#10MinuteTalk
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2023
- A curious observation leads to multiple hypotheses and an interesting discussion on small rifle primer use in intermediate cartridges like the .308 Winchester and 6.5 Creedmoor. Could there be an advantage to bucking the trend and using small rifle primers? Mark Boardman, Ryan Muckenhirn, and Jimmy Hamilton pontificate primers and come up with a test for their hypothesis.
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You absolutely are the modern day fireside chat! I play RUclips videos on rifle cartridges to kill me to sleep when I nap. Your content is great for that!
lol! …you too?
Small primer pockets supposedly last longer the large pockets for reloading. They don't shoot loose as quickly...that what I heard.
Thats true 💪
adding to this the small primer arger cases have more meat in the case head allowing better pressure resistance, this gives the brass primer pocket extra life and/or able to handle higher pressures allowing for more preformance from the round.
To really prove the point either way on the small primer. I would suggest using a slower powder and lower temperature. Say RL26 in the 6.5 CM. 4350 is an excellent powder but also extremely consistent and not as large/slow as RL26 which is probably about the slowest usable in that case size. It is also magic in the 6.5 Creedmoor. Maybe just add that test to your others to see if it will induce a failure or hang fire.
I'm excited to see your results either way.
I can see the weather machine at Vortex just being an old freezer someone dumped in the basement
🤣🤣🤣
How perfectly timed! I was just looking into this very topic in regards to my 6.5 Creedmoor and 45 Auto. I've always preferred large primers wherever applicable, but have never done cross comparisons
I was always told small primers gave lower SDs and that the small primer cases handled higher pressures better and kept the primer pockets tighter, longer. But I was also told they were for the competition crowd only and that large primers gave better ignition with a wider variety of powders under a wider range of conditions. 100 percent anecdotal as far as I know
The 6.5 I can get my head around, the 45 ACP has always irritated me, sorting brass do you don't jam up the Dillon trying to stuff a large primer in a small primer pocket...
Now I need to buy some 6.5 Creed SPP brass from a premium manufacturer. I run the CCI 41 in my wife's 6.5x47 Lap, 143 ELD-X, stupid accurate, never have had ignition issues in West SD Deer weather with 38.8gr of H4350. Dang, the ideas I get from you guys.....always costs me money ;-)
I can almost guarantee the small primers will be fine. I’ve been using the cci 450 in Lapua brass for my 6.5 creed and they’ve been flawless in all temps with H4350. I did drill the flash holes to avoid having to get small deprimer pins.😳 Can’t wait to see your results.
These guys crack me up. Appreciate the show. Good episode 🤜🏼🤛🏼
I live in a warm region of the US and got into reloading post pandemic. Just out of lack of access to LRP, I ended up prioritizing my brass to SRP only.
In 2018, I bought some boxes of Hornady ammo for 6.5 CM. It happened to have small primers. I squirreled the cases away until 2020 when primers dried up and I had twice as many small primers as large in my stockpile. Starline makes SRP brass for 308 Winchester.
I did a little testing with a 7.62x39 in which I had a couple dozen cases with SR primers, and the rest which were Large rifle!
My pet load would shoot markedly better with Small Rifle primers even with my Pet load for my gun. Not saying it's always the case! But in my small test, it clearly did improve accuracy!
With srp you'll need to keep a full case of powder in cold weather based on Johnny's Reloading Bench testing. Guess it helps build pressure.
You should also note the size of the flash hole of the brass used. It adds another variable and removes ability to compare velocity, but it would be interesting to add another SRP brass with a different flash hole size to see if cold weather ignition is more/less evident.
I could listen to Ryan muckenhirn talk all day
Great video, and I learned some stuff. I'd love a 10-min talk on the 257 WSSM or 243 WSSM. Any chance of that happening?
REMEMBER that small primer brass most likely will have small ignition hole. Make sure you check your decaping die.
