghain ._.
aygecko How does ANY of this constitutes "gay", exactly? Is it because you think we are both happy or because you mean to offend with something that is just as natural as being heterosexual that you just happen to see as wrong? Please, enlighten me. Because I thought this was just a youtuber and I sharing views. Ones that don't align with your own, but never the less are just as free to be expressed.
thomas brady As much as writing helps, some things are still lost without paralanguage. I, myself didn't know what to take it as either, so when replying, I was actually concern about the confusion. Thank you for restoring hope in humanity by keeping a cool mind when defending your point, is rare to see nowadays.
i always liked Alistair more that I do Loghain, but it never stopped me from choosing the latter instead... Simon Templeman's sexy voice was always a reason enough.
Say what you will about the man, but i think its really touching listening to the way he reminisces about his daughter with such pride. Such a well-written character!
3:56 He really is a hypocrite and a racist. He did not realize (or did not care) that by letting the Tevinters sell Denerim's elves he has become his worst enemy, Orlais. He deprived his own countrymen of their freedom and he benefited from it. 4:35 Look at the mirror and ask yourself that, and look at the elves you sold to slavery, old man. What was your reasoning for fighting the Orlesian when you were young and still had a brain? 5:12 You deserted him IN BATTLE, you fop. That is treason. Simple soldiers who did that would be hunted down and executed, no matter how foolish the king is in their eyes. I suppose this is why I love hating him. He's a man who is fooling himself.
I always thought he was an incredibly interesting and well-written character, even more so after I read The Stolen Throne. I really recommend reading it if anyone wants to find out more about the prologue to this game, it's really really good.
This must of been what happens before the "What, no mug of ale for a weary traveler from distant Coorhagen!? I can reward you well, for I am of noble blood!" Scene.
Loghain is one of the most interesting character's I have ever seen in a video game. He is at once despicable, admirable, brilliant, brutal, knowledgeable and cold. He exemplifies the idea that the ends justify the means, and while I accept that he was a hero and he did everything he did out of a love for Ferelden, his methods were brutal and his hatred skewed his vision. That being said I only killed him so I wouldn't have to kill Alistair
I'm currently reading "The Stolen Throne," mostly to decide whether or not Loghain is worth it. But...he had a full army standing right there, and he sent them away. Why? Because a darkspawn invasion may lead to an Orlesian alliance? No. I'm sorry, but I still can't forgive him.
Ostagar is one of those events which Bioware deliberately kept obscure and vague, to allow a variety of perspectives. It is possible that Loghain intentionally sacrificed the King simply to prevent closer ties to Orlais. It is also possible that the Darkspawn horde had grown beyond something which could be overwhelmed by a simple flanking assault. Solas, who later dreamt on the battlefield, noted that he saw both perspectives reflected in the spirits that dwelt there, with no clear indication as to which was true.
he had an army of roughly 4000 in a nebulous flanking position with the king and roughly 500-1000 men holding the line (how was that achieved by the way? Ostagar is a fortress guarding a pass with only one "fereldan" entrance. are you saying loghain hid 4000 men on the wilds side of that AND managed to retreat when the darkspawn occupied the pass?) the darkspawn had an excess of 15,000 and are immune to routing like a human army. further, the signal came far later than it should have. Granted why was there a signal at all if Loghain could observe the field to call the retreat? it wasn't about him not wanting an allegiance with Orlais. if that was it he would have simply flanked and won the battle. it was because he knew the battle was a lost cause. terrible man, a fool who thought himself wise, and the epitome of everything wrong with hyper-nationalism (nationalism is not all bad mind, just extrememism in all forms) perhaps, but not a sneering villain.
@@demistr7435 at the time it was the figures listed here dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Ostagar but they have since been removed. perhaps they are in the source books? regardless, we know these things 1. The valley force was composed of Duncan, 23 Grey wardens, and the most elite of the King's army, likely no more than a quarter of the total Ferelden troops, as it was supposed to appear weak enough to lure the darkspawn into a reckless attack 2. This was, aside from the Kings army (and thus Denerim as well) almost entirely *not* a Levied force, but merely the standing Retinues of lords who were fast to respond or along the path from Denerim to Ostagar. Highever sends what was certainly it's retinue with Fergus as they were all professional soldiers by the look of their kit. one thing Game of Thrones (or more accurately "A Song of Ice and Fire" ) shows quite well is that it takes *Time* to marshal one's Levies,Time Cailen did not spare, as even his uncle who was near to Ostagar (but not Denerim, and thus the call to arms) had yet to marshal his men. the King would have the largest single levy and retinue, perhaps a few thousand men. 3. that the darkspawn not only outnumbered the Ferelden's, but had an even larger army than anticipated. we *do* know that in the battle of Denerim the Horde is roughly 3 times larger than the Coalition army, which was itself larger than the initial Ferelden contingent. 4. Celene had orders several Legions of Chevaliers to Ferelden, which would have been thousands of Troops. from the way Cailen and Loghain talk this would have been considered a decisive number of soldiers, and enough to worry Loghain that they could contend with Ferelden's own forces. 5. In "a Stolen Throne" the numbers given for the Ferelden rebellion's northern army was roughly a thousand men, now being as they were a rebelion they would not have been near the full might of ferelden, but such a force was still considered significant. thus an army of roughly 5 thousand is feasible on short notice.
That's what makes him THE best character in the game. I always kill him personally, as I feel he just goes beyond forgiveness with some of his actions. But I gotta say, he da man.
3:58 "Honestly, elf, do you think *that* among all my crimes is the one to keep me up. It's a bit *egotistical* of you, don't you think?" Says the regicidal bastard who abandoned Ostagar and almost let the entire country fall to darkspawn out of fear of Orlais.
It's not as if Loghain wanted to commit regicide. He warned Cailan not to fight on the frontlines (as seen in the War Council scene, right after the Joining) and so did Eamon (Codex entry: Cailan's Documents - Page 2 of 3), but their warnings fell on deaf ears. And Ostagar was a lost cause - a fact supported by many characters like Solas, Quartermaster Threnn and even Cailan himself. Cailan's confidant, Elric Maraigne, confessed that the king - for all his bravado - knew there could be no victory at Ostagar (Dragon Age Origins, Return to Ostagar DLC). Yes, he nearly destroyed Ferelden when he left the Grey Wardens to die and barred the rest from entering the country, but he didn't know that a Grey Warden is needed to end a Blight. Even Alistair and the Warden were not aware of this fact until Riordan told them at the very last moment.
The only good thing Loghain has for himself is that he has the voice of Kain. That's how i feel everytime i hear him, i am like Kain walks through Nosgoth again.
Ahh, my appriciation for Loghain grew even stronger after reading The Stolen Throne. Amazing look into this character, all fans of the game should read it.
My problem with Loghain is that you really don't have a reason to spare him unless you're already aware of the things he says as a companion, or if you got really attached to him through the Stolen Throne. The only reason I did is cuz I thought recruiting the main villain of the game sounded like the coolest thing you could do. Most people don't play like that. When all of his actions are based around a fear of **Orlais,** a nation barely relevant to anything even remotely in the game, his motivations feel so distant from reality that he comes across flatter than he is. He's my 2nd favorite character in the series, but he could've been set up so much better. Orlais needed more presence in the game than a few throwaway lines of dialogue.
@Catalin Chirieac regardless of character complexity, or his intentions, I somehow doubt Maric would greet Loghain with open arms. He did kill his son indirectly...after other things. He is practical, and likely saved his men at Ostagar...but he is still ruthless. Though sometimes, that is necessary.
I have to say i immediatly loved loghain much more so than cailan. he just seemed like the smarter man and the better soldier but after the betrayal no matter what i can't leave him alive even if i want to.
‘Hundreds that died at ostagar’ ...uhhh the death toll was only in the hundreds? What kinda tiny army did cailan bring to face the darkspawn? Im beginning to think it REALLY wasnt loghains fault they got their ass kicked
Duncan said that the horde had almost, if not already surpassed their numbers - and his lowest estimation of the horde put them in the thousands. From this information, we can assume that there were less than ten thousands soldiers in Ostagar. My estimate would be 5000. Ferelden strategy was quite simple: a Hammer-and-Anvil where they would lure the darkspawn into a kill zone. The defenders had to be small in numbers in order to entice the darkspawn, so I would station no more than a fifth of their entire force (say, 1000 blocking the passage with 2000 on each side of hills for a total of 5000). A death toll of hundreds would sound about right with these estimates.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 And a third of those five thousand probably forced to desert by Loghain's orders before they ever entered the battlefield. So do you think the death toll is still only in the hundreds when they were surrounded on almost all sides (yes, all sides, remember that the Darkspawn ambush the army's backside via Ishal)? I'd say at least eight out of ten soldiers are dead, in the battle if not by Loghain's actions after the battle. Remember that our warden and Alistair would've died there as well if Flemeth did not decide to directly intervene.
