NARCISSISTIC VS BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER: ORIGINS AND WHY IT MATTERS
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2020
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NPD and BPD definitely share overlapping traits and dynamics, however, the origins of Narcissistic Personality Disorder vs Borderline Personality Disorder are often different, especially in terms of childhood and attachment.
While the personality disorders can overlap and vary, the way we deal with someone who has NPD vs BPD can be different in some areas, especially in terms of what we can expect from them, how we set boundaries, etc.
This video explores NPD and BPD from an Attachment lens, and explores the similarities and differences, and why it can make a difference to understand the disorders and traits of BPD and NPD for those of us who have them in our lives.
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I have a theory that BPD could be characterized as having severely dysregulated empathy. I have seen my BPD parent display a tremendous amount of empathy for other people, consistently over a long period of time and in a variety of situations. But when something triggers the storm inside them that empathy completely disappears and is replaced by rage. I think maybe rage can even feel like a twisted form of justice to them: “I bend over backward to take such good care of you and this is how you treat me? I’ll show you…” and then they launch into rage and abuse. And then when their empathy returns they feel so terrible for having hurt the other person that they cannot cope with the truth and turn to denial or blacking it out from their memory. So the child experiences this horrible mix of empathy, rage, abuse, invalidation and gaslighting.
Agree with the rage, empathy disappears thing but you know they really don't have cognitive empathy, it's affective, but they have no idea what you are going through and they don't really care. The only thing they care about is how your misery, because of them, affects them. And they will abandon you in a minute. No loyalty. And yes, vengeful. They are 2 year olds.
I appreciate this comment so much! as someone who is bpd traited and on the quiet bpd spectrum even though thats not in the DSM5. I look fine on the outside but inside it WAS like a war. i have done years of intense therapy and still have many more to go but I am determined to not only heal but prove we can change and reparent ourselves while unlearning toxic harmful behavioral patterns
DSM-5 is outdated. While it's still helpful, cluster B is one giant soup with too much comorbidity to label disorders as black and white. Kernberg's model of a "borderline organization" is more helpful, as in it describes the disorders as multi-dimensional which is what we actually see in reality: a borderline core with certain expressions of it (NPD, HPD, ASPD, etc).
Ouch, this sounds so much like how I see my mother.
As a person with BPD, I do not experience rage. I wish people didn't generalize these disorders so much. They exist on a specctrum and everyone is different.
The biggest commonality between the two that I found, was the apparent expression of the cycle of abuse. It took me a while to figure this out... originally thinking that the BPD partner was NPD, but the push-pull cycle of the BPD appears at first like the hoover-devalue-discard cycle of the Narcissist. Around and around, positive and negative ad nauseam. The underlying difference is that the NPD abuse tends toward those actions being malicious for personal gain, while the BPD cycle is a struggle to stabilize their perception of you, and the distorted threat that that poses to them. Really different causes, but superficially, the "cycles" seem the same because, well... they are cycles.
Interesting statement it make sense.
thank you... your comment was very helpful.
Cluster B is just one giant soup.
This was a great explanation Dr. Sage. My mom cycled between the two conditions and also had a few psychotic breaks in there as well. The way we experienced her was either out of control emotionally or checked out emotionally behind closed doors. In public, she used us like props to demonstrate what a good mother she was. But she wasn’t and I did not figure this out until I had my own children. I grew up not knowing what was real and not knowing anything about who I was and what I wanted because we were trained just to manage her emotions and nothing at all about ourselves which were always secondary and not important.
Thank you for sharing your story. I wish you the best on this healing journey 🙏💜
@Hazel_Basil Thank you Hazel. I am always moved when someone’s experience was similar to mine because it is validating - and you know we received absolutely no validation at all from our mothers. I am truly sorry for your pain which I know very well, but as you say, you are not alone.
Wow, I'm not the only one! Props to you for recognizing and for raising your generation of children in a better way.
My mother is extremely similar to what you are describing! I’m no contract now thank God, i tried to set healthy boundaries (no name-calling/screaming, therapy sessions) and she wouldn’t respect them or show up.
She has the classic BPD symptoms of going 0 to 100 with all of her emotions and blacking out/ dissociating and not remembering the terrible things she said or did… But she also seems to have an extremely avoidant attachment style, never calling me or checking in on me when we were in different places geographically and i was a child, but blaming me for not reaching out to her, accusing me of neglecting her, even tho i was the child. Growing up i was always the last kid to get picked up from the after school program/child care, with teachers often having to call her to check if she was coming at all. And i was left home alone a lot. But when i was with her she would claim i was her best friend and we were the closest, and she would often share inappropriate (adult) things about her life.
She never seemed to have any fear of abandonment and was very frequently putting me in situations where i was alone and felt very abandoned.
But the one time we had a mediation (she didn’t like my boyfriend and suggested “we need mediation then” in a super petulant voice, but then couldn’t hide her shock when i found a free mediation service and had scheduled us for one.) Then, during the mediation, as soon as it became clear she had been behaving in an emotionally abusive way, she changed her narrative to “i feel so unsupported by my daughter that I’m suicidal” effectively ending the mediation bc then the mediators kicked me out and began handling the meeting as a Suicide intervention instead, and of course the mediation never was rescheduled and that was that.
