Another reason I love this game so much is that they wrote all this cool dialogue between Loghain and the other companions despite you not even having him for all that long before the game finishes.
Old BioWare>any game company I mean just the rp alone makes the games S tier, I hope in DA4 that the main protagonist is the warden again cuz 1: imo the morrigan romance is the best so yeah 2: It’s undeniable BioWare hasn’t been what they were ME Legendary edition saved em somewhat but it was only a remaster if DA4 fails we may potentially not even get a ME4 and if that fails as well BioWare is finished so I’d say let us use any of the protagonists we want whether it be DAO, DA2, OR DA3 the MC is 100% our choice and the team is made up of everyone from the 3 games that can be there, leave it off with no cliffhangers however leave room for a sequel meaning don’t leave it on a “we’re done with these guys” ending but also not like a “the story isn’t over” ending same goes for ME4 since it’s possible shep will return
@@jarrett3556Sadly the protagonist cant be the warden nor cant it be hawke. You can either have the Warden alive or dead, so it wouldn't work to make a game based around them unless they completely retcon the Warden dying making your playthrough in Origins worthless since you would have no control of the story, the most they can do is have a cameo if your warden is alive in your story. It cant be Hawke cause you can also have him killed in Inquisition you cant based an entire game around him either cause then you would also have to retcon Hawke dying, how would he survive literally getting eaten by a giant spider demon and getting stuck physically in the fade. Most they can do is a cameo if he lives in your story. The Inquisitor would make the most sense as a returning protagonist but the end of Tresspaser clearly indicates that it will be another new protagonist. But unlike the other games I hope the Inquisitor appears regularly since our new character will be working for them in hopes of defeating Solas I also hope that we get a lot more new companions mixing new ones with olds ones from all the other games
@@deadx0092 they could make something like awakening where if your warden lives he's the new commander but if he died the commander will be a warden from Orlais
i think it's because the game wasn't supposed to end so soon after we defeat Loghain. The overall siege of Denerim feels rushed, as in the plot itself feels different from the others, especially the decision for darkspawn to attack Denerim and expose their flank. Either the connection between Origins and Awakening was supposed to have a path for which you would take loghain and others or the ending of the game was to be longer but they decided to maybe tell it in DLCs or future games which never really happened cause blight becomes lesser plot despite all the lore dumps
@@deadx0092 In fact, there is an option, which - by the DA:Inquisition - is canon, and let all Grey Warden stay alive. And there were other examples for long-living Grey Wardens. There could be a side game with the Origin's Warden as the main character to solve it's own problem, and then it could come back later in a continuity.
I love that the origins community is still alive and love this game just as much in 2022. I personally love origins. Best dragon age game ever, if it was remastered to 60fps and tweaked the textures👌 so much lore and such a great community
I just got origins on steam last month, just because i missed playing it.. Downside is i never make til the ending because the damnclass and race choise matters!
I must say I appreciate that you titled this "secret companion" rather than name him, most probably would've thought "it's an old game, everyone knows everything about it by now" but I know for a fact that there are still people out there only just now starting their first play through. :D
@@33rd_Dunadan Especially because the game itself spoils it! You can pick up gifts that say they're for Loghain before you've recruited him. I always thought that was so dumb.
It's adorable how after such a long time since release, people in this fandom still care not to spoil possible newbies to the series with the video titles.
While I understand why alistar leaves the party if the “SC” joins the party, I would of also enjoyed the tension between the two, imagine Alistar confronting “SC” about certain actions he’s done that caused death around Alistar.
In my opinion its better that alistar leaves if they join. Loghain took everything from him, so it makes sense that he sees him as irredeemable and he could never stand beside someone who did that to him and beside the MC who knows how he felt.
@@lordhelix2760 Which, ya know, is kinda fair. Why he's a bit whiny about it, and why it's smarter to induct Loghain as a Gray Warden, telling your companion to get over the death of his father figure and entire order is... not exactly fair honestly, mainly because I doubt people in Alistair's position wouldn't have done the same.
@nathan smith eh, to me it makes sense logain is responsible for mentor and friend dying along with his half brother, doesn’t matter how bad a family relationship is or was with him a brother dying is still a brother dying. Not to mention it could of very well been possible to beat the dark spawn there at the beginning if they got the reinforcement under Logain’s command
I am not a fan of him. But it is rather touching the interaction he has with the dog. I personally am Team Alistair forever 🥰😍😘 but I can see how Loghain became consumed by his bitterness to the point of self corruption. I honestly would have loved to see the animosity of Loghain and Alistair working together in the party. Loghain begins a path towards redemption and slowly but surely Alistair comes to forgive Loghain for his ignorance and his betrayal. But that didn't happen. I don't think ill ever swap out Alistair for Loghain...I just can't do that to Alistair.
After reading the books and allowing yourself to see him as more than just a traitor, killing him feels like such a waste. He’s a *very* well written character. For me it’s either giving him a change to redeem himself by dying killing the Archdemon or keeping him alive even after that through the ritual. I’m glad we can harden Alistair.