@@budakbaongsiah Loghain retreated with all of his forces, so the only casualties were the trapped soldiers in Ostagar ruins. So my estimations would be: *4000 fresh soldiers who retreated under Loghain's commands *800+ dead soldiers who were killed because they were surrounded and trapped in Ostagar ruins *100 or so (like the Warden, Alistair, Hawke, Carver, Aveline etc) who managed to escape the slaughter. Ah, but please don't get me wrong. Even though it was a horrible decision, I believe Loghain did the right thing when he retreated from Ostagar.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 I thought Loghain only commanded the flank? If he did, the size of that flank army can't be that big. And wasn't he the one that wanted to put up a resistance at Ostagar? So he planned it but decided to scuttle away when push came to shove?
I actually have to admit I love hearing Loghain talk (party member). I'd even dare say he's one of my favorite characters in the game because of his rationality and because he (mainly) has good reasons for what he does/thinks. *prepares to avoid impending rocks*
The lines about Alistair not getting claimed so as not to insult Rowan don't make sense. She was dead by the time he was conceived. Beyond that, as a bastard he has no claim that could threaten a trueborn prince.
As well as raped and killed his mother. Both on their own is more than enough, together can create a monster. Loghain turned out much better than he could have given the circumstances.
Oh you'll get to it 😂 Eventually I've played Origins for the first time maybe 6 years ago... And then replayed it a fair amount. Always a female Cousland and head over heels, absolutely whipped for Alistair haha. At the time I couldn't even BEGIN TO GRASP, to imagine that someone in their right mind would choose _that thing_ over my charming sweet funny templar. Now let's get back into 2021, where I'm replaying again, Cousland and all that. And I didn't care for Alistair AT ALL. Didn't even stop Anora when she ordered to execute him, only thinking that "oh no, I'll better save this boon for something more useful than saving his sorry ass" 😂 Needless to say how much I enjoyed Loghain's company and talking to him instead. He's so mature and has so much to say, regarding things I don't even have a grasp of - It almost felt like talking to a living breathing person actually, that's how greatly voiced and written he is. Such a pleasure...
@@Li_Tobler I've been playing Origins with at least one play through a year since I was at least 12, I'm 23 now. I am so OCD that I just play the same way through each time lmao, only difference being race gender or class but same story choices. I'm really going to challenge myself when Mass Effect Legendary drops and try to make completely different choices and do a renegade run. Inquisition is rough too because I have an entire personally made picture guide on how to make the character I like to play as. Just getting something as minor as the nose wrong will cause me to start over lmao. The more advanced these character creators get the more dangerous it'll be for me to indulge in them.
seriously what the hell happened to bioware and making good relatable and, in the end, sympathetic and practically redeemable antagonists,let alone writing of this caliber. him and saren being some of the best written and human characters ive ever seen and having the best writing out of the assortment of characters from their respective games and thats fucking hard to do given the other characters.....DAO is my favorite game of all time and it hurts to see whats happened to them.
Loghain may be a compelling character, but it's a bit like with what happens in Skyrim's Civil War. Yes, the Imperium may have their pros and the Stormcloaks are far from perfect, but atleast they didn't try to behead me. that was an easy choice. and so was the one in Dragon Age.
I always admired Loghain's sense of practicality, even at the battle of Ostagar. He is a brilliant military commander and he raised his daughter Anora to be a good ruler for Ferelden. I found a waste to kill him for his crimes and made sure he survived. With his fate in Awakening destined for the Wardens in Orlais, I really hope to see him return in Dragon Age 3. If King Maric is revealed to be still alive at the end of "Until We Sleep", I hope Loghain will get to see his old friend once more.
I Just realised, as I grew up a Little, that Logain and Allistair, have/had the same relationship as the Hero of Ferelden and Marrik. Both inspired them, both were their True friend they would not stop saying praises of, and both were deeply wounded and missing them, if they are gone or missing. One looks through cold experience, hiding behind a Wall of Steel made not to feel the guilt, The other - emotional, and with heart of Gold, wishing he could single handedly Save everyone and protect everything dear for him. Both are the same side of the coin, hammered by their own hero.
Have to disagree with Alistair being a true friend part. He got angry at me for choosing to kill Connor even though he was the one who suggested it. Alistair threw all responsibilities, yet he still had the gall to complain.
Should've included the bit about his dog. Everything else is nothing but a "I did what I had to" rationalization. But the mabari story makes him relatable and well-rounded in a way nothing else does.
I think it's a combination. At first I hated Loghain, then I gave a shot at his redemption and he was actually rather fascinating - and while his reasons for what he did are cold...they make a certain sense. Except leaving the entire southern boarder open to the Darkspawn, but we can rag on him about that later. XD
I just finished my second play-through of DA:O, and it only just occurred to me that there was a whole bundle of Simon-Templeman-voiced dialogue that I'd never heard. Perhaps it's just my love of the Legacy of Kain games talking, but Loghain's a rather compelling companion, isn't he?
Hearing him about Anora, his daughter and only child and her relationship with Cailan and all, I think it sounds like Anora is indeed the perfect Queen and all, regardless of any other factors that are quite negative we hear about her I am sure, she is the one set best example of a true leader and monarch, beautiful, strong-willed and brave, with a good heart, no matter what anyone else says in any other way. a Queen and leader our world would be proud to have as a Queen of England if possible, by comparison to all the others and then some.
Loghain is an interesting character actually, but of course i always see his path in youtube videos because i'm never willing to sacrifice my bro alistair for this dickhead in my runs of Dao, wish there was a mod or something that you can use to have the two in the party, their banters would be hilarious.
Not really, there should be more. Piled up on top of each other like normally, and at the beginning of the video. I don't know why or how the video uploader did this. The convo options you see are actually "all" of the possible options with him, but I think the uploader might have used a mod or something so that she was able to get all the options to come up one after another, for the purposes of this making this video. If you ever get him in your party, you'd understand.
WOW according to the comment section, this is the choice of the century. It's my first time playing the game and as everyone else I got curious about Alistair vs Loghain choice. Despite the moral part of the story where Loghain turned into Hitler of Fereldom and Alistair is a 20-something years old crying virgin, people try to make a big deal where none needed. It's quite obvious that the characters where designed in such way to trigger anal burns, leaving no the true right choice, but smashing two absolutes. Dayum kids, Alistair is a friend who was with since the beginning and became a human shield with corky and silly humor (practically a kid) - he represents innocence. Loghain, on the other hand, is a main antoganist who wanted to murder the protagonists and other good guy's associates, clearly has a mental disorder PTSD, spiced with maniacle schesophrenia. In Alistair case he is the worst when it comes to adulthood decisions, making Loghain look like a reasonable guy (and that's what makes him so appealing to so many people). With such contrast and the menacing Blight Loghain seems like a good choice, but in reality just a lesser evil. However everyone forgets that in Alistair case there is a chance for major improvements (young and listens to the hero warden), on the contrary Loghain has no chance for improvement and in a long run is the worst option. And before you reply to my comment, read it twice and think. there had to be a third choice, but then it would be no fun. Peace out, nugs.
I recently finished playing DAO and killing him is my biggest regret.I found him intriguing from the beginning,sure he is an asshole but still intriguing.I didn’t realise I can spare him until I finished the game and now watching all these videos,he has seriously become one of my favourite characters.Gotta change this in the keep before I start inquisition.
I always make sure to marry Anora and Alistair then recruit Loghain, make sure to give him my respect and send him of to his heroic death to join his king and family in the knowledge that his daughter and the son of his friend and king are left to rule the country that he gave his life for. There will be no miserable death in the deep roads for this legend on my watch.
Its so exasperating. For one side, I hate this guy and all the decisions that he made, he could say that they were mistakes and that it was justified in a way, but all the faults at logic and hypocresy makes me very happy of the times I killed him. And yet, we see his ideas, when you talk to the guy, the ideals that he has, in a different way, its an excelent companion and a friend.
the sad thing is that u get Loghain near the end of the game which leaves very little room for natural progression. To get his approval up u just shove as many gifts at him as possible (more effective with the Feastday DLC)
![Landsmeet [party comments] | Dragon Age: Origins](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/N2Lg7y3osGA/mqdefault.jpg)
"Oh no I've gone and lost Alistair, I can already feel the average sarcasm level of the party dwindling by the second!"
Loghain: "I got this"
"You cost me Alistair, you know!"
"Yeah you can thank me for that later" LMAO
Tbh I never quite liked his whiny personality, and S&S is a worse tank than DW or Two-Handed warrior.