I’m wishing luck and inspiration and self-love to all the other people who’ve had to deal with abusive parents. It’s REALLY not fun! I’m trying to change, and stop hating myself for not being able to fix/rescue her or protect myself enough to handle the abuse.
@@sidonieharper-mcpike4354 So sorry that you have had no real mothering in your life. My mother’s flavor of abuse was slightly different than yours but nevertheless, it is hard to grow up alone. Know that you are not alone and that I understand how you feel. I have forgiven myself and seriously don’t even understand why I was holding myself responsible but that’s the way we were programmed BY DESIGN. That helped me understand and move on.
My mom was diagblnosed as NPD by one psychiatrist, BPD by another.. Another diagnosed NPD w/ BPD features, the 4th BPD w/ NPD features. I agree with the last two.
The conditions can overlap, but they are very different.
I am a retired social worker and I love your channel. Thank you
Thank you so much for saying that! I truly appreciate you and your time and hope I can continue to be helpful. Please take good care, and I hope you are enjoying your retirement:)!!
As someone who's in remission for BPD I LOVE that youre making this!! They ARE different. And you sometimes do need to cut a BPD person lose. But theres hope. You have to look at whether the person working on themselves and getting better ❤❤❤
Good for you for doing the hard work hun. I'm thinking of making DBT charm bracelets.
DBT is about learning skills to help you with your emotions and your relationships and when you feel like you have mastered a new skill, you do a quiz on it and then you'll be sent a new charm with the name of the skill eg TIPP or DEARMAN that you put on your bracelet.
I want people to be able to feel more confident in themselves because they can SEE how much work they have done, and so can their friends and family.
It would also be great because when you're having some big feelings you may have trouble remembering what the skills are and that you should use them in the first place.
But you will be able to feel the bracelet, see it moving and hear it jingle.
If anyone who has real problems with gesturing at people when they are angry, then they could add on a cat bell to alert them.
It would be hard for me not to laugh at this, and it's hard to stay angry when you're laughing at something silly.
BPD: Hurt themselves, blame themselves, doesn't know how to get love.
NPD: Hurt others, blame others, demands love
BPD+NPD: Hurt both, blames others
BPD+AvPD: Hurt themselves, blames themselves, removes themselves/runs from situations, doesn't engage, lacks assertiveness
thank you for sharing!🙏🏻💕
Bpd also hurts others.
If it's no with consistent lying it's with the constant rejection and lashing out.
Borderlines hurt others too.
@@kk8490 Yes, they do. My friend is Borderline, and will have times that she will try to hurt me by spreading rumors and accusing me of things I haven’t done and know nothing about.
@@lindseysanders3656
That's a narcissistic trait, not a borderline trait.
A Borderline wouldn't seek revenge by trying to destroy someone's reputation.
A Narcissist would.
This was soooo helpful! I've been trying to discern the diff between these 2 disorders for months...& finally today while I listened to you for the 1st time the light bulb went on! WOW, I'm NOT going crazy! I feel such relief! Thank you, Dr. Sage! I just subscribed! 💟
My twin sister is NPD. I went no contact on her and my narc family in 2006 so I could live a healthier way of life. I feel like I am BPD healing my narcissistic & codependent tendencies and I am a lot more at peace. I feel happier! 😅 I don't rage like I used to. Been focused on my purpose- driven vocational work , which has been very healing.
Thank You Kim. You are very pleasant, kind and informative.
It's the first time I hear such a good explanation on the difference between BPD and NPD! Thanks Dr Kim! ❤
Seriously, there was a super-subtle thread of thought that she maintained during the last 2 minutes there, that was sublime. I now see my situation clearly. She is BPD at the core, and with certain NPD qualities, meaning she maybe does have a soul after all. I don't know. Goodnight all, very thoughtful video.
NPDs do have a soul too
Doctor, out of months of researching, you have been the absolute best in making things clear and complete yet concise!!! Woooooooow am I glad I finally know how to separate NPD from BPD and now know how to better navigate it. Thanks doctor!!!
Dr.Sage, just starting watching your site a few days ago, and you do a wonderful job in your communication and explanation of the various topics you cover. I enjoyed todays topic because i have been in a couple relationships with BPD ladies, but was confused if they were BPD or NPD or a combination of both. Your explanation was very helpful in understanding how they overlap, and what the differences are between both of these disorders.Thank you for your time and dedication in presenting these videos. I look forward to future topics/videos.
Wow this was extremely well explained thank you!!!
best and clearest video on the subject bar none 🙌🏼
This is by far the best, most informative and clear video i have come across about the differences between npd and BPD, thankyou 🙏💕
Great content Kim, really enjoying your channel. Thanks very much!