@AgirlnamedMichael I disagree. There always is redemption if there is a will to obtain it. It’s not about belittling what he did, it’s about working to be a force for something better
-Long post(Loghain is complex) and possible spoilers Its childish there is a Blight. If you just look at it as entertainment you fail to grasp the weight of the matter. You must immerse yourself as if you are living in the universe. Ferelden is almost wiped out and you would kill your/the best military commander and doom people and damage other nations for the sake of "justice/revenge"? The world would remember you as the idiot who let the best opportunity pass up. Killing Loghain only makes sense if you believe in the deus ex of The Warden. Real life is not like that though. Some people enjoy tall tales, I guess. Alistair should know better than most that Grey Wardens are made of people with terrible pasts, not everyone is a noble lordling. I mean, they do try to keep from messing with noble bloodlines if it can be helped. They don't want to antagonize nobility. Furthermore, Duncan kills Ser Jory in cold blood- implying GW do scummy stuff. So its okay if GW do scummy stuff and if non GW do scummy stuff its bad? You may argue well it's a Blight- well nobody knew but Duncan and Ferelden GW and they kept it a secret (big WTF) They were purposely vague in describing the situation to King Cailan...which made Cailan overconfident, more than his usual laid back personality would. Loghain was right for being serious and wary about the situation. Cailain pissed on every of Loghain's military strategies/counsel- the soldier at Ostagar tells you they have been fighting for weeks, he somewhat mistakenly thinks it's over queen Anora (foreshadowing of Return to Ostagar) But really it's about Cailain rushing the military operation just because he can't get his Orlesian wardens if he waits. Loghain wants to wait but not for Orlesian reinforcements but instead Fereldian. That's why Cailan rushes the operation since he isn't aware it's a real Blight because Grey Warden bs Moreover, one of the GW motto is: whatever it takes to win the Blight- Loghain has all the makings of GW, he is both honorable and cutthroat. The Orlesian wardens were aware of Ferelden and Orlais history and didn't trespass until they were summoned directly Ferelden. They were massively respectful despite the Blight granting them authority to steam roll through Ferelden. In Return to Ostagar, if your bring Loghain he learns Cailan was actually against Orlais helping (just like him) but still diplomatic towards them. Anora, Loghain's daughter, was the one conspiring with Empress Celene and manipulating Cailan into being pro Orlesian. If you spare Loghain in both Landsmeet and Archdemon he becomes pivotal in stopping Corypheous and preserving the legacy of the GW. 10 years after the events of the 5th Blight Loghain is a respected Senior Warden and a man wise from his mistakes, he admits his decisions in Fereleden were bad and despite his dislike of being reminded; he still takes all the flak thrown at him even 10 years after the events like a saint. He also becomes friends with Hawke from DA2. Loghain is arguably the most complex character in the series.
Loghain surviving the Landsmeet only to die striking the killing blow on the archdemon is a poetic end to a great antagonist. I had no idea he had all this banter though
it's also a way to reclaim justice. he did save Ferelden, but also almost destroy it as well. Killing the archdemon is a sentence and a way to reclaim his name.
I think my favourite part about Loghain is that he is fully accepts everyone's contempt. He is an aggressive character sure but everyone's hatred of him barely phases him. Except for, and here's what I love, the conversation where weyn accuses him of not caring about the soldiers he lost at Ostagar. The venom he drips in retort to that remark alone makes him one of my favourite characters ever written.
This give you a different view of Loghain. What he did was awful but I guess he's not completely evil, just blinded by war. I never had him as a companion when playing DAO but I just finished a DAI story where he joined the party and Alistair left to become king. He seems to be a better person.
@@johnherrera5261 you can, if you harden Alistair in his personal quest, you can convince him to be a king and stop whining, allowing you to marry him to Anora and keep Loghain.
It's really interesting to take Loghain with you on the "Return to Ostagar" DLC and get his reaction when he hears the contents of the letters between Cailan and the Empress of Orlais
@@markpreston8854 yeah I watched that on RUclips. He's real ass. That's said Calin marring Celene may have made sense on paper, but it would have been a political disaster for him in Ferelden.
@@LIONREV7 I checked wiki and it says he will kinda accept it only if Loghain kill archdemon and die. If u doing Morrigan ritual Alistair will be still angry.
@@shallowmess7981 It's implied that he still may resent you for the ritual, even if you did kill Loghain.. Personally I like it.. Two friends, almost like brothers, growing apart - he resents you but you still care for him.. "He's king, he's a better man than he was when we first met, and he has Anora -- I can live with that even if it means I earned his ire. "
There are also the banters with Wynn during Return to Ostagar DLC that are very interesting and gives more insights on his decisions to abandon Cailan. And of course, his little apparition in Awakening if both him and the Warden survived killing the archdaemon, it gives a little more closure to his character and briefly explains why he was sent to the grey wardens of Orlais.
The story about Loghain and his dog always makes me see him differently. As well as his conversation with Wynne about his men. Great writing. The newer games never make me feel like this
I never knew about the second interaction with the Dog. While I often traded a hardened King Alistair for Logain (it just seemed logical to have the extra warden just in case, and I figured eventually Alistair would forgive me since we were buddies), his interaction with the dog certainly makes me think they were right to tell me my Dog wasn't allowed to do the champion fight.
Cailan was going to divorce his daughter, and marry the Empress of Orlais. Orlais. The country that did all that dog kicking, and much more. I cannot blame him for leaving that rat to die.
@@katie5998 Of course there are. Your people. My people are heroes. Even if they do bad things that I disagree with, they're still my people and I still want what's best for them, especially against other people. My people produce heroes. Less of them now than before, but still, we do. I don't belong to a fictional nation, so I don't really care about that fictional nation. But in the abstract? You're quite wrong.
@@katie5998 Probably no point in trying to explain it. There aren't any spelling or grammatical errors there. Your people, my people, anyone's people, we all owe it to ourselves to value our people, especially against other people. In this story, Loghain did exactly that, and Cailan actively betrayed his people. He got what he deserved.
In my first play through all those years ago I beat Loghain and opted to kill him. Then he said his final line to his daughter and it hit my like a freight train. So I reloaded and saved Loghain at the cost of Alister who my warden had romanced and I was quite fond of. But… his words just hit me and ever since Loghain has been my favorite character in the franchise. His story about his dog is just so… painful
It always bothered me having to choose between SC and Alistair. Sten is right (like often), why waste ressources and kill one of Ferelden's greatest generals, loved by a large part of the nobility and the common people, only to please Alistair ? And at that point, there were only three Grey Wardens remaining in Ferelden ! THREE ! One more against the Archdemon couldn't have hurt. Alistair being like "to be a Grey Warden is an honor, blablabla" is completely beside the point.
The worst part is, if you don't make the right dialogue choices with Alistair at one specific moment of the game, and during the landsmeet questline, then choose SC over Alistair, he ends up being a useless drunk, never to be heard of again... I'm really glad they made it possible ***SPOILER*** for Alistair and Anora to get married after you recruit Loghain, it's really the best way to end the civil war in my opinion, even if it's at the cost of Alistair's friendship.