Losing Alistair doesn't cost you much in term of gameplay, and I would trade him for Loghain any day of the week.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 Loghain is a better tank than Alistair, much better at drawing aggro and staying alive. My only issue with him is that he's so aggressive that he'll run well out of your range for healing or anything else if he spots an enemy in the distance. He's completely bonkers. XD
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 S&S worse tank then DW or 2h warrior? No. S&S, if built correctly, could tank a lot of attacks. Dual wield is best as an off hand/reserve tank, and 2H just sucks as a tank. This has been argued and proven that S&S tank warrior has the highest defense because you shouldn’t be investing into the Str stat except for what you need. The rest goes into Dex and not taking damage is always better than taking damage.
Full investment into S&S tree, enough Str for your armor of choice whether it be Juggernaut armor set (probably the best choice), Effort or Will of the Divine (if you do desire to use but why?) with Shield of the Legion (No DLC), Warden Commander set (texture bugged for consoles while porting into Awakening), Cailan armor set, or super massive dragon plate armor set for that sweet sweet fire resistance (also another solid choice because +5 defense and I believe tied with both Cailan armor set and Juggernaut set as the best choice) and the only thing that could fulfill the role of tank better (although up for debate) is a Dex/Cun dual wield duelist rogue. Once you have whatever Str you need, dump every single point you get into Dex and laugh as anything short of a grab or magic won’t be able to kill you as S&S warrior.
Alistair is almost built properly for early game tanking, his stats are thankfully easy enough to correct and Champion/Templar spec is actually good. Only drawback is that Champion/Reaver is better on the count that you can increase the damage you do over time, self heal as long as there’s dead bodies (shouldn’t have to rely on it but some encounters are just annoying enough that you might actually need it if you can use it), and any mages attacks/grabs (as long as it doesn’t kill you) become your UNO reverse card in terms of damage.
However the one specialization you need as a warrior tank of any kind is Champion. Absolutely have to have it because of the Rally buff. Also defense > health which in turn means Dex > Con and since you need Dex for both S&S and dual wield warriors, those two are just better than 2h warriors.
@@TheGeoCheese I beg to differ. Even with the best shield (Bulwark of True King) and Shield Defense modal, a S&S warrior can only have 22 extra defense over a 2H warrior with similar stats. Defense doesn't do crap against spells, and you're still vulnerable to grab/stun/knockdown. You could activate Shield Wall to gain knockdown immunity, but then you'd lose 15 Defense, bringing the difference down from 22 to 7.
2H warriors can knockdown enemy much more often than S&S (Pommel Strike 10s CD vs Shield Bash 20s CD); they are immune to stun and knockdown with Indomitable (whereas S&S must activate Shield Wall instead of Shield Defense), and they have 50% chance to stun enemy with critical hits.
DW warrior is even more broken since they can equip 3 Paralyze Rune on each daggers, activate Momentum and Double Strike, then attack normally. The sheer frequency of their auto-attack allows them to reapply Paralyze status immediately and disable even the most powerful enemies like Cauthrien and the Archdemon. Combine this with poisons + Flaming/Frost Weapon, and you'll also get a character with the strongest DPS in the game.
Loghain: "Which fate is worse, I wonder. To live as a slave or die without hope in the Alienage?"
My Warden: "As someone who fought for freedom against Orlais, you of all people should know the answer to that question."
DAYUM😶
You should become a paragon of orzimmar for that comment alone.
@loafhero im crying now. i thought that was a real option :0 it's so true tho
What would his response be I wonder
Purely in terms of dialogue, DAO is the best job Bioware has ever done. I never felt like I couldn't say what my character wanted to and many times I was surprised at how much they'd pre-empted.
who ever was in bioware that came up with this idea and whoever approve it desrves an award becuz being ble to get him as a party member where you can hear from the horses mouth as to why he did it and what made him hate the orlesians and his past and makes him one of my fav characters, and the last thing he says when hes volunteering for killling the archdemon is one of the most brilliant and genuine human moments ive ever seen in a game
I may be really late but loghain truly believed that what he was doing was best for the kingdom, he may have gone over the deep end a bit but think, all of what he was doing could have worked, he was just a terrible man
Zaza
What does he say at the end? Just curious
@@victoriasharpe1661 After sort of negotiating with the Warden over who should kill the archdemon, saying that the Warden shouldn't be the one to die as they led them to the victory against the archdemon and his own joining was a death sentence anyway so it's fitting he should die killing the archdemon, he begs the warden "please, I've done...so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right."
I could never bring myself to not kill him
"I want to lose nothing else" hits hard.
My man watched his dog die, then was forced to watch as his mother was raped and killed, then saw his father die in battle, then lost the woman he loved to his best friend, proceeded to lose said best friend, watched his wife die, had to sacrifice the life of his best friend's son because of said son's stupidity AND THEN was betrayed by his own daughter.
"To command an army, you have to be close enough to your men to know what you're risking, and still think of them as tools that might need to be thrown away."
This line is what made me fall in love with this character. It's a perspective I haven't found in any other RPG before or since and actually made me feel a form of responsibility for the armies I called to aid me in the final battle in Denerim. And also "I'd recommend a sharp knife in the kidneys next time. Less impressive, but it gets the job done." Just for how much it made me laugh.
Problem is, of course, that he had no idea what he was risking. He wasn't saving those he withdrew, he made it MORE likely for them to die.
@@ohauss This is advice given to the Warden on how to lead the armies we have assembled before the final battle, not an attempt to justify his actions at Ostagar. Those are far weaker. It's meant in a general sense that can apply to any army in any battle.
And even if he didn't live up to his own advice, that doesn't make the advice itself any less good.
@@trolldrool If u kept Logain in Inquisition and if u chose Hawke to stay in the fade he'll tell he/she that their a good leader and a good army and use them well
@@ohauss With the information he had at the time and his history and what Cailan was doing, his actions makes all kinds of sense. He didn't see Ostagar as winnable, and tried to save what he could of Fereldan himself.
With his strategist mind, I can concede that if he saw no way for them to win, he was probably right. He was wrong about the rest, but on that point, I won't argue the point. He knows war better than I do.
And people say Loghain isn't a complex character, that he's just a two dimensional villain. I'll never understand those people.
He's not. All the things he did was not for power but to protect fereldin. The issue is one of Hubris.
dreman999
I do happen to agree with Loghain about Cailan though, and he was right about the Wardens in a fashion. Cailan's fascination with the Wardens' legend and his childish desire for a battle like those in the tales were his undoing, and caused him to grossly overestimate the impact that the Warden recruits could've had on the battle. There was no victory to be had at Ostagar, but Cailan was too naive to see this. Loghain was not, and made the right call.
Cole Jordan Except for the fact he left the one group of people who can stop the blight die.
ClaraJ I think Loghain is some of the lowest murdering traitorous scum the world has ever seen. But characterwise? Fucking gold.
+ClaraJ
Nor will I the fact that debate exists about him and so many differing opinions alone makes him one of the most interesting people in the DA universe - say what you like about him he's definitely interesting.
"Pray he listens to reason."
"And if he doesn't?"
"Then simply pray."
The translation in my language was :
"Pray he listens to reason."
"what if he doesn't?"
"Pray more..."
Schmooples squeaks in the background are killing me.
I recently did a Surana run where I spared him, and he's definitely worth it. He's an interesting and complex character, not just some mustache-twirling villain ike Howe. Giving him a heroic death felt good. He's Shakespeare material.
AndersWasRight
Howe was voiced by Tim Curry. I'm not surprised he was a "mustache-twirling villain" lol
having a human noble origin as my first and favorite..id say...HOWE THAT GAY BASTERD TURD!!
Howe was also a pure evil villain to the end, just remembering his last words make me shiver, it was dramatic and over the top, but Loghain...He has a cold shell, but there is a tiny heart underneath those layers..
Russian Nixon WAIT HE WAS
Such a great villain/antihero.
When I hear him talk, I hear Kain's (Legacy of Kain) voice. The VA's role has a lot in common, by the characters's roles.
He’s an excellent character. He is a Hero though.
He's a hypocrite. Still a good man to hate, though.
Hero*
"He was my friend. If he had wanted to invade the Fade, I would have led the charge!".
Years of playing this game and it's still the little details that make me appreciate the construction of the characters...
It’s like in Skyrim when Galmar tells Ulfric that he’d follow him into the depths of oblivion. Characters like that are why loyalty is a huge thing for me
Me after playing Inquisition with Logain instead of Alistair or Stroud: ... About that
Wow, I had no idea that Loghain was such a complexed character. I always saw him as a traitor to the king whenever I played Origins. My world save for Inquisition has him dead, but I may have to create another world state where he is still alive. He actually seems like a honorable man who put his country and men first and is tortured by the consequences of his command decisions. The more I learn about him, the more I like him.
I find it hard to believe Loghain is tortured by his actions when 90% of his dialogue is spent on saying that he was absolutely right in his decisions and the only real problem was not succeeding at it.
+Luiz Antonio he said he *felt* he was right *at the time*. he fully admits to being a failure and a fuckup.