Thank you so much!!:)
Hi there, therapist here. I think you do an amazing job of clearly explaining mental health issues. I think you do an especially good job of explaining how you can have compassion yet not subject yourself to terrible behavior, particularly in dealing with BPD and narcissism.
Raised with a boarderline mother & married a npd-took me years but I’m ok with me now & completely agree, similarities between the two, but the core of “why they do what they do” is different.
Both definitely operate with unhealthy methods regardless of what motivates them.
The video does a good job of explaining what I’ve noticed.
Did it take you ,long to realise he was disturbed?
@@scarred10 it did-because of my upbringing I thought something was wrong with me rather than “these are not my people” -so after 18 married yrs of being a human pretzel and pushed to the brink of depression-i began to think “what if there’s nothing wrong with me?”
And then it took 2 more years of learning what is normal in a person/not normal regarding care and empathy and realized he was a covert narc.
So whew-after all that-now I’m trained/Healed/love myself & life and have people in my life that are “my people”❤️❤️❤️
Thank you! You may not realize but this video is extremely helpful to me and I am sure to others as well. I very much appreciate your help.
Thank you for this explanation. This has helped me understand myself much more. Of course, since I am the one damaging others due to my BPD and possibly more (also an addict in recovery from alcoholism for 23 years, but still struggling with addictive behaviors and chronic pain issues). Now at age 65, I realize it is much too late for me. However, I can refuse to inflict myself upon others, which is the only truly responsible course of action for me. Fortunately, I also value my solitude when I can get it. So that will have to be my saving grace. 🙏🏼 I appreciate the work you are doing on here.
I don't think it's ever too late. Getting help is always possible, you can always improve no matter your age!
Oh my gosh soooooooo helpful, seriously....this video was very informative I appreciate ur time it it took to make this and I thank u. U broke things down in a way I could understand. I look forward to more of ur videos. Thank you again 💓 💖 💗
Thank you so much!! So glad it was helpful!!
I feel as though I have been divinely guided to you Dr. Sage. Understanding my childhood has been difficult, but you explained exactly what both my parents have dealt with all their lives. My mother the NPD and my father the BPD both not diagnosed, nor would they except a diagnosis. I was diagnosed with ADHD nine years ago and I have been in search of my mental health lineage ever since. I feel a sense of relief having a name to put with the actions they exhibited as I was growing up and continue to as an adult. I'm an empathic survivor (former NPD in training) and I'm always in search of a better me. Thank you for posting this, it took me two years to find you and I'm so glad I did.
I think You may be CPTSD. We can have narcissistic behaviour but we are not NPD. There's video on You Tube made by another psychologist that talks about it.
Thanks so much! Very clear and concise.
BPD is a bit like emotional narcissism, in my experience. It’s like they don’t realise that other people also experience (particularly negative) emotions and in that way they also lack empathy (by definition)
they know and can empathize when in a normal state, it's just when they're triggered they lose it because they feel everything more intensely and the trigger becomes all consuming. Then comes the shame which even though there is regret is also consuming and so they can also make it again more about themselves as opposed to be able to really take responsibility in a healthy way.
With bpd it just depends on the person ultimately, self aware they are and how commited to their healing.
My BPD partner is also NP and at times psychopathic. Whatever the diagnosis these people will kill you.
May I ask you why do you still have that partner?
Brilliant ,my son took his own life at 32 we both had bpd and substance abuse . it's like losing myself this really helped me understand i was too ill to make a better job of being a mum but I am so sad I loved my son so much . I am estranged from my daughter for over 3 years now and I can't cope with oldest son 's Npd partner . All I can do is live my best life alone and show that there can be some recovery and to be a witness albeit from a distance to their lives .. I am not to blame for all of this chaos and tragedy just some of it.I am nearly 19 years sober.
Great explanation!!!
So helpful thank you!! Rigid - chaotic 🎉
Very helpful. I have always thought my mother-in-law was narcissistic. But after watching this, she is borderline with narcissistic traits. Sadly, she works in psychiatry and is screwing over her patients everyday and brags like she is their savior But she is tearing families apart By over identifying with the borderline child in the family. It's super creepy and she appears oblivious to how sick she is. I have had to cut off all contact with her for her constant manipulation, Horrible lies about everyone that loves her, and complete disrespect of any boundaries. Everyone is so scared of her because of her backlash when you defend yourself to her that they choose to enable her. but not me!
The way I understand it now after listening to this video is that someone who has Borderline Personality Disorder could succeed in marriage if they postpone marrying until they have more resources to make it work while someone with Narcissistic PErsonality Disorder while having more resources to make a marriage work would only see that as being more of an opportunity to give into their growing list of addictions and while someone with extreme Borderline PErsonality Disorder unless they start getting treatment when very young after they got properly diagnosed is probable not ever going to succeed at marriage.