Bioware really have some strange views about right and wrong sometimes. Like, in Mass Effect 2, ***SPOILER*** the good ending is to destroy the Collectors base, Shepard says stuff like "millions of people died because of this base" But in the same game, at the end of Mordin's loyalty mission, to keep Maelon's data is the good ending, and when Shepard tells Mordin that Maelon's research was sickening, Mordin says "the Krogan females died for this. Keeping the data gives a meaning to their sacrifice". The same thing happens in Mass Effect 3. After the mission at the Sanctuary, Hackett himself acknowledges that, for all the horror that happened there, the data that Cerberus have gathered will be invaluable to finish building the Crucible. So how is destroying the Collectors base the good ending ? I will never get over this.
If he stood by Cailan and gave the orders for his men to not intervene beforehand, I would've believed his words about him loving his men. He is his king's men and family. It's part of his role to die alongside him. But no, he decided to pussy out and used his men as an excuse. Literally, no honor and credibility. I wouldn't want someone like Loghain to watch my six. Ostagar showed how much of a coward he was.
@@kaidanthecursed3534 super old comment I know but actually the full paragon decision is to destroy the data because Shep says it is wrong to use the data that so many lives paid for. It's a neutral or renegade decision to tell him to save it. It ends up being the correct decision of course, since it decides Eve's fate (she dies if you destroyed the data), but it's consistent- paragons always want to destroy it and grab the high ground morally, even if its not the greatest choice tactically.
Can you believe that the developer back then even wrote such deep lore and character even in their villains? The gaming industry have gone back to the stone age, it doesn't matter how good the equality or the visual graphics looks, if you can't connect to the characters you are just watching slide shows of tech demos.
The dialogue between him and Wynne is the best 👍. I find it amusing everyone says Loghain murdered Cailan but in truth Cailan really did rush to his own demise due to using a bad strategy for that battle against an immensely larger force that would have annihilated everyone even if Loghain did charge. Loghain did many terrible things but he is still one of my my top five favorite characters :)
If that were true why would Duncan go along with it? He was a practical man, if he believed the plan wouldn't work he would have spoken up. Instead, he endorses it and tells Cailan point-blank "The plan will work". Furthermore, Teagan also tells us that he doesn't believe Cailan would have risked his life on a plan that wouldn't work. Cailan would have survived if he had not led from the front, but that does not mean the plan itself was bad from beginning to end.
Loghain was the one who came up with that ‘bad strategy’ since he was the General of Cailan’s army and we see this in game. So yes, he did murder his King and Son in law.
Agreed. I love Loghain, so complex and interesting. I actually prefer him to Alistair and didn't feel all that bad about losing him when I recruited Loghain. Also, his voice actor is marvelous.
Loghain is not a bad character, on the contrary once you read the book and play the DLC The Wardens Keep you can understand a lot about him and his vision of the Grey Wardens and Orlais (of course the Wardens happened hundreds of years before but it is very referenced in the book as a reason for distrust of the Order). Moreover, there is content cut from Dragon Age Origins that shows that in the beginning there was an option to incorporate him into the party without losing Alistair...there are interactions between them that have been rescued via mods, supposedly it was repressed to give more drama to the Landsmeet and the confrontation between Alistair and Loghain for what happened Ostagar, but the option existed and the idea is that they forgive him and he recognized in our favorite blond a worthy heir of Maric. These interactions and his loyalty to the Grey Wardens confirms that he is a very interesting character, I always play DAO 3 times a year and always in one of them I choose him...I prefer Alistair but I don't fail to see that as a character Loghain is very deep and well built.
I didn’t even know these existed. But then again, I have never EVER let this man live. I’m 100% Alistair as I always romance him too. It’s interesting how decisions like these can make for such differing narratives. I’ve never not had Alistair as king. And I LOVE Wynne’s grilling of Loghain. And I’m chuckling at the idea of Loghain and Morrigan having to consummate for the god child. 😅
Just watched this, its really well done I enjoyed it, Dragon age is my favourite game series and origins my favourite, it brings me some joy knowing that some of the community for the first game is still alive to this day and still playing the game like I am despite still having a shit laptop with crappy specs, I hade proof of this from the comments I scrolled through.
Back when I was playing origins in my early 20s I never would have thought he would be my favourite origins character. I think a huge role in my change of outlook was also Regill from wrath of the righteous. I'm super sold on lawful evil types! Then again probably being in my late 20s also changed my opinion. Since before I only ever cared about Morrigan, Alistar and Leliana. Now I find my favourites are Wynn, Loghain and Shale :) Such a well written game and characters! ❤
I think killing him is a huge waste. He’s a very well written character and has even more depth through the novels. Giving him a chance for redemption feels right to me.
I play this game for many years now,and i always killing Loghain at lands meet,but i tried many playthroughs recently and then tried the option to letting him live and making him a grey warden, funny thing that such difficult character bioware decided to make him escape goat and then at the very end not killing the man but sparing him,great character voice by the great Simon Templeman aka the voice of Kain,long story short its more rewarding to spare him rather than just killing him imho.
So... One big reason why Loghain hate Orlesian is because they took his dog and pushed it to death? And then the guy assembled an army and repel them from his country? John Wick?
welp after that dog dialogue sorry alistair i have to pick loghain now. i understand his hate for the orlesians pigs now. alistair treated my pup horribly. #TEAMLOGHAIN
Loghain is one of my favorite video game characters, I always spare him. It’s quite rare in a game to be able to become best buddies with the « main » antagonist after defeating him
It gets worse. (Spoilers ahead for The Stolen Throne book) in the book his mother was raped by Orlesian soldiers which led his father to take young Loghain and flee to the forests after his vengeance where he raised him and they took in Fereldans hiding from Orlais and its abuse, refugees. His father died buying Maric to flee coming soldiers as the camp was destroyed.
As much of a bastard as Loghain is, I like that he has a soft spot for the mabari. We also share a hatred of Orlesians although I hate them for the silly mask and game and that they are insufferably French
Honestly if it wasn't for the fact Anora gives the pre battle speech if loghain lives I'd have recruited him more often. Sending him against the Fear Demon is so very appropriate. He defends the order he betrayed from the very crimes he accused them of.
It would be amazing if there was a mod that incorporated these cut scenes into the game somehow. They even have context-appropriate body language in some parts.