That's my one problem is that the game really doesn't explore Loghain's character much at all before you have to make the decision whether to kill or spare him.
@@HairyJuan I think the point was to trust your intuition, and that decision making matters
You should check out prequel novels "The Stolen Throne" and "The Calling." The first one is about Maric's rebellion against Orlesian occupation, and the other is about events that happened during Maric's reign. These novels really fleshed out Loghain. There's a reason why, before your PC was bestowed the title at the end of DAO, Loghain was the Hero of Ferelden.
I wish there was a way to have Alistair as well as Loghain in your party. I don’t want to stab Alistair in the back by sparing his father figure’s killer (especially after I got a chance to defeat Howe) but I also don’t want to miss out on such a well written character with rich content
A bit late but originally they planned for you to be able to have both since there is cut banter between the two partially in return to oastar, I know I did not address your point sorry
@@aerialmacaroon6312
Nothing to apologize for my friend!
I know what you talking about and I wonder I they cut this, I would’ve preferred this over having to choose between content and loyalty. But maybe that was the point.
@@Hawaiian_Pizza_Enjoyer if I had to guess they chose this option to make us feel like we failed someone kinda like the virmire moment in mass effect though there are better ways they could have done that
He's an amazing character. And voiced by one effing great actor, Simon Templeman. Even if Loghain wasn't so well written, his voice alone would be enough to make him awesome. XD
I'm surprised how many times I found myself laughing at the things Loghain said. He has a better sense of humor than I ever would have thought hahaha.
Having read The Stolen Throne makes you hate Loghain even more cause he spends the whole book fighting tyranny and oppression and then in origins becomes a Tyrant himself
***** She also said to Maric about Loghain "keep him close and he'll betray you every time worse than the last" - she knew Flemeth. I think Loghain is the best character in DA in some ways because he is so nuanced.
+Assassin Cactus
I think it's Oblivion but there is one video game that begins with Nietsche quote "Take care when fighting monsters that you do not become a monster yourself. When you look into the Abyss the Abyss looks into you."
I think that's writ large for Loghain. Sadly he's a man of his time who didn't understand what the true threat was this time until it was almost too late. Although I'm still not convinced that Cailen marrying Celene would have been a good idea at least he stopped that one.
2009 me "wow Loghain is pure evil" 2019 me "a lot of what he has to say makes a lot of sense"
It never made any sense. It's the product of self-delusion. He believes he's the big savior who knows everything there is to know and can do everything there is to do. In doing that, he pretty much threw away Ferelden to whoever wanted to take it, rather than protect it.
a lot of these villain characters are written poorly to where they are simply given evil things to do, but there is no fundamental or inherent reason in their psychology or philosophy as to why they would do them, therefore they always fall by the wayside.
it's very easy to start sympathizing for the villain if the villain is written poorly, and more than that, is the stereotypical "hwait straight mail" (who's not a man with the brain of a child like alistair).
@@ohauss It does make sense, that however doesn't make it right. It only does not make sense to you because you already have the knowledge of WHY Grey Wardens are SPECIFICALLY needed, to kill the soul of the Archdemon and prevent it from transferring to another darkspawn. As an in-universe character Loghain did not know the necessity of Grey Wardens. As far as a regular person knows they are just great at killing darkspawn with the buff from the taint. "How are they any different from other great warrior groups?" would be the thought of people like Loghain.
While there is no doubt a sense of self-delusion on his part, his doubt of the Grey Warden's necessity was borne out of in-universe explanation. Drinking darkspawn blood is only told to recruits, and it basically turns Grey Wardens to pseudo darkspawn that has the ability to kill the Archdemon.
His doubt was fine, he was wrong of course, but his doubt made sense.
You understand his character more if you read Stolen Throne. I saw him much different after reading that book.
He is still a villain in DA:O for the things he does like poisoning an arl, selling elves into slavery.
I see him more of a guy who believes he is trying to save ferelden but ends up doing more harm. He decides to retreat and this decision might be justified as Solas had explained that he really was concerned about the loss of men.
Loghain is a patriot who believes that ferelden must be protected at all costs. He saw the king as someone who was throwing the kingdom away with his decisions. Eamon also was influential as the king's uncle and was trying to get the king to marry Celine of Orlais. Then there is sending forces to Orlais which Loghain doesn't want as he doesn't trust them to leave ferelden after the blight.
He didn't believe there was a blight as did many others not believe so I am not faulting him on that. His poising of Eamon was to delay him than to kill him so that Eamon couldn't influence the king while at ostagar. This gives Loghain influence and he wins the early fights against darkspawn which makes the king more confident. The king is delusional himself and wants to be part of legends where he rides into battle with wardens to be a hero.
I have seen many people makes some accusations about Loghain with no proof and that don't fit his character. Claims of him wanting to be king and that he was purposely trying to lose make no sense. The king thing is not true. We see one of his men refer to him as king at the gate of orzammar but this is more likely to make him more important that he can be let into the city to negotiate with the king of Orzammar. He fails as there is no king there and isn't allowed in. Loghain never claims the throne and keeps his daughter as a figurehead. He does take power though, as regent so the title wouldn't change much. He goes against ferelden traditions where the bannorn decide on things and he pretty much turns the kingdom into a dictatorship by saying the banns must swear loyalty to him. So he ends up causing a civil war as many banns refuse and rebel.
The claim of wanting to lose makes no sense as he is a patriot and didn't want his country to fall. He had problems with the king's decisions and made terrible choices but he was behind the early victories at ostagar. Some people think he dug the tunnel to let darkspawn in but this makes no sense as I would require much equipment and his men only guarded the area until they were killed as you see many dead bodies in the tower. He wouldn't waste men and Solas had said he wanted to save his men so this claim already fails.
Just because a guy does bad things, doesn't mean that he is responsible for every bad thing in the game.
All the things he does bad in the game, there is evidence for it. So we know the bad stuff he does and you can use them against him in the landsmeet.
Loghain was someone who believed he was the one to save ferelden but he was what weakened it. He was a hero who lived long enough to become a villain and is either executed as a traitor or forced to serve the wardens for th rest of his life while still being seen as a traitor. He is also sent to Orlais during Awakening to take orders from orlesians lol. He appears in Inquisition and seems to be dedicated to wardens and making up for what he's done.
I like Alistair but keeping Loghain was a no-brainer for me on my first-ever DA:O playthrough, even without reading any character-developing books beforehand. Once I got to talk to Loghain, it was very refreshing to hear his side. He'd have been a lot different with proper guidance (and not having to deal with Cailan).
I didn't even get to see Drunk Alistair in my first DA2 playthrough, which is a shame. I'd rather he be a rambling drunk than a hateful King.
Well.. King Alistair and my Warden are still friends while Loghain is still alive :>
I think in time he got over it?
He does try to hide it.
Everything he says here can be summed up to "It was necessary and the best option, shame that it failed."
How do you know they still are friends?
Luiz Antonio Due to Dragen Age Awakening and DA2, mate. And Alistair isn't a character to hold a grudge like that.
Just a shame you gotta make him marry Anora. I mean, Alistair eventually adapts to being king, but leashing the guy to a woman who doesn't love him is just overkill.
becoming his fried is amazing because i love his face when warming up for wanden it is like " i really like this person. how could it be possible". And in awaking you can tell " i have lot friends who triend to kill me"
Easily the most complex, layered and fascinating character of the series so far (Though Solas has potential). The fact that Loghain is the character people are still debating over seven years later confirms just how brilliant a character he is. He is wrong, he is right, he has tragedy, he has hubris and yet the kind of heartbreaking self-hatred that a trauma survivor like him would have. Nvm his survivor's guilt. Is DAI cameo only established that further, giving him an extremely beautiful redemption arc. I don't give a damn about Alistair's whining, I always recruit Loghain and confirm Anora as queen. The fact that Alistair abandons all of Ferelden to the archdemon over not getting his blood lust sated is the real betrayal in this story to me.
Choosing between a person who's too boring that he just has the interest of doing the right thing every step of the way vs a person who fucked up so bad that he waged a civil war in the midst of a blight betrayed the king poisoned an arl and only started to regret his action after being spared his life.
Ah but let's not forget:
- If I'm a Cousland, the edgy guy sided with an arl that murdered my entire family
- If I'm a mage, the edgy guy supported Uldred who was turning mages into abominations
- If I'm an elf, the edgy guy supported slave trade on my people
Ahh but Loghain "complex" so i'll kill the good one instead
Ray Tran Yeah, abandoning everyone to the Blight because you didn't get your revenge is doing the right thing every step of the way......you know what, there's missing the point and then there's you. Spare me your gibberish and don't put words in my mouth, thanks.
Ray Tran You apparently fail to grasp the hypocrisy of Alistair's selfishness in that case. Consider yourself blocked. I have no time for children acting up.