I LOVE the way you describe both BPD and NPD. I have BPD and so does my mom, and it's very moving to me how much compassion and empathy you bring to our experience. And as someone who loves humanity and always tries to see the good in people (even to my own detriment), I also appreciate how you speak about people with NPD. The discourse around people with this disorder or these traits are SO vilified (which honestly is completely understandable), but you leave a little window of hope in the discourse that allows us to understand where those behaviors and that psychology is coming from and therefore ways to bring light to it and for people to get better. I dunno, just listening to you describe all of this makes me feel hopeful. Thank you so much for the work you're doing.
i appreciate the understanding of both. i don't appreciate the statement about people not being able to change. anybody who wants to change and works toward change can change.
I feel with the experience of dating someone with BPD, it was a little bit of both, an avoidant and an attachment style combined.
So RIGHT ON! TY!
I hate it when psychologists sometimes say not to “label”. The greatest relief of my bpd son is to know what he has. Less lonely and necessary for the right treatment. NPD is totally different than BPD, even if there may be a few similar characteristics.
I had a covert NPD classic husband for 15 years and I have a BPD adult son and I am a leader in NEABPD and the attachment figure.
every diagnosis is a "label"... so it's very strange when they say... not to do that.
It's a huge part of their profession... standard practice... labeling patients.
My mother would be over emotional. Then she would avoid. If you made her mad, she would cut communications until you apologized. We had to make a big deal out of her birthday and mother's day. She would reject my gifts but accept my sisters.
my mother - dtto. and now I am in the position to cut communication and not let her toxic behavior influence my life. what a surprise for her.
but noone is just one thing. she was actually always good ad supporting me and my sisters regarding sex harassment and sex violence (we experienced from men). never victim blaming us. that was good.
NPD: “Nah, I don’t need to go to therapy, I’m good”. Pretty much!!!! LMAO 🤣
This is exactly what my NPD DIL told me. She has destroyed our family.
@@tinakercher8768 yup, I totally get that, I am soooo sorry for what you’ve been through! It’s awful!
@@amandastein6247 we are all here because we have been hurt by one. I am sorry for your situation too.
@@tinakercher8768 😘💛 surviving
Then BPD: yes let me go to therapy, cause I'm messed up ... And as a bonus my therapist shall give me ALL the attention and if I manipulate my therapist to think I'm not doing good they will keep treating me and never leave me!!!!
My personal experience wth people with bpd and NPD is that BPD abuse is so much worse. But i think that's because i dont tolerate NPDs bullshit and they have a hard time feeding off of me/turning me into their supply so they just leave me alone. NPD is absolutely no joke and i have complete condolences for anyone on the other end of it. But what i mean is that they rarely target me as their victim because they know they can't and NPD people tend to not try too hard or waste their time if they feel like they cant turn you into supply. But BPD, yeah its exactly as you said, constant boundary violation. Just my person opinion, BPD is so much worse and does more damage
This clears up the mystery of my ex boyfriend. He mostly acted like a BPD person but had a narcissistic flavor too. But primarily, he had a deep seated fear of rejection and most of his behaviors revolved around that theme. He would take/steal things from me, but greed wasn't a primary motivator. It was more of a controlling thing (You don't need that anymore). He also never met a boundary he wouldn't trample over like a bulldozer. Dude was a dysregulated mess, and a closeted alcoholic to boot.
Sounds familiar!
I think my fiance has BPD traits--as well as his diagnosed TBI and PTSD. (I'm not sure if you would qualify for a diagnosis of mixed personality disorder.)
This can be very challenging. On the one hand he's brilliant, on the other hand in men BPD traits tend to manifest as anger and narcissistic Tendencies. This is true of him.
When he's not engaging in these things he's very loving and empathetic and insightful and a deep person, also playful and wonderfully creative.
But the TBI (traumatic brain injury), PTSD, and the Borderline traits, plus narcissistic tendencies make it very hard. Thankfully he responded to my urging him to get back on medication and find more relevant and effective therapy. But it's three steps forward then one alarming big step back. Were it not for the effective medication and the very great therapist he found, our relationship probably wouldn't have survived, which would have been tragic, because we love each other very dearly.
The therapy that's effective for BPD is called DBT. Can even work without meds.
How have things progressed in these two years? I also have tbi ptsd and adhd/autism and have had a very difficult ti.e connecting in a healthy way so I stopped trying. It's incredibly lonely but I don't get upset with relationships. I was asking to see if there was a positive outcome.
I was wondering too. My ex boyfriend was great until we got engaged, then all hos dysfunctional behavior began. He kept his true self hidden until he thought he had me trapped in a relationship.
Can you do a video on how BPD and NPD can come out more in aging?
I have to stay that this started slowly and then suddenly became very interesting.
Exactly. Some Children who are spoiled can't handle not being special in society. It's not always bad parenting or bad childhoods.
My mother has so many traits from both! I feel so confused 😕
I hope things are better these days 🙏🏻
Thank you so much.
"reciprocity in relationships" - this!
Yes Yes Yes! You get it exactly!😍🎉😁
I worked in Mental Health for 25 years and narcissist was never a diagnosis. Borderline and other personality disorders were. It was just in the past 2 years that I realized a family member maybe narcissistic. I wish I had been aware before this. Im pretty sure one of my supervisors would have been the first at that time.
