***** True but they return to a familiar setting in the Brecillian Forest. You could argue Redcliffe as familiar for the Human Noble but it doesn't have ties to the Cousland character.
Colin Drimmie True, but I wish you could of got the last words, after he said "Maker Spit on you..." I wish I could of said, "No, you deserve nothing!" and then decapitated him.
My dwarven noble went against the grain and helped Bhelen: part of it was because she knew he'd make a better king and not weigh Orzammar down in tradition in a world that changes every day, but there was also a more insidious, petty reason. When you get to Orzammar, it's made clear that Bhelen is losing support: it's still a tie, but his followers are dwindling due to the rumors about how unsavory his means of achieving the throne were. In other words, for all of Bhelen's ruthlessness and lofty ambition, he would ultimately have failed if not for you. Making Bhelen king as a Dwarven Noble is ultimately a cruel kindness: now he knows that he would never have achieved anything he has on his own, and that the only reason he's king is that Big Sister/Brother had to come back and clean up their little brother's mess. Even exiled and honorless, they were still more capable and had more sway than he did, and THAT is a humiliation all on its own. And now, Bhelen has to live each day on the throne knowing he did nothing to deserve it, nothing to earn it, that he's ultimately a failure compared to his older sibling. It cuts even MORE when you remember that the Dwarven Noble becomes a PARAGON: they'll forever be a pillar of dwarven society and a figure to look up to, while kings come and go. No matter what Bhelen does, he'll forever stand in their shadow, both in his reign as king and also in the impact they have on society. And THAT...is the greatest revenge you could ever take.
I mainly did it because I wanted my name cleared and back into House Aeduan. The only thing wrong was I wished I could crown myself. But not to be and have Leliana be my queen.
Plus my business has nothing to do with an entire nation, it would be childish to let it out on thousands of lives because I got salty. Nor can I blame Bhelen, power corrupts, even the greatest people of us can be corrupted. And yes what you said is true, I like the idea of cruel kindness. A disarming candor that destroys every snake without any use of violence.
The choice of king for Orzammar was always one of the harder choices for me. Because even though I don't like Bhelen, he does support policies that I would actually like for his people. Giving the castleless better opportunities, reducing his nation's isolationism, and several other things I would want for the dwarven people. Harrowmont, while more likeable, would just keep things as they are, which is pretty much a downward spiral at this point.
i know the other missions were rather straight forward choosing mages over templars dalish over werewolves and such but this is the most difficult to choose its either a good guy with bad ideas or a ahole who does good
ventus12312 also the missions and ways they carry out, I think that provides some pieses on some other things in the city, with the ahole with good rules with some shady tactics for various reasons with a good, honest guy that keeps some of the least favorable ideas. makes you think who will REALLY make orsamar better huh?
Harrowmont needs Brankas Golems to enforce his rule in Orzammar. If you let Branka keep the anvil of the void, the end dialogue will reflect that Harrowmont won against the remnants of Bhelen's supporters with the help of her Golems. If you choose to destroy the anvil and not make Golems, then yeah, Harrowmont is as efficient a ruler as a wet paper bag.
@@sambishop9856 That's legitimately the most retarded failed observation one could make about Dragon Age and the real workd. Completely the wrong way around, as if it needed to even be said.
Ah, the dwarf noble. Possibly one of the greatest - if not the greatest - origin story in this game. Unlike most of the others, this one has people debating a major impact point on the story, adding a personal layer to it and asking "what are you going to do - go with your gut and get revenge with Harrowmont or divide up and play nice with your brother?"
AngryIrishBenjamin Female city Elf rogue is the best imo. Ripping thru the alienage at the end as an elf is huge and to see the rascism thru out the whole story is interesting as well. Also you can make a pretty hot Elf.
I agree with you both, I’ve played all Origins and though I do like the elf perspective but the Dwarf Noble throws you right into a major part of Dragon Age Origin’s story, the fate of the Dwarven Throne
Jake M. I didn’t say it wasn’t important, the Elf is important for the entire series but for Origins specifically the Noble Dwarf background does have a major stake in the story, u alter the relationship Dwarves have with the surface and choose the new king of your people and true as well for the Dwarf they can choose the king of Ferelden
@@Bubbles99718 I kinda like that but with a male city elf, in that way nobody dies, except for those dicks who crashed my wedding, can you believe the gall to there rudeness...............................one problem with city elf origin, and don't judge me, but I'd rather marry my cousin then my fiance..........weird.
Hey Bhelen, you should spend some time with my War Hound here, alone in a room together. What's his name? Just call him Dog if you want it doesn't matter Bhelenkiller: *Excited Bark*
I wonder if there is any new dialogue for supporting Bhelen, but giving the crown to Harrowmont at the very last second. A fitting repayment for being betrayed by a brother.
Yes you can, if you finish the quest line amd speak with the other champion that craft the crown they will be like "who tye champion told you to give the crown" and you can do Sike! To the one you were Helping at the last moment.
@@Blazieth He does once you beat the game, after the Archdemon Gorim will tell you that both of you are allowed to go back, you become the Heir to House Aeducan and a Paragon!
@@astralaris8712 IIRC, that's more the Senate as a whole rather than Harrowmont himself - Bhelen gives you the royal pardon directly, in person, immediately. The Paragon thing happens regardless, I believe.
@@Blazieth I just ended my playthrough a few hours ago xD Its said in the credits buuuuut i forgot it.... Still, once i play as any other than a Noble dwarf i may get more info on what Bhelen wants, cause as Noble he deserves to suffer....
Bhelen is undoubtedly the better king, especially with us being able to see the effects of his reign in Inquisition, but hot damn if I wouldn't dunk him in the lava for a Klondike bar and an alibi
Totally. It's just a lame way for the game to appear less "black and white". "Look : the bastard who ruined your life happens to be a great king !" Yeah, sure... That is GoT season 8 level of "subverting expectations".
@Damocles16 Waaah, I cant’t just choose a selfish option I always choose in rpgs and feel good about it, here my choice can have consequences, I don’t want to think, bad writing Bioware, ma head hurtin… Typical - people like you are the reason why stories in video games are usually black&white braindead nonsence, so simpletons line you wouldn’t throw a temper tantrum they face something more complex. Go play Call of Duty and stay out of RPG genre
That would’ve been a cool little thing for that origin, clearing your name and claim your rightful place. Even having later events be close to Harrowmont, or Bhelen, or both of them depending on some choices presented after the Archdemon is killed.
@@katie5998 Dwarf Commoners doesn't become Paragon at the end. They start their own warrior caste. However, you might become a Paragon depending on the debates in the assembly but as a dwarf noble background after choosing one of the sides, your name has been clear and it makes you noble once again because of that in the end, you are declared Paragon after your deeds against the blight.
+TheSilverPhoenix100 Who would be king, then? If Harrowmont and Bhelen _both_ lost the throne, as you suggest, then the infighting would worsen as their two sets of supporters fractured into many smaller groups. And when it's just Harrowmont vs. Bhelen, they're already on the verge of civil war over the matter. Which, no matter how you feel towards Orzammar, means no dwarven warriors for the battle on the surface, which means more surfacers of all sorts will die.
Mardy calling the son Endrin is kinda awkward considering that Bhelen also has a son called Endrin. congrats old man both of the only grandchildren you'll ever have are named after you. (unless you do the nasty with Morrigan of course then there'll be three grandchildren.
I'm kind of surprised Bhelen responds the way he does when you mention you have a son. Considering he has his own Casteless lover and son, it seems extremely hypocritical. Especially because he does give the casteless more opportunities and whatnot. Either his actions towards the casteless are purely to curry their favor and support OR he's deliberately being a shit because you are... well, the brother he got exiled. Usually I don't mind siding with Bhelen in other playthroughs but for Dwarven noble I can see it being super hard not to side with Harrowmont. Also I'm kind of curious what Bhelen says if you pick 'you're wrong, I never plotted against you or Trian', since that's what my dwarf noble warden would say.
If I remember right, something along the lines of "well then you're weak, we both would've plotted behind your back anyways, you would've made for a poor ruler," or something like that
I agree with you because with the noble dwarf you will have a better understanding of who would lead the Dwarfs but with any other race even a commoner choice would be with bhelen
@@HexagonalspyTheSpy or to spite on your brother who you would killed your father, tried to kill you and who you wanted to lead instead of you so this was just a revenge
MAAD TEE or Justice done if you have played the noble dwarf and have the better understanding. Besides “revenge” is hardly described from what has been done justice is more appropriate.
to think that the game recognizes bhelen as a better king than harrowmont. hes such a damn dickwad, he killed one brother and framed the other, possibly poisoned his father, and yet hes supposedly the one who supports trade with the surface and accepting the casteless into the army whereas choosing harrowmont invokes civil war among the dwarves for decades? dammit, bioware, you made this quest so much harder than it had to be -_-
You obviously no absolutely nothing of historical leaders. The worst scum were often some of the most stabilising and prosperous rulers. People who were rumoured to have murdered their own children were known, factually I'll add, as rather good rulers for their time. What they do to get power is absolutely and completely irrelevant, what they do as rulers is all that matters and Bhelen is a good ruler. He's still a twat though.