Ray Tran
Yo, just coming in to point out what happened with Uldred at the Tower wasn't Loghain's fault.
Loghain said: "If you help fight the Darkspawn and support me in the Civil War, I will recognize Fereldan's Circle as independent."
It was Uldred who started dabbling in blood magic, summoning demons, tearing open the Veil, and allowed himself to become possessed by a Pride Demon. How could Loghain have seen any of that coming? It's not like he is an experienced mage or well informed in Circle Politics.
Many of Loghain's crimes are simply due to him giving advisors and supporters like Howe and Uldred too much leeway. But they were the only allies he had, and to lose them was to lose the throne.
I couldn't help but laugh that Loghain is the senior most Warden of Orlais in Inquisition after the quest line.
Literally became a better person by becoming everything he hated lol
In my game I made Alistair King and married him to Anora the two of them are good balance of political savvy and kindness. Loghain is a better Warden than Alistair because he's willing to do what's necessary to win and I like that about Loghain.
I might get a lot of backlash for saying this but I prefer him to Alistair for many reasons. If we put aside the fact that he is a far more interesting and complex character than Alistair, there is also something I have learned from experience. Weak-minded people are not good for themselves or others, no matter how golden their heart is. Their naivety and lack of ability to make difficult decisions when the blade is to the bone would not end well for them or those around them. And I'm sorry to say this but Alistair doesn't possess the strongest of characters. Kindness does not equal weakness and it's not because of it that he is generally a weak person. Loghain meanwhile is far from evil and sacrificed everything to protect an ideal. Yes, he did awful things but I believe in second chances and redemption, and he deserves both. I'd take Loghain over Alistair as an ally any day, from both strategic and personal point of view.
@Ethan Schultz Indeed.
I thought he was inexcusable but my perspective changed after realizing that he didn't knew Grey Wardens are needed to properly kill an archdemon, even we and Alistair didn't knew until Riordan told us. The dots are connecting, if only the Wardens are not so secretive things wouldn't have been this messy.
Then you're smarter than most. A lot of people forget that Duncan never took a minute to share Ultimate Sacrifice secret with Alistair; even though the latter had been a Warden for six months at the start of the game.
In some ways, Wardens were their own worst enemy. By keeping critical pieces of information, how they knew it was a true blight and why only Warden can kill the Archdemon, as closely guarded secrets, even to their own junior members, they make it difficult for others to trust them, especially someone cynical and stubborn like Loghain, who had no reason to take their words at face value, from wardens from Orlais of all places.
@@charlesw5919 Not even a single consideration. They knew Orlais and Ferelden are like cats and dogs, yet they still made the decision to transfer Wardens from Orlais, of all places.
Why not get the Wardens from Antiva or Free Marches?
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 Exactly. You would think a Thedas-wide organization like the Grey Wardens would have some understanding of diplomacy and politics, but no, for this critical mission, let's send Wardens from Orlais to Ferelden, a country that was brutally occupied by Orlais just a generation ago...
@@charlesw5919 it's human nature. The wardens give up their old lives and don't interfere in politics, it probably never occured to whoever in the wardens making the decision that such a thing would be inadvisable.
So Loghain hates Orlais. Fair. Absolutely fair. They invaded his country and he's been fighting them his whole life. But he's perfectly fine with shipping hundreds (he pulled dozens out of his ass as I'm sure every city in Ferelden was shipping them) of elves and a few humans no doubt to fucking TEVINTER? In what topsy turvy world is he living in that Orlais is the root of all evil and TEVINTER is a-okay? Also anyone else start laughing when he said "So what he was my king. Death doesn't end that" Yeah. I'm sure Maric's real proud of you. And Cailan was your king too foolish or not.
thomas brady Oh I'm sure he meant REAL Fereldens. Not the elves who probably lived there first anyway. HA! Like they're REAL Fereldens.
Tevinter didn't invade Fereldan, ruin his life, and murder hundreds if not thousands of innocent people. Tevinter also wasn't directly on the border with a bunch of armed Chevaliers.
As Loghain puts it, the elves would have most likely died anyways. No one would bother to defend the Alienage in a Darkspawn attack. Plus, they needed the money for troops.
+Jakira Kumahata Cailan was a fool betrayed Ferelden. Loghain was right about him.
thomas brady Cailan was the one willing to completely undo the freedom his Father and Loghain went to war for.
Abetting slavery. Live as a slave or die to the blight. The slaves would get passage out of Ferelden at the very least, there wasn't an easy choice there. We have to get past the slavery thing.
I love how Loghain doesn't mind that you hate him, in fact he wants you to insult him in one part and he just embraces the haters. Wish my other members were like that.
I really don’t think Simon Templeman gets nearly enough credit for Loghain. The voice makes the character in many ways, and he did an absolutely phenomenal job adding depth to an already complicated and many-layered man. The writing and dialogue he was given for Loghain was amazing, and Templeman sure didn’t disappoint.
I don't even know how I got here, I never even played this game. But this guy's a well-written character lol
4 years later. Did you ever end up playing dragon age origins?
I love hearing Loghain's side. He's flawed, and ruthless and brutal but not evil. He's a soldier with all the insights and flaws I imagine living in a state of constant war would give to a man. He was so blinded by his beliefs about Ferelden and resent of Orlais that he was at some point, not thinking exactly clearly. Dragon Age has some beats in common with A Song of Ice and Fire so, I see Loghain as this Stannis Baratheon type guy, seemingly uncaring but caring so much about his ideas of duty that he fucks up. It all makes him so human. The fact that he's voiced by Simon Templeton is of course, the cherry on top of the cake.
I cant put my finger on it but logain reminds me of renegade commander sheperd and his/her choices in mass effect trilogy.
Cailan getting punched as that reporter, that would be something
Loghain's dialogue is well written. Unfortunately, it doesn't match his actions at all. The "Loghain did nothing wrong" crowd (and evidently Bioware's writers) ignore that the reckless battle plan at Ostagar *was Loghain's idea* which Cailan followed to the letter. The game's abundantly clear that Loghain intended for Cailan to be killed so he couldn't divorce Anora. I'm all for complex, ambiguous villains but this isn't that; it's a thin veneer covering a cookie-cutter betrayal/revenge plot.
P.S. To pre-empt any "Cailan charged out of position like an idiot" arguments, if the game made any attempt to depict realistic combat or tactics, I'd be willing to consider it. Unfortunately, the whole game is so packed with Hollywood fantasy clichés that that sort of argument doesn't fly. You might as well ask "why do the archers only shoot once?", "why aren't the soldiers wearing helmets?", "why are they using fire arrows?", "why didn't they capitalise on the momentum from the dogs?", "why is there no front line?". There *is* no reason; it's pure rule of drama (+ ignorance).
Pertinent comment
True. But the letters you recover afterwards from Ostagar suggest that perhaps, whether paranoia or agenda, Cailan had very dubious intentions for Fereldan which would satisfy Loghain's terrible prejudice towards Orlais. Also, Loghain did tell Cailan he shouldn't be on the front lines, and if I remember correctly, there was an alternative in waiting for reinforcements from Redcliffe.
Cailan was a child playing at war, for a very long time he kept talking of glory and all that stuff so Loghain, seeing that the King was no longer listening to reason (by his opinion), simply went and had the King and the majority of this major supporters killed so he could wage that war properly with full control.
@@yochaiwyss3843 But, as I said, it was Loghain's plan and Cailan followed it to the letter.
@@chromiumgrivoise True, the former's a motivation but it's not a justification (i.e. something real-world fans should be using to defend him). I forgot about the reinforcements from Redcliffe (though it wasn't Loghain who suggested that) but they're defending a position and it's not their choice when the enemy attacks. They could abandon Ostagar but that means letting the Darkspawn overrun southern Fereldan.
Loghain did some awful things, to be sure, but he was doing them for the right reasons--he honestly thought that it was in Ferelden's best interests. King Cailan really was a complete fool, as the Warden's brief time with him makes pretty clear, and it's hard to blame Loghain for thinking he could improve on Cailan's leadership. His methods were pretty ugly and his anti-Warden philosophy put Ferelden in danger as well (since only Wardens can kill archdemons), but he's definitely a complex and compelling character. One of the many things I like about this game is that despite the clear good-vs-evil struggle against the darkspawn, there are numerous sub-conflicts that are more gray in nature. Loghain, and Bhelan in the dwarven subplot, are great examples of that.
Loghain had no way of knowing that a Grey Warden is needed to kill an Archdemon - not when the Wardens kept secrets even from their own recruits. Alistair didn't know about the Ultimate Sacrifice, and he had been a Warden for six _months_ at the start of the game.