I Have a theory for you guys. It could possibly cause lower pressures by running small rifle primers, allowing the use of a faster burning powder possibly and getting higher velocities. It would be nice if you could measure the pressures using each small and large rifle primers.
The real reason is D. Small primer pockets last longer before you get loose primer pockets and need to trash your brass. You can get 20-30+ firings out of quality Lapua/Alpa SRP brass. You wont split necks if you anneal so primer pockets is actually the first thing to go. Everything else is secondary.
From my experience in 6.5 creed the srp brass lasts about twice as long so it's great for reloading. I have brass from factory federal ammo that has been fired a dozen or more times and still kicking. My experience is only with cci 450 & 41's. Only downside is ball powders burn a little dirtier with srp, but no ill effects besides darker cleaning patches. Extruded like 4064, 4350, N555, etc.. all work good and hit pretty much same poi as lrp at 100yd. In my opinion both do just fine and I'm glad this topic is getting covered by you guys. Cheers from Livingston MT
Looking forward to it. I'm just getting into the whole reloading thing. I know it's going to open a whole new door of something to chase.
Looking forward to see the results. I’ve been thinking about going this route to solve my lack of LRP issue. Stacked on SRP.
Mark, you never fail to impress me, "they" definitely can control the weather.
Have you heard of Hammer Bullets? Steve at Hammer Bullets is very accessible and would make for a great 10 minute talk on the Hammer.
Really interesting talk, because I was just doing this experiment myself, without the weather portion. I'm primarily looking to use the small rifle primer brass for my .308 subsonics. I think it may actually help with consistency for igniting my pistol powder loads made for this purpose. I have 100 starline .308 sm. primer brass on the way, so I'm going to be interested to see what you find also.
.308 Lapua perhaps?
Cool to see such a nerdy topic on the 10 minutes. Sorry to complicate things (😁 or not) , but I would assume that different powders will react differently to the change of primer size
As would different cartridge cases with different powder capacities and geometry.
@@marksmith4627 sure thing. But given that they fixed the case, taking a fast and slow powder suitable for the cartridge might be interesting.
And yes there are so many parameters that this is more a fun experiment rather than a comprehensive assessment
You fellas ever do a show about the 7mm Remington Magnum?
I would live to see a 7mm Rem Mag cartridge talk! Ryan can do it, may be painful, but i know he can do it!
I know he’s not a fan, but I would LOVE to hear a 10 minute talk on the 7REM MAG!!!!
7mm-08
7x57 Mauser
.284 WInchester
.280 A.I.
7mm PRC
7mm SAUM
28 Nosler
7mm Rem Ultra Mag
7mm Weatherby Mag
There's just so much crammed into the space that does very similar things.
I think ES and SD comparison is moot unless each load is developed with that particular primer. A change doesn’t matter if it is out of tune as we know any given primer can give great or terrible numbers depending on optimization of tune.
Welcome to the new guy Jim ;) Great one guys
For a moment it felt like I was at the school pantomime. Great chat as always
I’m incredibly excited to know these results! I can envision so many applications. Several important questions for the podcast members or anyone, I’m assuming the diameter of the small primer case is different than the large primer case? How about primer case depth, is it different in any way? Has anyone seen specific data on how much powder can be ignited by each primer type within a given amount of time? The flash time or relative “quickness” of the flash may have a similar effect in relation to accuracy just as different trigger types have proven. In some shooters any significant delay can dramatically effect their ability that avoid a reactionary change in how the barrel is aligned, such as a flinch may.
I have a .308 and am currently using Lapua brass with small primer pockets. As a test I chucked some ammo in the freezer overnight and shot them as cold as I could get them. No misfires and a similar ES and SD as the load normally gives.
Oh I like the way you gentlemen think. Really going to enjoy this Mad Scientist episode!
Off topic, but recently the program director at Infowars/Alex Jones Show was wearing a Vortex T-shirt. You guys have made it. Nkt that I ever listen to AJ, LOL.