Theres is a BIG difference between good person and good ruler. Its rare to see both. Putin (great leader, bad person), Obama (good-ish person, but crappiest leader), Churchill (great leader), Hitler (great leader), Merkel (bad person and even worse leader xD ). Bioware made it realistic. You want your ego (aka naive leftist "save the world with kindness" attitude) be happy...Harrowmont. You want to actually see a great, prosperous nation...Bhelen.
Think of Augustus Ceaser, he was an asshole but he brought the Roman Empire into a Golden Age. Thats what Bhelen is. Harrowmount is Jimmy Carter, a good loyal man, but a terrible leader.
Muahahaha when I played my female dwarf noble I did the most evil thing available to Behlen... I told him I'd help him, made him trust me...and when it came to choose King guess whaaaaaaaat..... Harramond Muaha muaha muahahahahaha.....oooo "you mad bru??? Take that oooo in yo face yeah!" XD......o.O ......was that too much?
It DOES serve as a very nice "take that" to Bhelen as revenge for your origin. Little brother turned out to be a master of "the game", but big sister watched, and learned VERY well.
The dwarf noble is one of my favorite origin stories. I loved the drama involved and I loved coming back and everyone reacting to your character's heritage. Believe it or not, I had my dwarf noblewoman side with Bhelen mostly because I liked his epilogue better than Harrowmont's. In my head cannon I had her punch Bhelen in the face when she meets him again. While she didn't get to be queen of Orzammar, my character does have the king of Ferelden as a boyfriend. ^_^
Meanwhile, my elf mage is the boyfriend/husband of the Divine (Leliana) and best friend of King Alistair. That must let the noble of both Ferelden and Orlais crazy.
Playing according to what the endgame slideshow will tell you kind of ruins the immersion... You're just ticking boxes ! During the quest, you have no reason to think that Belhen will be a good king. His claims are just words by a an opportunistic kinslayer trying to rally as much suppport as he can.
@@Damocles16Tbf, the crier says he'll help the Casteless. Bhelen making that claim won't help his claim to the throne, since Casteless can't vote and the Assembly is 90% traditional types who would hate that. So it's believable that Bhelen would actually be telling the truth about helping the Casteless, especially since a Noble can stumble across Rica in his bedroom.
I always wondered why the messenger says "King Loghain" instead of "Teyrn Loghain." I took this as a sign that Loghain's plan was more self-centered than he claimed.
I think it's just blind loyalty. Remember that many of Loghain's supporters practically worship him. So that guy probably WANTS Loghain to be king. He may have also said it to avoid appearing weak, because if he had referred to Loghain as either a Teyrn or a Regent, it would be the equivalent of shouting: "Hey! Our King is dead and he has no heir!" Remember, they are *demanding* the allegiance of the dwarves, not asking nicely, and when you demand something you need to look strong.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. You're more likely to see results by playing up ranks or clarifying positions. Teyrn doesn't have the same authority as King, and would confuse and delay the courts. Bureaucracy looks for ways to complicated things. And for all intents and purposes, he is the King at that time.
@@canadian__ninja In Medieval times, falsely referring to someone as king could probably be considered an act of treason. And as isolated as the dwarves are, they probably are aware that Cailan was the previous king, thus this statement should be met with some confusion.
@@Blokewood3 Kings die, it happens. As it happens, the issue presented in this scene as you know is that the Dwarven king is himself dead so at the moment I'm sure they aren't questioning it too closely. As this is a Dwarf noble start the dwarves (nobility at first but these things have a way of spreading) would be well aware of the at the time upcoming battle in the Kokari Wilds.
When I played with other races, Bhelen was always my choice, because of his speech, he would be a better king. But then I played as a female dwarf princess and he bastard betrayed me!! I hate him I hate him I hate him
"I'm going to call him young Endrin." That's not gonna be confusing at all. Rica: ENDERIN! Enderin 1: Yes, auntie? Rica: Not you. Enderin 2: Yes, mama? Bhelen: ENDERIN! Enderin 2: Yes, papa? Bhelen: Not you. Enderin 1: Yes, uncle?
It's easy enough for me to support Bhelen only if I am not a noble dwarf Origin. As a Dwarven Noble I can't do it without literal stomach pain popping up.
Or you play dwarf commoner. The dwarf commoners sister is Bhelen's concubine meanwhile I had no link to Harrowmont or knowledge of Bhelen's schemes. Hence I sided with Bhelen
@@Damocles16Eh, people can play as they want. I myself build character arcs for my characters based on what I know to create a narrative for them that works with the game's narrative.
It is possible to maybe eventually become king/queen. Harrowmont names you as his heir if you pick him but then you get into questions of how long Harrowmont will live and weather your character would still be available to take the throne at that point.
suchiuomizu I know this was years ago, but Harrowmont dies in 9:41 Dragon. Origins takes place in 9:31 Dragon, meaning you would take over roughly a decade after the events of Dragon Age Origins.
tecs513 But in Inquisition, which is during 9:41 Dragon, the Warden is missing, trying to find a way to stop the Calling from happening. It's unlikely that a Dwarven Noble Warden will become King and the Assembly will most likely vote on a new King
I know that Bhelen would make a better king... but I just couldn't. I couldn't chose him. I couldn't reward the horrible person that he is by making him king. I could not give him the satisfaction of his intrigues working out. I just couldn't. Even less after playing through the Dwarf Noble Origin. I'm not good at logical decisions.
@@Mieke192 Is that confirmed somewhere in the sequels or non-game material, because I don't remember any confirmation of Harrowmont's death? And having him die too soon could get complicated in that if you play the Dwarf Noble, he name's you as his heir.
This is just the Anora problem all over again. Do you support a despot that is a more skilled ruler, or an honest ruler who is less skilled? Harrowmont is as Alistar. Bhelen is as Anora. That so many people prefer the despot is concerning.
Metagaming, but what Anora achieved on the epilogue is achieveable via hardened Alistair so hardened Alistair is the best option. Harrowmont is a doormat of the nobles like two centuries of Roman Consuls before Julius Caesar shakes things up. Bhelen is Julius/Augustus Caesar that saw the ineffectual deshyrs and the caste system that held back the kingdom.
The issue with Harrowmont isn't that he's less skilled like Alistair. The issue is he's a doormat who affects no real change. Alistair, imo, is the right choice for Ferelden, but Bhelen is thr overall right choice for Orzammar.
The first time I played this game a choose Harrowmont without a doubt. Foolish boy I was. Bhelen maybe an asshole, but is the right kind of asshole to give him a throne. Politics in the real world are no different concerning what Bhelen did against his brothers, in any case, it shows that he has the inteligence and balls to do something like that. At the epilogue, it gives Orzammar new and good policies as well as showing himself innovator and tyrant at the same kind. At least better that a king who REJECTS soldiers from the outside to help his people against the Darkspawn (After all, they are doin it great!), to weak to keep the nobles at bay and dies short after, undoing all the work that you have done. Screw that!
That's not foolish. You know your history : a roman general murders his competitors, then promises great reforms and wonders for the lower classes ! Does that ring a bell ? Usually he gets murdered a few years later and there is a civil war afterwards. The game gives you no reason to think Belhen would be the better king. His father considers him a Tyrant, Trien sees him as immature. The game is just trying to look less "black and white" by telling you in the end "Look, the bastard who ruined your life is actually the good ending ! You let vengeance blind you, foolish boy !" Don't fall for it man.
@@Damocles16The thing is, Bhelen doesn't benefit from being pro-casteless. They can't vote and 90% of the Assembly are traditional dudes who would go against that. He doesn't benefit from it like irl politicians promising it do, meaning that he's genuine about it. So yeah, don't think black and white, especially when the criteria is if they're a bit of a dick or not. Endrin is also a traditionalist like Harrowmont, so his word on if Bhelen would be a good king is kinda too compromised to trust.
I personally choose Bhelen even as a Dwarf, because Bhelen will lead the Dwarfs in a new era and not stay stuck in the old ways, i kind of think it like Wrex being the right leader for the Krogan race in Mass effect 3. Bhelen is strong and ruthless and has a big vision about his people, and even if some of them don't like it that wont stop him.
Despite what bioware may have decided harrowmont would have made a much better king bhelen supporters made it difficult for him and managed to get rid of him but unlike bhelen harrowmont had all qualities a king needs a good brain a good tactian merciful will listen to you. And with a small bit convincing would probably help the casteless. Just think of all the loop holes in bhelens plan to get rid of the dwarf noble. It was incredibly unlikely and relied on many different factors that had alot more chance of going wrong than right bhelens cunning must be incredibly low to come up with such a half-arsed plan. Only dumb luck made it work. As for ruthless i believe that is a bad trait in a king or leader as in my mind it basically means murder everyone with a different opinion to you. Sure harrowmont would not be as good as endrin but based on lore common-sense and gamplay harrowmont would be a paragon king compared to bhelen. Casteless under bhelens rule are probably just cannon-fodder.
@@Neloth290Harrowmont would not help with the casteless. You could *maybe* convince him to try, but the moment he gets pushback from the Assembly, he'd back down. Because he's ultimately a spineless conservative more willing to keep things the same than change them. Also, literally nothing implies Bhelen treats the casteless like cannon fodder, that's making stuff up.