I knew someone that was diagnosed with BPD with narcissistic tendencies. We referred to her as BPD squared.
Sounds like my ex BF.
My MIL
Sounds like me. 😢
@@BigHeartNoBS I am so sorry
Lol
Maybe kids should stop and realize that these psychological diagnosis have only come about in the last decade, so be compassionate about your parents because obviously they were affected too, or they wouldn't have these patterns. This is when I became more able to live, love, and be forgiving.. I would not have been able to move past my own diagnosis, unless I took into account that past generations did not have the same access to help that we have now. I think a lot of parents in the older generation get a bad reputation, when they didn't have the same access to help, and knowledge as we do now. You almost have to gain an understanding and forgiveness of the past before you can take all the generational lessons and try to take yourself in a different direction. But if you hold onto excuses from the past, you can't move forward.
Thank you for the video! I'm still trying to sort things out about my mom.. Could you tell - if BPD persons are organasing smear compains against their children?
Yes - that's covered in another video (about children od BPDs)
My baby’s mother was just diagnosed with bpd and she is on the side where the raging became so intense and insane that I snapped and I feel horrible but it’s sad because we are not together anymore and yet it’s still always about her and how I’m the horrible person!! She’s still abusive emotionally and I don’t want to take my children away from her but I’m scared of the future!! I feel damaged by our relationship! I couldn’t even be at work without her texting me and raging telling me I don’t love my family and that I’d rather be at work and her completely devaluing me where I remember one day I cleaned the entire house did the dishes and literally there was only 1 load of laundry in the washer that she put in there! When she got home she looked me dead in the face and said so wtf did you do all day and literally exploded and started raging because I didn’t do the laundry that I didn’t think to look inside the washer for! I saw some signs before we had children but was ignorant and really would try to comply and communicate with her after our first child and the pandemic it was like one flew over the cookoos nest because she would literally deny her actions to this day and it was like we were arguing over 2 different realities and she could be so evil with her words and yet be such a hypocrite and hold me to standards and boundaries that she doesn’t respect!! And even now with the diagnosis she still is in denial!! Idk man like I still love her but it’s insanity and I somehow always become the villain and with her it’s always a villain and victim mindset! If I talk about my feelings about something or point out a behavior somehow I’m always a victim instead of just apologizing or even communicate in a healthy way she just starts raging randomly and you never know what could be the reason
There is crossover. One can have both disorders or traits of both. Some don't quite fit in one label
I’m pretty sure my sister has both conditions. I finally went no contact a year ago and I have had so much more peace in my life. She keeps trying to create drama and getting other family members to contact me to “rescue” her from something or other that she got herself into, and so far I’ve been trying my best to protect myself.
Do you think your sister looks at it as though you are protecting yourself or that you are just trying to hurt her intentionally? Did you explain why you need to protect yourself? Perhaps it cones across as punishment for something...in which case it would be abusive to cut her off entirely with no explanation....
31 years with a BPD spouse with Bipolar and some Narc tendencies. Final rep. compulsion cycle six years ago pretty much totally devalued and discarded me. I am a wallet and servant to her. I finally have had enough and we are divorcing. I can no longer take the abuse and neglect. Of course it is all my fault and she continues to rewrite history to justify her behavior. Oh well, plenty more fish in the sea. Have to work on some healing first though.
I'm more confused after this talk... My mother.... has BPD, but has a strong sense of entitlement manipulation. I had to seperate from family for 25 years to be stable and secure. I came back because of my father who lives wit her. I can't explain her high levey of guilt envy and blame manipulation. I tried teaching her mindfulness, she is so good at manipulation that she now uses mindful quotes to make her sound better but is stuck in her running mind.
Thank you Dr.Kim Sage for the insightful videos & your sage advice ;p . Although this may well be a shot in the dark (as Dr.Debrowski & his conception seems to have withered into some obscurity as psycologists I've asked never heard of the early-to-mid 20th century Polish Psychologist). If you are aware of Kazimer Debrowski`s concept of "Postitive Disintegration" (considered for those who have heightened "Over Excitability" ) could you draw any parallels to such "Over Excitability" & BPD? & if so would such "Positive Disintegration" (seems validly attuned to finding something bigger than themselves, a cause, a craftsmanship, maybe "Dasein") , would such a method carry potential for one`s (who shows many traits of BPD) towards healthier personal growth? Or would you imagine is a concoction for disaster?
It's just what supply do they prefer.
Gosh, I don't think I'll ever know if my mom is BPD or NPD, she won't seek a therapist. Any advice for a daughter who has BPD traits due to this upbringing? Im not sure if I want a relationship with my mother at this rate, she's unbelievably toxic, emotionally selfish and manipulative. But I would like to learn more about self protection/preservation/rising beyond? its hard for me not to enmesh my identity with hers, and it scares me. Thank you!