Logan may have not been a bad person, He had to choose his battles wisely and to be honest, If he did not pull out the forces at Ostagar, I am sure things would have lead to a greater loss.
The dog banter was incredibly enlightening. I can imagine a teenaged Loghain holding the corpse of his emaciated, beloved Mabari and swearing vengeance on those who brought his proud spirit-sister so low.
If only this much thought went into the other dragon age games. A shame really. Thanks for the vids though. Loghain has never survived the landsmeet in my games, and he never will 😂.
I played Origins so many times and I didn't know you could actually recruit herby temporarily Loghain into your party. That's my fault for always playing the same way though!
Why is it that his deal with a Tevinter slaver is not as bad as him retreating at ostagar? I can forgive ostagar I can't forgive the deal with a slaver of elves.
It isn't brought up as the Elves thing, as most of the other issues in Denerim, were Howe's fault. Howe organized and arranged everything, just like with the hiring of Zevran. Logain either just signed to let it happen, if he even knew about it before it was happening. Logain is a good leader though and takes responsibility for the actions done by his subordinates. Saying he might have done it anyway as the alienate was is a weak part of the city. You see he was right about this during the final battle in denerim
It's so weird, people's priorities are so weird. Literally thousands upon thousands died in ostagar, the retreat allowed for many villages to get pillaged, it's men killed and it's women taken to be made into monsters, and somehow selling people to buy an army to end the darkspawn threat worse?
@Ethan Schultz There was no reason to retreat from Ostagar at all, they were winning several battles against the darkspawn I hardly find him redeeming but killing him or sacrificing himself makes no difference to me as long as he's dead.
I actually always conscript Loghain because he is bad and self corrupted from his hatred of Orleisians, I thought recruiting him then making him be a Warden to begin the process of slowly redeeming himself. Even if none thank him or remember him for the good he's done as a Warden, remembering him as the traitor General, a regicide and a murderer of basically his son, since he basically regarded Cailan as a son.
My favourite outcome is always hardening Alistair's resolve so he'll marry Anora, and then recruiting Loghain and making Kieran the Warden's son so that Loghain, Alistair and the Warden all survive to Inquisition, at which point Loghain sacrifices himself to save a Ferelden Refugee who was forced to leave his home because of Loghain's actions at Ostagar.
![Rescuing the Warden [party comments] Part 1 | Dragon Age: Origins](/img/1.gif)
Timestamps:
00:00 Leliana
01:44 Morrigan
02:30 Oghren
02:57 Shale
04:34 Sten
06:03 Wynne
09:51 Zevran
10:36 Dog
what are your mods?
Me: “Gee, got a bit of prejudice there, Loghain? Chill out-“
Loghain: “They took my dog.”
Me: “Kill them. Kill them all.”
*John Wick intensifies*
Real
Adala…Anora, not the same name but similar enough
Another reason I love this game so much is that they wrote all this cool dialogue between Loghain and the other companions despite you not even having him for all that long before the game finishes.
Old BioWare>any game company I mean just the rp alone makes the games S tier, I hope in DA4 that the main protagonist is the warden again cuz 1: imo the morrigan romance is the best so yeah 2: It’s undeniable BioWare hasn’t been what they were ME Legendary edition saved em somewhat but it was only a remaster if DA4 fails we may potentially not even get a ME4 and if that fails as well BioWare is finished so I’d say let us use any of the protagonists we want whether it be DAO, DA2, OR DA3 the MC is 100% our choice and the team is made up of everyone from the 3 games that can be there, leave it off with no cliffhangers however leave room for a sequel meaning don’t leave it on a “we’re done with these guys” ending but also not like a “the story isn’t over” ending same goes for ME4 since it’s possible shep will return
@@jarrett3556Sadly the protagonist cant be the warden nor cant it be hawke. You can either have the Warden alive or dead, so it wouldn't work to make a game based around them unless they completely retcon the Warden dying making your playthrough in Origins worthless since you would have no control of the story, the most they can do is have a cameo if your warden is alive in your story.
It cant be Hawke cause you can also have him killed in Inquisition you cant based an entire game around him either cause then you would also have to retcon Hawke dying, how would he survive literally getting eaten by a giant spider demon and getting stuck physically in the fade. Most they can do is a cameo if he lives in your story.
The Inquisitor would make the most sense as a returning protagonist but the end of Tresspaser clearly indicates that it will be another new protagonist. But unlike the other games I hope the Inquisitor appears regularly since our new character will be working for them in hopes of defeating Solas
I also hope that we get a lot more new companions mixing new ones with olds ones from all the other games
@@deadx0092 they could make something like awakening where if your warden lives he's the new commander but if he died the commander will be a warden from Orlais
i think it's because the game wasn't supposed to end so soon after we defeat Loghain. The overall siege of Denerim feels rushed, as in the plot itself feels different from the others, especially the decision for darkspawn to attack Denerim and expose their flank. Either the connection between Origins and Awakening was supposed to have a path for which you would take loghain and others or the ending of the game was to be longer but they decided to maybe tell it in DLCs or future games which never really happened cause blight becomes lesser plot despite all the lore dumps
@@deadx0092 In fact, there is an option, which - by the DA:Inquisition - is canon, and let all Grey Warden stay alive. And there were other examples for long-living Grey Wardens. There could be a side game with the Origin's Warden as the main character to solve it's own problem, and then it could come back later in a continuity.
The Great thing is, Shale literally was the Golem Loghain encountered with Maric.
I love that the origins community is still alive and love this game just as much in 2022. I personally love origins. Best dragon age game ever, if it was remastered to 60fps and tweaked the textures👌 so much lore and such a great community
You would love some of the captures I have on my page
I love this game man
I just got origins on steam last month, just because i missed playing it.. Downside is i never make til the ending because the damnclass and race choise matters!
This game needs a remaster for completely!
This game needs a remaster for completely!
One of the best games ever!
Can't stop laughing at Zevran's report)
He's truly devastated. I can tell. 😂
I must say I appreciate that you titled this "secret companion" rather than name him, most probably would've thought "it's an old game, everyone knows everything about it by now" but I know for a fact that there are still people out there only just now starting their first play through. :D
Nothing Secret about it though.