+Jani SIr They're probably symbols of power. Aside from that, they probably forge them as well, so it can't hurt to keep one with you to symbolize your status.
Bhelen is a tough choice, but only because his schemes are a bit too flamboyant. He's too obvious in his plots, even if they are sometimes effective. Ultimately, I do the first quests for Harrowmont then give the crown to Bhelen, if only to keep my hands mostly clean.
I did that to show Bhelen his place. My dwarven noble agreed with Bhelen's ideas of change but of course he couldn't easily forgive what he did to him and the rest of his family. So I taught him a lesson.. and when all hope was lost for him.. When he lost everything.. I made him king.
I wish the warden could take the throne of Orzammar if the are a dwarf noble, or even commoner for the drama, like how the human noble can rule Ferleden with Alistair or Anora.
When the Noble is exiled, they have everything stripped; titles, names, and even history from the Shaperate record. "You will not exist, not even as a memory". That status is still the same when the Noble returns to call for the Blight. However, in the case of saving the world and continuing the Dwarves existence by extension, they make an exception to the Dwarf Noble.
Yes, Belhen happens to be a good choice for Orzammar... But only because the game tells you so in the end to trick you and trying to be less manichean ! During the quest, you have EVERY REASON to think he is just being an opportunistic demagogue trying to rally the lower castes. That's what roman generals did to take power. Your father beleived him to be a future tyrant, Trien beleived him to be immature and unqualified to even be a prince. Moreover : your character is from a medieval traditionalist society. Leaving a double kinslayer on the throne and letting your honor tainted is just inimaginable. Unless there is a TON of dialogues and explaining bewteen you and your brother. But the game can't afford that. So that's a big NO.
Everytime i come or come back to Orzammar i always want to ask " *King* Loghain? I thought he was only the Regent." And even i really don't like Bhelen, i choose him over Harrowont to be King. Yes, he is a tyrant, but he brings Orzammar forward.
Yea that's true. I guess it wouldn't make sense if you just became the king of orzammar instead of a grey warden, then suddenly the game is about something else entirely,
Because when the Noble was exiled, their name was stricken from every record and wasn't part of any house, making it impossible for them to become the king. The only way to rejoin a house is by having a noble let you into theirs, which, in-game, only happens when you've made someone else king, and I don't think they'll give that up that quickly (especially Behlen).
This Lord Auducken would have made a good Father. It's too bad we never get to see what happened to the boy in the following games. I fear Bhalen would have reneged on his word and probably had the boy killed.
+Ralek Kelar Well, Bhelen would make the better king. IIRC Bhelen wants the casteless to fight the darkspawn, and actually do something. HE also wants to contact the surface more than harrowmont. Harrowmont is so stuck in traditions that he is helping the extinction of the dwarves in Orzammar
+Foxes4Psychos In my honest opinion of knowing fantasy lore and dwarves, aren't dwarves always stuck in traditions? This is proven in not only this game, movies (LOTR if you want an example), but also in books. Although Bhelen wanted to do what's best (I've flipped-flopped multiple times, but in the end I would now choose Harrowmont) and it was a good idea on what he wanted to do for his people, it would had guaranteed him to be an absolute monarch where his word was law and no one could challenge or oppose him. Harrowmont was more identified as a constitutional monarch than anything, and he's proved it in many of his dialogue choices. Aside from that, there are always "future kings" that the Assembly could choose and do better than either Bhelen or Harrowmont. And ALSO, in the actual reality/real world, if nobles/people/commoners learned that Bhelen was a kinslayer, it would be VERY unlikely for people to vote for him or choose him to be king. If they chose to overlook the title of "kinslayer," then it's mostly because of his radical changes and ideas. Or at least, that's what I think would happen.
+SelvsLeaderCarson Honestly, Orzammar's Assembly is worse than a Dictatorship. The Assembly is run primarily by Nobles, most of whom look down on everyone below them, are stuck up in tradition, and are only out to advance their own power. It is as absolute as any dictatorship, because the nobles can have lower castes killed just for 'bad mouthing' them, and every law they pass can not be questioned. The only difference is that it is much less effective than a Dictatorship, because whenever there is a deadlock the entire government stagnates, and the previously mentioned obsession with tradition and personal ambitions will always get in the way of rational decision making. You may argue that a better constitutional monarch will rise... but we honestly don't know that. Bhelen actually tried to be a constitutional monarch, but the Assembly kept trying to kill him and block the proposals that would have helped drive back the Darkspawn and improve life for the lower castes, so he had to get rid of it. Meanwhile Harrowmont gives in to the Assembly's every whim, and his rule will only give them more power and isolate the Dwarves from the surface. Now, the next reformer who comes along will also have to worry about undoing Harrowmont's mistakes. Reformers like Bhelen are rare, and you need to take them when you can get them. Especially when Orzammar's days are numbered - there may not be another reformer. And if Orzammar falls, that just leaves Kal-Sharok. Lyrium prices will skyrocket because there is only one source left, and the Darkspawn will be able to focus all their efforts on Kal-Sharok. Once that is done, they have nothing to distract them from actively raiding the surface or searching for Archdemons - they will have the full run of the Deep Roads.
Or better yet, the dwarf noble son becomes king and you can be his advisor or chancellor. It wouldn't be so odd, since depending on the endings: Alistair can leave the Wardens; furthermore, Anders leaves the Wardens for good in Dragon Age 2 as well.
I can't decide between who to make a king! I want to move Orzammar to a new age, but I don't want to help that traitor. Someone please message me and help me choose lol
HiPeRdUdElOlZ Dwarven Politics are mean, vicious and bloodthirsty. Harrowmon is playing the game just like Bhelan. howwormont would keep in place an oppressive, mean social system that will doom the dwarves.
I hate to say it, but change is hard and often doesn't come without opposition. But with the right rulers, change can be a good thing despite the difficulties. For Instance, Abraham Lincoln was a good man, but he did many questionable things in order to change the Union for the better.
as noble I always worked against Bhelen ... revenge and all ... until I knew he would give you your house back and have a beter rule ... he did what must be done
Well, Harrawmont does the same once you beat the Archdemon, you can Gorim can both go back, you become the heir to house Aeducan and you become a Paragon :D
@@astralaris8712 At the price of the Casteless suffering, the Nobility/Assembly using Harrowmont as a rug, and Orzammar cutting itself off from the surface, which is essentially starving itself, and surface dwarves because Surfacers = Casteless. Surface debts? Let the surfacers deal with it since "They aren't dwarves anymore". Harrowmont. A good guy, but, pandering towards the Nobility far too much.
@@TheJinx1441 My first palythrough was as a Noble dwarf, my problem is that Bhelen doesnt even TRY to tell you why he should be King. While Harrowmont actually tells you why you should make him King, along side the fact that your Father wanted him as his successor. I havent played any other Origin yet, so i dont know how Bhelen to the other Origins. My point stays however, as a Noble dwarf, Bhelen isnt the better choice.
@@astralaris8712Yeah, that's my issue too. BioWare made a good moral choice, but it only works as one with meta knowledge for the most part, since they dont elaborate on Harrowmont or Bhelen's policies anywhere near as much as they should. It ends up just being "choose the dick or choose the chill dude".
Meh, my Warden isn't a fortune teller, sorry Bioware. Gambling that Bhelen's ambitions will ultimately align with the interests of Orzammar is a guessing game, while you know Harrowmont's intentions right from the start. I feel like players shouldn't be punished for outcomes that are barely foreshadowed.
I know your comment is two years ago, all you needed to do was to listen to the criers in Orzammar, you’d understand that Harrowmont is a hardcore conservative who hates the casteless while Bhelen is the progressive one who wants to improve life for the casteless.
The only good option is Harrowmont and giving the dwarves the ability to create more golems. You have a man who isn't as power crazy as bhelen and has the ability to expand their empire thus giving opportunity for the castless to improve their lot. Bhelen was too much change at once for the society to bring anything that would be lasting.
Well I understand the point you gotta remember how the golems were made and the Assembly would definitely decide to abuse that. As for Bhelin, what he does for Orzamar is often mention throughout the other games. The only way I think you can prevent the Harrowmont route from the constant incites of civil war is by giving the power of golems him. But Harrowmont is often portrayed as a doormat, which the assembly again will take advantage of. There's pros and cons to both options
Ironically, if you give Harrowmont the Golems, he becomes WAY more tyrannical and oppressive than Bhelen ever could be. He practically signs Orzamar's death warrant. He kills all of Bhelen's supporters with the Golems then he uses them to complete eradicate Dust Town and kill every single Casteless Dwarf that he can find. He refuses to trade with the surface and turns away military aid against the Darkspawn from Ferelden. He then also orders raids on the surface, where Dwarves capture Elves and Humans and force them to become Golems. If you don't give him Golems, Bhelen's supporters wage a shadow war against him for his entire reign, making it impossible for him to rule in any meaningful way, and he eventually dies from stress and exhaustion, leaving no natural candidate for the throne and Orzamar decends back into chaos. The ONLY decision for the greater good of Orzamar is Bhelen. He's a ruthless monarch, but every policy and ruling he makes literally sees Orzamar prosper, with or without the Golems. He sees Orzamar go from a elective monarchy to an absolute monarchy. He's no more ruthless than some of the greatest kings and queens of European history
Man, no matter how much of scumbag Bhelen is, you gotta give it to him that his rule is the best thing for dwarves in Orzammar, since he himself understands how the noble houses are drying out and hence gives the castless better rights in exchange for service in the army, despite his treacherous ways, he really is a revolutionary.
i dont mind bhelen doing what he did. he was just playing the game to take the throne its what every one does who has a claim to it. so i cannot be mad at him but he does make a good king tho so i can support him.