And his suspicion was justified because the Wardens tried to kill Ferelden King _twice_ despite their supposed neutrality: when Sophia Dryden rebelled against King Arland, and when Genevieve brought Maric along on their expedition to the Deep Roads.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 Exactly. One can't take his dislike of the Grey Wardens out of the greater context of the expanded story. From the Wardens' design on the Ferelden throne 200 years prior to DAO to events in "The Calling," Loghain had absolutely no reason to taken the Warrens' words at face value, from a historical perspective as well as personal experience.
Loghain isn't as one dimensional with the dialogue here. Also after reading Dragon Age: Stolen Throne you see how Loghain became the man he was and is even more tragic.
This fucking game has to boast one of the best representations of a diverse, three-dimensional cast of characters ever penned in video game history. Lore and expert handling of its themes aside, the game could be carried entirely on the agency you have in interacting with these people, and the way they banter and respond to each other.
Loghain especially! Most games would write him as a two-bit villain, meant to serve as the big bad for the majority of the game, and antagonize them until they eventually kill him, and that would be that. Most people will come out of Ostagar emotionally or ethically opposed to him--and even if you agree with his logic, he'll still try to hinder your progress up until the resolution at the Landsmeet--and then you can not only let him live, but have him JOIN you.
They give you the chance to ally yourself with this man who's done nothing but make your life a living hell, and in doing so, you're forced to acknowledge that he didn't just do what he did out of spite, anger, or some other flat, villainous notion. He did what he did because he's a military strategist, first and foremost, trying to keep his country unified and prepared to face the Darkspawn during the Blight, several local crises, and political upheaval with no outside help. And that upheaval may have been his fault, but it was to oust a king who romanticized the idea of battle, when he's a general that's fought himself, and having watched so many people die, doesn't want to endanger any more than necessary. Hence his betrayal at Ostagar.
When you pick up him up, he admits that you do a better job, that you've somehow held on and rallied people together. And depending on how you've gotten where you have, he's either a foil and a reminder that those tough decisions you've both made aren't always easy ones; that, or he's just another sinner, just like you.
His character is logically consistent, he has flaws and prejudices, he makes sense, and even if you don't agree with him, you can understand where he's coming from. And the game GAVE you that chance--a chance not many games would even consider--to turn someone made out to be a monster into something so remarkably human.
The writing's so FUCKING GOOD SOWUNDJNSDNALNAINPSDNIKONDLIKMOLANDJO
The warden is surprisingly kind in their insults and threats, I'd of butchered him with my words. Go for the daughter, rub his military failures in his face, worse of all tell him he is no better than. The Orlesians for casting aside Ferreldan lives. I'd of made his blood boil.
Lol even though i genuinely like Loghain as a companion im totally inclined to agree. i really wish there were a few real below the belt retorts. Heres what i wouldve gone with:
"A monster? No, i dont think youre a monster. Monsters are generally intimidating and hard to beat"
"I wonder what Maric would have to say if he saw you abandon his son like that."
"Yeah i think i've got a few more titles for you; how about "worst dad of the year"?"
"Yeah about that whole Alienage thing....you know who else treats elves like commodities? Orlesians."
"Oh, casual racism is a good look on you. Very Orlesian."
and for the Cousland boys who marry Anora specifically. "I guess now im marrying your daughter i should call you dad. Just so you know, im gonna be thinking about that fight at the landsmeet everytime i do my marital duties. i thought you should know, dad."
You're assuming Loghain would give half-a-shit about such words, which he clearly wouldn't.
@@RopeDrink I agree. I feel like he's the kind of person who is his own worst judge and arch enemy. I am like that, and I know for a certain that _nothing_ coming from without can hurt me more and tear me down more harshly, than I already do in my own head.
If it were me, I'd go for the three things he cared most in his life: Anora, Maric and Ferelden.
"With half the kingdom soon to be blighted in the next few months, Orlais wouldn't want to have anything to do with Ferelden ever again and you will once again prove yourself without equal at toppling a _nation._
*King Maric would have been proud."*
Or...
"It is a shame that Queen Anora has yet to give you a grandchild, but please rest assured--once she becomes a Broodmother, she will give birth to thousands of darkspawn.
*Congratulations, my lord. You will become a grandfather."*
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 I'm not sure what's the point of your reply to me. I wasn't asking for a circus of pathetic roasts
I just finished reading "DA: The Stolen Throne" and after seeing this I suppose I can convince Alistair to remain on the throne and give Loghain a shot, he wasn't that bad in the book.
3:15 - 6:15 Loghain's every line to an Elven Warden made me hate him even more. What a racist slaver and hypocrite.
A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad the good. Stannis Baratheon
I really like the writing they did for when he becomes closer to you. And his VA is great.
Probably the best voice acting I've ever heard.
Also Kain from Legacy of Kain, epic. "Vae Victis"
Wait wait wait.. When Alistair was born, Rowan had already been dead for quite some time if i'm not mistaken.. So how could Alistair be a constant reminder to Rowan of Marics actions? She's dead by this time isn't she?
Yep Rowan had been dead for two years when he met Fiona, so I don't understand that line either
It was the legacy of the Queen that was the issue. Don't forget, the whole myth surrounding "Maric the Great" was a creation of Loghain and Queen Rowan to shore up support for Maric's reign. Part of that myth is the "unrivaled love" between the king and the queen. Openly acknowledging the king's bastard son would not only tarnish this myth but also embarrass the Queen's memory. Considering Loghain was the one who was actually in love with Rowan all along, he would've died first before allowing that.
15:30 but wouldn’t Eamon, as a conservative man, be against his mage-son inheriting a title since that is against tradition too? Then again, he supports Alistair’s claim even though he is a Warden so I guess blood is thicker than “disqualifying social restrictions”
It may be a case of Connor is his only heir. Same as with Alistair being the only living heir of the Therin bloodline, being a bastard Eamon would pick someone else if there was another Therin living but Alistair was the only option. Same as Connor is Eamon's only child. If it wasn't revealed maybe he would've kept it secret, that's certainly what Loghain believes and he has known Eamon a long time.
Agent Z46
That’s a very good point. Personally, I think Eamon really wasn’t aware, seeing the desperate lengths Isolde went to because how certain she was that Eamon would do the right thing.
People hating Loghain are the print example of inability to assess the situation if one happens to be on the wrong side of a hard choice
+thomas brady LOL
+thomas brady I do. Because there is nothing wrong with me laughing. If you are not okay with someone doing something, you don't support them or let them do it (depending on the level of what it is they're trying to do). Real life or not.
Laughing is not enabling them to do or not to do something. Is just a laugh, don't read too much into it.
ps: For the record, I agree with you, I laugh because like Dan Cook said "is funny because is so true". Is also sad, but I take what helps, not what hurts. Least I wanna become like Loghain ._.
aygecko How does ANY of this constitutes "gay", exactly? Is it because you think we are both happy or because you mean to offend with something that is just as natural as being heterosexual that you just happen to see as wrong?
Please, enlighten me. Because I thought this was just a youtuber and I sharing views. Ones that don't align with your own, but never the less are just as free to be expressed.
thomas brady As much as writing helps, some things are still lost without paralanguage.
I, myself didn't know what to take it as either, so when replying, I was actually concern about the confusion. Thank you for restoring hope in humanity by keeping a cool mind when defending your point, is rare to see nowadays.
i always liked Alistair more that I do Loghain, but it never stopped me from choosing the latter instead... Simon Templeman's sexy voice was always a reason enough.
Say what you will about the man, but i think its really touching listening to the way he reminisces about his daughter with such pride. Such a well-written character!
3:56 He really is a hypocrite and a racist. He did not realize (or did not care) that by letting the Tevinters sell Denerim's elves he has become his worst enemy, Orlais. He deprived his own countrymen of their freedom and he benefited from it.
4:35 Look at the mirror and ask yourself that, and look at the elves you sold to slavery, old man. What was your reasoning for fighting the Orlesian when you were young and still had a brain?
5:12 You deserted him IN BATTLE, you fop. That is treason. Simple soldiers who did that would be hunted down and executed, no matter how foolish the king is in their eyes.
I suppose this is why I love hating him. He's a man who is fooling himself.
I always thought he was an incredibly interesting and well-written character, even more so after I read The Stolen Throne. I really recommend reading it if anyone wants to find out more about the prologue to this game, it's really really good.
You know... I almost feel bad for killing him... well, if it wasn't for the fact that my character was a city elf...
I kept him alive out of curiosity and his sarcasm & dry sense of humor won me over immediately. Such an awesome character!
This must of been what happens before the
"What, no mug of ale for a weary traveler from distant Coorhagen!? I can reward you well, for I am of noble blood!"
Scene.
I hated him in the beginning, and loved him at the end. That is a testament to great writing.
Loghain is one of the most interesting character's I have ever seen in a video game. He is at once despicable, admirable, brilliant, brutal, knowledgeable and cold. He exemplifies the idea that the ends justify the means, and while I accept that he was a hero and he did everything he did out of a love for Ferelden, his methods were brutal and his hatred skewed his vision.