Just finished my first playthrough hehe
Especially now because of the Dreadwolf.
It's like "Seven" in Xenoblade chronicles
@@33rd_Dunadan Especially because the game itself spoils it! You can pick up gifts that say they're for Loghain before you've recruited him. I always thought that was so dumb.
I just wanted to report, that I failed my mission. Flipping classic LOL
Loghain and Wynne talking about the Circle in front of a portrait of it was a smart touch.
Makes Sense that Wynne Is the most antagonic, with him and such funny moment with Zevran
It's adorable how after such a long time since release, people in this fandom still care not to spoil possible newbies to the series with the video titles.
a different breed for sure
While I understand why alistar leaves the party if the “SC” joins the party, I would of also enjoyed the tension between the two, imagine Alistar confronting “SC” about certain actions he’s done that caused death around Alistar.
@Ethan Schultz you are a absolute lad my man
In my opinion its better that alistar leaves if they join. Loghain took everything from him, so it makes sense that he sees him as irredeemable and he could never stand beside someone who did that to him and beside the MC who knows how he felt.
@@lordhelix2760 Which, ya know, is kinda fair. Why he's a bit whiny about it, and why it's smarter to induct Loghain as a Gray Warden, telling your companion to get over the death of his father figure and entire order is... not exactly fair honestly, mainly because I doubt people in Alistair's position wouldn't have done the same.
@nathan smith eh, to me it makes sense logain is responsible for mentor and friend dying along with his half brother, doesn’t matter how bad a family relationship is or was with him a brother dying is still a brother dying.
Not to mention it could of very well been possible to beat the dark spawn there at the beginning if they got the reinforcement under Logain’s command
@nathan smith I don’t dispute the king was a idiot what I do dispute is logain and his troops certainly could of altered the outcome
I am not a fan of him. But it is rather touching the interaction he has with the dog. I personally am Team Alistair forever 🥰😍😘 but I can see how Loghain became consumed by his bitterness to the point of self corruption. I honestly would have loved to see the animosity of Loghain and Alistair working together in the party. Loghain begins a path towards redemption and slowly but surely Alistair comes to forgive Loghain for his ignorance and his betrayal. But that didn't happen. I don't think ill ever swap out Alistair for Loghain...I just can't do that to Alistair.
After reading the books and allowing yourself to see him as more than just a traitor, killing him feels like such a waste. He’s a *very* well written character. For me it’s either giving him a change to redeem himself by dying killing the Archdemon or keeping him alive even after that through the ritual. I’m glad we can harden Alistair.
@AgirlnamedMichael
I disagree. There always is redemption if there is a will to obtain it. It’s not about belittling what he did, it’s about working to be a force for something better
-Long post(Loghain is complex) and possible spoilers
Its childish there is a Blight. If you just look at it as entertainment you fail to grasp the weight of the matter. You must immerse yourself as if you are living in the universe.
Ferelden is almost wiped out and you would kill your/the best military commander and doom people and damage other nations for the sake of "justice/revenge"? The world would remember you as the idiot who let the best opportunity pass up. Killing Loghain only makes sense if you believe in the deus ex of The Warden. Real life is not like that though. Some people enjoy tall tales, I guess.
Alistair should know better than most that Grey Wardens are made of people with terrible pasts, not everyone is a noble lordling. I mean, they do try to keep from messing with noble bloodlines if it can be helped. They don't want to antagonize nobility.
Furthermore, Duncan kills Ser Jory in cold blood- implying GW do scummy stuff. So its okay if GW do scummy stuff and if non GW do scummy stuff its bad? You may argue well it's a Blight- well nobody knew but Duncan and Ferelden GW and they kept it a secret (big WTF) They were purposely vague in describing the situation to King Cailan...which made Cailan overconfident, more than his usual laid back personality would. Loghain was right for being serious and wary about the situation. Cailain pissed on every of Loghain's military strategies/counsel- the soldier at Ostagar tells you they have been fighting for weeks, he somewhat mistakenly thinks it's over queen Anora (foreshadowing of Return to Ostagar) But really it's about Cailain rushing the military operation just because he can't get his Orlesian wardens if he waits.
Loghain wants to wait but not for Orlesian reinforcements but instead Fereldian. That's why Cailan rushes the operation since he isn't aware it's a real Blight because Grey Warden bs
Moreover, one of the GW motto is: whatever it takes to win the Blight- Loghain has all the makings of GW, he is both honorable and cutthroat.
The Orlesian wardens were aware of Ferelden and Orlais history and didn't trespass until they were summoned directly Ferelden. They were massively respectful despite the Blight granting them authority to steam roll through Ferelden.
In Return to Ostagar, if your bring Loghain he learns Cailan was actually against Orlais helping (just like him) but still diplomatic towards them. Anora, Loghain's daughter, was the one conspiring with Empress Celene and manipulating Cailan into being pro Orlesian.
If you spare Loghain in both Landsmeet and Archdemon he becomes pivotal in stopping Corypheous and preserving the legacy of the GW. 10 years after the events of the 5th Blight Loghain is a respected Senior Warden and a man wise from his mistakes, he admits his decisions in Fereleden were bad and despite his dislike of being reminded; he still takes all the flak thrown at him even 10 years after the events like a saint. He also becomes friends with Hawke from DA2.
Loghain is arguably the most complex character in the series.
@@amauriherrera6022 very well spoken and I couldn't agree more.
Same here I always chop off his head 🤣
I feel like Morrigan is grooming him for his special quest, hehe
"No? I suppose that explains your loss at ostagar " 😵💫☠️
Loghain surviving the Landsmeet only to die striking the killing blow on the archdemon is a poetic end to a great antagonist. I had no idea he had all this banter though
@Adam Glenen
how bout his other sacrifice in dragon age inquisition?
@@chongwillson972 I've never played a save file where Loghain survives the events of DA:O
it's also a way to reclaim justice. he did save Ferelden, but also almost destroy it as well. Killing the archdemon is a sentence and a way to reclaim his name.
@@chongwillson972 that one’s just funny. “Don’t worry guys i got this” *dies 10 seconds into fighting*
10:36 Thats gotta be the most redeeming thing about Loghain. He treats Dog well.