Honestly, I can't forgive bhelen for all the hurt he's caused his entire family (well, it depends on how you made your character, apart from me, I didn't want to kill Trian). I can't trust him with that kind of person. Sure, he's a good leader to get things done, but I would always choose harrowmont. And then killing him would do great justice to Trian and the noble dwarf's father.
I don't like the nonsense that Harrowmont will have less contact with a surface after coronation, while Belen, on the contrary, will more. I don't want to choose Belen because he is a bastard. Probably, this is the beauty of the game, that there is no perfect choice.
I mean yeah he’s a bastard, but it makes sense that he would make the reforms where harrowmont wouldn’t. Bhelen sees the loopholes and the red tape it creates, he sees how it keeps him and other dwarves from doing things a better way than currently exists. Harrowmont sees no issue with current dwarves society, so he wouldn’t reform anything beyond redeeming u personally cuz he likes u.
@@nikik5567 Not really. Bhelen just wants political power and wealth and use the casteless as cannon fodder against darkspawn and also use the carta as his lackeys. Some people really stretch a mile to give Bhelen a good morale. He does everything from a selfish reason.
@@requiem5151 oh of course he’s selfish. But he’s also very savvy. He knows the things that bind him bind others. So by freeing things up for himself, it frees up things for everyone else. Which in turn helps him, as it makes it seem like he’s a great king. It’s a very clever way to do things. He serves himself twice over with a single action. He knows how to play a crowd when he wants to. He knows the plight of his people and how ending it is in his benefit. I never said he did it for good reasons. Just that he sees what Harrowmont is too blinded by tradition to see.
dwarven campaign is by far the best in the game story wise... is VERY well done.. a shame that we dont have more warven armors though.. the normal human armours lokk HIDEOUS on dwarves... its hard because bhelen is obviously a better king even though he is a scumbag
Ok.....I am.playing through this yet again and something never set right about this which i couldn't place my finger on until now. Why do some of the senate have mages staves for. We all know "dwarves dont have the aptitude to cast even the simplest of spells"
@@TheJinx1441 normally that would be dead on correct. But this is the Dragon Age Universe where no such weapon is Ever used in any aspect of the game. Trust me I would love to see such martial weapons incorporated into the series.
Here's how it goes down. If you're a dwarven prince/princess, it makes more sense for you to side with Harrowmont. With any other origin, why question the succession? you go for the king's last son.
Whenever I played dwarf noble I'd be a traditionalist and side with harrowmont even tho he's trash as king and causes more problems with the surfacers but as dwarf commoner I'd side with bhelen in hopes of bringing orzamar to the modern era
I'd like to make my dwarf noble an spoiled brat who dosen't give a f, and then karma hits him and hes become an exile, but killing archdeamon is his redemption
I just finished playing Nobel dwarf story and did bhelen stuff and then when it came to choosing the king I gave him the finger and chose harrowmount. So satisfying 🤣. When I read the letter of the father I wanted to cry.
Choose Harrowmont and the war for the throne will start again. He will keep traditions, which will kill him. Choose Bhelen, who have taken everything from you because of those traditions, but will end those traditions.
![Return to the Circle [party comments] | Dragon Age: Origins](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/m6-kbYkEzq8/mqdefault.jpg)
![Return to the Circle [party comments] | Dragon Age: Origins](/img/tr.png)
![Orzammar [party comments] | Dragon Age: Origins](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GxA1YAHSicQ/mqdefault.jpg)
This looks like a fun return to Orzammar. I was mad that the human noble never came back to Highever.
***** True but they return to a familiar setting in the Brecillian Forest. You could argue Redcliffe as familiar for the Human Noble but it doesn't have ties to the Cousland character.
At least you get to kill Howe.
Colin Drimmie True, but I wish you could of got the last words, after he said "Maker Spit on you..." I wish I could of said, "No, you deserve nothing!" and then decapitated him.
That would've been epic
@ShadowSamuel but at least you visited the ruins in witch hunt
I swear, every time I go to Orzammar, I want to grab that captain of the guard and toss him into the pits, regardless of what origin.
Same
"Yes you should"
Hey brother... Remember captain of the guard at the gates?
Pls do me a favor and drop him to the nearest lava pit while I'm gone
Byye
Orzammer can fuck off to hell.
@@ElMarcoHoJ Along with the Fade
My dwarven noble went against the grain and helped Bhelen: part of it was because she knew he'd make a better king and not weigh Orzammar down in tradition in a world that changes every day, but there was also a more insidious, petty reason.
When you get to Orzammar, it's made clear that Bhelen is losing support: it's still a tie, but his followers are dwindling due to the rumors about how unsavory his means of achieving the throne were. In other words, for all of Bhelen's ruthlessness and lofty ambition, he would ultimately have failed if not for you.
Making Bhelen king as a Dwarven Noble is ultimately a cruel kindness: now he knows that he would never have achieved anything he has on his own, and that the only reason he's king is that Big Sister/Brother had to come back and clean up their little brother's mess. Even exiled and honorless, they were still more capable and had more sway than he did, and THAT is a humiliation all on its own.
And now, Bhelen has to live each day on the throne knowing he did nothing to deserve it, nothing to earn it, that he's ultimately a failure compared to his older sibling. It cuts even MORE when you remember that the Dwarven Noble becomes a PARAGON: they'll forever be a pillar of dwarven society and a figure to look up to, while kings come and go. No matter what Bhelen does, he'll forever stand in their shadow, both in his reign as king and also in the impact they have on society.
And THAT...is the greatest revenge you could ever take.
Okay
That's brilliant
Damn that’s cold
thats literally what i did for my dwarf noble for all those petty petty reasons 👁👅👁
I mainly did it because I wanted my name cleared and back into House Aeduan. The only thing wrong was I wished I could crown myself. But not to be and have Leliana be my queen.
Plus my business has nothing to do with an entire nation, it would be childish to let it out on thousands of lives because I got salty. Nor can I blame Bhelen, power corrupts, even the greatest people of us can be corrupted. And yes what you said is true, I like the idea of cruel kindness. A disarming candor that destroys every snake without any use of violence.
The choice of king for Orzammar was always one of the harder choices for me. Because even though I don't like Bhelen, he does support policies that I would actually like for his people.
Giving the castleless better opportunities, reducing his nation's isolationism, and several other things I would want for the dwarven people. Harrowmont, while more likeable, would just keep things as they are, which is pretty much a downward spiral at this point.
pfft...Dwarven traditions...i thought that died when the Dwarves lost the Deep Roads.
i know the other missions were rather straight forward choosing mages over templars dalish over werewolves and such but this is the most difficult to choose its either a good guy with bad ideas or a ahole who does good
ventus12312 also the missions and ways they carry out, I think that provides some pieses on some other things in the city, with the ahole with good rules with some shady tactics for various reasons with a good, honest guy that keeps some of the least favorable ideas. makes you think who will REALLY make orsamar better huh?
I always chose Bhelen as king after i learned that Harrowmont dies. seemed a waste after doing all that work.
yeah but Bhelen is an asshole :(
Bhelen: Dick, but makes a positive change
Harrowmont: Decent, but is a doormat to the nobles and Orzrammar goes further down
More like Bhelen, dwarven version of Celene. Except sleeping with an elf part.
Harrowmont is dwarf Trump. Bhelen is dwarf Hillary
@@sambishop9856 Shut the fuck up
Harrowmont needs Brankas Golems to enforce his rule in Orzammar. If you let Branka keep the anvil of the void, the end dialogue will reflect that Harrowmont won against the remnants of Bhelen's supporters with the help of her Golems.
If you choose to destroy the anvil and not make Golems, then yeah, Harrowmont is as efficient a ruler as a wet paper bag.
@@sambishop9856 That's legitimately the most retarded failed observation one could make about Dragon Age and the real workd. Completely the wrong way around, as if it needed to even be said.
Ah, the dwarf noble. Possibly one of the greatest - if not the greatest - origin story in this game. Unlike most of the others, this one has people debating a major impact point on the story, adding a personal layer to it and asking "what are you going to do - go with your gut and get revenge with Harrowmont or divide up and play nice with your brother?"
AngryIrishBenjamin Female city Elf rogue is the best imo. Ripping thru the alienage at the end as an elf is huge and to see the rascism thru out the whole story is interesting as well. Also you can make a pretty hot Elf.