I realize this is an old video, hope you are well. My mom was diagnosed BPD, histrionics and 7 other disorders when my parents split and she lost her parental rights. As an adult, when suffering a health collapse we reconnected. Since then, the time I am not in communication with her is always better than when I am. I honestly think my mom leans toward NPD more than BPD especially in consideration to her upbringing but I think she suffers both. When it comes to trauma, I think ending the cycle of abuse and stopping the trauma are key in the healing process. I’m seeking care for myself bc I’ve suffered so much from caring about a parent that isn’t capable of caring for me. Getting mental health care and support for yourself has to be the priority. If it feels safe and the therapist can help you navigate the relationship then I think maybe you can try but idk that it won’t just cause you more harm. I don’t know what it’s like to have a mom. Mine is nothing like other moms. There’s no sense of love from her, no sense of safety. I’ve had to care for her since I was a child and it’s not really fair to myself and family to do it any longer. The saddest part about my mother’s condition is the harm it causes all my siblings. To see them suffer from her hands is heartbreaking. So I hope that you can end any undue hardship your mom causes you and heal with self love.
What if, I know my mom has untreated and undiagnosed bpd, and she refuses to get proper treatment or a diagnosis. Like her idea of "well I'm going to therapy" is seeing a life coach or a work therapist once a month. It's not enough, it's not the same, right?
I identify more with BPD and I’m setting boundaries and built my confidence up these past few yrs but according to your description I’m NPD. Anyone of my friends will tell you, you’ve got me fuckd up with that 😂
Excellent explanation, thank you 😃🥰
What is my family uphold the NPD values and BPD values and I find myself without containment and often invalidated as being overly emotional and sensitove by my family and I exhibit BPD coping strategies? Why would I be more BPD when my family are more NPD?
The person in my life was raised by a malignant angry narc. This person has both covert narc and bpd signs. I'm wondering if covert narcissism is bpd? Or can both coexist?
I think I’m dating a BPD male at first I thought he was NPD but the more I look into it he doesn’t carry all the NPD symptoms narcissistic and worried about their image and he isn’t he is erratic and does things like BPD
My ex girlfriend from last year had pretty convincing borderline traits. I'm not 100% sure what her real issue was but that she was newly divorced then. Very emotionally touchy. Haven't seen her since and only recently started texting each other again. I'm just hoping she's healed some.
I hope she's healed too - divorce can be so much more devastating than we talk about - but also very possible to heal from! Take good care!
Careful, often these people operate in cycles. Repetitive cycles. Keep an eye out!
Oohhh good lord I'm a borderline woman and divorcing now the stress from ending relationships doesn't mix well with my symptoms it's like a Molotov cocktail
Update. We got back together again since I posted this. That is until last week. I had to end the relationship. Didn't want to but I had to. It got crazy and just didn't feel like she was managing her life or mental state in a constructive way.
@@Supertzar999 you made the right move. Now imagine marrying and having kids with her.
I truly think my ex’s mother is both bpd and npd. While my ex was definitely only bpd. She was diagnosed and her mother never diagnosed as anything. I’m not a doctor so who knows.
This is a bit upsetting to listen to as a bpd parent myself. This makes us all sound like we just don't really care about our kids 😕 I can assure you we aren't all like this 😢 I try so so so so hard not to pass on the trauma to my kids.
Dotn get me wrong I have been a nightmare in the past in relationships, including my current one (the father of my kids). & I do think I made alot of mistakes early on as a mum before I knew what was going on exactly but I was still aware there was an issue and tried really hard on my own with no diagnosis or support. But I've spent YEARS in & out of therapy working HARD to unlearn behaviours that come from harm LOTS of other people did to me! I'm always hearing how bad borderlines are and not the people that harm us so much we develop this way. 😢
It’s so good to hear somebody has that self-awareness and fights to NOT cause that trauma.
The BPD people in my life are not that kind of parents to their children, nor to anyone else in their lives that loves them.
As the daughter of a mom i highly suggest is BPD yet never will ask for a diagnosis, i can tell you that what i wanted to hear the most before having to cut ties, was her recognizing she wasn't stable. It wasn't to judge her value or anything. I just never heard her really apologize, it always was self victilization, or pushing the blame on me. What i needed, as a child, and now as a young adult, was hearing her "come out" to me, sincerely.
Now that i have the terms to vocalize it, i sincerely think i would have loved, and feeled so relieved, if she said "i know i have a problem, you can see it too, we've tried a few things, and it never worked. I am seeking help from a therapist, to learn more about it, about me, about us. We can learn about it together, to make arrangements. I have and will make mistakes. I sometimes won't be able to listen still, and will keep on making mistakes, but i want you to know it is not because of your existence or who/how you are. I do love you. And i want us to have a good relationship. I will keep on making mistakes, but work on it with the knowledge i get from help. Do you want to create a system to signal "stop/pause" at each other when needed ?"
Something like that.
Saying she knows there is a problem with her emotional regulation, that it is not the norm nor easy for both of us, but that we can learn about it and find ways to work it out, though it won't, obviously, be perfect instantly, nor ever. Being a responsible adult to summarize.