He was down to let the dog breed with his dog lol
@@Pp_datasianboiI’m down with it 🤷🏻♀️ if my warden goes missing my warden would have Logain take care of my wardens mabari
@@ghostgirl6746 true true
I think my favourite part about Loghain is that he is fully accepts everyone's contempt. He is an aggressive character sure but everyone's hatred of him barely phases him. Except for, and here's what I love, the conversation where weyn accuses him of not caring about the soldiers he lost at Ostagar. The venom he drips in retort to that remark alone makes him one of my favourite characters ever written.
This give you a different view of Loghain. What he did was awful but I guess he's not completely evil, just blinded by war. I never had him as a companion when playing DAO but I just finished a DAI story where he joined the party and Alistair left to become king. He seems to be a better person.
Wait you can keep Alistair from becoming a drunk and keep Logaihn?!
@@johnherrera5261 you can, if you harden Alistair in his personal quest, you can convince him to be a king and stop whining, allowing you to marry him to Anora and keep Loghain.
@@LIONREV7 that's dope had no idea thanks will definitely be trying this out too bad Anora has to live lol
It's really interesting to take Loghain with you on the "Return to Ostagar" DLC and get his reaction when he hears the contents of the letters between Cailan and the Empress of Orlais
@@markpreston8854 yeah I watched that on RUclips. He's real ass. That's said Calin marring Celene may have made sense on paper, but it would have been a political disaster for him in Ferelden.
The one with Zevran and Loghain is too funny
Loghain turns out to be a strangely likeable and even honorable guy if you just give him a chance.
I wanted to spare him in my latest play through but I just couldn't lose Alistair :(
A very interesting character nonetheless!
You can still arrange it where alistair becomes king or even marries. If going through type goodiest ending possible.
@@AL-lh2ht But i don't wanna upset Alistair.
@@shallowmess7981 He does forgive you after the ending
@@LIONREV7 I checked wiki and it says he will kinda accept it only if Loghain kill archdemon and die. If u doing Morrigan ritual Alistair will be still angry.
@@shallowmess7981 It's implied that he still may resent you for the ritual, even if you did kill Loghain..
Personally I like it..
Two friends, almost like brothers, growing apart - he resents you but you still care for him..
"He's king, he's a better man than he was when we first met, and he has Anora -- I can live with that even if it means I earned his ire. "
There are also the banters with Wynn during Return to Ostagar DLC that are very interesting and gives more insights on his decisions to abandon Cailan.
And of course, his little apparition in Awakening if both him and the Warden survived killing the archdaemon, it gives a little more closure to his character and briefly explains why he was sent to the grey wardens of Orlais.
Simon Templeman. Kain from Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen & Soul Reaver. A fantastic voice, wonderful to hear it again.
The story about Loghain and his dog always makes me see him differently. As well as his conversation with Wynne about his men. Great writing. The newer games never make me feel like this
I never knew about the second interaction with the Dog. While I often traded a hardened King Alistair for Logain (it just seemed logical to have the extra warden just in case, and I figured eventually Alistair would forgive me since we were buddies), his interaction with the dog certainly makes me think they were right to tell me my Dog wasn't allowed to do the champion fight.
2:04 emotional damage!
I hate Loghain but the story about his dog both upsets me and infuriates me.
There is a place in literature hell for "dog kickers"
Cailan was going to divorce his daughter, and marry the Empress of Orlais. Orlais. The country that did all that dog kicking, and much more. I cannot blame him for leaving that rat to die.
@@thisisaname5589 Pfft, as if Fereldan didn't commit atrocities for the sake of their war. There are no heroes.
@@katie5998 Of course there are. Your people. My people are heroes. Even if they do bad things that I disagree with, they're still my people and I still want what's best for them, especially against other people. My people produce heroes. Less of them now than before, but still, we do. I don't belong to a fictional nation, so I don't really care about that fictional nation. But in the abstract? You're quite wrong.
@@thisisaname5589 I don't understand what you're trying to say. "Your people" and "my people"? What?
@@katie5998 Probably no point in trying to explain it. There aren't any spelling or grammatical errors there. Your people, my people, anyone's people, we all owe it to ourselves to value our people, especially against other people. In this story, Loghain did exactly that, and Cailan actively betrayed his people. He got what he deserved.
I have over 3k hours in DAO and I never could bring myself to hire Loghain. Not even once to know what its about.
I still feel Duncan death.
I was half expecting Loghain to have the Soul Reaver strapped to his back.
IKR?!?!? I barely remember what he looks like because I'm always picturing Kain saying his lines!
@5:35 " Why are your people here"
Sten: "You know why 🗿"
You give any antagonist a tragic backstory with a dog and theyre automatically 40% redeemed in my eyes
In my first play through all those years ago I beat Loghain and opted to kill him. Then he said his final line to his daughter and it hit my like a freight train. So I reloaded and saved Loghain at the cost of Alister who my warden had romanced and I was quite fond of. But… his words just hit me and ever since Loghain has been my favorite character in the franchise. His story about his dog is just so… painful
Every character who got his pet taken away turns utterly crazy
*Dad doesn't want to get a dog.*
*Gets dog anyway.*
Dad and the dog:
the conversation with Zevran is the best :)
It always bothered me having to choose between SC and Alistair. Sten is right (like often), why waste ressources and kill one of Ferelden's greatest generals, loved by a large part of the nobility and the common people, only to please Alistair ? And at that point, there were only three Grey Wardens remaining in Ferelden ! THREE ! One more against the Archdemon couldn't have hurt. Alistair being like "to be a Grey Warden is an honor, blablabla" is completely beside the point.
The worst part is, if you don't make the right dialogue choices with Alistair at one specific moment of the game, and during the landsmeet questline, then choose SC over Alistair, he ends up being a useless drunk, never to be heard of again... I'm really glad they made it possible ***SPOILER*** for Alistair and Anora to get married after you recruit Loghain, it's really the best way to end the civil war in my opinion, even if it's at the cost of Alistair's friendship.