I agree with you both, I’ve played all Origins and though I do like the elf perspective but the Dwarf Noble throws you right into a major part of Dragon Age Origin’s story, the fate of the Dwarven Throne
Jake M. I didn’t say it wasn’t important, the Elf is important for the entire series but for Origins specifically the Noble Dwarf background does have a major stake in the story, u alter the relationship Dwarves have with the surface and choose the new king of your people and true as well for the Dwarf they can choose the king of Ferelden
@@Bubbles99718 I kinda like that but with a male city elf, in that way nobody dies, except for those dicks who crashed my wedding, can you believe the gall to there rudeness...............................one problem with city elf origin, and don't judge me, but I'd rather marry my cousin then my fiance..........weird.
I like all honestly, every origin story had it's charm and fun, so i can't decided which is my favorite.
Congrats brother! I would like you to meet my friend, Zeveran...
That is a beautiful comment, you need more likes.
@@commanderdanielcousland9981 It deserves 0 likes. Dumbass can't even spell Zevran's name right.
Hey Bhelen, you should spend some time with my War Hound here, alone in a room together.
What's his name? Just call him Dog if you want it doesn't matter
Bhelenkiller: *Excited Bark*
I wonder if there is any new dialogue for supporting Bhelen, but giving the crown to Harrowmont at the very last second. A fitting repayment for being betrayed by a brother.
I think you can lie at the coronation moment when they ask you what he said the paragon, so even if you supported the other you can betray him jejeje
i did that with my noble human. behlen was more upset and i had to deal with all of his fanatics swarming me after but it did feel pretty good.
@@HaxAras I did this 20 minutes ago
I was actually sure that behlen was a bad choice then I relaize what kind of dumb fuck harrowmont was
Yes you can, if you finish the quest line amd speak with the other champion that craft the crown they will be like "who tye champion told you to give the crown" and you can do Sike! To the one you were Helping at the last moment.
Really trying to not hate Bhelen... but he has to keep giving me lip... sigh. Earned the right to rejoin House Aeducan?? Why I oughta... *trout slap*
It plays out better if you kill Trian I think.
Worth noting: that means Bhelen has officially pardoned you, and restored your House. Harrowmont does not do anything of the sort.
@@Blazieth He does once you beat the game, after the Archdemon Gorim will tell you that both of you are allowed to go back, you become the Heir to House Aeducan and a Paragon!
@@astralaris8712 IIRC, that's more the Senate as a whole rather than Harrowmont himself - Bhelen gives you the royal pardon directly, in person, immediately.
The Paragon thing happens regardless, I believe.
@@Blazieth I just ended my playthrough a few hours ago xD Its said in the credits buuuuut i forgot it....
Still, once i play as any other than a Noble dwarf i may get more info on what Bhelen wants, cause as Noble he deserves to suffer....
Bhelen is undoubtedly the better king, especially with us being able to see the effects of his reign in Inquisition, but hot damn if I wouldn't dunk him in the lava for a Klondike bar and an alibi
Totally. It's just a lame way for the game to appear less "black and white". "Look : the bastard who ruined your life happens to be a great king !" Yeah, sure... That is GoT season 8 level of "subverting expectations".
@@Damocles16 but many great kings were terrible people.
@Damocles16
Waaah, I cant’t just choose a selfish option I always choose in rpgs and feel good about it, here my choice can have consequences, I don’t want to think, bad writing Bioware, ma head hurtin…
Typical - people like you are the reason why stories in video games are usually black&white braindead nonsence, so simpletons line you wouldn’t throw a temper tantrum they face something more complex. Go play Call of Duty and stay out of RPG genre
I wish the Dwarven Noble could claim the throne for him-/herself. Like the Human noble.
That would’ve been a cool little thing for that origin, clearing your name and claim your rightful place. Even having later events be close to Harrowmont, or Bhelen, or both of them depending on some choices presented after the Archdemon is killed.
Claiming the throne and leaving Harrowmont as your regent while you battle the Blight would be the best resolution in my opinion.
Why? Isn't Dwarven warden would become a paragon? Isn't that better?
@@redpanda3339 It's better for a dwarf commoner, imo, as it's mentioned often i. the origin when talking to Rica.
@@katie5998 Dwarf Commoners doesn't become Paragon at the end. They start their own warrior caste. However, you might become a Paragon depending on the debates in the assembly but as a dwarf noble background after choosing one of the sides, your name has been clear and it makes you noble once again because of that in the end, you are declared Paragon after your deeds against the blight.
Kind of wish there was an option to put Bhelan on the throne, then introduce him to mr muder knife
TheSilverPhoenix100 Or let him make the killing blow on the Archdemon and claim you did it...
+TheSilverPhoenix100 Who would be king, then? If Harrowmont and Bhelen _both_ lost the throne, as you suggest, then the infighting would worsen as their two sets of supporters fractured into many smaller groups. And when it's just Harrowmont vs. Bhelen, they're already on the verge of civil war over the matter. Which, no matter how you feel towards Orzammar, means no dwarven warriors for the battle on the surface, which means more surfacers of all sorts will die.
blarg2429 Im pretty sure I could convince Sandal to lend me a hand, and if anyone disagrees well....ENCHANTMENT
TheSilverPhoenix100 In practice, that sounds like it'd just be more awful civil strife. In theory, though, you're a genius.
+blarg2429 I'm sure a certain Dwarf Noble could take the throne.
Mardy calling the son Endrin is kinda awkward considering that Bhelen also has a son called Endrin. congrats old man both of the only grandchildren you'll ever have are named after you. (unless you do the nasty with Morrigan of course then there'll be three grandchildren.
No problem on the last front.
he is named Kieran afterall.
That's why I'm naming him Duncan.
Loved being a Noble, pretending to be on Bhelen's side, and then choosing Harrowmont at the last second xD
That is exactly what I always do whenever I am a noble dwarf lol!
Your mistress looks like Triss Merigold as a dwarf
I think... that's the point of the mod. Looks funny tho.
It is mod to make dwarf look liek triss from witcher games.Also can do it for elfs and humans
I think main irony Triss is a mage.
I'm kind of surprised Bhelen responds the way he does when you mention you have a son. Considering he has his own Casteless lover and son, it seems extremely hypocritical. Especially because he does give the casteless more opportunities and whatnot. Either his actions towards the casteless are purely to curry their favor and support OR he's deliberately being a shit because you are... well, the brother he got exiled.
Usually I don't mind siding with Bhelen in other playthroughs but for Dwarven noble I can see it being super hard not to side with Harrowmont.
Also I'm kind of curious what Bhelen says if you pick 'you're wrong, I never plotted against you or Trian', since that's what my dwarf noble warden would say.
If I remember right, something along the lines of "well then you're weak, we both would've plotted behind your back anyways, you would've made for a poor ruler," or something like that
There's actually a pretty simple explanation for that. He's a piece of shit
If I'm a Dwarven Noble I choose Harrowmant and if I'm a Dwarven Commoner ,or any other race/origin, I always choose Bhelen.
good point
Fair enough point, being a Noble gives you more perspective in why Harrowmant is better
I agree with you because with the noble dwarf you will have a better understanding of who would lead the Dwarfs but with any other race even a commoner choice would be with bhelen
@@HexagonalspyTheSpy or to spite on your brother who you would killed your father, tried to kill you and who you wanted to lead instead of you so this was just a revenge
MAAD TEE or Justice done if you have played the noble dwarf and have the better understanding. Besides “revenge” is hardly described from what has been done justice is more appropriate.
to think that the game recognizes bhelen as a better king than harrowmont. hes such a damn dickwad, he killed one brother and framed the other, possibly poisoned his father, and yet hes supposedly the one who supports trade with the surface and accepting the casteless into the army whereas choosing harrowmont invokes civil war among the dwarves for decades? dammit, bioware, you made this quest so much harder than it had to be -_-
You obviously no absolutely nothing of historical leaders. The worst scum were often some of the most stabilising and prosperous rulers.
People who were rumoured to have murdered their own children were known, factually I'll add, as rather good rulers for their time.
What they do to get power is absolutely and completely irrelevant, what they do as rulers is all that matters and Bhelen is a good ruler.
He's still a twat though.
Theres is a BIG difference between good person and good ruler. Its rare to see both. Putin (great leader, bad person), Obama (good-ish person, but crappiest leader), Churchill (great leader), Hitler (great leader), Merkel (bad person and even worse leader xD ).
Bioware made it realistic. You want your ego (aka naive leftist "save the world with kindness" attitude) be happy...Harrowmont. You want to actually see a great, prosperous nation...Bhelen.
Think of Augustus Ceaser, he was an asshole but he brought the Roman Empire into a Golden Age.
Thats what Bhelen is.
Harrowmount is Jimmy Carter, a good loyal man, but a terrible leader.
It’s realistic. In real life there’s no perfect choice
@@wickedtriomcz9467 Didn't Hitler lose?
Muahahaha when I played my female dwarf noble I did the most evil thing available to Behlen...
I told him I'd help him, made him trust me...and when it came to choose King guess whaaaaaaaat.....
Harramond Muaha muaha muahahahahaha.....oooo "you mad bru??? Take that oooo in yo face yeah!" XD......o.O
......was that too much?
It DOES serve as a very nice "take that" to Bhelen as revenge for your origin. Little brother turned out to be a master of "the game", but big sister watched, and learned VERY well.