I always take educational videos with a grain of salt because it can never encapsulate all of our experiences. I believe you are doing everything you can to not pass on the trauma. This is wonderful. I am right there with you. I’ve been diagnosed BPD (quiet type) but have put so much into recovering for the last 20 plus years. It is my number one goal to not pass on the trauma and chaos I experienced as a young girl. I do feel she has a good grasp on these personality disorders. Many professionals don’t really get it. They know the checklist and signs but don’t really get it. To me it seems she does. BPD can present sooooo different in people that have it so I always remind myself of that. Yes there is a stigma and it can be hurtful. But I am an individual with a story who presents certain symptoms because of my story. It’s true I have it and BPD exists but I always get a little smile remembering diagnostic criteria was made up or created by people for insurance reasons. They did the best they could to round up the herd but it will never be perfect. There is no blood test for personality disorders. I feel we just adapted to the environment in order to survive and form attachment with is vital for a baby or children. ❤
Thank you all for your kind responses. I do usually like all of the other videos this lady does. I think it's just hard to hear sometimes how harmful our behaviour can be when it comes from being harmed ourselves and its not that we are heartless or uncaring. 💖💖
Can these traits morph or become more prominent as people age? My mom definitely parentified me and we were certainly enmeshed when she was younger. When she got divorced for 2nd time at 56, she basically fell apart forever. She is now 71 and is unrecognizable to her younger self. Total waif.
He does a lot of gaslighting and you can not tell him anything. He is a know it all.
Well Dr it matters because with borderline at least in my experience I feel borderline has really love and narcissistic does not have love 😢
I often say this too! - with NPD we don't tend to receive mirroring - where in BPD (given BPD tends to want to be in relationship) we receive more feelings of love- though it can be very complicated and feel off and on in many cases...
Great info. Thank you 🙏. I am struggling to figure out if my former boyfriend has NPD or BPD. It is all very confusing. We are still in communication and I am being very careful, but I know I should be in no contact and it’s hard.
It is so hard and in many cases, especially with BPD - I truly believe we "generally" have more engaged and loving experiences with them because they tend to want relationship -but struggle with the emotional and relational consistency piece. I think it's a lot harder to set and hold boundaries at times with those with BPD or BPD traits, and makes no contact so much harder if that is the path. Please have love and grace for yourself and take good care:)
@@DrKimSage thank you so much 🙏🙏
So... my mother is... interesting. Because I'm about 95% sure she is a covert narcissist... and she is honestly hitting almost all of the points on the narcissist scale... but she ALSO shows signs of BPD... mostly NPD, but with hints of BPD...
SOOOO.... my question is, can they be comorbid??
I have a borderline diagnosis and really am tired of all the judgement. Believe it or not, I have a heart and feelings. How is this channel helping any of us? Please do tell.
What a fortunate boy I was!
My mom BPD, dad NPD.
It is like a miracle I am not NPD nether bpd
It is usual some attraction between NPD and bpd?
Seems like it's a frequent combo.
How do you know you’re not ?
Do you have anything to help people who have these disorders themselves? It all seems to be focused on "diagnosing" others.
Welp here I was like which one is my mom??? And I guess she has both. It feels like she has more of the BPD but she definitely is a narcissist.
Often lots of overlap in pd's!
My mother scored both as well.......
so what do you do when your a borderline and your wife is a covert narcissist?! we are constantly going back and forth because of her invalidating and gaslighting its gotten so bad i had to start writing down our conversations/interactions because if i dont she will try to twist reality to fit her narrative xD
Yikes 😳
I'm in same situation just reverse the gender for each...it feels like a ride you can't get off of right? I think more normal people can walk away from a narc I can to an extent but I have this need to win them over which is impossible but I still do it 🤷
Obviously try to heal your BPD. As Dr.Kim states this is achievable, unlike the NPD of your partner
@@dickjohnson3241 well after a year of working with a therapist I dont have BPD that witch made me believe I had BPD LOL I can say I have learned much since I made that comment and now am divorced yet she is still controlling my life through our children and now the weight of the courts I can not express enough to anyone who is married to or involved with someone who is very narcissistic who cares if they have been diagnosed if you notice these traits RUN dont WALK and never look back
For the psychodynamics & FACTS see
Sam Vaknin!
👍🏻😁💖
Both
NPD:"Me, no I'm good I don't need therapy. Actually... I think you are the one that needs therapy!
Dr Kim Sage, could you do a video on BDP women and dating NPD men. The relationship dynamics?
I am just seeing this for some reason, but this is a great idea and I will add it to my list! Thank you!🙏🏻
Dr. Kim Sage I would appreciate this too! And another one about being born in this mix with BDP mother and NPD father would be amazing. ✨
I would appreciate this as well! Thank you!
I'm an adult child of a high control religious cult, where the church leaders and elders made the rules and took the place of my parents. We were threatened that we'd be abandoned by everyone including our families, and left alone, if we sinned or left the cult. I was taught I should l would die if God was angry at me. He would kill me. I was just a little girl, staring out the window waiting for the fire to fall from the sky where I'd be engulfed in flames. I lived in terror and had severe anxiety by 5 years old. I would shake and tremble at every thunder storm, thinking the end was coming.