That being said I only killed him so I wouldn't have to kill Alistair
I'm currently reading "The Stolen Throne," mostly to decide whether or not Loghain is worth it. But...he had a full army standing right there, and he sent them away. Why? Because a darkspawn invasion may lead to an Orlesian alliance? No. I'm sorry, but I still can't forgive him.
I agree with you not that I read that book you mentioned but yes I just can't forgive him either for what he's done nope
Ostagar is one of those events which Bioware deliberately kept obscure and vague, to allow a variety of perspectives. It is possible that Loghain intentionally sacrificed the King simply to prevent closer ties to Orlais. It is also possible that the Darkspawn horde had grown beyond something which could be overwhelmed by a simple flanking assault. Solas, who later dreamt on the battlefield, noted that he saw both perspectives reflected in the spirits that dwelt there, with no clear indication as to which was true.
he had an army of roughly 4000 in a nebulous flanking position with the king and roughly 500-1000 men holding the line (how was that achieved by the way? Ostagar is a fortress guarding a pass with only one "fereldan" entrance. are you saying loghain hid 4000 men on the wilds side of that AND managed to retreat when the darkspawn occupied the pass?)
the darkspawn had an excess of 15,000 and are immune to routing like a human army. further, the signal came far later than it should have. Granted why was there a signal at all if Loghain could observe the field to call the retreat?
it wasn't about him not wanting an allegiance with Orlais. if that was it he would have simply flanked and won the battle. it was because he knew the battle was a lost cause. terrible man, a fool who thought himself wise, and the epitome of everything wrong with hyper-nationalism (nationalism is not all bad mind, just extrememism in all forms) perhaps, but not a sneering villain.
@@MFenix206 Where did you get any of these numbers?
@@demistr7435
at the time it was the figures listed here
dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Ostagar
but they have since been removed. perhaps they are in the source books? regardless, we know these things
1. The valley force was composed of Duncan, 23 Grey wardens, and the most elite of the King's army, likely no more than a quarter of the total Ferelden troops, as it was supposed to appear weak enough to lure the darkspawn into a reckless attack
2. This was, aside from the Kings army (and thus Denerim as well) almost entirely *not* a Levied force, but merely the standing Retinues of lords who were fast to respond or along the path from Denerim to Ostagar.
Highever sends what was certainly it's retinue with Fergus as they were all professional soldiers by the look of their kit. one thing Game of Thrones (or more accurately "A Song of Ice and Fire" ) shows quite well is that it takes *Time* to marshal one's Levies,Time Cailen did not spare, as even his uncle who was near to Ostagar (but not Denerim, and thus the call to arms)
had yet to marshal his men.
the King would have the largest single levy and retinue, perhaps a few thousand men.
3. that the darkspawn not only outnumbered the Ferelden's, but had an even larger army than anticipated. we *do* know that in the battle of Denerim the Horde is roughly 3 times larger than the Coalition army, which was itself larger than the initial Ferelden contingent.
4. Celene had orders several Legions of Chevaliers to Ferelden, which would have been thousands of Troops. from the way Cailen and Loghain talk this would have been considered a decisive number of soldiers, and enough to worry Loghain that they could contend with Ferelden's own forces.
5. In "a Stolen Throne" the numbers given for the Ferelden rebellion's northern army was roughly a thousand men, now being as they were a rebelion they would not have been near the full might of ferelden, but such a force was still considered significant. thus an army of roughly 5 thousand is feasible on short notice.
Simon just makes everyhitng awesome its even better that he uses the same voice pattern as he does when he plays Kain.
That's what makes him THE best character in the game. I always kill him personally, as I feel he just goes beyond forgiveness with some of his actions. But I gotta say, he da man.
I always liked Loghain's character.
Stone cold bastard willing to do whatever it takes to escape utter annihilation.
3:58 "Honestly, elf, do you think *that* among all my crimes is the one to keep me up. It's a bit *egotistical* of you, don't you think?"
Says the regicidal bastard who abandoned Ostagar and almost let the entire country fall to darkspawn out of fear of Orlais.
It's not as if Loghain wanted to commit regicide. He warned Cailan not to fight on the frontlines (as seen in the War Council scene, right after the Joining) and so did Eamon (Codex entry: Cailan's Documents - Page 2 of 3), but their warnings fell on deaf ears.
And Ostagar was a lost cause - a fact supported by many characters like Solas, Quartermaster Threnn and even Cailan himself. Cailan's confidant, Elric Maraigne, confessed that the king - for all his bravado - knew there could be no victory at Ostagar (Dragon Age Origins, Return to Ostagar DLC).
Yes, he nearly destroyed Ferelden when he left the Grey Wardens to die and barred the rest from entering the country, but he didn't know that a Grey Warden is needed to end a Blight. Even Alistair and the Warden were not aware of this fact until Riordan told them at the very last moment.
The only good thing Loghain has for himself is that he has the voice of Kain. That's how i feel everytime i hear him, i am like Kain walks through Nosgoth again.
Ahh, my appriciation for Loghain grew even stronger after reading The Stolen Throne. Amazing look into this character, all fans of the game should read it.
My problem with Loghain is that you really don't have a reason to spare him unless you're already aware of the things he says as a companion, or if you got really attached to him through the Stolen Throne. The only reason I did is cuz I thought recruiting the main villain of the game sounded like the coolest thing you could do. Most people don't play like that.
When all of his actions are based around a fear of **Orlais,** a nation barely relevant to anything even remotely in the game, his motivations feel so distant from reality that he comes across flatter than he is.
He's my 2nd favorite character in the series, but he could've been set up so much better. Orlais needed more presence in the game than a few throwaway lines of dialogue.
@Catalin Chirieac regardless of character complexity, or his intentions, I somehow doubt Maric would greet Loghain with open arms. He did kill his son indirectly...after other things. He is practical, and likely saved his men at Ostagar...but he is still ruthless. Though sometimes, that is necessary.
fantastic writing
Holy crap. Loghain sounds like Blackwall.
+Cairrean May AAAAAAAnd i dont like both of them :D
I have to say i immediatly loved loghain much more so than cailan. he just seemed like the smarter man and the better soldier but after the betrayal no matter what i can't leave him alive even if i want to.
‘Hundreds that died at ostagar’ ...uhhh the death toll was only in the hundreds? What kinda tiny army did cailan bring to face the darkspawn? Im beginning to think it REALLY wasnt loghains fault they got their ass kicked
Now, now. Loghain is an old man. Don't fault him for forgetting the details of a battle he deserted.
Duncan said that the horde had almost, if not already surpassed their numbers - and his lowest estimation of the horde put them in the thousands. From this information, we can assume that there were less than ten thousands soldiers in Ostagar. My estimate would be 5000.
Ferelden strategy was quite simple: a Hammer-and-Anvil where they would lure the darkspawn into a kill zone. The defenders had to be small in numbers in order to entice the darkspawn, so I would station no more than a fifth of their entire force (say, 1000 blocking the passage with 2000 on each side of hills for a total of 5000).
A death toll of hundreds would sound about right with these estimates.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938
And a third of those five thousand probably forced to desert by Loghain's orders before they ever entered the battlefield. So do you think the death toll is still only in the hundreds when they were surrounded on almost all sides (yes, all sides, remember that the Darkspawn ambush the army's backside via Ishal)? I'd say at least eight out of ten soldiers are dead, in the battle if not by Loghain's actions after the battle. Remember that our warden and Alistair would've died there as well if Flemeth did not decide to directly intervene.
@@budakbaongsiah Loghain retreated with all of his forces, so the only casualties were the trapped soldiers in Ostagar ruins.
So my estimations would be:
*4000 fresh soldiers who retreated under Loghain's commands
*800+ dead soldiers who were killed because they were surrounded and trapped in Ostagar ruins
*100 or so (like the Warden, Alistair, Hawke, Carver, Aveline etc) who managed to escape the slaughter.
Ah, but please don't get me wrong. Even though it was a horrible decision, I believe Loghain did the right thing when he retreated from Ostagar.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938
I thought Loghain only commanded the flank? If he did, the size of that flank army can't be that big.
And wasn't he the one that wanted to put up a resistance at Ostagar? So he planned it but decided to scuttle away when push came to shove?
I actually have to admit I love hearing Loghain talk (party member). I'd even dare say he's one of my favorite characters in the game because of his rationality and because he (mainly) has good reasons for what he does/thinks. *prepares to avoid impending rocks*
*Distant Rock Throw* Finally it hit!
only idiots will try to apply 21st century logic to a medieval time period...in s fantasy game..with dragons.
The lines about Alistair not getting claimed so as not to insult Rowan don't make sense. She was dead by the time he was conceived. Beyond that, as a bastard he has no claim that could threaten a trueborn prince.