Definitely oh it was so satisfying to see how mad he got hehehe
Lmao
As a noble I supported Bhelen...Only to backstab him and give the crown to Harrowmount, shows him right for framing me for kinslaying
The dwarf noble is one of my favorite origin stories. I loved the drama involved and I loved coming back and everyone reacting to your character's heritage.
Believe it or not, I had my dwarf noblewoman side with Bhelen mostly because I liked his epilogue better than Harrowmont's. In my head cannon I had her punch Bhelen in the face when she meets him again. While she didn't get to be queen of Orzammar, my character does have the king of Ferelden as a boyfriend. ^_^
Meanwhile, my elf mage is the boyfriend/husband of the Divine (Leliana) and best friend of King Alistair. That must let the noble of both Ferelden and Orlais crazy.
Playing according to what the endgame slideshow will tell you kind of ruins the immersion... You're just ticking boxes !
During the quest, you have no reason to think that Belhen will be a good king. His claims are just words by a an opportunistic kinslayer trying to rally as much suppport as he can.
@@Damocles16Tbf, the crier says he'll help the Casteless. Bhelen making that claim won't help his claim to the throne, since Casteless can't vote and the Assembly is 90% traditional types who would hate that. So it's believable that Bhelen would actually be telling the truth about helping the Casteless, especially since a Noble can stumble across Rica in his bedroom.
Is it bad that I find that messenger at the beginning hilarious?
"Kinslayer? Oh, *you're* not getting in."
I always wondered why the messenger says "King Loghain" instead of "Teyrn Loghain." I took this as a sign that Loghain's plan was more self-centered than he claimed.
I think it's just blind loyalty. Remember that many of Loghain's supporters practically worship him. So that guy probably WANTS Loghain to be king. He may have also said it to avoid appearing weak, because if he had referred to Loghain as either a Teyrn or a Regent, it would be the equivalent of shouting: "Hey! Our King is dead and he has no heir!" Remember, they are *demanding* the allegiance of the dwarves, not asking nicely, and when you demand something you need to look strong.
@@Former_Halo_Fan Also, the Dwarves don't act without a King. They wouldn't converse with anyone less as well.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. You're more likely to see results by playing up ranks or clarifying positions. Teyrn doesn't have the same authority as King, and would confuse and delay the courts. Bureaucracy looks for ways to complicated things. And for all intents and purposes, he is the King at that time.
@@canadian__ninja In Medieval times, falsely referring to someone as king could probably be considered an act of treason. And as isolated as the dwarves are, they probably are aware that Cailan was the previous king, thus this statement should be met with some confusion.
@@Blokewood3 Kings die, it happens. As it happens, the issue presented in this scene as you know is that the Dwarven king is himself dead so at the moment I'm sure they aren't questioning it too closely. As this is a Dwarf noble start the dwarves (nobility at first but these things have a way of spreading) would be well aware of the at the time upcoming battle in the Kokari Wilds.
Will you be doing one for the female Dwarf noble? It had some pretty great dialogue too, although obviously none of that stuff with Mardy
"Prince Bhelen, tries to take the throne, only to be ostensibly slain. Epic fail!"
That part killed me!
When I played with other races, Bhelen was always my choice, because of his speech, he would be a better king. But then I played as a female dwarf princess and he bastard betrayed me!! I hate him I hate him I hate him
omfg same
Which is why Harrowmont is the more viable choice.
@@WarbossR0kt00fSant0s no he isn't harrowmont blows dick and sinks orzammar to the ground
"I'm going to call him young Endrin." That's not gonna be confusing at all.
Rica: ENDERIN!
Enderin 1: Yes, auntie?
Rica: Not you.
Enderin 2: Yes, mama?
Bhelen: ENDERIN!
Enderin 2: Yes, papa?
Bhelen: Not you.
Enderin 1: Yes, uncle?
Who is Enderin?
@@davosseaworth9479 It's a misspelling. Thanos meant "Endrin".
9:33 ah Alistair you are a king among the Morons!
I always thought that the dog was more intelligent than both of them.
It's easy enough for me to support Bhelen only if I am not a noble dwarf Origin. As a Dwarven Noble I can't do it without literal stomach pain popping up.
Those of you who support Behlen have clearly seen the conclusions of your decisions after finishing the game 😁
My thought exactly XD. Ticking boxes to earn the "best ending" not a fun way to play the game.
Or you play dwarf commoner. The dwarf commoners sister is Bhelen's concubine meanwhile I had no link to Harrowmont or knowledge of Bhelen's schemes. Hence I sided with Bhelen
@@Damocles16Eh, people can play as they want. I myself build character arcs for my characters based on what I know to create a narrative for them that works with the game's narrative.
so,there is no way your warden dwarf noble becomes king... meh
It is possible to maybe eventually become king/queen. Harrowmont names you as his heir if you pick him but then you get into questions of how long Harrowmont will live and weather your character would still be available to take the throne at that point.
You become a f*cking paragon, is that not enough.
suchiuomizu I know this was years ago, but Harrowmont dies in 9:41 Dragon. Origins takes place in 9:31 Dragon, meaning you would take over roughly a decade after the events of Dragon Age Origins.
tecs513 But in Inquisition, which is during 9:41 Dragon, the Warden is missing, trying to find a way to stop the Calling from happening. It's unlikely that a Dwarven Noble Warden will become King and the Assembly will most likely vote on a new King
How heartwarming but also sad is it that you can name your son Duncan
Amongst all of the origins I believe the fate of the dwarven noble to be the most tragic.
I always taught the city elves was harsh as well
I know that Bhelen would make a better king... but I just couldn't. I couldn't chose him. I couldn't reward the horrible person that he is by making him king. I could not give him the satisfaction of his intrigues working out. I just couldn't. Even less after playing through the Dwarf Noble Origin. I'm not good at logical decisions.
Your right even if he is the right choice. I can't give him the right to the throne
@@ryanbelcher25rb
So, you'd rather Orzammar sink via a spineless king?
@@TheJinx1441 Harrowmont dies quickly giving the dwarves the chance to rebuild with a much better candidate than both Bhelen and Harrowmont ever were.
@@Mieke192 Is that confirmed somewhere in the sequels or non-game material, because I don't remember any confirmation of Harrowmont's death? And having him die too soon could get complicated in that if you play the Dwarf Noble, he name's you as his heir.
Orzammar one of my favorite places in the whole series. And I always love the entrance scene.
This is just the Anora problem all over again.
Do you support a despot that is a more skilled ruler, or an honest ruler who is less skilled?
Harrowmont is as Alistar. Bhelen is as Anora.
That so many people prefer the despot is concerning.
Metagaming, but what Anora achieved on the epilogue is achieveable via hardened Alistair so hardened Alistair is the best option. Harrowmont is a doormat of the nobles like two centuries of Roman Consuls before Julius Caesar shakes things up. Bhelen is Julius/Augustus Caesar that saw the ineffectual deshyrs and the caste system that held back the kingdom.
The issue with Harrowmont isn't that he's less skilled like Alistair. The issue is he's a doormat who affects no real change. Alistair, imo, is the right choice for Ferelden, but Bhelen is thr overall right choice for Orzammar.
The first time I played this game a choose Harrowmont without a doubt. Foolish boy I was.
Bhelen maybe an asshole, but is the right kind of asshole to give him a throne. Politics in the real world are no different concerning what Bhelen did against his brothers, in any case, it shows that he has the inteligence and balls to do something like that. At the epilogue, it gives Orzammar new and good policies as well as showing himself innovator and tyrant at the same kind. At least better that a king who REJECTS soldiers from the outside to help his people against the Darkspawn (After all, they are doin it great!), to weak to keep the nobles at bay and dies short after, undoing all the work that you have done. Screw that!
That's not foolish. You know your history : a roman general murders his competitors, then promises great reforms and wonders for the lower classes ! Does that ring a bell ? Usually he gets murdered a few years later and there is a civil war afterwards.
The game gives you no reason to think Belhen would be the better king. His father considers him a Tyrant, Trien sees him as immature. The game is just trying to look less "black and white" by telling you in the end "Look, the bastard who ruined your life is actually the good ending ! You let vengeance blind you, foolish boy !"
Don't fall for it man.
@@Damocles16The thing is, Bhelen doesn't benefit from being pro-casteless. They can't vote and 90% of the Assembly are traditional dudes who would go against that. He doesn't benefit from it like irl politicians promising it do, meaning that he's genuine about it. So yeah, don't think black and white, especially when the criteria is if they're a bit of a dick or not. Endrin is also a traditionalist like Harrowmont, so his word on if Bhelen would be a good king is kinda too compromised to trust.
I personally choose Bhelen even as a Dwarf, because Bhelen will lead the Dwarfs in a new era and not stay stuck in the old ways, i kind of think it like Wrex being the right leader for the Krogan race in Mass effect 3. Bhelen is strong and ruthless and has a big vision about his people, and even if some of them don't like it that wont stop him.