Bioware really have some strange views about right and wrong sometimes. Like, in Mass Effect 2, ***SPOILER*** the good ending is to destroy the Collectors base, Shepard says stuff like "millions of people died because of this base"
But in the same game, at the end of Mordin's loyalty mission, to keep Maelon's data is the good ending, and when Shepard tells Mordin that Maelon's research was sickening, Mordin says "the Krogan females died for this. Keeping the data gives a meaning to their sacrifice".
The same thing happens in Mass Effect 3. After the mission at the Sanctuary, Hackett himself acknowledges that, for all the horror that happened there, the data that Cerberus have gathered will be invaluable to finish building the Crucible.
So how is destroying the Collectors base the good ending ? I will never get over this.
@@kaidanthecursed3534 Just being near reaper tech induces indoctrination doesn't it? Look at how cerberus turned out in mass effect 3
If he stood by Cailan and gave the orders for his men to not intervene beforehand, I would've believed his words about him loving his men. He is his king's men and family. It's part of his role to die alongside him.
But no, he decided to pussy out and used his men as an excuse. Literally, no honor and credibility. I wouldn't want someone like Loghain to watch my six. Ostagar showed how much of a coward he was.
@@kaidanthecursed3534 super old comment I know but actually the full paragon decision is to destroy the data because Shep says it is wrong to use the data that so many lives paid for. It's a neutral or renegade decision to tell him to save it. It ends up being the correct decision of course, since it decides Eve's fate (she dies if you destroyed the data), but it's consistent- paragons always want to destroy it and grab the high ground morally, even if its not the greatest choice tactically.
I loved this game so much and I’m about to start another game for like the 100th time and I’m glad people are still enjoying this gem to this day
Not going to lie..... that was pretty amazing... thank you for sharing.
Can you believe that the developer back then even wrote such deep lore and character even in their villains? The gaming industry have gone back to the stone age, it doesn't matter how good the equality or the visual graphics looks, if you can't connect to the characters you are just watching slide shows of tech demos.
Love the cutscenes you created for the dialogue. Great stuff!
The dialogue between him and Wynne is the best 👍. I find it amusing everyone says Loghain murdered Cailan but in truth Cailan really did rush to his own demise due to using a bad strategy for that battle against an immensely larger force that would have annihilated everyone even if Loghain did charge. Loghain did many terrible things but he is still one of my my top five favorite characters :)
If that were true why would Duncan go along with it? He was a practical man, if he believed the plan wouldn't work he would have spoken up. Instead, he endorses it and tells Cailan point-blank "The plan will work". Furthermore, Teagan also tells us that he doesn't believe Cailan would have risked his life on a plan that wouldn't work. Cailan would have survived if he had not led from the front, but that does not mean the plan itself was bad from beginning to end.
Loghain was the one who came up with that ‘bad strategy’ since he was the General of Cailan’s army and we see this in game. So yes, he did murder his King and Son in law.
Almost makes you feel bad for Loghain he seemed to really like the dog lol.
Thank you so much for posting this. I had him in my group but none of these happened. The story with his dog was so sad…
The best character in Origins. I always save him. I also love how loyal a warden he became in Inquisition.
Agreed. I love Loghain, so complex and interesting. I actually prefer him to Alistair and didn't feel all that bad about losing him when I recruited Loghain. Also, his voice actor is marvelous.
So he's like John Wick. They killed his dog and then he hunted down his enemies overthrowing his former masters.
I didn't even recognize Liliana, during the first banter, I wondered if the conversation was between Logain and an Orlesian warden in Awakening.
Loghain is not a bad character, on the contrary once you read the book and play the DLC The Wardens Keep you can understand a lot about him and his vision of the Grey Wardens and Orlais (of course the Wardens happened hundreds of years before but it is very referenced in the book as a reason for distrust of the Order). Moreover, there is content cut from Dragon Age Origins that shows that in the beginning there was an option to incorporate him into the party without losing Alistair...there are interactions between them that have been rescued via mods, supposedly it was repressed to give more drama to the Landsmeet and the confrontation between Alistair and Loghain for what happened Ostagar, but the option existed and the idea is that they forgive him and he recognized in our favorite blond a worthy heir of Maric. These interactions and his loyalty to the Grey Wardens confirms that he is a very interesting character, I always play DAO 3 times a year and always in one of them I choose him...I prefer Alistair but I don't fail to see that as a character Loghain is very deep and well built.
Dammit!!! I wish they added that in!!!
I didn’t even know these existed. But then again, I have never EVER let this man live. I’m 100% Alistair as I always romance him too. It’s interesting how decisions like these can make for such differing narratives. I’ve never not had Alistair as king.
And I LOVE Wynne’s grilling of Loghain. And I’m chuckling at the idea of Loghain and Morrigan having to consummate for the god child. 😅
Alistair can still be king even if Loghain lives, but it'd mean he'd be marrying Anora instead and he has to be hardened too.
@@BlazinVoid59 If you romanced him tho, he breaks up with you regardless of whether or not he leaves.
Just watched this, its really well done I enjoyed it, Dragon age is my favourite game series and origins my favourite, it brings me some joy knowing that some of the community for the first game is still alive to this day and still playing the game like I am despite still having a shit laptop with crappy specs, I hade proof of this from the comments I scrolled through.
Wow, the moment between the mabari and Loghain was interesting. A moment of vulnerability from an otherwise very stern character.
You can "hmph" all you like. I swear Leliana is the cutest thing in Dragon Age.
Back when I was playing origins in my early 20s I never would have thought he would be my favourite origins character. I think a huge role in my change of outlook was also Regill from wrath of the righteous. I'm super sold on lawful evil types!
Then again probably being in my late 20s also changed my opinion. Since before I only ever cared about Morrigan, Alistar and Leliana. Now I find my favourites are Wynn, Loghain and Shale :) Such a well written game and characters! ❤
Thanks for that. I never had a chance to listen to his banter with the rest because his head always leaves his shoulders in my playthroughs.
The conversations with the Mabari are some of the most personable. Truly.
I think killing him is a huge waste. He’s a very well written character and has even more depth through the novels. Giving him a chance for redemption feels right to me.
that last banter with the Mabari always put tears in my eyes, even tho i'm not big fan of Loghain,
it truly was a retreat...
I knew there was some mention that humans migrated from the north like the Qunari.