My father, an alcoholic OCPD, wanted me to remain perfect, and act as he acted, right through to today. No one could do it like him, he thought. He made me listen to him explain the most annoying instructions of the stupidest things. It was like torture. I couldn't do anything without him reminding me I should do it better. One time months ago, he told me to "move your car over about 6 inches. It's not centered enough." When i looked at him and said, "Are you serious?" he knew I was being "rebellious" in his mind. He yelled at me with that threatening voice that was a clear warning shot that i better not "back talk." I'm almost 50 years old. This is the control he's always had over me and the fear he's used to control me.
My mother NPD, sister NPD, have both controlled me and my mother is aware I'm right now going thru a breakup after being with a Covert Narcissist. Her response? "I KNEW he would block you! You need to fight! You're never going to get better sitting there all upset!" When i thought i had cancer, she raged on me several times when I was severely depressed. She was furious that if my biopsy came out positive for cancer, I'd dare want to go to the best hospital, as it would be too far for her to drive, which was inconvenient at 45 minutes away. She said the 2 star hospital is "good enough." Her tantrums during that time gave me severe trauma when I was already feeling traumatized with fear.
I've been through several abusive relationships. One was domestic violence. Two alcoholic severe emotional abusers. And even early severe emotional abuse as a teen.
I've been through 6 therapists. I only just realized the diagnosis of my mom and dad and boyfriend, and now have to figure out myself. I feel sorry for whatever therapist sits in front of me. 6 already failed and most of them seemed to act like I'm too much to assess. The mental health arena in USA is a joke. I am better off on youtube watching legit therapists than the quacks I've sat in front of who had zero interest in even breaking down my issues. The therapy I'm in need of is so intense I have no choice but to start again as I now believe I'm CPTSD OCD NPD with BPD traits, or vice versa, give or take one or another. I feel like there's no end in sight an no hope for healing. I'm so confused and after feeling like I've been under complete mind control by the "Love of my life" the last 2 years, I'm an emotional disaster. The nervousness won't go away. I told him I believe he's Covert Narcissist and see all the signs. That's when I took 2 online tests to make sure I wasn't the problem (I was raging on him and assumed it was his gaslighting, but now believe I was trying to control him and this may be NPD traits.) This stuff is no joke. I'm in major suffering right now and had a life of trauma and honestly don't know how, or IF I'll get through it.
My dream would be to have 1 week with Jordan Peterson, so he could expedite the process and tell me that much faster what my problem really is. It's a shame that we can only dream of having a brilliant person help us, but know we will never have the chance.
A couple of tweaks here or there and I would have been the other. Both disorders are different siblings in the same psych family.
Can my mother be both? NPD and BPD?
So avoidant is the same narcissistic? My therapist told me that I rank high on avoidant but low on narcissistic. Is she wrong?
"Avoidant" is a Cluster C feature. Different group than Narcissism, and not related.
She's talking about "avoidant attachment style" in Narcissists, which is a different subject.
is it possible for a man to have BPD without a substance abuse or sucicide attempts or substance abuse?
I have a BPD Mom and Narcissist Father. Lucky me.
Same here 😂
Informative. Thank you. Just a constructive observation. You talk really really fast. Too fast to the point I wasn’t able to understand what you were saying and had to rewind constantly. It’s a lot of information and comparing two similar things back and forth. You spoke so fast I wasn’t sure what disorder you were referring to through the video, hence having to constantly rewind
I know and I am sorry! Actually, if you watch my current videos, I am improving! Lol but I actually talk about how that has been hard for me - even in a video I am posting this week. Perhaps I will re-do some of them at some point!
Just slow down your play back…. Theres a button for that.
The transcript for this video is very distorted.
Well, my dad is a full Narcissist and my mom is Borderline. That explains a lot.....
And my mom is now in full blown Alzheimer's. Her borderline is all over the place and my narcissistic father can't handle it because it's not about or caring for him....
It’s sad because this just sounds like how so many parents are taught to parent especially “back in the day”. Cry it out, don’t spoil and coddle (a literal INFANT), don’t pick them up when they cry, spank, not to mention behaviorist rewards/punishments strategies that were literally pushed by “experts”.
Yeah, really messed up
I feel like the better question is: is it BPD or Covert Narc?
I am saddened by the fact that my loved one and I can no longer be friends due to her toxity. She has expressed her desire to physically harm me if we don't share an opinion, and she gossips and creates lies about me to others. I love her, but I can't sacrifice my peace for this negativity. I don't know what her "diagnosis" might look like, but I have chosen to avoid her completely.
NPD could be called BPD with Grandiosity because it's the same dynamic, just more extreme - Look for Otto Kernberg for the best understanding and best solutions - he should be as well known as Freud or Jung
All you just said sounds like both with my recent ex. Unless there is something else that could cause all ive went through and witnessed
Love ur videos....Can we do fb chat i need ur guide !
Can someone be both?