Yea but wrex isn't as big as an asshole as wrev or bhelen
Despite what bioware may have decided harrowmont would have made a much better king bhelen supporters made it difficult for him and managed to get rid of him but unlike bhelen harrowmont had all qualities a king needs a good brain a good tactian merciful will listen to you. And with a small bit convincing would probably help the casteless. Just think of all the loop holes in bhelens plan to get rid of the dwarf noble. It was incredibly unlikely and relied on many different factors that had alot more chance of going wrong than right bhelens cunning must be incredibly low to come up with such a half-arsed plan. Only dumb luck made it work. As for ruthless i believe that is a bad trait in a king or leader as in my mind it basically means murder everyone with a different opinion to you. Sure harrowmont would not be as good as endrin but based on lore common-sense and gamplay harrowmont would be a paragon king compared to bhelen. Casteless under bhelens rule are probably just cannon-fodder.
@@Neloth290Harrowmont would not help with the casteless. You could *maybe* convince him to try, but the moment he gets pushback from the Assembly, he'd back down. Because he's ultimately a spineless conservative more willing to keep things the same than change them. Also, literally nothing implies Bhelen treats the casteless like cannon fodder, that's making stuff up.
Damn, It sucks to be a dwarf.
Why does Harrowmont and other dwarves have staves? They can't do magic.
They hit people with them.
+Jani SIr They're probably symbols of power. Aside from that, they probably forge them as well, so it can't hurt to keep one with you to symbolize your status.
They used them to walk X'D when they come of old age Lmao
As you cant take weapons to Assembly...big, metal, pointy staff isnt a bad idea, dont you think? :P
I recall they used the staves as back scratchers
I just realized that the messenders call Loghain a King, despite the fact that he keeps saying he's only the regent and Anora is Queen
Bhelen is a tough choice, but only because his schemes are a bit too flamboyant. He's too obvious in his plots, even if they are sometimes effective. Ultimately, I do the first quests for Harrowmont then give the crown to Bhelen, if only to keep my hands mostly clean.
I did that to show Bhelen his place.
My dwarven noble agreed with Bhelen's ideas of change but of course he couldn't easily forgive what he did to him and the rest of his family.
So I taught him a lesson.. and when all hope was lost for him.. When he lost everything..
I made him king.
+Floris Kunst Pretty good idea actually.
Bhelen made me laugh when he respond to your son claims
I wish the warden could take the throne of Orzammar if the are a dwarf noble, or even commoner for the drama, like how the human noble can rule Ferleden with Alistair or Anora.
When the Noble is exiled, they have everything stripped; titles, names, and even history from the Shaperate record. "You will not exist, not even as a memory". That status is still the same when the Noble returns to call for the Blight. However, in the case of saving the world and continuing the Dwarves existence by extension, they make an exception to the Dwarf Noble.
Yes, Belhen happens to be a good choice for Orzammar... But only because the game tells you so in the end to trick you and trying to be less manichean !
During the quest, you have EVERY REASON to think he is just being an opportunistic demagogue trying to rally the lower castes. That's what roman generals did to take power. Your father beleived him to be a future tyrant, Trien beleived him to be immature and unqualified to even be a prince.
Moreover : your character is from a medieval traditionalist society. Leaving a double kinslayer on the throne and letting your honor tainted is just inimaginable. Unless there is a TON of dialogues and explaining bewteen you and your brother. But the game can't afford that. So that's a big NO.
Everytime i come or come back to Orzammar i always want to ask " *King* Loghain? I thought he was only the Regent." And even i really don't like Bhelen, i choose him over Harrowont to be King. Yes, he is a tyrant, but he brings Orzammar forward.
I would have liked to see thaat the dwarven Noble could be the one to become king... in fact, I still don't understand why that doesn't work.
Grey Wardens give up any personal claims to lands and titels when they join.
adam berntsson well... when you end the blight, you get to be a paragon. But I guess it's true. I just wanted to have the option.
Yea that's true. I guess it wouldn't make sense if you just became the king of orzammar instead of a grey warden, then suddenly the game is about something else entirely,
+adam berntsson Unless you're a human noble and future queen or king of Ferelden X'D Such favoritism towards humans LOL
Because when the Noble was exiled, their name was stricken from every record and wasn't part of any house, making it impossible for them to become the king. The only way to rejoin a house is by having a noble let you into theirs, which, in-game, only happens when you've made someone else king, and I don't think they'll give that up that quickly (especially Behlen).
Bhelen makes a better ruler, he opens trade and make caste irrelevant.
This Lord Auducken would have made a good Father. It's too bad we never get to see what happened to the boy in the following games. I fear Bhalen would have reneged on his word and probably had the boy killed.
Which would make the better king I wonder. I've also chooses harrowmont.
+Ralek Kelar Well, Bhelen would make the better king. IIRC Bhelen wants the casteless to fight the darkspawn, and actually do something. HE also wants to contact the surface more than harrowmont. Harrowmont is so stuck in traditions that he is helping the extinction of the dwarves in Orzammar
+Foxes4Psychos In my honest opinion of knowing fantasy lore and dwarves, aren't dwarves always stuck in traditions? This is proven in not only this game, movies (LOTR if you want an example), but also in books. Although Bhelen wanted to do what's best (I've flipped-flopped multiple times, but in the end I would now choose Harrowmont) and it was a good idea on what he wanted to do for his people, it would had guaranteed him to be an absolute monarch where his word was law and no one could challenge or oppose him. Harrowmont was more identified as a constitutional monarch than anything, and he's proved it in many of his dialogue choices.
Aside from that, there are always "future kings" that the Assembly could choose and do better than either Bhelen or Harrowmont. And ALSO, in the actual reality/real world, if nobles/people/commoners learned that Bhelen was a kinslayer, it would be VERY unlikely for people to vote for him or choose him to be king. If they chose to overlook the title of "kinslayer," then it's mostly because of his radical changes and ideas. Or at least, that's what I think would happen.
+SelvsLeaderCarson Maybe it's a terrible pun on being small-minded?
+Martyre20 Even if it means risking civil war in Orzammar
+SelvsLeaderCarson
Honestly, Orzammar's Assembly is worse than a Dictatorship.
The Assembly is run primarily by Nobles, most of whom look down on everyone below them, are stuck up in tradition, and are only out to advance their own power. It is as absolute as any dictatorship, because the nobles can have lower castes killed just for 'bad mouthing' them, and every law they pass can not be questioned. The only difference is that it is much less effective than a Dictatorship, because whenever there is a deadlock the entire government stagnates, and the previously mentioned obsession with tradition and personal ambitions will always get in the way of rational decision making.
You may argue that a better constitutional monarch will rise... but we honestly don't know that. Bhelen actually tried to be a constitutional monarch, but the Assembly kept trying to kill him and block the proposals that would have helped drive back the Darkspawn and improve life for the lower castes, so he had to get rid of it. Meanwhile Harrowmont gives in to the Assembly's every whim, and his rule will only give them more power and isolate the Dwarves from the surface. Now, the next reformer who comes along will also have to worry about undoing Harrowmont's mistakes.
Reformers like Bhelen are rare, and you need to take them when you can get them. Especially when Orzammar's days are numbered - there may not be another reformer. And if Orzammar falls, that just leaves Kal-Sharok. Lyrium prices will skyrocket because there is only one source left, and the Darkspawn will be able to focus all their efforts on Kal-Sharok. Once that is done, they have nothing to distract them from actively raiding the surface or searching for Archdemons - they will have the full run of the Deep Roads.
I just realized, the gate guard is has the same voice as that asian dude in Gears of War, Kim.
Also the Demon Hunter of Diablo 3
Al Potenciano And Medic in Team Fortress 2
Really, big thank you for posting all these awesome videos.
Amazing how much content there is in this game.
It would be really cool if the dwarf noble could become king. Sort of like you can become queen as the female human, or prince is a male human.
Or better yet, the dwarf noble son becomes king and you can be his advisor or chancellor. It wouldn't be so odd, since depending on the endings: Alistair can leave the Wardens; furthermore, Anders leaves the Wardens for good in Dragon Age 2 as well.
I can't decide between who to make a king! I want to move Orzammar to a new age, but I don't want to help that traitor. Someone please message me and help me choose lol
Help guide Orzammar to new era of outside culture! Help King Bhelen take the throne and start a golden age for Orzammar.
HiPeRdUdElOlZ Dwarven Politics are mean, vicious and bloodthirsty. Harrowmon is playing the game just like Bhelan. howwormont would keep in place an oppressive, mean social system that will doom the dwarves.
I hate to say it, but change is hard and often doesn't come without opposition. But with the right rulers, change can be a good thing despite the difficulties. For Instance, Abraham Lincoln was a good man, but he did many questionable things in order to change the Union for the better.
Behlen is a terrible person, but the better option for Orzammar.
as noble I always worked against Bhelen ... revenge and all ... until I knew he would give you your house back and have a beter rule ... he did what must be done
Well, Harrawmont does the same once you beat the Archdemon, you can Gorim can both go back, you become the heir to house Aeducan and you become a Paragon :D
@@astralaris8712
At the price of the Casteless suffering, the Nobility/Assembly using Harrowmont as a rug, and Orzammar cutting itself off from the surface, which is essentially starving itself, and surface dwarves because Surfacers = Casteless. Surface debts? Let the surfacers deal with it since "They aren't dwarves anymore".