On topic, I just realized this small rifle primers in 308 Winchester from the Graf & Sons site. Thanks for the info.
Have a buddy that runs a 6.5 creedmoor in a Remington 700 action with a MPA barrel. He just switched over to petersen's small primer brass. And was piercing primers left and right. Turns out he had to machine firing pin and put a bushing in the bolt. The initial testing went great then loaded a couple hundred rounds for the kerstetter memorial match in Eastern Washington. He made it through a couple stages before failures but after that piercing primers became pretty consistent every few rounds. I'm not saying the match environment out in the mud and the rain and the wind did not play a part. But after installed the bushing and machine to the pin haven't had a failure since. The karstetter memorial match is brutal.
Need some more cartridge talks guys!
Agree, I love these
Did this test last year.. Due to not being able to find the Gold Box. GM215M. I'm down to my last 200. And really don't want to use them.
So I tested With, ALL Small Primers that I have. Pretty much all the main best primers we as reloaders use.
I'm excited to see what your data shows compared to mine.
I also used 6.5CM
I can not wait to see the follow up. Are there any Long Action cartridges with SPP's? I would love to see them on a long powder column,
They are now about 40% cheaper to go with small.
What is the timeframe for this test? I've been using CCI #41's in Peterson Small Rifle Primer 6.5 Creedmoor brass for a few years and love it!
Also, there are theories around with how the poweder is laying in the cartridge when fired. are you going to try to add consistency around that? aka, keeping them on end right until they are fired?
I have been shooting the 6.5 x 47 Lapua for years no problem in any weather condition. Now I switched to Peterson brass 6.5 Creedmoor small rifle primers Brass and that made my velocities jump 50 ft./s. I think it works better.
You listened to the ppl. The three amigos are finally reunited 😂
Blazer ammo in some rounds use small pistol primers, and the box does say so
I just had this thought today and started looking into it for my Howa 22-250. I have plenty of SRPs for 223 bench and bulk reloads, but all my LRPs are reserved for 7.5 Swiss and 25-35 Savage. I'm hoping more comes of this. Id love to shoot more 22-250 but the dang LRPs are unicorns still. The people demand more info!
I tried this in 308 years back. I did not have a chronograph back then and never tried again, but with the srp palma brass the poi was low right compared to my normal load in lrp lapua brass. With the brass you are testing is the flash hole also small in the srp brass?
I have loaded both LR and SR .308 Win. I never really noticed much of a difference until I got into the warmer (hotter) loads. I had case head expansion comparable to standard pressure loads while being over the SAAMI max. I would never advocate loading this hot, but it did work for me in my Desert Tech SRS A1 308. The hot load, while quite accurate and consistent in that rifle is not my go-to load. It was simply an experiment I tried that did reduce case head expansion in hot loads for me. Load safe people! By the way, my go-to load is a boring 175gr at 2650 fps or so.
So which one did you use?
@@anonymousf454 I loaded both Lapua, one Palma, one standard match. I stopped load development when casehead expansion was excessive. The small primer pockets held up a lot longer. I really do not recommend doing that for anyone else. It was an experiment I wanted to do is all.
I bought my first 6.5 Creedmoor in 2019. Bought 100 rounds of federal 140g whitetail ammo. It had SRP. Im on my 8th reloading on that brass and ive had some very hot loads while development. Ive got 100 cases of peterson brass with LRP pockets, and 100 hornady LRP brass.
In my rifles, 2x TC Compass and a Howa 1500 the SMP brass will cross over the pressure threshold before the LRP. Thats been consistant with CCI 400, 450, Rem SRP, Wolf SRP versus, CCI 200, 250, 34, and Fed 215.
To add....powders used have been h4350, imr 4350, SB 6.5, Alliant 2000, RL16
17:18 great quote!
What about small rifle magnum primers? How would those compare to large/small rifle primers? Would they perform like a large rifle primer? Larger hotter spark. You could really go down the rabbit hole.