I play this game for many years now,and i always killing Loghain at lands meet,but i tried many playthroughs recently and then tried the option to letting him live and making him a grey warden, funny thing that such difficult character bioware decided to make him escape goat and then at the very end not killing the man but sparing him,great character voice by the great Simon Templeman aka the voice of Kain,long story short its more rewarding to spare him rather than just killing him imho.
1:32 "People aren't sensible creatures all the time." That could be written on Loghain's tombstone.
So... One big reason why Loghain hate Orlesian is because they took his dog and pushed it to death? And then the guy assembled an army and repel them from his country?
John Wick?
oh nice, by the time I recruited Loghain everyone and their mom were dead
welp after that dog dialogue sorry alistair i have to pick loghain now. i understand his hate for the orlesians pigs now. alistair treated my pup horribly. #TEAMLOGHAIN
😂😂😂😂
This would be so much more enjoyable if alistair didn't leave the team!
Loghain is one of my favorite video game characters, I always spare him.
It’s quite rare in a game to be able to become best buddies with the « main » antagonist after defeating him
That last tale of his... suddenly, everything about his hatred for the Orlesians, and the choices that he made in the story, make so much more sense.
It gets worse. (Spoilers ahead for The Stolen Throne book) in the book his mother was raped by Orlesian soldiers which led his father to take young Loghain and flee to the forests after his vengeance where he raised him and they took in Fereldans hiding from Orlais and its abuse, refugees. His father died buying Maric to flee coming soldiers as the camp was destroyed.
As much of a bastard as Loghain is, I like that he has a soft spot for the mabari.
We also share a hatred of Orlesians although I hate them for the silly mask and game and that they are insufferably French
Honestly if it wasn't for the fact Anora gives the pre battle speech if loghain lives I'd have recruited him more often. Sending him against the Fear Demon is so very appropriate. He defends the order he betrayed from the very crimes he accused them of.
Lol Morrigan had a secret crash on Loghain
*giggle-giggle*
I dug the dog interaction!
I play this game for sten. God love him lol
It would be amazing if there was a mod that incorporated these cut scenes into the game somehow. They even have context-appropriate body language in some parts.
The amount of time I watch this is getting unhealthy, but this is so beautifully done! and Simon Templeman's voice...
Logaine did try to stop cailan from doing the ostagar fight.
Was on him.
Logan may have not been a bad person, He had to choose his battles wisely and to be honest, If he did not pull out the forces at Ostagar, I am sure things would have lead to a greater loss.
The dog banter was incredibly enlightening. I can imagine a teenaged Loghain holding the corpse of his emaciated, beloved Mabari and swearing vengeance on those who brought his proud spirit-sister so low.
If only this much thought went into the other dragon age games. A shame really. Thanks for the vids though. Loghain has never survived the landsmeet in my games, and he never will 😂.
I played Origins so many times and I didn't know you could actually recruit herby temporarily Loghain into your party. That's my fault for always playing the same way though!
Funny thing for me is on my first playthrough I recruited him straight away...
Loghain’s story about his dog. 😢
Love Dragon Age and like these sort of videos 👍
Just recently found your channel and I'm enjoying it
Glad you like it 😁
Loghain's dog's story is saddening to hear.
Loghain is such a good antagonist because he’s right, king cailan was an idiot who died doing stupid idiot shit
Why is it that his deal with a Tevinter slaver is not as bad as him retreating at ostagar? I can forgive ostagar I can't forgive the deal with a slaver of elves.
...so you also forgive him pinning the blame on the Grey Wardens?
@@teoadventures2564 nah but human trafficking and selling elves to slavery is objectively far worse than blaming...
It isn't brought up as the Elves thing, as most of the other issues in Denerim, were Howe's fault. Howe organized and arranged everything, just like with the hiring of Zevran. Logain either just signed to let it happen, if he even knew about it before it was happening. Logain is a good leader though and takes responsibility for the actions done by his subordinates. Saying he might have done it anyway as the alienate was is a weak part of the city. You see he was right about this during the final battle in denerim
It's so weird, people's priorities are so weird. Literally thousands upon thousands died in ostagar, the retreat allowed for many villages to get pillaged, it's men killed and it's women taken to be made into monsters, and somehow selling people to buy an army to end the darkspawn threat worse?
@Ethan Schultz There was no reason to retreat from Ostagar at all, they were winning several battles against the darkspawn I hardly find him redeeming but killing him or sacrificing himself makes no difference to me as long as he's dead.
Loghain is not a bad egg, as a companion, he showed a lot of traits of redemption....especially when he survived the blight
Me:" Loghain tries to kill me" I sleep
Me:"Loghain in Grey Warden uniform" TAKE IT OFF RIGHT NOW OR I WILL TAKE IT OFF BY MYSELF WITG YOUR SKIN IN IT.
It's weird hearing Kain speak so casually.
I honestly still don't understand what about Loghain is redeemable, but eh.
I would sacrifice 2 King Cailans if it meant utter destruction of Orlais.
If it wasn't for Orlais we wouldn't have Lelliana and all the sexy French accents in Inquisition
Sad story about Adala dog😥
Dificil no reconocer a Simon,excelente actor de voz❤
They took his dog?
Derr Ka Derr
I'd have loved to see the Guardian respond to Loghain.
I actually always conscript Loghain because he is bad and self corrupted from his hatred of Orleisians, I thought recruiting him then making him be a Warden to begin the process of slowly redeeming himself.
Even if none thank him or remember him for the good he's done as a Warden, remembering him as the traitor General, a regicide and a murderer of basically his son, since he basically regarded Cailan as a son.
I wish there was a way to have Alistair and logaine. Like if his friendship meter was high enough or something…
My boi loghain getting his screen time today
He will never escape death at my hands.
But at least he's good with the dog. So you get one point Loghain
2:04 That burn tho
My favourite outcome is always hardening Alistair's resolve so he'll marry Anora, and then recruiting Loghain and making Kieran the Warden's son so that Loghain, Alistair and the Warden all survive to Inquisition, at which point Loghain sacrifices himself to save a Ferelden Refugee who was forced to leave his home because of Loghain's actions at Ostagar.
Loghain sure had his moments, though in-character I would not always welcome him.