Harrowmont. A good guy, but, pandering towards the Nobility far too much.
@@TheJinx1441 My first palythrough was as a Noble dwarf, my problem is that Bhelen doesnt even TRY to tell you why he should be King. While Harrowmont actually tells you why you should make him King, along side the fact that your Father wanted him as his successor.
I havent played any other Origin yet, so i dont know how Bhelen to the other Origins. My point stays however, as a Noble dwarf, Bhelen isnt the better choice.
@@astralaris8712Yeah, that's my issue too. BioWare made a good moral choice, but it only works as one with meta knowledge for the most part, since they dont elaborate on Harrowmont or Bhelen's policies anywhere near as much as they should. It ends up just being "choose the dick or choose the chill dude".
Bhelen
Baelish
- Both backstabbers
- Both oily smoothtalkers
- I HATES THEMS!
- Too similar sounding names
Any questions? lol
6:25
does that chick reminde anyone else of the witcher 2 version of triss merigold
Meh, my Warden isn't a fortune teller, sorry Bioware. Gambling that Bhelen's ambitions will ultimately align with the interests of Orzammar is a guessing game, while you know Harrowmont's intentions right from the start. I feel like players shouldn't be punished for outcomes that are barely foreshadowed.
I know your comment is two years ago, all you needed to do was to listen to the criers in Orzammar, you’d understand that Harrowmont is a hardcore conservative who hates the casteless while Bhelen is the progressive one who wants to improve life for the casteless.
The only good option is Harrowmont and giving the dwarves the ability to create more golems. You have a man who isn't as power crazy as bhelen and has the ability to expand their empire thus giving opportunity for the castless to improve their lot. Bhelen was too much change at once for the society to bring anything that would be lasting.
Well I understand the point you gotta remember how the golems were made and the Assembly would definitely decide to abuse that. As for Bhelin, what he does for Orzamar is often mention throughout the other games. The only way I think you can prevent the Harrowmont route from the constant incites of civil war is by giving the power of golems him. But Harrowmont is often portrayed as a doormat, which the assembly again will take advantage of. There's pros and cons to both options
Ironically, if you give Harrowmont the Golems, he becomes WAY more tyrannical and oppressive than Bhelen ever could be. He practically signs Orzamar's death warrant.
He kills all of Bhelen's supporters with the Golems then he uses them to complete eradicate Dust Town and kill every single Casteless Dwarf that he can find. He refuses to trade with the surface and turns away military aid against the Darkspawn from Ferelden. He then also orders raids on the surface, where Dwarves capture Elves and Humans and force them to become Golems.
If you don't give him Golems, Bhelen's supporters wage a shadow war against him for his entire reign, making it impossible for him to rule in any meaningful way, and he eventually dies from stress and exhaustion, leaving no natural candidate for the throne and Orzamar decends back into chaos.
The ONLY decision for the greater good of Orzamar is Bhelen. He's a ruthless monarch, but every policy and ruling he makes literally sees Orzamar prosper, with or without the Golems. He sees Orzamar go from a elective monarchy to an absolute monarchy. He's no more ruthless than some of the greatest kings and queens of European history
I don't remember Mardy...is she only seen for a dwarven male noble?
Yeah
If it is destroyed by the truth then it deserves to be destroyed- that is always why I ally with Harrowmont
Brynjolf sure has grown since Skyrim
Man, no matter how much of scumbag Bhelen is, you gotta give it to him that his rule is the best thing for dwarves in Orzammar, since he himself understands how the noble houses are drying out and hence gives the castless better rights in exchange for service in the army, despite his treacherous ways, he really is a revolutionary.
i dont mind bhelen doing what he did. he was just playing the game to take the throne its what every one does who has a claim to it. so i cannot be mad at him but he does make a good king tho so i can support him.
Honestly, I can't forgive bhelen for all the hurt he's caused his entire family (well, it depends on how you made your character, apart from me, I didn't want to kill Trian). I can't trust him with that kind of person. Sure, he's a good leader to get things done, but I would always choose harrowmont. And then killing him would do great justice to Trian and the noble dwarf's father.
Sadly, in realities of monarchy, honorable king doesn't mean good king, automatically.
5:35 Oh hi, Wrex
Oh shit, you're right.
I don't like the nonsense that Harrowmont will have less contact with a surface after coronation, while Belen, on the contrary, will more. I don't want to choose Belen because he is a bastard. Probably, this is the beauty of the game, that there is no perfect choice.
I mean yeah he’s a bastard, but it makes sense that he would make the reforms where harrowmont wouldn’t. Bhelen sees the loopholes and the red tape it creates, he sees how it keeps him and other dwarves from doing things a better way than currently exists. Harrowmont sees no issue with current dwarves society, so he wouldn’t reform anything beyond redeeming u personally cuz he likes u.
@@nikik5567 Not really. Bhelen just wants political power and wealth and use the casteless as cannon fodder against darkspawn and also use the carta as his lackeys. Some people really stretch a mile to give Bhelen a good morale. He does everything from a selfish reason.
@@requiem5151 oh of course he’s selfish. But he’s also very savvy. He knows the things that bind him bind others. So by freeing things up for himself, it frees up things for everyone else. Which in turn helps him, as it makes it seem like he’s a great king. It’s a very clever way to do things. He serves himself twice over with a single action. He knows how to play a crowd when he wants to. He knows the plight of his people and how ending it is in his benefit. I never said he did it for good reasons. Just that he sees what Harrowmont is too blinded by tradition to see.
too bad there isn't a mod to king yourself but leave someone in charge for some time
Bhelen's a Dick!!
dwarven campaign is by far the best in the game story wise... is VERY well done.. a shame that we dont have more warven armors though.. the normal human armours lokk HIDEOUS on dwarves...
its hard because bhelen is obviously a better king even though he is a scumbag
Evil bastard though he is, Bhelen makes the better king as his policies make Orzammar stronger and more prosperous. I always pick him over Harrowmont.
Harrowmont like a sponge king, Belen like a Thorin Oakshield
It's funny that Bhelen is a ruthless bastard but acts with some honor to his exiled brother when he is granted the throne.
Well, having a Grey Warden brother helps. Like how Augustus Caesar deified Julius Caesar so that people know that he's the son of a god.
Ok.....I am.playing through this yet again and something never set right about this which i couldn't place my finger on until now. Why do some of the senate have mages staves for. We all know "dwarves dont have the aptitude to cast even the simplest of spells"
Staves in the hands of Dwarves work as actual physical Staves...or maces.
@@TheJinx1441 normally that would be dead on correct. But this is the Dragon Age Universe where no such weapon is Ever used in any aspect of the game. Trust me I would love to see such martial weapons incorporated into the series.
Here's how it goes down. If you're a dwarven prince/princess, it makes more sense for you to side with Harrowmont. With any other origin, why question the succession? you go for the king's last son.
I always play Dwarven Noble and always get Exiled but i also choose Harrowmont as Dwarven King ✓
Patrick J Adams voiced Orzammar Noble
Whenever I played dwarf noble I'd be a traditionalist and side with harrowmont even tho he's trash as king and causes more problems with the surfacers but as dwarf commoner I'd side with bhelen in hopes of bringing orzamar to the modern era
A piece of Roman politics, no? It's like the Senate against Caesar. Augustus, that is. Bhelen just lacking his own Agrippa.
What level is best for heading to Orzammar? I really want to chekc it out.
“The King’s wiper”
sounds like a shitty job if you ask me
I'd like to make my dwarf noble an spoiled brat who dosen't give a f, and then karma hits him and hes become an exile, but killing archdeamon is his redemption
Wrex at 5:35
(His voice actor that is)
isnt this like a two week period?? how do dwarf women give birth that fast?
I hate Bhelen…but he does do the best job with the kingdom in terms of reforming it to have better relations with the rest of thedas
I just finished playing Nobel dwarf story and did bhelen stuff and then when it came to choosing the king I gave him the finger and chose harrowmount. So satisfying 🤣. When I read the letter of the father I wanted to cry.
what mods are you using?
So to prove that the Dwarf Noble is not a Kinslayer one has to slay the real Kinslayer. That is a strange development.
Choose Harrowmont and the war for the throne will start again. He will keep traditions, which will kill him.
Choose Bhelen, who have taken everything from you because of those traditions, but will end those traditions.
Hey man, how did you get that hair? If it's a mod then I'd like to know so I can get it.
If you mean the wardens hair it´s from a mod called schwarzalbenheim from dragon age nexus...adds many MANY hair- and beardstyles to the game ;)
Vicky B Thanks for that.
Orzammar = Orgimarr
Dwarf commer is better, by siding with Bhelen you aid the dwarves but also your castless family becomes royalty!
Nice hairstyle and armors. Mod?
i wonder how many thought they should name the child ... Alistair, an how Alistair would react if he was in the group when you say that~
Aaaaand then Young endrin meets his cousin ( Edrin ) from Bhelen's side ( Casteless dwarf origin's sister who gt preggy )
Isn’t their an ending epilogue for dwarf noble son?
Jerec Aeducan was falsely exiled for fratricide. He returned to validate the charge.
Orgazammar