Remember Orlais killed Loghains doggo
Thats hell motivation
As well as raped and killed his mother. Both on their own is more than enough, together can create a monster. Loghain turned out much better than he could have given the circumstances.
kain in the medevil universe of dragon age lol
Damn. If it wasn't for having to give up Alistair I would spare him.
Oh you'll get to it 😂 Eventually
I've played Origins for the first time maybe 6 years ago... And then replayed it a fair amount. Always a female Cousland and head over heels, absolutely whipped for Alistair haha. At the time I couldn't even BEGIN TO GRASP, to imagine that someone in their right mind would choose _that thing_ over my charming sweet funny templar.
Now let's get back into 2021, where I'm replaying again, Cousland and all that. And I didn't care for Alistair AT ALL. Didn't even stop Anora when she ordered to execute him, only thinking that "oh no, I'll better save this boon for something more useful than saving his sorry ass" 😂
Needless to say how much I enjoyed Loghain's company and talking to him instead. He's so mature and has so much to say, regarding things I don't even have a grasp of - It almost felt like talking to a living breathing person actually, that's how greatly voiced and written he is. Such a pleasure...
@@Li_Tobler I've been playing Origins with at least one play through a year since I was at least 12, I'm 23 now. I am so OCD that I just play the same way through each time lmao, only difference being race gender or class but same story choices. I'm really going to challenge myself when Mass Effect Legendary drops and try to make completely different choices and do a renegade run. Inquisition is rough too because I have an entire personally made picture guide on how to make the character I like to play as. Just getting something as minor as the nose wrong will cause me to start over lmao. The more advanced these character creators get the more dangerous it'll be for me to indulge in them.
seriously what the hell happened to bioware and making good relatable and, in the end, sympathetic and practically redeemable antagonists,let alone writing of this caliber. him and saren being some of the best written and human characters ive ever seen and having the best writing out of the assortment of characters from their respective games and thats fucking hard to do given the other characters.....DAO is my favorite game of all time and it hurts to see whats happened to them.
the problem is, i want loghain, but i can't bear to lose alistair
“So what is it you think you can have me do, then, that will be so much worse than death?”
Well for starters, he gets stationed to Orlais…
Loghain may be a compelling character, but it's a bit like with what happens in Skyrim's Civil War. Yes, the Imperium may have their pros and the Stormcloaks are far from perfect, but atleast they didn't try to behead me. that was an easy choice. and so was the one in Dragon Age.
Well, the Imperium isn't racist against the Dark Elves.
@@kieranmahon4382 Not only do the dark elves deserve it, but they themselves are probably the most racist race out there.
I always admired Loghain's sense of practicality, even at the battle of Ostagar. He is a brilliant military commander and he raised his daughter Anora to be a good ruler for Ferelden. I found a waste to kill him for his crimes and made sure he survived. With his fate in Awakening destined for the Wardens in Orlais, I really hope to see him return in Dragon Age 3. If King Maric is revealed to be still alive at the end of "Until We Sleep", I hope Loghain will get to see his old friend once more.
You still have a way with words, Kain. Vae Victus!
🦇💀🦇
I Just realised, as I grew up a Little, that Logain and Allistair, have/had the same relationship as the Hero of Ferelden and Marrik.
Both inspired them, both were their True friend they would not stop saying praises of, and both were deeply wounded and missing them, if they are gone or missing.
One looks through cold experience, hiding behind a Wall of Steel made not to feel the guilt, The other - emotional, and with heart of Gold, wishing he could single handedly Save everyone and protect everything dear for him. Both are the same side of the coin, hammered by their own hero.
Have to disagree with Alistair being a true friend part. He got angry at me for choosing to kill Connor even though he was the one who suggested it. Alistair threw all responsibilities, yet he still had the gall to complain.
Should've included the bit about his dog. Everything else is nothing but a "I did what I had to" rationalization. But the mabari story makes him relatable and well-rounded in a way nothing else does.
I think it's a combination. At first I hated Loghain, then I gave a shot at his redemption and he was actually rather fascinating - and while his reasons for what he did are cold...they make a certain sense. Except leaving the entire southern boarder open to the Darkspawn, but we can rag on him about that later. XD
So he refused to sacrifice
I just finished my second play-through of DA:O, and it only just occurred to me that there was a whole bundle of Simon-Templeman-voiced dialogue that I'd never heard.
Perhaps it's just my love of the Legacy of Kain games talking, but Loghain's a rather compelling companion, isn't he?
One endind I've never experienced and never will. Trading loghain for Alistair is a terrible deal.
Seemed like a good deal to me. We gain an extra body to throw at the Archdemon and the Order gain a veteran commander/warrior to add to their rank.
I like Loghain, way more than Cailan but I'm always going to choose Alistair over him.
Hearing him about Anora, his daughter and only child and her relationship with Cailan and all, I think it sounds like Anora is indeed the perfect Queen and all, regardless of any other factors that are quite negative we hear about her I am sure, she is the one set best example of a true leader and monarch, beautiful, strong-willed and brave, with a good heart, no matter what anyone else says in any other way. a Queen and leader our world would be proud to have as a Queen of England if possible, by comparison to all the others and then some.
Loghain is an interesting character actually, but of course i always see his path in youtube videos because i'm never willing to sacrifice my bro alistair for this dickhead in my runs of Dao, wish there was a mod or something that you can use to have the two in the party, their banters would be hilarious.
Could he like not be so fucking late in the game?
Once you get him, there is nothing else to do.
loghain is the most red pilled character in Dragon age.. damn too bad the story makes it so easy to hate him and kill him.
The asshole still dares to ask to be the one who will make the sacrifice. And let's be honest here, it IS one last grab for glory.
Loghain never gave a shit about glory.
No. It really isn't. He isn't Cailan after all and there's a reason why Loghain doing the US is referred to as the Redeemer Ending.
I'm secretly just waiting for Loghain to begin talking about Raziel and Nosgoth.
Wheres the camp music?
Loghain did much more than most dwarves that preferred to play game of thrones than fight the blight in the open
The conversation options here are... kind of limited arn't they? =p
Not really, there should be more. Piled up on top of each other like normally, and at the beginning of the video. I don't know why or how the video uploader did this. The convo options you see are actually "all" of the possible options with him, but I think the uploader might have used a mod or something so that she was able to get all the options to come up one after another, for the purposes of this making this video. If you ever get him in your party, you'd understand.
Malcolm Wright Pretty much uploader just edited out other choices. There is no reason to show them if he is not going to pick them.
WOW according to the comment section, this is the choice of the century. It's my first time playing the game and as everyone else I got curious about Alistair vs Loghain choice. Despite the moral part of the story where Loghain turned into Hitler of Fereldom and Alistair is a 20-something years old crying virgin, people try to make a big deal where none needed. It's quite obvious that the characters where designed in such way to trigger anal burns, leaving no the true right choice, but smashing two absolutes. Dayum kids, Alistair is a friend who was with since the beginning and became a human shield with corky and silly humor (practically a kid) - he represents innocence. Loghain, on the other hand, is a main antoganist who wanted to murder the protagonists and other good guy's associates, clearly has a mental disorder PTSD, spiced with maniacle schesophrenia. In Alistair case he is the worst when it comes to adulthood decisions, making Loghain look like a reasonable guy (and that's what makes him so appealing to so many people). With such contrast and the menacing Blight Loghain seems like a good choice, but in reality just a lesser evil. However everyone forgets that in Alistair case there is a chance for major improvements (young and listens to the hero warden), on the contrary Loghain has no chance for improvement and in a long run is the worst option. And before you reply to my comment, read it twice and think. there had to be a third choice, but then it would be no fun. Peace out, nugs.
I recently finished playing DAO and killing him is my biggest regret.I found him intriguing from the beginning,sure he is an asshole but still intriguing.I didn’t realise I can spare him until I finished the game and now watching all these videos,he has seriously become one of my favourite characters.Gotta change this in the keep before I start inquisition.
Just came here to listen to Kain
Does loghain have a companion quest?
Yes, this guy has flaws.
Yes, I feel bad for him and always recruit him 😂
I always make sure to marry Anora and Alistair then recruit Loghain, make sure to give him my respect and send him of to his heroic death to join his king and family in the knowledge that his daughter and the son of his friend and king are left to rule the country that he gave his life for. There will be no miserable death in the deep roads for this legend on my watch.
Its so exasperating. For one side, I hate this guy and all the decisions that he made, he could say that they were mistakes and that it was justified in a way, but all the faults at logic and hypocresy makes me very happy of the times I killed him. And yet, we see his ideas, when you talk to the guy, the ideals that he has, in a different way, its an excelent companion and a friend.
the sad thing is that u get Loghain near the end of the game which leaves very little room for natural progression. To get his approval up u just shove as many gifts at him as possible (more effective with the Feastday DLC)