Could 6.8x51 and the army's need for new ammo be the LRP availability issue?
I also wonder, if you have this rifle brass that uses the small primer, can it then be cut out to size up to a large primer pocket size later?
Will you also chill the rifle to help maintain temp of the cartridge?
When reloading Is it safe to use a Large Rifle Magnun primer on a 30 06 with the H4350 powder, can't find any Large Rifle primers? Large.Thank you for you content.
Are you going to keep the rifle and ammo at the same temps to simulate a full hunt at those different temps? Would running room temp ammo and primers through the cold temp guns yield different results-i.e. simulating keeping ammo in an inside coat pocket in a late season cold weather hunt-and would that be beneficial? Great test to answer a lot hearsay hunting anecdotes.👍🏼 Great job guys!
After you do this test, I'd be interested in seeing large rifle vs large rifle magnum primers in a 300wsm. I run large rifle primers in my 300wsm handloads with no issue but have wondered if differences might become evident in extreme conditions.
In both my 7 wsm and 300 wsm, shot back to back with large rifle and large magnum primers the large rifle shot a ton better. Groups went from 3 inch to half inch instantly. The magnums did shoot about 50 fps faster.
Happy shooting indeed. Johnny’s reloading bench has a hang fire series and some temp testing. It’s been really informative if you’re interested in that kind of stuff. Idk why they can’t produce lrp it seems a little ridiculous at this point not to be back in stock everywhere. I’m sure there’s a reason but eventually supply should catch up with demand. 🤷🏽♂️
I'm listening on the victrola while "mother" knits a sweater.
I had the same thought when I heard about the "cold weather" issue.
I'm like "I don't know much, but I know that Lapua uses them and they're not exactly in the tropics"
Holy JayZus! Did yer bois toke up? They're DEAD on coming back with questions
I request you try the loads at -40C/F
It matters.
I have PPU 6.5 Grendel with large & small pockets. I have Norma 7.62x39; same case size, that also use both sizes
Have you thought about talking with the guys at the Hornady podcast about this sort of thing and getting them on or going onto their pod cast.
Is there a follow up episode?
The Mitch Hedberg reference 👍
You guy's should have partnered with Hornady for this episode or did you part ways after the Bullet-Cam🤣
I tried to make the switch in .308. My favorite load is 42.5 gr IMR 4064 using Fiocci LR primers pushing 175 SMK’s out of Federal cases. I switch to Peterson small primer pocket brass using CCI SR primers using the same load. I lost 100 fps. I attribute that all to case volume. The next problem I ran into was slight primer cratering. That was well below max charge for my powder. I did manage to get back to my preferred velocity of 2640 from my 26” 1:12 twist barrel with single digit SD’s. I’m away from my log book and can’t remember the charge weight needed. Oh and as a side note. I had to machine my primer pin on my reloading die.
Very interested in the results of this test. Would also like to see Magnum priners of each type used as well as normal small and large. Im thinking magnum small rifle will burn closest to the large rifle primers.
Wow, now this is an amazing idea!
What about priming tools. Is there a need for specialized tooling for small rifle primers in 308.
If the amount of priming compound is the same in SR and LR, there should be no difference in primer strength. I like the hypothesis that SR strengthens the case with other things equal. One thing is clear that the use of small primers in large rifle and pistol brass is a modern tendency., there were no such things 20 years ago.
I load both with same load and no diff from small to large. I was so surprised. I could only get srp so I changed my brass.
The big difference is the strength of the primer pocket in the brass ,with small rifle primer brass i can shoot hot loads all day long without the new primer fall out when i reload, with large rifle primer the brass is toast after 3-5 hot loads ..in 6,5creed i use small rifle primer, cci450 magnum
Fellas, #meatball idea. Taking care of your ammo. Storage, maintenance (rust prevention).. thanks!
I was hoping for the results now. 🤪
I will check back next Bat time.
What ive come to understand is ball powders are slightly harder to ignite than extruded powders, and have been told to stick to small rifle magnum primers in the lapua small primer 6.5 creed brass when using ball powders. I just bought a bunch of cci 450s and use them regardless of powder. I have seen the SRP brass get better ES and SD than large, howber the large primer brass is hornady and the small is lapua which isnt exactly a fair comparison
I am wondering about using LR primers in my 7 REM Mag and how much my ballistics will differ from my standard load with LRM primers. Does anyone have experience with this?
Y’all are funny. WI and MI being baked?
Our mid Atlantic (southern) summers don’t get over 100. This year it’s constantly over 100.
The 454 uses small rifle primers. So the other pistol cartridges should be able if they had small rifle pockets.
🕵️♂️ If Your Going To Talk About Primers, Would You Please Address The Best Primer Seating Depth and Best Primer Crush? I am curious as to what you've found to works best for accuracy and in relation to different powders being used at different ambient hunting/shooting temperatures??? 🤔
What will make the most difference is the power column stays square in the cartridge. And does not fall down on the angle or forward.
Since large rifle primers are so scarce these days, i will be looking for small primer 308 brass.
Just an FYI..and I was Fire Chief and State Certified Fire Safety Inspector.i myself could care less but states and municipalities have laws on how many primers can you can possess in a residential dwelling....it won't let me post my information from clip board,but most are 10,000 primers..just an FYI for all those posting pictures on the net of what you have,not now but I'm sure in near future they will start cracking down... 😡
I have been using federal brass in 6.5 creedmoor since i got mine. Small primer brass is perfect for the creed. Its not that big of a cartridge. CCI LRM is my go to.
Please 10 min talk on the .35 Rem!
That is my primary rifle, 6x47 Lapua ❤it ( use varget)
Two iconic movie references. Way to go jim
Reminds me of when Federal had started a run of 45 ACP ammo using a small pistol primer instead of the standard large pistol primer…. I don’t know when for sure this originally happened, but I recall in 2012 when it happened, and oh my goodness, the level of older folks in the reloading community that lost their collective sh** when that happened 😆😆
And then I ask, are there small magnum rifle primers and do they make a difference?
As I understand it 6.5 creed tends to use small primers because large primers have a higher tendency to blow out at the upper end of loadings.
Where can I get that Speed Goat t-shirt!?!
On the next episode of 10 minute talk, the 340 weatherby magnum
Having just done this... cci400 seem to perforate, the old hands recomended 450's as they have a thicker cup... problem solved. No difference noted between mv between large and small (400 and 450)
Primers have got to come back on the shelves !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the fact after 3 years AFTER KungFlu, Primers would be on shelves again but the fact we still cannot find primers is ridiculous !!!!!Especially since all the manufacturers have said the ramped production and have expanded their operations !!!!!!
I think that depends more on where you are in the country. In my area there are tons of primers available except for large rifle.
I did see large rifle primers in 2 stores over the past few weeks
Availability is there, prices are ridiculously high.
@@MrXDN availability is not there. i go to almost every store that will carry primers and no one has them. big city problems. may be better in small towns but the city still has shortages
Does any factory ammo have small rifle primers?
Yes you are exposing something.
There are some tweaking you need to do. Dam it. There goes my small primer
Just remember you can up the case pressure with small rifle primers
You should test h1000
Don't Forget "Primer Seating Depth" for Accuracy! 😜
The plateau has been reached with technology as far as I'm concerned. All these new cartridges are along the lines of marketing...hence 6mm Rem and the 243 Win. Something is trying to be sold here.
High peed camera for ignition times?
I love alpha and there .080 flashhole
I'm super curious how this turn out. Bet there's not huge difference tho
Youvwill want to check case volume. Unequal volumes will change the results.
No tin foil hat required. The Gubment can without a doubt control the weather. See: Lahayna, Maui.